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Why the February vote could be very bad for Labour

Written By: - Date published: 6:55 pm, January 7th, 2013 - 300 comments
Categories: david shearer, labour - Tags:

[Warning: post may contain "political pessimism" from "the outside left".]

In February, if my understanding is correct, and gods know I hate this kind of complex constitutional fluff, there will be a vote in the Labour caucus on Shearer’s leadership of the parliamentary Labour Party. If 40% or so don’t support him, it triggers a leadership vote among the party, with various weights of votes assigned to caucus, affiliates and members.

The obvious comparison is the Green Party, which has a – yes, probably pretty ceremonial – vote every year to re-endorse their parliamentary leaders. If you’re not a hardcore Green supporter, you probably don’t know it even happens, because it is a non-event and because the Greens just aren’t a rich target for Patrick Gower to badger a non-story out of.

Oh, fine, and also because there don’t appear to be horrific infighting factions within the Greens who are quite happy to use the media to screw each other over at a moment’s notice.

What you also don’t see, therefore, is a lot of Green Party members running around prior to their vote, insisting that if Metiria and Russel are re-endorsed, everyone who doesn’t like them has to go away and shut up and never say a bad thing about the party ever ever again.

David Shearer in a BBQ apron, captioned "After February, only I may host barbeques"

Which is what’s happening a lot at the moment, most noticeable to me through comments (and the odd post) at The Standard. Sometimes it’s worded a little more gently – “oh, hopefully after the February vote we can act like a unified party and get behind the leader” aka “shut the fuck up”, or “focus on the real issues” aka “shut the fuck up unless you’re bagging John Key.”

Sometimes it’s as blatant as

Unity is strength. Undermining the leadership is fatal.

Now where did I leave my V for Vendetta DVD?

Unfortunately for David Shearer and his fans, I just don’t see it happening, for two simple reasons:

1. If endorsed by caucus, Shearer still won’t magically evolve, Pokemon-like, from Captain Mumblefuck into the reincarnation of Winston Churchill

David Shearer in a BBQ apron, captioned "This isn't even my final form"

2. The membership may have very good reason to be fucked off about how some members of caucus have voted.

James Henderson summed it up nicely:

The problem with Labour’s reforms isn’t that they are too democratic, it’s that they’re not democratic enough. They’ve gone with a model where caucus is a gatekeeper and then over-powered in the actual vote. This will be used by the old guard to shield Shearer and themselves from the views of their own party. The Green co-leaders have no such protection, and it means they can never turn their backs on their members.

So no, actually, there is no moral imperative on Labour people (much less on us scary non-Labour-members with OPINIONS!!!!) to sit down and shut the fuck up between caucus leadership votes. If caucus [some might say, "if caucus once again"] goes against the will of the membership, the membership have every fucking right to “destabilise” the party, to “white-ant” the leader, because they’re the fucking membership.

If caucus [once again] makes a decision which is blatantly not in the best interests of the New Zealand leftwing, [once again] makes a decision which serves the interests of a self-centred faction within the Party, [once again] chooses a leader based on their own career security instead of providing a clear, strong left voice in NZ politics and forming the basis for a strong leftwing government which knows what it’s there to do, and if Shearer’s faction in caucus [once again] bully dissenters into silence with the threat of instant demotion …

Well, you can fuck right off if you think I’m going to shut up about that For The Sake Of The Party.

Labour does not deserve our respectful withdrawal of criticism if it’s going to shit on beneficiaries, if it’s going to refuse again and again to pose a clear alternative opposition to NACT, if it’s going to sacrifice its own heritage principles in order to keep safe-electorate seat-warmers occupied.

David Shearer does not deserve unity-at-gunpoint if he continues to mumblefuck around, continues to let National get away with murder, continues to act like 30% in the polls is something to celebrate, continues to squander one of his most talented MPs while letting Chris fucking Hipkins buy straight into National’s asset sales narrative.

So the February vote? Roll out your numbers again, David, but do not think that a token gesture of support, after you’ve clearly demonstrated how brutally you will treat even imaginary challengers, is going to keep you safe from nasty blog posts. The only fix for that – Clare Curran’s alleged lady-boner for outing critics notwithstanding – is to do your fucking job. With, like, at least a semblance of competence.

Related reading: Chris Trotter’s The Lazarus Option. I’m as surprised as you are, Comrade.

300 comments on “Why the February vote could be very bad for Labour”

  1. bomber 1

    Brilliant over view of what is happening QOT

    • seeker 1.1

      +1 Completely agree bomber. Thanks QOT.

    • Populuxe1 1.2

      + 1 Exquisite evisceration

      • Tom 1.2.1

        +1

        I don’t who you are, QOT, but I share your analysis and love your delivery. It is just that I’m not sure that it will translate into votes on election day. Where I live, the polling booths seemed deathly quiet last time. People need to be given a reason to get out of their houses and vote for change.

        Where have I heard that before ?

        • Rhinoviper 1.2.1.1

          They need to be confident that their vote counts and that there will be a change.

          There are an awful lot of people who are working but still can’t make ends meet and need benefits to help them and their families get by, and there are people on benefits who can’t get by but work part time when they can to top up their funds.

          I don’t know what the statistics are, but a lot of people are in the grey zone between beneficiary and full-time worker while Labour’s current policy, formulated by the comfortable suburban middle class baby-boomers think that there’s a sharp division between the two and Shearer’s focus groups have told him that he should denigrate beneficiary scum in opposition to noble tradesmen because that’s what they hear on Radio Live while real people in the real world say, “Ah fuck it and fuck you.”

          Here’s a lyric from The Who:

          Meet the new boss
          Same as the old boss

          We know it, we know it too well.

      • David H 1.2.2

        And the pound or two of salt rubbed into the evisceration just to make the eyes water a little.
        Excellent article QOT
        But will they listen?? Will they fuck!

  2. dancerwaitakere 2

    The incredible thing is that people within Labour often reply to any criticism with, ‘well don’t you want Labour to win’, along with ‘the Party is bigger than all of us’…

    The truth is, that there are some of us who are more loyal to our values than to a brand that has deteriorated significantly over a few decades. Instead of just wanting ‘Labour to win’, we actually want progressive values to win, whatever form that takes.

    The Party is never bigger than the values it is supposed to represent. If the party does not represent those values, then it deserves to die.

    Come 2014, I will be seriously looking at which party actually embodies the values I hold, instead of supporting a party out of habit.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.1

      +1

    • Rhinoviper 2.4

      Exactly. It never fails to amaze me (and provoke facepalms) that because it calls itself “Labour” it must be a workers’ party or a party for the disadvantaged, no matter what it really proclaims and – given the chance – practises. I can, in the style of Arnold Rimmer, declare myself to be Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where’s My Thribble, but would saying “I am Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where’s My Thribble” make me Rameses Niblick the Third Kerplunk Kerplunk Whoops Where’s My Thribble? No, in case you’re wondering. If I were to say that, and to repeat it, then I would be fitted for a very nice jacket with wraparound sleeves that tie in the back and be invited to inhabit a very nice room with soft padded walls.

      Likewise, if a cabal of amoral narcissistic troughers were to proclaim that they were the “Labour Party”, I’d be rather sceptical and perhaps a wee bit reluctant to give them my vote. I might even be sceptical if they said that they understand my plight because they too once had to deal with a substandard espresso and their son or daughter has complained that they have to get by with a hopelessly unfashionable hairstyle because they aren’t sending enough money.

      Ah, ranting. It’s such fun, and a really effective way of avoiding the work I should be doing.

      • Mary 2.4.1

        When asked on one of the on-line open question sessions about Labour’s position on welfare Shearer replied “Labour’s a party for workers”. While I’d like to believe this still meant looking after those who for what ever reason can’t participate in the wonderful world of work, Shearer deliberately said “Labour’s a party for workers” to mark the difference between workers on the one hand, and the unemployed/beneficiaries/underclass on the other. Not surprising, of course, but is yet another reminder of how Labour has changed and why “it deserves to die”.

        • Rhinoviper 2.4.1.1

          Labour’s kinda like Hollywood now. “Hey, I’ve got a great story to tell!” says the writer. “Yeah,” says the producer, “but how’s it gonna sell to teenage boys in the midwest? It’s gotta have tits, it’s gotta have car chases, it’s gotta have explosions.”

          So you get Tom Cruise and Jack Reacher, you get Mission Riduculous XIV… with tits, and more tits, and explosions. And car chases. With tits and explosions.

          And lots and lots of people telling you what a hardass the hero is. Vladimir Putin knows that, since he’s always photographed with his shirt off and doing something exciting.

          Because that’s what the market research says you want.

          What you really need? No, you don’t know what you need. We tell you what you want. Wait for Shearer: Mission Mango

          Now doesn’t that have a ring to it? “Mission Mango”? Alliteration you see. We even have an abbreviation that looks good on the posters: S:MM. Looks cool, that sinuous “S” and the stark double-M and that risqué Fifty Shades of Grey hint with the “S” and “M” – wait till the graphic designers get their hands on it, and wait till we photoshop the massive pecs and six-pack on him!

          You’ll love it.

          Or else.

  3. Colonial Viper 3

    QoT: OMFG. (G for Goddess btw).

    • QoTViper 3.1

      Merci beaucoup.

      • Rogue Trooper 3.1.1

        Unleash the Hounds…

        It’s astounding, Time is fleeting
        Madness takes it’s toll
        Drink ing those moments when

        It’s just a jump to the left

        You bring your knees in tight
        But it’s the pelvic thrusts
        That really drive you insa a a a ane

        Lets do the time-warp again
        Let’s do the time warp again

        In another dimension
        with Voyeuristic intention
        Well secluded, We see all
        :)
        (keep on Trucking)

  4. Jesus Wept 4

    Stunning Qot. Thank you.
    It all sounds like, ‘Unity is strength’ at the behest of an insulated cabal – don’t they need a democratic display of support?
    As Patrick Kavagnah said, ‘true comedy is tragedy’.

  5. Bill 5

    was that the sound of David’s sausage dropping on the deck….?

  6. Andre 6

    Maybe take an aspirin and put several dollars in the swear jar. QOT its a very hot day!

  7. karol 7

    I agree that a caucus vote for Shearer, and not letting it go for a membership vote, will not stop the criticism from the left. There’ll continue to be criticism from LP members and from other lefties. Shearer is just not cutting it.

  8. Neoleftie 8

    I once asked a labour cabinet minister does labour have a long term plan. He laughed for way too long and states that the cant even plan a BBQ, then I asked do we have a p,an to be reflected in 2008.
    Sleep walk my son, we wait for the election cycle and pray.
    The cabal with the current H3 power block are following the dogmatic electioneering methodology of sleep walking into power or not maybe…who know as they have gone quiet.
    What I hope to not see is the forming left coalition lose due to a inward focused labour caucus vs its members.
    I say victory in 2014 at all costs and a the expense of a membership revolt so be it…but bring us poor suffering new zealanders a long awaited saviour from the left.
    Shearer, Robertson or cunliffe I don’t care as long as we win in 2014.

  9. Oscar 9

    When you have double speak like Trevor Mallard said he had no intention of stepping down this term and would decide over the 2012 summer whether to stand again. going on… Well, we’re now well into the 2013 summer…

    So a whole year later and still no murmur on whether the duck is out. I say he should just duck off.

    He’s part of the problem. Him and the rest of the 80s clicks.

    • David H 9.1

      Yeah with Goff and King just want to get their snouts back in the trough. Labour needs NEW blood not these fucking dinosaurs. Maybe a e-mail campaign telling them to Quit, may get through their thick heads they are out of date.

  10. Tim 10

    Admittedly, after I undertook not to make further comment on this site after apparently offending the excellent Karol (who took responsibility for the possible offense to another person), I am now doing so. Was it someone Smith or some other person deemed important – I dunno – I’m useless with names – but I did think if this person was in politics and might so easily be offended, AND if the same comment had be directed at some very ugly Whaleoil – I doubt the concern would have been forthcoming. Anyway – it was forthcoming from someone I respect, but I’m not prepared to apologise to an obvious pratt for some comment I MAY have made that pointed out he/she was and IS a pratt
    I am now commenting because, as I said at the time – I’d read with amusement, edification and otherwise the comments that have come to pass on various issues.
    Apparently though, I offended someone like Mike Smith (not sure that I did – but potentially I did) and my remarks were fairly tame. IT was in a similar vein though to a KhandallahMan and a Te Reo Putake.
    Anyway all that aside….I watched the KhandallahMan . v. the TRP (and wondered whether the TRP had ever worked for TPK).
    More importantly, I watch a party I’ve supported all my life and was once a member of, tear itself apart.
    Most on here know why it seems (except from the once-were-radicals-now-in-comfort-“I paid me dues and done me time in OZ CLAIRS”; to pathetic little insipid Hipkisses; to Mallards that lay down with tormented Catholic Guuuurls attiring themselves in business suits made from couch upholstery; to………apparently the longest of long time friends from academia and a residence known as Cuppa Tea St. (Hilary – wake the fuck up if you’re STILL forever faithful – this is a party that’s seriously dysfunctional: Once hijacked by the neo-libs, and still with an element that can’t seem to rid itself of the now proven failure – WHAT DOES THAT SAY exactly?, and WHY the difficulty in its comptrollers failing to see? ) Looks…….walks…….waddles.

    As a former Systems Programmer, then (after mid-life crisis and neo-liberal interventions of various kinds) a student and tutor in Sociology and Media Studies, I once encountered a Curran
    outside a VicUni Campus – what I realise now is a concern for PSB based on “what’s in it for my futire” rather than from any perspective of traditional Labour Party Values.
    Ditto Dunedin Railway Workshops.
    Ditto pretty much anything else.
    Here is a woman that thinks her beliefs pretty much fit with emerging disatisfaction – and she bloodywell intends playing those cards.
    I support the moves she makes, BUT after her various displays, ONE SERIOUSLY has to question her motives.
    The same goes true of a Hipkins (one I used to think was a possibility RIGHT UP until he outed himself as an egotistical wannabe Labour ‘elite’ living in the shadow of the underpriviledged who he thinks will gain him his legitimacy). Sorry Chris – IF they can be bothered to vote – they’re actually smarter than that – and you’re not ACTUALLY that beautiful.
    Then there’s a bovver boy – actually the cnut is rather insecure – which is why I imagine a Catholic Guurl was attracted.
    Please…….let’s not get into Robertsons or Paul Henry and (whatshername??? ah King yea) protoge’s that turned bad.

    THIS LABOUR PARTY is actually seriously dysfunctional. The Gnats are actually worse – but they seem to be able to keep their dirty linen in house better.

    My recommendation is for any serious Labour supporter who values its traditions:
    ENROL as a member – boost its membership to unknown heights.

    THEN if the hijackers persist (which I’ve no doubt they will), DO NOT VOTE for them. INSTEAD – collectively vote Green (or even Mana). FOrums such as this should decide

    • karol 10.1

      Hi Tim. Good to see you commenting again. It was a small offense. Yes, I think the Labour caucus has become dysfunctional, but the LP membership seems to have their shit together more. And I think the Nats probably are worse.

      Anyway, I think the LP membership will be the ones to take the party to a better place.

      • asd 10.1.1

        How can democracy within the Labour Party be extended? Do the Greens just do 1 vote per member/MP/caucus membe,r with no prefigured percentages accorded to the category they are voting from?
        If that’s the case, then we should vote to get the system changed, and then ‘we’ as ‘members’ can control policy totally and not get high-jacked by the neo-liberals in disguise ie Shearer et al.

      • Tim 10.1.2

        Thanks Karol. Still not voting for Labour though – and nor is an extended whanau of up to 25. NOT until they COMPLETELY and UTTERLY disavow? themselves of any sort of neo-liberal agenda – be it free-markets that aren’t, 3rd Ways, 4th Reichs, MP’s (like Hipkins) that think they’re SO frikken beautiful and are in with an in-crowd – paid their dues….ALL that crap.
        They insult the intelligence of their voters.
        As I said previously, IF Labour Party supporters want to send a message, they’ll sign up as members……….THEN vote GREEN or MANA.
        This is especially true in certain electorates – the likes of Hipkins and Currans. Give GREENS both electorate and party.
        Politics and democracy is a project after all. IF it means suffering another 3 years led by total pillocks – so be it.
        Elsewhere, others have suffered worse and continue to do so.

        NO WAY though that I can vote for a Labour Party in it’s current form – a decision not taken lightly…..especially after decades of doing so AND mindfull of certain predecessors that would now be rolling in their graves.

        Me me me I I I I I me me me me me me I I I I I !!!!!!!!!!

    • The Al1en 10.2

      Hello Tim.
      If you’re the Tim from the now dead red alert site, thanks for the pointer to post here.

      “My recommendation is for any serious Labour supporter who values its traditions:
      ENROL as a member – boost its membership to unknown heights.

      THEN if the hijackers persist (which I’ve no doubt they will), DO NOT VOTE for them. INSTEAD – collectively vote Green (or even Mana). FOrums such as this should decide”

      I say, save the minimum membership fee and just decide to vote Green/Mana
      Buy $15 of tinned goods at slack ‘n slave, take it to the sally army, and do two good deeds for the price of none.

      Peace, Bruv.

      • Olwyn 10.2.1

        I agree with Tim. Back in the Douglas days, people left the party in outrage and in droves. This time around people should join up in droves and exert pressure on them. Think of Roosevelt at the time of the New Deal saying “You make me do it.” It is much easier for MPs to hold fast to Labour values when a large number of committed members insist that they do. You can trade off a few people who can’t force the issue, but you cannot trade off a lot of people who can.

      • Populuxe1 10.2.2

        So basically your advice is, if you have an annoying head cold the best solution is to drink a gallon of Paraquat.

        • Olwyn 10.2.2.1

          Not at all. What I mean is that if the left and centre left of the Labour Party numbered enough to make a force to be reckoned with, then this would have to be taken into account in any wheeling and dealing done by the caucus. Back in the day, Labour was backed by strong unions, and hence had something to take to the bargaining table. Not any more, but maybe this deficit can be made up by large numbers of engaged people. Look at how they are now; they have actual conversations with Hooton, and patronise us. They would not do so if we were numerous enough to give them pause.

  11. AmaKiwi 11

    To David Shearer:

    In Dec. 2011 you and David Cunliffe publicly debated to demonstrate which of you had the best chance of beating National. You came in second.

    In one month you can take on all challengers in a primary contest to prove you are now the best MP to beat National. If you win the primary, I will support you.

    If you avoid the primary, the country will know you are a coward.

  12. Welcome back CV, happy new year to all.
    QoT: a great read, it fired up the passion within and i have this to say.
    The time is now,the need is great,the Labour Party is worth fighting for.
    Curen’s pugnacious actions towards those who want to speak up illustrates just how
    far into the gutter ‘our’ Labour Party has gone, i will not be silenced, i will not
    be afraid to have my thoughts aired and if need be i will out myself and i will stand
    alongside those who can see the destruction that is happening to ‘our’ party, bought
    on by a dictatorial few inside caucus.
    Threatening is never becomming and is even less so when it is comming from those in positions
    of political power who see a need to dictate to the masses.
    800.000 did not bother to vote in the last election,that speaks volumes about the people who
    feel disengaged and have become apathetic with NZ politics.
    A new year, a new beginning, a great time for Shearer and caucus to play the game and
    drop the dictatorship ball and announce a leadership vote in the interest of the Labour
    Party as a whole.
    Dreams are free,aren’t they ?

  13. pollywog 13

    Shot Queeny !!!

    • Olwyn 13.1

      Woohoo! Colonial Viper has emerged from purgatory, and now Pollywog is back as well.

      A great, straight-shooting post QOT – right on target.

    • Ennui in Requiem 13.2

      Hi Polly, nice to see you here. Have not yet been your way to check out the tales of voyaging the great ocean…read the blogs and was awe struck. Being in Purgatory has slowed Mr B down slightly. Happy New Year etc.

  14. “Unity is strength. Undermining the leadership is fatal.”
    “Now where did I leave my V for Vendetta DVD?”

    Underneath my anti poverty double album Human (R)evolution?

    ‘Captain Mumblefuck”

    I’m liking where you’re going with this.

    “Labour does not deserve our respectful withdrawal of criticism if it’s going to shit on beneficiaries, if it’s going to refuse again and again to pose a clear alternative opposition to NACT, if it’s going to sacrifice its own heritage principles in order to keep safe-electorate seat-warmers occupied.”

    I could have only written that with spelling mistakes and more swear words.

    “do your fucking job. With, like, at least a semblance of competence.”

    Or just piss off and let the left win the most important general election in NZ history.

    • Rhinoviper 14.1

      do your fucking job. With, like, at least a semblance of competence.

      Exactafuckingmundo. There’s hope for some of them, except for Chippy, Ducky, Gaffe et al. I don’t expect them to do their jobs at all – I’ve given up hope long ago. If I was Goldfinger, I’d say that I expected them to die, but what’s dead already can’t die (and Game of Thrones references don’t apply in this case)… so what’s to be done?

      Well, here’s a phrase that will serve them well: “Do you want fries with that?” They should repeat it until they have it fixed permanently in their memories.

      I would really, really love to walk into a McShit to see Ducky ask me if I want my order supersized. That would teach him a valuable lesson about “Labour’s” REAL constituents and what they have to face day by day.

  15. Saarbo 15

    100% agree QoT.

    The “elite” little group that control the Labour Party need to take note: If they dont then I can see Labour losing more support. The problem is that this “elite” group are obsessed with walking into power in 2014 instead of thinking about what the Labour party stands for and where Labour and New Zealand need to be in 20 years time.

    The “elite” little group are looking after THEMSELVES, the antithesis of the Labour Party.

    If this “elite” group continue to control the Labour Party then in 20 years Labour is gone.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      20 years? That’s very generous. In 8 years Labour could be smaller than the Greens in parliament.

      • The Al1en 15.1.1

        Much smaller if the Greens play their cards right.

      • Saarbo 15.1.2

        Yep CV, you are probably right. 20 years before Labour is gone completely. The Labour Party has the brand to hold on for 20 odd years…but if significant changes are not made in February I would suggest that the Labour/Greens ratio is going to change significantly in the 2014 election also.

  16. Rhinoviper 16

    Wow.

    In synopsis: “What, you expect us to STFU? Why, exactly?”

    (Also, suggestion for alternative title and content: “Why no vote in February could be disastrous for Labour”… but that’s another story)

  17. McFlock 17

    Perfect example of how the debate has become polarised to the extremes. “Mumblefuck” on one side vs Cunliffe as Richard III.

    If the term “Captain Mumblefuck” doesn’t (in it’s own sweet if little way) help nact get term three, nothing will. Constructive criticism, on the other hand, gets tarred with the same brush.

    Knock 50% off the adrenaline for each side, and we probably have what’s closer to the truth.

    Yes, Curran should be kicked from the list (seat candidacy is up to LEC) for her actions claimed here re:CV. But Shearer’s not as bad as all that, either.

    • karol 17.1

      I don’t think Team Shearer and supporters get just how deep the dissatisfaction with Shearer’s leadership goes. I see it surfacing on Open Mike regularly, and on comments elsewhere. It’s based in a dissatisfaction that’s been growing for a couple of decades at least. So it’s pretty deep. The way the world is now, a choice between National version of “neoliberal” and Labour’s “neoliberal” appeasement, is not much of a choice.

      The idea of working hard to get rid of the Shonkey one, only to have it replaced by Shearer, is … well, not much of an incentive to participate politically. Even though I will be supporting Greens/Mana rather than a Shearer led Labour, if the NAct government goes down, we still end up with Shearer as PM. It’s a pretty depressing scenario.

      • McFlock 17.1.1

        Two points:

        A) I don’t think Open Mike works as a proportionate reflection of how Labour members (or non) care deeply (or not) about the different labour leadership candidates;

        B) I see Cunliffe and Shearer being light years closer together than Labour under Shearer is with Key. But then I also see how polarising the debate into a battle between socialism and (to quote chuck norris supporting Romney) “a thousand years of darkness” helps Cunliffe’s supporters.

      • tc 17.1.2

        ‘I don’t think Team Shearer and supporters get just how deep the dissatisfaction with them goes.’

        I think they know and don’t care as they’re convinced they know best, after all Karol it’s all about them

      • Wayne 17.1.3

        This is a pretty stance post. Most commenters here say they vote Green or Mana but spend all their time attacking Labour’s leadership. Not suprisingly the Labour caucus will ignore the agitation, along with Chris Trotter, who after all was active in establishing New Labour. But it is rather odd for the rest of us. Why not just build the Party you actually support instead of undermining your potential partners.

        • Colonial Weka 17.1.3.1

          “Most commenters here say they vote Green or Mana but spend all their time attacking Labour’s leadership.”

          Except all the commenters who vote Labour and are considering shifting their vote to Green or Mana :roll:

        • lprent 17.1.3.2

          Actually I suspect that many are like me. I really don’t care much about the leadership except as a symptom. The Labour caucus and it’s opaque decision making processes (the leadership was just another one of those) is the real problem. The Labour caucus in my view has been steadily getting unresponsive, beltway obsessed, and as piss poor as the National one has been for decades, and probably for much the same reasons.

          Part of that can be laid at the feet of the post-Douglas cold-war inside caucus that went to making the party a rubber stamp. But in the last decade or so most of it in my view seems to be directly as a result of the caucus getting more and more beltway orientated. This orientation especially shows up in the list selection process, leadership, and ground level campaigning systems. Consequently the ability of Labour to actually do well in elections has been steadily diminishing because many people find the ivory tower politicians less and less relevant to what they’re facing every day.

          There has been a clear trend of members spalling and fragmenting off the party as it becomes more a place inhabited by wannabe politicians than members. There is really nothing for members to do that is relevant if they don’t want to be a politician.

          Why not just build the Party you actually support instead of undermining your potential partners.

          In my view and that of many other active members, the caucus have been actively preventing members from getting the required reforms to make a party relevant to members. They seem to find an active membership rather unsettling. It is a lot easier to change the organisation of an existing party than it is to build a brand new one.

          If that doesn’t work, then I’d probably take my efforts and expertise to follow my party vote to a different party that is more responsive – probably the Greens.

          And you have to remember that I’m usually considered to be well to the right of most inside the party. It isn’t even a question of the left-right spectrum. It is simply that I’m getting steadily less trusting of the competence of the systematically dysfunctional Labour caucus.

          • Anne 17.1.3.2.1

            …in the last decade or so most of it in my view seems to be directly as a result of the caucus getting more and more beltway orientated. This orientation especially shows up in the list selection process, leadership, and ground level campaigning systems.

            And what better example of the disconnected beltway mentality do we have than the bill-boards at the last election when the experts left the leader’s face off said boards and also forgot to remind voters to party vote Labour. I’ll never forget staring at the first bill-board I saw (there were some golden eggs in a nest and that was about all) and thinking… I must be witnessing a clever campaign strategy that would eventually crystallise into a masterstroke performance which would grab the attention of the voters like never before. It eventually dawned on me it was nothing more than… some golden eggs in a nest.

            And a Conference observation:

            Once upon a time MPs used to spend a Labour Conference hanging out with their electorate delegates. Tables in rows were set up with each electorate’s name clearly visible so that delegates at least knew which electorate people were representing. In most cases the MP would remain sitting with their delegates unless required on stage. (I realise under MMP that it’s a little different, but list MPS have ‘buddy’ electorates so there is no reason why they couldn’t spend the time with them.)

            So, what was the advantage of such a system? The MPs understood where their delegates were coming from and vice-versa. Developments as they happened were discussed and decisions were made together. There was no disconnect… indeed the opposite. What happens now? Well there are, in the main, two distinct groups:

            a) The MPs who – with a few exceptions – seem to stick together like glue.

            b) The rest of us who wander around or sit around between work sessions waiting for something to happen. If you even manage to find your MP or buddy MP there’s not much chance of a nice cuppa and a good chat.

            There wasn’t a better example of this scenario than when the leadership remits were being debated and voted on. Delegates sat on chairs in the body of the venue while the MPs (with a few notable exceptions) stood grouped together at the back of the venue.

            Is it any wonder there was/is a disconnect between so many members and the Parliamentary team.

      • Dr Terry 17.1.4

        A chronically depressing scenario, even more so if we do not see Cunliffe’s great talents put to best possible use (otherwise, surely, he will leave for where he is wanted).

    • Rhinoviper 17.2

      Constructive criticism, on the other hand, gets tarred with the same brush.

      Said of Arthur “Bomber” Harris in WWII, “He confuses advice for interference, criticism for sabotage and evidence for propaganda.” Harris you can blame for the war crime of the Dresden Firestorm and other atrocities (FYI, see Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse Five )

      Shearer’s a lesser criminal by far of course, but he as big an idiot. I sometimes run counterfactuals in my mind about the most idiotic statements by various politicos, the usual being “Well, would you expect them to say the opposite?” That’s all well and dandy, until I realise that when the obvious answer is “No”, that’s still no justification for what is actually done. Sure, in his own interest, Captain Mumblefuck “should” assert his dominance over potential rivals… but if “asserting dominance” means suppressing everyone who could do anything at all well (“everyone” includes – per a previous thread – sacks of potatoes, sacks of horseshit or a trio of chickens), then, no, pretending that there are only two alternatives is just fucking dumb. Mumblefucks just ensured that the usual troughers are as secure in their seats at Bellamy’s as ever.

      Congratulations Captain Mumblefuck. You’ve won the battle – your focus groups and advisors and consultants will be so proud of you and will be drinking pints of testosterone in celebration… but you could lose the war because of that – and in any case, you’ve sold what semblance of a soul you kept in a box in the attic anyway.

      So FUCK YOU and FUCK OFF.

      • Rhinoviper 17.2.1

        Italics fail…

        • McFlock 17.2.1.1

          Actually, I thought the comparison with Harris was a bit off, too.

          • Rhinoviper 17.2.1.1.1

            All comparisons are odious. The problem I have with invoking Godwin (He’s just like Hitler!) for example, is that it really serves to shut down debate, so yes, I will agree that Shearer is not as awful as Harris, but then, he does show the same idiocy as Harris, but thankfully without the same opportunity to wreak harm. I could compare him with Reginald Scribbs, junior assistant undersecretary in the British Department of Ministerial Affairs who once said something mean-spirited and stupid, but where would the rhetorical effect be then?

            Rhetorical effects aside, I can’t believe that certain people are evil in a way that means that they will commit atrocities that no-one else will commit, ever. Rather, I believe that everyone could, if manipulated in a certain way – see Stanley Milgram’s (in)famous experiments on obedience.

            However, that’s another story. The short version is that yes, the magnitude of someone’s evil may not be the same, but the essence might well be. Pray that certain individuals never get the opportunity, incentive and license.

            I don’t believe that Shearer’s a potential mass murderer any more than anyone else is… but then I’ve seen that in his creepily enthusiastic endorsement of mercenaries and his decision that it’s politically expedient to demonise the most vulnerable of society that he is a man prone to find slippery slopes.

            • McFlock 17.2.1.1.1.1

              “demonise the most vulnerable”? Tell me you aren’t referring to the roof painter.

              One good line that he didn’t completely think through, and he never hears the end of it. Sounds like the “you screw ONE goat…” joke.

              And the only alternatives to mercenaries that anyone has come up here, as far as I’ve seen, is to either have a magical change in international politics, or just let the genocide happen. The first isn’t likely, and imo mercenaries are preferable to the second.

              And if Shearer’s Harris, who is Key?

              • Rhinoviper

                “demonise the most vulnerable”? Tell me you aren’t referring to the roof painter.

                Actually I am, and why not?

                One good line that he didn’t completely think through

                Don’t be naive. That was a scripted speech. Not one single comma wasn’t scripted, reviewed and rehearsed. Shearer as we well know is as capable of off-the-cuff witticisms as snails are capable of formulating theories in quantum physics.

                “Let them eat brioche” was also a seemingly light comment, but it was tellingly symptomatic of Marie Antoinette’s callousness… but in Shearer’s case it was scripted and rehearsed – it was calculated, so I will take it very seriously.

                I’ve been a sickness beneficiary and people I know and respect are now. I know their circumstances and Shearer’s craven demagoguery disgusts me at a personal level – because it was deliberate misrepresentation of the plight of real people in real difficulty.

                If Shearer were to have the guts to speak to me personally, the first thing I would ask him is “So, you accused me of rorting and bludging and you want my vote. Why – and why?” I’d love to hear his answer.

                And the only alternatives to mercenaries…

                And what paves the road to Hell?

                And if Shearer’s Harris, who is Key?

                OK, so he’s not Key. Is that a reason to support him, simply because he is not Key?

                • McFlock

                  lol, now shearer’s Marie Antoinette.
                  Demagoguery? It’s the lack of perspective that cheapens your criticisms.

                  Good intentions allegedly pave the road to hell, but I think that one might provide some base compaction by watching a genocide and deciding to do nothing.

                  And yes. Is he better than key? Lesser of two evils, and all that.

                  • Rhinoviper

                    Ah, the mighty cudgel of “lol”!

                    You’re – again – using “not as bad as” to imply “not bad”. That’s disingenuous.

                    So Shearer is not as bad as Arthur Harris, not as bad as Marie Antoinette, not as bad as Hitler, Stalin or Justin Bieber. However, that does not make him good or any criticism of him invalid, so your “lol” is pointless.

                    Good intentions allegedly pave the road to hell

                    Read a bit of history and you might want to drop the “allegedly”.

                    provide some base compaction

                    Sorry, I am monolingual and can only understand English.

                    And yes. Is he better than key? Lesser of two evils, and all that.

                    Bah. Lesser is for wimps. I’m voting for the greater evil: Cthulhu 2014!

                    Seriously, “lesser evil” is again an example of the slippery slope – “Well, he’s not as bad as X… OK, that was bad, but it was not as bad as Y… yeah, that was pretty vile, but If the other lot had been in power, they would have done Z.” And so on, inventing new letters of the alphabet, new compromises as you go. Bugger that.

                    • McFlock

                      Comparisons with the above do not count as “criticisms”. They are simply irrelevant appeals to emotion. Hence my response being an expression of emotion.

                      I’m not a road engineer, but wanted something better than “dirt and pebbly shit that you jump up and down on before bunging on the top layer of tar or flagstones and stuff”. Forgive me.

                      Basically, after feb, there are two alternatives if you don’t like the labour leader: keep comparing the labour with whomever the fuck and help national, or provide non-monomaniacal, rational and fair criticism (which won’t help national, but might even help you get the sort of Labour party you want).

                      God forbid you wait a freaking month before making absurd comparisons, but do whatever the fuck you want.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      irrelevant

                      I was told that by some party hack a couple of years ago on Red Alert when I pointed out that they weren’t doing well at gaining votes. “Maybe you’re not the kind of person we’re aiming at.” Then they lost the election.

                      Apparently hundreds of thousands of people deemed Labour “irrelevant” and stayed at home, so I think that being being one of those high-class boutique parties that appeals to the discerning minority of voters isn’t exactly clever. The fact is that there are hundreds of thousands of voters who think that Labour is irrelevant to them because it’s decided that they are irrelevant.

                      Perhaps the MPs, candidates and their apologists should get off their high horses, hold their noses to ward of the stench of the unwashed and start finding out what would make them relevant?

                      Hence my response being an expression of emotion.

                      Now why don’t I find that plausible? If that was sincere, then you’ve let me define the terms of the argument. Thank you.

                      I’m not a road engineer, but

                      Well that was… obscure. Advice: when using a metaphor or simile, use one that someone other than the voice in your head will understand.

                      Basically, after feb, there are two alternatives if you don’t like the labour leader

                      Nonsense, unless you mean Green or Mana.

                      “You’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” is not going to work as rhetoric. Labour in general and Shearer in particular do not “own” my vote and the rhetoric of emotional blackmail along the lines of “Vote Labour – we’re not as bad as Cthulhu.” isn’t exactly appealing and “Vote Labour – or Key will eat this kitten and you’ll be helping him!” is simply laughable.

                      Shearer may say “L’Etat, c’est moi”, but he is not Labour and Labour is not ABC. Labour is a set of values and I’ll vote for those values if I choose to do so, not an empty logo and bullying rhetoric.

                      God forbid you wait a freaking month…

                      Yeah, I know: STFU. I’ve heard it before. Sorry, I’m not that amenable to instruction. You know, that last fucking sentence is not exactly fucking fuckety rational, fuck it. In fact, it’s rather petulant.

                    • Matthew Hooton

                      We learn from this exchange that Rhinoviper would prefer to stand by and watch a Rwandan-style massacre than hire private security firms on the grounds that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. Wow. That is an evil thing to say. In other words, allow hell on earth to actually occur to maintain an ideological position, no doubt for the greater good. Is it any wonder that the Labour hierarchy is unimpressed with some of the commentators here. Why not just sign up for Mana or the Greens, rhino mate, and stop the pretence there is a place for you in a mainstream party?

                    • Rhinoviper

                      In other words

                      And we learn from the paid spin doctor and renowned gynaecologist Hooton that again he likes distorting and misrepresenting other’s views. There’s a surprise. I didn’t say that I’d prefer a massacre, so don’t put words in my mouth you lying shit.

                      Perhaps you have an absolutely hilarious dead baby joke to strengthen your argument? That would be as honest and as pertinent.

                      Ah, “private security firms” sounds so much better than “mercenaries” doesn’t it? What does concern me is Shearer’s blithe disregard for what these “private security firms” like Blackwater have done away from his spreadsheets in the real world while governments – one of which he wants to lead – washed their hands.

                      Why not just sign up for Mana or the Greens, rhino mate, and stop the pretence there is a place for you in a mainstream party?

                      Oh, a critic of Labour is marginal, not mainstream, not allowed in the treehouse. Well well, what a surprise.

                      Now excuse me, there’s a kitten that I want to eat.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Here’s a gem from Hooton on Labour and democracy:

                      “After two years in opposition, Labour and its friends appear to remain ignorant of basic democratic principles. For that reason they deserve to be crushed by Mr Key and his allies in November.”

                      http://blog.labour.org.nz/tag/matthew-hooton/

                      Then there’s his regular attendance at the Marlborough Sounds Symposiums that turned into platforms for racism and Anders Brevik fan-fests.

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/5349226/Mass-killer-Anders-Behring-Breiviks-NZ-link

                      Now of course Hooton will downplay that, try to establish some distance, call it unfair and so forth, but then he calls me “evil” on even thinner connections.

                      Hypocrite.

                    • McFlock

                      “You’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” is not going to work as rhetoric. Labour in general and Shearer in particular do not “own” my vote and the rhetoric of emotional blackmail along the lines of “Vote Labour – we’re not as bad as Cthulhu.” isn’t exactly appealing and “Vote Labour – or Key will eat this kitten and you’ll be helping him!” is simply laughable.

                      Didn’t say “vote labour”.
                      But if the govt in 2014 is going to be less evil than nact, it needs labour to make the bulk of the coalition. So attacking labour with the diligence and zeal you have been applying, and the nice comparisons you’ve been making about Shearer, will only help nact.

                      As I keep saying, some criticism is reasonable. Misreading statements to say a call for moderation equals “you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” is, imo, unreasonable and foolhardy.
                      But then if you’re principled enough to let a genocide happen rather than try to stop it with mercenaries, keeping nact in power for three more years is mild in comparison.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      attacking labour with the diligence and zeal you have been applying, and the nice comparisons you’ve been making about Shearer, will only help nact.,/i>

                      Shearer alone is not Labour, Labour is not Shearer alone. You confuse an ephemeral figurehead with the party itself that has activists, members, history, tradition and ideals.

                      As I keep saying, some criticism is reasonable. Misreading statements to say a call for moderation equals “you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” is, imo, unreasonable and foolhardy.

                      That is exactly what you have been doing by treating Shearer as the personification of the party.

                      But then if you’re principled enough to let a genocide happen rather than try to stop it with mercenaries, keeping nact in power for three more years is mild in comparison.

                      Did I say that a genocide was preferable? No, I did not. That is a slanderous misrepresentation that you are repeating from Matthew Hooton. I said that favouring mercenaries as a way of balancing budgets was pretty despicable – with the implication that we know from Iraq how jolly that turned out.

                      “you’re with us or you’re with the terrorists” is, imo, unreasonable

                      Then stop, in effect, saying it.

                      You keep saying there are two voices in each case, and it’s usually a straw man argument designed to slander your opponent. The choice is not only Shearer or Nact, it’s not only genocide or mercenaries (at least you have the decency to call them mercenaries).

                    • Rhinoviper

                      But then if you’re principled enough to let a genocide happen rather than try to stop it with mercenaries, keeping nact in power for three more years is mild in comparison.

                      By the way how does that statement square with your sanctimonious claim to be “moderate”?

                    • McFlock

                      Actually, the scenario on the ground really was “we need to find a way to stop this shit, and the countries with the trained soldiers have demonstrated several times that they aren’t going to help”. Not a book-balancing issue. It really was that “one or the other” scenario, because the international community failed.

                      And again, in the real world mana and the greens aren’t going to get on average 26% each in 2014. So you might think it’s a straw man, but unless greens and mana put forward Jesus and Richie McCaw as candidates any change from nact needs, imo, labour with 35-40% of the vote.

                      I’m not the one who focussed on shearer as symptomatic of what’s wrong with the party.

                      A more accurate misrepresentation of my position might be “if you attack the same targets the terrorists would attack, as effectively as the terrorists would like to attack them, and spread the same terror as the terrorists, then yeah, you’re probably with the terrorists”. If you really want to use the terrorist analogy.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Ooh look, Matthew Hooton has had nothing to say. The man who fishes for clients amongst racists and neonazis at the Malborough Sounds Symposia has scuttled away like a cockroach when the kitchen light is turned on once again.

                      Liar, hypocrite – and coward as well.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Where to begin?

                      Actually, the scenario on the ground

                      That’s an oxymoron. A scenario is an abstraction that may be a comprehensive overview. Perhaps you mean “situation”?

                      Not a book-balancing issue.

                      Shearer presented it as such. Take it up with him.

                      because the international community failed

                      Indeed, but “mercenaries!” is not the inevitable answer any more than “arm the teachers!” is.

                      I’m not the one who focussed on shearer as symptomatic of what’s wrong with the party.

                      So what? You’re a quack and I won’t take your medical advice.

                      any change from nact needs

                      Ah, you see, that’s the problem. Is Labour’s caucus as it stands any change other than a cosmetic change from Nact?

                      A more accurate misrepresentation

                      May I say “lol” at this particular paradox?

                    • McFlock

                      scenario/situation/who gives a fuck.

                      Not from what I’ve read, he didn’t. So I won’t.

                      Mercenaries know how to use guns. Teachers, not so much.

                      You’re a kook. See: I can do it, too.

                      Yes. Just like they were in for nine years. Not perfect, most of their good policy was the result of their coalition partners, but even the little changes Lab5 made off their own bat were a shitload better for many people (including beneficiaries) than national. I was one at the time. It didn’t get to the level of “comfortable”, but it at least became “bearable”. That’s why I am prepared to accept any small improvement over nact.

                      “May I say “lol” at this particular paradox?”
                      Feel free. But if you are going to use irrational analogies, at least make them a little bit relevant to what I said.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Mercenaries know how to use guns. Teachers, not so much.

                      Indeed. On civilians.

                      You’re a kook. See: I can do it, too.

                      Good, I’m glad that you’re finally being honest.

                      stuff about the past and wishful thinking for the future

                      Nice, but fantasy. Reality always falls below promise… so if the promises now are so meagre, what do you think the reality will be. Sorry, I’m not going to live on what I imagine the promise is, especially when the promise itself is no longer being offered!

                      Just how small an improvement do you expect or will you tolerate by the way?

                      I have enormous respect for Helen Clark as an astute politician. She may not have been the messiah, but she was damned good at her job and she knew how to keep her partners on side. I have no such confidence in Shearer, especially considering his utter failure to control Jones and the other bozos, so induction from an historical precedent is wishful thinking at best.

                      at least make them a little bit relevant to what I said.

                      Well considering your misrepresentations and outright lies about my views, I feel justified. Will you say it again? Do I support genocide? Did I say so? Yes or no?

                    • McFlock

                      In answer to your question, no.
                      You just prefer genocide over even thinking about paying people to stop it.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      I am not saying and have never said that nobody is allowed to criticise shearer. All I’m saying is that much or most of the criticism e.g. from you in this discussion goes beyond fair or even rational.

                      OK, so again, do I support genocide? That would be a prime example of irrational criticism and you’ve – following Matthew Hooton – insinuated what where he made it explicit. Now did I say that?

                      Yes or no.

                      Show me that you’re “rational” and “moderate”.

                      Say it.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Come on Hooton… hello… hello…?

                      I’m still waiting.

                      Got something to say, cockroach?

                      No, thought not.

                    • McFlock

                      missed that comment.

                      You’re just prepared to let one happen rather than pay someone to stop it. It would be too much to call that “support”. Just an absence of “oppose”.

                  • felixviper

                    “lol, now shearer’s Marie Antoinette.”

                    McF, you’re one of the smartest people who contribute to this forum. I find it entirely unbelievable that you think drawing a parallel is the same as equating.

                    Especially when the example is being used to highlight the difference rather than the similarity, as in Rhino’s reference to Marie Antoinette.

                    It’s a bit rich to call for a more measured tone if you’re going to pretend you don’t understand the criticisms of others rather than disagreeing with their conclusions.

                    • McFlock

                      whose, according to RV, was the most serious and telling comment?

                    • felixviper

                      Way to pretend to miss the point.

                      Again.

                    • McFlock

                      “Let them eat brioche” was also a seemingly light comment, but it was tellingly symptomatic of Marie Antoinette’s callousness… but in Shearer’s case it was scripted and rehearsed – it was calculated, so I will take it very seriously.

                      The “difference” being highlighted seems to be that MA was unthinkingly callous, yet DS was calculated callousness.

                      If you have a better interpretation, let’s hear it.

                    • felixviper

                      It wasn’t a comparison to see who was the worst person in the world – that’s entirely your spin on it.

                    • McFlock

                      it was about the comments.

                      But the choice of comparator was a touch biased.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      The “difference” being highlighted seems to be that MA was unthinkingly callous, yet DS was calculated callousness.

                      I’ll agree with that. And yes, I am biased. I am biased against dictatorship. I am biased against people who try to blackmail and intimidate their opponents. I am biased against people who demand loyalty oaths. I am biased against people who demand assurances of future voting intentions in what is supposed to be a secret democratic ballot. I am biased against incompetents and slanderers.

                      So call me biased. I’m happy with that label.

                      However, I propose a corollary to Godwin’s Rule:

                      “To propose that someone is not as bad as Hitler/Stalin/Cthulhu/Torquemada/Lavrenti Beria/Dr Strangelove/that bastard who invented Muzak/Bill Gates does not mean that all criticism of them should be dismissed for that reason.”

                      Here’s another: Criticism is not treason.

                      It should be bleeding obvious, but McFlock seems to be a bit slow on the uptake.

                    • McFlock

                      Once a-fucking-gain:
                      I am not saying and have never said that nobody is allowed to criticise shearer. All I’m saying is that much or most of the criticism e.g. from you in this discussion goes beyond fair or even rational.

                    • Mary

                      ” I am not saying and have never said that nobody is allowed to criticise shearer. All I’m saying is that much or most of the criticism e.g. from you in this discussion goes beyond fair or even rational.”

                      McFlock, are you saying it’s okay to criticise Shearer, but wrong to go so far as to say he’s not the right person for the job and that he should step down so that someone who can lead Labour back to its left-wing roots can take over? Or is it just calling him names like Mumblefuck that you object to?

                    • felixviper

                      Well you keep saying that McF, but I’ve been consistently criticising Shearer for:

                      a) his totally uncontroversial shitness at talking
                      b) his failure to make his principles clearly understood
                      c) his bullying (and tacit support for bullying) of dissenters

                      But apparently that’s just hyperbolic bullshit and venom and tantamount to calling him a war criminal.

                    • McFlock

                      A) is legitimate, but I thing overstated
                      B) fuck that – I don’t do presidential politics, I look at party policy;
                      C) not sure about bullying or tacit support for that. To what do you refer?

                    • McFlock

                      Mary:

                      I think it’s the massive overstatement of his shortcomings, plus the names, plus the general bullshit that fucks me off.

                  • Rhinoviper

                    You just prefer genocide over even thinking about paying people to stop it.

                    Ah, so you did say it. Well that just shows how “rational” and “moderate” you are.

                    However, again, I ask, where did I say “I prefer genocide over… whatever.”?

                    Say it.

                    If you can’t, then you are a liar and slanderer.

                    Again: Say it and prove it.

                    Where did I say, “It is better that a genocide was committed”?

                    Say it, prove it. Quote me, exactly, word-for-word.

                    If you can’t then this is what you are: a liar and a sanctimonious hypocrite.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Come on McFlock.

                      You’ve replied to other posts but skirted this one, so you can’t pretend that you haven’t seen it. You slandered me, now justify that slander.

                      Again, where did I say “I prefer a genocide”?

                      Prove it; quote me word for word and don’t invent anything, because if you do that, you will prove that you are a liar.

                      With luck, you might even support Matthew Hooton, which I’m sure you will feel proud to do (that’s sarcasm, BTW).

                    • McFlock

                      “skirting”??? I’m trying to keep up with sleep dep and a fucked internet connection! But then it’s not like anyone here would infer malice where exists another explanation.

                      “And the only alternatives to mercenaries…

                      And what paves the road to Hell?”

                      So are you saying that you would consider mercenaries to prevent a genocide, if other options had turned their backs?

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Stop using sophistry to avoid the question. Answer it. Now!

                      Do I support genocide? Where did I say that? Quote me, word-for-word and stop making excuses for yourself, liar!

                    • Rhinoviper

                      “skirting”??? I’m trying to keep up with sleep dep and a fucked internet connection!

                      Oh please, that’s pathetic. Sleep deprivation? Allow me to play the world’s smallest violin. Whoops, lost it down the back of the sofa, sorry.

                      Again. Quote me. Where did I say “I support genocide”?

                      Try it, liar.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Come on liar. Answer. Don’t give me bullshit about a bad internet connection and sleep deprivation – you’ve had the time,energy and access to reply to other posts.

                      You claim that I support genocide and that’s a serious slander. I expect you to justify it.

                      Do so now, liar.

                      No fantasy, no supposition, none of what the voices in your head tell you – purely my own words, where I explicitly state that I would have preferred that a genocide had taken place.

                      It would be very easy and simple if it were true, somewhat harder if you are a lying sack of shit.

                      Go ahead.

                    • McFlock

                      oh I’m sorry, forgot the world revolves around you.

                      I did quote exactly what you said.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      I did quote exactly what you said.

                      And you didn’t prove your claim, so you are a lying sack of shit. Thank you for confirming that.

                      oh I’m sorry, forgot the world revolves around you.

                      So I’m an egotist. Your point is… what, exactly? You have admitted that you are a liar and a slanderer.

                    • geoff

                      Very entertaining exchamge, Rhino, +1. Also, more Hooton bashing please.

                    • McFlock

                      so “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” is an endorsement of considering mercenaries to prevent a genocide?

                      Good to know.

                    • McFlock

                      “You have admitted that you are a liar and a slanderer.”

                      Where, you idiot?

                      That’s a scurrilous calumny, defamation, defamation!

                      You just made a far more tenuous statement than adding:
                      “mercenary=bad”+”road to hell”+(“lesser evil”=”slippery slope”)
                      =”do nothing while genocide occurs”.

                      Not that I expect it to get past your blinkers.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      so “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” is an endorsement of considering mercenaries to prevent a genocide?

                      Good to know.

                      Frankly, your posts make no sense whatsoever now. They are devoid of logic or connection to context. You make a fantastic assumption, based entirely on what the voices in your head tell you, add “So” as a prefix and imagine that that somehow constitutes “moderate” and “reasonable” argument.

                      If there’s a guide to indicate that a letter to the editor has been written by an idiot, then if it hasn’t been handwritten in green ink, then the sure sign is that it begins with “So”.

                      Yet again you are fantasising about what I said, yet again you are making shit up and yet again you fail to provide a direct and accurate quote.

                      So, I mean that Richard Nixon’s missing tapes are lost in the Bermuda Triangle. So, I suppose that the Windsors are in fact alien reptiles. So, I mean that Smurfs are responsible for all the world’s evil.

                      Again, I say this:

                      Liar.

                      Spare me your paranoid interpretations of what you think I meant. Instead, quote me word for word. Where did I say “I prefer that a genocide had happened.”?

                      Why can’t you do that?

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Where, you idiot?

                      By your failure to provide the quote. It should be easy, but you won’t because you can’t – and you know it.

                      Give me the words… or as John Key said, quoting some dumb movie, “Show me the money!”

                      You won’t, because you can’t and in displaying that, you’re admitting it.

                      Yet again: You are a liar.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      You just made a far more tenuous statement than adding:
                      “mercenary=bad”+”road to hell”+(“lesser evil”=”slippery slope”)
                      =”do nothing while genocide occurs”.

                      That’s gibberish. Try constructing a coherent statement in a clear paragraph with conventional grammar. Novelty is good.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And once the private mercernaries have done their job, you can send in Bechtel and Halliburton to run the country’s government (and it’s resources) on behalf of the people, as they clearly will be in no shape to do it themselves.

              • Mary

                “One good line that he didn’t completely think through, and he never hears the end of it. Sounds like the “you screw ONE goat…” joke.”

                Shearer’s never stepped away from those comments one jot, let alone apologise for them. Is just one indicator among many of the direction Shearer and Labour want to move in.

                • McFlock

                  I prefer to let policy indicate a party’s direction.

                  • Rhinoviper

                    “Policy” is bullshit. I prefer to see practice – in government or opposition. Thus far we see Chippy quibbling about the timing of asset sales FFS and the headless chooks running around not knowing what the Hell they want to say if they’re not snoozing.

                    Anyway, relating to the initial comment, what is Shearer’s policy on beneficiaries now? What will he do for them once he’s PM? Do tell, since that matters so much.

                    • McFlock

                      What’s labour’s policy on benefits and beneficiaries?
                      There’s your answer.

                    • Mary

                      I agree, McFlock. Labour has shown no change from its stance on beneficiaries since its Social Security Amendment Act 2007 which screwed beneficiaries over in ways one could be forgiven for thinking even Nact couldn’t contemplate doing. Shearer’s roof painting comments are consistent with that stance. There’s been nothing from Labour suggesting it may have changed its position on welfare, and a ton of evidence indicating its going to continue with that “policy”.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Labour has repeatedly stated that $13.50/hr is not a wage that you can live on, and that an 11% rise to $15/hr is crucial in terms of fairness and alleviating poverty.

                      The beneficiaries who are expected to live on 1/3 that amount don’t seem to have received any similar consideration from Labour however.

                    • felixviper

                      “What’s labour’s policy on benefits and beneficiaries?”

                      Same as National’s more or less.

                  • felixviper

                    “I prefer to let policy indicate a party’s direction.”

                    Of course. Does that mean nothing the leader says or does is up for criticism unless the party has specifically endorsed it?

                    John Key’s throat-slitting gesture drew a lot of criticism not because National has a policy on throat-slitting, but because it showed us something about the man, his values, his character and his attitudes.

                    • McFlock

                      Indeed.

                      But I don’t think that the shearer story was quite so outrageously revealing. I think it’s broadly consistent with Labour over the last ten years or more, I don’t think it implies malice so much as mental blinkers about “work” being a person’s value, and while it was clumsy I don’t think that the message they were trying to communicate was particularly bad or surprising.

                      There’s a whole bunch of politically active people here who seem surprised and outraged that Labour and its leadership aren’t particularly left wing. I really don’t know why they suddenly give a shit. I don’t recall this level of venom directed at goff, for example.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      But I don’t think that the shearer story was quite so outrageously revealing. I think it’s broadly consistent with Labour over the last ten years or more,

                      Completely consistent with Labour over the last thirty years, in fact.

                    • McFlock

                      I don’t think it’s as far as douglas.

                      But if labour are elected in 2014, it’s mana and the greens who will provide the bulk of policy traction – although labour might take the foot off the throats of many nzers, the hand up will come from their coalition partners.

                    • felixviper

                      “I don’t recall this level of venom directed at goff, for example.”

                      Where’s the venom? Shearer is being criticised for his faults and failings, just as Goff was.

                    • felixviper

                      “while it was clumsy I don’t think that the message they were trying to communicate was particularly bad or surprising”

                      Yeah, he’s really not very good at communication.

                    • McFlock

                      You have read some of the spin about mercenaries, or arthur harris, or some people calling him an out&out neoliberal?

                    • felixviper

                      Yep. Where’s the venom?

                      Is it venomous to disagree on politics now? Is it venomous to want to know where someone stands on a particular issue?

                    • McFlock

                      Oh, right. No venom. Fair enough then. Shearer’s a “lesser criminal” than Arthur Harris. Perfectly reasonable comparison. “Unity at gunpoint”: perfectly reasonable. Shearer, when faced with how to prevent genocide, performs a book-balancing act. Shearer’s akin to actively preventing treatment of a disease. Not an exaggeration at all. He’s an incompetent career-padder who stole an election and turns everything to shit. Riiiiight. /sarc

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Shearer’s a “lesser criminal”

                      I’ll try to pretend that this is an aside, but considering the heated context, I’d be fooling myself if I believed that it was going to be interpreted as such, but nonetheless I feel that it needs to be said.

                      Hitler was evil, Stalin was evil, Torquemada was evil, Matthew Hopkins was evil, Lavrenti Beria was evil.

                      We can add to the list easily.

                      There are a lot of other evil people too. There’s Arthur J. Scribbs of Basingtoke-On-Sea who believes all sorts of shit and wants to murder millions to make the world a better place. Never heard of him? Right, you haven’t because I made him up, but there are plenty of real people who believe awful things and who think that genocide is the best way to make it real. Thankfully, nobody takes them seriously.

                      Then there is is Adolf Schicklegruber, aka Hitler who gets into office and there are people who say, “Well, some of what he says is pretty extreme, but he also speaks the truth about the Jews.” There are people who say that Mussolini is a dictator, but he does make the trains run on time and God knows, the bad train service really was the bane of my life…

                      There’s Adolf Eichman who was a very efficient bureaucrat who may not have hated Jews personally, but saw a logistics problem that needed solving and he made sure that the trains to Auschwitz ran on time. He even cared about the inmates of the extermination camps and ensured that music was played because he wanted to “eliminate fear”.

                      There was Albert Speer, who only wanted to be an successful architect and so he found himself employing slave labour.

                      Near Auschwitz there were many small towns and villages and after 1945, nobody who lived there admitted that they knew what happened.

                      They’re all normal people. People who knew them liked them as people. Why not? They were nice, they were courteous, they meant well.

                      Now I bring up Nazi war criminals because that’s shocking. I did it deliberately to make the point that “good” people can do evil things.

                      Here’s how evil works: it takes people who would be good and tells them that something awful would in the long run be a good thing, and so telling themselves that it will work out for the best in the long run is right.

                      My point with the above is this: people who are fundamentally good could still be seduced into doing something evil.

                      There is no clear line that separates good people from people who have done evil. Please not my choice of words: “good people” who have “done evil” because they have been “seduced”.

                      There is a spectrum, a line from white to black that proceeds through grey.

                      Any claim, falsely invoking Godin assumes that there is some line separating decent people from bad people as if there was some qualitative difference between them when in fact we are all potential sinners and the difference is in fact quantitive .

                      Now here’s another thing that I have to say that I feel is of vital importance. David Shearer is not Adolf Eichman or Albert Speer. He’s not Marie Antoinette. I do believe that he has absolute moral principles that will prevent him from their weaknesses in practice.

                      Or I hope he does.

                      He is however a fool.

                      His focus groups have told him that it’s OK to attack beneficiaries because it will be good in the long run. OK, that might be right in this one instance, but what if he is a man weak enough to agree every time someone says this too him? His utter failure to discipline Shane Jones or Clare Curran shows that he is a man on a slippery slope and doesn’t know it. I don’t expect him to open extermination camps with gas chambers, but I would not be at all surprised if he said, “Well, I know beneficiaries are having a hard time, bit… well, I don’t really know how hard it is for them, so maybe it isn’t so bad to live on a benefit long-term. Someone told me that they got by for a while… look, my real concern is the aspiring workers, and… we’ll, really, there are these people on talkback radio and we could get them to vote for us, so we shouldn’t antagonise them… I mean it’s for the best – in the long run. We’ll get around to them, I mean the beneficiaries, in the end… I mean, if there are jobs…”

                      He’s also a weasel.

                      His moral principles will prevent him from being a Nazi, but is delusion that he as a “realist” will permit him to commit cruelties that may be not as bad as gassing but bad objectively nonetheless and that should not be excused.

                      So the good news for beneficiaries: No gas chambers. Hooray!

                      The bad news for beneficiaries? “Good job chaps, keep it up. We’ll get around to you when we can, but in the meantime, try to find a job that we promise we will create some time and sorry that we can’t be seen to support you… but our focus groups say that it’s a bad look… but don’t worry, we have your best interests at heart!”

                      They might even mean it.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      PS. Short version: It’s not as bad as Nazism, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t bad. And it should be stopped.

                      “Lesser evil”

                      Fuck that!

                    • felixviper

                      Perhaps that could be Shearer’s campaign slogan McF:

                      ‘Vote Shearer. Not as bad as a war criminal.’

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Perhaps that could be Shearer’s campaign slogan McF:

                      ‘Vote Shearer. Not as bad as a war criminal.’

                      Shit dude, there’s a whole money making line of t-shirts to be made right there.

                    • McFlock

                      fuck sake

                      Have fun with those tshirts.
                      I mean, you could have tshirts that illustrate the people who really die because of National’s actual policies, but Shearer doesn’t communicate well so let’s blow shit out of all proportion. That’ll inspire positive change in the country. /sarc

                    • felixviper

                      So how about you come up with a better slogan that better encapsulates the values, principles and vision of Sh..

                      Oh, I see. Never mind then.

                    • McFlock

                      “spent 15 years trying to help people, not 15 years gambling with other people’s money”

                    • geoff

                      Hitler was evil, Stalin was evil, Torquemada was evil, Matthew Hopkins was evil, Lavrenti Beria was evil.

                      We can add to the list easily.

                      Matthew Hooton?

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Matthew Hooton?

                      Heh. Hooton, despite his pretensions is no satanic majesty. He is, with apologies to Hannah Arendt, not an representation of the banality of evil but, moral and intellectual mediocrity that he is, a demonstration of the evil of banality.

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      the “banality” comment was funny hyperbolic one

                    • felixviper

                      That’s a pretty good line McF. Pity he didn’t manage to deliver it at all convincingly, but it’s a good angle.

                      Is there anything else you can say about him? Serious question. I honestly have no idea what it is you think makes him the right person for the job.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Actually you can’t use that “15 years helping people” line because the follow up question will be: “what else was he doing for the other 40 years?”

                    • felixviper

                      Good point

                    • Hi McFlock,

                      Would this be an accurate characterisation of your thinking and why you’re ok with having Shearer leader of Labour?

                      It’s ok for Labour to be led by an ideologically vague leader and remain centre/centre-right because that would achieve two things (a) attract some centre/centre-right voters to what would be a nominally ‘left’ coalition; (b) repel some left voters/activists away from Labour and towards actual left-wing parties, thus strengthening their hands, electorally and organisationally. This would mean enough votes for a nominally left government under which minor parties could push through actual left policies.

                      If it is, I think it’s mistaken – and too clever by half.

                      A vacuous centrist Labour Party will further lower the overall left turnout, which advantages the right. Given a generally apolitical electorate, a Labour Party that doesn’t look like much simply tarnishes the overall idea that the left has much to offer New Zealand.

                      Similarly, such a Labour Party – if it did manage to lead a government after the 2014 election – would try to distance itself from any overt left-wing actions either by turning to NZF/UF/MP or threatening to pull the pin on any arrangement that it might strike with the Greens should actual left policies be pushed by them (it would be ok with some environmental policies, I suspect, as those wouldn’t impact on its economic centrist image). We won’t be getting the kinds of policy initiatives that the Alliance pushed through between 1999-2002.

                      (It could not possibly go into any arrangement with Mana as it would be afraid of being ‘tainted’, in the centre-right voters’ minds, by association thus destroying the unthreatening, anodyne branding currently being promoted. After all, Goff rejected Harawira as a radical.).

                    • McFlock

                      Puddlegum:
                      no.

              • QoT

                Just for context, here’s the “one good line” you’re talking about, McFlock:

                Last year before the election, I was chatting to a guy in my electorate who had just got home from work. In the middle of the conversation, he stopped and pointed across the road to his neighbour.

                He said: “see that guy over there, he’s on a sickness benefit, yet he’s up there painting the roof of his house. That’s not bloody fair. Do you guys support him?”

                From what he told me, he was right, it wasn’t bloody fair, and I said so. I have little tolerance for people who don’t pull their weight.

                … if that’s off-the-cuff, unrehearsed or “not thought through” then I am Gerry Brownlee.

                • just saying

                  It’s worth mentioning that it was the second time he’d used the “anecdote”. I gave him the benefit of the doubt the first time he said it, some months before.

                  It was probably the most considered` and carefully-worded, three paragraphs in the whole speech.

                  • felixviper

                    Probably in his whole political career.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It was probably the most considered` and carefully-worded, three paragraphs in the whole speech.

                    In the version I saw it was also placed very close to the start of the speech, where reporters and anyone else skimming the text version would pick it up first.

                    • McFlock

                      sigh.

                      I didn’t say it was off the cuff.

                      Just that he/they hadn’t thought it through.

                      Concentrating on message A in the anecdote so much that message B wasn’t noticed.

                      When did he most recently use the anecdote?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Political leaders are supposed to be good at communicating deliberately nuanced messages and intentional dog-whistles to different audiences in the same crowd.

                      Political leaders are also supposed to be competent at reading between the lines to ensure that they are not pissing off their own core constituencies. (This is quite an important skill for politicians who want longevity to have).

                      Admittedly these are all things which take a lot of time to practice, learn and get good at.

                    • McFlock

                      true.

                      And if that were the extent of the criticisms made here, the hyperbole wouldn’t exist.

                    • felixviper

                      I don’t see how the existence of other criticisms of which you don’t approve could in any way alter the validity of these ones.

                    • McFlock

                      It doesn’t. I agree. Shearer’s not a particularly good communicator. That’s a valid criticism.

                      And I’ll even go further and say that I think if he didn’t learn a lot in 2012 to improve the polls in 2013 (I think I’ve even given a timeframe and KPIs elsewhere), he is not appropriate to be a leader.

                      But then avoiding outlandish comparisons and predictions of calamity make for much less interesting comment threads, it seems.

                    • felixviper

                      “And I’ll even go further and say that I think if he didn’t learn a lot in 2012 to improve the polls in 2013 (I think I’ve even given a timeframe and KPIs elsewhere), he is not appropriate to be a leader.”

                      Are you sure you don’t remember any criticism of Goff? Because that’s pretty much the exact response we all heard for 2 and a half years.

                      Of course by then it was 2 years too late, just like it will be for Mumblefuck.

                    • McFlock

                      Yes, goff was criticised.

                      Not anywhere close to this extent, as I recall though. Your welcome to find links here where goff was compared to war criminals.

                    • QoT

                      sigh.

                      I didn’t say it was off the cuff.

                      sigh.

                      I didn’t say it was off the cuff either, I said

                      if that’s off-the-cuff, unrehearsed or “not thought through”

                      And I am sorry, McFlock, but I really do not see you arguing sincerely on this thread, given exactly how many times you have chosen to misinterpret (because I give you the credit of not being as stupid as you’re pretending to be) other people’s statements.

                    • felixviper

                      “Yes, goff was criticised.

                      Not anywhere close to this extent, as I recall though. Your welcome to find links here where goff was compared to war criminals.”

                      You don’t remember 3 years of Goff being called a rogernome, a neoliberal, a 4th-Labour-minister, a privatiser, a user-pays-fanboi, a free-marketer, a freidmanite in socialist clothing?

                      You don’t remember 3 years of Goff continually being criticised for being shit on telly? For being wooden? For waffling? For being boring, soporific, uninspiring, a grey man, yesterday’s man, a career drone, a beltway fixture, a ghost from the past?

                      You don’t remember 3 years of Goff being criticised for having a militaristic, authoritarian streak? For being too right-wing? For being a suck-up to the Americans?

                      I’m surprised, McF. It wasn’t that long ago.

                • Rhinoviper

                  I have little tolerance for people who don’t pull their weight.

                  Yeah, so what does he think of his front bench and prospective cabinet?

              • Rhinoviper

                Not a book-balancing issue.

                Then I guess Shearer shouldn’t have used it in his carefully thought-through articles then.

                If you really want to use the terrorist analogy.

                Actually I’m using the George W. Bush analogy.

                • McFlock

                  So only the main benefit should be mentioned when examining policy options? Good to know.

                  • Rhinoviper

                    So only the main benefit should be mentioned when examining policy options?

                    Um, I’m not sure exactly what you mean to say. Are you yet again inventing stuff I didn’t actually say and pretending that I did?

                    I can do that too. For example, are you suggesting that some prioritisation should be used, as in “Yes, mercenaries can save money, but on the other hand, Blackwater has proven in practice to commit atrocities on civilian populations that are ultimately a detriment to the peripheral market’s perception of brand value.”

                    In diplomatese it might come out as “the utilisation of private security firms has been found to have detrimental effect in the long term when it comes to the proposed deployment of irregular commercial entities in peace-enforcement operations”

                    Or in English, or the language of someone who isn’t a sociopath, “It looks easy in the short term, but these shitbags are war criminals who commit atrocities for money and there’s no real way of controlling them. We have to think about real principles, how things work in the real world, how things pan out in the long term and we have to think how sovereignty works – again, in the real world. Could there be a Pan-African solution? Is the problem in the weakness of the UN itself, in which case, how do we rectify this? We have to understand that not everything is a business opportunity. By the way, I’m absolutely fucking useless, the mango skins did no good and I herewith tender my resignation”?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      :shock:

                      I can’t write for shit compared to you RV.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      By the way I think McFlock has previously suggested that at least with private sector mercernaries, you have the assurances of the Consumer Guarantees Act. I reckon he was kidding though.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      I can’t write for shit compared to you RV.

                      CV, I admire you for your courage and heart, so you don’t need to be modest.

                      Also, I’m another BSG geek, and I won’t diss a fellow.

                    • McFlock

                      nah, I’m just reading what you fucking wrote.

                      as for the rest of it, are you saying that shearer examined the book-keeping advantages without considering mechanisms for ensuring discipline and/or criminal liability for the contractors? To which article do you refer, specifically?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      “Mechanisms”? You should check out the level of criminal liability that Blackwater had after Iraq, and the number of successful follow up prosecutions: i.e. approx. none.

                      ‘it was a tragedy and innocent civilians were killed, but there was no crime’

                    • McFlock

                      That’s what one would call “an absence of such mechanisms”. As I recall, the imposed governor of Iraq gave all US military and non-military forces immunity – it might therefore count as “mechanisms to do the opposite”.

                      edit: actually, tell a lie: they gave immunity to us forces, but the contractors just shipped the perpetrators out of the country if it looked like something might be done about particularly egregious crimes.

    • Bill 17.3

      ;-) You do know that

      during Richard’s reign, the historian John Rous praised him as a “good lord” who punished “oppressors of the commons”, adding that he had “a great heart”. After his death, Richard’s image was tarnished by propaganda fostered by his Tudor successors…

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England#Reputation

      • McFlock 17.3.1

        Yeah, I was thinking more the Shakespearian one :)

        Although even the “good lord” with the “great heart” seems to have accidentally mislaid two young princes he’d kept in the Tower for safekeeping. But who needs to split heirs about it?

    • just saying 17.4

      Thirty two comments McFliper – two have mentioned Cunliffe and none have hailed him as any kind of saviour let alone imbued him with greatness. Personally, I’m not wild about Cunliffe either. It is a reflection of how disastrous and dangerous I see Shearer’s leadership that I prefer him.

      <i…."Shearer's not as bad as all that…

      I beg to differ. In all your contributions to these discussions, I don’t recall you ever describing what it is about Shearer that has won your admiration sufficient to defend him vehemently over an over. Why do you think Shearer would make a good leader of a left coalition? I respect your opinions Mcfliper, so I can’t believe that you think it is good enough for Labour and its leader to be a slightly better option than than Key and National.

      I’ve made my views pretty clear. I think Shearer would probably be in the National caucus if he has offered the kind of deal he was given by the Labour power elite. He’s been pretty cagy about his beliefs, but my impression is that National’s philosophy would be a better fit for him. His career prospects, however were considerably better with Labour, and given the paucity of difference between the two parties, it probably wasn’t too much of a compromise.

      I’m also interested to know what you think of Shearer entering the leadership race with less than a term under his belt and no significant input in that time, having only joined the party when it looked like a promising career move (with the very active support of future leader and infamous rogernome, Phil Goff). Do you see that as a reflection of rightful confidence in his superior ability, dangerous vanity and overconfidence, or what?

      I’m genuinely puzzled, and would like to understand where you are coming from, because throughout these conversations your support for Shearer and the party status quo has never seemed consistent with your other opinions on politics in general.

      • McFlock 17.4.1

        If the comments are negative about shearer and labour, are you telling me that an alternative isn’t the elephant in the room?

        I think Shearer is pretty average, but can do the job.
        But I don’t think Cunliffe is a saviour of Labour, either.

        But why I try to put in a bit of perspective is that I DEFINITELY think that a house this divided will fall. This is not a demand for an absence of criticism, just a belief that shit has been blown way out of proportion. All comparing Shearer to, e.g., Arthur Harris does is divert resources and focus away from Key. And it also makes valid criticisms about specific speeches or poor performance more ignorable by people who want to ignore them.

        And I don’t particularly care about how long S has been a party member or whatever. For me the debate has become about whether Labour will be able to get its shit together before 2014 and win an election. Because as far as I can see, either side if happy to burn the house down around themselves if they lose in february.

        Which would sadden me. Because Labour needs 35-40% for the left to win. Left wing policy will be supplied by mana and the greens.

        I don’t get how Shearer manages to attract such personal vitriol.

        • just saying 17.4.1.1

          Yes. I don’t think Cunliffe is “the elephant in the room”.
          I think for most commenters who feel strongly about this issue, Cunliffe may be seen as a better alternative, but this is, in essence not about Cunliffe. I was going to do a Venn diagram a while ago to this effect.

          I stand to be corrected. How many commenters feel as strongly positive (or more so) about Cunliffe as they feel strongly negative about Shearer? Put another way, how many see this issue as being as much about Cunliffe as about Shearer?

          As to your other argument.
          A) I think Shearer is a serious liability to Labour winning the next election,
          and
          B) If Labour does win, (and if it does it will be despite Shearer and not because of him) I think a weak Labour-led government, with no clear direction, would be a one term non-entity, and as such, would further the long-term interests of the far right.

          • McFlock 17.4.1.1.1

            A) okay, we disagree. and I think some of the claims in this thread are a bigger threat.

            B) That is a possibility. But I don’t think labour will fundamentally change between now and the next election.

            • quartz 17.4.1.1.1.1

              I don’t get how Shearer manages to attract such personal vitriol.

              Possibly because he allows his caucus to do things like attack our coalition partner and blackmail and threaten our bloggers and blog commenters.

              • McFlock

                Actually, that’s a fair criticism about Shane Jones. The Curran thing I’d expect to be handled in-house, without anyone here finding out.

                • quartz

                  It hasn’t been.

                  • McFlock

                    how do you know?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      it may very well have been handled behind the scenes, in the form of medals, certificates etc.

                    • quartz

                      Because I have asked someone who knows.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      McF:

                      I’d expect to be handled in-house, without anyone here finding out.

                      Q:

                      It hasn’t been.

                      McF:

                      how do you know?

                      WTF? Is this what you earthlings call “humour”? Do you assume that privately and discretely Curran has been slapped across the wrist with a wet bus ticket and that she’s crossed her fingers behind her back and said, “Yeth, I’ve been a very naughty girl and won’t do it again, honest, thir” and that somehow means that it’s been “dealt with” – or do you mean to totally ignore the fact that Curran, a Labour MP, is an idiot and an egregious bully has been widely reported across the blogosphere?

                    • King Kong

                      CV, I notice that you are back and apologise if this has been explained elsewhere but I was curious to know whether the reason for your reappearance is a) you have agreed to blindly follow Currans’s line or b) you have grown a pair.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      KK, your concern is quite moving, and yes it’s good to be back ;)

                    • McFlock

                      rv,

                      so you’d prefer stocks?

                    • McFlock

                      argh shit, delete button isn’t there.

                      Ignore the “stocks” comment, I’m getting shirty. Me numbers ain’t adding up correctly on the computerised countfabulator here at work.

          • felixviper 17.4.1.1.2

            “How many commenters feel as strongly positive (or more so) about Cunliffe as they feel strongly negative about Shearer?”

            1. I would’ve preferred to have seen Cunliffe as leader.

            2. I don’t have any confidence in Shearer’s abilities.

            Those statements aren’t directly related and it’s disingenuous of some commenters here to pretend they are.

          • One Tāne Viper 17.4.1.1.3

            Just Saying, I think you are absolutely right. The problem with Shearer isn’t that Cunliffe is competent and articulate.

        • weka 17.4.1.2

          You do realise that Shearer isn’t really the problem, he just symbolises or puts a face on the problem. The problem, as far as I can tell, is that Labour hasn’t recovered from the 80s, and members and GP voters are wanting Labour to be a true left party but it’s not currently. And people have run out of patience. If it wasn’t Shearer, it would be the ABCs or whoever.

          When you or anyone says “stop being so negative about Shearer, we need to be united”, it comes across as “stop trying to get Labour to shift left”. This is why the unity argument doesn’t work. People are willing to let the party fall rather than let it remain in it’s rightward drift.

          • just saying 17.4.1.2.1

            That’s true too.
            Okay. Original question with “Shearer and what he represents”…

            • Rhinoviper 17.4.1.2.1.1

              That’s the problem as I see it. I don’t care particularly for Cunliffe – I think that he would be “better”, but not the messiah, but on the other hand he would be the real “lesser evil” whereas Shearer is more symptomatic of the deeper problem of Labour’s ABC caucus faction, which is it’s complacency and solipsism. He is now not merely a symptom; he enables the disease.

              • just saying

                And actively prevents the possibility of treatment, vaccination or cure.

              • Dr Terry

                Who needs “a messiah” for leader? Many people thought Key was messiah (and still do).
                All we want to be sure of is that we do not get Mephistopheles.

          • McFlock 17.4.1.2.2

            I have said repeatedly that criticism is fine and even warranted.

            When I say (for want of better phrasing) “stop being so negative about Shearer”, I mean literally that.

            According to descriptions in this thread, Shearer is a bumbling, mumbling, neoliberal demagogue who would happily spend a career killing hundreds of thousands of people (rather than trying to save them). OR the caucus needs media training and the apparent tactic of appealing to the “middle floating voter” is a way for labour to lose both its principles and the election. Which criticisms do you think are more likely to elicit change in Labour for the better?

            • Rhinoviper 17.4.1.2.2.1

              Which criticisms do you think are more likely to elicit change in Labour for the better?

              Aha, a trick question! The latter didn’t work if the response to the conference votes are any guide.

              • McFlock

                Not very reasonable to write off the party before the bulk of policy has been determined.

                • Colonial Viper

                  You say you prefer to assess the direction of the Labour Party based on its policies.

                  You also say that the bulk of Labour Party policies have not yet been determined.

                  Does this imply that the direction of the Labour Party remains unknowable at this time, and will remain unknowable until say 2014, when the bulk of policies have been determined?

                  • McFlock

                    Nope. One would assume that labour would be broadly consistent with the policies it was elected on in 2011.

                    • Rhinoviper

                      was elected on in 2011

                      you may not have noticed, but they weren’t elected on those policies. They lost.

                      Being a pessimist, I can agree with your prognostication, but can you understand the frustration of Labour voters, members, activists and ex-supporters after they kept faith for three years with Gaffe, hoped he’d eventually get to work and then saw the current Politburo so aggressively dismiss their concerns?

                      The vitriol that Shearer attracts may be more than he as a person deserves, but so what? He’s not just a person, he’s Leader of the Labour Party and Pretender to the Throne. He wants to be in the kitchen, he wants to be the master chef, but it’s too hot? Well, Diddums.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I presume you mean elected on in 2005.

                      The problem is that being broadly consistent with the policies of that time is not entirely satisfactory – peak financialisation, peak energy, peak climate are now much more serious, much more recognised and much more immediate problems than they were back then.

                      Further, the policies of the 3rd Labour term helped give National a huge victory in 2008.

                    • McFlock

                      They were elected to parliament as representatives. Their policy platform was their electoral contract, if you will.

                      As for the rest, I am somewhat bemused. Waiting three years? Labour hasn’t been more than fair left for decades.

                      It seems to me that people have forgotten that there’s no quick victory and endgame. The best we can do is improvements where we can, and the way to leverage that is for minor parties to apply the force using Labour as the fulcrum.

                      Lamenting a lack of left wing Labour now is like waiting thirty years before grieving about the death of a loved one.

                      And my concern isn’t for Shearer. My concern is that we cut off our noses to spite our face.

          • AmaKiwi 17.4.1.2.3

            “You do realise that Shearer isn’t really the problem”

            He stole an election.

            Then he turned out to be Captain Mumblefuck instead of the brilliant leader he, Robertson, Goff, King, and Parker promised.

            • Colonial Weka 17.4.1.2.3.1

              If Shearer disappeared off the face of the earth, do you think all would suddenly be well with the Labour party?

        • the sprout 17.4.1.3

          That’s because you obviously haven’t been paying attention.

          • McFlock 17.4.1.3.1

            been trying to scry it through the bile and hyperbole, but frankly still haven’t found it yet.

        • fenderviper 17.4.1.4

          “Because Labour needs 35-40% for the left to win”

          I’d be happy with Lab 25%, Greens 25%

          • McFlock 17.4.1.4.1

            Hell, I’d be happy with the Alliance on 60%. :)

          • Colonial Weka 17.4.1.4.2

            “I’d be happy with Lab 25%, Greens 25%”

            Or Lab 25% and Greens 26% ;-)

            I’m not yet convinced that Labour know how to play with the others in the sandbox though.

        • Rhinoviper 17.4.1.5

          Which would sadden me. Because Labour needs 35-40% for the left to win. Left wing policy will be supplied by mana and the greens.

          Wishful thinking.

          Maybe left-wing policy will be supplied by Mana and the Greens, but what if some focus group says that Mana and Green policy will scare the horses?

          Two things can happen:

          (A) Cabinet collective responsibility is invoked and a Mana/Green bill is throttled at birth.

          (B)There is a press release stating that the parties have a mature understanding where they can agree to differ… but Labour will vote any genuinely left-wing policy down on its second reading.

          I think Mana and the Greens need to go Hell for leather in the pursuit of votes, because otherwise, if they enter a full coalition instead of confidence and supply, a right-wing Labour or a cowardly Labour will simply squash them at every turn. I’m sure they know that.

          • McFlock 17.4.1.5.1

            Maybe if lab was at 45 it could play two 7% parties against each other. But not at 35 or 40, where it needs both to get anything done.

    • QoTViper 17.5

      The joy of “Captain Mumblefuck” is that, unlike say Captain Panic Pants, it’s far harder for the media to quote when covering the vile conspiracy to destabilise Shearer’s leadership, if that’s what you’re getting at.

      • McFlock 17.5.1

        because the media is the only way disparaging comments and rumours get distributed, obviously…

        • QoT 17.5.1.1

          Of course it isn’t, but it’s the medium (lol) that does the most damage in demographics who aren’t already reading political blogs.

          Just say what you mean, McFlock. It’ll be a lot easier to have a decent conversation then, especially when from current appearances you’ve decided to pre-emptively ban one nickname coined by a marginalised ranty blogger for all future Shearer fuckups.

          • McFlock 17.5.1.1.1

            Ban? No.
            All I’m saying is that you’ve done some of national’s dirty work for them. You’ve provided a nice little disparaging nickname that can be the replacement for the innuendo about HC’s orientation.

            But apparently you’d prefer national to win rather than have shearer as caucus leader.

            • ianmac 17.5.1.1.1.1

              McFlock: Been Reading your observations and I like the rational commonsense point of view that you write. (I think that some negative commentators must be Whaleoil in disguise, and doing National’s job for them?)
              It would be most unusual for a contending Party to declare specific policy this far out from an election. Therefore the constant cry here, that Labour is failing, seems weird.

              And I think that the old “we are Left” and “they are Right” is well past its use-by date in the 21st Century. I wonder if the “Left” could clearly define itself. Union member? Working class? Poorly educated? Low wage earner? Railway worker?

              • karol

                Left wing is a political position, and not so much related to background or occupation: so saith wikip:

                In politics, left-wing describes an outlook or specific position that accepts or supports social equality, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.[1][2][3][4] It usually involves a concern for those in society who are disadvantaged relative to others and an assumption that there are unjustified inequalities (which right-wing politics views as natural or traditional) that need to be reduced or abolished.[3]

                There have been plenty of “rational” explanations for opposing Team Shearer and the current state of the Labour caucus. However, looking the comments in this thread n support of Team Shearer just seem to pretty much ignore or distort them.

                For myself, a Labour government that doesn’t do anything much to improve things for the disadvantaged, and focuses more on appeasing the dominant voices in the MSM and elitist/powerful institutions, is not a government I would support.

                Some of us have been watching the fluffing about by the Labour caucus on policies and political position for too long. We face a difficult future. It needs a major change, in favour of democratic participation, income and social justice, etc, etc. A government that is marginally better than NAct is not a solution for the future.

                In the long term, a weak one term Labour-led government could do more harm than good. For those of us who think change is desperately needed, now is the time to ask for it, to ask often, and to campaign for a different direction for the future.

              • Mary

                “It would be most unusual for a contending Party to declare specific policy this far out from an election.”

                Labour muddied its position on social security throughout the 2008 election campaign as well. Couldn’t be honest on how close they are to National on all things relating to benefits no doubt scared they’d cop the sort of flack they’re getting now about what sort of party they are so just clammed up. Ask Ardern now about Labour’s welfare policy and you’ll experience the same deathly silence that came from King whenever she was asked the same question. People say “give Labour a chance, they haven’t even released their policy yet”. I say that’s bullshit. Recent history proves that Labour’s welfare policies are not dissimilar to National’s. The fact that when questioned Labour refuses to say their position has changed, together with all of the other tell-tale signs like the roof-painting remark, shows pretty clearly what sort of party Labour has become. When questioned on whether Labour regretted its attack on the poor between 1999 and 2008 and if it would reverse that damage and change its stance Shearer replied: “Labour’s a party for workers.” It’s pretty clear Labour’s made its bed.

              • geoff

                Spoken like a true chardonnay socialist, Ianmac. Sounds like you’re socialist in principle but not in practice. Perhaps you’ve just a few too many Telecom shares or the family trust is nicely set up, no need to rock the boat with radical politics eh?

                • ianmac

                  Tell me Geoff. What is the unifying characteristic of the “Left”?
                  Are you saying that you cannot be Left if you own shares or own Trusts? That would deny a huge number of potential “Leftists.” (I own shares in nothing but even if I did why would you use that as a dig? As I am someone who is a supporter, but one who is also concerned that the rhetoric of disdain aimed at Labour Leadership is a betrayal in my eyes, of a Party adapting to modern NZ.)
                  Well geoff, what is the unifying characteristic of the Left?
                  (I accept Karol’s wikip definition @4:56, but am surprised that it was not part of easily known clarion call accepted by us all. “This is what we all believe and we have the means at hand to achieve it all.”)

                  • Mary

                    “As I am someone who is a supporter, but one who is also concerned that the rhetoric of disdain aimed at Labour Leadership is a betrayal in my eyes, of a Party adapting to modern NZ.”

                    If a modern NZ means relegating the poorest of our poor to the class of untouchable then it’s a modern NZ I want no part of.

                  • geoff

                    (I don’t get comment response alerts so have only found your comment now)

                    I’m not into reducing a cocept like Left into a single characteristic but… In the most simplistic terms, for me, the left is about equity. Equity for people, equity for the environment.

                    There is very little that is equitable about the behaviour of the Labour leadership, we just keep seeing example after example of them stomping on the throats of anyone who challenges them (eg, ignoring the first leadership challenge, their response to democratisation at the conference, Clair Curran’s stupid attempt to censor people on the net).

                    If there has been any betrayal it has been a betrayal of NZ from Labour leadership, something that has occurred from the Lange government onwards.
                    Perhaps you’re too young to remember, but there was a time in this country when obtaining and holding a job, owning a house that was reasonably priced and receiving a free education was considered normal.

                    All of that has gone in favour of a very unequitable and unsustainable system. A system which has remained unchallenged by the Labour party for 30 years. Now that, on a global scale, that same unequitable system is essentially broken there is a great opportunity from the Labour Party to point this out, to reframe the debate and provide a more equitable alternative. But what have they done? In an era where social media is democratising every facet of life the Labour Party leadership shows what a dinosaur it is and tries to clumsily kill off that democratising force.

                    Entities such as the sharemarket and trusts are instruments of the wealthy to maintain their unequitable advantage over the rest of society, it is obvious that a politically left-wing person should question them.

                    That you have confessed that you don’t know what Left and Right means suggests that you are either ignorant or trying to use sophistry to push your agenda. Having read some more of your comments it seems more likely that it is the former. Perhaps it might be a good time for you to educate yourself about political history so that you can more usefully contribute to the discussion.

            • QoT 17.5.1.1.1.2

              A mistype in the early morning: I intended “blame”, not ban, since of course you have no power to stop me calling Captain Mumblefuck whatever the fuck I choose.

              And comparing a criticism based on actual observation about the actual way he actually speaks to years of sexist, homophobic abuse heaped on Helen Clark just because a lot of douchebags can’t handle the existence of powerful women is fucking pathetic of you.

              • McFlock

                I wasn’t comparing degrees of hardship.

                Nor was I blaming “mumblefuck” for all shearer’s shortcomings.

                Just that you helped nact by coming up with a handy little moniker that they can share with each other to try to belittle shearer and labour. Good for you.

                • QoT

                  Because the mainstream, non-blogging voter public are going to totally resonate with that one. :roll:

                  And the National Party has no history of coining far more widely-appealing nicknames for Labour politicians. :roll:

                  How is Phil-in Goff doing, by the way?

                  • McFlock

                    bit more contrived than captain mumblefuck.

                    Will national win solely because of your moniker? Nope. Does it give them a wee bit of help? Yes. Does it do anything to help labour or the left get their shit together and/or introduce farther-left policies? Nope.

              • Populuxe1

                The corollary of that is, of course, that regardless of whether Helen Clark is or is not in the closet (and it’s really none of our business one way or the other – I’m not speculating on that), (and it maters not a jot) it’s a very sad state of affairs that so many people make this assumption that she’s hiding her sexuality so that she could get ahead in politics. It’s sad that we live in a culture where that would even be a consideration.

              • David H

                I call him Captain Stutterbum my self. Both names have the same meaning. Go and learn how to speak off the cuff, without 2 weeks practicing in front of the fucking mirror! Them maybe, and just maybe with a couple of tons of luck, we may take Shearer seriously, that and stepping down and apologising to the wider membership for being a fool.

            • felixviper 17.5.1.1.1.3

              “You’ve provided a nice little disparaging nickname that can be the replacement for the innuendo about HC’s orientation.”

              Wow. That’s just… wow.

              What was it you were saying about hyperbolic bullshit?

              • McFlock

                snickering little comments for toryboys to use rather than looking at reality, is what I mean.

                • felixviper

                  Yeah, except that it’s true.

                  • McFlock

                    aye, true enough for a given margin for error.

                    I still think it’s doing nact’s job for them, though.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I still think it’s doing nact’s job for them, though.

                      Reality check. I really doubt that it’s us commoners outside Parliament who are keeping Labour at around 31%-32% polling.

                    • McFlock

                      That’s one interpretation of the polls. Don’t agree with it myself, though.

                    • Mary

                      “I still think it’s doing nact’s job for them, though.”

                      Accepting Labour’s treatment of beneficiaries is the same as doing Nact’s job for them because Labour’s position on social security is the same as Nact’s. Some even say that what Labour did in 2004 and 2007 was worse because basic cornerstones of the social security system were removed, a view that’s in lots of ways quite true. Do you think in such a scenario we should start supporting Nact because they’ve become “the lesser of two evils”? I’d like to think we wouldn’t be so defeatist.

                    • McFlock

                      Nope.

                      I’d expect people to go greens or mana or alliance in droves. But I’d also expect the most effort and passion to be expended on attacking the worse enemy.

    • MrSmith 17.6

      This is starting to feel like a re-run of the last election tho McFlock, maybe the Labour will get over the line this time but the sooner the Greens start to dominate this coalitions the better, then I suggest they sweep up what’s left of the Labour party an into the compost with them.

      In todays world I would have thought you need a few things to lead a government or political party.

      1) Quick-wittiness would be handy.

      2) At-least try to answer just about any question asked of you, clearly and confidently, even if you don’t have the correct answer. (remind you of someone)

      3) Sell a clear vision&message that you can articulate in a language that everyone can understand.

      4) You’d have to know your lines of-course, today more than ever, and should be able to anticipate questions you are likely to be asked, ‘in advance’.

      5) Lastly practice, practice, practice giving answers to those questions that haven’t been asked and may never be, over and over and over again until you get them right.

      Anyone seen this person?

      • Colonial Viper 17.6.1

        You also need strong debate sparring partners to practice against in private, ones who really understand and can use the National/neoliberal perspective against you.

  18. Shona 18

    From now on Shearer will always be referred to as Captain Mumblefuck in our house. Simply brilliant! What an excellent New Year wakethefuckup rant.

    • Rhinoviper 18.1

      I also think that “Outside Left” is also a moniker to be used and thrown back at those who would use it to belittle and marginalise critics.

      Who’s “inside”? Those in a very exclusive New England WASP golf club or those in a bunker? Which is the most attractive? Well, it doesn’t matter, because both are doomed by history one way or another.

  19. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 19

    Post may contain traces of peanuts left over by monkeys in the Cirque du …Merde.

    Why when I click on ‘Why the February vote’.. in the left hand list do I
    get sent to Gimme Sense? No smart answers please.

  20. Tiresias 20

    What I believe – and hope – we’re seeing is the almost inevitable consequence of Proportional Representation.

    The old two-party system which was an almost inevitable consequence of First-Past-the-Post is crumbling. Even in the UK where they don’t have PR yet the last citizenty indicated they wanted it by breaking the mould in the last election with the Tories forced into coalition with the Liberal-Democrats as people switched to the Lib Dems in large numbers from both the Tories and Labour. Unfortunately Clegg has turned out to be another Obama and betrayed those who supported him just as Winston Peters did here in 1996 and will likely suffer as Peters did in 1999 but the result was that having broken the habit of a life time and voting for a third-party, many more voters than has been the case see it as a realistic option. In consequence the Tories in the UK are watching the growth of UKIP to their right while the Greens won their first ever Commons seat in 2011 and are becoming a serious worry to Labour.

    “The Left” has always been a sack of cats with a far wider range of sincerely held views on where we should be going and how to get there, and has committed suicide at the polls far more often than the Right has won power on its merits despite the Right having a much less complex message and hence greater coherence. The hissing and bitching of authors like the one above is merely symptomatic of the sqabbling that has riven the Left from the beginning – get three socialists in a room and you’ll have six opinions.

    David Shearer for all his vaunted qualities as a peace-keeper and aid worker clearly can’t manage the sack of cats that is the Labour Party. I think that’s a pity as to my mind he’s one of the few genuine people in Parliament. He isn’t slick, he isn’t quick with the witty repartee, he doesn’t present himself as Captain Marvell. If he actually won the Prime Ministership I think he’d probably do his best to do the right things for the country in the six-weeks or so that he had before he was stabbed in the back by some charismatic sociopath who secretly believes he was born to be Prime Minister just as the present incumbent does.

    But in the long run it doesn’t matter. Over the next decade Labour and National will both dwindle as new parties come and either find a constituence or go – as Labour has already experienced with the Maori Party and National with Act. Some will be flashes in the pan, others will take seed and mature. Single party government – and statements like “Labour will win the next election” – will be history. Parliament itself will become a sack of cats some poor bugger will have to try to get to yowl in some semblence of coherence, Government will become unstable Italian-style, and we’ll probably be as close to a true democracy as its possible to get.

    Personally I’m looking forward to it, particularly as it means that if I don’t like what the Party I supposed yesterday are doing or who it’s being led by I won’t be limited to bitching about it but voting for it anyway.

  21. the sprout 21

    Great post QoT, hear hear.
    I would shut up if Mumblefuck insists on a party vote to legitimise his leadership, but frankly, I expect him and the ABC flying monkey squad to try everything they possibly can to avoid a democratic vote on his leadership.

    • AmaKiwi 21.1

      If Mumblefuck, Robertson, Goff, King, and Ducky succeed in blocking a primary election, it will be the biggest favor the LP ever did for the Greens and Mana.

      • xtasy 21.1.1

        Sounds like the “Gang of Four” to me, similar to what happened in Mainland China after the death of Mao Dse Dong, where his wife was suspected of conspiracies with a few others!?

        “GANG OF FOUR”, what a good and fitting name for the ones in control there?!

  22. xtasy 22

    After presenting to us his “great” apron before the Christmas barbeque, I have heard rumours that David Shearer has sent one or two of his staffers around Auckland (Ponsonby), to find a neat little skirt and maybe even leotard outfit to wear on the “Big Gay Out Auckland” coming up before the vote in February.

    He has learned from John Key that this is a venue to have some fun and laughs, to get a few votes from a caring and highly entertaining social group, who are all so loving and just enjoy a great fun event, to feel equal to all of us.

    So be ready now, David will come, dress up as Dame Edna Average or similar, doing a twist dance on the stage, lifting the skirt a bit, to show his shaved (sheared) bold and pretty legs, and he is going to be ON the news then also, competing for popular appeal and attention with John, da old boy from Hawaii.

    This will be the “game changer”, will charm David the Cunning Liffe (or lippe), and it will wipe the dance floors, to make David the Charmer (shorn Shearer) now, the winner for 2013, never mind 2014.

  23. xtasy 23

    Come on QoTViper:

    With the Imperial Japanese colours behind him, Shearer is destined to be a “success”, of course, the Empire rules and will rule, and if there is dissent, it gets dealt with resolutely.

    I am waiting for some kamikaze action from the hero up the front (Chris not so “hip” Hipkins), who shat on Cunliffe something big, he is welcomed to ram his little plane right down into the target, but as we know kamikaze pilots hardly ever survived their “hits”.

    Yes, interesting weeks lie ahead, but like many, I am fearing, fearing, dreadful developments and times ahead. Hence I remain robustly adament, a NEW LEFT PARTY without the unhealthy baggage Labour carry is totally overdue and NEEDED!

    Break this sick cycle of little more or less right of centre, prentending to be “left” of nowhere, and get the whole gang in caucus sacked!

  24. shorts 24

    simply put Labour is a total and utter shambles… but I disagree about a new left party

    we’ve got it in the Greens

    Labours task is to either get its house sorted and be that which it pretends to be or contiue to fall

    the rest is merely rearranging chairs and putting up bunting… the public get enough of that from National – and they dominate the media cycle (as they are so good at it), so Labour has to do the unthinkable – move to the left and be unapologetic about that

  25. Te Reo Putake 25

    Interesting, but irrelevant post QOT. The party is actually in great shape, the majority of members are happy with Shearer, particularly after the truly excellent speech at conference. Membership is up, prospects are good and the polls are heading in the right direction. Happily, the wishful thinking of non-Labour voters isn’t going to change that for the worse and the Labour/Green government that we will have in 2 years (or less) may turn out to be a fundamental shift in power in NZ.

    I don’t mind the carping, it’s good to have the party poked with a sharp stick occasionally. But the future is ours to write. It’s going to take good policy and hard work, but the next Government is going to make it all worthwhile.

    The Feb vote will not only confirm the current leadership, it will confirm the strength of the democratisation process that was formalised at conference. The LP and the Greens will be able to go into coalition knowing that they both have genuine support in their parties, expressed democratically. For the future, that means policy that the members want has a greater chance of getting to become legislation. That will be a first in Kiwi politics.

    The reason I say this post is irrelevant is because the voting public don’t read the Standard (more’s the pity). They will elect the next government despite the whingeing. Sorry to have to inject some reality into the proceedings, but that’s life.

    If any readers want to make a difference, instead of sitting on the sidelines whistling in the wind, join the party of your preference. Hint, the bigger the party is in the coalition, the more chance your preferred policy will become law.

    • felixviper 25.1

      I thought fisiani had been banned…

      • David H 25.1.1

        I thought it was Pete George in disguise, has that same stink to it, you know sycophancy.

    • Pascal's bookie 25.2

      TRP. Perhaps you ought to lobby caucus to take a really obvious step that would demonstrate once and for all Shearer’s broad support within the party.

      Not a challenge in Feb, but a vote of confidence from the party in Shearer’s leadership from the whole party. Clear everything up nice and clean and tidy like, with no room for dispute.

    • Colonial Viper 25.3

      Hint, the bigger your preferred party is in the coalition, the more chance your preferred policy will become law.

      Just for clarity’s sake TRP ;)

      • Mary 25.3.1

        Yes, and while a Left coalition without Labour is something we should ultimately be aiming for, the best we can manage for now is likely to be a Left coalition with the minimum amount of support from Labour to enable such a coalition to form. Of course, a Left coalition with Labour is an oxymoron, but I guess that’s life.

      • Te Reo Putake 25.3.2

        Cheers, CV, quite right, that’s what I meant to say.

        • Oscar 25.3.2.1

          TRP reads like Jordan Carter who after the 2008 and 2011 elections stuck to the same message

          “The Voters Gave LABOUR a big tick of NOT FIT TO LEAD”

          Hmmph. Honestly. Perhaps in 2008 the voters got sick of Labour.
          In 2011, Labour came soooo close. But the mistake of leaving Goff off the billboards gave the voters the impression the party was without a head.

          Now in 2012, who’s the head? It sure as fuck ain’t mumblefuck.

          TRP – if the membership is really that happy with Shearer. Then get Mumblefuck to let us vote. Let us VOTE. The membership count is up you say? OOOH, do you think that could have something to do with people rejoining the party based on the many many inaccurate ejerkulations made by people on the blogs after mumblefuck won “join the party, get a vote in february” misleading people into believing they could vote out the fucker from the leadership???? Nah, probably didn’t cross your twitter message sized thought bank right?

          You do know what a VOTE is right? The principle of One WO/MAN One VOTE. You know, power to the people, democracy of the people, by the people, for the people?

          Mumblefucks been having a bit too much arrack with mogadishan warlords on his summer holidays up norf methinks.

          You do realise of course, if mumblefuck chooses to browbeat pissant labour MPs into following his way or the highway, people will seek to destablise the labour party as a party fit to govern? I don’t think the party would really be happy with people wearing the following tshirts

          “DAVD SHEARER: NOT AS BAD AS THE KHMER ROUGE”
          “DAVID SHEARER: NOT QUITE THE MUMBLEFUCK”
          “DAVID SHEARER: VOTE FOR PEDRO”
          “DAVID SHEARER: NOT AS BAD AS IDI AMIN”
          “DAVID SHEARER: GIVER OF MANGO SKINS”

          Can you just start seeing the bullshit that 2013 and 2014 will give us?

          Of course, the scary thing is, it doesn’t even appear to have jaywalked across anyones minds in LABOUR that KEY could easily pull a snapperlection before 2014. All he needs is some dutch courage and paddy gower and boom, third term natzional.

          So if LABOUR really want to just stop this bullshit, they WILL DEMAND that Shearer let the fucking members VOTE, DAMMIT!

          • Colonial Viper 25.3.2.1.1

            Yeah. The Labour membership deserves to be given a democratic chance to confirm David Shearer’s leadership in February. Settle the damn issue then and move on to 2014.

            • Te Reo Putake 25.3.2.1.1.1

              The issue is settled, CV. The conference votes to dramatically change the process, but as caucus is the trigger for a wider vote and caucus is not going to make that happen, Shearer will be leading the party to some sort of a victory in a couple of years. Can we talk about policy yet? That’s the important bit!

              • Mary

                “…Shearer will be leading the party to some sort of a victory in a couple of years… Can we talk about policy yet? That’s the important bit!”

                Not so sure whether there’ll be victory in 2014, but policy’s certainly the important bit. Only problem is getting Labour to discuss its “policy”. Just ask Ardern if Labour stands by the damage it did to social security last time it was let loose, whether they plan to apologise and reverse that damage and start rebuilding a caring social welfare system; or whether they intend to continue with their attacks on the poor in the way that’s no different to what the current government is doing now. Her failure to answer will leave no choice but to continue to shun Labour and its right-wing welfare agenda. If that means going full circle and bagging Shearer then so be it.

              • Colonial Viper

                The issue is settled, CV.

                Can caucus be really happy going forwards into an election cycle with a half-hearted membership and activist base? A base which feels like they were never given a chance to confirm David Shearer democratically?

                Or would caucus like to go into 2014 with a much larger, very highly energised and 110% enthusiastic membership. One which has many new activists.

                Because that kind of positive upswell is what caucus will get if they allow the wider membership to participate in confirming the Labour Leader.

    • Saarbo 25.4

      TRP,

      Like many over the Christmas period, I have been speaking to people who I don’t normally speak to. I spoke to a number of people who voted for National in 2008 and 2011 but have now become disillusioned, reality has hit them…National are useless. These people are looking for alternatives.

      As a Labour member it was sad to note that all of the people I spoke to, none saw Labour as the alternative party to vote for…the main reason is because people simply don’t trust the group that are leading Labour caucus. When I told people that I have become a member of The LP, I received a myriad of responses. None of the responses were positive. This surprised me as many of the people I spoke to were public servants. The perception of Labour is very negative, some of this is to do with a very slick PR campaign by National but also Shearers 2012 performance, the fact that the Greens continually trump Labour in the MSM on the big issues, and the Greens appear to be well run and with unity (this by comparison shows how badly Labour is being run).

      You are also wrong about what most of the members are thinking, in our branch most of the members are not impressed with Shearer’s performance over 2012 and also unimpressed with the way Shearer has treated Cunliffe after the conference.

      You talk about injecting some reality into the proceedings, quite frankly you have no idea about reality. I suspect TRP that you are operating on hope and optimism rather than reality. In my view as a relatively new member (but a long time Labour Supporter), your attitude is a symptom of what is wrong with Labour. The absolute arrogance by a small clique that Labour are going to walk into power in 2014. Well given my anecdotal evidence you (and the small elite clique leading Labour) are dreaming.

      • Te Reo Putake 25.4.1

        I don’t know of any senior Labour Party people who think we will sleepwalk to victory. What I said was: “It’s going to take good policy and hard work, but the next Government is going to make it all worthwhile. ”

        There is still a big job in front of us, LP, Green or Mana, to make sure we see the back of this most dismal of governments. But I’m always optimistic; perhaps that’s why I’m a socialist.

    • Blue 25.5

      Geez, TRP. My first thought reading this was that someone had hacked your account.

      There’s optimism and then there’s delusion. You’re usually on the right side of that line, but not this time.

      • Tiger Mountain 25.5.1

        Don’t mention the war TRP.

        The LP people have well after time had a stab at giving the ordinary member more democracy but it would still seem well short of absolute say, above caucus and the parliamentary wing. The thing is the leadership is couched by msm as a win/lose and the constant revisiting of this just encourages the sporting metaphor. “Welcome to loserville, population -you!”

        How outrageous, Labour proposes building more houses and creating more jobs and it is portrayed as the end of days by the Natz. So Labour basically needs to urgently acquire some class understanding and oomph or it is hasta la vista baby.

    • QoT 25.6

      There’s only one aspect of your comment I really want to highlight, TRP.

      Membership is up

      You are a regular commenter here. You cannot have missed the huge calls post-conference for people to join Labour specifically so they get a vote in the February leadership contest, if there is one.

      So you’re seriously going to cite increased membership as an endorsement of Shearer’s leadership?

      That pretty much says it all for how you’re approaching the current status of the Labour Party.

      Oh, one other thing: the whole “you’re just a loser with a keyboard hiding in a dark room” line was sad and pathetic when David “I don’t read blogs” Shearer said it … it’s even more so when coming from another online commenter.

      • Te Reo Putake 25.6.1

        Q, if people join under the leadership of Shearer, then you are correct that can be seen as an endorsement of Shearers leadership. But if people joined because of the possibility of a vote on the leadership, then that’s equally valid. Either way, membership goes up which is great news.

        “Oh, one other thing: the whole “you’re just a loser with a keyboard hiding in a dark room” line was sad and pathetic when David “I don’t read blogs” Shearer said it … it’s even more so when coming from another online commenter.”

        Who said that? I must have missed that one, citation please?

  26. Fortran 26

    It would appear that the only winners in 2014 will be the Greens.
    Along with their organised mentors Greenpeace they will have more paid up members than Labour.
    They are greater activists, not afarid to physically to create disunity in the general public’s eyes – any publicity is good – like chopping down other party hoardings the lying about the activists. Blocking ships in harboue – assisting Watson and his whaling policies (I hate whaling too).
    They do not care about anybody – only their political and social outcomes.
    They will quite happily lie and cheat, as their outcome is all that matters.
    In good old days Labour and the Unions were the activists, but now there is so much talk and no action.
    What really did the MUNZ protest actually achieve – very little, and the public generally were not on side with the “inconvenience” it created – not the cause. The media came on board too late.

    • karol 26.1

      Nice try for an anti-Green smear, Fortran, to try to divert attention from the problems with the current LP caucus leadership. So the GP are puppets of Greenpeace?

      Nope, not among their list of networked groups.
      Do you have any evidence of the accusations you make @ 9.49am?

      They do not care about anybody – only their political and social outcomes.
      They will quite happily lie and cheat, as their outcome is all that matters

      The transparent democratic processes of the Green Party give the lie to this smear.

    • Mary 26.2

      Too much shit in what you say to sift through. If I were you I’d save it all up for Cameron Slater’s work of art.

    • QoT 26.3

      Dude, did you miss the memo? Your anti-environment masters finally figured out that hating on Greenpeace is a damn fool idea, since the whole reason they have such a large membership is that they actually have quite broad appeal with the NZ public.

      You’re meant to link the Greens with Sea Shepherd now. There’s a good little parrot.

    • felixviper 26.4

      “They do not care about anybody – only their political and social outcomes.”

      That’s just awesome.

    • bad12 26.5

      Take out the word Green, insert National, and give your comment 1 or 2 very small tweaks and hey you could be talking about the past 4 years of this Slippery lead National Government…

  27. Ennui in Requiem 27

    Shorts, What the hell makes you think the Greens are “socialist” per se? Is this the same as QOTs assumption that Labour should represent the best interests of the New Zealand leftwing?

    • Shorts 27.1

      I don’t and didn’t say they’re socialists. I do think they espouse left leaning policy and action and do so better than labour currently – that could easily change and by my own preference will

    • QoT 27.2

      My actual statement was,

      If caucus [once again] makes a decision which is blatantly not in the best interests of the New Zealand leftwing

      These days we’re seeing a lot of people ignore the raw Labour polling data (and with good reason, for them) and talk about the “combined left vote” or similar terms.

      As much as Labour doesn’t actually want to admit it (see: Shane Jones), they are currently, and for at least the next election, the biggest member of the combined left vote. When Labour voters get disaffected, a few go to the Greens, a few may even go to NZF or UF or Mana, but a fuckload do not show up to vote. Meaning National stomps home to victory once more with ~45% and a few patsy allies.

      If Labour so desperately wants to create an actual left government in this country (yes, even if by centrist standards) it can’t afford to continue sucking the life out of left/centre-left voters. In my opinion, a bullied-into-unity caucus vote for Shearer in February does exactly that.

      • Ennui in Requiem 27.2.1

        Dont disagree with what you say. Its more fundamental: I (from experience and as a past member of Labour) really dont see them as a left wing or socialist party. Should we get a Lab / Green government I dont believe for a second that we will have a government of the “left”. There are too many structures (mainly corporatist) in the whole “system” to allow that to happen, and Labour (plus Green) tacitly accept this. We will be sold short voting for those who pretend to be “our left”.

        • QoT 27.2.1.1

          Yes, but it’s just clunky to say “a left government within the boundaries of leftwing politics permitted by globalised free market capitalism” every single time.

  28. Rosie 28

    Lol times amongst bad times – thats essential therapy in these dark days. I was drawn in by the most hilarious Shearer meme. It made my morning!

    Oh, and great article too:-) Love ya work QOT!

  29. Jackal 29

    The Green’s have an open system whereby people can say what they want. There’s simply no negative commentary currently coming from Green members because there’s very little if anything to criticize.

    But when you compare that with your perceived problem within Labour to try and justify your headline, and then move into rant mode by saying:

    Clare Curran’s alleged lady-boner for outing critics notwithstanding – is to do your fucking job. With, like, at least a semblance of competence.

    …Things get a little bit fucked!

    I personally have no problem with various criticism of David Shearer when they’re justified. However his critics including yourself have not been able to verify what exactly he’s doing wrong? Oh no! He might mumble some words sometimes, how terrible… That’s hardly a reason to say Shearer is being incompetent as leader of the opposition.

    The problem here is that you seem to be expecting perfection when politics is simply not like that. Having said that, David Shearer will be a better PM than John Key, and the disproportionate amount of criticism many so-called left wing bloggers have shown Labour recently is obviously wrong! My colour is Green, what’s yours?

    Generalized comments about how terrible somebody is without actual specifics just seems like manipulation to me… With only your seat warmers comment having any semblance of truth. Say something often enough and some people will start to believe it I suppose, but it’s a weak and regurgitated argument QOT. Yawn!

    • Ennui in Requiem 29.1

      +1
      Thanks Jackal. To quote a bard currently in Heaven “Expectation is the root of all heartache”.

    • QoT 29.2

      his critics including yourself have not been able to verify what exactly he’s doing wrong

      Here’s the entirety of my writing on David Shearer. I’m sure you’ll find one or two arguments in there somewhere.

  30. Rosie 30

    One more thing. Even IF there is a leadership change in the NZLP in February and we can all shout hurrah!!! and crack open the bubbly, what happens next? How do Parties/Activists/Individuals engage an apathetic/uninformed/disillusioned voter base? We have one problem with an underperforming main opposition party but also a huge problem with the very people that put governments into place.

  31. hush minx 31

    A possible plan-trying to tell Labour mps that voting in February to enable the members to have their say is what the party needs to gain strength and purpose. It’s not about any one individual (although the abc’s would like to portray it as being so), it’s about talking and walking the essence of who and what Labour is trying to represent. Challenging isn’t always about undermining – we set ourselves challenges in life when we strive for more. That’s what we want for Labour (well I do, anyway).
    And I do not believe the party is in great shape. Certainly not from the members and supporters I talk to.To say otherwise seems arrogant to me in light of the strength of feeling shown at conference. But even if they are 110% behind the current leadership give them the opportunity to voice it, and celebrate.

  32. michael 32

    There seems to be a wide gulf between what the Labour caucus want (office, power, perks, jobs after leaving politics etc) and what the Labour party members want (social justice, government machinery that works, curbing of corporate rapacity etc). Perhaps the latter group should leave the former to it and just start a new party/ How about “True Labour”? I think the biggest vote of all in 2014 will be the “no vote” (ie those who don’t bother with the whole sorry farrago), which means the right will win again (even if “Labour lite” does move back into the Beehive).

    • McFlock 32.1

      do you really think that every Labour caucus member is just after power and perks, not social justice?
      Having seen one or two of them in action, I disagree strongly.

      • Michael 32.1.1

        Perhaps some hide their ambitions better than others. I judge people by their actions, too, and I haven’t seen Labour MPs go out on a limb for the people the party was formed to represent for many years – including their time in government and in opposition. IMHO, no Labour party worth the name would have enacted the Working For Families legislation and deliberately starved children in order to force their sick, disabled, unemployed, injured, or simply single, parents into paid employment (Read the CPAG cases in the Human Rights Review Tribunal, High Court and Court of Appeal for a judicially-sanitised but still horrific account of the tale). There are many other examples, too numerous and too depressing to mention. Again IMHO, no Labour party worth the name would condone (by their silence mainly) National’s brutal “medical assessment regime” of the sick and disabled (read all the material on the UK welfare “reforms”, including the dirty tricks played by insurers who make massive profits from shafting the sick and disabled. See ACC’s track record for a view of what happens here and will happen once the Welfare Working Group gets its “reforms” of WINZ up and running. The WWG members, by and large, feed from the public troughs and both ACC and WINZ). Why aren’t Labour leading their people into the streets against these abuses of power instead of pocketing their latest pay rise? J’accuse.

        • Mary 32.1.1.1

          “There are many other examples, too numerous and too depressing to mention … Why aren’t Labour leading their people into the streets against these abuses of power instead of pocketing their latest pay rise?”

          Yes, there are many, many examples which together show pretty clearly that Labour’s beyond redemption. All the talk of “giving Labour a chance” and that they’re “the lesser of two evils” is gutless stuff. We’ve waited far too long. Labour need to hear a far stronger message that’s backed up by real action, which is rediscover what it’s like being a party of the Left, or you’re toast. It would be great if Labour did get that message but it’s unlikely in the near future because there are too many people, including many in the membership, who don’t understand the seriousness of what they’ve done. I predict they’re going to have to spend some serious time in purgatory for things to sink in, and then some more to give us time to learn how to believe and trust them again, if that’s at all possible. In the meantime we need to be relentless in our criticism of what they’ve become.

  33. Te Reo Putake 33

    And, by way of contrast, here’s a positive leadership change in India:

    Stalin will be my successor, DMK chief says:

    http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-07/india/36191736_1_dmk-president-party-general-council-dmk-patriarch-m-karunanidhi

  34. Ennui in Requiem 34

    What a column: resonated in Purgatory where there is a special section for faux aristocrats from the “left” (whatever the “left” is going from the above). Have to say Shearer has done really well, he has got the whole “left'” growling at one another whilst he glides smoothly up the “centre” greased with “support” from Matthew Ho-down. Down in Hell they would set fired to Shearers grease, up there, who can and will burn him?

  35. McFlock 35

    Well, I’ve gone through yesterday’s debate and frankly yes, in places I failed to express myself clearly, used inappropriate comparisons, conflated different comment threads, and (what I don’t normally do, and which really didn’t help) got genuinely angry at the sheer stupidity of the entire discussion on all sides. So sorry for my part in that. I didn’t intentionally misinterpret what people said, but I was/am tired at the moment (believe it or not, I don’t give a shit RV), so I apologise for that if people think in places I was particularly unfair, too.

    I still stand by the gist of what I was trying to say, though (even if I fucked up the expression of it).

    But the thought that occurred to me last night is that there’s no “endgame” to this debate. Nobody’s introducing new evidence, so it’s unlikely I (for example) will be persuaded this week that Shearer is completely terrible. Similarly, I don’t think I’ll get anywhere doing the opposite. There don’t seem to be any new arguments, so I’m not learning anything that way, either.

    This entire discussion just seems to be a pointless waste that serves only to aid and comfort the nacts and polarise their opponents against each other. I regret even getting involved..

    It’s just so fucking depressing.

    • Colonial Viper 35.1

      But there is a potential and very beneficial end game. It energises Labour and hugely increases momentum going into 2014. Let the membership democratically confirm the Leadership in Feb. Show those leaning towards the Greens that we are also a very democratic party at heart. And in the process re-engage ordinary members, bring back highly motivated activists and bring onboard the ordinary public.

    • just saying 35.2

      There is no endgame in any political debate.
      Just unfolding events.

      It occurred to me that one of the threads of your argument seemed to be “why now”? “what’s so different about Labour now?”

      It seems to me that more and more members of this forum are drawing, or have drawn a line in the sand. There may have been a particular event, but it is the accumulation that is important.

      I had a similar experience before I joined and was active in the Alliance some years ago. I can’t remember now what particular incident triggered the move, but I well remember the accumulation of outrage finally spilling over into active resistance.

  36. ad 36

    Top work QoT keep the pressure up for a strong Left leadership.

  37. ad 37

    …and with the posts that followed in the next day, it shows why QoT is turning into the hard Left’s Duncan Garner of attack-dogs. And it’s about time they had one.

  38. ad 38

    We will know within 10 days whether there will be any spill or not.

  39. ad 39

    Personalisation from Bowalley Road doesn’t help in any form.

  40. ad 40

    Good to see Labour MPs beginning to wake up in the media now.

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    Its our future | 29-10
  • Trade Deal Threatens Farmers and Food Businesses
    Press Release – GE Free NZ The secret Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations are a direct threat to food businesses and farmers, and a moratorium on the release of GE crops must be enshrined in law before the TPP is signed.Trade...
    Its our future | 29-10
  • The latest poverty excuses
    Today, the National Government managed to out produce Fonterra in its production of hot air and manure, with their explanations to justify the figures released in the latest (UNICEF) report documenting how little John Key’s administration has done to reduce...
    Closing the Gap | 29-10
  • TPPA causing concern
    Press Release – Joint Press Release Concern over the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) negotiations is being expressed in two public meetings over the next week; one at a presentation on 5th November by former councillor Robin Gwynn to the...
    Its our future | 29-10
  • CTU announces election of new Secretary
    The contested election for the position of CTU Secretary has been won by Sam Huggard. Sam officially takes office on Monday 1 December 2014. Sam has worked in the union movement and brings a wealth of experience and a commitment...
    CTU | 29-10
  • Why my money’s on David Parker. And why Labour’s should be as well!
    OK, eventually you have to put your money where your mouth is. So who, of the four declared contestants – Nanaia Mahuta, Grant Robertson, Andrew Little and David Parker –  should, in my opinion, win the Labour leadership contest? And...
    Brian Edwards | 29-10
  • Arming police: evidence based policy or populist wishlist?
    At a time when people are questioning whether police forces in the United States have become too militarized, the president of New Zealand’s police association (NZPA) is calling for our police to be “fully armed”. He claims that incidents that...
    On the Left | 29-10
  • Flags > Poverty
    Today in parliament we saw both Kelvin Davis and Annette King make important and useful requests, both of which were denied. Annette King drew attention to the UNICEF report that shows that child poverty has not improved in New Zealand,...
    Fundamental | 29-10
  • Worker’s rights dealt severe blow with Bill’s passing
    The passing of the Employment Relations Amendment Bill is another blow to workers' rights in New Zealand, the Green Party said today.This afternoon, National's Employment Relations Amendment Bill passed with the support of Act and United Future."This bill will force...
    Greens | 30-10
  • Barriers to reporting sex crimes must go
    Both the Government and police need to take action to ensure that, in future, sexual abuse victims know they will be taken seriously, Labour’s Associate Police spokesperson Kelvin Davis says. “The young women involved in the Roast Busters case, and...
    Labour | 30-10
  • Te Wakaputanga – What we did not learn at school
    This week saw the 179th anniversary of the signing of Te Wakaputanga, the Declaration of Independence of the United Tribes of Niu Tireni. Most of us did not learn about this fundamentally critical document at school, we barely learned about...
    Greens | 30-10
  • NZ goes backwards on gender equality
    It is no coincidence that in the same week New Zealand is singled out for going backwards on child poverty under National,  we’ve also dropped in global rankings for gender equality. In one year New Zealand has dropped from 7th...
    Greens | 30-10
  • Kevin Hague questions the Minister of Health on management of Katherine Ric...
    Is he satisfied that all conflicts of interest that arose by the head of Food and Grocery Council Katherine Rich being a member of the Health Promotion Agency were managed in accordance with the provisions of the Crown Entities Act...
    Greens | 30-10
  • Bennett parks numbers on social housing
    Social Housing Minister Paula Bennett admitted today that well over 1000 families have been subsidised through the accommodation supplement to stay in the Ranui campground, somewhere she has previously described as not the right place for children to be growing...
    Labour | 30-10
  • 50,000 sign petition against anti-worker law
    More than 50,000 Kiwis have signed Labour’s petition against the Government’s scrapping of tea break entitlements, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “That’s the equivalent of five people signing our petition every minute for a week. It shows the...
    Labour | 30-10
  • Address in Reply Debate – Dr Kennedy Graham on UN Security Council- 2...
    In the Speech from the Throne last week the Prime Minister identified the usual domestic goals for his Government. I counted 17. They are not my subject today. I wish instead to focus on matters beyond our shores. In the...
    Greens | 30-10
  • Climate change harming ocean health
    New Zealand is responsible for one of the largest areas of sea in the world – an area 14 times the size of our land area. The National Government is promising new marine protected areas legislation with a discussion document...
    Greens | 30-10
  • Key misled public over Jason Ede
    Information contained in a new chapter of the book Key: Portrait of a Prime Minister, that Jason Ede stopped working for the National Party on the night the book Dirty Politics was released, shows Mr Key and senior ministers hid...
    Greens | 29-10
  • Greenpeace report highlights better path for NZ agriculture
    A Greenpeace International report highlights a better way forward for New Zealand agriculture than the GE and chemical mutation technologies supported by Federated Farmers, and the National Government through its research funding packages, the Green Party said today. "This report...
    Greens | 29-10
  • BNZ post record profits while leaving savers vulnerable
    A small part of the $850 million record profit posted by the Bank of New Zealand (BNZ) today needs to be set aside to protect savers' deposits in the future, said Green Party Co-leader Dr Russel Norman today.Dr Norman was...
    Greens | 29-10
  • RBNZ U-turn shows monetary settings were wrong
    The Reserve Bank's U-turn on interest rates today shows monetary policy settings were wrong and New Zealanders have suffered unnecessarily through the loss of jobs and having to pay higher interest rates, the Green Party said today.Reserve Bank Governor Graeme...
    Greens | 29-10
  • Ports must take responsibility for shameful death toll
    Port companies must step up and take responsibility for a shameful toll of seven deaths and 133 serious accidents in the past three years, Labour MP Iain Lees-Galloway says. The frightening figures – released by the Rail, Maritime and Transport...
    Labour | 29-10
  • Please help me get my Feed the Kids Bill to Select Committee
    Last week I took over the Feed the Kids Bill that Hone Harawira had introduced to Parliament. If passed, my Bill will provide government-funded breakfast and lunch in all decile 1 and 2 schools. Hungry kids can’t learn and are...
    Greens | 29-10
  • TVNZ Outsourcing Pasifika and Maori Programmes
    I’ve always been a big fan of our state broadcaster and I’ve particularly liked their range of current events programmes. But after Friday’s announcement that TVNZ will be sacking up to 40 staff by contracting out the Pacific and Maori...
    Greens | 29-10
  • Labour urges iwi leaders to meet with National
    Labour’s Māori Caucus has called on iwi leaders and national Māori organisations to seek urgent meetings with the National Government to directly express their concerns about employment law changes which will harm Māori workers. In an open letter sent today...
    Labour | 29-10
  • ACC’s reputation needs fix, not glitz
    Restoring public trust and confidence in ACC will take a lot more than a new communications strategy or social media blitz, says Labour’s ACC spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway. “Under National, ACC has come to be perceived as insensitive, difficult to deal...
    Labour | 29-10
  • Lessons to be learned from police investigation
    The outcome of the so-called Roast Busters case should not put victims off reporting sexual crimes, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “This case has been mishandled from the start. Within days of police initially saying no charges had...
    Labour | 29-10
  • Anti-worker legislation is anti-Pacifica
    The Minister for Pacific Peoples, Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga, will go down in history as being part of a Government that harmed his own people through anti-worker legislation, says Labour’s Pacific Island Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio.  “Pacific people are among...
    Labour | 29-10
  • Five-year tax holiday for overseas tax dodgers
    National has just gifted a five-year tax holiday for foreign companies dodging their tax payments, says Revenue spokesperson David Clark. “Todd McClay has pretended he is doing something about overseas companies dodging their tax duties by joining an international initiative...
    Labour | 29-10
  • Traffic Jam Tax must be given the red light
    Auckland Council’s proposed Traffic Jam Tax could cost some households thousands of dollars a year just to use roads they had already paid for with their taxes and must be rejected, says Labour’s transport and Auckland Issues spokesperson Phil Twyford....
    Labour | 29-10
  • National has chance to show leadership on limos
    The National Party has the opportunity to show leadership by transitioning our vehicle fleet towards renewable electricity when a new contract to supply Government limousines for VIPs goes to tender next month, the Green Party said today. "This is a...
    Greens | 29-10
  • The Māori Party can’t have it both ways over labour laws
    The Māori Party has to fess up over its voting record on the Employment Relations Amendment Bill, says Labour’s Māori Caucus.  “It’s simply not good enough to oppose the bill at the same time  as they helped speed up its progress through...
    Labour | 29-10
  • Equal pay and the aged care sector
    Today the High Court upheld the historic ruling by the Employment Court that our Equal Pay Act could be used to consider work of equal value cases; the government has been telling the UN and ILO that it could for...
    Greens | 29-10
  • Court case perfect opportunity for Government to improve gender pay gap
    If the Government wants to halt New Zealand’s slump in international rankings on the gender pay gap it should act on the court finding that women deserve equal wages, Labour’s Women’s Affairs spokesperson Sue Moroney says. “The World Economic Forum’s...
    Labour | 28-10
  • All Auckland transport options should be considered
    All options for meeting Auckland's transport needs should be considered, including reprioritising the transport budget away from wasteful spending on motorways, the Green Party said today.Auckland mayor Len Brown is today releasing a transport report by the Independent Advisory Board,...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Another report highlights Govt failure on child poverty
    An international report measuring the impact of the Global Financial Crisis (GFC) on child poverty rates, showing children in New Zealand have done worse than children in other countries, is further proof the Government needs to urgently take additional steps...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Address and Reply Debate Part 55: Inequality and Disability
    I rise on behalf of the Green Party to talk about inequality and disability.The recent census showed that nearly one in four New Zealanders lives with a disability—up from one in five in the previous census. These figures include some...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Address and Reply Debate Part 55: Inequality and Disability
    I rise on behalf of the Green Party to talk about inequality and disability.The recent census showed that nearly one in four New Zealanders lives with a disability—up from one in five in the previous census. These figures include some...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Child poverty: No more wake-up calls
    A new report which shows the National Government has made no inroads whatsoever into child poverty should do more than just set alarm bells ringing, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “UNICEF’s  latest Innocenti Report Card highlights the fact...
    Labour | 28-10
  • Eugenie Sage speaks in the 2014 Address in Reply Debate
    I congratulate you, Assistant Speaker Mallard, as Assistant Speaker and look forward to your knowledge, your fairness, and your light touch in being a referee of proceedings in this House. I congratulate also the other Assistant Speaker, Lindsay Tisch; the...
    Greens | 28-10
  • James Shaw’s Maiden Speech
    Tena Koe, Mr Speaker. I would like to take this opportunity to speak a little of the past, the present and the future. The privilege to serve in this Parliament was given to me by all those who gave their...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Govt airs real views on public broadcasting
    An admission by the Government that it is happy to experiment with Pacific and Maori audiences shows just how weak its vision for public broadcasting in New Zealand is, Labour’s Broadcasting spokesperson Kris Faafoi says. “National today admitted it doesn’t...
    Labour | 28-10
  • Does Judith Collins have a get out of jail card?
    Former justice minister Judith Collins appears to have been gifted a get out of jail free card based on the Prime Minister’s answers in Parliament today, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “Judith Collins claimed in an Official Information...
    Labour | 28-10
  • Solid Energy decision delay sensible
    Today’s announcement by the Board of Solid Energy that it will delay making a final decision on re-entering the Pike River mine is a sensible move, Labour’s MP for  West Coast-Tasman Damien O’Connor says. “It has been clear for some...
    Labour | 28-10
  • New York Green Bank off to a $1B start
    New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced late last week the New York Green Bank’s first NZD$1 billion tranche of green energy investments. The projects, which are difficult for the private sector to finance, are now possible by New York Green...
    Greens | 28-10
  • Bartlett case means Govt must act on equal pay
    The Court of Appeal victory for Lower Hutt caregiver, Kristine Bartlett demonstrates that both the Government and employers have been ignoring and not fully implementing equal pay law, the Green Party said today.The Court of Appeal today upheld earlier rulings...
    Greens | 27-10
  • Rotorua shift for Maori TV a bizarre move
    The bizarre idea to move Maori TV to Rotorua is either poor planning or possible political interference that adds to the perception of a service in crisis, says Labour MP for Tamaki Makaurau Peeni Henare. “Moving Maori TV to Rotorua...
    Labour | 27-10
  • Second rate deal a no go – Goff
    A second rate deal on dairy in the TPP would totally contradict the agreed purpose of the Pacific trade agreement, Labour’s Trade spokesperson, Phil Goff says. “Both the origin of the trade negotiations and leaders’ statements on its objectives emphasise...
    Labour | 27-10
  • Legal victory a boost for all working women
    Today’s legal victory for equal pay is a much-needed boost for working women at a time when the Government is pushing through reforms which will make it harder for them to get pay rises, Labour’s Women’s Affairs spokesperson Sue Moroney...
    Labour | 27-10
  • National’s failed commodities export strategy exposed
    National's strategy to rely on commodities such as milk powder and logs has been exposed in the September trade figures released today, the Green Party said."National's strategy to hang all economic hope on exporting ever-increasing volumes of milk powder and...
    Greens | 23-10
  • Caution needed on calls to arm police
    There is no justification for routinely arming our police and doing so would change forever the way officers interact with their communities, Labour’s Associate Police spokesperson Kelvin Davis says. “As one of the few organisations distinguished by its unarmed status,...
    Labour | 23-10
  • Govt strains to get tea break law through
    The Government has been left with egg on its face - failing to get its much-vaunted, but hugely unpopular, meal break law passed in the first week of its new term, Labour spokesperson on Labour Issues Andrew Little says.“National desperately...
    Labour | 23-10
  • How low can you go? Mining the depths
    The company says there will be economic benefits, which the EEZ Act says the EPA must consider, but even these benefits are in doubt. The royalties while not set will be tiny, the profits will flow offshore, and whatever phosphate...
    Greens | 23-10
  • Fed Farmers defend GE Agriculture
    Federated Farmers, which represents a minority of farmers, appears to be captured by a pro-GE clique hell bent on increasing unsustainable technologies for the benefit of the herbicide and patent controlling seed companies. That there are better more sustainable farming...
    Greens | 23-10
  • Government loses the affordable housing race
    Nick Smith is dreaming if he thinks he can deliver affordable housing to Cantabrians on his current figures, says Labour’s Associate Housing spokesperson Poto Williams. “The Minister’s announcement that the Government will build 237 new homes, most of which will...
    Labour | 23-10
  • Labour’s thoughts with Canadians
    Labour has offered its sympathies to the family and friends of the Canadian soldier who died in what appears to be a premeditated and unprovoked attack while standing at guard at the Ottawa National War Memorial. “Our thoughts are also...
    Labour | 23-10
  • What next for TVNZ? Outsourcing the news?
    Television New Zealand’s decision to outsource Māori and Pacific programming is a real blow to the notion that our state broadcaster is a public broadcaster, says Labour. “CEO Kevin Kenrick has said today that TVNZ has ‘a very long and...
    Labour | 22-10
  • Green Party expresses sympathy for Canadian shooting victims
    The Green Party expressed its solidarity with Canadians and the Canadian Parliament today, offering its sympathy for family and friends of the soldier killed in the attack. "Our thoughts are with all those caught up in the shooting in Canada...
    Greens | 22-10
  • Poverty & inequality don’t need protest marches – they need a riot:...
    The global level of inequality continues to skyrocket… Number of billionaires doubled since financial crisis The number of billionaires has doubled since the start of the financial crisis, according to a major new report from anti-poverty campaigners. According to Oxfam,...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • If Key knows who Rawshark is…
    I’m sorry, what? John Key ‘given Rawshark’s name’The Prime Minister believes he knows who hacked Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater’s computer and produced the source material for Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics, according to a new edition of a recently published...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Child Poverty stats in NZ
    Child Poverty stats in NZ...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Crimes Act + Police Investigation = WTF
    Just to frame the farce that is the Roastbuster’s investigation and conclusion – here are the parts of the Crime Act http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/whole.html#DLM329057  the Roastbusters are proven to have violated – that the police (and some suspects!) themselves acknowledge occurred: Crimes...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Publishing Journalists’ Home Addresses Is A Tactic Of The Right, Not The ...
    I think I’m starting to get rather annoyed with the conduct of some pro-MANA people over this ongoing Parliamentary Services crew complement issue. Yes, we get that there are legitimate issues to be raised with how some political reporters in...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Aucklanders caught between a tarseal-addicted government and a weak mayor
    Len Brown’s proposal for motorway tolls to reduce congestion and provide funding for better public transport is a weak response to a critical issue. The $12 billion dollar shortfall on transport funding he talks about is mainly for projected new...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • A Very Weird Story: Deconstructing Darren Aronofsky’s Noah.
    NOAH is a curious movie. Conceived as a biblical epic, it’s target audience was originally the millions of Americans who regard the Bible as God’s inerrant word. With the sin-filled works of Hollywood forbidden to these true-believers, Christian movie-makers have developed...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • You Can Get Away With Rape In New Zealand
    Jessie Hume with last years petition against rape     The police have sent a strong message today.  In fact they’ve been sending a strong message for a while; a message that our government supports. “You can literally get away...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Roast Buster case – no charges. In the immortal words of NWA…
    Roast Busters case: No prosecutions Police are to make an announcement this afternoon on Operation Clover, the investigation into the “Roast Busters” allegations. The Herald understands the victim has been told that the alleged offenders will not be prosecuted due...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Key’s flag change distraction to cost $26million!
    No. Way. Bid to change NZ flag to cost millions The cost of holding two referendums and consulting on a change of flag has been estimated to be just under $26 million. Look. We all appreciate that the sleepy hobbits...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Why NZ Herald’s Labour Party crocodile tears are so audacious
    The front page the NZ Herald would use if they thought they could get away with it No one can take the recent columns by NZ Herald seriously… John Armstrong: Shadow lingers on National John Roughan: Labour’s leadership vote matters...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • The beginning of the end of Cameron Slater?
    Slater postings on man bizarre, court told A businessman has changed his appearance and had to install extra security at his home after Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater posted his business and personal documents online, he says. Mr Slater has...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • We are a milk power republic and Fonterra our unelected senate
    Wow. Just wow… Deputy mayor says he’ll be sacked South Taranaki deputy mayor Alex Ballantyne says he expects to be sacked because he has spoken out about the impact gasses coming from dumped Fonterra dairy products have had on his...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: “…But *actually* this is about ethics in political-game jo...
    Yesterday, a piece of mine on the recent revelations about Hone Harawira employing several gentlemen either accused or convicted of sex offences was published on The Daily Blog. Predictably, given the fierce loyalty which Hone inspires in his party faithful and...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • Privilege cheque
    There was no race problem in my childhood. Living in central Wellington I was well-insulated from what was going on not so far away. This was the 60s and 70s, where the teachers enjoyed free love in the staff room...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • A brief word on Key’s claim that it will be raining carnage
    Isis will ‘rain carnage on the world’ – John Key Left unchecked Isis would “rain carnage on the world”, Prime Minister John Key says, but he has yet to make a decision on whether New Zealand troops will join a...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • Meanwhile…
    ...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • How does Andrew Little win Labour Leadership and unify the caucus?
    Audrey Young’s excellent column on how the Caucus vote  is shaping up shows how Andrew Little becomes the next leader of the Labour Party. She identifies the factions as the following… Andrew Little 6: Andrew Little, David Cunliffe, Iain Lees Galloway,...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Trinder – Right of response to Curwen
    You have asked that Hone Harawira deserves to explain what happened, how would he explain when his next door neighbour is an alleged sex offender. What explanation can Hone offer he wasn’t involved, Hone had no idea this offending was...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: That Hella-Weird Feeling When You Defend Tova O’Brien
    Oh dear. Yesterday morning I blogged that Hone deserved a chance to explain what exactly had happened as applies his office’s Parliamentary Services crew complement – and, importantly, that we deserve to be able to judge him on the strength of...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • Canadian Green MP warns against harsh anti-terror measures
    Canada’s Green Party has provided a welcome counterpoint to Prime Minister Harper’s call for tougher anti-terrorism laws in the wake of a soldier outside the Canadian Parliament. On October 22, while she was still locked in her parliamentary office, Green...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • When is an asset sale not an asset sale? When it robs from the poor and ste...
    National have turned state housing on its head. At no time during the 2014 election did the Key Government even hint that they were going to privatise 30% of the Housing NZ stock of state homes. Not once. Key even...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part To...
    . . Continued from: Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part Rua) . Bill English comes clean on National’s intentions for HNZ privatisation . On 14 October, in a report on The Daily Blog, I wrote, In...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • The Questions Have Been Asked – They Deserve An Answer
    A few days ago, allegations that had been percolating for some time about Hone Harawira employing three either accused or convicted sex offenders on his Parliamentary pay-roll came to light. (one imprisoned before working for MANA; one who found himself convicted and...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • I have seen one future, and it is bleak
    . . Back in  March 2012, I wrote this story regarding a march to support striking workers at Ports of Auckland. It appears there was some prescience about some of my observations at the time… . | | 18 March...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • US air strike war Key wants us in has killed a civilian a day so far
      The US air strike war that John Key wants us to join has killed a civilian a day so far. From the Washington Post... The United States launched its first airstrikes on militants in Syria on Sept. 23, and has continued...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • The instant Jihad syndrome
    My favourite new term is ‘self-radicalised’ – it suggests the reasons for terrorism are totally divorced from the actions of the West. This need to suddenly ramp up terror laws because of lone wolf, self-radicalised Jihadists seems convenient and counter-productive....
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • We have nothing to fear from Ebola but fear itself
    I suspect most Americans perceive Ebola like this   I can’t work out if the fear being spread within the media about Ebola is deliberate or just ignorance. Yes Ebola is a terrible plague that kills a large percentage of...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Anjum Rahman – “Meritocracy? I wish.”
    I’d like to start by linking to a post I had published at another site in support of Nanaia Mahuta for the Labour Party leadership election.  She has a reasonable chance, given that she already has the endorsement of Te...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • Chocolate milk shortage and creepy Santa? Let’s talk about real news
    Child poverty is still a scarily serious problem in this country and house prices are soaring through the roof to the point where it is simply impossible for the average New Zealander to buy a home. There is also little...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • It’s time to celebrate Kiwi schools and teachers
    Some would have you believe that New Zealand’s schools are in a state of collapse, that your children are not being educated well and that things are going to hell in a hand basket.  That there is no innovation, no...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • Ideological Blitzkrieg – Privatization of state housing, more charter sch...
    Pundits in pundit land will tell you that this Government is boring, that Key is the great pragmatist and that it is his ability to create elegant solutions that keeps him the firm favourite in many Kiwi eyes. This ability...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • Hegemony rules but resistance is fertile
    The Prime Minister is a puppet. Not just our current Prime Minister, but given the forces of multinational globalisation, the role of any head of state, is less as independent actor, and more as a puppet of international trends and...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • An open Letter to Sir Bob Jones: demanding a ‘liveable wage’ is not “...
    How out of touch with reality is Sir Bob Jones? You know, that white dude who invested in privatised SOEs after the selling off of our assets in the eighties and made a ludicrous and disgusting amount of money and is...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • My insecurity about the Security Council
    As I write this (on 24 October) it is international UN Day. Of course, you all knew that already, right? Well, the day celebrates the entry into force of the UN Charter in 1945. With the ratification of this founding...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Catherine Delahunty – Back in That House
    Parliament opened this week and I still find it a very odd place. Most of the people are reasonably courteous and friendly, but the rituals are archaic and the rules around issues like the swearing in oath are oppressive and...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Marae Investigates No More
    TVNZ yesterday announced the closure of their Māori and Pacific programmes department. That means they’ve chosen to stop making Fresh, Tagata Pasifika, Waka Huia and Marae Investigates to let independent producers get their hands on these lucrative contracts. This is...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • BLOGWATCH: An Un-Civil War in Labour, eh?
    Earlier today, my attention was directed to an entry that’s just recently appeared on the Slightly Left of Centre blog. It purports to contain the ‘inside word’ from a highly placed NZF source – which is funny, because I’m pretty sure...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Santanomics 101
    Santanomics could mean a number of things. It could be the study and practice of giving. Or it could mean the study and practice of rampant end-of-year commercialism. However, for me today it is the economics of erectingAuckland’s giant Santa...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • SkyCity boss misleads public over workers lost shifts
    SkyCity CEO Nigel Morrison has defended the employment practices at his company in an “Opinion” piece entitled “Human Capital key to corporate success” in the NZ Herald on Thursday. A number of his claims are misleading, contain only partial truths...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Review: Perfect Place
    I went to a Perfect Place on Tuesday night, and what a delight it was. The marshmallows sweetly (and forcefully) handed out pre-show, set the tone for the next hour. Walking up the stairs at The Basement was a complete...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • 5AA Australia – NZ on UN Security Council + Dirty Politics Lingers On
    5AA Australia: Selwyn Manning and Peter Godfrey deliver their weekly bulletin Across The Ditch. General round up of over night talkback issues: Thongs, Jandals and flip-flops… ISSUE 1: New Zealand has been successful in its campaign to become a non...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • When I mean me, I mean my office & when I call whaleoil I mean not as m...
    This. Is. Ludicrous. Green Party co-leader Russel Norman put the first of what are likely to be many questions about Mr Key’s relationship with Slater, asking him how many times he had phoned or texted the blogger since 2008. “None...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • A brief word on describing the Government as ‘boring and bland’
    The narrative being sown is that this Government will be a boring and bland third term. Boring and bland. Since the election, Key has announced he is privatising 30% of state houses without reinvesting any of that money back into housing society’s most...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • More Latté Than Lager: Reflections on Grant Robertson’s Campaign Launch.
    BIKERS? SERIOUSLY! Had Grant Robertson’s campaign launch been organised by Phil Goff? Was this a pitch for the votes of what few Waitakere Men remain in the Labour Party? Was I even at the right place? Well, yes, I was....
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • About Curwen Ares Rolinson
    Curwen Ares Rolinson – Curwen Ares Rolinson is a firebrand young nationalist presently engaged in acts of political resistance deep behind enemy lines amidst the leafy boughs of Epsom. He is affiliated with the New Zealand First Party; although his...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • About Kelly Ellis
    Kelly Ellis.Kelly Ellis – As a child, Kelly Ellis didn’t so much fall into the cracks, but willfully wriggled her way into them. Ejected from Onslow College – a big job in the 70s – Kelly worked in car factories,...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • About Kate Davis
    Kate Davis.Kate Davis – Having completed her BA in English and Politics, Kate is now starting her MA. Kate works as a volunteer advocate at Auckland Action Against Poverty and previously worked for the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective. Kate writes...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • Parker does a Shearer – oh for a Labour Leader who can challenge msm fals...
    Sigh. It seems David Parker has done a Shearer… Like a cult and too red – Parker on LabourLabour leadership contender David Parker says Labour borders on feeling like “a cult” and must look at its branding – including its...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • A brief word on the hundreds of millions NZ is spending on the secret intel...
    The enormity of the mass surveillance state NZ Government’s have built carries a huge price tag… Kiwis pay $103m ‘membership fee’ for spyingThe $103 million taxpayer funding of New Zealand’s intelligence agencies is effectively a membership fee for joining the...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • CTU Runanga calls on iwi leaders
    Maori workers are calling on iwi leaders to speak out against the employment law changes expected to go through today. “Iwi leaders have previously spoken out when workers in Aotearoa have been under attack, we believe they should do so...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Educating children not the best solution to alcohol harm
    Alcohol Healthwatch says we need to look beyond educating children and young people to address deeply embedded attitudes and behaviours concerning alcohol....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • New code of welfare for rodeos released
    New standards to strengthen the animal welfare requirements for rodeos have been issued today by the Minister for Primary Industries, Nathan Guy....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • IPCA report riddle with inaccuracies, say students
    A report by the Independent Police Conduct Authority into the policing of student protests in 2012 is riddled with inaccuracies, say students who laid the original complaint with the IPCA....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CT v The Queen – indecency convictions quashed
    This summary is provided to assist in the understanding of the Court’s judgment. It does not comprise part of the reasons for that judgment. The full judgment with reasons is the only authoritative document. The full text of the judgment...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Rameka v The Queen – murder convictions quashed
    This summary is provided to assist in the understanding of the Court’s judgment. It does not comprise part of the reasons for that judgment. The full judgment with reasons is the only authoritative document. The full text of the judgment...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Auckland Council Out of Control
    Responding to the NZ Herald article that some Auckland households will face a rates rise of up to 9.6 per cent next year, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director Jordan Williams says: “Len Brown’s pledge to cap rates rises at 2.5 per...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Stats NZ staff escalate action with ‘no more meetings’ rule
    Statistics NZ staff have voted to escalate their ongoing industrial action in an effort to get Stats NZ back to the bargaining table with a reasonable offer. The staff, who are members of the Public Service Association (PSA), have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Rape Crisis calls for changes to criminal justice system
    Wellington Rape Crisis has added its voice to the public outcry following the announcement that there will be no charges in the teen rape gang case. Butterworth says the decision not to lay charges will not have been a surprise...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Police action justified in Blockade the Budget demonstration
    Police actions in dealing with a demonstration in Central Auckland known as Blockade the Budget on 1 June 2012 were justified and appropriate, an Independent Police Conduct Authority report released today found....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • NZDF Joins with Australia to Commemorate WWI Centenary
    A contingent of New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel will join their Australian counterparts at Australia’s first major commemoration of the First World War centenary in Albany, Western Australia this weekend....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Reserve Bank should reduce interest rate
    “The Reserve Bank should be reducing its policy interest rate, the OCR”, says CTU Economist Bill Rosenberg in response to the Bank’s announcement today that it is not increasing it....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • 2015 Stout Fellow will write about Māori & Criminal Justice
    Kim Workman, founder and advocate for the Robson Hanan Trust, which administers the Rethinking Crime and Punishment and Justspeak initiatives, has been awarded the 2015 John David Stout Fellowship at Victoria University....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • What John Key thought about ‘dirty politics’
    On September 20, John Key swept to victory to become one of New Zealand’s most successful and popular Prime Ministers. Rocked by scandal, the 2014 election campaign was one of the most brutal – and riveting – in recent history....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Trade Deal Threatens Farmers and Food Businesses
    The secret Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations are a direct threat to food businesses and farmers, and a moratorium on the release of GE crops must be enshrined in law before the TPP is signed....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • CTU announces election of new Secretary
    The contested election for the position of CTU Secretary has been won by Sam Huggard. Sam officially takes office on Monday 1 December 2014. Sam has worked in the union movement and brings a wealth of experience and a commitment...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kim Workman awarded 2015 J.D. Stout Fellowship
    The Victoria University of Wellington 2015 J.D. Stout Fellowship, funded by the Stout Trust, has been awarded to justice reform advocate Kim Workman. Mr Workman (Ngati Kahungungu ki Wairarapa, Rangitaane) is well known for his work on criminal justice,...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • TPPA causing concern
    Concern over the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) negotiations is being expressed in two public meetings over the next week; one at a presentation on 5th November by former councillor Robin Gwynn to the Napier City Council, the...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kiwis rally to demand justice for ‘Roast Buster’ survivors
    Over 1,500 kiwis have rallied to demand justice after the announcement of the NZ Police decision not to lay charges in the ‘Roast Busters’ saga....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • New employment law will hurt the most vulnerable NZers
    The Public Service Association (PSA) says changes to the Employment Relations Act, expected to be passed in Parliament tonight, will hurt vulnerable workers and their families more than anyone....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Consultation to close on proposed place names
    The New Zealand Geographic Board (NZGB) Ngā Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa today advised that only one month remains before public consultation closes for 18 name proposals for geographic features and places around Te Ika ā Māui (the North Island)....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Operation Clover – Statement from Police Commissioner
    I have taken a close interest in this investigation and I am confident police have conducted a thorough and professional enquiry in what has been a challenging and complex case. The Operation Clover team has ensured that victims have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Better policy would have protected children from recession
    Child Poverty Action Group says an international report released by UNICEF today shows good policy can protect and improve child well-being, even during a recession....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Outcome of Operation Clover investigation
    Police have completed a multi-agency investigation, Operation Clover, into the activities of a group calling themselves “The Roast Busters”. The 12 month enquiry focused on incidents involving allegations of sexual offending against a number of girls...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • False birth registration brings home detention
    A Whangarei woman who attempted to register the birth of a fictitious child to claim a sole parent benefit was sentenced to six months home detention in the Whangarei District Court today....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Family of Robert Ellis demand a proper investigation
    The family of a New Zealander killed in Indonesia are growing increasingly concerned at the lack of information they’ve received, and the handling of the investigation into his murder....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Minister of Health must account for aged care workers’ pay
    The New Zealand Federation of Business and Professional Women (BPW NZ) congratulates rest-home worker Kristine Bartlett on her landmark claim for equal pay from her employer and successfully pursuing this to the Court of Appeal....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Labour leadership candidates in Invercargill
    The four candidates for Labour Leader – Andrew Little, Nanaia Mahuta, David Parker and Grant Robertson - will be in Invercargill on Friday evening for a Husting meeting with members, as part of fourteen Husting Meetings being held nationwide as...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Public now needs to have its say over new tolls
    “I welcome the likes of new tolls and fuel taxes going out for public consultation after these matters have been talked about for 20 years. However the timing is not ideal as it comes on top of the likes of...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kiwis to fight back against TPPA ‘corporate trap’
    New Zealanders in at least sixteen different locations around the country are organising for an International Day of Action against the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) on 8 November, co-ordinated by It's Our Future NZ. This is part of an international...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Taxpayers’ Union Welcomes NZ First MP’s Resignation
    The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming NZ First MP, Clayton Mitchell’s resignation from the Tauranga City Council, despite Party Leader Winston Peters' public comments in July that Mr Mitchell would do both jobs if elected to Parliament. The Union's...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Stopping unnecessary roading projects solution to transport
    Today Auckland Council released the Funding Auckland’s Transport Future report which claims Aucklanders need to choose higher rates, petrol taxes or tolls to pay for future transport projects, when the real issue is the prioritisation of unnecessary...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Fixing Auckland’s transport
    Today marks a critical step in the most important funding debate Auckland has ever had: whether or not Aucklanders are willing to pay for the transport system this city desperately needs to keep it moving, says Mayor Len Brown....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • The New Zealand Gazette Moves into the Digital Age
    On Monday 20 October, the New Zealand Gazette was published completely online bringing to a close 173 years as a purely printed publication. First published in 1841 as the official government newspaper, the Gazette website gazette.govt.nz , replaces...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • International report shows NZ struggling with child poverty
    A report by UNICEF International shows that child poverty rates in New Zealand have scarcely changed since 2008 – this stands in contrast to a number of other countries that managed to significantly reduce child poverty in this time, including...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Labour leadership candidates in Dunedin
    The four candidates for Labour Leader – Andrew Little, Nanaia Mahuta, David Parker and Grant Robertson - will be in Dunedin on Thursday evening for a Husting meeting with members, as part of fourteen Husting Meetings being held nationwide as...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • UNICEF Report a Waste of Paper
    In response to the hysteria coming from the far left, Josh Forman of slightlyleftofcentre.co.nz writes the following:...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Press Council opens doors to digital media
    The New Zealand Press Council, the body which handles complaints against newspapers and magazines and their websites, is offering associate membership status to news and commentary-oriented digital media including bloggers....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Tolls Should Be for New Roads, Not Old Ones
    The Taxpayers’ Union is slamming Auckland Council for wanting to introduce a motorist tax under the guise of ‘tolls’. Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, says:...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Media freedom in West Papua: Protest at Indonesian embassy
    Today, Wednesday 29 October, there will be a peaceful protest at the Indonesian Embassy in Wellington to call on new Indonesian President Joko Widodo to honour his election promise to ensure greater media freedom in West Papua....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Lack of leadership blamed for decline in Gender Equity
    BPW NZ challenges NZ’s lack of leadership with the decline in Gender Equity Ranking...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Richard Falk visit to NZ
    Professor Richard Falk, who recently completed a six-year term as United Nations Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights, will deliver a public lecture in Dunedin on Monday 10 November....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Apprehension for meat workers as employment law bill passes
    The passing of the Employment Relations Amendment Bill today will send a wave of apprehension through the workers in the NZ meat industry says the Meat Workers Union....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • “Yes to Children, No to Poverty” Says Commissioner
    Children’s Commissioner, Dr Russell Wills will describe impacts of poverty on children, with a focus on local solutions at the Tū Kaha biennial conference for Māori health for the central region DHBs at the Hawke’s Bay Racing Centre in Hastings...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • UNICEF report card highlights need for action
    Unicef’s child poverty report released today shows that New Zealand needs to be more proactive in pursuing policies to protect our most vulnerable members of society....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Children of the Recession: NZ’s shame
    Children of the Recession : NZ’s shame Media release Wednesday 29 October 2014 “It is to New Zealand’s deepest shame that the latest Unicef report on children living in poverty ranks us 16th out of 41 developed countries. “Every day...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • UNICEF cautions NZ child poverty rates are “stagnating”
    An international report by UNICEF has found that child poverty rates in New Zealand have barely changed since 2008, despite similar sized countries significantly reducing child poverty during the recent recession....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • TPP Too Important for Compromised Finish
    The New Zealand dairy industry is urging Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) partners not to compromise on the quality of the deal to get it done quickly....
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • Labour leadership candidates in Nelson
    Labour leadership candidates in Nelson The four candidates for Labour Leader – Andrew Little, Nanaia Mahuta, David Parker and Grant Robertson - will be in Nelson on Tuesday evening for a Husting meeting with members, as part of fourteen Husting...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
  • History is made. Equal pay not just legal but possible!
    The New Zealand Nurses Organisation (NZNO) congratulates Kristine Bartlett and the Service and Food Workers Union: Ngā Ringa Tota on their historic win. Today the Court of Appeal dismissed an appeal from Kristine’s employer; opening the way for...
    Scoop politics | 28-10
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