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	<title>Comments on: Apologists</title>
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	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: Maggie</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149812</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:53:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149812</guid>
		<description>If John Key was discovered in bed with a group of girl guides, Tim Ellis would tell us how wonderful it was that the PM was taking such a personal interest in the welfare of our young people.....

Didn&#039;t Bennett say something in Parliament about her office having to regularly field enquiries from MPs about the WINZ entitlements of individual constituents? 

Why on earth should those enquiries go to the Minister&#039;s office? Isn&#039;t that the sort of thing that electorate secretaries and local WINZ offices are for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If John Key was discovered in bed with a group of girl guides, Tim Ellis would tell us how wonderful it was that the PM was taking such a personal interest in the welfare of our young people&#8230;..</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t Bennett say something in Parliament about her office having to regularly field enquiries from MPs about the WINZ entitlements of individual constituents? </p>
<p>Why on earth should those enquiries go to the Minister&#8217;s office? Isn&#8217;t that the sort of thing that electorate secretaries and local WINZ offices are for?</p>
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		<title>By: BLiP</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149807</link>
		<dc:creator>BLiP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149807</guid>
		<description>No he&#039;s not. This is what he said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is well established in criminal law that the perpetrator of violence or abuse against a child can&#039;t be identified if it would identify the identity of the child.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just two examples  from the sad litany of child abuse in New Zealand: at one end of the continuum Kahui, and Jimmy Mason at the other. Would you like more examples?

Timothy may have meant that the names of children who survive sexual abuse and/or other violence carried out by someone who would by association identify the victim then, yes. Otherwise, its another example of Timothy bullshit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No he&#8217;s not. This is what he said:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is well established in criminal law that the perpetrator of violence or abuse against a child can&#8217;t be identified if it would identify the identity of the child.</p></blockquote>
<p>Just two examples  from the sad litany of child abuse in New Zealand: at one end of the continuum Kahui, and Jimmy Mason at the other. Would you like more examples?</p>
<p>Timothy may have meant that the names of children who survive sexual abuse and/or other violence carried out by someone who would by association identify the victim then, yes. Otherwise, its another example of Timothy bullshit.</p>
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		<title>By: BLiP</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149803</link>
		<dc:creator>BLiP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jul 2009 01:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149803</guid>
		<description>No he&#039;s not. This is what he said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;It is well established in criminal law that the perpetrator of violence or abuse against a child can&#039;t be identified if it would identify the identity of the child.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just one exampleof the sad litany of child abuse in New Zealand: Kahui. Timothy may have meant that the names of children who survive sexual abuse and/or violence carried out by someone who would by association identify the victim then, yes. Otherwise, its another example of Timothy bullshit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No he&#8217;s not. This is what he said:</p>
<blockquote><p>It is well established in criminal law that the perpetrator of violence or abuse against a child can&#8217;t be identified if it would identify the identity of the child.</p></blockquote>
<p>Just one exampleof the sad litany of child abuse in New Zealand: Kahui. Timothy may have meant that the names of children who survive sexual abuse and/or violence carried out by someone who would by association identify the victim then, yes. Otherwise, its another example of Timothy bullshit.</p>
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		<title>By: IrishBill</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149662</link>
		<dc:creator>IrishBill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149662</guid>
		<description>He&#039;s right. That is the law and it&#039;s why the courts generally grant permanent name suppression to people that sexually abuse their children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He&#8217;s right. That is the law and it&#8217;s why the courts generally grant permanent name suppression to people that sexually abuse their children.</p>
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		<title>By: Graeme</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149658</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149658</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see that it&#039;s different. The child is safe - already removed from the unsafe environment. If you need the information out there to protect a child, sure, but that wasn&#039;t the hypothetical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see that it&#8217;s different. The child is safe &#8211; already removed from the unsafe environment. If you need the information out there to protect a child, sure, but that wasn&#8217;t the hypothetical.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Ellis</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149649</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149649</guid>
		<description>Fair enough burt.  I&#039;ve said elsewhere that I thought it was a line call from Ms Bennett, and I think she probably thinks now she should have got legal advice before releasing it and I don&#039;t know the privacy law to be able to say one way or the other whether it was appropriate.

I think though there are three issues.  Should there be a defence if a person goes public with only half their details, to allow the Minister to release the other half of the details to put the case in perspective? I think so, and the advice from the Privacy Commission is they have that defence.  I don&#039;t know if it applies in this case.

Secondly, is it ethical for a political party to put up individual cases (people often in quite difficult circumstances) to put up only half the relevant information and then expose those individuals to humiliation when the media finds out the full facts? This isn&#039;t the first time that the Labour Party has done this.  Mr Goff seems to be fashioning his leadership style around hamming up a case using only half a story, and then leaving the poor sod to face the music when the media finds out the rest of the facts.

Thirdly (and it isn&#039;t the you did it too defence), but I get annoyed with Labour saying that they didn&#039;t do it.  It&#039;s either acceptable conduct for a Minister or it&#039;s not, as you say.  Labour shouldn&#039;t play for outrage game over it when according to half of the press gallery it was common practice for Labour to shop this around.  That is not an excuse for the conduct but it does mitigate against Labour&#039;s outrage over it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough burt.  I&#8217;ve said elsewhere that I thought it was a line call from Ms Bennett, and I think she probably thinks now she should have got legal advice before releasing it and I don&#8217;t know the privacy law to be able to say one way or the other whether it was appropriate.</p>
<p>I think though there are three issues.  Should there be a defence if a person goes public with only half their details, to allow the Minister to release the other half of the details to put the case in perspective? I think so, and the advice from the Privacy Commission is they have that defence.  I don&#8217;t know if it applies in this case.</p>
<p>Secondly, is it ethical for a political party to put up individual cases (people often in quite difficult circumstances) to put up only half the relevant information and then expose those individuals to humiliation when the media finds out the full facts? This isn&#8217;t the first time that the Labour Party has done this.  Mr Goff seems to be fashioning his leadership style around hamming up a case using only half a story, and then leaving the poor sod to face the music when the media finds out the rest of the facts.</p>
<p>Thirdly (and it isn&#8217;t the you did it too defence), but I get annoyed with Labour saying that they didn&#8217;t do it.  It&#8217;s either acceptable conduct for a Minister or it&#8217;s not, as you say.  Labour shouldn&#8217;t play for outrage game over it when according to half of the press gallery it was common practice for Labour to shop this around.  That is not an excuse for the conduct but it does mitigate against Labour&#8217;s outrage over it.</p>
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		<title>By: Is truth beauty? Is beauty truth? Does knowing a person&#8217;s income tell you a damned thing about them? &#171; Ideologically Impure</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149647</link>
		<dc:creator>Is truth beauty? Is beauty truth? Does knowing a person&#8217;s income tell you a damned thing about them? &#171; Ideologically Impure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149647</guid>
		<description>[...] policy on consent by commenters.  I have done likewise.  Teacher teacher Labour hit me first.  Zetetic provides a nice analogy.  How much did Paula Bennett get? Julie explains why this isn&#8217;t the issue &#8211; hell, on [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] policy on consent by commenters.  I have done likewise.  Teacher teacher Labour hit me first.  Zetetic provides a nice analogy.  How much did Paula Bennett get? Julie explains why this isn&#8217;t the issue &#8211; hell, on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149644</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149644</guid>
		<description>&lt;wind_up_the_muppets&gt;Actually in the theme of apologists - we must not forget that the business of govt is whatever govt decide it to be.&lt;/wind_up_the_muppets&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;wind_up_the_muppets&gt;Actually in the theme of apologists &#8211; we must not forget that the business of govt is whatever govt decide it to be.&lt;/wind_up_the_muppets&gt;</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149641</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149641</guid>
		<description>RedLogix

That is actually quite disconcerting. Are we to believe that there is access to individual welfare case files in the ministers office? That sounds like BS to me and I suspect somebody is telling porkies. 

However if the minister has direct access available to individual case files the question &quot;WHY?&quot; needs to be asked. 

Oh, cheers for the Herald link.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RedLogix</p>
<p>That is actually quite disconcerting. Are we to believe that there is access to individual welfare case files in the ministers office? That sounds like BS to me and I suspect somebody is telling porkies. </p>
<p>However if the minister has direct access available to individual case files the question &#8220;WHY?&#8221; needs to be asked. </p>
<p>Oh, cheers for the Herald link.</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149640</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:32:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149640</guid>
		<description>OK, so she did get access to personal details now the next question is; Excluding the overarching conditions imposed by the privacy commission, what declarations of secrecy and privacy did Bennett sign when she became a minister? Surely there were non disclosure arrangements that remove her rights to publicly discuss details concerning information that is not already in the public domain?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so she did get access to personal details now the next question is; Excluding the overarching conditions imposed by the privacy commission, what declarations of secrecy and privacy did Bennett sign when she became a minister? Surely there were non disclosure arrangements that remove her rights to publicly discuss details concerning information that is not already in the public domain?</p>
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		<title>By: felix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149638</link>
		<dc:creator>felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149638</guid>
		<description>I wondered that too burt, I would have thought a person&#039;s private information would be off limits to anyone apart from those directly working on that particular case, including Ministers.

It&#039;s worrying to think that a Minister would have free access to personal details at all, whether they were to make them public or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wondered that too burt, I would have thought a person&#8217;s private information would be off limits to anyone apart from those directly working on that particular case, including Ministers.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worrying to think that a Minister would have free access to personal details at all, whether they were to make them public or not.</p>
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		<title>By: RedLogix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149636</link>
		<dc:creator>RedLogix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149636</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Bennett was also confronted in Parliament by questions about where the information had come from. It appears from her answers to Annette King that Bennett has a computer in her office from which her welfare officials can access beneficiary files.

That is how she got the information - without going through the chief executive of the ministry of social development, Peter Hughes.

Labour is suggesting that Hughes, one of the public service&#039;s leading CE&#039;s, is furious about it. That may or may not be true but at the every least he should have been consulted about such a sensitive matter.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;a href=&#039;http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/audrey-young/2009/7/28/paula-bennett-beneficiaries-and-bullying/?c_id=1501219&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Herald&lt;/a&gt;

Not sure if this makes it any better or not. At least the Ministry may not have been directly involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Bennett was also confronted in Parliament by questions about where the information had come from. It appears from her answers to Annette King that Bennett has a computer in her office from which her welfare officials can access beneficiary files.</p>
<p>That is how she got the information &#8211; without going through the chief executive of the ministry of social development, Peter Hughes.</p>
<p>Labour is suggesting that Hughes, one of the public service&#8217;s leading CE&#8217;s, is furious about it. That may or may not be true but at the every least he should have been consulted about such a sensitive matter.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href='http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/audrey-young/2009/7/28/paula-bennett-beneficiaries-and-bullying/?c_id=1501219' rel="nofollow">Herald</a></p>
<p>Not sure if this makes it any better or not. At least the Ministry may not have been directly involved.</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149635</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149635</guid>
		<description>As a side issue, how did Bennett get hold of the details for these two woman? 

What I&#039;m asking is; Can the minister just ask somebody in MSD/WINZ/Social Welfare to give her the details for individuals? 

This in itself sounds wrong ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a side issue, how did Bennett get hold of the details for these two woman? </p>
<p>What I&#8217;m asking is; Can the minister just ask somebody in MSD/WINZ/Social Welfare to give her the details for individuals? </p>
<p>This in itself sounds wrong ?</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149631</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149631</guid>
		<description>Oh, no offence Tim. I normally agree with much of what you say and you don&#039;t automatically take a contrary position to everything I say like some muppets. 

However as much as I like knowing how much these welfare cases who are lovers of state dependency really take off productive people each week  - I don&#039;t think Bennett was right to release the details.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, no offence Tim. I normally agree with much of what you say and you don&#8217;t automatically take a contrary position to everything I say like some muppets. </p>
<p>However as much as I like knowing how much these welfare cases who are lovers of state dependency really take off productive people each week  &#8211; I don&#8217;t think Bennett was right to release the details.</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/apologists/comment-page-1/#comment-149627</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17808#comment-149627</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t responding to Tim, but I guess he thought the cap fitted. I don&#039;t care about Tim&#039;s position. Change the players and Tim &amp; rOb are interchangeable as far as I&#039;m concerned. Sure they both mean well but really there is a limit to how much &quot;My side was justified&quot; I can take in any one day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t responding to Tim, but I guess he thought the cap fitted. I don&#8217;t care about Tim&#8217;s position. Change the players and Tim &amp; rOb are interchangeable as far as I&#8217;m concerned. Sure they both mean well but really there is a limit to how much &#8220;My side was justified&#8221; I can take in any one day.</p>
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