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Being fired for union membership is disgraceful

Written By: - Date published: 3:37 pm, December 10th, 2012 - 204 comments
Categories: Unions - Tags: ,

CTU response to the appalling story here. (also NRT)

CTU Media Release

10 December 2012

Being fired for union membership is disgraceful

The story today that Vice President of Equity Todd Rippon was dismissed by a Lord of the Rings tour guide for being a union official in the union Actors Equity, is something the Prime Minister, including in his capacity as Tourism Minister, needs to take responsibility for, CTU President Helen Kelly said.

“Not only has John Key personally made it clear to employers in the entertainment industry that the Government will back them to undermine the rights of workers to join unions but he and his Ministers have made such derogatory and misleading statements about this union in particular, that the industry and those associated with it, appear to feel free to bully anyone that has a different point of view.”

Helen Kelly, CTU President says that losing your job for being a union member is illegal and unfair, and she is deeply concerned at the involvement of Positively Wellington in the process.

“The Prime Minister as Minister of Tourism needs to investigate this and assure New Zealand workers that he does not support this type of discrimination in the industry and contrary to this employers view, his Department will act fairly in relation to its procurement and not discriminate against companies that have union officials on their staff.”

Helen Kelly said “no union member should be persecuted for belonging to a union and we are supporting Todd, alongside Actors Equity, in taking this personal grievance.  What happened to Todd is very unfair and could have an alarming effect on any performer or other worker that is considering taking a role in this, or any other union, unless the Government takes a stand. We want this matter resolved fairly.”

204 comments on “Being fired for union membership is disgraceful”

  1. Being fired is disgraceful.

    So is being physically threatened for not wanting to join a union.

    • framu 1.1

      WTF are you on about brett?

      • QoTViper 1.1.1

        Allow me to run the Brett translator: “Unions may also have done bad things which exist entirely in my head, and which don’t actually relate to the current story, but I’m going to bring them up anyway and then vociferiously deny that I’m downplaying illegal activity as long as it’s against unions. Which is exactly what I’m doing.”

    • Bill 1.2

      Brett. Have you ever attempted any union recruitment? I’m guessing you haven’t. I have. And I was quite good at it. And never bullied or threatened any worker I approached. But here’s the thing. I can give you a string of incidents where I was the one being bullied, harassed and/or assaulted by (variously) non-union workers, bosses and privately hired security guards.

    • geoff 1.3

      Fuck you’re pathetic Brett

      [lprent: That was a pointless abuse comment. Read the policy. Don't repeat the practice - always say why you think something. ]

  2. I find it strange that the unions try to take the moral high ground, but have a history of violence and intimidation against those who dont want to join.

    • One Tāne Viper 2.1

      I find it tedious and somewhat pathetic that right-wingers think anyone here believes a single word they say without independent corroboration.

      To put it another way, citation needed.

      To put it another way, hi, I’m the third Billy Goat Gruff. What’s it like under that bridge?

    • Richard Down South 2.2

      Yeah sucks that unions have a history of violence… lets ban unions… oh wait… but then so does the police (not often, but it happens) and oh look, most organised religions, and in fact, the human race…

    • framu 2.3

      you dont find it strange at all

      i reckon its just another convenient strawman of your own creation, for you to get all “high horse” about whatever your fevered imagination thinks is reality

    • Draco T Bastard 2.4

      Not as much history of violence as the government and business.

    • Daveosaurus 2.5

      [[ citation needed ]]

  3. One Tāne Viper 3

    “We want this matter resolved fairly.”

    What would be a fair resolution, a measured response to this assault? The deliberate attack on a person’s ability to earn a living, the threat of financial ruin.

    The wider assault upon all working New Zealanders, the deliberate intimidation of the entire workforce.

    What’s the law on self-defence again?

  4. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4

    It’s the Prime Minister’s fault. Course. Obvious when you think about it.

    • One Tāne Viper 4.1

      Do you support freedom of speech and association or not?

      • HS ChannelingClareCurran 4.1.1

        No.

        • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.1.1.1

          Do you support freedom of speech and association or not?

          I do. I just was not aware that the PM had personal responsibility for every breach of every law in New Zealand. I accept I must be wrong about that. Otherwise, you know, what’s he for?

          • One Tāne Viper 4.1.1.1.1

            Well then, it’s a good thing the media release makes no such accusations, instead concentrating on specific examples of the low life’s betrayal of New Zealanders.

      • TheContrarian 4.1.2

        What always bothered me was the same people that talk about ‘freedom of speech and association’ were so anti the VSM bill.

        • McFliper 4.1.2.1

          Well, many students are no longer free to join an advocacy group that isn’t being fed from the university, tit like the ones down here. It’s like going to see the company doctor about workplace health problems. No more impartial representative organisations.
                
          The VSM bill was anti-freedom of association.

          • TheContrarian 4.1.2.1.1

            “The VSM bill was anti-freedom of association.”

            Being able to choose whether or not to join a student union is anti-freedom? Wow.

            (But this is getting off topic now)

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.1.1

              There was always choice. It was just a question of what the default starting position was.

              • TheContrarian

                I didn’t have a choice. I was an extramural student, never set foot on campus except for exams doing one paper per semester because I had a busy full-job. Because I didn’t qualify for any type of loan I paid my fee’s upfront and having an extra $100.00 or so added for a service I never used as part of an organisation I had no dealings with nor had any desire to have any dealings with didn’t seem at all fair – particularly because I didn’t always agree with the unions politics so why should I be compelled to give support to it. I had no choice in the matter.

                That isn’t freedom of association

                • McFliper

                  Who forced you to study at that institution? What were the policies of your students’ association on conscientious objection? Why didn’t the VSM bill streamline conscientious objectors, rather than making the default position “non-membership”?
                         
                  trool 

                  • TheContrarian

                    “Who forced you to study at that institution

                    At the time (And I still think this is the case) Massey was only one institution that provided extramural political science. Is it fair to suggest that if I have a problem with it then tough luck, you either join or don’t study?

                    I couldn’t get my money back and why should I have to object, withhold funds, potentially forfeit my place in the semester and go through an objection when I am not even part of campus? Also, when I did draw a student loan I didn’t even have the option to withhold payment – comes right out on its own and I have no say.

                    No matter how you swing it, compulsory unionism is against ones freedom to associate – it is compulsory association.

                    Other unions were voluntary (I worked in public service for many years and never once joined the PSA nor did I join the Police Association when I worked in PNHQ for a spell).

                    disclaimer: I have no beef with unions themselves. Go for your life I say.

                    • felixviper

                      Out of curiosity, how did you manage to avoid using the services of the PSA for “many years? For example, how did you avoid the pay-rises?

                    • McFliper

                      So you wanted to go do a particular course and joining the association was part of that.
                           
                      Now if I want to do a particular course at an institution that suits me, I can’t join an independent student advocacy organisation. Your “freedom of association” fucks mine.  Thanks for that. Oh, and the levies are still charged – just by the university rather than the association. You love to whine about unrefundable, non-optional levies, don’t you?
                         
                      But because it suits you it’s the clear moral good. Just another tory…

                    • TheContrarian

                      Freedom to associate means the freedom to join, or not join, the organisation of your choice.

                    • McFliper

                      Absence of choice is absence of freedom.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  having an extra $100.00 or so added for a service I never used

                  Actually, you probably did but you just never realised it. Like many such organisations they perform services that are essentially invisible (ones that are necessary but not actively used) until they’re taken away.

                  • TheContrarian

                    The only difference I noticed in withdrawing from the union was I no longer got the magazine.

                • karol

                   an extra $100.00 or so added for a service I never used as part of an organisation I had no dealings with

                  Sometimes I feel that way about paying my annual insurance premiums.  But the one or two occasions I’ve made a claim, I’ve been glad it’s there.  The worst part of insurance is that the company’s profits go to enrich someone.

                  The difference from a Union is that, it doesn’t profiteer for the benefit of an elite group.  And, I am happy with the conditions the union negotiates for all of us.

                  I’m also happy that a union supports members like Todd Rippon….. the collective logic means, that it isn’t just a case of, “Today they came for Todd….”  the union’s support of one member in such issues, benefits all members.

                  • TheContrarian

                    Nonetheless, no matter how good or not a union is freedom of association means the freedom to join, or not join, a union.
                    Compulsory union membership is not freedom to associate.

                    • McFliper

                      Funnily enough, it wasn’t “compulsory” to join if you weren’t a student at the relevant institution.
                               
                      You were free to go somewhere else. But that extramural option was more convenient for you.
                             
                      Guess what: inconvenience does not equal compulsion. 

                    • TheContrarian

                      So I must quit my job and possibly move to another city in order to find a university where they had voluntary membership with a high likely hood of not finding any programme anywhere where membership wasn’t a requirement? Or else just don’t study at all.
                      Yeah that’s fair.

                    • vto viped

                      There is no choice in;

                      having to pay income tax if you choose to earn an income.
                      having to pay GST if you buy a banana.
                      having to pay rates and receive Council services if you choose to buy a property
                      having to keep quiet after 11pm if you choose to live around others.
                      having to drive at 100kmh if you choose to buy a ferrari
                      having to pay an EQC levy if you choose to insure your house (f#%*ing eqc…)
                      having to register or login if you want to participate in countless blogospehrics

                      I’m sure you get the idea of the principle at play behind these and countless other compulsory requirements that are tagged onto various so-called choices.

                      Have a look at that principle and think about how it applies in the bigger picture of creating an ordered and functioning society

                      simplistic views are just that

                    • McFliper

                      More fair than denying the possibility of joining an independent students’ association to every other student at the institution.Thanks for that, you selfish jerk.
                             
                      God forbid that anyone has to move town, quit their job to study, or be otherwised inconvenienced to get the education option they want – the university of Otago should have a campus in every small town! What the fuck are you, twelve years old?
                               
                      The only reason the government stepped in was because at most institutions, more students wanted independent associations than did not. The government (well, ACT and the young nats) decided to remove freedom of association for the majority just because the minority didn’t want to be inconvenienced. 
                           

                           
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      NZ Bill of Rights, Section 17:
                      “Everyone has the right to freedom of association.”

                      “A person’s decision to join or refrain from joining an organistion should be free from compulsion, intimidation, coercion, incentives or disincentives of a magnitude that effectively removes the exercise of choice.”

                      http://www.justice.govt.nz/publications/global-publications/t/the-guidelines-on-the-new-zealand-bill-of-rights-act-1990-a-guide-to-the-rights-and-freedoms-in-the-bill-of-rights-act-for-the-public-sector/section-16-freedom-of-peaceful-assembly#section17

                      A union is an association of people that under the Bill of Rights I should have the freedom to associate in a voluntary manner.

                      “More fair than denying the possibility of joining an independent students’ association to every other student at the institution.Thanks for that, you selfish jerk”
                      No-one is denied anything – membership is voluntary.

                      “decided to remove freedom of association for the majority just because the minority didn’t want to be inconvenienced.”

                      Care to identify which freedoms have been removed?

                    • McFliper

                      8 universities in NZ.
                           
                      Prior to the VSM bill, ISTR 2 of them were already “voluntary”.
                           
                      Not including conscientious objection clauses.
                                
                      Wanting to study at a particular institution is not exactly “of a magnitude that effectively removes the exercise of choice”. You had a choice. Hell, I don’t like lectures at a particular time of the day, but I bite that bullet as a cost of getting the degree. I don’t scream “oppression” about it.
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      Everyone, as per the Bill of Rights, has the right to join or not join an association free from compulsion. That includes the PSA, Student Unions, the cub scouts and political parties.

                      So can you now identify which freedoms have been removed?

                    • McFliper

                      I can’t join it if it doesn’t exist.
                           
                      And you were free to not join it in the first place. 

                    • TheContrarian

                      So which freedoms do you not have now?

                      “And you were free to not join it in the first place. ”
                      Yeah, but I still had to give them money.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      No you didn’t have to give them money. You could have refused to join on conscience grounds and you would not have had to pay. Students have now the lost the ‘right’ to an effective Student Organisation on all campuses as a result of a tiny minority of students being too lazy to put in those applications.

                    • McFliper

                      So which freedoms do you not have now?

                      I can’t join an independent students’ association. It no longer exists.
                       

                      And you were free to not join it in the first place.” 
                      Yeah, but I still had to give them money

                      Donate it to charity, if it was like Otago. And besides, at many unis now you still pay a compulsory levy for services that the university then contracts the association to provide. You’d still pay money studying today, but now you have no say in how it’s spent. Good score. You were on a better run squealing “oppression!”
                      Not that you were getting anywhere with that.
                           
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      “I can’t join an independent students’ association. It no longer exists.”

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_tertiary_students%27_associations

                      Quite a few student associations you can join eh? You have freedom to join or not join any number of these unions without having to force others to do so. Freedom for you and for me.

                      I haven’t screamed oppression. I didn’t want to be in the Student Union and now I don’t have to but have the choice to join in future if I want to.

                      “No you didn’t have to give them money.”

                      Why should I have to object, withhold funds, potentially forfeit my place in the semester and go through an objection when I am not even part of campus as an extramural student? Also, when I did draw a student loan I didn’t even have the option to withhold payment – comes right out on its own and I have no say.

                      But it’s all a moot point:

                      NZ Bill of Rights, Section 17:
                      “Everyone has the right to freedom of association.”

                      “A person’s decision to join or refrain from joining an organistion should be free from compulsion, intimidation, coercion, incentives or disincentives of a magnitude that effectively removes the exercise of choice.”

                    • McFliper

                      Quite a few student associations you can join eh?

                       How many of them are funded independently of their tertiary institution?
                      You had the option of objecting to membership of an independent and democratic students’ association. That would have been a moronic option, but you were free to choose it. You were never forced to join any particular association. I’ve gone my entire life without joining almost all of them, for example.
                          
                      Now my association is no longer independent. An independent advocacy association no longer exists, probably in NZ but definitely at my uni.

                            

                      Why should I have to object, withhold funds, potentially forfeit my place in the semester and go through an objection when I am not even part of campus as an extramural student? Also, when I did draw a student loan I didn’t even have the option to withhold payment – comes right out on its own and I have no say.

                      Oh, let’s see: because you wanted a degree from that university. And like other costs of going to that university, it was a necessary expense. But better than, say, a recreation levy, because the amount and necessity was democratically decided by students, not the university council. Which is now a compulsory levy from the university that then pays the association a contract for service. Same number of bands at orientation, but you’d better not have a major issue with a paper because the advocate is now a company doctor.

                             
                      Total freedoms “gained”: -1. Thanks for that. 
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      I’m sorry you find freedom of association under the NZ Bill of Rights to be so hard on you.

                      I can only imagine how you must feel to know that people can choose not to be part of a union.

                    • McFliper

                      Now you’re being intentionally obtuse.
                      You could always choose not to be part of the union.
                      Now there is no independent association for me to join. I am NOT free to join an association, because an independent association no longer exists.
                             
                      You are continuing the perverting of the BORA to impose your will on others. Literally, because ACT amended the BORA rather than the Education Act. 
                           
                       

                    • vto viped

                      I think I’m convinced on all this freedom of association…

                      I would like to get a degree next year. Anyone know of where that can be done without being compulsorily required to join a university?

                    • TheContrarian

                      there, there.

                    • McFliper

                      fuck you’re a tool.
                           
                      You claim it’s your right to shit in the pool because it’s too inconvenient to get out and go to the lavatory, and when someone else points out the repercussions for other people, you go “there there”.
                           
                      Tosser.

                    • TheContrarian

                      I am sorry you dislike Article 17 of the New Zealand Bill of Rights.

                      I mean, after all, making me pay for a union I don’t support, who’s politics I don’t support (for the most part) is the key to freedom.

                    • TheContrarian

                      “Now there is no independent association for me to join. I am NOT free to join an association, because an independent association no longer exists.”

                      Here’s one and, as you have already said, you have the choice to join.

                      http://exmss.org/

                      Oh look, here is another:
                      http://www.vuwsa.org.nz/support/advocacy-and-advice/

                      And another
                      http://www.musa.org.nz/

                      So, which freedoms have you lost again?

                    • McFliper

                      How are they funded? THEN we’ll see how “independent” they are…

                      Oh, and nobody “made” you join a students’ association. Stop lying.

                    • TheContrarian

                      So, which freedoms have you lost again?

                      “nobody “made” you join a students’ association.”

                      True, all they did was auto-enrolled me, took my money and wouldn’t give it back.

                    • McFliper

                       here  and here and here

                    • TheContrarian

                      So you can’t join those independent unions because they don’t exist despite several of them existing?

                      oh here’s another:
                      http://www.whitireia.ac.nz/student_services/Pages/WhitireiaIndependentStudentsAssociation.aspx

                      Oh look! and more:
                      http://www.mawsa.org.nz/
                      “Massey Wellington Students’ Association (MAWSA) is student-run, student-focused and funded by student money. All enrolled students at Massey Wellington are members of MAWSA.”

                    • McFliper

                      here and “All enrolled students at Massey Wellington are members of MAWSA.”
                       

                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      Nonetheless independent unions exist.

                      But again, I am sorry the freedom to associate, or not associate, is hard on you. Really, I am sorry.

                      And you do realise this also means that if a union started moving to the far-right an embracing things you don’t agree with you don’t have to support it financially or otherwise?

                    • McFliper

                      If a truly independent student association exists, it’s an endangered species. Whereas you were free to object to membership of whichever students’ association applied to whichever institution you studied at. The financial argument is bullshit, seeing most of the services have been taken over (well, plus a conflict of interest) by the institutions themselves.
                              
                      Your “lack of freedom” consisted of “you were too lazy to bother filling in the forms, and it might have taken a while”.
                              
                      My lack of freedom consists of “if I have perfect information, I might be able to find a students’ association that does not have a clear conflict of interest should I require advocacy against the institution – and there’s sure not one that can help me in the majority of institutions around the country”. 
                               
                      I just hope you meet someone who is as concerned for your freedom as you tory fucks were for mine. I really do.

                    • TheContrarian

                      You haven’t lost any freedoms.

                      Even if I opted out they still took my money. Woo Freedom! Freedom to give financial support to an organisation that doesn’t represent me and that a I rarely agreed with!

                      “there’s sure not one that can help me in the majority of institutions around the country”.
                      Hey, you could just move and find one? Isn’t that what you suggested I do? I mean God forbid that anyone has to move town, quit their job to study, or be otherwised inconvenienced to get the education option they want.

                    • McFliper

                      Well, my local advocate now has an incentive to cover up problems I might have rather than address them, given that he’s paid at the will of the the university. 
                             
                      And now the university takes the same amount or more money as a service charge. Woohoo! big difference. 

                    • TheContrarian

                      Well I am going out now anyway so I’ll leave you with

                      NZ Bill of Rights, Section 17:
                      “Everyone has the right to freedom of association.”

                      “A person’s decision to join or refrain from joining an organistion should be free from compulsion, intimidation, coercion, incentives or disincentives of a magnitude that effectively removes the exercise of choice.”

                    • McFliper

                      Yeah. Roger Douglas was a real Nelson Mandela.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Yeah fuck Douglas and the freedom of association as enshrined in Article 20 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

                      http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a20

                    • McFliper

                      Yeah. Having to fill in a CO form was suuuuch compulsion.

                      edit: argh fuck it this has gone on long enough and is now a broken record. Has been for ages. If you’re such a fucking moron you don’t get it by now, you’d be illiterate. You’re not illiterate, so you’re just a fuckwit.

                      another edit: actually, could a moderator shift this derail to open mike or something. Sorry I got dragged in.

                    • TheContrarian

                      “Yeah. Having to fill in a CO form was suuuuch compulsion.”

                      yeah but they still took the money…

                      I am sorry the freedom of association causes you such consternation McFlock. Really. I am also sorry your reaction always ends in personal insults towards others.

                      Oh well, we gotta use what we have, eh? When you don’t have a leg to stand on, insult your opponent. You may not win but at least you’ll feel like a big winner.

                    • McFliper

                      When exactly the same comments are repeated three times after it’s pointed out that, e.g., you still lose the money under the new regime, all that’s left is insult.
                         
                      You could have addressed the counterpoint, but no, you repeat the previous line like a dim-witted parrot. So you’re not interested in debate. And foolish me for falling for it yet again. Which is your objective, you trool.
                         

                            

                    • TheContrarian

                      You are full of shit McFlock because since leaving the union my study costs went down. My money is no longer going to an association which I have fundamental disagreements with. THAT is the difference and THAT is against my right to freedom of association. It isn’t about cost – it’s about funding an association which you do not want to associate with.

                      In McFlocks world I should be auto-enrolled and if I don’t like it I have to go to a protracted withdrawal from the association which keeps my money anyway and if i don’t like it then, tough, go to another university.

                      In my world when signing up for university there should be a tick-box “Do you wish to join the Student union: Yes/No”.

                      Freedom of association buddy. Calling me names and a trool is just your way of discrediting opposing opinion. A cheap trick from a cheap man

                    • McFliper

                      whatever, moron.
                               
                      At otago, the costs went up, only this time it’s a service levy from the uni. And because the association is dependent on uni funding, it is not an independent advocate.
                           
                      Freedom of association also means freedom to join. You can’t join an independent organisation if it doesn’t exist.   
                           
                      But of course we’ve been through this repeatedly, but you can’t face the fact that you and your comrades aren’t noble defenders of freedom, you’re just selfish, small-minded toryboys who despise democracy when it returns a decision you don’t like. Cut&pasting dogmatically doesn’t change that. The paperwork was too hard for you to deal with, and your obsession with money just kept you awake at night. 
                          
                      In your world you like to freeload off the gains made previously by association members, before self-absorbed morons like you ran to uncle roger. So yeah, I call you names. What, you want to shit in the pool and still be treated politely? Fuck you. Being called a moron is part of your choice to behave like a moron, just like joining an association was part of your choice to go to that institution. But the government can’t step in and change the law to enable you to behave like a moron without being called one.
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      “Freedom of association also means freedom to join. You can’t join an independent organisation if it doesn’t exist. ”

                      But some do exist. And you have the freedom to create an independent association yourself if you desire. If an organisation can only exist by forcing people to pay for it, even if they don’t want to join it then that organisation isn’t operating freely or fairly.

                      The rest of your comment is just a mess of childish
                      ad-homs. the written equivalent of foot stamping and wetting your pants.

                      In McFlocks world all arer auto-enrolled and if you don’t like it I have to go to a protracted withdrawal from the association which keeps my money anyway and if i don’t like it then, tough, go to another university.

                      In the free world when signing up for university there is a tick-box “Do you wish to join the Student union: Yes/No”.

                    • McFliper

                      And you have the freedom to create an independent association yourself if you desire.
                        
                      If an organisation can only exist by forcing people to pay for it, even if they don’t want to join it then that organisation isn’t operating freely or fairly.

                      Wow! it never rains, but it pours! Two new contributions to the thread, rather than parroting imaginary shit and unread google searches as if repetition means it’s true.
                                
                      To which I respond: signing a form was a barrier to you not joining an association, but creating a new one from scratch is a “freedom”? Do you even know how many forms are required to create a new society and operate it for a single year?
                          
                      Secondly, (under OUSA rules, anyway) the CO payment wasn’t retained by OUSA to keep it operating. The rule was that it needed to be paid to another charity.
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      “signing a form was a barrier to you not joining an association”

                      But they STILL take the money. I am STILL funding it regardless of whether I sign a form to withdraw. There is no freedom in funding an organisation you do not wish to belong and withdraw from. Even if it goes to a charity what gives the association the moral authority to take my money and give it to a charity? It has none and removes my freedoms.

                      Independent unions exist, you have the freedom to join one or create one. I have the freedom to not join and not fund one.

                      once again:
                      If an organisation can only exist by forcing people to pay for it, even if they don’t want to join it then that organisation isn’t operating freely or fairly.

                      In McFlocks world all are auto-enrolled and if you don’t like it I have to go to a protracted withdrawal from the association which keeps the money anyway (or gives it to a charity without your authority) and if i don’t like it then, tough, go to another university or don’t attend university

                      In the free world when signing up for university there is a tick-box “Do you wish to join the Student union: Yes/No”.

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      Shorter Contrarian:

                      “Come and see the violence inherent in the system! I’m being oppressed!”

                    • McFliper

                      aaaaaaannnd you’re back to parroting imaginary shit.

                       oh, wait, here’s a new point buried in the crap that’s been dealt with before:
                       

                      Even if it goes to a charity what gives the association the moral authority to take my money and give it to a charity? It has none and removes my freedoms.

                      Actually, it had the moral authority of a democratic decision by everyone else on campus choosing whether they wanted to associate with freeloaders at university. That’s why ACT had to step in, remember? Students kept voting to keep their associations independent.

                      And now for the rehashed drivel.
                          

                      Independent unions exist, you have the freedom to join one or create one. I have the freedom to not join and not fund one. once again: If an organisation can only exist by forcing people to pay for it, even if they don’t want to join it then that organisation isn’t operating freely or fairly.

                      You haven’t demonstrated they exist independently with no conflict of interest caused by funding, you just googled students’ associations. lame.
                         
                      If I have the freedom to go through the process of creating an association, why is it a barrier to sign a CO form?
                         
                      People who were truly opposed to joining an association did not fund the association.
                         
                      Oh, and in the free world central government doesn’t overrule the democratic decisions of communities, be it students’ associations or Environment Canterbury.
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      To sum up:

                      Despite compulsory membership of a student union being against Article 17 of the NZ Bill of Rights and Article 20 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, McFlock believes that being auto-signed into a union that may not represent the views of the member who then has to take the time to object, still has to fund the association even if they leave the association who either keeps the money or gives it to a charity without any moral authority to do so. Even though that money may go to something the payee has political objection to, McFlock still believes this is somehow within the bounds of ‘freedom of association’.

                      McFlock also believes a free, fair student union is one that must compel people to fund it.

                      Contrarian believes freedom of association is in the choice to join the organisation itself, in line with international (and national) human rights and that no one should be compelled to join or fund a student union or charity which they disagree with.

                      In the free world people decide themselves whether to join a student association.

                    • McFliper

                      :roll: 

                    • TheContrarian

                      Glad to see you negating fundamental human rights in the name of your political positions.

                      Hugs and kisses.

                    • McFliper

                      Just expressing my contempt for your blue-tinted, self-obsessed “summary”.
                      When you look in the mirror in the morning you must see this.
                           
                      I wonder if this is more accurate. 

                    • TheContrarian

                      Sorry, which part was incorrect?

                    • McFliper

                      :roll:
                         
                      Already covered. Extensively. 
                           
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      So I haven’t accurately summed up your position?

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      :roll:

                    • McFliper

                      your “summary” of my position was simple repetition of previous blue-tinted interpretations of my position that you have made and I’ve corrected.
                           
                      Stop pretending that you wrote something new. You didn’t. Obviously we’ve exhausted your quota of thought for the day, and you’re back to parroting.
                         
                      Ah well, you got my hopes for an actual debate up again, only to dash them once more. I’m the fool again.
                         
                        
                      I miss CV!!!
                      He could hold a debate without being an unimaginative parrot and trooling fuckwit.  

                    • TheContrarian

                      I either have or have not summarised your position accurately. Which is it?

                    • McFliper

                      Already addressed. Get something new.
                           

                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      OK – Does the fact that the association decides on whether or not an objection is upheld and can reject someones application to withdraw from the associations strike you as a freedom under the freedom of association article?

                    • McFliper

                      See? With a bit of work you CAN do it!
                           
                      And actually, yes [edit: erm - "yes" as in I agree with your implied point that the answer to your q is "no". Clear as mud? Sorry.]. I do tend to agree with your new point. However, the appropriate resolution to that would be to tweak the system of requesting objection (probably a legacy of the old military CO regulations – ’twas the style of the time).
                           
                      Personally, I’d be okay with the objections being referred to the institution and rubberstamped that way, especially if benefits of association membership could also be withheld from the freeloader sorry “objector”.
                           
                      Do you follow the principle that government interference in local matters should be as small as possible? And that keystones of our democratic system should not be used as political footballs by minor parties?
                         
                      If so, was adjusting the BORA an appropriate way to resolve a procedural issue within the education act? 

                    • TheContrarian

                      “If so, was adjusting the BORA an appropriate way to resolve a procedural issue within the education act?”

                      The VSM bill, as introduced by heather Roy, was an amendment to the Education Act, not to the Bill of Rights.

                    • McFliper

                      fair call. I was getting my tory fuckwits confused. Too many assholes in the country.
                           
                      Even so, doesn’t this seem to be a bit of overkill for tweaking CO procedures? 
                            
                      Surely the reasonable response would have been to keep the democratic choice of the students as to whether they were opt-in or opt-out, just insert a paragraph to say if someone doesn’t want to be a member, they just tell the institution in opt-out campuses?
                             
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      You mean would it be easier for students, when signing up for a course, to say “Yes I do/No I do not want to be part of the student association?

                    • McFliper

                      Not quite.
                      It would need to be a clear statement of intent by the person – initials at the very least. This is still a matter of belief, not a fecking impulse choice.
                               
                      Secondly, students should be able to choose democratically what a null-statement means.
                      Opt-out means no response=membership. Opt-in means no-response = non-membership.
                             
                      Thirdly, it would cut needless bureaucracy costs to the institution to not bother with tick-boxes if it’s opt-out, (given that so few actually bleat “help help I’m being oppressed”). But then manually processing separate opt-ins from the number of students who actually do want to join an association would be even more expensive than a tickbox system, so that might be useful for opt-in.
                             
                      But, to summarise your position ( ;) ), all the government had to do was amend the process for expressing individual objection for membership to simply making the institution aware of the choice? Rather than the overkill bumf they actually passed?
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      The way I would do it is not have automatic opt-in but when you first sign up, as a first year, your enrollment pack comes with all the information you require to make an informed choice in the matter. Detailing what you get (and what you miss out on) by electing to either join (or not join) the union. The union can write it in as much compelling language as they want (outside of obvious threats and emotive/leading language).

                      If someone chooses to join – all good.
                      If not then a second letter could be sent, say mid semester, detailing the things the union has done/will do/what you missed etc etc and asking if they want to join the following semester to take advantage of membership.

                      Finally all students receive an end-of-year union report, those that want to join will be able to make that decision on an informed basis. Those that don’t, well they don’t have to.

                      That is similar to how the PSA did it when I worked in Public service

                    • McFliper

                      you do realise that almost all of the bagfulls of material handed out at orientation ends up on the footpath or in the bin pretty sharpish?
                           
                      So what do you do with the null responses?
                               
                      My position is that is someone is opposed to membership, then fine, they shouldn’t be in the association. But an awful lot of folk don’t give a shit either way, even if they’re aware of great reasons to join like “we built the year’s social programme on a non-profit basis” or “we have an independent advocate who knows the labyrinthine academic appeals process better than most lecturers”. Remember the demographic – how many people that age by insurance for their car?
                             
                      But if they don’t give a damn either way, no harm no foul. 

                    • TheContrarian

                      I’m not talking about handouts rather something the is part of the documents sent to you when you first decide to start university. As part of enrollment.

                      There wouldn’t be a null response because it would be a required field as part of completing an enrollment form.

                      In saying that, although I disagree with auto-membership without choice, if there were to be some sort of auto membership then it should come with an expiry after the first semester. You’ll receive a letter/email explaining what you have paid for and what you received and to continue with membership simply free-post the envelope or reply to the email.

                      No response = membership voided.
                      But if people never noticed or never cared they are likely to conitnue membership, particularly if it is coming out of a student loan so it isn’t like you are getting any more money back as was the case with me as I was paying cash up front.

                    • McFliper

                      Well:
                      A) you still get a load of shite in the course approval pack, because it’s one of the earliest opportunities for every other institution service to get a look in.
                       
                      B) why on earth would you make membership of an external body a mandatory field for a tertiary institution? Will it be for just one body, or every association that wants to get a foothold on that campus? 
                         
                      C) why would you arbitrarily terminate a membership based on no guidance whatsoever? At least with my plan other students get to decide which is the better option.
                           
                      You seem to be fixated on low-intensity systems that are highly inappropriate to a tertiary education environment.
                           

                    • TheContrarian

                      You seem to be saying because there is so much shit for people to read and they ignore most of it anyway (or throw it out) then they should just be signed up without their knowledge or permission.

                      C) why would you arbitrarily terminate a membership based on no guidance whatsoever? At least with my plan other students get to decide which is the better option.

                      Or the other way round then, if you wish to leave the association then the onus is on you to reply in the negative.

                    • McFliper

                      sorry, went to pub

                      You seem to be saying because there is so much shit for people to read and they ignore most of it anyway (or throw it out) then they should just be signed up without their knowledge or permission.

                      But so were you, on your one semester trial plan.
                      If people care about membership one way or t’other, their decision should be abided by. I think we agree there.
                         
                      But if they don’t care enough to tick a box, that’s a null response. Why not go by the majority decision of students in that case? Surely that’s better than a default set by central government? 

                      C) why would you arbitrarily terminate a membership based on no guidance whatsoever? At least with my plan other students get to decide
                      which is the better option.

                      Or the other way round then, if you wish to leave the association then the onus is on you to reply in the negative.

                      erm – yes. that’s the “opt-out” option mentioned earlier. 
                           
                      ps: see how we’re having a real discussion? Amazingly off-topic and suited to open mike, but at the same time it’s not just a repetition of the same circular arguments? We’re a snifter close to agreement. 
                       

                    • TheContrarian

                      I can’t keep this discussion going any longer. It’s been 48 hours and that is enough I think.

                      My belief is that people should be free to join, or not join, an association or union in line with the Bill of Rights. Membership should be as easy to join as it is to not join. If someone chooses not to join they should be free to do so without having to make a CO (because personal choice shouldn’t be reliant on the say so of others) and no money should exchange hands if someone makes that decision.

                    • McFliper

                      48 hrs is long enough?
                         
                      well if you hadn’t dicked about with pointless repetition we might have gotten somewhere in that time. Remember that for later.

                    • TheContrarian

                      How about go fuck yourself.

                      [lprent: And there was a point there somewhere about why right? Ummm. Seems like a pointless comment. ]

                    • McFliper

                      awwww, now who’s doing ad homs?

            • Matthew Whitehead 4.1.2.1.1.2

              1) Did you just attempt to derail a discussion and then complain that it’s getting off topic? LOL.

              2) I don’t mind if you don’t join, but you should still have to pay. :)

  5. There is no way unions should be banned.

    If someone wants to join a union they should be allowed too.

    Just as there is no way someone should be forced to join a union or be abused for not joining a union.

    • One Tāne Viper 5.1

      Just as you shouldn’t be abused for peddling lame right-wing bullshit. Expressions of sympathy and offers of sheltered housing would be more appropriate.

    • Go away Brett.  You keep spouting a myth without a skerrick of evidence and you are attempting to derail the thread.

      • Brett Dale 5.2.1

        Hey micky:

        Uhm i worked as a kitchenhand in the 90′s didnt join a union and a few people had some choice words for me and told me to be careful, I know what they were inferring.

        Im not trying to derail the thread.

        Im saying it works both ways, EVERYBODY should have the RIGHT to join a UNION.

        Just as EVERYBODY should have the right NOT to join a union.

        There should be NO pressure wither way.

        • higherstandard 5.2.1.1

          So you support the employee in this case ?

        • Bill 5.2.1.2

          Hey Brett, hows about a response to my comment at 1.2 instead of peppering the thread with variations of the same line?

        • McFliper 5.2.1.3

          Were you taking the conditions gained by union negotiators? Did the union collective contract become the de facto individual contract?

        • framu 5.2.1.4

          well it did take you four comments to get to any sort of debateable point brett – i mean, if it quacks like a duck.

          now that you have made a point – how is it even relevant? If your trying to say that you support the employee here, just say so! – otherwise people will think your full of it

          i also worked as a kitchen hand in multiple places during the 90s – hardly a hot bed of unionism mate.

          your comments so far reek of overly precious BS

          • Brett Dale 5.2.1.4.1

            framu:

            Perhaps the place I worked in was the exception to the rule?

            In terms of the employee and employer in this case, well its a bit different, the left has
            a huge stake in The Hobbit, failing, because if it does, they think it makes John Key look bad.

            • Pascal's bookie 5.2.1.4.1.1

              What a crock of shit.

            • framu 5.2.1.4.1.2

              perhaps it was

              but you know that bit where you take four comments to get to a point?

              maybe you wouldnt get so much sh|t if you just got there on the first one?

              —————

              oh… i just read the second part of your reply – i see where back into utter unsubstantiated BS again

              Did you not listen to the audio where the employer specifically states that the problem is the union membership?

              you cant help yourself can you?

        • One Tāne Viper 5.2.1.5

          “Choice words.”

          Bludger. Freeloader. Treacherous cretin.

          That’s not abuse. It’s description.

          • Polish Pride 5.2.1.5.1

            Only in your world OTV

            • felixviper 5.2.1.5.1.1

              Good for you, PP, standing up for the right to benefit from the hard work of others without doing any yourself.

              • Blue

                Felix says “standing up for the right to benefit from the hard work of others without doing any yourself.” Oooooh the irony. I thought thats what left wing politics was.

                • KJT

                  Unions are about getting a fair price for someones work.

                  Talk about reversal.

                  The RIGHT is about parasites stealing the products of workers labour.

                  The left is about getting social insurance, that WE PAY FOR. Not these bludgers.
                  http://kjt-kt.blogspot.co.nz/2011/03/kia-ora-yeah-we-should-be-doing.html

                  “Yeah we should be doing something about those on State welfare.

                  Banks and finance companies who fail with Government guarantees. And the insider traders who buy into them knowing they will fail and be bailed out.
                  Employers who can pay low wages because the state takes up the slack with WFF and childcare allowances.
                  Poor employers who drive good ones out of business because labour laws are so slack.
                  State owned companies given away to corporates for cents on the dollar.
                  External subsidies from ratepayers to dirty Dairy.
                  Employers given handouts to employ people who then get rid of them when the subsidy ends so they can get someone else who is subsidised.
                  Employers whose workforce are trained by the State..
                  Banks getting windfall profits when the OCR is raised.
                  Currency speculators who short the NZ dollar.
                  Really wealthy people who use a larger share of the countries resources, but structure their affairs so they do not pay taxes to cover their costs.
                  Fathers who use trusts to avoid paying child maintenance.
                  Farmers who have their hands out when they have floods, but do not have any taxable income.
                  State funded Police protection against people they have disenfranchised.

                  Politicians who accept an income from the people of NZ, while they sell them, and the country out, to their sponsors from private corporates.

                  Yep we really do need to cut welfare.””

                • felixviper

                  What’s ironic about you being wrong?

        • quartz 5.2.1.6

          I know what they were inferring

          They were “implying”. “Inferring” is what you did.

        • mike 5.2.1.7

          Hey Brett I can’t seem find the post in this thread where someone argues that unions using intimidation to get people to join is ok.

          Or are you just saying that when someone gets fired for being a union member the union has no right to complain about it because someone tried to push you into a union when you were a kitchenhand in the 90s? If so please keep taking the pills.

          Or just having a wee tr0ll perhaps.

          • Brett Dale 5.2.1.7.1

            Mike:

            No one should be fired for wanting to join a union. Lets wait for the facts of this case to play out.

            I 100% believe the Unions and the left have used this to make The Hobbit fail because they think it looks bad for national, when if the Hobbit is a roaring success it create more EMPLOYMENT for New Zealand actors.

            Surly the Unions want that? Or are they just about their political ideology.

            • PJ 5.2.1.7.1.1

              The Union wanted NZ actors, working in their own country, to have the opportunity to discuss having the same terms and conditions applied to them as the overseas actors filling roles of the same scale. In any and all films shot here, not just The Hobbit.

              • Akldnut - ASP

                Brett
                “………… Lets wait for the facts of this case to play out.”

                then

                “I 100% believe the Unions and the left have used this to make The Hobbit fail because they think it looks bad for national”

                Did the facts come out between when you started typing and when you finished?

                I call Bullshit Troll

              • Skinny

                Right on PJ! I laughed when I heard Key got a payment for appearing on the Letterman show ‘ paid actor.’

            • One Tāne Viper 5.2.1.7.1.2

              “Used this to make the Hobbit fail”

              Yes, your Union overlords have the power to do this. On Planet Brett.

              Have a little lie-down before you get altitude sickness.

            • mike 5.2.1.7.1.3

              So you’re waiting for the facts before you pass judgement on the employees case, but you’re going ahead with claiming that the Unions and ‘the left’ have used this case to ‘make The Hobbit fail’? K. I mean it about the pills bro.

              If you’re saying that the Unions and ‘the left’ have used the National party’s balls up over employment issues in general regarding The Hobbit to willfully cause the film to fail, that would be a topic separate to the OP, (unless you’re trying to imply that this could be some kind of stunt by said devious players, but that would seem to be at odds with your staunch ‘wait for the facts’ philosophy).

              You’ve lost me on how this ties in with your kitchenhand days.

  6. higherstandard 6

    Idiot employer who clearly wants to get rid of someone he doesn’t like, hasn’t played by the rules and will now be fucked over mercilessly by the employee and fair enough to.

  7. Pascal's bookie 7

    bretty boy.

    In another thread you were saying the left blogs should just let evryone say what they want pretty much.

    On this thread you’ve spammed the same comment three times and failed to engage in any sort of rational discussion about your own comments.

    Are you seeing what I’m driving at?

    When you raise something, and get a reply, and respond by just starting another subthread based on the same damn thing, readers are going to assume you are being a dick. that’s because you are being a dick. And calling you a dick isn’t attacking you needlessly, or censoring you, it’s just describing your behavior.

  8. Cato 8

    To be fair to Brett, union violence, intimidation and corruption is a pretty well-documented phenomenon. I think you’d have to be more loyal to partisanship than reason not to concede that. It’s a big part of the reason why such large swathes of workers are sceptical of the union movement.

    That, however, has nothing to do with the case at hand PROVIDED that the CTU release is presenting all the relevant facts in a fair manner. That’s a big proviso though, and I don’t see any concession from the tour guide operator that that was the reaon for the sacking. I wouldn’t want to rush to judgment until the rest of it comes out.

      • sweetd 8.1.1

        Is this an illegal recording? If the other party was not aware of the recording and did not give permission I think it might be, therefore everything on it, is inadmissible.

        • Pascal's bookie 8.1.1.1

          AFAIK you can record any convo you are party to

        • felixviper 8.1.1.2

          Pascal is correct but it goes even further.

          Any conversation can be recorded by anyone as long as at least one of the parties in the conversation is aware that it is being recorded, i.e. you don’t have to be part of the convo to record it.

          Admissibility in court is another matter, but as far as I know this isn’t one.

          • McFliper 8.1.1.2.1

            Wow.
                   
            Listening to the tape certainly shows the true motives for dismissal. 
                 
             

    • One Tāne Viper 8.2

      “Well documented.”

      Your opinion ≠ credible source.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3

      To be fair to Brett, union violence, intimidation and corruption is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.

      Yep, it is:

      When Union violence has occurred, it has frequently been in the context of industrial unrest.[1] Union violence is generally a defensive measure carried out against guards or strikebreakers during attempts to undercut strikes.[dubious – discuss][1] Violence has ranged from isolated acts by individuals, to wider campaigns of organised violence to further union goals within an industrial dispute.

      And so is anti-union violence:

      Violence against unions may be isolated, or may occur as part of a campaign that includes spying, intimidation, impersonation, disinformation, and sabotage.[1] Violence in labor disputes may be the result of unreasonable polarization, or miscalculation. It may be willful and provoked, or senseless and tragic. On some occasions, violence in labor disputes may be purposeful and calculated,[2] for example the hiring and deployment of goon squads to intimidate, threaten or even assault strikers.

      • Cato 8.3.1

        Sorry DTB went to post before but saw this comment instead.

        Oh absolutely – I’m not saying unions have a monopoly on intimidation and violence – not at all. And examples of union misbehaviour do not obliterate the fact that unions play a legitimate and important function in advancing members interests and evening up bargaining power.

        But unions are human institutions, right? Shop stewards aren’t morally impeccable. Like all human institutions there is a latent potential for corruption.

        That’s why its foolish to try and deny that, where unions have been powerful, abuse and intimidation have occured. If you’re open minded on the subject try reading The Enemy Within by Robert F Kennedy – hardly a raging right-winger.

        It’s naive in extremis to assume that, because on the whole unions are good things, that the history and reputation of union violence is a complete false-consciousness fabrication. Moreover, claiming that it hasn’t been a problem in the past so jars with the memory of any living person who worked a blue collar job when unions did have clout that it damages unions today. What is needed is an acknowledgment that unions are imperfect and a focus on ensuring they are transparent and deal fairly members and non-members alike.

        As I said, however, that doesn’t touch on the matters this case raises, however.

        • karol 8.3.1.1

          Robert Kennedy is hardly radical left – according to this, he was centre left on economic issues and left on social policies.

          I think he was a bit anti-union. 

          • Pascal's bookie 8.3.1.1.1

            And the US is kind of an exceptional case.

            Although, any Kennedy of that era lambasting the US unions for their well documented links to crime figures et al, takes some balls, as they say.

            • Cato 8.3.1.1.1.1

              I would agree that RFK was no radical leftist (at least not in that era) but the congressional findings speak for themselves. Furthermore, while the US is a special case (as is the case with US corporations) it would be naive not to heed the lessons learned there.

              • karol

                And, yet, we see more court cases in NZ involving mismanagement and corruption among business owners or managers, than among union leaders.

              • Pascal's bookie

                it would be naive not to heed the lessons learned there

                Well sure, but it would be foolish indeed to generalise from the US experience. What are the lessons? That unions will be corrupt in a corrupt milieu? That if you criminalise organisation, organisers will team up with criminals?

                The unions in the US didn’t hook up with the mafia because of any inherent thing about unionism, but because of things to do with the political and social environment, the same things that led to the rise and power of the mafia itself.

                One could draw the lesson for the US that the attitude towards labour that led to the use of groups like the Pinkertons, and events like the battle of Blair mountain ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain ) forced workers to be more militant in their organising.

                But I think the real lesson is that the US is an exceptional case, with many warnings that don’t really apply elsewhere due to the unique history of the left in the US.

    • Te Reo Viper 8.4

      “To be fair to Brett, union violence, intimidation and corruption is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.”

      Firstly, you don’t have to be fair to Brett, he’s already fair to middling. Secondly, it’s all Lombard Street to a china orange that you can’t substantiate the second part of the sentence in a local context.

      re: the recording, unless the other party consented to the recording, it’s inadmissable in court. But neither the Labour Department Mediation service nor the Employment Relations Authority are a court. The employer’s in deep doodoo and can look forward to copping substantial financial penalties and the reasonable prospect of having to rehire the worker concerned..

    • felixviper 8.5

      “To be fair to Brett, union violence, intimidation and corruption is a pretty well-documented phenomenon.”

      That’s true, but not in the sense you imagine. Industrial action has resulted in two killings in NZ to date, neither of them perpetrated by the workers’ side.

    • geoff 8.6

      Why the hell should anyone be fair to Brett?? He’s a completely ignorant right wing twat who has managed to hijack this entire post. I’m beginning to think he’s actually a spam-bot that’s running on one of the National Party Research Unit servers.

      [lprent: Unfortunately not. He is a real person, and as much as I frequently get personally irritated with his boneheaded stubbornness, he usually sticks within my interpretation of the policy so he doesn't get moderated. You just have to argue more effectively. He actually does respond to argument. It just may take a while. :twisted: ]

      • Brett Dale 8.6.1

        Geoff:

        Im right Wing huh?

        Lets see I hate fox news, I love President Obama, I hate the gop. Im pro choice, im for gay marriage, I believe the rich should be tax more, I believe tax dollars should go to health and education, I believe in climate change, I believe in gun control.

        How the heck is that right wing?

        I just hate hypocrisy, I believe the new zealand left wing blogosphere is turning into our left wing version of the disgusting Faux news.

        • framu 8.6.1.1

          “I just hate hypocrisy”

          you must really hate yourself then bretty brett

          do we have to go up thread where your saying that we should wait for all the facts then condemming and judging unionists in the same comment?

          dear mods – OK i’ll stop now – getting off topic and ending up brett baiting instead

          • Polish Pride 8.6.1.1.1

            I particularly like the fact that Brett can frame an argument WITHOUT having to insert an insult or put down or snide comment directed at the person whose post he is responding to. A skill many on here seem to struggle a great deal with. “bretty brett” – seriously!?!
            It is a sad but common theme..

            • framu 8.6.1.1.1.1

              oh cry me a river

              the reactions brett gets is solely because of the way he behaves

              if hes wants to behave like a kid who cant make a decent argument he will get treated like one

              geez PP its almost like you havent read the ongoing childish, trollish behaviour brett has displayed in this thread.

              Its funny this “oh, your calling him names” thing that crops up here from time to time. Ever notice how theres lots of discussion where people REALLY dont agree but theres no name calling because people are actually engaging in honest, well thought out debate? (thats not to deny the opposite doesnt happen of course)

            • Pascal's bookie 8.6.1.1.1.2

              PP, you may have missed that Brett hasn’t actually made much in the way of an argument. Lots of accusations and assertions, but a singular failure to justify them.

            • felixviper 8.6.1.1.1.3

              Err, in this very thread he has

              1. named an person who blogs under a pseudonym,
              2. lied about details of her real life,
              3. lied about her online activities as well, accusing her of some pretty horrible things,
              4. accused a political party of being responsible for the things he made up.

              Which of those do you not find insulting, snide, or sad?

              • hey felix:

                The person I name, has her name on her blog, and her name is known on the other blog she has written for.

                She has written opinion pieces at the Waikato times andnzherald under her name.

                So I havent outed her if that is what you are suggesting, she is known with her work with (IWCNZ)

                I have never lied about her online activities, go ahead ask her and she will admit deleting comments in the comment section and then telling that person where to go.

                I didnt lie about her details of her life, that was poor writing, I said she was labour list MP, which was factually incorrect, instead of saying “she was on the labour party list.

                • felixviper

                  I checked her blog.

                  She never did the things you accuse her of.

                  You lied.

                  • Yes she did felix and here is the link.

                    http://thehandmirror.blogspot.co.nz/2011/07/yet-another-burqa-post.html

                    stargazer said…
                    thanx cara, appreciate your post. lucy, sorry i haven’t got back to you, but was too tired last night & pretty busy today.

                    fish, i see that you don’t care to respect anyone’s boundaries or polite requests, so i’m telling you to piss off. you aren’t welcome on this blog, anywhere. an inability to respect that fact clearly shows you for the asshole you are. you are perfectly free to start your own blog & make as many moronic comments there as you like. just leave ours alone.
                    Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:55:00 PM

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      Yes, liar, you dig your hole even deeper when you prove that when you said she censors different opinions, you were lying.

                    • NoseViper (The Nose knows)

                      Is Brett a troll that wastes space and time here or not? Is he useful as an irritant like a thorn in the skin?

  9. Skinny 9

    Commonly known as Union Busting and it’s ‘illegal.’

      There is a terrible under tone happening here with active union members being targeted for standing up for workers rights. Take health & safety as an example. Raise concerns and get singled out for special treatment from the employer. It is unjust behavior that leads to workers not rocking the boat safety wise i.e. Pike River.

     Yes and John Keys Union busting antic’s fuels totally unacceptable behavior by mongrel Bosses, who are more interested in higher dividend returns for shareholders than the safety & wellbeing of the worker!

    Hearing today the crap the Justice Department ( National Government are pulling the strings on this) are trying on ‘affected’ IT workers is disgraceful. Basically the JD has facilitated jobs as contractors to a Jap outfit on inferior conditions, including no rights to redundancy payments & in the contract a waiver to litigating against the major 
    Contractor. This is a blatant attempt to shield the Justice Department thru a second tier layer by the right!

    Let’s see some action in the house from Fenton, Roche & Horan < '.' Stand up and deliver!   

    • Rosie 9.1

      Skinny is right. “Commonly known as Union busting and its illegal”. As is Helen Kelly of course.. Its not a case of Todd Rippon shouldn’t be fired for being a Union member, its he “can’t” be fired on those grounds. It should be a clear cut personal grievance claim.

      http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/starting/unions/rights-engaged-in-activities.asp

      It will be interesting to see if this latest bit of Hobbit news makes it to other countries who take their union rights and employment law a little more seriously than we do.

  10. If the union is trying to effect Hobbit tickets overseas, then one thats disgusting because it effects jobs here, secondly they are delusional, it will have no effect.

    • McFliper 10.1

      lol
           
      Besides the complete bullshit of your statement, if it exists but has no effect then there’s no need for disciplinary action of any sort. So why fire anyone?

    • VindowViper 10.2

      Well yes. Personally I hope The Hobbit bombs. (And some of the reviews suggest this is not such a vain hope.)

      Yes it’s a hard and bad thing for the jobs that will be lost; but our experience with this industry tells us that they were highly likely to be lost anyway. There will always be somewhere else willing to do it cheaper and as long as the industry is controlled by non-New Zealanders … cheaper will always win. Our national interests will not count.

      The sooner the illusion is popped the better in the long run.

    • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 10.3

      This is getting stale Brett. Nobody is trying to flop a movie. A guy was sacked illegally.

      Wake up or keep off the ale Dale.

      • Brett Dale 10.3.1

        So fender with all the other cases there are around the country, why does the ctu mention this one?

        • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 10.3.1.1

          Because it’s relevant and needs to be highlighted don’t you think? Gross abuse of workers rights Brett.

          It’s only a stunt in your movie plot mind because you seem to have strong dislike for Unions.

    • rosy viper 10.4

      If the union is trying to effect Hobbit tickets overseas

      I think you mixed up effect and affect. In the context of your post that’s important.

      On second thoughts – I’ll take it as written.

  11. Im saying the Union is doing its best to make the Hobbit look bad, because they think if they effect its ticket sales, it will look bad for John Key.

    The union should be hoping for its success.

    In the case of this union member that got fired, if its proven his firing was unjustified then yes he should get compensated.

    • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 11.1

      “In the case of this union member that got fired, if its proven his firing was unjustified then yes he should get compensated”

      This is the only thing you have correct Brett. So stop repeating your other bs ranting.

      The Hobbit isn’t Keys’ movie no matter how much he may wish it to be Brett.

      • Brett Dale 11.1.1

        Will just have to wait until the facts come out with this case, and see what happens.

      • Brett Dale 11.1.2

        I agree, its got nothing to do with key, doesnt matter if its a success or not, some though are trying to paint that way.

        • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 11.1.2.1

          There is a connection to Key though isn’t there, with his Warner/Jackson gang beating up on workers so movie makers can buy an extra mansion per film each with their added profit scam our PM arranged.

          They could star in their own Great Train Robbery remake and order some wagons from Hillside, oh hold on.

          • Brett Dale 11.1.2.1.1

            Fender

            Seriously?

            The warner/jackson gang, beating up on workers? to they can buy an extra mansion????

            Are you that dumb?

            • One Tāne Viper 11.1.2.1.1.1

              Careful Fender, the clown prince of unsubstantiated assertions thinks you might be making an unsubstantiated assertion. Don’t want to offend the hypocrite, now do we?

              • fender Viper

                I get the feeling Brett Dale is that fool james111 who used to come here spinning anti union crap.

  12. Richard 12

    Clearly a case of the powerful invisible hand sweeping all before him – how dare they threaten the golden egg. It’s got Politics written all over it. The guy has every right to join whatever union he chooses. You can’t however disect the actual dismissal publicaly but it sounded very unprofessional. Let’s face it National Govt hate unions and I would not be surprised if they get a third term the ERA will be ammended or scrapped. That’s why numbers are so important to National. We all know Hollywood have the govt on their knees over a few issues, it’s called a Fair Trade Agreement – dealing with the Stars and Stripes is one way traffic. Key has to stand up on this which will humiliate him. That’s why he won’t. Maybe Brendan Horan could do it.

    • higherstandard 12.1

      What’s this got to with the government.

      It’s an issue for the employment lawyers as it is a simple employment dispute, which does make one wonder why Todd chose to play this out in the media and why the CTU is blowing it up for their own particular political purposes ?

      • Te Reo Viper 12.1.1

        Yeah, HS, the government has no interest in the Hobbit at all. It’s not like they randomly changed employment law and bunged $30 million to the makers of the film, is it?

        • higherstandard 12.1.1.1

          What has this employment case got to do with the government ?

          • Te Reo Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            Have a coffee, HS, you’re not very sharp this morning. As well as the reason I’ve given above, the complaint about the sacked worker allegedly came from a government agency, and the minister responsible for that sector is John Key, the same man who authorised wasting taxpayer’s money on the film and briefly ceded our sovereignty to Warners at the same time.

            The Government is responsible for an atmosphere where not liking the Hobbit, or even being thought to not like the Hobbit, is considered a reason for dismissal. Hobbit hater, remember?

            • Pascal's bookie 12.1.1.1.1.1

              “There is no connection between the blacklist (and it’s eventual retraction) and the choice of production base for The Hobbit”

            • higherstandard 12.1.1.1.1.2

              I realise both you and the CTU are desperate for this to be pinned on Key and the government but there’s really quite weak justification for that when the allegation has already been denied by the agency in question.

              As I asked previously why isn’t this being progressed through an employment lawyer and what is the rationale for the CTU playing it out in the media ?

              More to the point what does Todd want as an outcome as he, IMO, is the injured party ?

            • Jenny Michie 12.1.1.1.1.3

              John Key said this morning on MR that:
              A) if someone wants to belong to a union, they can; and
              B) that he would never get involved an employment dispute.

              What on earth did he think he was doing 2 years ago when his government unilaterally changed NZ’s employment law to placate Warner’s in order to ‘settle’ an employment dispute?

              Hypocrisy. Historically something that will eventually bring politicians and governments down. Of course it does require a semi-conscious electorate so I’m not holding my breath.

  13. One Tāne Viper 13

    Dear sub-pontal wingnuts who have been waiting for all the facts to come out making up your own facts.

    Listen to the recording.

  14. One Tāne Viper 14

    NRT: “Hopefully this shitty little tourism company will receive an expensive reminder that the law still applies…”

    And there’s the problem right there. So long as the only penalty is a fine, criminal scum will continue to harass and attack working New Zealanders.

    Criminalise this treachery. The low-life should be looking at a five year stretch on top of the fine the company will receive.

    • Te Reo Putake 14.1

      Just back of the envelope stuff, OTH, but $5k for the unfair dismissal (maybe more for the aggravating factor), maybe another $5-10k for lost income, another few grand for hurt and humiliation, and a real possibility of being ordered to reinstate the worker. That’s a pretty comprehensive thumping for the employer, who is presumably running a relatively small business.

      Not excusing the behaviour, but it doesn’t require criminal charges to make this hurt the boss concerned.

      • One Tāne Viper 14.1.1

        I’m thinking more in terms of the stigma that a criminal conviction carries: the clear message it sends to the low-life that they are despised by society. The clear message it sends to employees that employers who treat them this way are regarded in the same way that most of us see violent gang members.

        The beneficial effect of removing scum from the pool of potential employers, with the flow-on effect that good employers no longer have to compete with the lowest common denominator.

        The elevation of basic human rights above the “nice to have” status that they are currently afforded.

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    Mana | 25-08
  • Labour’s culture of science and innovation
    Labour will create a culture of science and innovation in New Zealand that will be the envy of the world, says Labour’s Innovation, Research and Development spokesperson Megan Woods. “Labour believes that good science lies at the heart of a...
    Labour | 25-08
  • Improving life for our new New Zealanders
    New Zealand’s international standing as a community that encourages and fosters all cultures will be bolstered under a Labour Government with an upgrade of the present Office of Ethnic Affairs to a Ministry. Releasing Labour’s Ethnic Affairs policy, spokesperson Phil...
    Labour | 25-08
  • South Auckland housing crisis
    National’s HomeStart package is nothing more than a political stunt designed to beguile South Auckland voters, said Labour’s Pacific Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio. “Few working Pasifika and Maori workers in South Auckland will be able to buy their own...
    Labour | 25-08
  • Home buyer subsidy discredited in Oz
    Treasury advised against National’s policy of ramping up home buyer subsidies after it was discredited in Australia because it pushed house prices even higher, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “Documents released under the OIA (attached) show Treasury advised the...
    Labour | 25-08
  • Nursing hours explain turnover and high-stress culture
    A staff survey supports concerns nursing staff at Dunedin Hospital are under increasing pressure and that the emergency department is in a critical state, says Labour’s Associate Health Spokesperson David Clark.  “An ED nursing survey at Dunedin found that 80...
    Labour | 24-08
  • Underhand tactics prove case for axing donations
    Revelations that schools are using underhand tactics to coerce donations from cash-strapped parents further highlights the need for Labour's plan to increase funding so they aren't dependent on contributions from parents, Labour's Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “By law New...
    Labour | 24-08
  • National applies band-aid to housing crisis
    The Government’s flagship housing announcement is a band-aid approach that will push up prices rather than solve the housing crisis, says Labour Leader David Cunliffe. “House sales to first home buyers have collapsed as a direct result of the Government’s...
    Labour | 24-08
  • Climate change focus on the now for the future
    A Labour Governmentwill put in place a comprehensive climate change strategy focusing on bothmitigation and adaptation, establish an independent Climate Commission andimplement carbon budgeting, says Labour Climate Change spokesperson MoanaMackey."This is about future-proofing our economy. Making the transition to alow-carbon...
    Labour | 24-08
  • Labour’s 21st century transport pledge
    The next Labour-led Government will create a 21st century transport system for New Zealand that promotes the most efficient and sustainable combination of transport options, says Labour’s Transport spokesperson Phil Twyford. “Labour will rebalance the Government's transport spending away from...
    Labour | 23-08
  • Housing under National: the facts
    1.       House prices in Auckland Council valuations indicate Auckland house prices have gone up by one-third over the last three years. (Auckland Council) The average Auckland house price has gone up by nearly $225,000 since 2008, up over $75,000 in...
    Labour | 23-08
  • Labour irons out low income tax issue
    The increasing casualisation of work has led to many New Zealand families being disadvantaged through the tax they pay, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. "Many low paid workers are having to work two or three jobs to make ends meet...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Cornered Government comes out swinging
    The National Government is so desperate to keep its dead-in-the-water expert teachers policy alive, it has refused to rule out forcing schools to participate through legislation, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “John Key today attacked the Educational Institute for...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Pacific people continue to go backwards under National
    A report from Victoria University highlights the fact that Pacific people are continuing to go backwards under a National Government, said Labour’s Pacific Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio.  “The report shows the largest inequality increases were in smoking, obesity, tertiary...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Wellington transport plan needs to keep moving
    The failure of the Transport Agency to properly look at alternatives to the Basin Reserve flyover is not a good reason for further delays to improving transport in Wellington, Labour MPs Grant Robertson and Annette King say. “The Board of...
    Labour | 22-08
  • Labour’s focus on inequality, kids and better job prospects
    Tackling child poverty and removing barriers to people working part time to enhance their prospects of moving into a fulltime job are highlights of Labour’s Social Development policy. Releasing the policy today, spokesperson Sue Moroney said while part-time work was...
    Labour | 21-08
  • Political staff should give answers under oath
    The Inspector General of Security and Intelligence should use her full statutory powers to question witnesses under oath about the leak of SIS information, says Labour MP Phil Goff. “Leakage of confidential information from the SIS for political purposes is...
    Labour | 21-08
  • High dollar, hands-off Govt sends workers to dole queue
    The loss of up to 100 jobs at Croxley stationery in Auckland is devastating news for their families and the local Avondale community, Labour’s Employment, Skills and Training spokesperson Grant Robertson says. “The company’s inability to compete in international markets...
    Labour | 21-08
  • National’s flagship education policy dead in the water
    National’s plan to create executive principals and expert teachers is effectively dead in the water with news that 93 percent of primary teachers have no confidence in the scheme, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “The fact that teachers are...
    Labour | 21-08
  • Dunedin will be a knowledge and innovation centre under Labour
    Dunedin will become a knowledge and innovation centre under a Labour Government that will back local businesses, support technology initiatives and fund dynamic regional projects, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. “Nowhere has the National Government’s short-sightedness been more apparently than...
    Labour | 21-08
  • Inquiry into SIS disclosures the right decision
    Labour MP Phil Goff says the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has done the right thing by launching an inquiry into the disclosure of SIS documents about a meeting between himself and the agency’s former director-general. “This inquiry is necessary...
    Labour | 20-08
  • Labour – supporting and valuing carers and the cared for
    Placing real value on our elderly and the people who care for them will be a priority for a Labour Government, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. Releasing Labour’s Senior Citizens policy today David Cunliffe promised that a Labour Government would...
    Labour | 20-08
  • By Hoki! It’s Labour’s fisheries policy
    A Labour Government will protect the iconic Kiwi tradition of fishing by improving access to the coast, protecting the rights of recreational fishers and reviewing snapper restrictions, Labour’s Fisheries spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. “Catching a fish from the rocks, beach...
    Labour | 20-08
  • Mighty River – Mighty Profits – Mighty hard to swallow
    Mighty River Power’s profit increase of 84 per cent is simply outrageous, says Labour’s Energy spokesperson David Shearer. “Demand for electricity is flat or declining yet the company has made enormous profits. It is the latest power company to celebrate...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Collins’ actions were wrong, not unwise
    John Key’s moral compass remains off-kilter as he cannot bring himself to declare Judith Collins’ actions outright wrong, not simply ‘unwise’, said Labour MP Grant Robertson. “Under pressure John Key is finally shifting his stance but his failure to condemn...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Public servants behaving with more integrity than their masters
    The State Services Commission's new report on the integrity of our state services reflects the yawning gap between the behaviour of public servants and that of their political masters, Labour's State Services spokesperson Maryan Street says. “This report, which surveyed...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Phil Twyford Speech to NZCID
    "Labour's plan to build more and build better: how new approaches to housing, transport and urban development will deliver cities that work" Phil Twyford, Labour Party spokesperson on housing, transport, Auckland issues, and cities.  ...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Labour commits to independent Foreign Affairs and Trade
    “Labour is committed to New Zealand’s Foreign Affairs and Trade policy being independent and proactive, Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer says. “We are a small but respected country. Our voice and actions count in international affairs. Labour will take a...
    Labour | 19-08
  • Key must sack Collins over abhorrent actions
    The latest revelations that Judith Collins sent the contact details of a public servant to WhaleOil in a desperate attempt to divert media attention from a bad story is abhorrent, Labour MP Grant Robertson says. “John Key and Judith Collins...
    Labour | 19-08
  • It’s downhill from here under National
    The forecast drop in exports and predicted halving of growth shows that it’s downhill from here with National, Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker says. “Growth under this Government peaked in June and halves to two per cent in coming years....
    Labour | 19-08
  • John Key loses moral compass over Collins
    John Key has lost his moral compass over Judith Collins’ involvement with Cameron Slater and lost touch with New Zealanders’ sense of right and wrong, Labour MP Grant Robertson says. “Whoever is Prime Minister there are expectations they will not...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Mana Movement General Election 2014 List confirmed
    The MANA List is now confirmed with all the candidates as below (the numbers are the respective Internet MANA rankings). Candidate, Electorate, Internet MANA List Position Hone Harawira, Te Tai Tokerau (1) Annette Sykes, Waiariki (3) John Minto, Mt Roskill (4) Te Hamua Nikora, Ikaroa-Rawhiti...
    Mana | 18-08
  • PREFU likely to confirm dropping exports
    National’s economic management will be put under the spotlight in tomorrow’s PREFU given clear signs the so-called rock star economy has fallen off the stage, with plummeting prices for raw commodity exports, Labour’s Finance spokesperson David Parker says. “Under National,...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Record profits while Kiwis face a cold winter
    The record profits by two of New Zealand’s largest electricity companies will be a bitter pill for New Zealand households who are paying record amounts for their power, says Labour’s Energy spokesperson David Shearer. “No doubt the Key government will...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Time for John Key to answer yes or no questions
    John Key’s train-wreck interview on Morning Report shows he is no longer capable of a simple yes or no answer and has lost touch with what’s right and wrong, Labour MP Grant Robertson says. “John Key has become so media...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Key must clarify who signed out SIS OIA
    Yet again John Key is proving incapable of answering a simple question on an extremely important issue – this time who signed off Cameron Slater’s fast-tracked SIS OIA request on Phil Goff, said Labour MP Grant Robertson. “John Key’s claim...
    Labour | 18-08
  • Time to invest in our tertiary education system
    A Labour Government will fully review the student support system – including allowances, loans, accommodation support and scholarships – with a view to increasing access and making the system fair, transparent and sustainable, Labour’s Tertiary Education spokesperson Maryan Street says....
    Labour | 17-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Denis Tegg – When Did We Agree To Our Data Being Shared with ...
    New shocking evidence has emerged from Edward Snowden’s trove of documents about a program called ICREACH under which data collected by the GCSB is shared with 23 US spy agencies. Under new sharing agreements which appear to have commenced immediately after...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Why Internet MANA are the best political friends the Greens could ever get
    Metiria at last nights #GreenRoomNZ: standing on the shoulders and camera cases of giants  NZers, regardless of political spectrum or apathy level, have a wonderful beach cricket egalitarianism about us. If we can objectively conclude a winner, then that person...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Sick of the Sleaze? Protest against National’s dirty politics THIS SATURD...
    Sick of the Sleaze? Protest now dammit! Three weeks before the election, action is being taken across the country voicing a rejection of the National Government’s track record and direction. Rallies are being held in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Sir Edmund Thomas – Address at Nicky Hager public meeting
    I regard it as privilege to chair this public meeting. I have long had the greatest admiration for Nicky Hager’s work, and nothing I have read or heard in the media over the past week or so has caused me...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Labour and New Zealand Superannuation
    The kerfuffle in the wake of Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics has had a detrimental impact on our discussion of economic policies. Signs are that the main beneficiaries of the dirty politics revelations will be Winston Peters and Colin Craig; certainly National suffered...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Coalition for Better Broadcasting – Mike Hosking and the Leader’s Debat...
    A few weeks ago I blogged that Mike Hosking was a terrible choice as moderator for the TV One Party Leader’s Debate, because he is so embarrassingly biased in favour of John Key. So I watched the show with curiosity,...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Democracy and Cancer: A critical analysis of Dirty Politics
    Twenty years ago, England’s renowned television playwright Denis Potter died of pancreatic cancer.  Readers may recall his two masterpieces ‘Pennies from Heaven’ and ‘The Singing Detective’.  During a final television interview with Melvyn Bragg, Potter declared that he had named...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Cunliffe beats Key in First Leaders debate
    I watched the First Leaders debate at the Green Party #GreenRoomNZ, they were very kind to include me and the atmosphere was great. The debate was a resounding victory to Cunliffe. He won Round 1, Round 2, Round 3 and...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • LIVE STREAM: The Green Room Leader’s Debate from 6:30pm
    The Green Room will be hosted by media commentator Russel Brown, and will feature Green Co-leaders Metiria Turei and Russel Norman responding to the debate live, along with comment from thought leaders and commentators. ‘The Green Room’ 6pm – 8.30pm...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • How many taxpayer funded staff does John Key need to prepare for a Leaders ...
    John Key is currently at the Auckland Stamford Plaza with 40 staff, 4 undercover police cars and an entire floor booked out in preparation for tonights Leader’s debate. Isn’t 40 staff including coms, flown up to Auckland for a debate...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • A brief word on National Party Rodney MP, Mark Mitchell
    MP considers legal action against Nicky HagerThe National MP says he is considering taking a defamation case after the September 20 election.“Someone needs to be held accountable,” he said. Oh really champ? Brothers and sisters, there is a long way...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Greens advertise on Whaleoil – but not on The Daily Blog?
    PaknSave have shown ethical compass and blocked adverts on Whaleoil, yet the Greens are advertising on Whaleoil, and not The Daily Blog? I would imagine there are far more potential Green voters on The Daily Blog then ever are on...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • It’s about the stupid economy stupid
    In focus group meetings, the sleepy hobbits of NZ by a staggering amount all believe that National are better economic stewards of the country than Labour, that’s why, instead of answering questions about blackmailing MPs, trawling brothels for dirt on...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • Labour Policy vs National Policy
    John Key’s favourite defence spin at the moment is people want to talk about policy and not hear answers on the ethics of trawling brothels, why Slater was given SIS information, blackmailing MPs into standing down, rigging candidate elections and hacking...
    The Daily Blog | 28-08
  • The Green Room live streamed on TDB 6.30pm tonight for First Leaders debate
    The ‘Green Room’ will stream 6.pm tonight on The Daily Blog during the TV One leaders’ debate.Use #GreenRoomNZ to join in. The Green Room will be hosted by media commentator Russel Brown, and will feature Green Co-leaders Metiria Turei and Russel Norman responding...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Manukau East – the next Coalition in action
    A couple of weeks ago I had the pleasure of opening Voice Up – a youth forum run by young people in Otara. I had been asked as Chair of the Local Board to set the scene, encouraging young people...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Kelly Ellis – The Big Bang Theory
    It’s a shame that it took a brain injury for me to start seeing things with such startling clarity. The realisation that lawyering, fishing, parenting, selling cars and racing yachts had common themes was stunning. Not perhaps as stunning as...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, how much Key aro...
    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking on Radio Hauraki...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • 5AA Australia – New Zealand’s Dirty Politics Aftermath and Polls
    MIL OSI – Source: Selwyn Manning – Analysis Headline: 5AA Australia – New Zealand’s Dirty Politics Aftermath and Polls 5AA Australia: On this week’s Across the Ditch bulletin on 5AA Australia, host Peter Godfery and Selwyn Manning discuss the aftermath...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • La’o Hamutuk calls for inquiry into Timor GAP ‘mismanagement’ of oil ...
    The Suai project on the South Coast … “liberated” land but confused communities.Photo: La’o Hamutuk David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific. AN INDEPENDENT Timor-Leste development and social justice agency has called for an inquiry into the Timor GAP corporation...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • What Is Nicky Hager?
    WHAT WILL HISTORY MAKE of Nicky Hager? That slight, perpetually boyish, journalist who descends periodically, like the admonishing angel in a medieval mystery play, to trouble our consciences and wreak merry havoc with the orderly conduct of our political affairs....
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Can anyone in msm explain how after Dirty Politics that they all got played...
    Would you not think, that after reading Dirty Politics, that our mainstream media wouldn’t allow themselves to get tricked and played again by the VERY SAME discredited pundits? The best new feature on Radio NZ is their ‘Blog Watch’ and their...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Crusher Collins caught out lying about Privacy Commissioner – is this her...
    Crusher angry. Crusher smash own career. Crusher more angry. You would think that after getting outed as such a nasty, vicious piece of work in Dirty Politics, that Crusher would be scrambling to dial back the lies and manipulations. Apparently...
    The Daily Blog | 27-08
  • Cunliffe vs Key – first leaders debate
    This is your election ‘moderator’ – just one more reason an incoming Government need to sack everyone at TVNZ and reform it into an actual public broadcaster. The first leaders debate happens this Thursday, 7pm on TV One. I have...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – An Old and Honourable Profession
      When Dirty Politics started to reference an ex-prostitute I began to get antsy. My first response was “come on Nicky, we decriminalised in 2003. Its sex worker.” My second response was “Ah oh. Who was it and did they...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Bought and paid for: the dirty politics of climate denial
    Has climate denial in New Zealand been bought and paid for by corporate interests? We already know that the ACT Party’s routine denial is closely linked to the financial support the party receives from wealthy free market fundamentalist Alan Gibbs,...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • If the msm read The Daily Blog, THIS wouldn’t be a surprise – explainin...
    Yawn. How embarrassing for Hamish Rutherford and Andrea Vance, their breathless article today suggests that the idea of Labour and NZ First cutting a  deal over the buy back of assets  is some how new news. Silly mainstream media  journalists. If...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • How much tax does John Key pay compared to a minimum wage worker??
    Yesterday I did some calculations to find out what tax John Key pays compared to a worker on the minimum wage. And I put out this media release for the Mana Movement: MANA Movement Economic Justice spokesperson John Minto is...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Hip hop death threats – the selective outrage of our media
    PM death threat in hip hop songAn Auckland hip-hop crew slammed for releasing a song with lyrics that apparently include a threat to kill Prime Minister John Key are urging young people to enrol to vote. Kill The PM, by...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Watch Slater turn into Key right before your eyes
    Watch Slater turn into Key right before your eyes...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • I don’t always agree with Patrick Gower – but he didn’t deserve this!
    I don’t always agree with Patrick Gower – but he didn’t deserve this weird spear tackle from behind by his own company. I was listening to this interview at the time, and the awkwardness of it must be the worst...
    The Daily Blog | 26-08
  • Is it weird Radio NZ ban me yet still have….
    Is it weird Radio NZ ban me for life because I criticised the Prime Minister yet still have Matthew Hooton, David Farrar and Jordan Williams, 3 of the main protagonists revealed in Dirty Politics as part of their ongoing political...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Christchurch GCSB meeting – why mass surveillance matters in 2014
    This is the video for last weeks GCSB meeting in Christchurch. Don’t forget Nicky Hager’s public meeting Wednesday night in Auckland, TDB will live stream the event in the interests of our democracy. Broadcast starts 7.30pm here on TDB....
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Assange, Greenwald to appear at Town Hall meeting? + KDC is not the hacker ...
    Wikileaks founder and the engineer of revealing some of the largest abuses of power in the modern era, Julian Assange, is rumoured to be appearing at the September 15th Town Hall meeting. Assange would join award winning investigative journalist Glen...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Why Paula Bennett will be the next leader and Hooton throws the Prime Minis...
    I don’t think the public have any idea of the behind the scenes meltdown now occurring within National. There are plenty of decent right wingers who all have ethical standards who have looked at what their leaders have been doing and...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – That Awkward Feeling When Your Campaign Goe...
    Urgh. It’s a thankless and nearly impossible task politically firefighting some days. Somebody (who isn’t you, but who’s in your care, or whom you’ve got a close professional relationship with) does or says something stupid; somebody from the Media’s there...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Trinder – Dirty politics goes viral
    Join the latest social networking craze this election that every Dog Cat and Jabba is putting on their facebook pages.     Joe Trinder – Ngāti Awa Born and born in Ōtepoti Ōtākou, Ex RNZN he is an Information Technology...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Blogwatch: An open letter to David Farrar: Please, be that guy
    Dear David, In light of  Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics, you wrote a blog entitled ‘Some changes on Kiwiblog’ and you suggested it was time to tighten up ship on your website, saying “I want to improve trust in myself,...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • What The Hell Was That! Reflections on the media’s coverage of the Intern...
    WHAT, EXACTLY, DO WE KNOW about the confrontation outside Internet-Mana’s campaign launch? Well, we know the news media was there in force. We also know Internet-Mana’s media person, Pam Corkery, blew her stack. We know that Corkery’s outburst led the...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • NZ First candidate – homophobic, bennie bashing anti-intellectual clown
    Oh God, apart from Ron Mark, Tracey Martin, Curwen Rolinson and Winston before midday, the woeful cavalcade of political circus freaks NZ First seem to attract has picked up another hitchhiker. This time Epsom candidate Cliff Lyon who said this about Labour… “If...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Nicky Hager Public Meeting LIVESTREAM on The Daily Blog 7.30pm Wednesday 27...
    As part of our commitment to the 2014 Election debate, The Daily Blog will Livestream the Nicky Hager public meeting in Auckland, 7.30pm live from the Mt Eden War Memorial this Wednesday on this site. Doors open at 7pm. It...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – Opening Night. It’s like an opera!
    On Saturday night just gone, we collectively experienced one of the premier panegyrys of political pageantry in our three yearly electoral cycle. For one glorious weekend evening every three years, it’s not the All Blacks or some Super 14 team, or...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, Unions – what ...
    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking on Radio Hauraki...
    The Daily Blog | 25-08
  • Timor-Leste’s Parliament handed ‘humiliating’ defeat over harsh media...
    East Timorese journalists raise their hands to approve the Timor-Leste JournalistCode of Ethics in October 2013. Photo: Tempo Semanal/Cafe Pacific   David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific. PACIFIC SCOOP reported this week that East Timor’s Appeal Court had scrapped...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • THIS is why we need a public broadcaster!
    The richest 20% of us in NZ own 70% of the wealth, with 18% in the hands of the second richest quintile, and 10% in the hands of the middle quintile. Just 2 per cent was owned by people in...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • A vote for Key is a vote for this
    A vote for Key is a vote for this...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • Why the Secret Intelligence Service feeding Cameron Slater information is s...
    Folks, it doesn’t matter if you are Right or Left, the issue of the Secret Intelligence Service being forced to feed a far right hate speech merchant like Cameron Slater with sensitive information is an ‘us’ issue. The SIS are...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • How lost and irrelevant are ACT?
    So ACT had it’s ‘launch’. Well, what passes as an ACT launch these days. Lot’s of anorak’s with that 1000 yard star and dreams of a Milton Friedman Free Market dancing behind their eyelids all crammed into a room small...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • National Party rowing advert aimed at Gen Xers
    Unkind wags such as myself would suggest that if the above were a real representation of National, it would look more like this…   National know they have the rural mob and the angry provincial vote locked in, with their...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • National Housing propaganda – McGehan Close Revisited
    .   . Housing has become a major, defining issue in New Zealand. We have critical shortages and escalating prices in  in the main centres and falling house values in the regions. The National government has addressed the supply &...
    The Daily Blog | 24-08
  • New Zealand’s biggest problems are Economic Issues
    New Zealand’s biggest problems are Economic Issues (41%) while the World’s most important problems are War & Terrorism (35%) just three weeks before NZ Election...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • NZ 2014 Leaders Index – week ending 29 August
    Below is iSentia’s first weekly Leaders’ Index, showing the relative amount of coverage of nine Party Leaders in the lead up to the National Election across news media and social media. We will produce these reports for the next three...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Judgment in Paki v Attorney General
    Tamaiti Cairns said that today’s Supreme Court decision is complicated, but, in essence opens the door for Maori people to go forward with their essential claims to water. Further work is required and Pouakani Trust will continue to pursue its...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Supreme Court Decision on Maori Water Rights
    “ … the Supreme Court refused to give Pouakani people what they asked for, but may have given them something much, much better instead. The Appellants had argued that the Crown’s ownership of the River was as a fiduciary for...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Leaders Dinner with Campbell Live, Dessert with RadioLIVE
    John Campbell is hosting Colin Craig, Winston Peters, Laila Harre, Metiria Turei, Peter Dunne, Jamie Whyte and Te Ururoa Flavell LIVE from Auckland’s Grand Harbour Restaurant on Wednesday 3 September at 7pm....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Credit unions in the political spotlight
    Dirty politics was put aside last night as senior politicians outlined their universal support for growing the cooperatively owned credit union and mutual building society sector in New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Maryan Street on issues of importance to older people
    Liam Butler interviews Hon Maryan Street MP on issues of importance to older New Zealanders...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • John Hanita Paki and others v The Attorney-General
    JOHN HANITA PAKI, TORIWAI ROTARANGI, TAUHOPA TE WANO HEPI, MATIU MAMAE PITIROI AND GEORGE MONGAMONGA RAWHITI v THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL OF NEW ZEALAND FOR AND ON BEHALF OF THE CROWN (“THE CROWN”) (SC 7/2010)...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Last Nights Leaders Debate Drives The #nzpol Wordcloud
    Following last nights leaders debate on TV One between John Key and David Cunliffe, the data insight organisation Qrious collected all tweets that used the hashtag #nzpol from approximately the last 24 hours to produce this wordcloud....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Campaign suggests reason behind suicide gender statistics
    An online campaign about meaning and belonging has revealed an interesting connection with the difference in suicide rates between men and women....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Act Policy Vindicated by Sensible Sentencing Data
    ACT Leader Dr Jamie Whyte says the Sensible Sentencing Trust's just released analysis of 3 Strikes legislation "proves ACT was right to promote the policy and that it has made New Zealand a much safer country. The figures show beyond...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • “Robin Hood tax and other clever ways to help our kids”
    It’s time to talk about tax. Not just income tax but other kinds of tax too....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Cannabis Laws Breach Treaty – ALCP
    Cannabis prohibition is neo-colonial oppression resulting in the disproportionate imprisonment of Maori, the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party says....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • 2014 Variation Broadcasting Allocation Decision Released
    The Electoral Commission has released a variation decision on the amount of time and money allocated to political parties for the broadcasting of election programmes for the 2014 General Election....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • New Zealand Shoppers- Demand Blue Tick Accredited Products
    Following ongoing concerns surrounding the issue of animal welfare in farming, particularly in the layer and broiler chicken sectors, the RNZSPCA is now asking consumers to purchase only eggs, pork, turkey and chicken that have been Accredited by the Blue...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • EDS welcomes Labour’s Environment Policy
    The Environmental Defence Society has welcomed Labour’s Environment Policy which recognises that New Zealand cannot have a healthy economy without a healthy environment....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Candidate calls for an end to institutional racism
    29 AUGUST 2014 Tāmaki Makaurau candidate, Rangi McLean has spoken up in support of Irie Te Wehi-Takerei who was wrongfully accused of shoplifting at a Warehouse store in Manukau. "Over the last month, two different supermarkets have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Making tertiary education more accessible to Māori
    29 August 2014 The Māori Party launched its tertiary education policy today at Te Huinga Tauira o Te Mana Ākonga, the national hui for the Māori Teritary Students Association in Palmerston North. Te Tai Hauāuru candidate Chris McKenzie says the...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • NZ Sign Language programmes receives $11 million boost
    Deaf Aotearoa are thrilled with Education minister Hekia Parata’s announcement this week that $11 million in funding will go towards a range of New Zealand Sign Language initiatives, including First Signs – a programme that involves sign language...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Abortion violates the Human Rights of Fathers
    Fathers1Right to Life is concerned at the glaring imbalance that exists in law, in regard to the rights of men to defend the lives of the children they have fathered. Fatherhood commences at conception. Children in the womb, just like...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Hundreds to join march against male violence in Auckland CBD
    Hundreds of supporters are expected to join the 'Take Back the Night' march through central Auckland streets tomorrow night in solidarity with making the streets safe for women and the rainbow community to walk without fear of male violence....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Classic example of need for Conservative policy
    The Conservative Party Justice Spokesman, Garth McVicar believes the sentencing of killer Aaron McDonald is a classic example of why an overhaul of the parole and sentencing system is required.”...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Greens & Labour Politicising Bullying in Schools
    Family First NZ says that both the Greens and Labour are wanting to politicise and sexualise school children under the guise of bullying programmes rather than deal with the school bullying issue as it should be dealt with....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • Wellington National Is Not Our Future Rally 30/8/14
    Thousands of people will march and rally at National is not our Future events on Saturday. Auckland is the main rally centre with supportive actions in Wellington, Dunedin, Christchurch and Hamilton. In Wellington, marchers will assemble at Te Papa...
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • EPA grants marine consent for OMV exploration well
    The Environmental Protection Authority has granted a marine consent to OMV New Zealand Ltd for its Whio-1 exploration well in the Taranaki Basin....
    Scoop politics | 29-08
  • First anniversary of the horrific chemical attacks on Syria
    Members of the Syrian Community and friends are commemorating the first anniversary of the horrific chemical attacks on Syria, in Aotea Square on Saturday 30 August 2014, between 11-3 pm. The Assad regimes chemical attacks on al Ghouta were responsible...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Anniversary of the NZ Occupation of German Samoa
    Today, 29th August 2014, marks the 100 years centenary of the occupation of Samoa by New Zealand forces at the request of the British empire, ending the German rule of Samoa. It is also the starting point for the special...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Submissions sought on mosquito repellent
    The Environmental Protection Authority is calling for submissions on a portable mosquito repellent for use outdoors. The repellent consists of a strip impregnated with metofluthrin, a substance from the pyrethroid family....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Spot the difference – the leaders debate
    I watched the Leaders' debate last night and was struck by the fact that John Key accepted all of David Cunliffe's basic assumptions. For example, he did not say that the government should not tell farmers who they could sell...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Colin Craig’s tax figures do not add up and are dishonest
    “Colin Craig’s tax plan is to have two rates of income tax: 0% up to $20,000 and 25% above that. This will leave a $6.4 billion hole in the budget even before the new spending proposed by the Conservatives. The...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Dirty Politics Impacts National Party Support
    Media Release – For Immediate Release Dirty Politics Impacts National Party Support Support for National has dropped by 4.3% to 50.8%, the latest stuff.co.nz / Ipsos political poll shows....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Labour’s environment policy welcomed
    The independent conservation organisation Forest & Bird says that overall the Labour Party’s newly released environment policy would go a long way towards protecting New Zealand’s natural heritage....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • National: Not our Future Marches across New Zealand
    Three weeks before the election, action is being taken across the country voicing a rejection of the National Government's track record and direction. Rallies are being held in Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch and Dunedin to oppose National's...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Tune in to tonight’s debate from 7pm
    The countdown is on! You can watch the first leader’s debate for 2014 tonight, 7pm, on TV One ....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Gamblefree Day 1 September
    It's Gamblefree Day this Monday 1 September, the national awareness day for problem gambling in New Zealand. While traditionally celebrated on the first day of September, many events and activities are held both before and after this day to raise...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Success through captioning should be a given as a Right
    Success through captioning should be a given as a Right per the Convention on the Rights of People with Disabilities...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Alcohol Marketing Committee Questions Government’s Motives
    An Independent Expert Committee on Alcohol Advertising and Sponsorship (IECAAS) has been formed out of concern amongst alcohol and public health researchers about the government’s Ministerial Forum on Alcohol Advertising and Sponsorship (MFAAS)....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • How Much Higher Can Auckland Prices Go?
    National's plan to liberalise the use of Kiwisaver funds and its proposal to raise ts cheap "Welcome Home" loan thresholds to help buyers purchase a new home has been welcomed by home building companies but attacked as a "welfare scheme...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • OPC submission period extended
    We have extended the submission period for the modified reassessment of a bee control affecting five organophosphate and carbamate insecticides (APP202142)....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Vinay Deobhakta struck off roll of barristers and solicitors
    The New Zealand Lawyers and Conveyancers Disciplinary Tribunal has ordered former Tauranga lawyer Vinay Deobhakta to be struck off the roll of barristers and solicitors....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Major parties to front up for Climate Voter election debate
    New Zealand’s main political parties will take part in ‘The Great Climate Voter Debate’ on September 3....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Family violence… too big to be ignored
    As Annah Stretton gears up for her New Zealand Fashion Week show on Thursday she is utilizing her spotlight to help change the face of family violence in this country saying “the problem is far too big to ignore”....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Candidate’s SOS to northern Maori voters: Save our seats!
    (Extract from address by Rev Te Hira Paenga to Kura Hourua Maori Political Leaders hui, in Whangarei this evening)....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Mary O’Neill to Stand for the Alliance in Napier
    The Alliance Party has confirmed Mary O’Neill as the Alliance candidate in the Napier Electorate for the 2014 election....
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • TONIGHT [28/8/14]: The Great Political Comedy Debate
    It's a night for debating. You could stay home frowning at tonight's Leaders debate, or laugh it up with us at BATS!...
    Scoop politics | 28-08
  • Cunliffe against personal responsibility over billboards
    The accusation by David Cunliffe that the Conservative Party is subscribing to a surveillance society by protecting its billboards via the use of motion sensor cameras reveals an anti-personal responsibility position by the about-to-be-retired Leader...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Groundbreaking health and climate conference
    The World Health Organization (WHO) is holding its first conference on climate change and health at its headquarters in Geneva this week, with New Zealand health experts in attendance....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Te Tai Tokerau Party
    Last night at the Leadership Academy of Company A debate Clinton Dearlove announced the creation of a new political party supported by Whanau and Hapu....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Significant fallout from Dirty Politics allegations
    Dirty politics ... costing National up to 3.8% of its pre-publication support Large numbers of New Zealanders are aware of and talking about the issues raised as a result of the publication of Nicky Hager’s book, Dirty Politics, according to...
    Scoop politics | 27-08
  • Colin Craig is “deluded and dangerous” – Act
    “Colin Craig is proposing a radical transformation of our constitution. The Conservatives are proposing to overthrow of one hundred and fifty odd years of parliamentary democracy and replace it with binding referenda” said ACT Leader Dr Jamie Whyte....
    Scoop politics | 27-08
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