If, as you say, you care about the community, then you should be concerned about low wages and the damage they do to society. There are a lot of social costs to low wages, and ultimately paying people such low wages is economically inefficient. Just increasing productivity or getting more people into work is not going to fix low wages in itself. Because a business is there to maximise profit, it is not going to increase its workers’ wages unless it has to, regardless of how much its productivity increases.

“Also raising the minimum wage exacerbates this issue as it becomes more attractive to turf the hypothetical kid out to get $25K more in rather than $20K more in” – the whole point is that if Mum and Dad did not need to survive on poverty wages, their children wouldn’t have to work to help support the family. It’s not a question of “turfing out”, it’s a question of need. The minimum wage is a safety net, $12 an hour is not enought to raise a family.

Sure, there are always going to be people who are lazy and stupid
Has nothing to do with being lazy nor stupid; it has to do with the relative benefit that they are able to offer. I have a couple of people who are lazy (admittedly none who are stupid) who are worth more to me than some of my hard workers – because the fact is they are more productive in the 20-30 hours actual work they put in than some who put in 40-50.

I assume you own a SME. If you can afford to pay your lowest paid worker $60,000 then you can certainly afford to comply with employment laws and pay people the minimum wage. What’s your issue with current employment laws?
Ah – beautiful example of left thinking; this law doesn’t affect your self interest so why should you care? Just because you seem to only care about something that directly affects you doesn’t stop others caring about the wider community and consequences.

People don’t choose to work for the minimum wage, think of someone in Otara who has to leave school to support the family because Mum and Dad get such poor wages. It’s a cycle, not a choice.
Sorry this is an argument around the level at which a safety net is required – not at which a minimum wage should be set. Also raising the minimum wage exacerbates this issue as it becomes more attractive to turf the hypothetical kid out to get $25K more in rather than $20K more in. It makes the argument of delayed gratification for higher education even harder to make.
Unless of course you prefer a greater proportion of our young leaving school to “work at the meatworks”.

I don’t agree for good a reason. I said “If employers can profit from paying poverty wages they will”. Look at any fast food company and most international cleaning contractors in New Zealand and almost any international business trading in China (Nike, GAP etc.).

You said minimum wage increases lead to decreases in employment. This is not correct. As I’ve stated before the minimum wage has increased significantly in the past few years while unemployment has dropped significantly, most markedly in unemployment amongst Maori, Pacific Islanders and youth, the so-called “vulnerable” workers. You can get these statistics from the DOL or Statistics NZ.

People don’t choose to work for the minimum wage, think of someone in Otara who has to leave school to support the family because Mum and Dad get such poor wages. It’s a cycle, not a choice.

I assume you own a SME. If you can afford to pay your lowest paid worker $60,000 then you can certainly afford to comply with employment laws and pay people the minimum wage. What’s your issue with current employment laws?

Your last two responses make me think that you believe that people who “choose” to work in low paid jobs are not worthy of more. Sure, there are always going to be people who are lazy and stupid, some of them might work for the minimum wage but an equal if not greater number of them are wealthy.

While SMEs make up 96% of businesses, they only employ about 30% of employees, and the majority of SMEs do not employ anyone. I don’t see why there should be one law for SMEs and one law for any other employer. Thanks for providing my proof for me.

I don’t see why there should be one law for SMEs and one law for any other employer. I don’t see why there should either – however at least I’m recognizing that both exist before creating a slap down to both.

There is no evidence to show that minimum wage increases and increased workers’ protection in recent years have led to decreases in employment in SMEs or stifled SME growth. Is there any showing it hasn’t?? The only research I have seen on minimum wages is that in a less than full employment scenario it impacts most heavily on the most vulnerable. Although I can’t quote from my own business as the lowest paid worker gets > $60,000 p.a. I can quote from my wifes where the impact wouldn’t show in reduced employment – because students are already classified as fully employed…

Nobody ‘chooses’ to be paid the minimum wage Jeez – I thought it was the right’s job to be out of touch? How long since you went to school and watched people explicitly choosing to leave and take up minimum wage careers?

there is no justice in implying they deserve the poor wage they are being paid. There is no justice in implying that just because they are working that they deserve more…

While SMEs make up 96% of businesses, they only employ about 30% of employees, and the majority of SMEs do not employ anyone. I don’t see why there should be one law for SMEs and one law for any other employer.

There is no evidence to show that minimum wage increases and increased workers’ protection in recent years have led to decreases in employment in SMEs or stifled SME growth.

Nobody ‘chooses’ to be paid the minimum wage, you’re always going to have someone who needs to do those jobs and there is no justice in implying they deserve the poor wage they are being paid.

I don’t see how minimum wage increases benefit the “ruling elite” (whoever they may be) or the Labour Party.

Yes, it is frequently a hallmark of large business that they pin down wages. It is also a hallmark that being employed within one of those types of industries is a poverty trap for those who ‘choose’ it. One of the issues you have in battling this with increases in minimum wage levels is a decrease in the employment within the SME industry, constraints of growth in SME’s, encouragement of increased employment in low skill areas, etc.

All of which vastly benefit the Labour party and the “ruling elite” but do nothing to actually assist the eradication of a lower class.

Even if wages grow under favourable economic conditions this does not automatically mean an increased wage for those at the bottom. For example, for the hundreds of thousands of workers who work within $1 of the minimum wage the recent minimum wage increases have been the biggest pay increases they’ve seen in 20-odd years (cleaning industry, hotel industry etc.).

Even in the past 5 or so years, when wage levels were rising in NZ in general, the wages for people on close to the minimum wage were not, except when the minimum wage was increased. If employers can profit from paying poverty wages they will.

It’s irritating when right wingers say “Increases in the minimum wage will lead to unemployment!” but at the same time they are the most vocal opponents of the unemployment benefit.

The minimum wage is still far too low. It should be set at 66% of the average wage. This is the OECD norm (as employers like to argue so much about OECD norms when talking abour probationary periods).

For minimum wages, I never said “tied” to anything (yet another case of those on the left confusing correlation and cause-and-effect, but I digress)
I was pointing out that the legal rise in minimum wage has predominantly followed on from existing economic conditions already having done the work of pushing overall wages up. Whether you choose to call this an ideological or economic argument is largely irrelevant.

Although I have to say that you are slipping a bit as the resident attack dog.

http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?mid=697941

Anyway, time to throw some snarlers on the barbie. And I can assure everyone that Mickey won’t be seeing me today.