What I heard was that they were allowed to start again to feed themselves, but then they weren’t allowed to sell the skins so they couldn’t pay for fuel etc that had to be imported.

Just as well, that particular cause put some celebrities in a very bad light. It’s not a good look “protecting” a species whos numbers are increasing at the expense of driving the locals to drink.

But this one must be different.

Maybe these women (and their partners) belong to one of those weird religions that believes contraception to be evil. Having an abortion is a lot easier to hide from your partner than taking the pill.

Um, I doubt if they adhere to what their church would say about contraception that they would think having an abortion is OK.

Steve,

Sorry for what has been a partial threadjack, but I do find the outrage at seal culling and apparent acceptance of abortion (not ascribing that sentiment to you) to be totally inconsistent.

Well I have no intention of getting into a drawn about debate about this, because I sense it would be pointless, but in my opinion nothing miraculous happens.

Just biology. In my opinion 20 wk fetus is not a person, and it certainly isn’t a “baby”. (Important words include viabilty and sentience).

Your statement that the only development a fetus goes through is “growth” is so bizzare that I suspect you don’t believe it yourself. I mean for a start even a very developed fetus gets nourishment through a cord attached to a woman, and it can’t breathe air. That’s pretty different from a baby.

Either that or you believe that the numerous profound developments (like the growth of a brain) that a fetus goes through are far less important than some indefinable essence of personhood,(a soul if you like), that remains constant and is implanted at conception. If that’s the case, fine. But surely you must realise that that is opinion, and that reasonable folk can differ. If they do differ, and I assure you they do, why should your opinion be the deciding one, over the woman concerned. Your opinion counts when it’s your body.

In 2005, 1,236 women were having their third abortion, 383 their fourth, 101 their fifth, 28 their sixth and 10 their seventh. THIS IS A DISGRACE.

Well I for one would want some more information before passing judgement. Though I’m not entitled to that information because it is none of my fucking business. Maybe these women (and their partners) belong to one of those weird religions that believes contraception to be evil. Having an abortion is a lot easier to hide from your partner than taking the pill.

Or maybe you are right and they are just ‘disgraceful’.

Or maybe a bit of both, they belong to a disgraceful religion that believes contraception is evil and thinks they should be forced to get pregnant if they can’t keep their damn legs shut.

Or maybe something else entirely.

We don’t know and we are talking about people here Scribe, people making very personal decisions. Maybe some people you even know. Sorry to get moralistic, but making rash judgements about people without the facts is a bit disgraceful. IMHO

Like I said I’m not interested in getting into a drawn out debate. The presuppositions aren’t shared and aren’t particularly malleable, so it only ever turns into a shouting match.

I will however give some links, that if you want to read them, may give you a broader idea about what pro choice people think about prolife arguments and why they don’t think criminalising abortion is a good idea.

This is about some stats around abortion rates, womens health and abortion law.

http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2007/10/11/index.html

This one talks about some common prolife arguments and wonders about consistency.

http://lefarkins.blogspot.com/2005/09/gop-fetuses-are-rights-bearing.html

At the end of the day scribe, if you think it’s murder, don’t have an abortion.

http://www.therant.us/staff/garnica/2008/01282008.htm

Maybe some of the abortion supporters on this blog could try answering this question: What miraculously happens to turn a “foetus” into a baby?

Once they realise the answer is “it grows”, maybe the culture of death will start subsiding.

Just not in practice?

Cool. I’m going to adopt this: I am sober in principle. I am very good at sexual intercourse in principle.

Humans don’t feel much in common with the non-sentient lump of cells which is a 20 week old fetus. Which is probably why many people are comfortable with the idea.

Check this out and tell me if this 20-week-old “foetus” has much in common with you or I. Or if it looks like a “non-sentient lump of cells”: http://www.birth.com.au/Info.asp?class=6731&page=5#

That’s the stuff the abortionists don’t show women and girls before they choose to abort their son or daughter.

Steve,

to be fair abortion is decreasing

The numbers have fluctuated a little bit in recent years, but NZ has the second-highest rate of abortions in the OECD. Any minor decrease in the raw number of abortions is also attributable to the over-the-counter availability of the morning-after pill, which I’m sure you’ll think is fine, but I oppose. That’s an argument for another day.

And if anyone wonder if abortion is simply back-up contraception, ponders these numbers. In 2005, 1,236 women were having their third abortion, 383 their fourth, 101 their fifth, 28 their sixth and 10 their seventh. THIS IS A DISGRACE.

I’m a vegetarian in principal, but don’t really care that insects are shredded by harvesting machines whilst they collect the grain I eat. I guess my circle of moral concern just doesn’t go that far.

I think the answer to Brett is that there is no Endangered Lizard cull and if there was it would also need to be justified, otherwise it would be opposed just like the whale hunt and the seal cull.

Greenpeace can’t save everything – do you think they should give up? If they are going to put a lot of effort into something it’s worth them doing it in an area that will garner public attention, support, and money. Lastly – give me an example equivalent to any Government authorising and supporting the imhumane slaughter of near a million infant (or otherwise) animals. Unlikely…

P.s. based on what you said i would have though you were more carnivore than omnivore of vegetarian…!

You may say, well “the tax payer shouldn’t have to fork out for the abortions” – but that’s a whole other debate..

Also, maybe there’s a case to made for promoting feminism there as well. Our rape stats are truly horrifying – around 20% of NZ women have been raped (I have several friends who work for rape crisis). Their analysis (which I agree with) is that our culture encourages passivity in women, and misogyny in men, resulting in a culture which facilitates rape. Similarly, if women were less passive, and men were more respectful of women, there would be less of an STD problem (women would be more likely to assert their desire to use protection when the man doesn’t want to). Anyway, I’m sure there’s much more to it than this as well.