Written By: - Date published: 7:17 am, October 29th, 2008 - 76 comments
Categories: crime, national -
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The Nats’ private prison scheme just gets worse. As No Right Turn points out prisons would be used to do contract work and prisoners would be forced to be used as cheap labour or lose their parole.
Aside from the fact this would constitute slave labour it would also allow prison companies to undercut other contractors and in doing so depress the labour market and ensure higher unemployment.
Of course one of the main drivers of crime is unemployment so one could argue National has developed the perfect self-sustaining system in which nobody loses.
Well, except for prisoners, workers, small firms and the community at large.
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“And if you’re going to resort to cutnpaste from the internets, don’t you think you should provide some attribution?”
Awww you use google too. and NO as I’m not pretrending to be walking dictionary like you.
I agree with Sprout as parole not a given right also work for freedom is a no no. (you’ll might agree with that, no fence sitting!!). Work for freedom? Aghh where is the punishment in that??? Work for parole??? aghhhhh Foresnic psychology,anyone done that? Think you would like my wife’s book Lew and would reference that (wikipedia gets an F if reference at tertiary level ah Lew?)
ev you are trying to reason with people who cant reason.
the only thing they can do is count and that is a substitute for thinking and feeling as well
they are the same types that externally reference themselves. i.e. I have a big car therefore i have a big dick
you know what I mean
they want to destroy the world just to make sure that they did it
all in all they are a manifestation of the psychopathology of industrial capitalism and they expect everyone else to fall into line while they chew up the world and its resources to make thmeselves feel something
Something needs to be said/moderated about those who try to equate National to Nazis.
Just wondering coge, have you ever made a similar comment at Kiwiblog about those that equate Labour to Nazis? If not, are you planning to?
Privatise prisons…
…and then Crime really DOES pay.
“Just wondering coge, have you ever made a similar comment at Kiwiblog about those that equate Labour to Nazis? If not, are you planning to?”
and communist filthy bastards too, don’t forget that
Coge,
Forcing people who have no choice and who are in a vulnerable position (Whether of their own making or because they just happened to like smoking a joint instead of getting drunk or God forbid some young kid caught in the art of creating street art as has been suggested) to do forced labour is exactly what happened to people in concentration camps.
There is only a difference in the degree of abuse but not the basic system which is forcing people to work for someone else’s profit while captivated.
Bush’s grand daddy made lots of money of the forced labour in Auschwitz.
In fact Auschwitz was build were it was, to supply the steelworks over there with huge amounts of slave labour and I’m sure the Bush family has shares in the privatised US system thinking there is nothing inherently wrong with making money out of other people’s misery.
The prison camps were not build for the extermination of the Jews alone initially but to supply the German Industry with slave labour. If you were gay you became a slave, if you were a gypsy you became a slave, if you performed a minor infraction you became a slave, if you were a Jew you became a slave. It wasn’t until later in the war that the Germans started to build gas chambers and began to mass murder the Jewish slave labourers in order to “solve the Jewish problem” once and for all. Hideous but true.
It was an insidious callous predatory system for profit. Just as privatising the prison system and forcing inmates to perform forced labour for the profit of a third party is.
As a human being it is repugnant to me (precisely because I have lived through the aftermath of WWII and seen what it does to people to be dehumanised) to even begin to see a prison system as a source of profit.
If as a nation we have to isolate individuals because their actions are detrimental to our society than that should be done with the greatest of wisdom, not with dollar signs in someone’s eyes.
It is a recipe for abuse and dehumanising our fellow human beings. I may not like what some of them have done but I refuse to allow anybody to be transformed into an imprisoned cash cow.
And if because I do so by pointing out that only difference with the German slave labour system is the degree of dehumanisation I insult some people who think that it’s a great idea, well,so be it.
To even propose such a system is incredibly insulting to me as what is called in Europe; a second generation war victim. (having to deal with traumatised parents who grew up in hunger winters and got bombed of the road by Germans, had to watch parents grieving after Jewish friends committed suicide because they could not cope with their slave labour memories, and who had a friend who had to pull the plug out of the kitchen sink because his mother couldn’t. Apparently that is the sound a decapitated body makes as it dies. you get my drift?)
Once you start seeing powerless people, even criminals, as cash cows you are on a very slippery slope.
Randal,
Yeah I know.
Thank you travellerev, I totally agree with that (now do you see Lew)
Ok, so if you don’t want to rehabilitate people, because it demeans them. You want to lock them up just to protect society. Doesn’t that imply MUCH longer sentences?
The logic on this thread seems … truncated.
And my conclusion on the National:Nazi thing is this – many of The Standard authors want exactly that comparison, and dogwhistle it up whenever they can. The moderation policy then supports it. It’s difficult to come to any other conclusion based on the facts. And the people who do it are really keen to dictate government policy! Eewck. I hope they never closer to parliament than the Backbencher.
And yes, I do criticize people on Kiwiblog for egregious behaviour.
[Tane: Milo, don't be silly. I don't want my fellow lefties going down dead-ends like accusing National of being Nazis, not when there are so many other valid reasons to attack them and it can so easily backfire. You'll notice I don't ban people for calling us communists either, unless it gets too repetitive or abusive.
Having said that, you can't help people being slightly amused at the unfortunate irony of National's policy literally being 'Arbeit Macht Frei', even if the comparison is somewhat distasteful.]
Lampie, Lew was agreeing with you. I gather you missed that.
The comments on the right are so fractured and disjointed that it seems they need to be fed lines.
On the one hand, prisons are these wonderful cruisy places that crims actually want to go to, yet they don’t mind committing crime because there’s parole and they’ll get a short sentence. Hang on, doesn’t that mean we should increase parole, because they don’t want to be kicked out of prison? Shit, can’t do that, because then they’ll commit more crime to get sent back, even if only for a short period.
So shouldn’t we tie them up and flog ‘em and make them break rocks because they are evil and must be crushed? Well that won’t work, because we have to let them out, eventually, and they won’t be happy if that happens…even though in between the tying up and forced labour there is playstation and warm floor, so they will want to go back anyway. Hmm, there are a few flaws in the Conservative Collective.
Go ask kiwiblog what you should say here. In the mean time, here’s some reality: people don’t want to go to prison. It’s not actually that nice. The playstations are probably for the white collar crims who only screw over entire communities, instead of individual families.
Forced labour (because contrary to the bollocks about nice prisons, people still want parole) won’t help – if you change parole requirements to fulfilling a contract demand for humiliating virtual slave labour, as opposed to making it based upon good behaviour, you’re going to have some rather pissed off people getting out of prisons. The kind of work that would make someone appreciate the value of work isn’t the stuff we’re talking about here, clearly.
Milo, your logic is flawed because you equate rehabilitation with forced labour. Probably a poor starting point.
milo: See here for the latest in a long line of my calling people out for using terms like this without regard for proper historical context.
The case in this thread is somewhat different since that’s actually the policy, though I still don’t think it’s an especially good comparison to make, or think that anyone in their right mind would actually consider the Nats the same as the Nazis.
L
Cheers Tane.
I am not one to invoke Godwins but as you say, considering the phrase fit’s National’s policy exactly, you can’t really ignore the comparison.
I would be much happier if National didn’t keep devising policies that made for such obvious and stark parallels.
Lampie: As the grandson of Dutch emigrants who fled Europe after the war because of the same ghosts Ev describes (on one side), I entirely agree with her sentiments regarding forced labour. I’m not sure how you figure that everything I say is necessarily opposed to everything you (or Ev) says.
L
I find “Arbeit Macht Frei” massively distasteful, in fact i find the whole policy repulsive, written in German or English.
KITNO
Have you actually read the policy – in fact has anyone here actually read the policy ?
I’ve scanned it and there seems to be a lot of worthwhile ideas, but there seems to be that you have taken offence to “Amend the Parole Act to ensure that prisoners who are able to work but refuse to work are not eligible for parole. ”
And linked it to some kind of slave labour which is a quite bizarre link to make as that would imply our police and judicial system were complicit in some kind of totalitarian state – as Rex said before and I agree with wholeheartedly
‘ I’m open to anything that might provide prisoners with reasonable conditions while also helping genuinely rehabilitate them and reduce reoffending – and which are effective in containing and ensuring the continued detention of the small percentage of people beyond rehabilitation.’
As such I have no real issue with this policy much as I have no issues with increasing inmates learning based skills and giving inmates the chance to gain trades qualifications and improve their literacy and numeracy. I also strongly support more assistance for alcohol and drug education and treatment for inmates and for those with mental health problems.
As a complete change of tack from a commenter on Chris Trotters blog…
“I happen to believe that no party has all the answers and no party has none of the answers to any issue.
My hope for MMP had been that the major groupings would manage the country with regard to the economy, infrastructure etc and the whole parliament would have it’s voice listened to with regard to social engineering, with a conscience vote on all issues that affected the personal freedoms of the individual and family.
In essence what seems to have happened is that FFP still applies, because once a block of parties is set up the largest party in the group acts like they’ve got the mandate over the whole country and the minor parties are expected to toe the line.
I would have loved to see some good ‘crossing the floor’ on a lot of the bills passed this last Parliamentary session.
The adversarial system still seems well and truly entrenched, where to acknowledge another party has a good idea,[and heaven forbid actually support it] is seen as being a ‘traitor’ to the ’cause’.”
Very nice !
HS: This tendency will erode as MMP (as exercised both by electors and elected) matures. But yes, the system is still a Westminster ayes/noes dualism, and that won’t change just because of a new electoral system.
L
HS: What a pity the problem of the day can’t be identified,put up for debate, explored, consult then decide in non-partisan ways- a conscience vote if you like. But otherwise the plan gets buried with the Opposition hell-bent on blocking good ideas for political gain. What would have happened if the Protection of Children Act repeal S59, had been so treated? Would have passed with only the “We like to hit our kids Lovingly” left behind.
Perhaps Lew – but I can’t see it happening with the current parliamentarians.
From your perspective have you found it to be a very quiet election – there seems to be less in the mailbox on the TV and up around town than there has been previously – thought it might just be me but several of my colleagues have made the same observation as well.
Ianmac
Agreed. It’s a major problem with our parliament in its present form where not only does the opposition of the day block ideas for political gain the governments of the day tend to both drive things through for political gain and ignore ideas from opposition parties.
People and political parties are so locked into their ideologies and busy taking an oppositional view to the other side that things often move very slowly or not at all.
HS – I think the “quiet election” you speak of can be directly attributed to the effects of the EFA. Where are the flyers in the mailbox from the minor parties (for example). I have had only 2 flyers so far – both National.
HS: Hell no, it’s completely on. It’s just happening at a much more subtle level.
The 2005 Labour v National campaign was like a WWE exhibition match, all glitz and glamour with bikini chicks and chairs getting thrown and everything. This campaign is being fought in deadly earnest, like a gloves-off no-holds-barred cage-fighting match. Just because the combatants spend most of their time locked together immobile on the mat or circling, waiting for an opening doesn’t mean it isn’t intense.
And then there’s the minor party battle, which holds just as much goodness.
L
well natoinal have floated this one knowing that it will never pass in parliament so they are getting a free hit.
“Lampie, Lew was agreeing with you. I gather you missed that”
Nah, I’m not disputing that at all MP, I’m sure he feels it is a crap policy like I do (I just love winding him up). I just can’t believe we (meaning all of us, well Nats mainly) actually even think of these stupid ideas that have been used in the past (to really really bad effect) as great new ideas (well not that new). Thought us Kiwis were intelligent buggers.
Randal got it right, it’s a mad mad world.
Lew – I am also the grandson of Dutch emigrants who fled after the war and I say use of the phrase is apt. There’s a lot of people with shared heritage here.
so is it all right to ask if garth mcvictim has shares in wackanhurt?
QtR: Which phrase? Arbeit macht frei? If you read above again you’ll see me defending its use.
L
Both of the two major and the majority of minor parties have pursued policies involving longer sentences for the worst crimes. This is something I support. I’m not talking about those people who swear, lie or litter, although petty, people still recognise them as being wrong. It is nature to know what is right and what is wrong. Labour’s sentencing laws have doubled minimum non-parole periods for the most serious crimes.
New Zealand has had a huge increase in violent domestic crime as reported by the police. In comparison to 1990′s, one domestic violent incident in five was reported and now we’re doing better than that and of course domestic violence is no worse than stranger violence. It is something that shouldn’t go unnoticed. Those worst repeat violent offenders, shouldn’t get parole.
Look ultimately the desire is to get those worst offenders off the streets. If you’re in a prison cell, you’re less likely to continue to commit these crimes. Building more prisons is beneficial, whoever becomes the next government will have to build new prisons I assure you which in progression will mean tougher laws.
I think this policy aims to get involved before the offending hits the streets. Also note that it recognises that not enough is being done to work with prisoners with regard to drug and alcohol rehabilitation.
I think this policy is straight forward enough to define the classifications of “worst repeat violent offenders” according to the types of crime that have previously been committed. For example if you’ve carried a crime/sentence of 5 years or more and do the same thing again, you fall into the category of no parole.
We simply have to keep the community safe, the fact of the matter is, is that the prison population is the end product of a more violent society.
AAron: On the face of it the general policy is good. The catch is how much of it is just what is already happening within the constraints of manpower? And Infrastructure?
I have just been reading general anthropology edited by franz boas and others.
it seems that criminality is statistically predictable in any population.
therefore it is a question that has no answer.
some people are guilty of using the subject to keep the population agitated and in a state of fear and confusion instead of propsing rational solutions
so we have declined into the politcis of hate and revenge
how very civilised
Aaron I have no problems with what you say but isn’t “putting the worst repeat violent offenders inside” closing the gate after the horse has bolted, the crime/injury has already happened. If our correction service is swelling now, all we we be doing is make it explode.
Rehablilitation is a lot cheaper than incarceration.
Also due to increased manpower and infrastructure costs by having more overflowing prisons, it would only push the case for National as a government to privatise the correction sevice. (Another secret agenda perhaps?)
I like your reasoning. Opinions are respected, which is what I like. You and I will have to agree to disagree.
randal: “I have just been reading general anthropology edited by franz boas and others.
it seems that criminality is statistically predictable in any population.”
Yes. This phenomenon is the manifestation of an effect like the one Durkheim described when talking of the perfect cloister:
“Imagine a society of saints, a perfect cloister of exemplary individuals. Crimes or deviance, properly so-called, will there be unknown; but faults, which appear venial to the layman, will there create the same scandal that the ordinary offense does in ordinary consciousnesses. If then, this society has the power to judge and punish, it will define these acts as criminal (or deviant) and will treat them as such.”
But this rather ignores the question at hand, which is not `what to do with the minor transgressions’ but `what to do with the serious crimes that demonstrate that this is not a perfect cloister?’
L
Lew – Yeah I know, I was agreeing with you.
Knowing my grandparents who lived through nazi occupation and their relavtives who lived through it too and seeing the commenters like you and Eve here its interesting to note that none of them would ever vote National and I’m making no comparisons there just an observation.