Written By: - Date published: 12:45 pm, April 29th, 2008 - 93 comments
Categories: child discipline, election 2008, families -
Tags: child discipline, dpf, election 2008, families, referendum, s59
Family First’s petition for a referendum on reversing the amendment to s59 of the Crimes Act that removed the defence of reasonable force for assault on a child (try saying that three times fast) has failed to get enough signatures. It needed 280,275 signatures and seemed to have enough but the Office of the Clerk found many of them were multiple or fake names.
Now, the pro-beaters have 2 months to find the 15,000 extra signatures they need to force a referendum. On the surface, that shouldn’t be hard. Family First has the money to get people out to collect names and polling data from David Farrar’s company Curia to help targeting groups. But it remains to be seen whether they will be able to get so many more names in time, they were already scrapping the barrel to get the names they have and some of the energy must be lost from their campaign after this failure.
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Scoopit!
“Physically injuring children was never legal, and you know it. The law was very clear in this regard.”
The question is – is causing physical pain, even if not visible injury, to someone smaller and more defenseless than yourself ever actually ok? As Jum points out – how do we ever determine what exactly counts as acceptable? Obviously there have been significant problems in doing so in the legal system given what Robinsod has pointed out above. The safest thing is to just draw the line at physical contact intended to cause pain.
I believe it’s the bible that says a man may use the rule of thumb to determine the thickness of the rod that he uses to beat his wife and there’s no way I’d want to go back to that, or legalised rape within marriage, or the “it’s just a domestic” argument. Activism followed by legislative changes and changes to police culture have made it completely unacceptable for adults within a family to hit each other. Why children shouldn’t enjoy the same protection is a mystery to me.
“This situation happened reasonably often”
Yes RS there were kids getting beaten with riding crops all over NZ until Aunty Sue and uncle Helen came to the rescue.
Lyn, I agree. In years to come this episode in NZ history will be seen in the same light as we now view the outlawing of rape within marriage, the homosexual law reform and just about any other progressive social legislation you can name – aggressively opposed by the creepy-with-agendas crowd, with everyone else looking back and wondering how it could have ever been a serious question.
Felix – I certainly agree with the sentiment but (at the risk of showing a misreading of your comment) I think that these law changes are not just opposed by the “creepy-with-agendas crowd” – the surrounding debates always involve a significant chunk of the community and that’s why they’re so important – they really mark a shift in social thinking, so that after the fact posterity then has the luxury of thinking “how could that ever have been a serious question”. The Labour government has given us a number of really important pieces of progressive legislation and I reckon it’s what they’ll be remembered for most.
Rob:
“Dean – a woman in Timaru beat her child with a riding crop. She was charged and put before a jury and plead section 59. She escaped conviction based on this defense. This situation happened reasonably often. I just don’t get why you would be against repealing a law that allowed this.”
A guy in Christchurch got convicted of child rape and many years later most reasonable people see that as a miscarriage of justice.
It doesn’t mean that the law needed tightening in the first place, but good on you for pretending that a few isolated incidents mean that we have to have an overreaction to correct it.
“The question is – is causing physical pain, even if not visible injury, to someone smaller and more defenseless than yourself ever actually ok? As Jum points out – how do we ever determine what exactly counts as acceptable? Obviously there have been significant problems in doing so in the legal system given what Robinsod has pointed out above. The safest thing is to just draw the line at physical contact intended to cause pain.”
Sorry, but if you’re having problems comparing a light tap to a child compared to a savage, brutal beating – which you’ll notice haven’t stopped since the passing of the law – then you’re in need of more help than the people who wanted the law passed in the first place.
It’s called common sense. You know, like the kind Annette King would like to espouse.
“I believe it’s the bible that says a man may use the rule of thumb to determine the thickness of the rod that he uses to beat his wife and there’s no way I’d want to go back to that, or legalised rape within marriage, or the “it’s just a domestic’ argument. Activism followed by legislative changes and changes to police culture have made it completely unacceptable for adults within a family to hit each other. Why children shouldn’t enjoy the same protection is a mystery to me.”
Sorry, but arguing with anything in the Bible is just utter BS. Argue with the contents of the Koran and what to do with homosexuals next time if you like; it makes just as much sense.
Your selective moral equivalencies are, quite simply, stunning.
What a surprise – people who wish to be child beaters lying.
Many were false names?? Hahahahaha dont make me laugh. Family First’s petition? Hahaha again. It is not Family First’s petition. Get basic facts right.
I know how many were illegible, how many were duplicates and how many were triplicates in the sample.It needed 285,027 signatures ( your number was incorrect.)
If you want to see the facts on this this is the only place to go to date.
I heard on the radio that they presented about 304k signatures. Now they need to get about 15k more. So about 35k or thereabouts must have been invalid. Over 10% is quite high.
Ancient Geek
According to the petitinors, they handed in 324,511 signatures. The sample was 1/11th – so 29,501 signatures were checked.
Dean – my point is simply that there should be a clear line drawn in the law. Otherwise its possible to get into situations where the law is interpreted in such a way that a riding crop beating is ruled essentially equivalent to a light tap. This is not about commonsense. If it was we wouldn’t need the law in the first place, since commonsense dictates that it’s not acceptable to hit children with a riding crop but there are still instances, however isolated, where this *is* ruled acceptable.
If you read my comment with a little more consideration you’ll realise that my mention of the bible’s rod is really an allusion to the fact that setting parametres on violence is essentially impossible and that interpretation thereof is a bitch. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “selective moral equivalencies” since the mention of the bible was a rhetorical device, however sadly this failed to register with you. Basically I think it’s shit that some humans were legally entitled to beat and enact other kinds of violence on other humans within the confines of the family. Socially and in law it has become unacceptable for men to do this to women, and now, with s59 it is defined as unacceptable for adults to do this to children. And these are changes I agree with. Call the mention of the bible a macguffin if it eases your mind. Really, I wasn’t being that deep.
Great to see that callous and selfish kiwi politicians are doing NOTHING to address rampant CHILD ABUSE and INFANTICIDE !!!!
What a disgraceful Nation run by heartless and cruel aliens!!!!
this country went down the drain after national brought in policies for people to self regulate along with post modern scepticism in the schools and what we have now is the result of 9 years of people doing what the damm hell they liked…ideas have consequences and now it is almost impossible to impose any sort of regulatory laws because of the howls from the rugged individuals protecting their freedoms…get it right spanner. you cant have it both ways.
“pro-beaters”. ha ha you bunch of idiots.
The state is the biggest “beater” of them all. The only way they get compliance with laws is through threat of physical action/internment. Same thing. Grow up.
vto. yes, the State, controlled by people that we elect, has the power to enforce the rules our elected officials set. Really insightful.
spanner. Are you Peter Burns, Republican Party candidate for Christchurch Central and known as dad4justice? Becuase D4J is banned.
whats your point mr pierson?
Good call vto – since we need police to maintain law and order, I might go beat the crap out of a few kids. Any other witty remarks to contribute?
(cap – syria wholesale – not if al-Assad has anything to do with it!)
Ummm. I have a look later. Sure looks like him.
I stored his IP ranges before removing them from moderation, but he may have picked up another link.
spanner is almost certainly Absolute Power, who has annoyed me previously. That was on a quick scan on IP’s, and it would not surprise me if he is a couple of other people as well.
I’ll run a check later. I’m putting all of the current suspects into moderation. While I check it out.
Sorry to anyone who gets caught there, but d4j is a real pain.
Dave: I stand corrected, I dropped 20k should have been 324k presented. So that is an estimate based on a sample drawn from the petition.
I read your link, and then went on to the NoRightTurn (your link to there is broken).
Looks like a valid technique. Using the 99% confidence level seems reasonable as well. After all you’d hate to get to the presenting the petition and then failing on a full count.
Matthew Pilott you are an idiot. Why do you keep referring to “beating”? What a waste of space your post is.
Right-o vto, you’ve yet to make something approaching a useful or comprehensible (let alone intelligent) point, but keep it up if you will.
If it helps you, feel free so substitute “beat” with “lovingly smack” in my last post, is that better?
yes it is better mr pilott.
But better still, you fullas on the so-called ‘left’ keep things up. The public clearly think this labour govt is doing the right thing on many fronts – ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[lprent: this one definitely looks like d4j as well - on file for later consideration]
Well as usual, I dwell on my posts post-postage and regret the manner in which I lay out my ideas. Apologies for the roughness and rudeness to individual folk. I will try to keep it more seemly in future.
I am not d4j btw.
do you guys get off on hitting your kids? Is you willingness to hit your kids with jug cords and the like compensating for the lack of quality sex in your life?
no millsy it is because of a general weakness in ego strength and compensating for it by beating people more helpless than themselves
why are socialist nanny control freaks so obsessed with taking over parenting and arrogating to themselves the right to attack families and decent parents? i surmise it is because they are disturbed individuals with no idea of boundaries, self-control, or healthy family life. so they are engaged in a mass psychological transference of their own problems onto normal kiwis. the lunatics are running the asylum!
do you think undermining parental authority is good for the future of nz? are you so demented that you cannot admit children need boundaries and occasionally forced to learn things anout life (not running away, not killing their sister, not destroying property) for their own wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around them?
no you’d rather wreck a whole generation than give up your self-indulgent idealistic spoilt temper tantrums against families that recognise that children are children, and want to inculcate virtue and self-restraint. bradford and her venomous hordes of leftist outrage-a-trons are acting like bossy brats. god help us
Lyn – fyi this is my first comment on this thread and I find it tragic for 180 000 of our children living in poverty. I bet none of those sad and vulnerable kiwi children would be the son’s and daughter’s of politicians.
Lyn – fyi -yesterday ( my birthday) I was accused by anonymous camphylobacter keyboard creeps of murdering the Ashburton school girl Kirsty Bentley.
What has New Zealand become?
Lyn – fyi this is my first comment on this thread and I find it tragic for 180 000 of our children living in poverty.
Dad, I agree. Child poverty reached terrible levels under the National government of the 1990s, so that “New Zealand came third-worst in the developed world in a Unicef survey of child poverty around the year 2000″.
Fortunately it has been slowly decreasing since.
I was accused by anonymous camphylobacter keyboard creeps
I’m very sorry to hear it. In what blog / place did that happen?
What has New Zealand become?
NZ has become and will become exactly what we make it.
“I’m very sorry to hear it. In what blog / place did that happen?”
My blog r0b. There is no doubt a sleeper cell from the insane extreme left who would like me off blogosphere permanently.
There is no doubt a sleeper cell from the insane extreme left who would like me off blogosphere permanently.
I have no sympathy for aggressive extremists from either end of the political spectrum dad.
Child poverty reached terrible levels under the National government of the 1990s, so that ?New Zealand came third-worst in the developed world in a Unicef survey of child poverty around the year 2000?.
Michael Cullen said it so it must be true.
On a less cynical note while both sides berate each other it would be worthwhile having some useful measurements to detremine which kids are really missing out on education, going to school hungry and are at risk. The rather simplistic measures applied by the recent NZ report (I think it was looking at the percentage of children who lived in homes on 50% or less of the average wage) and probably similar reports from UNICEF while interesting and fodder for the politicians aren’t really getting to the crux of the matter.
new zealand has become a nation of infantilised adults who think it is more important to have big bore cars and hardly davisions and trips to america to visit route 66 than it is to have social cohesion and harmony which they think they can obtain solely by coercing their children
Michael Cullen said it so it must be true.
Ahh, Unicef said it HS, not Cullen. There’s no point in trying to deny the legacy of the economic policies of the 90s.
it would be worthwhile having some useful measurements to detremine
I agree. I’m not an expert in this area and don’t have time to look into it now, but perhaps someone with relevant expertise will comment.