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The Standard

“Conservation” Minister

Written By: - Date published: 8:40 am, December 3rd, 2011 - 103 comments
Categories: climate change, Conservation, Mining, national - Tags: , , ,

Forest and Bird is pressing strongly on the issue that may soon turn in to Mining March II.  From The Herald yesterday:

Minister gave word on coalmine, say lobbyists

Pressure is mounting on Conservation Minister Kate Wilkinson for allegedly breaking her word that the public would get a say on development of a huge open-cast coal mine.

Ms Wilkinson initially gave an undertaking to consult the public on significant mining applications in July last year when stiff public opposition forced her and Energy and Resources Minister Gerry Brownlee to backtrack on plans to open up Schedule Four conservation land to mining.

Environmental advocacy group Forest & Bird says she also this year gave a specific undertaking that the public would be consulted over Australian company Bathurst Resources’ application for access for an open- cast mine on conservation land at Denniston Plateau north of Westport. But this week she sent Forest & Bird a letter saying that would not happen. …

“Thousands of New Zealanders marched down Queen St because they were concerned about mining on conservation land and we believed the Government had taken on the message that the public wanted conservation land to be protected from mining. “We think it’s disappointing for all New Zealanders who marched to have this decision made just days after the election.” But through a spokesman, Ms Wilkinson denied making that undertaking to Forest & Bird. …

“It would be the second largest open-cast mine in the country and that’s just stage one. They have made no secret about the fact that their intention is to expand from that first stage into an operation that takes over pretty much the entirety of the Denniston Plateau and at that point it’s without doubt New Zealand’s largest coalmine.”

Now correct me if I’m wrong here, but isn’t it the job of a “Conservation” Minister to, you know, conserve? Instead of leading the mining charge? Ramping up a new and bigger than ever coalmine is a conservation crime. And that’s just here in NZ, never mind the sheer stupidity of mining coal that so significantly fuels carbon emissions. Anyone up for another march?

103 comments on ““Conservation” Minister”

  1. anne 1

    Kate Wilkinson is a ‘yes,your honor’ to key and his crew,so she is following ‘dear leader’
    I agree the only thing that nz’ers can do now with the consevartion land is to ‘march’ also
    the deep sea drilling that key and co have signed up to,undercover of course,that also must be
    protested by a ‘march’
    There is no other way,key and the national party consider that the land of the long white cloud
    is theirs to pilfer and pillage,also protests against asset sales must happen also.
    48% does not say,go ahead,do what you like!
    The election may be all but over,but the fight is just beginning if Key and his co-horts remain in control.

    • seeker 1.1

      Totally agree Anne. What about petitioning for a referendum? Is this an extra way to go to add to the swell of disapproval at this barbaric government’s actions against our land and precious assets? How does one set about this or are they already set up? Does anyone know?

  2. vto 2

    You should prepare for another march because there aint no doubt that these extremists will keep on mining and damming and dumping their shit in the rivers until it is all gone. And they all know that this term will be the last chance for a long long time, perhaps a lifetime or more, to get in.

  3. RedLogix 3

    Waiting one day until after the election to announce the Stockton plateau decision is sordid and vile. At one level I knew that I couldn’t expect any better from National; but to have this arrogant betrayal cynically shoved down my gob like this really fucks me off. Big time.

    While my interest in politics is probably for the most part fairly abstracted… when it comes to the Conservation estate I get visceral.

  4. Mark 4

    We, as caretakers of this country for future generations, cannot allow this government to destroy it. We need demonstrations in every town & city..

    • mik e 4.1

      Old lizard eyes Smith shifty as a lizards eyes no insult meant to poor old lizards Key is to scared to let him on TV because he looks like he behaves

    • anne 4.2

      The green party need to be heavily involved here and co-ordinate a march,something that they are brilliant at,the march in the photo of this column shows what a march should look like,a replica of that is needed,the petition as well,the people of nz should take their power back
      when attacks on our land and the people are imminent,key and co,pander to the
      money traders such as goldman sachs and this should be stopped,goldman sachs are heavily inoved in our assets sales,i suspect that the ‘partial sale’ idea was to soften up objection to it
      and is not the full story, once key is on a roll who knows what will be next.

    • Reality Bytes 4.3

      Hear hear. And they did take notice and change tack last time when Queen Street was swamped with all those concerned citizens. Even arrogant politicians take notice at those sort of numbers, including all those trying to get there but had transport difficulties or for whom it was impractical.

      It’s a great way to steer our government over serious issues outside of elections, and when our government is too arrogant to have referendums over things many of us are passionate about.

      If there were similar protests over Asset sales, or Deep sea drilling (etc) I recon National would back down pretty fast.

  5. seeker 5

    By the time I ( and countless others I imagine) get around to being able to visit special places like the Denniston Plateau, they won’t be there, if this pillaging and barbaric government gets it’s reckless way. They must be stopped.

  6. Janice 6

    These assets (both power co’s and conservation estate) were probably put up for collateral to borrow the money to give themselves and their rich mates’ tax cuts. So TINA.

  7. Craig Glen Eden 7

    Time to March and make last time look like small fry.

  8. Dr Terry Creagh 8

    The Greens really mean to fight this dread move. We all need to make our voices heard now. Nothing could make clearer the arrogance of this government. I have written to Kate Wilkinson with my very strong protest, but she appears to reply through “spokespersons”, I have thus far to hear from her in person. The next march (marches?) will want to be double the size of the last.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      this is a timely reminder to all Green members how incompatible National is with their values, despite protestations of being “Blue-Green”.

    • Reality Bytes 8.2

      Kate Wilkinson’s job description is to provide PR services for the Crown Mineral Estate. That’s all.

  9. randal 9

    fair is foul and foul is fair.
    these guys have no pricinciples and no idea about truth.
    they only there to line their own pockets so they can buy stuff and lord it over the rest and everything but everything must go intheir quest of re-making the wolrd to fit themselves.
    they are like pigs but no one ever cleans out the sty.

  10. Sanctuary 10

    Hey – we’ve got a defense minister when we are actively fighting as part of an imperialist occupation force in a landlocked country in central Asia, so what’s in a name?

  11. Nick C 11

    I dont know much about this particular case, but… http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/03/mining_under_labour.html

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      Put it this way, the main issue for me is that National made this and waited until after the election to release it. Cynical and manipulative.

      • Nick C 11.1.1

        Fair enough, although I would note she denies ever having made such a promise.

        GWH: Sure, but they also did approve mining operations. I have seen no evidence that the quantity or scale of new mining operations has actually increased with National in Government, it just seems like environmental groups have decided to make a bigger fuss.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 11.2

      Fancy that you just happened to find an authoritive source quoting Jerry Brownlee and highlighted on Farragoblog.
      The clincher is Farrars trademark ‘ Big Lie’
      That is an average of one permit every fortnight was issued under Labour for mining on conservation land
      When it was looked into, they found these ‘prospecting’ ( not mining) often involved Tourist operations which were at the level of fossicking in river beds

    • RedLogix 11.3

      So what Nick. No doubt if you go back far enough you can point out examples of anything done, under any govt, to suit your argument.

      But what happened in the past in never complete or sufficient justification for continuing to do the same in the future.

  12. Deuto 12

    Below is the link to the Forest and Bird petition to save the Denniston Plateau from open cast mining that Jackal posted in Open Mike on 30 November at 8.1 for those wanting to support it.

    http://www.forestandbird.org.nz/what-we-do/campaigns/save-the-denniston-plateauours-not-mine/save-the-denniston-plateau-online-petit

    Hope the link t works if not, I will try reposting it.

  13. mac1 13

    I sometimes think that there are some fundamentalists in Government who believe in the End Times or who are influenced by those who secretly believe in them. Like some Secretary for the Environment in the USA under President Reagan who wanted to plunder the National Parks there since the End of the World was Nigh, (in the next twenty years he said then, so he must be feeling just a wee bit foolish right now- or dead), and like the local Libertarian candidate during the election who at a meeting went on about man’s biblical right to have dominion over the earth, including the right to …. yep you guessed it….. mine, mill and otherwise ‘manage’ the earth’s resources.

    There is the same self-serving thinking in the case of End-timers who want the world to end in their life-time for obscure psychological reasons, and in those who say that we must mine, mill and irrigate farms to the detriment of our lives, landscapes, forests, rivers and waterways.

    The times demand it, they say. Jobs, they cry. It’s going out to sea and is being wasted, they chorus.

    When all behind it is greed, pathology and power. If the mines, forests, rivers and waterways were all owned by the people then private business wouldn’t be so profit and greed driven, would they? But hang on, don’t we own them already?

    We, the people, have to have our say in this.

    • Afewknowthetruth 13.1

      mac 1

      Nice rant. I’ve often wondered the same, i.e. whether we are governed by ‘reptiles’ who want to see the world destroyed in their own lifetimes.

      I now conclude what we are talking about is the fundamental nature of evil. We are governed by those who are quite content to see the world destroyed in order that they can have more money, more power, more worldly possessions etc. Their minds have been taken over by some kind of evil.

      What is really interesting is that so much of what we are witnessing in modern societies does correspond with ‘end times’. i.e. materialism, selfishness, greed, the pursuit of extreme hedonism etc.

      • mike 13.1.1

        “I now conclude what we are talking about is the fundamental nature of evil. We are governed by those who are quite content to see the world destroyed in order that they can have more money, more power, more worldly possessions etc. Their minds have been taken over by some kind of evil.”

        I’m sure for many it’s purely a case of “power corrupts”, but what I want to get across is that psychopaths are highly skilled at climbing in politics and the corporate world. I honestly believe that this peice of information is a piece of the puzzle that is not properly understood, or is underestimated. You don’t need David Icke’s lizards to explain why certain politicians and extremely rich people are gleefully butt-f*cking the planet, you just need to understand that psychopaths are lying manipulators of an order people do not appreciate who are pathologically attracted to malevolent power over others. I see certain things being broadly ascribed to “greed” or “human nature” without the psychopath factor being taken into account.

        If power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely, the psychopath actively and expertly corrupts, in the main part, just for fun. I urge people to have a look at some definitions of psychopathy. Once they have infiltrated a group, they will spread their disease like a cancer. Those around them will come to accept, admire, and adopt psychopathic thinking and selfish manipulative behaviours.

        • seeker 13.1.1.1

          Mike

          Powerful and insightful comment especially:

          ‘Once they have infiltrated a group, they will spread their disease like a cancer. Those around them will come to accept, admire, and adopt psychopathic thinking and selfish manipulative behaviours.’

          I believe it behoves all of us to be more discerning and to encourage our youth to be likewise …
          Wise discernment is the prime way to deflect the spread of their disease. Unfortunately I have seen many in the National party and the MSM become ‘infected’ and move to the ‘dark side’. Their behaviour,once quite reasonable, subtly changes until they are all chirrping blindly from the same tombstone. Horrible.
          I wonder who the carrier of the disease was and when it first started?

          • mike 13.1.1.1.1

            Whats worse, once the leadership is infected, the disease can spread to the population by osmosis. Greed is good, might is right, don’t love thy neighbour. They follow the example of their leader. Witness some of the small-minded and self-centred RWNJ arguments of some on this site. And try watching Fox news, America’s most popular ‘news’ network, for more than an hour without being shocked by the bigotry. (I was trying to watch it for a while to observe the madness, but eventually it actually began to make me feel nauseous.)

            “I believe it behoves all of us to be more discerning and to encourage our youth to be likewise…”

            Sadly I only see a dumbing down going on, and guess who that suits.

            Who was the carrier? I doubt there is just one… However I hear the disease is rife amongst bankers and traders. My prime suspect: John Key.

        • Frida 13.1.1.2

          Mike there’s definitely something in this. Not sure if it’s evil but more along the lines of what a Christian fundy once tried to argue to me when defending her nutty climate change denial stance. From memory it went something along the lines of ‘well the bible says the Earth’s resources are for mankind to use and when they run out it doesn’t matter anyway cos we are in the End Times and the good believers amongst us are going to a better place anyway.’

          Nutty but scary stuff. She wouldn’t listen to reason either.

          And with the Catholic Mafia on the Government Front Bench I wouldn’t be surprised if a similar view is held by them

          • Frida 13.1.1.2.1

            Sorry I was responding to mac1’s original comment if that wasn’t clear!!

          • Vicky32 13.1.1.2.2

            And with the Catholic Mafia on the Government Front Bench I wouldn’t be surprised if a similar view is held by them

            Not a chance! Catholics are, as I have tried to point out before, very different, and hold views 180º opposed to the ones you say your fundy acquaintance held.
            What the Nats did/will do is bead enough, without trying to drag in anti-religious bigotry, no matter how well it goes down with Standardistas… (Talk about swallowing dead rats – there are times I just have to endure the hysterical bigotry here, for the sake of the more nuanced views I want to read…)

            • Frida 13.1.1.2.2.1

              Sorry I generally try and ignore your bigoted postings so I had missed you defending the religious whack jobs previously

              But now I know you’re a god botherer it does explain a good deal about your offensive views on homosexuality and abortion so I will definitely ignore anything you have to say in future.

              And for the record I didn’t ‘make up’ what the Christian fundy told me as your post seems to imply. I was forced to stand there and listen to the deluded bronze age crap being spouted at me.

              Don’t bother replying, I won’t read it or respond to you. I have absolutely no time for religious nut jobs and am not afraid to say so.

              Over and out

              • felix

                Vick’s gonna call you a bigot now, cos if you don’t tolerate her homophobia and racism you’re practising religious oppression against her or some such bullshit.

                I’m glad the Christos I know aren’t like her.

              • Vicky32

                Sorry, Frida, I ought to ignore you, but it just isn’t in me to do so… I did not imply you ‘made up’ what the ‘fundy’ said – I’ve had ‘fundies’ say similar things to me! You chose to infer that, I wonder why? Did you in fact make it up and you feel guilty? ???
                I had simply wanted to point out that Catholics think differently from fundies, but you don’t want to hear it. Mental health issues much? You wanna kill babies so bad that you refuse to hear anyone who doesn’t believe in murder? If you have a job, I wonder how you manae to function – do you interrogate someone about their views on baby-killing before conversing with them? How does your boss feel about that, supposing she disagrees with you? It all could be very awkward…

  14. Afewknowthetruth 14

    Apart from the fact that everything connected with central and local government is Orwellian (war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery) these days, people who are concerned about the future need to look in the mirror.

    Present living arrangements in NZ are entirely dependent on all the kinds of activities people profess to hate.

    On a typical day in NZ people drive to work, drive their children to school (or put them on a bus), drive to a supermarket, purchase food produced via induistrial agriculture (which is predicated abuse of animals and on the consumption of huge amounts of oil and natural gas), cook, wash and get entertained courtesy of fossil fuels.

    During their leisure time they drive to golf courses, tennis clubs, rugby games, netball matches, or just drive for something to do. Prior to Chistmas they buy a whole load of junk, mostly made in China these days, because it looks pretty (it’s the nature of humans). And the more affluent among us fly somewhere. Imports of cars, jetskis, electrical goods etc. are paid for via industrial agriculture and mining of natural resources.

    How many people who will be protesting against extreme looting of the planet we live on are very happy to get the short term benefits from less covert looting?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogo_(comic_strip)#.22We_have_met_the_enemy_and_he_is_us..22

    You can’t consume a planet and keep living on it. Or as Derrick Jensen put it, you can’t kill and planet and live on it too:

    http://foodfreedom.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/you-cant-kill-a-planet-and-live-on-it-too-interview-with-derrick-jensen/

    and

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MeiB1Q70k0

    At the moment about 0.1% of the populace seem to understand. (Okay, maybe 1%).

    Paradigm shift anyone?

    • Uturn 14.1

      1+

      Simply acknowledging this fact every time we spend money or use any resourse (no need to get fanatical or depressed about it – even though it is important for survival) will help highlight our position in a dynamic environment. We are an integral part of the system, neither several steps apart on safe ground or tourists.

  15. Alan 15

    Have you actually seen the Denniston plateau? It’s as near as we’ve got to a desert. Even pine trees won’t grow up there! Rare Snails my arse! Every time anyone wants to do something here, there’s ‘rare’ snails in the way – thousands of them.

    I voted for Damien btw, as any sane Coaster would, and we NEED the mining jobs.

    cheers

    • Afewknowthetruth 15.1

      Alan.

      Which part of rendering the Earth unihabitable for your children (or your neighbour’s if you don’t have any) do you not understand?

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/nov/30/canada-tar-sands-copenhagen-climate-deal

      ( a little dated but the image says it all)

      • Alan 15.1.1

        This is not that sort of operation.

        We live in Greymouth and we had 9 children, (3 natural, 6 adopted). They’ve all grown and gone because there simply aren’t enough jobs here. Some may return one day, they’d like to, but I doubt it – the Coast’s biggest export has always been its young people.

        Mining makes a mess, but it doesn’t stay like that. Have a look at Goldsborough, Waiuta, Okarito, Charleston – all once big mining areas, (Charleston was bigger than Wellington!), and now you’ve got to look really hard to see where they were – and that is without the land-restoration that is required these days.

        cheers

        • Draco T Bastard 15.1.1.1

          Jobs aren’t the problem, distribution of the resources is. If we had a rational economy we probably wouldn’t need to dig up all that coal at all.

          We produce far more than what we need to maintain our society sustainably and keep everyone at a reasonable living standard.

          And here’s the big question: What do you do for jobs once all the coal is gone?

          • mac1 15.1.1.1.1

            “But when the job is o’er and my boat rots on the shore
            How will I feed my family when the companies move away?”

            “Men’o’Worth” – Archie Fisher

            Exactly.

    • mac1 15.2

      Have you actually seen the Denniston plateau?

      Yep!

      It’s as near as we’ve got to a desert.

      Yep! That’s why it’s important.

      Even pine trees won’t grow up there!

      There are other ways of defining utility or beauty!

      Rare Snails my arse! Every time anyone wants to do something here, there’s ‘rare’ snails in the way – thousands of them.

      Well reasoned.

      I voted for Damien btw,

      good for you

      as any sane Coaster would,

      there are other ways of defining sanity!

      and we NEED the mining jobs.

      Why does my mind flick immediately to the same argument when applied to slavery? Alan, there are other ways in which the Coast and Coasters can survive, and thrive.

      cheers

      And to you, cheers.

      • insider 15.2.1

        Mac

        Denniston is a near desert because people came and mined there 100 years ago and there have been regular burn offs. Not sure how you can claim it has a unique status because of that. Do industrial wastelands like Mapua or Waihi or have the same status?

        • mac1 15.2.1.1

          Insider, the landscape of New Zealand has a history of ‘burn-offs’ either naturally occurring or by human intervention. Other effects on the landscape come from weather, earthquakes, animals introduced or native, and human activity.

          So yes, although altered, landscapes can still be unique in terms of their flora, fauna, rock formation/s, natural beauty, location etc.

          Industrial wastelands or not- history has enough examples of what were industrial wastelands altered into something more appealing- but then the whole concept that you argue from is human-based, culturally based, based on notions of what is actually ‘wasteland’. The same that Alan above was arguing about deserts.

          Read “The Seven Pillars of Wisdom” and find out what deserts can actually be- homes, spiritual birthplaces etc. Where did Christ go when he wanted to pray?

          • insider 15.2.1.1.1

            This is not an ancient modified landscape with unique adaptations AFAIK, it is one modified in very recent memory. That’s why I don’t view it as having significant value, any more so than the hillside cleared of pine plantation, or the Stockton minescape a couple of kms up the road.

    • Afewknowthetruth 16.1

      chris

      What is that supposed to mean?

      You celebrate nature and are opposed to mining?

      Or you celebrate mining and look forward to nature being exterminated?

      • chris73 16.1.1

        Yes

      • felix 16.1.2

        It means he wants to support whatever National wants to do but can’t think of a way to actually argue in favour of it, so now he’ll bore everyone to distraction with meaningless gibberish and pretend he was just here for the lulz all along.

        Make a case, chris. Step up and tell us all why you support this move by the Nat govt.

        (cue “I have”, and “I never said I did”, and “you’re all too stupid to understaaaand my sophisticated style of debate”. Yawn.)

        • chris73 16.1.2.1

          Fine, I support mining and this endevor will create jobs in one of the most depressed areas of the country and I hope this time the govt won’t cave into a bunch of star-struck NIMBYs from Auckland

          • felix 16.1.2.1.1

            There you go, wasn’t too hard after all.

            Actual mining question aside, what do you reckon about the Nats waiting until the day after the election to break their promise?

            • chris73 16.1.2.1.1.1

              If they did, because lets face it forest and bird arn’t exactly neutral, its par for the course for any political party to breal promises

              Fortunately I agree with this course of action so I’m not fussed about it

              • mike

                That’s RWNJ arguments are reduced to – breaking promises is fine.

              • felix

                Err chris you must be thinking of a different F&B. They’re most definitely not a politically motivated organisation. You couldn’t be more wrong about that.

                Anyhoo, what if the govt promised to do something you did agree with (say, opening a new mine and giving you a payrise) and then the day after the election they reneged?

                Still not fussed?

                • chris73

                  Politicians break promises all the time, so I’d be blase about it (and depending on the promise broken would determine my vote at the next election)

              • crashcart

                You know what Chris that is some pretty good reasoning. Mining will create jobs in a depressed area. I have another good one. Northland has terrible unemployment and grows really good weed. Legalise cannbis to create jobs in North land. The country has huge demand for P. lets legalise that and create a massive industry and lower unemployment even further. After all your argument is that the ends justify the means.

  16. Tiger Mountain 17

    We have a minister of Labour too, who in reality is minister for capital as it is hands off all the way.
    Non intervention in disputes between workers and employers where some could be useful, but maximum intervention in changing the playing field to the detriment of workers-90 day Fire at Will, legislation under urgency that violates ILO freedom of association etc.

    More marches yes! Maybe some of the million that did not vote in the general election may care to participate too. People have to act, waiting for the next election is no longer an option.

    • Ianupnorth 17.1

      And as was pointed out by Annette king, we have a minister for racing, but not one for children – we care more for the TAB, equines and their owners/trainers than we do about those who will care for us in the future – go figure.

      • Nick C 17.1.1

        I find it bizzare that you judge what people care about more by what does and does not have a government department/minister dedicated to it.

        • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1

          I find it bizarre that we have prioritised budgets for a Minister for Race Horses and not one for a Minister of Children.

          • Afewknowthetruth 17.1.1.1.1

            CV

            Don’t forget we had a minister for rugby (not sure if we still do, probably; it’s such a good rort, why cancel it?) and have a minister tourism.

            The prime concern of most government ministers is to ensure that fossil fuels are converted into CO2 as quickly as possible.

            We might as well call them all ‘ministers for fucking the future of young New Zealanders’.

            Unfortunately, the last Labour government was locked into much the same mindset.

            I recall talking to Harry Do-nothing (when he was associate minster for resources) about the need to keep fossil fuels in the ground and lead the way in decoupling from dependence on sequestered carbon if he wanted his children to have a future.

            A week or so later he signed a deal for overseas corporations to start drilling.

  17. Afewknowthetruth 18

    chris

    So you managed to blurt it out in the end. You are in favour of annihilating nature as it currently exists, and by inferrence you are in favour of humanty annihilating itself for ‘a few pieces of silver’ (just for your information, since you seem to be so very, very stupid, humanity cannot exist without the natural systems that make life life on Earth possible). Kill the planet we live on. Nice one!

    Just think, since you have a suicide wish, you could get on with if this afternoon and save us the bother of having to put up with your inane comments in the future.

    • chris73 18.1

      “You are in favour of annihilating nature as it currently exists, and by inferrence you are in favour of humanty annihilating itself for ‘a few pieces of silver’ (just for your information, since you seem to be so very, very stupid, humanity cannot exist without the natural systems that make life life on Earth possible). Kill the planet we live on. Nice one!”

      – Wow melodramatic much?

      “Just think, since you have a suicide wish, you could get on with if this afternoon and save us the bother of having to put up with your inane comments in the future.”

      – Hate speech from the left (are you a leftie or looney?) anyone surprised

      Instead of wishing people dead why not go outside and hug a tree? I think you might be suffering from oxygen deprivation

  18. Afewknowthetruth 19

    mike.

    I nearly missed your earlier comment.

    Yes, I agree with what you say about psychopaths. Selfish and greedy is a ‘nice’ way of saying it.

    I have put is slightly differently on many occasions, describing most of our so-called leaders as psychotic sociopaths (mentally ill and disconnected from reality, unable to form meaningful relationships with those around them and prone to antisocial behaviours).

    Needless to say, they take money from us (via taxes, rates, charges) and use the money to promote their dysfunctional policies and mislead society

    That is a kind of evil, is it not?

    • chris73 19.1

      So what would you class yourself? Because suggesting I should kill myself isn’t exactly normal behaviour (maybe it is where you come from I guess)

    • mike 19.2

      I didn’t mean I thought it not evil, I just think some people’s view of ‘human nature’ is skewed by the historical actions of psychopaths. I mean, I can’t help wondering how different our history would be if there were none. We might well have a different view of our own potential human failings of greed, meglomania, exploitation, war, etc.

      Are they evil? You are into interesting philosophical and even spiritual debate territory there! Dr Robert Hare, probably the foremost expert on psychopathy, says it’s actually quite difficult to call psychopathy a mental illness under any meaningful definition of mental illness. He says a biologist might dispassionately call it a valid and often effective adaptation to an organism’s environment, albeit a very selfish one. He even hints at calling them a different species!

      It is increasingly understood that they are very well adapted to the corporate and political worlds, and I’m interested that modern scientific understanding of psychopaths in society, i.e. not just the ones behind bars, is changing quite quickly. Especially in light of current events.

      Nice vid below by the way.

  19. Julia 20

    Afktt

    Having read your countless comments on peak oil, implosion of our systems, acid oceans etc, might I comment we heard you the first time?

    There appears to be a couple of dozen contributors to this site maybe there is a better more productive medium for your message?

    As a practical, sustainable, environmentally friendly option, have you considered sandwich boards?

    You could tramp up and down main streets, or stand on busy intersections, and get a wide audience for your assorted messages. Obvious key points such as THE END IS NIGH! or WE ARE DOOMED!, spring to mind as useful starting points. Old messages certainly, but everyone would get your drift.

    • Afewknowthetruth 20.1

      Julia.

      ‘might I comment we heard you the first time?’

      If only that were,/b> the case!

      Day afer day, week after week, month after month, I read articles posted for comment and responses that clearly indicate most people don’t get it. Most people don’t get it at all! They are either in total denial or think that greenwash ‘solutions’ proposed by the Green Party are going to save them. In both cases the main reason seems to be gross ignorance.

      Re: you suggestion; I learned my lesson after Auckland Police came up with trumpted-up charges, abused me and lied in court, as is usually the case when anyone overtly opposes the agenda of the empire. Never again, thanks. Anyway, people don’t respond to sandwich boards unless they are advertising free stuff or a discount sale.

      Just look at how ‘Occupiers’ have been treated by the vicious bastards that make up a lot of police forces around the world -beaten over the head, kicked in the face, torso or genitals, sprayed in the face with pepper spray, fired on with rubber bullets, locked in cells with no sanitation. If you want an insight into how ‘security’ forces deal with those who stand for truth and justice, try this:

      • Afewknowthetruth 20.1.1

        The comment editor shuts off too quickly for when systems siezes up.

      • Vicky32 20.1.2

        (‘might I comment we heard you the first time?’
        Yes, Julia! I am with you there… )
         
        Just look at how ‘Occupiers’ have been treated by the vicious bastards that make up a lot of police forces around the world -beaten over the head, kicked in the face, torso or genitals, sprayed in the face with pepper spray, fired on with rubber bullets, locked in cells with no sanitation. If you want an insight into how ‘security’ forces deal with those who stand for truth and justice, try this:
         

        I suspect Afttt, that you want to be a martyr… 😀 Sadly, I skim your posts, in the hope that you’ll actually have something new to say one day! Really, I am not 100% in sympathy with your views, maybe 50%, but you are in serious danger of alienating those who might potentially be your supporters.
        I have a horrid feeling that you won’t care, but would just say “They won’t listen to Me, they’ll suffer.. Hehehehe… “

  20. Afewknowthetruth 21

    alan

    Yes, nature has in the past managed to recover to some extent from many of the assaalts mankind made on it, but there is much unseen damage, e.g. elevated levels of mercury in fish which now so high it is dangerous to eat too much salmon (not that we can afford to). And humans have pushed nature to the brink of collapse.

    Are you really suggesting we should push nature beyond he brink of collapse?

    Your pro-mining argument fails to address the matters of abrupt climate change and acdification of the oceans, either of which is very likely to render much of the Earth uninhabitable in a matter of decades.

  21. Julia 22

    Actually I was being facetious AFKTW, perhaps because I can afford salmon, and ive got my fingers crossed the oil lasts long enough to keep my SLK Mercedes in petrol to the “end of times” lol

    Having said that, I admire your persistence and sincerity.

    And no, Im in no doubt as the function and purpose of state security systems. At the pointy end of the stick, as security official or a protester, one would be naiive to not know otherwise.

  22. Afewknowthetruth 23

    chris

    ‘Wow melodramatic much?’

    Try telling that to an inhabitant of Joplin, or New Orleans, or Texas, now into its 12th month of catastrophic drought:

    Or try telling the people in the Fukishima district who have had their lives destroyed by industrialism ‘Wow melodramatic much’.

    The wonderful irony that is that the US is fast ‘going under’ as a direct result of the culture of ‘greed is good’ and the denial of reality that sociopaths of ‘the right’ have fostered for such a long time.

    http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

    What would I class myself as? Humanitarian -someone who wants to minimise the suffering to come.

    I would also class myself as saner than most people I communicate with, since I don’t want the natural systems that make life possible wrecked, whereas wrecking the habitability of the Earth doesn’t seem to bother them.

    I only suggested you ‘get it over with’ because you do have a death wish for coming generations.

    • chris73 23.1

      You can justify it all you want but you still sound like you have a screw loose. Personally speaking I think that you’re probably quite an insigificant person thats latched onto some “big” issue in an effort to make yourself feel important.

      Good luck with that

      • Afewknowthetruth 23.1.1

        chris

        ‘you still sound like you have a screw loose’

        That is pretty much what people said when Copernicus said that the Sun didn’t go round the Earth. A little later Galileo was persecuted for promoting the truth and forced to recant what he knew was true by ‘those who knew better’.

        ‘On the basis of these observational discoveries, Galileo began to teach the modified Copernican heliocentric model of the solar system as the correct one. He even used Kepler’s laws to calculate orbital parameters for the orbits of the satellites revolving around Jupiter. However, direct proof that Earth moves around the Sun was still lacking. Furthermore, the Catholic Church considered Galileo’s heliocentric theory to be heretical. It placed Copernicus’s book on its Index of Restricted Books and tried Galileo before the Inquisition. Galileo was forced to recant the heliocentric theory and was placed under house arrest for the last eight years of his life.’

        http://science.jrank.org/pages/3276/Heliocentric-Theory-triumph-heliocentric-theory.html

        I suggest you make a careful note of this ‘conversation’ and 3 years from now check who was closest to the truth (if you are still alive).

        As for the other portion of your comment, it’s not worth responding to.

        • chris73 23.1.1.1

          Thats impressive, I mean I think pretty highly of myself but to compare yourself to Copernicus and Galileo is really quite something.

          Grandiose delusions

          In colloquial usage, one who overestimates one’s own abilities, talents, stature or situation is sometimes said to have ‘delusions of grandeur’. This is generally due to excessive pride, rather than any actual delusions.

          Anyone else you want to compare yourself? I’m guessing you probably identify with Cassandra.

          • Galeandra 23.1.1.1.1

            Chris73 @ 16.1.2.1..
            ..
            ‘(and depending on the promise broken would determine my vote at the next election)’ ….
            so you might be old enough to vote next time then?

            If you and your mates from the young Nats want to hang around, do so by all means.
            But the smart alec stuff isn’t going to cut it, is it? A reasoned debate might help you or others learn something.

            I’m impressed that you obviously studied Classics and know all about Cassandra.
            Maybe you studied Hamlet,too? Because you’re acting like some of the youngsters Hamlet complained about, you know – ‘troops of children, little eyasses.’
            Do you fancy yourself as a bit of an eyass?

            • chris73 23.1.1.1.1.1

              Young Nats? I’m not entirely sure what you mean as I’m probably too old to be a member (I’ll give you hint, you can guess my age from my user name) and I’m not actually interested in joining any political party

              Maybe lay off the cooking sherry before posting?

      • gnomic 23.1.2

        C73. Perhaps you are an utterly insignificant person with nothing better to do than hang around this blog making snide remarks which add nothing useful to the discussion.

        At least AFKTT appears to be motivated by a genuine concern for the future of the Earth and its inhabitants, and has devoted a considerable amount of time and energy to making his views known.

        http://www.oilcrash.com/articles/moore_09.htm

        Care to outline your own noteworthy contributions to discussion on any topic of major social import?

  23. Afewknowthetruth 24

    chris.

    I know you have great difficulty understanding simple English but please, please do try to understand this.

    I have never compared myself to Copernicus or Galileo in intellect. All I have said is that people who put forward ideas that do not conform to mainstream thinking (or the thinking of the uninformed masses) are regarded as eccentric, crazy, a ‘screw loose’ or whatever else those who do not understand the issue like to come up with as insults.

    You repeatedly demonstrate the phenomenon.

    • fender 24.1

      +1

      7+3= whatever john key says it is

      • neoleftie 24.1.1

        from the comments, if true, chris73 has made over the last few months he is the following:
        swing voter.
        working class
        white mate
        born 1973
        and see things very much through the narrow lens of those factors / influencers

        BUT he come on here and comments and comments from a very working class centralist position. give him some credit for posting..after all we need a balance of opinions.

        • felix 24.1.1.1

          Yeah chris is alright. He can give as good as he gets and make a point when he wants to.

        • Afewknowthetruth 24.1.1.2

          neoleft.

          Probably true.

          Hence we can see why the semblance of democracy we have has failed. The uninformed far outnumber the informed.

          Cheaper beer, cheaper fuel, cheaper cars, more roads, more race tracks, plunder the Earth till there is nothing left.

        • Vicky32 24.1.1.3

          BUT he come (sic) on here and comments and comments from a very working class centralist position. give him some credit for posting..after all we need a balance of opinions

          Wow, neoleftie, elitist much? What’s wrong with being working class? I am. Frankly, middle-class innerleckshuals get right up my nose, even though some working-class people have called me an innerleckshual! 😀 As I have previously said, and my reward has been a shedload of misogynistic abuse – the Standard is a pretty conformist place…

  24. Frida 25

    Forest and Bird has good legal advisors right?

    Because it seems to me that if they have documentation or other proof whereby the Minister created an expectation that part of the process would involve public consultation and now she has one back on that ‘promise’, this is prima facie grounds for a judicial review challenge of the decision not to consult.

  25. Frida 26

    Sorry that should have read ‘gone back on that promise’. Can’t get used to typing on an iPad.

    While a court could not ORDER that consultation take place (because it cannot make such a mandatory order against the Crown) The remedy to such a successful challenge would be a declaration that the Minister must fulfill her promise to consult. There is a convention that the Government will comply with such declarations given in a court of law.

    • lprent 26.1

      You are not alone. Lyn reckons that it is quite good. I just think that her fingers are smaller and more precise than mine.

      I have to write a touchscreen keyboard in the next few weeks. Bit more complicated as it is a resistive screen rather than capacitive, and users may be wearing gloves

  26. Frida 27

    Yeah I must get a wireless keyboard although apparently they are quite draining on the battery. Damn these sturdy working class hands lol :)

    Of course, the corollary to what I’ve said above is that even if judicia review was successful, the Govt would probably just invoke its favourite constitutional tool and ram through rectifying legislation under urgency to the effect that no consultation required notwithstanding previous promises.

    Still worth a shot though I reckon. Would send a clear message, ie there are those amongst us who are not prepared to take this shit lying down.

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