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	<title>Comments on: Corruption must never be tolerated</title>
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	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: Theft is theft &#171; g.blog</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-164616</link>
		<dc:creator>Theft is theft &#171; g.blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Oct 2009 00:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-164616</guid>
		<description>[...] When Cabinet Ministers do it, it is &#8220;not a good look&#8220;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] When Cabinet Ministers do it, it is &#8220;not a good look&#8220;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rodel</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162873</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 10:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162873</guid>
		<description>Well done Bill. The best (Post modern?) spin I&#039;ve heard this year.

&quot;....Obviously the system has struggled to accommodate my situation.....&quot;

The scary thing is that this guy, &#039;managing&#039; our finances, our money hopes that people will accept this as truth but even worse he might believe it himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well done Bill. The best (Post modern?) spin I&#8217;ve heard this year.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;.Obviously the system has struggled to accommodate my situation&#8230;..&#8221;</p>
<p>The scary thing is that this guy, &#8216;managing&#8217; our finances, our money hopes that people will accept this as truth but even worse he might believe it himself.</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162816</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 02:15:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162816</guid>
		<description>If the accuser wishes me to release the private details of a third party to find out who they are taking a case against, then they HAVE to establish a case. That isn&#039;t a defamation case at that point, it is getting an order to overturn privacy. To do that they will have to present at least part of their case to a judge to get an order (that I cannot comply with).

There is no bush-lawyering. It is simply designed to be difficult......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the accuser wishes me to release the private details of a third party to find out who they are taking a case against, then they HAVE to establish a case. That isn&#8217;t a defamation case at that point, it is getting an order to overturn privacy. To do that they will have to present at least part of their case to a judge to get an order (that I cannot comply with).</p>
<p>There is no bush-lawyering. It is simply designed to be difficult&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162814</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 02:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162814</guid>
		<description>That is the whole point. I disagree with the requirement that the accuser in a defamation case gets a free run. 

So I&#039;ve constructed the system here to be as difficult as possible to play the types of legal games that Crosby just did with Hager. As far as I can see your basis of argument is that I should lie back and enjoy being raped by some small minded rorter from dipton. I&#039;m not obstructing anything, I just made sure that I reduced my potential legal exposure. If you think that is a problem then perhaps you should look at exactly what most of corporate law is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is the whole point. I disagree with the requirement that the accuser in a defamation case gets a free run. </p>
<p>So I&#8217;ve constructed the system here to be as difficult as possible to play the types of legal games that Crosby just did with Hager. As far as I can see your basis of argument is that I should lie back and enjoy being raped by some small minded rorter from dipton. I&#8217;m not obstructing anything, I just made sure that I reduced my potential legal exposure. If you think that is a problem then perhaps you should look at exactly what most of corporate law is.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Ellis</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162805</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162805</guid>
		<description>Further LP, honest opinion is a defence, but it&#039;s a defence that the defendant has to establish.  If there&#039;s a prima facie case of defamation to answer, then any attempt you might make to obstruct releasing the identity of the defendant wouldn&#039;t be looked on too kindly, in my view.  Not that I&#039;m a lawyer, but I would have thought with all your legal training you might understand that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further LP, honest opinion is a defence, but it&#8217;s a defence that the defendant has to establish.  If there&#8217;s a prima facie case of defamation to answer, then any attempt you might make to obstruct releasing the identity of the defendant wouldn&#8217;t be looked on too kindly, in my view.  Not that I&#8217;m a lawyer, but I would have thought with all your legal training you might understand that.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Ellis</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162804</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162804</guid>
		<description>Nice try, LP.  A judge might just say you own the domain, you&#039;re responsible, rather than play a part in your bush-lawyery games.  I doubt a judge would decide that there is a right to privacy that overrides defamation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice try, LP.  A judge might just say you own the domain, you&#8217;re responsible, rather than play a part in your bush-lawyery games.  I doubt a judge would decide that there is a right to privacy that overrides defamation.</p>
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		<title>By: RichWhite&#38;Fey</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162802</link>
		<dc:creator>RichWhite&#38;Fey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162802</guid>
		<description>&quot;This country is extremely fortunate to be one of the least corrupt in the world. &quot;

Err .. so tax rorts rife in the property industry have never existed, and Bob Muldoon never played favourites.

Yeah right. Try telling that to people about to leave the country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This country is extremely fortunate to be one of the least corrupt in the world. &#8221;</p>
<p>Err .. so tax rorts rife in the property industry have never existed, and Bob Muldoon never played favourites.</p>
<p>Yeah right. Try telling that to people about to leave the country.</p>
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		<title>By: rocky</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162800</link>
		<dc:creator>rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162800</guid>
		<description>Your admission that your reasons for setting the site up this way is specifically to get around the law might make a judge rule that you are responsible for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your admission that your reasons for setting the site up this way is specifically to get around the law might make a judge rule that you are responsible for it.</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162793</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 01:16:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162793</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;If you don&#039;t moderate at all, you&#039;re more likely to get away with it).&lt;/em&gt;

Stephen Price in the Media Law Review.

&lt;em&gt;but someone could sue you Lynn as the owner of the site&lt;/em&gt;

Actually I own the domain name.... The site is a co-op. The content on the site is &#039;owned&#039; by the respective authors and commentators in so far as anyone can be bothered with it. It is running on free software on a rented virtual server that I&#039;m not even paying for anymore (thanks to the generous people using the paypal button). I merely technically admin the site, do some moderation and sometimes write posts.  

&lt;em&gt;...in the disclosure period a judge could order you to give up the name of the person responsible for a post, and if you didn&#039;t know who they were, at least their IP address.&lt;/em&gt;

Yep, and this is where it gets interesting at several levels. The big problem with defamation law is that question of the accuser not having to present a case. There is no prerequisite judgement about if there is a case to answer as there is in every other branch of the law. 

In the disclosure period you have a countervailing argument of Marty&#039;s privacy, explicitly stated in several areas in this site. So getting a judgement to give up the IP would require that judge would have to rule that the case presented by the accuser would have to override the explicit right of privacy on this site. That means that a lot of the accusers case would have to be prevented, especially why they did not think this was honest opinion. Personally I think by that time it would be getting too tenuous for a judge to do the order.

Anyway, I personally don&#039;t remember numbers. I&#039;d also be locked out of the site by people protecting their privacy and their own content. They&#039;d have to get a court order to physically access the site to find that IP in the US courts. If the data hasn&#039;t moved......

What the accuser is left with is to try and run a case against some-one who essentially &#039;owns&#039; a domain name. Gets a bit tenuous....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>If you don&#8217;t moderate at all, you&#8217;re more likely to get away with it).</em></p>
<p>Stephen Price in the Media Law Review.</p>
<p><em>but someone could sue you Lynn as the owner of the site</em></p>
<p>Actually I own the domain name&#8230;. The site is a co-op. The content on the site is &#8216;owned&#8217; by the respective authors and commentators in so far as anyone can be bothered with it. It is running on free software on a rented virtual server that I&#8217;m not even paying for anymore (thanks to the generous people using the paypal button). I merely technically admin the site, do some moderation and sometimes write posts.  </p>
<p><em>&#8230;in the disclosure period a judge could order you to give up the name of the person responsible for a post, and if you didn&#8217;t know who they were, at least their IP address.</em></p>
<p>Yep, and this is where it gets interesting at several levels. The big problem with defamation law is that question of the accuser not having to present a case. There is no prerequisite judgement about if there is a case to answer as there is in every other branch of the law. </p>
<p>In the disclosure period you have a countervailing argument of Marty&#8217;s privacy, explicitly stated in several areas in this site. So getting a judgement to give up the IP would require that judge would have to rule that the case presented by the accuser would have to override the explicit right of privacy on this site. That means that a lot of the accusers case would have to be prevented, especially why they did not think this was honest opinion. Personally I think by that time it would be getting too tenuous for a judge to do the order.</p>
<p>Anyway, I personally don&#8217;t remember numbers. I&#8217;d also be locked out of the site by people protecting their privacy and their own content. They&#8217;d have to get a court order to physically access the site to find that IP in the US courts. If the data hasn&#8217;t moved&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>What the accuser is left with is to try and run a case against some-one who essentially &#8216;owns&#8217; a domain name. Gets a bit tenuous&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: outofbed</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162782</link>
		<dc:creator>outofbed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 00:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162782</guid>
		<description>a mixture of greed and arrogance i would say</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a mixture of greed and arrogance i would say</p>
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		<title>By: burt</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162770</link>
		<dc:creator>burt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 00:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162770</guid>
		<description>If National say the rules/laws are confusing and that others were doing it as well AND that this is how we have always done it so it&#039;s right to validate it - will you agree with them?  If not why not ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If National say the rules/laws are confusing and that others were doing it as well AND that this is how we have always done it so it&#8217;s right to validate it &#8211; will you agree with them?  If not why not ?</p>
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		<title>By: rocky</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162768</link>
		<dc:creator>rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162768</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s no lower limit on the amount available if the MP owns the property. But if the MP owns the property the allowance will only pay the interest, if the MP rents the property the allowance will pay the rent. Both up to the same limit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no lower limit on the amount available if the MP owns the property. But if the MP owns the property the allowance will only pay the interest, if the MP rents the property the allowance will pay the rent. Both up to the same limit.</p>
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		<title>By: Graeme Edgeler</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162766</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme Edgeler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162766</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The Greens say â€˜if someone&#039;s got to own the properties we rent, it may as well be our Superfund&#039;, there&#039;s nothing ethically different in that than if they had bought the properties individually and were getting the mortgages covered  in fact, that would probably cost the taxpayer more because most rental &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I believe there&#039;s a lower limit on the amount available if it&#039;s an MP&#039;s own property. Also, I certainly can&#039;t see it costing more, because I understand the Greens are already claiming the maximum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The Greens say â€˜if someone&#8217;s got to own the properties we rent, it may as well be our Superfund&#8217;, there&#8217;s nothing ethically different in that than if they had bought the properties individually and were getting the mortgages covered  in fact, that would probably cost the taxpayer more because most rental </p></blockquote>
<p>I believe there&#8217;s a lower limit on the amount available if it&#8217;s an MP&#8217;s own property. Also, I certainly can&#8217;t see it costing more, because I understand the Greens are already claiming the maximum.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor Mallard</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162763</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor Mallard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162763</guid>
		<description>While sometimes I  think it is great that this debate is being had,and othertimes I worry about NZs reputation - I still can&#039;t understand why Bill English decided to hand it to the left like this. Beyond belief really.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While sometimes I  think it is great that this debate is being had,and othertimes I worry about NZs reputation &#8211; I still can&#8217;t understand why Bill English decided to hand it to the left like this. Beyond belief really.</p>
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		<title>By: rocky</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/corruption-must-never-be-tolerated/comment-page-1/#comment-162758</link>
		<dc:creator>rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Oct 2009 23:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=21467#comment-162758</guid>
		<description>Sure the internet thing makes it difficult to sue Marty G when no one knows who he is. But someone could sue you Lynn as the owner of the site, and you could be liable for anything defamatory on the site (I seem to remember hearing a legal opinion somewhere that with blogs, you&#039;re likely to be liable even for defamatory comments, but only if you moderate your blog. If you don&#039;t moderate at all, you&#039;re more likely to get away with it).

Of course Lynn if you were sued for defamation, in the disclosure period a judge could order you to give up the name of the person responsible for a post, and if you didn&#039;t know who they were, at least their IP address.

It doesn&#039;t even matter where the site is hosted. If you are the owner, you are subject to NZ law and the courts do have jurisdiction as much as they would if you made the comments on the street.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure the internet thing makes it difficult to sue Marty G when no one knows who he is. But someone could sue you Lynn as the owner of the site, and you could be liable for anything defamatory on the site (I seem to remember hearing a legal opinion somewhere that with blogs, you&#8217;re likely to be liable even for defamatory comments, but only if you moderate your blog. If you don&#8217;t moderate at all, you&#8217;re more likely to get away with it).</p>
<p>Of course Lynn if you were sued for defamation, in the disclosure period a judge could order you to give up the name of the person responsible for a post, and if you didn&#8217;t know who they were, at least their IP address.</p>
<p>It doesn&#8217;t even matter where the site is hosted. If you are the owner, you are subject to NZ law and the courts do have jurisdiction as much as they would if you made the comments on the street.</p>
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