Coward

Written By: - Date published: 8:44 am, June 6th, 2012 - 79 comments
Categories: education, schools - Tags: ,

So Hekia Parata has refused to front up to education groups against her bigger class sizes.

Apparently she will defuse their anger by trying to meet organisations individually next week, on her own terms, no doubt with no large groups invited.

People are angry, and she’s scared to see it. Well, if she wants to put this policy through, she has to be prepared to take the heat, not hide.

It’s not like voters got to have a say on the policy (even their actual education policy was released just a few days before the election to not allow scrutiny). Parata’s predecessor, the ‘feckless’ Anne Tolley, had to present that policy at a hotel, far from any educational institutions, and it appears Parata is headed the same way.

79 comments on “Coward ”

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  1. Tom Gould 1
    6 June 2012 at 8:57 am

    Give her some credit. She fronted up for an interview with Geoff. She did all the talking, of course. And Geoff asked the ‘set up’ question on cue, to clear up any lefty mischief that they lied to the voters.

  2. BLiP 2
    6 June 2012 at 8:59 am

    .

    Its not just cowardly, its stupid as well. Far be it from me to offer advice to Tory scum but wouldn’t attending the meeting take some of the heat off? Seriously, in terms of sheer idiocy and typical National Ltd™ arrogance this would have to rank up there with Chopper Tolley attending a teachers’ conference and using her allotted time to read out a childrens’ story.

  3. Jackal 3
    6 June 2012 at 9:16 am

    People have started calling for Parata to resign. NZ Herald (not online yet) Govt’s class-size debacle leaves a handful of options:

    Such arrogance looks like incompetence and, indeed, the two usually fellow travelers. The Government’s response, even allowing for the fact they were blindsided, has been totally incompetent.

    There are three possibilities now: one rapidly receding into the middle distance, is the Government shows some leadership and hose things down by announcing a moratorium on staff cuts and establishing a genuinely consultative group to advise on the issues; two, that it continue the failed PR strategy that it knows best and everyone will soon see that. (That’s worked well so far!) Three, the Minister could resign.

    ~ Robin Duff, President of the Secondary Teachers Union, the PPTA.

    Personally I’m for option 3.

    • Sweetd 3.1
      6 June 2012 at 9:59 am

      OMG, PPTA calling for a National Minister to resign. Next you will tell me the Pope is Catholic.

      • felix 3.1.1
        6 June 2012 at 10:56 am

        I know, they’re so predictable. And petty. Especially when it’s obvious that the minister is doing such a good job.

      • Jackal 3.1.2
        6 June 2012 at 11:20 am

        I’ve had a quick search of Google but cannot find any other reference to the PPTA requesting a National Minister resign?

        The Pope is Catholic… Did you know Ratzinger was also in the Hitler Youth, trained in the German infantry and anti-aircraft corps. Nothing Catholic about that mate.

        • bbfloyd 3.1.2.1
          6 June 2012 at 11:26 am

          “ratzinger was in the hitler youth”… what’s not catholic about that?

          • Pascal's bookie 3.1.2.1.1
            6 June 2012 at 11:42 am

            That’s not fair floyd.

            You don’t have to *have* a mainly Catholic population to go fasc1st.
            I mean, it’s not logically necessary.

            Coincidences: spain, italy, south america, vichy france, austria

          • mike e 3.1.2.1.2
            6 June 2012 at 6:30 pm

            Ratzinger was pope johns go to man on covering up the catholic churchs pediophiles

        • felix 3.1.2.2
          6 June 2012 at 11:26 am

          Oh Sweetd doesn’t really do “fact-based”.

        • Vicky32 3.1.2.3
          6 June 2012 at 3:48 pm

          The Pope is Catholic… Did you know Ratzinger was also in the Hitler Youth, trained in the German infantry and anti-aircraft corps.

          Nonsense. He was in the Hitler Youth, but so was every teenager who couldn’t evade it. But as for the rest, curb your prejudice! He was far too young to have been in the infantry etc. Oh and BBFloyd, curb yout bigotry as well, please?

          • Billy Fish 3.1.2.3.1
            6 June 2012 at 4:50 pm

            Actually he was trained in both. one of the crimes of that scum regime was to put thier children into combat roles for the fatherland and other such bollocks.
            He did the smart thing and deserted. Any attempt to label him a Nazi is rubbish. He was in all those groups but it wasn’t like he ran skipping to the sign up desk. Agree BBFloyd, park your bigotory at the door.

          • felix 3.1.2.3.2
            6 June 2012 at 5:11 pm

            What prejudice? Apparently you missed the bit where he said “Nothing Catholic about that mate.” *

            Which is weird Vicky, ‘cos it was right at the end of the bit you copy/pasted. You would have actually had to go out of your way to omit it.

            *Which means – and as an enthusiast of the language I’m sure you’ll agree – that you can only be referring to prejudice against the n@zis.

            • Vicky32 3.1.2.3.2.1
              7 June 2012 at 5:51 pm

              *Which means – and as an enthusiast of the language I’m sure you’ll agree – that you can only be referring to prejudice against the n@zis.

              Felix, as you know perfectly well what I meant, you’re being an idiot. I really ought not to feed you any tasty troll food, but I am feeling kind.

          • bbfloyd 3.1.2.3.3
            6 June 2012 at 8:36 pm

            I’ll take your assumptions on board vicky……I shouldn’t be making jokes about the catholic churches barely tacit endorsement of the nazi regime…….

            I can quite understand people being sensitive about shameful aspects of any groups history…..

            • Vicky32 3.1.2.3.3.1
              7 June 2012 at 5:47 pm

              I shouldn’t be making jokes about the catholic churches barely tacit endorsement of the nazi regime…….
               

              Given that your ‘jokes’ are based on lies (however widely believed those lies are, and how convenient they are for some!) yes, you shouldn’t.
              I have found some links that I fear you won’t bother reading, but once again, I laugh to myself at the irony of the fact that although I am not a Catholic, once again I find myself defending the church simply because ignorance, and prejudice and bigotry based on ignorance simply make me incandescent with rage.
              http://divineblessings.wordpress.com/2012/01/21/catholic-church-helped-save-jews-during-nazism/
              http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2857&CFID=140857646&CFTOKEN=97209610
              (That one is particularly interesting as it shows the opposite of what youse guys seem to believe).

              • bbfloyd …
                8 June 2012 at 10:19 pm

                you lecture me on my ignorance of history without a shred of knowledge about my background, or how much research i’ve done… then compound that arrogance by attempting to tell me my own mind…..

                then justify that stance by giving me tracts written by members of that church….. my word, that’s credible…….

                not a convincing way to completely misinterpret what was said, and the spirit with which it was said….. seems you misunderstood my reply as well….. and your qualifications to lecture me are?

                • Vicky32 …
                  8 June 2012 at 10:28 pm

                  then justify that stance by giving me tracts written by members of that church….. my word, that’s credible…….
                   

                  My, aren’t we Mr Angry-man today! My only “qualification for lecturing you”, is that you are comprehensively wrong, and I see from what you said, that I am justified in my expectation that you would not read the links I gave – or you would not have called them ‘tracts’… in a rather pathetic attempt to make sure that everyone else will be put of reading them.

                  seems you misunderstood my reply as well

                  If I misunderstood you, then kindly clarify? You were simply being snide, and that’s easy enough even for someone like me (with Aspergers) to understand.

          • Jackal 3.1.2.3.4
            7 June 2012 at 9:08 am

            Aw c’mon Vicky32. A comment involving the clergy and f@cism… how could I resist?

        • prism 3.1.2.4
          6 June 2012 at 8:14 pm

          Just to digress. Last Saturday night on Prime on the series called Na..i Hunters after 10.30 pm the episode dealt with one chap who had been sheltered by a right wing sect of the Catholic church in France. The hunters were after him but supplied the information to French police who took it to a successful conclusion I think.

    • Dr Terry 3.2
      6 June 2012 at 4:07 pm

      Fair enough Jackal. But this would mean that Key also resign – he is the driving power behind educational “policy”.

      • Matthew Whitehead 3.2.1
        6 June 2012 at 10:56 pm

        Actually I highly doubt he came up with the policy himself, he merely did not appoint capable subordinates who would have realised this is an indefensible policy.

  4. prism 4
    6 June 2012 at 10:17 am

    Parata thinks 50,000 teachers in NZ is about enough. She sounds as if she is at a school fair guessing how many lollies there are in the jar. She’ll win all her lollies and the jar and NZ org. willl get b…er all.

    • mike e 4.1
      6 June 2012 at 9:30 pm

      hik piranha thinks following the smile and wave formula and just spin while hiding behind her pariah
      smile the cuts go deep in our brighter future.
      Smart economy yeah right.
      Right wing ideology that’s not working. again no surprises .
      Conmankeys under study she might just be sold down the river to put an end to any leadership thoughts she has

  5. John M 5
    6 June 2012 at 10:30 am

    I wonder what the chair of the Tertiary Education Commission thinks about all this.

  6. Maggy May 6
    6 June 2012 at 10:52 am

    This is all going to John Keys plan for NZ.
    He has the private schools to educate those they have decided will lead NZ in the future.

    We all know it is so true that to educate a child they learn to ask questions, make up their own minds, be able to access situations for themselves, be independant, confidant adults, all those things that John Key thinks manual and land workers do not need.

    What a joy to have a whole workforce to do the low paid work and feel they do not have any choices. Just the NZ wanted by the Neo Concervatives headed here by John Key, while they enjoy the fruits of life as the chosen few.

  7. freedom 7
    6 June 2012 at 10:58 am

    Hassling Parata for these fundamental stuff ups is important buti sn’t there some guy we pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to so he can manage all this stuff?

    He’s called the Prime Minister of New Zealand or something, well he introduced himself that way to a rugby player when he went to stroke the Queen’s Corgis so i figure he must be they guy who has the job. He also seems to think cheese is a really important part of representing NZ culture to the world. I am pretty sure the Jubilee invite did not say ‘bring a plate’.

    I am told he was a financial whizz kid and have been told it repeatedly so he must be really good with numbers. He did make squillions of dollars for him and his Banker mates. The odd thing is I am certain he is meant to sign off the figures on Budget type stuff before it gets released into the wilds of NZ. I could be mistaken, maybe numbers that involve real people are different, or maybe they just aren’t his thing.

    I have not heard much from him since that nice party he had in November and people threw all those lovely yellow ribbons over him but i guess there just aren’t any journalists wanting to talk to him. I understand the news folk are really busy creating hype for Sally and Jamie. I know there is an All Blacks tour approaching and there has been billions been lost by dodgy directors we dare not name and lots of selfish poor people are wanting to feed their kids next week and all of that makes for important news but sadly it leaves no space for our glorious leader. This is a shame because i know the PM has dynamic views on aspiration and achievement for everyone who can pay for it.

    Perhaps he has some answers for the country he is meant to be leading to a brighter future?
    of course first we have to find someone willing to ask the questions

    • bbfloyd 7.1
      6 June 2012 at 11:31 am

      Sigh… he is such a cuddly bunny isn’t he…….he would be absolutely perfect if he could also run fast…..

      that would make him an excellent moving target….

  8. Doug 8
    6 June 2012 at 11:44 am

    Labour had a better idea close the schools, thats a better way of reducing Teacher numbers.

  10. Dv 10
    6 June 2012 at 12:27 pm

    And now the min of ed are not releasing the staffing data to ppta and rnz. Get it by an OIA the min said.
    Bizzare.

  11. Ross 11
    6 June 2012 at 12:30 pm

    To be fair, Parata is getting her advice from Treasury and possibly feels nervous about doing a Shane Jones (ie, thinking for herself).

    I don’t see how Treasury can have the time to veer off into policy areas for which it is not well-qualified, especially when it still isn’t able to accurately predict the tax take, GDP and other important indicators for which it supposedly has much expertise.

    http://www.interest.co.nz/news/58692/treasury-says-tax-take-current-201112-year-well-below-forecast-sticks-expectation-05-grow

  12. Dv 12
    6 June 2012 at 2:18 pm

    From this web site touting schools for overseas students
    http://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/education~290.html

    The average number of students to teacher is 18 to 1 in primary schooling and 15 to 1at secondary state schools

    HTcoment in NZhearald

    I wonder how log it will stay.

    • ianmac 12.1
      6 June 2012 at 2:29 pm

      Oh good oh. I must send my kids to this great country where Primary Schools are staffed 1:18. Back in NZ they have just increased class sizes to 1:27 or even 1:35. That would be tough! 🙂

  13. captain hook 13
    6 June 2012 at 2:34 pm

    how much did her pearls cost?

  14. cin77 14
    6 June 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Is anyone really surprised that she is hiding?

  15. Monique Watson 15
    6 June 2012 at 3:00 pm

    Tolley must be advising Parata because it is exactly the same strategy that was employed by the last minister. The primary schools are being forced to drop additional teaching now. this is based on one Wellington primary school that has to decide which to cut:

    http://nowoccupy.blogspot.com/2012/06/poked-or-staffed-then-stuffed.html

  16. Pete George 16
    6 June 2012 at 4:24 pm

    It’s not just Parata that’s coming out of this looking bad (and she looks bad).

    Children have been used as pawns by teachers in their politicking, that’s unprofessional – but schooling kids to hate the Prime Minister is worse. School teaching kids to hate?

    • calltoaccount 16.1
      6 June 2012 at 4:38 pm

      Ahhh PG, the ‘bash the teachers’ line. Here’s Garner’s response (from the original, not your self promoting blog). Garner blames Parata, and I blame you for distracting.

      First things first ‘tweety’ .. calm down.

      Secondly, for kids who are told by teachers that their classes are going to be closed down – that is actually serious and a reality for them.

      No ‘brainwashing’ occurs in my house .. I make sure the kids don’t discuss politics.

      So you’re wrong on that one – but there’s plenty of anger in the schools.

      So you may want to rethink your ‘anger’ over this .. and accept that for the kids, this is reality and this is what their schools are telling them. I’m not responsible for what teachers tell the kids.

      This is not an isolated approach, it’s happening in thousands of schools right now.

    • Pascal's bookie 16.2
      6 June 2012 at 6:02 pm

      More baseless smearing Pete?

      These kids would be at intermediate, old enough to be paying attention to what’s going on and forming opinions.

      So what’s your evidence that teachers are teaching kids to hate the PM?

    • mike e 16.3
      6 June 2012 at 6:33 pm

      Pitiful Guile

    • Murray Olsen 16.4
      6 June 2012 at 7:48 pm

      King’s, Auckland Grammar and Wanganui Collegiate will be teaching kids to hate anyone not like them, so on a pure numbers game they’re doing far worse than anyone expressing well deserved distaste for the Prumsta.

    • Matthew Whitehead 16.5
      6 June 2012 at 10:58 pm

      Are you congenitally incapable of keeping on topic, Pete?

    • North 16.6
      7 June 2012 at 1:19 am

      The old Pete George trick what ……..?

      Make a limited acknowledgment then launch into apologia.

      You are so predictable. You are so boring. Please don’t run around masquerading as the reasonable man then hit us with your Tory bullshit. Everyone can see it coming……it’s bullshit Pete.

  17. Dr Terry 17
    6 June 2012 at 4:29 pm

    Parata will be waiting in hope for all this to “blow over”. That is what this government does – “time will heal” seems to be the motto. I hope the Queen enjoys the cheese, but doubt she will enjoy the Key “cheesy grin”.
    I am listening with dismay to old people supporting what is taking place, as they hark back to the “good old days” when there were 53 in a class and lots of “discipline” (ruler, strap, cane). The assumption is that children are automatically little fiends, whereas in truth it is adults who are big fiends! I remember a long way back to teachers of iron discipline with loathing (they actually seemed to hate us). Where a teacher loves his/her job, as well as the kids, discipline is almost totally unnecessary. Today, the emphasis is upon making learning interesting and fun. I am afraid that too many old people possess very selective memories.

    • North 17.1
      7 June 2012 at 1:41 am

      At 62 years of age I still carry protruding scar tissue on my arse from a caning I got when I was 16 years old. That’s cool is it ?

      Probably cool also that I never suffered in large classes of the day because I was IQ 136 and from a more or less secure and well-off home where expression was positively encouraged. Therefore I got the teacher’s attention and the benefit of the teacher’s wisdom, knowledge, and skills. I was “easy” to teach. I gave dividends.

      Pity about those poor, dumb, rough boys down the back of the class, hard out graffiti-ing the desks. At the time I loved my superiority as a snotty little white boy snob, flattered by a teacher prepared to engage me in adult debate effectively.

      I’m old enough and real enough to know that those boys down the back probably had every bit as much to give as I had. It was never tapped because relatively they were ignored.

      Bigger classes, more “idiots” down the back. Choice !

  18. Steve 18
    6 June 2012 at 8:48 pm

    I always thought that when a Teacher teaches, then the class was learning no matter what size the class was.
    Think this way: If a World Leader, Musician, Band is going to do/say something at a concert or lecture then it does not matter if there are 40, 400 people, 400 thousand people.
    When the Teachers can teach, the students will learn, until then the Teachers are just an excuse for being unemployable

    • Murray Olsen 18.1
      6 June 2012 at 8:54 pm

      How many of the 40,000 at the concert go away knowing how to play an instrument? What are you an excuse for? Your last sentence makes no sense grammatically, your others make no sense logically.

    • Draco T Bastard 18.2
      6 June 2012 at 9:23 pm

      Standing at the front lecturing != teaching as teaching involves engagement.

    • North 18.3
      7 June 2012 at 2:08 am

      So by extension Steve we can safely have 400, nay 400,000, in your class at Pasadena Intermediate and we’ll all go on to complete an honours degree. Good Oh !

      Having started this post it’s just occurred to me that you’re almost certainly being facetious and I feel very silly – still, just in case, man up, hit Submit Comment.

      If I’m wrong, I’m really, really sorry for you and really surprised that you could even identify the letters of the alphabet so as to type and send your post, the absolutely thickest post I have ever suffered reading (unless you’re being facetious of course). Sorry mate but it’s true.

  19. Bob 19
    6 June 2012 at 10:12 pm

    Oh, you got me, I saw ‘Coward’ and thought you were talking about Mallard and Little, very clever.

    Anyway, since I’m here, this has been a complete cock-up by everyone involved, and I agree, Hekia Parata’s head should roll.

    As I have said on previous blogs about this, it is shown raising class sizes to 30-35ish has next to no overall effect on outcomes for children http://www.asianscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/129_report_learning_from_the_best_main.pdf (in fact in Shanghai they average 40 kids per teacher and are out preforming everyone in all the basics, maths, science and reading) but there also needs to be efforts put into upskilling teachers and/or weeding out the ‘bad eggs’ which this policy doesn’t cover. Poorly thought out, poorly delivered to the public, poorly fronted by Hekia, she needs to be dropped from the portfolio.

    • Draco T Bastard 19.1
      6 June 2012 at 10:54 pm

      Despite the lies from NACT, we don’t have any problems with our schooling.

      • Bob 19.1.1
        6 June 2012 at 11:34 pm

        Thank you for that link Draco, it also linked to this story “major study of 65 countries reveals today.” which showed the top rated countries in the world:

        (Shanghai-China) – Average class size: 40

        Korea – Average class size: 35

        Finland – Average class size: 20

        Hong Kong-China – Average class size: 36

        Singapore – Average class size: 35

        Canada – Unknown (not stated in OECD or Asian Scientist reports)

        New Zealand – Average class size: 26.09

        So maybe I was wrong, Hekia is just trying to push us forward by bringing us in line with best practice of the coutries ahead of us in the world ratings. If only she just said that in the first place!

        References for class sizes: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/eag_highlights-2011-en/04/02/4-4.html?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/eag_highlights-2011-30-en&containerItemId=/content/serial/2076264x&accessItemIds=/content/book/eag_highlights-2011-en&mimeType=text/html http://www.asianscientist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/129_report_learning_from_the_best_main.pdf and http://www.ppta.org.nz/index.php/resources/publication-list/1878-av-class-size-calc

        • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.1
          7 June 2012 at 1:43 am

          Shanghai does have 40 per class and it also has:

          Class sizes in Shanghai are big, sometimes double an Australian class size, but they frequently have two or more teachers in the room at any one time as part of the mentoring system that runs throughout Shanghai.

          Every teacher – even the senior teachers – have a mentor who observes their classes and gives feedback on how they might be improved.

          Master teachers, who must publish research and have at least one paper peer-reviewed by a selection panel to qualify, work with senior teachers, including principals, in half a dozen schools.

          hmmmm, 40 divided by three =…

          Seems that China’s keen on education and has the teachers and the teacher support and development to support it.

          Meanwhile, in NZ, the government is cutting the number of teachers, forcing them to work harder, cutting the ability to get more top rate teachers and, as we haven’t heard anything about it yet, I wouldn’t be surprised if they cut the development and support so as to continue their unaffordable tax cuts for the rich.

          You know what, I’m all keen on NZ following the standards* that Shanghai is setting.

          Well, some of them, I think we can do without all the bowing and scraping.

          • Bob 19.1.1.1.1
            7 June 2012 at 3:07 am

            Thank you for taking the time to read and understand the situation.

            You will also notice that they only actively teach for 12.5 hours per week, as apposed to the 20 hours a week they do in Australia (not sure how long they actually teach for in NZ), and spend the rest of their time peer reviewing and mentoring, which is where the doubling up of teachers come from. This is also seen as a way to upskill existing teachers, so maybe this is how Hekia Parata could have balanced this latest Policy, rather than the slash and burn Policy she has released?

            With regards to the ‘unaffordable tax cuts for the rich’, by your calculations (or any source you can find), how much is this costing us per year? What other policies have this Government brought in that are costing a large amount (I can’t find any, in fact, they seem to have reduced costs in most areas)? So where has this massive hole in the budgets come from?

            • Draco T Bastard 19.1.1.1.1.1
              7 June 2012 at 12:55 pm

              You will also notice that they only actively teach for 12.5 hours per week, as apposed to the 20 hours a week they do in Australia (not sure how long they actually teach for in NZ), and spend the rest of their time peer reviewing and mentoring, which is where the doubling up of teachers come from.

              Yeah, probably, but NZ is cutting the number of teachers not increasing them to boost teacher development which is the point. Sure, Shanghai has 40 per class but that class has two or three teachers meaning that the teacher/pupil ratio is no more than 1:20. NZs will be 1:27.5

              You can’t find any? LOL, you’re not looking then but as I’m feeling generous try the Roads of National(s) Significance. That’s about $14b worth of hole right there. The tax cuts for the rich are costing about $1b per year in lost revenue. Cutting public service staff and then getting contractors in, which is what NACTs been doing for the last 4 years, costs far more as well.

              There’s lots of evidence out there that this government has massively boosted spending while saying that they’re cutting it.

  20. Robert Atack 20
    6 June 2012 at 11:08 pm

    Seriously, as a by-product of peak oil, climate change, over population, global economic collapse, etc, larger classes are inevitable, and way way better than no classes.
    And it doesn’t matter who is pulling our strings, those were the ‘good old days’, and that was ‘as good as it gets’.
    We just have to be adult about our collective situation, suck the sav, and accept that to survive as long as we can, we will have to learn to live with a lot less environment destroying ‘customs’ like continuing over populating of the planet, for one thing.
    If a child isn’t born it isn’t missing much. Not having a child is way better than trying to poke it through the bottle neck that is the collapse of this species.
    Welcome to the days of austerity.

  21. North 21
    6 June 2012 at 11:32 pm

    So what youy’re saying Bob, Bob, Bob is that even though The Princess Parata has fucked up in terms of delivery, she (you really mean John Key) is actually right.

    Like the substance of NZ teachers is truly of poor quality (funny how they’ve hidden it for decades – that the public deserves a bigger bang for it’s buck. Who the fuck are you to gratuitously say that. ? Where’s your evidence punk ?

    Congratulations on being owned not so much by any indiviudual but by this government’s cheap ahua which is really this: a bunch of incompetents who fashion themselves as experts on education, justice, health, whatever, and they know it all over the practitioners. That’s crap and except for your primal care for Key and your resulting need to apologise for him, you know that.

    In reality they are bunch of people who relatively know nothing about what they proudly, mock-authoritatively strut themselves as “ministers” of. For example, as one with 37 years experience I’m not going to listen to Power/Collins/Bazley tell me that changes to legal aid are gonna ensure equal access to justice for the poor. I see striking, distressing examples to the contrary every day of my working life.

    Am I meant to ignore that first hand knowledge, are practitioners in other areas meant to ignore their daily experience ? Because you, know nothing loud mouth, want to “say” about that which you know nothing ? You ignorant, unseeing dork ! Have some shame…….

    • Murray Olsen 21.1
      6 June 2012 at 11:50 pm

      You need to remember that when the Tories speak of justice, they actually mean punishment. From their point of view, cutting lawyers and legal aid does increase access to justice for the poor. The scum speak a different language.

      • Bob 21.1.1
        7 June 2012 at 12:51 am

        Nice try Murray, not a Tory, I have voted for 4 different parties in the 5 elections I have voted in, so I would definitely be classed as a ‘swing voter’. If you count NZ First as left wing (I don’t know how to class them now) then I have only ever voter for one ‘right wing’ party.

        You see Murray, I don’t let blind ideals get in the way when it comes to voting, I look at what I think the biggest issues are, see who has the policies that most closely match what I think would be the best outcome for the whole country, and vote for that party. People will often not agree with me (as North has shown), but I personally feel there has to be a balance between Socialism and Capitalism for the benefit of everyone, not just a select few at any end of the spectrum.

        • Murray Olsen 21.1.1.1
          7 June 2012 at 1:04 am

          Nice try, Bob, but I was talking about the cuts to legal aid. Maybe you should have been in smaller classes. I was in big classes too and I did ok, but it wasn’t hard to see that at least a quarter of the kids didn’t.
          I voted for a right wing party once too. It was called Labour and brought in GST, among other delights.

        • Draco T Bastard 21.1.1.2
          7 June 2012 at 1:22 am

          but I personally feel there has to be a balance between Socialism and Capitalism for the benefit of everyone,

          Then I suggest you need an education – capitalism is the problem and trying to balance against it causing more problems.

          • Bob 21.1.1.2.1
            7 June 2012 at 2:52 am

            Every system that has every been tried can be seen as a failure, Communism, Marxism, Facism, Capitalism……I think we are in a better position now than at any time during human history so I can’t see how balancing against Capitalism (or you could see it as balancing against Socialism) is a failure just yet.

            • Draco T Bastard 21.1.1.2.1.1
              7 June 2012 at 12:59 pm

              Capitalism has always fallen down. Balancing against that inevitable failure just makes things worse when it falls down yet again.

              BTW, commun1sm hasn’t been tried yet or, if to put it another way, commun1sm is the success story that allows capitalism to take over and ruin things. All societies are inherently commun1st.

    • Bob 21.2
      6 June 2012 at 11:58 pm

      North, I was going to go into a massive reply trying to tick off all of your points, but it is easier to just ask you to have a look back at your class photos. How many children were in your class while you were at school? You seem to have come out as a reasonably intelligent individual so I would be interested to know.

      I can tell you my class sizes varied from between 29 and 34 through my Form 1 to Form 4 years (then optional classes became available so it is hard to find those sizes), and I managed okay, so what is wrong with a policy for averaging class sizes at 27.5?

      What I am saying is they shouldn’t be doing this without making sure there are funds available so teachers are able to continue to upskill themselves, and make sure that we keep the childrens learning in mind along with the cost, this is where I believe Hekia has got it wrong.

      It is obviously a topic which you feel very strongly about, but have you let emotion over-ride reason in your argument? International studies and results which I have linked to above (in reply to Draco) may help you see my reasoning (at least a bit).

      • North 21.2.1
        7 June 2012 at 1:13 am

        So we have the international studies chestnut do we ? Laboratory tests have proved….. blah blah blah blah.

        You know that your “international tests” are hotly contested so you have no right to talk in absolute terms there. Remembering that the sole individual they rely upon was of the view that National Standards would set back NZ education by 50 years.

        What I am particularly concerned about is that without any foundation whatever, and as though it is a given, you leap into attack on the providers, the practitioners, the teachers.

        That is as dishonest out of your mouth as it is out of the mouth of John Key’s When it Suits Her Maori Princess Parata.

        • Bob 21.2.1.1
          7 June 2012 at 3:11 am

          Okay, so forget the International studies for a moment and go back to the original question, how many children were in your class while you were at school?

          And again, I haven’t attacked our teachers, I am simply wanting them to have resources available to upskill themselves, no-one is perfect, so you cannot tell me that offering teachers resources to help them is a bad thing!

          • lprent 21.2.1.1.1
            7 June 2012 at 7:51 am

            Usually between 35 and 45 in primary and intermediate. Between 34 and 39 in secondary. Of course I started school in 1964 in the midst of a explosion of kids in a rapidly xpanding city.

            There were enough kids for any one to be largely invisible to teachers. Which is why I suspect that I was aceing IQ tests and regarded by teachers as highly unlikely to pass exams. They didn’t have time to find out that I was simply ignoring them as rather boring talking heads while perusing my own learning.

            Many degrees later….

            But I found that class sizes of 25 and down, I actually had to pay attention. Unfortunately they didn’t show up until 7th form

          • Draco T Bastard 21.2.1.1.2
            7 June 2012 at 1:02 pm

            What’s the failed system of yesteryear got to do with anything? Our children today learn more because of better systems and more teachers.

  22. North 22
    7 June 2012 at 1:00 am

    As a commanding assertion, utter nonsense Bobby…….and where do you come from selectively quoting a particular point of view as proof, “proof” you know is seriously contested ?

    And Shanghai for God’s Sake………might I not reaonably think there’s a world of difference between a Shanghai classroom (and we only have your word for its brilliance) and a New Zealand classroom. You’re very stupid, in the exact sense, like “in stupour”.

    And where’s your evidence to prove NZ teachers are of low quality and how do you establish the fact of teachers as “bad eggs” – or “heki pirau” – “rotten egg” – the latter being what up here in the North they call Princess Parata. Heki pirau, potato (brown on the outside white on the inside), kupapa. Idiot is reseved for you.

    Kia Ora strange one – he/he who buys the bullshit then complains about the stench of it.

  23. xtasy 23
    7 June 2012 at 1:14 am

    North: “Heki pirau, potato (brown on the outside white on the inside), kupapa. Idiot is reseved for you.”

    Kiore, I would add in a fitting addition.

    • North 23.1
      7 June 2012 at 1:52 am

      Yeah ………he kiore right up John Key’s trouser leg.

      He Kia…….He Kiore……..He Kia………He Kiore.

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