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Curiosity – 5:30pm

Written By: - Date published: 3:40 pm, August 6th, 2012 - 106 comments
Categories: International, science - Tags: , , ,

At around 5:30pm this evening Curiosity will either touch down safely on Mars, or make (another) expensive smudge on the surface. Various links below – tune in. Good luck Curiosity…

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/participate/

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/msl/index.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/08/120805-nasa-tv-mars-landing-rover-curiosity-science-how-watch-see/

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/370520/20120805/nasa-mars-landing-curiosity-live-stream-watch.htm

106 comments on “Curiosity – 5:30pm”

  1. Draco T Bastard 1

    I find it good that enthusiasm for space exploration seems to be increasing again after the doldrums it’s been in for the last couple of decades.

    Or it’s that the MSM are feeding us this to cover the lack of news coverage that they actually do.

  2. Kotahi Tāne Huna 2

    A “sky crane”????

    Top marks for imagination.

    • r0b 2.1

      It’s a clever idea. Even cleverer if it works.

      • lprent 2.1.1

        Yeah – half a million lines of code for the landing sequence running on electronics and hardware that has been frozen and then carefully warmed up in circumstances that’d be nigh well impossible to reproduce in test scenarios. Ummm….

        Mind you if it all works, then it will be a stunning achievement. Probably far more than most people will realize…

        • r0b 2.1.1.1

          I really feel for the programmers and mission controllers. One shot, impossible to test, all the blame if it fails, no attention if it succeeds.

          Ahh but if it does succeed, how cool is that!

          • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.1.1

            In our cold uncaring quantum universe this type of project does cheer one up. One of the few reasons for having a long life, to see how some of it turns out. Peter Higgs would have been grinning for days.

          • Pascal's bookie 2.1.1.1.2

            And waiting 14 minutes, which is an astoundingly short time really, but Laaaaaaagg.

          • lprent 2.1.1.1.3

            Was kind of amusing watching the various teams looking VERY relieved as their part of the sequence worked.

            That was pretty damn amazing. I was somewhat freaked this morning reviewing the landing sequence…

  3. Awesome.

    I nearly cried during the live stream from CERN when the Higgs was announced so if this succeeds I am imagine I’ll get weepy…..yes, I am a real science geek. 

  4. King Kong 4

    I for one am against this.

    It is just a thinly disguised right wing imperial plot.

    Peacefull science mission today then heavilly armed at-at walkers decimating the locals tommorow.

    This is the thin end of the wedge I tell you.

  5. shorts 5

    as an unemployed father of four – where does one sign up for work on an at-at walker?

  6. joe90 6

    I’m watching the NASA stream.

    http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/ustream.html?curiosity

    And a metafilter post with a bucket load of links relevant to Curiosity.

    http://www.metafilter.com/118584/Oh-man-look-at-those-cavemen-go

  7. Pascal's bookie 8

    Go the parachute.

  8. joe90 9

    http://twitter.com/MarsCuriosity

    Parachute deployed! Velocity 900 mph. Altitude 7 miles. 4 minutes to Mars!

  9. Pascal's bookie 11

    Touchdown confirmed. Continuuing to recieve telemetry. You magnificent bastards.

  10. Colonial Viper 12

    Wow a few peeps in that control room seemed pretty happy 😀

  11. Colonial Viper 13

    Its at moments like this you remember why the USA has been such a magnificent, great nation.

    • Tiger Mountain 13.1

      Ahem, and so was the USSR. Space is now another corporate opportunity. But great to be able to view this event regardless.

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.1

        NB Russia can still send men into orbit, the USA has lost that ability 😉

    • Te Reo Putake 13.2

      Yep, it’s a triumph of their free enterprise system, fer sure. Oh, wait … 😉
       
      Loved the old hippy looking dude, I think he only took the gig at NASA coz the Dead stopped touring.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.3

      We could do the same thing if we decided to invest in researching and producing stuff rather than concentrating on farming, house speculation and capital gains.

    • muzza 13.4

      Get some cold water on those hard ons fellas eh…

  12. It’s amazing what the Human imagination is capable of! Faaaan-bloody-tastic!! (played Jeff Wayne’s “War of the Worlds”)

    Now if only we can do something equally imaginative back home. with all our problems…

    Left our good wishes on the JPL Facebook site. http://www.facebook.com/NASAJPL

  13. bad12 17

    Yeah that a good one from Nasa, space the final frontier and all that, a total facination, some primitive echo from deep within me likens it to going home,

    And for the next amazing trick?, How bout tests show that there is liquid H2O in the Martian soil, the chemical composition of the soil and atmosphere is a known and thus the same conditions can be recreated as a sealed enviroment back here to test what plant life will grow in such conditions,

    Next machine down to the Mars surface an automated seed drill complete with seeds???…

  14. lostinsuburbia 18

    I understand that NASA’s next mission is to send a probe to the National Party headquarters to see if they can find intelligent life….

    • bad12 18.1

      Cross the fingers it aint old Lizard Eyes Nick Smith that gets the honor of probing, it’s a given that if that happened the result would be a finding of only primitive amoeba having been discovered…

    • prism 18.2

      lis 18
      😀

  15. weka 19

    At the risk of becoming a pariah here, how do you all reconcile this with the looming energy, climate, economic and environmental crises?

    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      You appreciate it all the more because we’re not going to be able to do much more than this, for much longer.

      By the way, the US Viking Program put a lander on Mars in 1976. You might notice that 35 years later, they’ve just achieved essentially the same thing, albeit with more up to date technology and a wider mission.

      • weka 19.1.1

        You appreciate it all the more because we’re not going to be able to do much more than this, for much longer.
         

        Understandable.

    • Draco T Bastard 19.2

      how do you all reconcile this with the looming [1] energy, [2] climate, [3] economic and [4] environmental crises?

      Easy:
      1.) Space program doesn’t use that much energy. Effective power down will save far more (of course, we’re not actually doing that yet but I’m sure we’ll get around to it).
      2.) While the initial launch would have produced some pollution most of it would have been water.
      3.) We’re not actually having an economic crisis yet – we’re having a financial crisis.
      4.) This is a bit more of a concern considering the destructive mining techniques used to get the resources to actually build the spaceship.

      • weka 19.2.1

        1) did you include all energy costs eg manufacture, running costs of infrastructure etc?
         
        2) again, any cc related pollution audit would need to take into account total outputs, not just launch.
         
        3) point taken but I did say ‘looming’
         
        4) I was more thinking of the money/time/energy/scientific development being better spent elsewhere.

        • Draco T Bastard 19.2.1.1

          1.) Most of the infrastructure is in place and mostly used for other stuff. The space program would be a small diversion of that existing energy use.
          2.) See 1.)
          3.) I’m reasonably certain that even after the economic crisis hits we’ll still be able to afford a space program.
          4.) You may not have noticed but a hell of a lot of information about the climate comes from NASA. In fact, if it wasn’t for the space program we probably wouldn’t know as much as we do. A ‘space program’ covers a hell of a lot more than just a few space ships which is why I think we (NZ) need one with at least $1b/year government funding.

          • TheContrarian 19.2.1.1.1

            “You may not have noticed but a hell of a lot of information about the climate comes from NASA. In fact, if it wasn’t for the space program we probably wouldn’t know as much as we do. A ‘space program’ covers a hell of a lot more than just a few space ships which is why I think we (NZ) need one with at least $1b/year government funding.”

            This one rover mission cost over 3b NZD. Plus we have to build it, train people, house everyone, feed everyone, educate everyone, mine everything, provide everything for everyone from our own resources (this is of course what Draco has suggested NZ should do)

            You can’t have it all, Draco.

            • McFlock 19.2.1.1.1.1

              True.
              Let’s regulate the finance companies better so they don’t have to be bailed out. That’d sort us for most of the costs.
              Increase income tax levels to be more in line with Aus, an FTT and a CGT would fund the needed social services expenditure.
                   
              Hell, we can have it all – except for growing inequality and financial traders who have minimal oversight. Those we will have to drop, sadly. 

            • Draco T Bastard 19.2.1.1.1.2

              This one rover mission cost over 3b NZD.

              And took how many years to develop?

              You can’t have it all

              Yes, actually, we can. We presently produce more food than we can eat using a small fraction of the population. Same goes for housing, training and mining. Thing is, if we actually limited our economy to provide only that which we need as far as those essentials go we could actually have a hell of a lot more than we do now as we wouldn’t be wasting so much of our economy producing cheap food to buy expensive toys. Back 30 years ago when we actually had a major manufacturing sector the service sector made up only about 5% to 10% of the economy, now it makes up about 30% which really is a huge waste of resources. Do more stuff, be richer and all we have to do is sacrifice McDs. I think we can live with that.

              • weka

                We presently produce more food than we can eat using a small fraction of the population.
                 

                But only because we’re strip mining the fertility from the soil that was built up over millennia. It ain’t going to last. Wanting to run a space program when we are likely to struggle to feed ourselves some time this century is a very strange idea. But even if that weren’t true, there are still better things to spend our money/time/energy on.
                 
                 

                • Weka, I think you may find that the space programme spends only a fraction on the most colossal waste of time, money, and energy in human history; the arms trade.

                  At least with the space programme, we’re furthering the boundaries of our collective knowledge.

                  With the arms trade, we’re creating novel ways to slaughter each other.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  But only because we’re strip mining the fertility from the soil that was built up over millennia.

                  There’s a solution to that, one that’s been known for centuries:

                  1.) Only produce enough food for us so we’re no longer strip mining the nutrients
                  2.) Once we’ve finished with the produce we treat it and then return it to the soil using suitable field rotation so that the earth can fully reintegrate the nutrients (no more need of artificial fertilisers)
                  3.) Make sure our population never goes above what the land can support

                  Throw in renewable power generation to run the electric tractors and we still only use a small fraction of the population to feed ourselves. Besides, farming has always resulted in lots of people with nothing to do. It’s how civilisation developed, how the sciences came to be understood etc etc so even if we were back to the same productivity that the Romans had 2000 years ago (which isn’t going to happen) we’d still be able to support a space program.

                  But even if that weren’t true, there are still better things to spend our money/time/energy on.

                  You let people work where their interests lie and some people are going to want to do space. Probably several thousand in fact.

                  • weka

                    “There’s a solution to that, one that’s been known for centuries:”
                     
                    But not one that’s practiced on land that’s already been stripped mined (and they didn’t use electric tractors, for very good reasons). I understand what sustainable agriculture is, and I agree that stopping exporting food is crucial whatever we do next.
                     
                    However, see if you can produce one reputable source that shows NZ’s capacity to produce food sustainably, what the population would be, and how we would manage all our other needs within an acceptable footprint. AFAIK that work hasn’t been done yet.
                     

                    You let people work where their interests lie and some people are going to want to do space.
                     

                    At the moment, many want to make shit loads of money from growing and exporting industrial milk. Many also want to eat at McDs.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Unfortunately, the country can’t and won’t stop exporting food unless we want to cease buying items and energy from overseas.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      AFAIK that work hasn’t been done yet.

                      No it hasn’t and so it needs to be done. The fact that it hasn’t been done isn’t an argument against the basic premise.

                      At the moment, many want to make shit loads of money from growing and exporting industrial milk.

                      So? Regulation prevents over use of the land meaning that they can’t no matter how much they want to.

                      Many also want to eat at McDs.

                      But nobody wants to work there.

                      @Colonial Viper

                      Unfortunately, the country can’t and won’t stop exporting food unless we want to cease buying items and energy from overseas.

                      We’d need a transition period but the sooner we start it the sooner we finish it.

                    • weka

                      No it hasn’t and so it needs to be done. The fact that it hasn’t been done isn’t an argument against the basic premise.
                       

                      Er, yes it is. What you are proposing isn’t possible given peak oil, economics, the size of our population relative to land, the state of our agricultural sector and the fact that most of the population will have a very hard time getting its head around giving up their flat screen TVs (amongst many other things).
                      If we’re lucky we might successfully transition to a low energy society. Transitioning to sustainable food production will take time, and then we won’t have cheap oil to build the wind farms to power the electric tractors, let alone build spaceships.
                       

                      At the moment, many want to make shit loads of money from growing and exporting industrial milk.

                      So? Regulation prevents over use of the land meaning that they can’t no matter how much they want to.
                       

                      Right, but in this brave new world where people have accepted sustainability as a baseline, they’re willing to let the last of our precious metal resources be sent into space? Resources that will be needed by generations to come? I don’t think so.

                      Sorry, but none of this stacks up, not the economics, the resources, or the politics.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And at the fundamentals, it’s actually the psychology which doesn’t stack up. The psyche of the modern, growth expecting, convenience seeking consumer is (very) badly adapted cope with what needs to be done over the next 20 years.

                    • weka

                      Yep.
                       

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      @CV
                      Well then, we need to change the psychological make up of society. We do that all the time.

                      @weka

                      Er, yes it is.

                      No it’s not.

                      What you are proposing isn’t possible given peak oil, economics, the size of our population relative to land, the state of our agricultural sector and the fact that most of the population will have a very hard time getting its head around giving up their flat screen TVs (amongst many other things).

                      Don’t need oil, economics is the distribution of scarce resources not the movement of money and we have the resources and agriculture needs to decline so as to protect the environment. Won’t be giving up flat screen TVs. They may not have two or more to a house but we can still have them. As I’ve been saying, we have the resources and the knowledge needed to make our own. Such knowledge also goes towards the space program. In fact, if it hadn’t been for the US space program we probably wouldn’t have them today.

                      Transitioning to sustainable food production will take time, and then we won’t have cheap oil to build the wind farms to power the electric tractors, let alone build spaceships.

                      Don’t need oil to do that. Sure, makes it easier but we don’t need it.

                      …they’re willing to let the last of our precious metal resources be sent into space?

                      Two things:
                      1.) We won’t be. Even at present rates of consumption it’s going to be centuries before we (NZ) even start look at running our metal resources dry. The biggest problem will be mining them without oil but there are ways around that to.
                      2.) There’s resources in space that we can start bringing back which don’t come with all that environmental damage that comes with mining on Earth.

                    • “They may not have two or more to a house but we can still have them. As I’ve been saying, we have the resources and the knowledge needed to make our own. Such knowledge also goes towards the space program. ”

                      Quite frankly that is delusional. Some of the materials involved, the precious metals, do not exist in NZ or, if the do, need to be extracted in such a manner as to strip mine large chunks of land for very small, an economical, amounts.

                      This has been pointed out to you several times.

                      “There’s resources in space that we can start bringing back which don’t come with all that environmental damage that comes with mining on Earth.”

                      We are decades away from that.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      This has been pointed out to you several times.

                      Really? I haven’t seen them so point them out to me.

                      BTW, I assume you mean rare earth metals rather than “precious metals”.

                      We are decades away from that.

                      So the earlier we start the better.

                    • Without trawling through the archives Draco you’ll remember the discussion you have with higherstandard (I believe it was) and myself about the manufacturing of surgical equipment in New Zealand. And I have also discussed with you the feasibility of this also re: New Zealand having little in the way of radioactive materials. Don’t play dumb.

                      “There’s resources in space that we can start bringing back which don’t come with all that environmental damage that comes with mining on Earth.”

                      We are decades away and no matter how soon we start we are still going to have to find our own rare metals first and construct, test and more than likely lose many probes before getting it right. Metals NZ doesn’t have without significant investment in mining

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Oh, that short spiel where I proved you wrong by linking to the official geo-data. Got it. IIRC, I even said that I supported building a research reactor for the medical supplies.

                      Metals NZ doesn’t have without significant investment in mining

                      And I’ve even said that I supported such mining. My biggest problem with most mining plans in NZ is that it ends up without NZ actually benefiting from it due to:
                      1.) It’s usually done by an offshore company that has the mining rights
                      2.) Which then sells the produce offshore for a huge profit usually in its raw format (little or no processing is actually done here)
                      3.) That huge profit is then also shipped offshore except for the minimal royalties we demand
                      4.) We then have to buy back the products produced from those resources at higher prices than what it would have cost to make them here

                      Private companies should not be benefiting from our resources (much better for us if the government did the mining) and raw resources should not be exported at all.

              • Indeed, Draco.

                On top of that, when we had our own manufacturing sector, we had low unemployment and few people on unemployment welfare.

                Now we have cheap showes from China – and a whopping huge social welfare bill with it. No wonder we can’t afford free tertiary education any more.

                So those “cheap” chinese shoes ain’t so cheap after all.

                Interestingly, Bernard Hickey said something about our non-productive service sector a few months back, He stated that having thousands of people working in service, retail, and other similar sectors was a drag on the economy because it wasn’t supporting a productive export sector…

              • bad12

                No please No, anything but macca’s, take Pizza-sh*t and Kentucky-turd, but please oh please leave us with our Macca’s…

  16. Kotahi Tāne Huna 20

    Yay! Amazing. Fantastic. Something for humans to be proud of.

  17. Adele 22

    Frankly, I am hoping that if there are Martians, they will tell humanity to keep the fuck off their planet.

    Until we learn to look after our own we should not be going anywhere near another planet.

  18. prism 23

    The graphic looks like parts of Blenheim in the dry summer. Why not spend the money frittered away on ‘nice to have’ science for rich kids and spend the money supplying watering systems that conserve water to poor countries? We don’t want to end up looking like Mars.

    The Sahara and such is similar with sand rolling ever on to make a good photo op of a dry area with great images of shadow and sand troughs and lines of people and camels in lonely stark isolation that’s almost as hostile as Mars.

    • joe90 23.1

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jul/12/senegal-great-green-wall

      Senegal is one of 11 countries in the Sahel region of Africa looking towards the same solution to the desertification problem: The Great Green Wall. The goal of the project is to plant a wall of trees, 4,300 miles long and 9 miles wide, across the African continent, from Senegal to Djibouti. African leaders hope the trees will trap the sands of the Sahara and halt the advance of the desert.

      P

    • weka 23.2

      That photo made me wince, because it’s similarity to places we’ve created 🙁 Glad the irony wasn’t lost on quite everyone prism.

    • Draco T Bastard 23.3

      Those poor countries are probably quite rich and are certainly quite capable of administering their own resources. Sure, help them with the knowledge they need to do that administration better but, other than that, leave them to it.

      • weka 23.3.1

        I think NZ has already demonstrated that its not capable of administering its own resources.

        • Colonial Viper 23.3.1.1

          Partly disagree here. NZ was one of the first jurisdictions in the world to electrify. We did extremely well with our natural resources and infrastructure planning between the 1930’s and the 1960’s. (Much credit goes to the MoW and its forerunners which like idiots we broke up and sold off to the private sector).

          During WWII our vertically integrated rail systems kept the country running. The railways ran coal mines, forests, foundries, design offices and engineering workshops, virtually everything it needed to keep going, under its own control and co-ordination.

          Muldoon showed some vision on the transport and energy side of the equation, too.

          We were once a powerful nation in our own right.

        • Draco T Bastard 23.3.1.2

          We can but not under free-market capitalism. Free-market capitalism actually makes it impossible to manage the economy.

  19. joe90 24

    Just four more years until Juno arrives.

    • prism 24.1

      Juno – great technology, great expenditure. Poor people and infrastructure on earth for non-scientists and non-technocrats. Squillions spent on technology – thousands spent on humans and caring for our environment.

      And technology’s use – the drone planes – robot murderers from the sky, the stealth plane a black Darth Vader so expensive, to spy undetected. Some good things in the mix, but what a brew.

      A constant turning away from people, soft objects – to technology producing hard objects. Really an art installation of man’s death wish. No wonder that women and babies have to struggle for consideration and respect in this world.

  20. Richard Christie 25

    Awesome, NASA rocks,
    A shame William Pickering is no longer here to enjoy the Jet Propulsion Lab’s continuing triumphs.

  21. Carol 26

    The space beyond earth, is an imaginary space for humans to exercise their mental exploration of what might have been, and what might be in the future.

    I enjoy space fiction – it is a fertile site for the imagination to roam, especially when it is visualised on screen with accompanying sound effects.

    I rarely get excited by actual space exploration – I think it’s appeal to many is via imagination, but, for me, fiction does it better.

    It’ll be interesting if something is learned about the existence of life in the universe. But I still can’t get that excited about so much effort (and resources) for relatively limited gain.

    • lprent 26.1

      I’m far more interested in the geology than I am in the search for life. While I suspect that Mars did in fact have life from several billion years or more ago, I also suspect that its traces are going to be pretty hard to locate from the current surface.

      Like most of the early life (and the vast majority of current life) on earth most of the biomatter would have been and maybe still is well underground and away from the rather toxic environment on the surface.

      However the geology of the planet surface that hasn’t had the massive amount of rework that earth’s surface has had will in all liklihood reveal a lot about things that we simply can’t see on earth, but which are important to us now. In particular the interactions between atmosphere and rock are going to be massively easier to see on mars than they are on earth

  22. sophie 27

    Hope there are no cats on Mars.

  23. TT 28

    … meanwhile, as the USA spends billions on the pissing contest known as the space race, millions starve here on earth. Priorities?

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 28.1

      If it were a case of “either the space race or an end to starvation” you’d have a point, but it isn’t. The fact is that historically, there has been enough food to go around. It wasn’t NASA preventing it reaching the mouths that needed it, it was politics and war.

      NASA employees are also at the cutting edge of Climatology, which warns of the threat of genuine (as opposed to politically driven) future food shortages.

      We could all learn something from NASA’s priorities.

      • weka 28.1.1

        Climate isn’t really the issue though either. Humans can grow food in a wide range of climates. The problem is whether we can grow food sustainably and without cheap oil. In that sense the criticism of space exploration stands. We are wasting much, including critical time, by pursuing mars instead of looking at crucial issues like loss of soil.
         
        Is there a reason why NASA can’t study climate without going into space?
         

        • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1.1

          Yes, they need the satellites and being able to study the Martian climate helps to understand ours.

          • weka 28.1.1.1.1

            But it’s not necessary to go to Mars to understand our own climate.

            • Kotahi Tāne Huna 28.1.1.1.1.1

              Perhaps not, but it is inspiring, and will yield unexpected knowledge, and both of those things are “necessary”.

            • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1.1.1.2

              But it is necessary to go into space and so, while we’re there, we may as well go to Mars and get the extra data.

              • prism

                DTB
                Jokey Hen can use that argument. It is necessary for me to travel to Hawaii and while I’m in that part of the world I can look around and research and find out what’s going on under the surface and bring this life-giving knowledge back to NZ to aid us all. What a sweet excuse that sounds.

        • Kotahi Tāne Huna 28.1.1.2

          “Humans can grow food in a wide range of climates.”

          A true statement. No-one has yet worked out how to get high crop yields from deserts.

          • weka 28.1.1.2.1

            We don’t need high yield crops, unless we want to run food production as commodities through a capitalist model. What we need is produce food that people eat and sustains them, and that can be done in a desert. Humans have been living in deserts for a very long time.
             
             
             

            • Kotahi Tāne Huna 28.1.1.2.1.1

              Well sure, apart from the fact that this scenario involves mass starvation before the new equilibrium is reached. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

              • weka

                You seem to think we have a choice about that. Which is ironic, given I am the one arguing for better use of the resources we have eg improving food security rather than doing space exploration.
                 
                The way we feed the world now is unsustainable. Even if peak oil weren’t in the picture we would be facing some serious problems from the loss of topsoil which is a direct result of modern farming practices (other cultures have lost arable land through farming practices too but they tend to do it over a much long time period and with less population pressure). We can’t keep doing what we are doing and increase population and go to space. 
                 
                We have a window of opportunity here, one that is rapidly shrinking. I understand the excitement and inspiration people feel about the mars landing. I just don’t see how that stacks up against the future we are facing. Yes we need inspiration, but only crazy people value that over survival needs.
                 
                http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/feb/14/science.environment
                 
                Note the date on that article. It’s not like we haven’t been warned.

                • Kotahi Tāne Huna

                  I am under no illusions about “choice”. I think the “window of opportunity” has closed. Adaptation is now far more important than mitigation, and with that in mind, NASA will have a very important role to play.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Which is ironic, given I am the one arguing for better use of the resources we have eg improving food security rather than doing space exploration.

                  The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Farming allows the population to be fed at a sustainable level using only a small fraction of the population which leaves people and resources available to do other things such as space exploration.

                  The big problem with food security is over population and increasing food production actually increases the over population. This is why it’s important that we find out just what the carrying capacity of the Earth and individual nations is and then communicate that to the individuals that make up those nations with the information about how to limit population growth (contraception, abortion etc). But even doing that would still leave enough resources to support a space program.

                  • prism

                    DTB
                    Space program – an expensive way for men to get far away from mundane tasks of being with family, doing the dishes and mowing the lawn.

            • prism 28.1.1.2.1.2

              weka
              I guess you have come across these names that have stayed in my memory as inspiring and achieving people in environmental matters.
              – Richard St Barbe Baker is a name to think of and here is link of one project – http://www.menofthetrees.com.au/
              In his retirement he lived in NZ till his death I think.

              Also – Wendy Campbell-Purdie is a name that should be known.
              http://www.primitivism.com/tree-of-life.htm
              She worked on the fringe of a desert planting trees that could handle the conditions and were strong growers and then crops under the shade of their canopies so there was less evaporation. She was very successful to get a working system established in a male-oriented area and rather corrupt political system.

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  • Government must review state sector retirement investment
    The State Sector Retirement Savings Scheme has no business investing in companies which manufacture cluster bombs, anti-personnel mines and nuclear weapons, Labour MP and Parliamentarians for Global Action executive member Su’a William Sio says. “I endorse the call made by the ...
    3 hours ago
  • Councils shouldn’t rush into Easter Trading
    City and district councils must ensure they don’t rush into trading on Easter Sunday ahead of local body elections next month, Labour’s Pacific Islands Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio says. “This decision must be taken seriously and only after extensive ...
    3 hours ago
  • Minister can’t wash hands of illegal KiwiSaver investments
    The Minister responsible for appointing default KiwiSaver providers should take responsibility for ensuring they act legally, Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson says. “The National Government has now had confirmed what they were told more than a week ago – that ...
    6 hours ago
  • Government railroading Maori Land Bill through
    Maori Development Minister Te Ururoa Flavell seems determined to railroad his Te Ture Whenua Maori Bill through despite the large number of submitters in opposition to the bill, says MP Meka Whaitiri, whose Ikaroa-Rāwhiti electorate contains nearly 30 per cent ...
    1 day ago
  • Government turns a blind eye to struggling sole parents
    Social Development Minister Anne Tolley’s claims that her Government’s work with sole parents is her biggest success are in tatters after a major increase in homelessness amongst that group, says Labour’s Social Development spokesperson Carmel Sepuloni. “Anne Tolley is seriously ...
    1 day ago
  • Time has come for state apology on abuse
    Labour is today calling on the Government to issue an apology for historic abuse in state institutions. Speaking after the launch of Elizabeth Stanley’s book “The Road to Hell; state violence against Children in Post-war New Zealand”, Labour’s Justice spokesperson ...
    1 day ago
  • It’s OK to have a few slaves, just not too many? Minimum wage loophole hasn’t gone away
    New Zealand still needs legislation to ensure adult New Zealanders are not exploited by being taken on as contractors for less than the equivalent of the minimum wage, says Labour list MP David Parker.  “My Minimum Wage (Contractor Remuneration) Amendment ...
    1 day ago
  • Lessons from the Future of Work Commission: Building Wealth from the Ground Up
    Good morning, and thank you for attending today’s Future of Work Seminar here in Wellington. I want to particularly acknowledge Beth Houston who has spent many hours pulling together the programme for today’s event, and to Olivier and the staff ...
    1 day ago
  • Backbencher Matt’s Bill is a Doocey
    The latest National Member’s Bill pulled from the ballot is yet another waste of Parliament’s time and shows the Government’s contempt for the House and the public with much more important issues needing debate, says Labour’s Shadow Leader of the ...
    2 days ago
  • Gun laws creaking under the strain
     Questions have to be asked  after surprising revelations at the Law and Order Select Committee about the police and their ability to manage the gun problem in New Zealand, says Labour’s Police spokesperson Stuart Nash.  “The lack of resources is ...
    2 days ago
  • Most homeless are working poor – Otago Uni
    The finding by Otago University researcher Dr Kate Amore that most homeless people are in work or study is one of the most shocking aspects of the housing crisis, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. “Social service agencies report many ...
    2 days ago
  • Māori seats entrenched by Tirikatene Bill
    National and the Māori Party need to support my member’s Bill which is designed to entrench the Māori electorate seats in Parliament, Labour’s Te Tai Tonga MP Rino Tirikatene says. “Under the Electoral Act the provisions establishing the general electorates ...
    2 days ago
  • Trade dumping bill could hurt NZ industries
    The Commerce Select Committee is currently hearing submissions on the Trade (Anti-dumping and Countervailing Duties) Amendment Bill. This bill worries me. I flagged some major concerns during its first reading.   I am now reading submissions from NZ Steel, ...
    GreensBy Mojo Mathers
    3 days ago
  • Just 8 per cent of work visas for skills shortages
    Just 16,000 – or 8 per cent – of the 209,000 work visas issued last year were for occupations for which there is an identified skills shortage, says Labour Immigration spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway. “The overwhelming majority of the record number ...
    3 days ago
  • Hard won agreement shouldn’t be thrown away
    The Government should ignore talk across the Tasman about doing away with the labelling of GM free products, says Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King. “Labelling of genetically modified products was a hard won agreement in 2001 by Australian and the ...
    3 days ago
  • National’s privatisation Trojan horse
     The National government is using the need to modernise the school system as a Trojan horse for privatisation and an end to free public education as we know it, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says.  “There is no doubt that ...
    3 days ago
  • Shameless land-banking ads show need for crackdown
    The fact that more than 300 sections are shamelessly being advertised on Trade Me as land-banking opportunities during a housing crisis shows the need for a crackdown on property speculators, Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little says. “Of the 328 ...
    3 days ago
  • Standard and Poor’s warning of housing crisis impact on banks
    The National Government’s failure to address the housing crisis is leading to dire warnings from ratings agency Standard and Poor’s about the impact on the strength of the economy and New Zealand banks, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Standard ...
    3 days ago
  • Ihumatao needs action not sympathy
    The Petition of Save Our Unique Landscape (SOUL) calling on Parliament to revoke Special Housing Area 62 in order to protect the Ihumatao Peninsula and Stonefields, has fallen on deaf ears, says the Labour MP for Mangere Su’a William Sio.  ...
    3 days ago
  • Student visa fraud & exploitation must stop
    The Government must act immediately to end fraud and exploitation of international students that threatens to damage New Zealand’s reputation, Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little says. ...
    4 days ago
  • Government needs to show leadership in reviewing monetary policy
    The Reserve Bank’s struggles to meet its inflation target, the rising exchange rate and the continued housing crisis shows current monetary policy needs to be reviewed - with amendments to the policy targets agreement a bare minimum, says Labour’s Finance ...
    4 days ago
  • Slash and burn of special education support
    Slashing the support for school age children with special needs is no way to fund earlier intervention, Labour’s Education Spokesperson Chris Hipkins says.  “National’s latest plan to slash funding for children with special needs over the age of 7 in ...
    5 days ago
  • National’s Pasifika MPs must have free vote
      Pacific people will not take kindly to the Government whipping their Pacific MPs to vote in favour of a  Bill that will allow Sunday trading  at Easter, says Labour’s Pacific Island Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio.  “We are seeing ...
    1 week ago
  • Maritime Crimes Bill – balancing security and free speech
    Parliament is currently considering the Maritime Crimes Amendment Bill, which would bring New Zealand up to date with current international rules about maritime security. The debate around the Bill reflects two valid issues: legitimate counter-terrorism measures and the right to ...
    GreensBy Kennedy Graham
    1 week ago
  • Teachers’ low wages at the centre of shortages
      Figures that show teachers’ wages have grown the slowest of all occupations is at the heart of the current teacher shortage, says Labour’s Education Spokesperson Chris Hipkins.  In the latest Labour Cost Index, education professionals saw their wages grow ...
    1 week ago
  • Government’s Tax Law undermines common law principles
    A tax amendment being snuck in under the radar allows changes to tax issues to be driven through by the Government without Parliamentary scrutiny, says Labour’s Revenue spokesman Stuart Nash. “The amendment allows any part of the Tax Administration Act ...
    1 week ago
  • Government slippery about caption funding
      The Government has refused to apologise for taking the credit for funding Olympic Games captioning when the National Foundation for the Deaf  was responsible, says Labour’s spokesperson on Disability Issues Poto Williams.  “This shameful act of grandstanding by Ministers ...
    1 week ago
  • Default KiwiSaver investments should be reviewed
    The investments of the default KiwiSaver providers should be reviewed to make sure they are in line with New Zealanders’ values and expectations, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Most New Zealanders would be appalled that their KiwiSaver funds are ...
    1 week ago
  • New ministry should look after all children
    The Government has today shunned well founded pleas by experts not to call its new agency the Ministry for Vulnerable Children, Labour’s Spokesperson for Children Jacinda Ardern says.  “Well respected organisations and individuals such as Children's Commissioner Judge Andrew Becroft ...
    1 week ago
  • Ratification okay but we need action
    Today’s decision to ratify the Paris agreement on Climate Change by the end of the year is all well and good but where is the plan, says Labour’s Climate Change spokesperson Megan Woods.  “The Government’s failure to plan is planning ...
    1 week ago
  • Stats changes can’t hide unemployment reality
    Today’s minor drop in unemployment numbers is nothing to celebrate given the changes made to the official numbers that cut thousands of people looking for work out of the jobless rate, says Labour’s Employment spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Making any comparisons ...
    1 week ago
  • Stats changes can’t hide unemployment reality
    Today’s minor drop in unemployment numbers is nothing to celebrate given the changes made to the official numbers that cut thousands of people looking for work out of the jobless rate, says Labour’s Employment spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Making any comparisons ...
    1 week ago
  • Auckland’s affordable homes plummet 72% under National
    Comprehensive new data from CoreLogic has found the number of homes in Auckland valued at under $600,000 has plummeted by 72 per cent since National took office, Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little says. “This data tracks the changes in ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Govt should face the facts not skew the facts
    National appears to be actively massaging official unemployment statistics by changing the measure for joblessness to exclude those looking online, says Labour’s Employment spokesperson Grant Robertson. “The Household Labour Force Survey, released tomorrow, no longer regards people job hunting on ...
    2 weeks ago
  • More voices call for review of immigration policy
    The Auckland Chamber of Commerce is the latest credible voice to call for a review of immigration and skills policy, leaving John Key increasingly isolated, says Opposition Leader Andrew Little. “The Prime Minister is rapidly becoming a man alone. He ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Better balance needed in Intelligence Bill
    Labour will support the NZ Intelligence and Security Bill to select committee so the issues can be debated nationwide and important amendments can be made, says Opposition Leader Andrew Little. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Serco circus has no place in NZ
    A High Court judgment proves National’s private prison agenda has failed and the Serco circus has no place in New Zealand correctional facilities, Labour’s Corrections spokesperson Kelvin Davis says. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • State house sell-off a kick in the guts for Tauranga’s homeless
    The Government’s sale of 1124 state houses in Tauranga won’t house a single extra homeless person in the city, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. “Tauranga, like the rest of New Zealand, has a crisis of housing affordability and homelessness. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Axing Auckland’s affordable quota disappointing
    Auckland Council has given away a useful tool for delivering more affordable housing by voting to accept the Independent Hearing Panel’s recommendation to abolish affordable quotas for new developments, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Ae Marika! Māori Party Oath Bill fails
    The Māori Party must reconsider its relationship with National after they failed to support Marama Fox’s Treaty of Waitangi Oath bill, Labour’s Maori Development Spokesperson Kelvin Davis says. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Police Minister all platitudes no detail
    The Police Minister must explain where the budget for new police officers is coming from after continuously obfuscating, Labour’s Police spokesperson Stuart Nash says. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Lost luggage law shows National’s lost the plot
    The Government has proven it can’t address the big issues facing the tourism industry by allowing a Members Bill on lost luggage to be a priority, Labour’s Tourism spokesman Kris Faafoi said. “Nuk Korako’s Bill drawn from the Members’ Ballot ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Hiding behind the law – but can’t say which law
    National is refusing to come clean on what caused the potential trade dispute with China by hiding behind laws and trade rules they can’t even name, says Labour’s Trade and Export Growth spokesperson David Clark. “National admitted today that an ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Work visas issued for jobs workless Kiwis want
    Thousands of work visas for low-skilled jobs were issued by the Government in the past year despite tens of thousands of unemployed Kiwis looking for work in those exact occupations, Labour’s Immigration spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway says. “A comparison of the ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Kiwis nationwide now paying for housing crisis
    The Government’s failure to tackle the housing crisis is now affecting the entire country with nationwide house price inflation in the past year hitting 26 per cent, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “None of National’s tinkering or half-baked, piecemeal ...
    2 weeks ago
  • OCR cut piles pressure on Government
    Today’s OCR cut must be backed by Government action on housing and economic growth, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Reserve Bank Governor Graeme Wheeler’s monetary policy statement underlines the limits of Bill English’s economic management. He says growth is ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Government must explain the McClay delay
    Todd McClay must explain why it took two months for him to properly inform the Prime Minister about China’s potential trade retaliation, says Labour’s Trade and Export Growth spokesperson David Clark. “This may be one of the most serious trade ...
    2 weeks ago
  • OCR cut would be vote of no confidence in economy
    If Reserve Bank Governor Graeme Wheeler cuts the OCR tomorrow it would show that, despite his loudly-voiced concerns about fuelling the housing market, the stuttering economy is now a bigger concern, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Bill English and ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Leading medical experts back Healthy Homes Bill
    Leading medical experts have today thrown their weight behind my Healthy Homes Guarantee Bill, saying it will improve the health of Kiwi kids, Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little says. “The Bill sets minimum standards for heating, insulation and ventilation ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Minister, it’s time to listen to the Auditor General
    Minister of Health Jonathan Coleman needs to listen to the independent advice of the Auditor General and review the capital charge system imposed on District Health Boards, says Labour’ Health Spokesperson Annette King.  “The capital charge on DHBs has been ...
    2 weeks ago

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