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Don’t Wring Your Hands.

Written By: - Date published: 4:17 pm, November 5th, 2013 - 282 comments
Categories: child abuse, crime, culture, sexism - Tags: , ,

The attitudes put on display by the young men calling themselves the ‘Roast Busters’ aren’t a glitch or the product of some unsavoury sub-culture. Those young men and the attitudes they hold are the product of  very long and complex processes whereby some very fucked up shit has become normalised.

Here’s the bottom line – patriarchy is about power. And all systems of power include multiple and sometimes overlapping components that encourage the dehumanisation of those it seeks power over.

I don’t think those statements are controversial – though I daresay somebody else could have worded them better.

Anyway, by coincidence, I received a facebook post the other day about a study done at the University of Surreyin England. Part of the study involved taking statements from ‘Lad’s Mags’ and statements from convicted rapists and then asking people to identify the source of each statement.

Unsurprisingly – though tellingly – people couldn’t identify the source with any accuracy beyond that which you’d expect from chance. The fact that participants identified with some of the statements, well yeah… that’s a worry.

I’m not going to go into any longwinded analytical breakdown of either the study, ‘Lads Mags’,  patriarchy or rape culture. Instead, I’m simply going to suggest that the old maxim “We reap what we sow” should be expanded to include –  ‘and some of us get reaped by what’s been sown’…

The ‘Roast Busters’ episode is, I believe, indicative of a problem far, far deeper and more insidious than some supposedly fucked up young men,  inadequate police responses and inane mutterings of politicians. And as such it deserves a more thorough and ongoing response than the one that is likely to transpire.

Meanwhile, here are the statements given to the participants in the study.

1. There’s a certain way you can tell that a girl wants to have sex . . . The way they dress, they flaunt themselves.

2. Some girls walk around in short-shorts . . . showing their body off . . . It just starts a man thinking that if he gets something like that, what can he do with it?

3. A girl may like anal sex because it makes her feel incredibly naughty and she likes feeling like a dirty slut. If this is the case, you can try all sorts of humiliating acts to help live out her filthy fantasy.

4. Mascara running down the cheeks means they’ve just been crying, and it was probably your fault . . . but you can cheer up the miserable beauty with a bit of the old in and out.

5. What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.

6. Filthy talk can be such a turn on for a girl . . . no one wants to be shagged by a mouse . . . A few compliments won’t do any harm either . . . ‘I bet you want it from behind you dirty whore’ . . .

7. You know girls in general are all right. But some of them are bitches . . . The bitches are the type that . . . need to have it stuffed to them hard and heavy.

8. Escorts . . . they know exactly how to turn a man on. I’ve given up on girlfriends. They don’t know how to satisfy me, but escorts do.

9. You’ll find most girls will be reluctant about going to bed with somebody or crawling in the back seat of a car . . . But you can usually seduce them, and they’ll do it willingly.

10. There’s nothing quite like a woman standing in the dock accused of murder in a sex game gone wrong . . . The possibility of murder does bring a certain frisson to the bedroom.

11. Girls ask for it by wearing these mini-skirts and hotpants . . . they’re just displaying their body . . . Whether they realise it or not they’re saying, ‘Hey, I’ve got a beautiful body, and it’s yours if you want it.’

12. You do not want to be caught red-handed . . . go and smash her on a park bench. That used to be my trick.

13. Some women are domineering, but I think it’s more or less the man who should put his foot down. The man is supposed to be the man. If he acts the man, the woman won’t be domineering.

14. I think if a law is passed, there should be a dress code . . . When girls dress in those short skirts and things like that, they’re just asking for it.

15. Girls love being tied up . . . it gives them the chance to be the helpless victim.

16. I think girls are like plasticine, if you warm them up you can do anything you want with them.

282 comments on “Don’t Wring Your Hands.”

  1. greywarbler 1

    Interesting Bill.
    The question is what do the girls think that boys think about those short skirts and so on. I have the feeling that girls are thinking about attracting male attention a lot of the time.
    It would tend to explain why they throw on their string shoulder tops in winter, as soon as the sun shines for half an hour. It will be freezing but they will be out with bare shoulders. I am covered and glad of it.

    And some boys seem to hear and see everything through a mindset that places sexual meaning over everything. It becomes difficult to have an ordinary conversation if they start sniggering at words that are about everyday mundane matters.

    I wonder what girls had to say about the questions, their answers, what they expected the answers of the boys would be and what they thought of the boys answers.

    • QoT 1.1

      I have the feeling that girls are thinking about attracting male attention a lot of the time.

      Ding ding ding rape culture.

      Funny, I never see anyone ponder if the dudes from the South Island who insisted on wearing shorts and t-shirts in the midst of winter at Victoria University were “thinking about attracting female attention a lot of the time”.

      • pillywog 1.1.1

        Probably were QoT.

        I have the feeling that men are thinking about how to attract sexual attention no matter what they’re wearing.

        Flattery feeds the ego.

  2. Tracey 2

    I keep thinking about the funding cut to that high school self defence programme that was proven to increase girls self confidence and likelihood to report inappropriate sexual behavior toward them.

  3. Tracey 3

    Greywarbler… that some girls tie their self esteem to lettibg boys f#$# them is a sure sign things have gone backwards since great strides made in 80s and 90s.

    but then we have had 20 years of villifying feminism and making assertive women seem unattractive and whinging from people that life has got unfair for white men…

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      Tracey. Several overseas research studies have shown that women have become relatively less happy and less satisfied over the last 40 or so years, not more happy and more satisfied.

      Whatever progress you think has or hasn’t happened, it’s not resulted in women reporting substantially more happiness and satisfaction in their lives.

      • McFlock 3.1.1

        Several overseas research studies have shown that the world is 6000 years old.

      • MeToo 3.1.2

        “Several overseas research studies have shown that women have become relatively less happy and less satisfied over the last 40 or so years, not more happy and more satisfied.”

        All feminism’s fault much?

      • weka 3.1.3

        “Several overseas research studies have shown that women have become relatively less happy and less satisfied over the last 40 or so years, not more happy and more satisfied.

        Whatever progress you think has or hasn’t happened, it’s not resulted in women reporting substantially more happiness and satisfaction in their lives.”

        Citation needed, and it better be bloody good.

        I’m not sure what your point was CV, esp in relation to Tracey’s comment. Perhaps you could clarify.

        • Tat Loo (CV) 3.1.3.1

          No probs weka. These are findings from the US General Social Survey, conducted since 1972.

          As you can imagine, a survey this massive generates a multitude of findings, (see the full report by Wharton Professors Betsy Stevenson and Justin Wolfers) but here are the two most important discoveries.

          First, since 1972, women’s overall level of happiness has dropped, both relative to where they were forty years ago, and relative to men. You find this drop in happiness in women regardless of whether they have kids, how many kids they have, how much money they make, how healthy they are, what job they hold, whether they are married, single or divorced, how old they are, or what race they are…

          The second discovery is, this: though women begin their lives more fulfilled than men, as they age, they gradually become less happy. Men, in contrast, get happier as they get older. (These findings are drawn from the work of Professors Richard Easterlin and Anke Plagnol, who took the same U.S. General Social Survey data and sliced it in a different way. You can find their working paper here).

          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus-buckingham/whats-happening-to-womens_b_289511.html

          • weka 3.1.3.1.1

            Ok, can you now say how that is relevant to what Tracey wrote, or Bill’s post?

            And then if it is relevant, how it relates to NZ women at this point in time?

            • Colonial Viper 3.1.3.1.1.1

              I was responding to Tracey’s comment

              but then we have had 20 years of villifying feminism and making assertive women seem unattractive and whinging from people that life has got unfair for white men…

              by saying, actually, its a much longer term trend than that, 40 years or longer. And that most (US) “white men” according to that survey aren’t actually “whinging” about changes, truth be told they actually seem quite happy thank you very much.

              And then if it is relevant, how it relates to NZ women at this point in time?

              This I have no idea.

              • weka

                Yeah, i don’t really see how it’s relevant to this conversation to be honest.

                There has been a backlash against feminism here (as other places). And I don’t discount the effect on the culture of that, irrespective of what some US research might say.

          • karol 3.1.3.1.2

            That fits with the changes since the 80s, written about and researched by some feminists. There’s the myth that everything has been achieved for women, and that they can “have it all”.

            Many women in their younger years seem to believe that. However, for many women the realities kick in with experience. It is especially true when women have children and find that, the pressures are enormous, while women are still left with most of the child care, and there are pressures/expectations to work to do paid work outside the home a well.

            The occupational and other infrastructures are still based in patriarchal values, while in recent decades women have been given more access to diverse roles within those structures.

            • Bill 3.1.3.1.2.1

              Maybe the constant chipping away and undermining of non-patriarchal values…of other cultural/political perspectives… that comes with the wall to wall elevation of ever reforming patriarchal norms has an increasingly detrimental effect on the well being of those who, rather than being a part of it, are in a position of being more or less simply subjected to it?

              • karol

                Bill, I found this particular explanation a bit confusing – though I think you explain it better in some of your comments below.

                Do you mean there’s a chipping away at patriarchal values, followed by counter-actions from the patriarchal types. The result being a constant re-forming of patriarchy, rather than any lasting change for a more woman-friendly culture?

                • Bill

                  No…I meant that patriarchy chips away at our humanity. And that it’s always being sustained (as much by the left as by the right)… being reinvented, reasserted or expressed in new ways according to the environments we create and that ‘allow’ for it. (Take Capitalism as an example. And then within that, the different ways it expresses through emerging and changing facets of capitalism or of the societies/polities captured by capitalism)

                  • karol

                    OK. Gottit, Bill.

                    Yes. It seemed like some changes were happening for the better (for the left and for women) in the 60s and 70s. But then the rise of “neoliberalism” saw a return of the objectification of women, in a new commodified form – supported by some aspects of “girl power”.

                    And women moved into the paid workforce in increasing numbers, with large numbers filling the low paid, part time and casual jobs that capitalism wanted to maintain profits. Meanwhile low paid women have still been expected to carry out more of the domestic duties in the home.

                    It’s soul-destroying.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Neoliberalism and corporate systems of profit are all designed to completely up-end, disrupt and devalue normal human relationship patterns and development. Everything which can possibly be privatised, commercially packaged, stripped or sold for a dollar, happens. People are treated as objects, machines, replaceable, mass produced, mass discarded, costs to be minimised or eliminated.

                      An inhuman society creates inhuman people.

                    • McFlock

                      cv- or, as Marx called it, “alienation”.

                      Although personally I don’t think it’s a design feature so much as a byproduct of the system but that’s just a quibble.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Not a silly man that Mr Marx.

                    • McFlock

                      well, I reckon his solutions were a bit off, and that hegelian dialiectic shizzle just looks like crystals and mungbeans to me, but he was probably the first (and one of the best) analysts to use exhaustively-collected data to thoroughly describe a systemic problem.

                      And so his description of the problem was and is still incredibly accurate, or even more accurate in the information age.

        • greywarbler 3.1.3.2

          They are likely to be overseas research findings about feminism, relationships between the s.xes. . Womens studies has been dropped by Auckland University. Plus other things about people. I think we in NZ are going to concentrate on joining a giant program to start a colony to Mars. Ordinary people and life on this planet is so yesterday.

    • greywarbler 3.2

      Tracey
      It’s sad to see things reverting. It takes constant effort it seems, ‘girls can do anything’ has gone by the wayside, working as a grease monkey at a garage is not the thing,. But applying fake eyelashes and looking like some momentary celebrity who lives with some sport jock who in a fit of spite pushes her down the stairs or at least slaps her around. Way to go girls. The ones who make ‘it’ probably devote a lot of their money to clothes and make-up. Haven’t been able to be join the Just-U Group yet.

      But listening to Radionz I hear some great scientists, journalists, etc so all is not lost. And of course coming on The Standard there are probably a majority of women taking the game forward.

  4. MeToo 4

    Roastbusters is part of the continuum of normalised Kiwi male behaviour that includes that ol’ favourite: lubricate women with alcohol because then they’re less likely to object to sex.

    Until men tell other men that it’s not acceptable to encourage a woman they don’t know to get blind drunk at a party, so he can have sex with her, men will think it’s okay. And brag about it. It’s not okay because there is no meaningful consent. No meaningful consent = rape. There is no honour in this kind of behaviour.

    (If you’re in a relationship and getting drunk then making out is part of your normal behaviour, that’s very different. Talking about the pick-up culture here.)

    • Colonial Viper 4.1

      Roastbusters is part of the continuum of normalised Kiwi male behaviour that includes that ol’ favourite: lubricate women with alcohol because then they’re less likely to object to sex.

      The statistics show that young women have chosen to more than double their intake of alcohol over the last 20 or so years and their consumption now almost matches that of young men. And it’s not the men who are buying the women this extra alcohol.

      • Bill 4.1.1

        CV. No matter how pissed out of my head I am, I don’t expect anyone to take advantage of my pissed up state and fuck me. And if the possibility of unwanted sex isn’t something that I have to take into account when getting pissed (it’s not and I don’t), why should any women have to?

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1

          Highly intoxicated males are also at far higher risk of violence and physical harm Bill. That’s a statistical reality, not a would/should judgement.

          • Bill 4.1.1.1.1

            I’m assuming you acknowledge the massive difference between being (say) mugged on the one hand and raped on the other?

            And I’m assuming you acknowledge that as a male, I don’t have to think twice before taking *that* shortcut home in the dark (whether sober or drunk) due to the possibility of sexual predation?

            And I’ll assume you recognise that the physical harm occasioned by being pissed and getting run over because of an alcohol induced lapse in attention or whatever….that, that’s different again.

            • Tat Loo (CV) 4.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m just stating what the statistical realities are Bill. Intoxication is very closely associated with violence and physical harm. To both genders. And of course I agree with you that women should never have to face any kind of sexual predation, regardless of their state of sobriety. And of course I also agree with you that the kinds of violence experienced by males and by females in association with alcohol have significant differences. Men tend to die more often, and younger, for instance, when alcohol is involved. So this is not just being “mugged.”

              • pillywog

                So there’s a link between alcohol and violence, both sexual and physical. That’s not what the ad’s suggest.

                If we’re talking predation, thats a whole nother evolutionary can of worms.

                Rape/violent culture as part of drinking culture in NZ is getting worse. Yeah I’d buy that.

                Perhaps more ads stressing the link might help?

      • BM 4.1.2

        This, women are no longer these timid wee things from 20 years ago, they’re roarers and pukers,chock full of confidence, ready to take on the world.

        On the negative side that more sensitive calming influence that women were renown for and which was rather effective at calming situations especially when piss was involved as been thrown out the window.

        The facts are, it’s a jungle out there and it’s every man/woman for themselves.

        • framu 4.1.2.1

          “The facts are, it’s a jungle out there and it’s every man/woman for themselves.”

          hmmm – which political and consumerism areas does that come from?

          note: im not trying to politicise this – just noting that both neo-liberal and modern marketting ideas want us to think only of ourselves and not of our communities

          They both direct us to “What to I want” and not “what do WE need”

          If we want to change attitude we need to see where it comes from

          • Francis 4.1.2.1.1

            Yes, and that’s the reason why we’re having all these kinds of problems. This culture of getting absolutely sh*t-faced while expecting nothing to go wrong (for both genders) and taking advantage of people who are not in their right state of mind is a societal problem.

            I would say it’s related to the shift between the traditional values of looking out for each other, to the modern day “neo-liberal” values of every man (as in human, not male) for themselves. There was a time when people would look out for each other to make sure nobody got that badly drunk. Even on those occasions that they did, the people around them would make sure that they made it home safely and were not taken advantage of. Anyone who undertook those disgusting activities would have never dared to publicise and brag about it, for fear of a backlash from any halfway reasonable human being.

            Now, we have a culture where everyone thinks they have the right to do whatever they want. Girls expect to be able to dress however they like and get drunk off their faces at parties and to have absolutely no repercussions, while boys feel they have the right to take advantage of those who are more vulnerable than them (and vice versa, to a much lesser extent).

            We have a massive problem, and one which will take much, much more than a few pieces of legislation to fix.

            • McFlock 4.1.2.1.1.1

              I agree with the bit about looking out for each other when vulnerable (not just drunk) – that comes and goes locally. We need to grow it so that it’s a backstop – so people will intervene to keep each other safe, and lend a hand if needed.

            • Bill 4.1.2.1.1.2

              We have a massive problem, and one which will take much, much more than a few pieces of legislation to fix.

              Yup. The very act of destroying patriarchy would do it though ;-)

        • Foreign Waka 4.1.2.2

          you are joking, right?

      • Martin 4.1.3

        at heart our attitudes are still frontier and colonial in this area.

        but then some guys are not the slightestest bit interested in girls

    • Rogue Trooper 4.2

      MeToo : “There is no honour in this kind of behaviour”. Consider what a dis honourable society we live in while asserting it’s civilized. These are times of social decline.

  5. MeToo 5

    Right. It’s all women’s fault. Glad we’re straight about that….

    I specifically said men deliberately getting women drunk. Not women deciding to get drunk off their own bat.

    It’s a well-known party trick: fetch a woman you fancy a drink; get her a double and yourself a single. *Get her drunk*

    • McFlock 5.1

      … and even if she voluntarily decided to get blind drunk (which, in my opinion, is not just a right but occasionally a necessity), that’s not an irresistible compulsion for someone else to commit rape.

    • greywarbler 5.2

      MeToo
      Would drinking lager or wine help prevent that? Or perhaps have a bottle of water and dilute drinks.

      • McFlock 5.2.1

        There are some cities where drink spiking is such an issue that everyone – male or female – is given a bottle with the cap still on because bar staff had been known to slip a palmed pill into the bottle while taking the cap off.

        And people schedule their bathroom breaks around their drink purchases, because otherwise you have to kiss goodbye to the barely-sipped drink that you left on the table – even with friends watching it.

        And they think this is normal.

        But it becomes a self-perpetuating condition, because when rapists figure out how to bypass the latest “personal safety practise”, the survivor blames themselves for not being even more paranoid, or the authorities find where s/he “slipped up” or “didn’t take enough responsibility for their own safety” and the emphasis is no longer on blaming the rapist.

        Much more sane just to blame the rapist from the start, imo. .

  6. Tracey 6

    Cv

    im not sure I understand your 2 points.

    when people value themselves little and measure their worth according to whether men or boys “like” them I wouldnt expect them to be happy or even sober.

    there has been a mythical meme that women have achieved equality… the ” fight” is over. But it barely began before certain quarters began its assault on any advances made… scamming young women into believing being equal meant equally drunk and more violent, ie more like men… equality is becoming the same as men.

    • Tat Loo (CV) 6.1

      when people value themselves little and measure their worth according to whether men or boys “like” them I wouldnt expect them to be happy or even sober.

      There is certainly some major dysfunction going on. Women who value themselves little and measure their worth according to whether men or boys “like” them, and men or boys who measure their self worth and build their ego according to whether or not they can denigrate women and subject them to emotional or physical violence.

      Bill has also pointed out in his post that there is something much deeper in the psyche and societally which is going on to bring this kind of thing out in people.

      • Bill 6.1.1

        … that there is something…

        Patriarchy. An acceptance of. A culture based on. It’s not mysterious or difficult to understand.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1

          Many societal values nowadays aren’t just patriarchal values. They are corporate values. The Left on the whole also cares not for religion nor monarchy nor nationalism.

          So what’s left to replace patriarchy with? A head based intellectualism? Concepts and theories? Some kind of old school tribalism or provincialism?

          • Bill 6.1.1.1.1

            Corporatism and patriarchy go hand in hand (each reinforcing and perpetuating the other). Intellectualism (the promotion of a specific type of knowledge) is also very much embedded within patriarchy or an extension of patriarchy, depending on how you look at it. As was/is a lot of tribalism and provincialism.

            Anyway, you no more ‘replace’ patriarchy than you ‘replace’ the dog shit from the sole of your shoe. You get rid of it.

            And at an educated guess (and very quickly and ‘off the cuff’) I’d say that would entail getting rid of (as just a couple of examples) hierarchy (it being fairly central to patriarchy and arguably a precursor for it’s formation)…capitalism, market economies and command economies (all being heavily reliant on the norms of patriarchy as well as the existence of hierarchies to survive)…and that would create a space holding the potential for us to develop democratic and therefore non-exploitative cultural norms/economies/polities.

            Or, of course, we could fill up that space with different dogshit and wind up back at more or less the same point again but with different labels attached to the same or similar dynamics. ;-)

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.1.1

              One likes to be optimistic, but when reviewing the instances of major societal revolution in the last thousand or two years, the ending has always tended to be very unhappy for a lot of people.

              • weka

                Revolution is a patriarchal concept ;-) Probably not a problem for the patriarchy really, as in a revolution you can just replace one version of the patriarchy with another.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.1.2

              Not sure about the getting rid of. I do like your implication that humans aren’t naturally patriarchal though, and that the need is to remove it and let us be how we should be. I see it more as a decolonisation process rather than removing the dogshit. We have to understand and acknowledge how we have been colonised (and probably why).

          • weka 6.1.1.1.2

            Corporate values ARE patriarchal values. Likewise the left is pretty much working within the patriarchy, albeit a modified version that makes attempts at the egalitarian.

            Bill would no doubt point to true anarchy as a possible path. I would suggest learning from matrilineal cultures (not to be confused with the mythical matriarchy). Listening to feminist analysis of culture, history, anthropology (that’s pretty broad). As a starting point, recognising what the patriarchy is and how we are all affected by it would be good. When the left can do this and work with that analysis we might get somewhere. I also think that working with rape culture analysis takes one pretty quickly to the core of the issues, and what the possible solutions are.

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.2.1

              Corporate values are NOT patriarchal values. At least a feudal lord cared for the condition and upkeep of his lands and had a moral responsibility to look after his serfs. Where is that in today’s corporate world.

              • weka

                The patriachy can work with both corporates and feudal lords. Both reinforce domination as the prefered means of arranging society. Neither accept egalitarianism as being desirable. Of course there are varying levels of domination within patriarchal systems, and some are better than others depending on where you sit in the system and what privileges you are allowed.

                I’m wondering what definition of the patriarchy you are using?

                • Colonial Viper

                  These debates do my head in to be honest, weka. When it comes down to a discussion on replacing patriarchy as the default, embedded, hierarchical, cultural and values basis for the global economy, modern society and central government I must admit that I have run out of even semi-intelligent things to say.

                  • weka

                    Have you come across the decolonisation work that’s been done in NZ?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Probably only in passing. I’ve gained some personal understanding of colonial attributes and characteristics in various fields in the last 10 or so years. And IMO in some crucial respects Aotearoa is being re-colonised, not decolonised.

                      Anyhows, as a member of the Colonial Fleet, decolonisation is not always a popular political stance…

          • Chooky 6.1.1.1.3

            @CV…what is left to replace the patriarchy?

            ….how about a matriarchy?… an ethics of humanism and care for the planet? ….ecospirituality?…. Green socialism?….an ethics of Deep Ecology and concern for the number one problem of Global Warming….caused by greed and overpopulation.

            …how about getting away from rapacious global capitalism? …..and thinking locally?

            …..letting every country face up to their own responsibilities for:

            1)the planet….
            2)cultural problems of overpopulation
            3) environmental degradation
            4)imbalances caused by sexism, the denigration of the female, denial of equal opportunities in education and fertility control
            5)exploitation of their people….particularly women

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1.3.1

              Atmospheric CO2 levels have just hit a new record high. Unfortunately I don’t think that the transition away from patriarchy (to whatever) is going to go smoothly, Chooky. Neo-feudalism stalks the land wielding money, power and resources.

              • Chooky

                @CV @ weka

                …agree with weka…we can but try…analysis is the first step…hence weka’s statement:

                ” I would suggest learning from matrilineal cultures (not to be confused with the mythical matriarchy). Listening to feminist analysis of culture, history, anthropology (that’s pretty broad). As a starting point, recognising what the patriarchy is and how we are all affected by it would be good. When the left can do this and work with that analysis we might get somewhere. I also think that working with rape culture analysis takes one pretty quickly to the core of the issues, and what the possible solutions are”.

                (btw…I am beginning to think weka is a girl…i always thought she was a boy)

                Chooky’s statement:
                What we need is a global matriarchal/feminist revolution:
                1)…that rolls back global corporate patriarchal capitalism
                2)…and replaces it with a Green localised self-suficient democratic socialist societies
                3)….and resists big plundering capitalist countries that cant sort out their own economies , overpopulation, environmental degradation,cultural sexism and exploitation of women

                • Tat Loo (CV)

                  What we need is a global matriarchal/feminist revolution:

                  And an energy replacement for oil. But I can’t see either happening in sufficient time (next 25 years) to resolve the serious problems which NZ is facing. Corporate power and international financial capital hold the steering wheel and they are not letting go.

                  • Bill

                    How long does it take to withdraw your active participation that props up all that corporate power, international finance and so on? 25 years or one moment of lucidity followed by definitive and uncompromising action? I mean, fck – when effective action is essentially based on simply not doing most of those things that you do, what’s the big problem?

                    Is it fear?

                    • Tat Loo (CV)

                      How long does it take to withdraw your active participation that props up all that corporate power, international finance and so on?

                      Perhaps you are someone who thinks that Green Party MPs will become more effective at advocating for the environment and for a sustainable future if they don’t personally use road transport, EFTPOS or fly in kerosene guzzling aeroplanes?

                    • Bill

                      Nope.

                      Maybe you’re one of those people who think it’s fine to carry on carrying on because the greens are up there advocating for the environment? Hm?

                    • weka

                      “I mean, fck – when effective action is essentially based on simply not doing most of those things that you do, what’s the big problem?

                      Is it fear?”

                      Humans are hardwired to self-protection. Yes fear. No-one wants to starve. Cognitive dissonance is huge too. We are also hardwired to psychological survival.

                • weka

                  Chooky, I’ve been a girl for quite some time ;-)

                  Look up matrilineal, it’s a better model to present. There really isn’t any such thing as a matriarchy within human cultures that sustain themselves over time (we could make the argument for a matriarchy to handle the end of the world though).

                  CV, later when things have settled down, I’d like to have a conversation about the patriarchy and decolonisation. Your comment suggests that women will just have to suck it up in the powerdown. Not likely, at least in this part of the world – NZ is steeped in strong matrifocal values and women won’t be abandoning that.

                  The processes that enable humans to work in non-patriarchy ways are exactly the same ones that we need to powerdown and have right relationship with the environment (and solve all those non-‘identity’ political issues too btw). If the concept of the the patriarchy doesn’t work for you think about it in terms of domination cultures compared to egalitarian cultures.

                  • Chooky

                    @ weka…ohh….i had you down as a bossy boy telling me how to vote…in that case….all is forgiven

                    ….vive la revolution feministe!..matralineal monde!

  7. TheContrarian 7

    When I see an attractive woman sure I have an appreciation of, and desire for, the female form but my first move would be to introduce myself and ask her out for a drink/dinner/coffee/what have you.

    Can’t get my head around it, the predatory nature of some.

  8. Jenny Kirk 8

    ” The ‘Roast Busters’ episode is, I believe, indicative of a problem far, far deeper and more insidious than some supposedly fucked up young men, inadequate police responses and inane mutterings of politicians. And as such it deserves a more thorough and ongoing response than the one that is likely to transpire.”

    Thank you Bill, for putting this up, and thanks also Karol for yesterday’s post on Cyber-Busters.
    This is a hugely serious matter – Stop Demand’s “Man UP” group is talking on TV3 News tonight about it – and hopefully, discussion and response on this will be on-going and get some sort of action.

    Stop Demand has sent me through this comment and the link at the end – its worth reading : “Given the ongoing outcry over the Roast Busters’ behaviour, we need to face the fact that this is the tip of a growing iceberg. Why? Some clues are given in this article, which sees a turn-around by a former lads mag editor. Please distribute to family/friends with children/grandchildren.

    Experiment that convinced me online porn is the most pernicious threat facing children today: By ex-lads’ mag editor Martin Daubney http://dailym.ai/1go8cUC

  9. weka 9

    Spot on post Bill although I think it would have been better without the list of the statements. Also, convention now suggests a trigger warning at the top of the list would be appropriate eg Trigger warning for rapists’ and lads mags’ attitudes about women and sex.

    I thought the post title apt. What do we do instead? This stands out for me

    “Those young men and the attitudes they hold are the product of very long and complex processes whereby some very fucked up shit has become normalised.”

    Very good description and is something that needs discussion and thought. And how can we discuss this without reinforcing racist ideas and without marginalising the current victims?

    I’ve been thinking about the Roast Buster rapists today, and how they came to be this way and what their experiences will be now and in the future. We can’t really go there too much because we know so little about who they are and why they are the way they are. But I do agree with what you are saying in the post, that it’s not enough to just wring our hands about how terrible the world is now and let the debate be those men over there are evil and those women are victims so we should bash/punish the men. Those women need some kind of justice for sure, and very little of what I have seen suggested is going to prevent this from happening again.

    • Colonial Viper 9.1

      RL expressed some concepts on the development of male attitudes from young around sexuality, which I think were worth examining further, but I don’t think that most people here were interested in them in the slightest.

      • weka 9.1.1

        Where was that CV?

        I took Bill’s sentence to mean the x thousands of years of developing dominating societies. It would make sense to look at individual human growth and development in that context.

        • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1

          It was a few months ago.

          I took Bill’s sentence to mean the x thousands of years of developing dominating societies. It would make sense to look at individual human growth and development in that context.

          We’re the first global, fossil fueled civilisation this planet has ever seen, and quite possibly the last. The things we are doing to ourselves now, I really wonder if there are easy historical precedences for.

          • weka 9.1.1.1.1

            I agree, but I don’t see the start of the current situation as being a few hundred years ago. I tend to the view that the invention of agriculture was the mistake that led us to this point, so we’re talking 5-10 thousand years. If that sounds too big, it’s worth remembering that that is a specific set of cultures and has by no means been universal. Plenty of other peoples who have done it differently (at least until the patriarchal colonisers arrived).

            • TheContrarian 9.1.1.1.1.1

              “I tend to the view that the invention of agriculture was the mistake that led us to this point”

              Wait, what? Agriculture was a mistake?

              • felix

                Definitely has its pro and cons.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Leaving the oceans was the problem tbh.

                  • weka

                    “Leaving the oceans was the problem tbh.”

                    lolz, you radical you. I thought coming down from the trees in the first place might have been a mistake, but the oceans?!

                • TheContrarian

                  By all means, list the pro’s and cons.

                  Because I would have thought growing ones own food where they stand as opposed to having to move with the seasons like, say, a Zebra, pretty much overrules any con.

                  • felix

                    Depends what you’re into. That one could go on either side of the ledger really.

                  • weka

                    Because I would have thought growing ones own food where they stand as opposed to having to move with the seasons like, say, a Zebra, pretty much overrules any con.

                    Depends on where you end up in the heirarchy that follows on from growing food in one place. Some people do very well, others well to poorly, others get enslaved or exterminated.

                    The theory is this: as soon as you settle in one place a number of things happen. One is that you change land use. You grow more food, but you need more people to grow that food and process and store it, so you have bigger families to provide labour (eventually you need slaves or an underclass). They need more space. And more food. Soon you are taking up a lot of space and eye-ing up the space next door. That’s how wars start (note, there is a difference between the wars that settled people do, and what nomadic, or hunter gathers do). Once you outgrow your space and have taken over your neighbours too, you have a society with lots of inequity in it. Inevitably the people with the least privilege in this society move somewhere else and eventually take over someone else’s land. That’s called colonisation.

                    There is a bit in there that I might not have covered, to do with why such cultures are inevitably hierarchical. I’m not sure if this is chicken or egg. Maybe emerging patriarchal cultures are more likely to become agriculturalists. Or maybe being settled and having to defend one’s riches elicits hierarchy. Either way, we can trace the rise of the patriarchy pretty clearly from the cultures in the Mesapotamian/Eastern European areas that coincided with the development of agriculture.

                    The other side of this is the misconception that gatherer/hunter/nomadic cultures are somehow ‘less’ than settlers. On the contrary, they’re often more stable and create less problems over time. There are pros and cons there too of course, but if the natural consequence of agriculture has been AGW and mass environmental collapse (not to mention millenia of war and famine and slavery and rape) then it’s pretty hard to make the case against the nomads.

                    • TheContrarian

                      This is like a political poes law.

                      On one hand no-one could say the advent of agriculture is a bad thing with a straight face. On the other it wouldn’t be surprising to see someone say it here.

                    • Bill

                      According to archaeological evidence, the Australian Aborigines toyed with the idea. Then dumped it in preference for the far easier gatherer hunter way of life.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Far easier? Holy shit…really?

                      Yeah, poes law.

                    • weka

                      TC, many credible people have discussed the problems that the advent of agriculture has caused. You asked for an explanation, I gave you a lengthy one, and all I get is some smart arse comment which doesn’t engage in ANY of the points. wtf?

                    • felix

                      Yep, easier in many ways. The amount of work required to sustain your lifestyle for one.

                    • felix

                      From your own link:

                      It has long been taken for granted that the introduction of agriculture had been an unequivocal progress. This is now questioned in view of findings by archaeologists and paleopathologists showing that nutritional standards of Neolithic populations were generally inferior to that of hunter-gatherers, and that their life expectancy may well have been shorter too, in part due to diseases and harder work – hunter-gatherers must have covered their food needs with about 20 hours’ work a week, while agriculture required much more and was at least as aleatory. The hunter-gatherers’ diet was more varied and balanced than what agriculture later allowed. Average height went down from 5’9″ (178 cm) for men and 5’5″ (168 cm) for women to 5’3″ (165 cm) and 5′ (155 cm), respectively, and it took until the twentieth century for average human height to come back to the pre-Neolithic Revolution levels. Agriculturalists had more anaemias and vitamin deficiencies, more spinal deformations and more dental pathologies.

                      Definitely had its pros and cons.

                  • Hi The Contrarian,

                    There’s actually quite a bit of archaeological evidence that human height reduced, diseases increased, wear and tear on bones increased with the shift from hunter gatherer life to agricultural settlement.

                    Have a look at some of Mark Cohen’s work. There’s debate, as ever, but the claim that agricultural settlement caused many human problems is hardly ‘wild’ or ‘out there’.

                    • Molly

                      Also worth a read to get a small glimpse of how hunter-gatherer society can inform the modern world – “Treading Lightly – by Karl-Erik Sveiby & Tex Skuthorpe”.

                      “There was in particular one issue that gradually took hold of Karl-Erik and which in the end became the topic of this book: Australian Aboriginal society’s model for sustainability has the longest proven track record on earth. While societies outside Australia emerged, prospered and went under, Aboriginal society withstood and proved its sustainability over tens of thousands of years of dramatic events, until the Europeans’ arrival in 1788. It is an extraordinary achievement, especially considering that this is something humanity is now struggling with: the way to build a truly sustainable society on this earth. How did the Aborigines do it? How did they organise for sustainability? What type of leadership did it require? They must have had a ‘recipe for success’. What was it? Could we reconstruct it?”

                    • TheContrarian

                      Sure but the positive benefits have far outweighed the negatives. But hey, if Weka wants to give up the ability to grow his own food and to have domesticated animals I wish him luck in his foraging.

                    • felix

                      Good to see you being open to contrary views as usual.

                    • weka

                      “Sure but the positive benefits have far outweighed the negatives. But hey, if Weka wants to give up the ability to grow his own food and to have domesticated animals I wish him luck in his foraging.”

                      Idiot. Agriculture is not horticulture. Try listening to people who know more than you (there’s been a number in this subtread), you might actually learn something.

          • Bill 9.1.1.1.2

            CV. The post is essentially about patriarchy…y’know, the larger context around this Roast Busters stuff.

            And I’m inclined to reckon that Weka’s not far off the mark in pointing to agriculture as a starting point…though for some cultures patriarchy may well have come later and for other reasons….the Holy Roman Empire springs to mind as one possible example which then forced patriarchy on some of the cultures it colonised and, of course, various forgotten cultures that fell before the onslaughts of western colonisation.

            Whatever the genesis (and it is a bit academic I suppose) one thing for certain is that patriarchy pre-dated the emergence of capitalism.

            • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1.2.1

              We’re closing in on 8B people now. It’s sorta like when you get more than say 80-100 cows together in a herd. The dynamics aren’t so good and the animals get distressed in lots of little ways.

              • Bill

                Yeah well, you find any disagreement coming from me if you’re suggesting our ‘core’ or day to day political/economic/community units should be in the order of 100 – 150 people max.

                Maybe we’d disagree on the likelihood of order arising from those simple initial conditions…naturally scaling up, versus the need for imposing order via some means or other.

                But that discussion/debate would be moving too far off topic.

      • miravox 9.1.2

        “I don’t think that most people here were interested in them in the slightest.”

        The thing is, I would have been very interested in the views about the development of male attitudes toward child rape, if the initial framing of the concepts wasn’t child sex isn’t all that bad.

        Anyway, that was then.

    • Bill 9.2

      Don’t know what this concept of ‘trigger warning’ is, neither I do. As for the list. Decided to include it because it leaves no doubt as to just how normalised this shit has become, plus… since I wasn’t necessarily going to be around to hit the post with heavy duty moderation, I reckoned anyone could point apologists in the direction of the number in the list they might have been channeling ;-)

      • weka 9.2.1

        Heh. We’ve been lucky so far then (where is BM tonight I wonder).

        Trigger warnings let people know that the following text/imagery contains things likely to be triggering eg in this case for people that have been raped or sexually assaulted, that list might trigger post-trauma reactions when they read it. Trigger warnings are a courtesy and an acknowledgement that people who have been traumatised have as much right to be in this conversation as anyone else. It enables people to be here more safely, and this enables access to a wider range of people. They’re in common usage on feminist, gender politics, queer, trans etc sites, and get used for things other than rape too.

        http://fuckyeahtriggerwarnings.tumblr.com/resources

        • Bill 9.2.1.1

          Okay. Cheers for that. Having read your link I’m thinking that the sentence preceding the list acts as a kind of trigger warning in and of itself anyway by clearly stating what is coming next.

  10. Treetop 10

    The first paragraph talking about shit becoming normalised is half the problem. The other half is how the police treat a complaint and the perpetrator knows that the odds are in their favour in not being prosecuted.

    The reason that Parker continued for so long was because the adults who had suspicion isolated the problem or normalised what needed to have boundaries e.g. sleep overs at his place.

    Walking in a teenagers shoes in 2013 is my starting point.
    Next is determining what they know about sexual boundaries.
    Then what their expectation is of adults to protect them and how teenagers can protect themself.
    And what to do to get help.

    The What’s Up phone line is so under funded and it is possible that the phone went unanswered by a teen who had been raped.

    No effing use in having a law if no one picks up the phone to help the caller.

  11. Sosoo 11

    Those young men and the attitudes they hold are the product of very long and complex processes whereby some very fucked up shit has become normalised.

    Here’s the bottom line – patriarchy is about power. And all systems of power include multiple and sometimes overlapping components that encourage the dehumanisation of those it seeks power over.

    And here’s the real problem. You don’t have to believe this sort of pseudo-intellectual, rectally-extracted nonsense to disapprove of the actions of the “Roast Busters”, yet the people who peddle this rubbish are more interested in getting people to agree with their seminar room theorising than they are in doing anything about the problem.

    The academic disciplines that deal with this stuff are now more or less functional religions in that their beliefs are largely evidence free and vehemently held, and any heretics are ostracised and punished.

    Rakish behaviour has existed forever. So have the solutions.

    • weka 11.1

      Do carry on with your “disapproving” of the men’s actions Sosoo. I’m sure it will be very effective at preventing rape and preventing young men being turned into rapists. /sarc.

      And do carry on with your whiney, no-one listens to me, everyone else who talks about rape culture is an idiot, marginalising shit. You’ve tried a number of times in the past day to run this line and as far as I can tell few have bothered to respond to you.

    • greywarbler 11.2

      Nice finish line Sosooo.
      All tied up with a tight little knot. Sort of like simple primitive castration. Was that your solution?

    • Rhinocrates 11.3

      And here’s the real problem. You don’t have to believe this sort of pseudo-intellectual, rectally-extracted nonsense to disapprove of the actions of the “Roast Busters”, yet the people who peddle this rubbish are more interested in getting people to agree with their seminar room theorising than they are in doing anything about the problem.

      The academic disciplines that deal with this stuff are now more or less functional religions in that their beliefs are largely evidence free and vehemently held, and any heretics are ostracised and punished.

      Rakish behaviour has existed forever. So have the solutions.

      Blah blah blah blah bladedy-blah.

      Meaningless generic slogans opportunistically pinned on a real scandal involving real people.

      “Rakish” eh? Is that all, fuckwit?

      Sosoo tries to use raped girls to justify their own silly political agenda and fantasies about imaginary leftist ivory tower intellectuals. It’s disgusting and callous.

      • greywarbler 11.3.1

        Rakish seems quite a good choice of description and is deeper and darker than I thought now I look up Wikipedia. It goes back to Charles II’s time mid 1600s.
        Often a rake was a prodigal who wasted his (usually inherited) fortune on gambling, wine, women and song, incurring lavish debts in the process. The rake was also frequently a man who seduced a young woman and impregnated her before leaving, often to her social or financial ruin.
        So it’s a long standing problem when there are males who can get away with this sort of shit, because of an immoral class society, decadent groups coalescing in secret, or just an overall disinterested amoral society with spikes of purist and prurient religious extremism.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rake_(character)

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellfire_Club
        These clubs were rumoured to be the meeting places of “persons of quality”[2] who wished to take part in immoral acts, and the members were often very involved in politics.

    • Rhinocrates 11.4

      Come on Sosoo, justify the rape of underage girls, since objection to it is just an “academic” “religion”. Justify it, tell us all why it’s OK and condemnation of it is just PC gone mad. Tell us why it’s OK to rape girls. I’d be fascinated to hear your justification.

  12. joe90 12

    Caroline Heldman’s TED talk The Sexy Lie is particularly relevant.

    http://carolineheldman.wordpress.com/tag/sexual-objectification/ (four parts – images to illustrate)

    • greywarbler 12.1

      I’d like to have seen a dramatic moment at the end of Caroline Heldman’s TED talk when she is taking off her false eyelashes, that someone walks on with a pair of scissors, she smiles and nods okay, and the person cuts her blonde curls off to shoulder level. Young women seem to love long hair which is always photographed lying carefully arranged on their shoulders. Some look as if they are peering out from under a rug. Some merely look scrawny but fashion captured.

      One of Ben Elton’s funny gags is where he takes pity on poor hair-addicted women who he gives a safe place to recover from their nervous tic of swishing their long, perfectly combed, shiny hair round and round. Sort of like the fly-swat tail on the back end of a horse. They are the victims of shampoo commercials.

      Contrast with Julie Andrews from The Sound of Music. She had a short trim and what a gal. Took on a huge family and the Na.is too. And they all got the safety of USA from war-torn Europe. I think the woman then who wanted long hair, plaited it and that would be easier to keep in place. French plaiting looks good.

  13. Ron 13

    Reading the comments above leaves me with the feeling that one common factor in violence to men or women is alcohol.
    Maybe it is time to consider the harm that our approach to alcohol causes and do something about it.
    We could start with insisting that the recommendations provided by Doug Sellman’s group be implemented instead of allowing the Alcohol lobby and National to water them down or outright ignore.

    • McFlock 13.1

      alcohol doesn’t expain why comments such as “What burns me up sometimes about girls is dick-teasers. They lead a man on and then shut him off right there.” coud be equally made by sex offenders or magazines targeted at influencing young men.

      Alcohol-related harm is a completely seperate issue to sexual violence. Both are bad, but they are different issues with different mechanisms.

      Let me put it this way: I have literally pulled drunk-comatose women out of the gutter and got them to safety. If a car had run over them in the dark, that is alcohol-related harm. If a rapist had chosen to rape them, that is rapist-related harm, because if she had been sober she might equally have met a rapist who prefers to attack sober women who aren’t covered in puke, or maybe they got safely home to the rapist they lived with. The problem of acohol-related harm is a red herring to the problem of sexual violence.

      • weka 13.1.1

        Excellent explanation McFlock. Bookmarking that one.

      • Colonial Viper 13.1.2

        The problem of acohol-related harm is a red herring to the problem of sexual violence.

        Disagree that it is a red herring – on the simple basis that the incidence of sexual violence, and in fact the incidence of all forms of violence, can be reduced through changes in the attitudes towards and regulation of alcohol, as supported by considerable local and international evidence.

        If it were a red herring – then attitudes to alcohol and liquor laws would have no effect on the incidence of sexual violence (and violence in general).

        • McFlock 13.1.2.1

          So there’s no rape in Saudi Arabia?
          Good to know.

          • Colonial Viper 13.1.2.1.1

            So there’s no alcohol in Saudi Arabia?
            Good to know.

            Talk about “red herrings”, mate.

            • McFlock 13.1.2.1.1.1

              Nah, it wasn’t a red herring. It was a trite response to a trite comment.

              Besides the fact that you have no basis for believing that there is the slightest correlation between “attitudes to alcohol and liquor laws” and sexual violence, you have consistently made no effort to demonstrate how any relationship that might exist was “alcohol is a causal factor of rape” as opposed to a purely coincidental relationship, or a relationship with a confounding cause (e.g. dulled recollections increase shaming of survivors either by the survivor herself or by the rapist spreading rumours among the peer group, and thereby lower the reporting rate, making it easier for rapists to commit more rapes).

              Feel free to show that your personal bugbear of alcohol has any relevance to the discussion of social attitudes to sexual violence.

              • Colonial Viper

                Levels of intoxication and severity of alcohol abuse are all very tightly correlated with violence between individuals, whether inside or outside the home, and whether the individuals are known to each other or not.

                For you to claim that the link between alcohol and violence needs more research before any action can be taken is somewhat disingenuous.

                Regulating alcohol and attitudes towards its use is certainly only one element in reducing sexual violence (and violence/physical harm in general, whether directed at men or at women), but it is a practical one, and one which I don’t think can be ignored.

                • McFlock

                  Forget about common-assault “violence”. We’re not discussing that. Rape is the topic under discussion.

                  I’m not sure that there is such a tight correlation between rape and alcohol. There was a major US college study that said half of rapes involved both parties drinking, but the instance was much higher when rapists were drinking regardless of whether person who was raped was, than when the drinking was reversed. And this is of a population that might have much higher instances of alcohol intake, where unsupervised or semi-supervised informal socialising frequently involves alcohol – so the rapists’ perceived moments of opportunity might be more often in alcohol environments purely by the habits of the sample population.

                  The levels of sexual violence in areas that don’t drink would suggest that the key driver is social attitude, not alcohol.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Forget about common-assault “violence”. We’re not discussing that. Rape is the topic under discussion.

                    And even more specifically, the Roaster rapes. Where a large amount of alcohol does appear to have been systematically involved.

                    • McFlock

                      Alcohol is probably the excuse for TV1 tonight framing it as a cyber-bullying issue, not a rape issue. I’m sure it would be different if they were tslking about pack-raping sober women and girls in the Auckland Domain.

                      You need to reread Bill’s article if you think it’s got much if anything to do about alcohol. Because even if the woman is drunk, even if the rapist is drunk, there’s still a question as to why the rapist would think his actions were acceptable.

                    • weka

                      “And even more specifically, the Roaster rapes. Where a large amount of alcohol does appear to have been systematically involved.”

                      What are you suggesting CV? That if the girls had drank moderately they wouldn’t have been sexually assaulted?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I’m saying that alcohol (and possibly drugs) were systematically used as a weapon of rape by the Roasters.

                    • McFlock

                      Yeah, it’s like there should be a law against supplying alcohol to minors.
                      Oh, and drugs.
                      Oh, and then raping them.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You’ve already identified that it’s societal attitude change which is important McFlock, not just what the letter of the law says, and I agree with you.

                    • McFlock

                      Yes, but I want a societal change in attitude about rape. You think a societal change in alcohol will address the bulk of the rape problem. It won’t, not even close.

                    • weka

                      If handled well, we could use health promotion around alcohol as part of the changes to attitudes about rape. Theoretically.

                    • McFlock

                      possibly.
                      it could dovetail with some of the nzta work that uses memes to make it easier for peers to influence against negative behaviours. Hit (ghost chips) and miss (mantrol), but a palpable hit when it works alongside other strategies.

                  • weka

                    This is anecdotal, but expert level anecdotal. After the purchase age for alcohol was lowered to 18, A and E doctors reported an obvious increase in sexual assaults (and STDs).

                    The problem of alcohol-related harm is a red herring to the problem of sexual violence because focusing on alcohol doesn’t provide a solution to rape. And it reinforces rape apologist ideas and takes us further away from dealing with the actual causes of rape. But that doesn’t mean there is no connection between binge drinking and rape.

          • Chooky 13.1.2.1.2

            miscellaneous obvious comments:

            …there is alcohol in Saudi Arabia….just hidden

            …unwise use/excessive use/inexperienced use/outright abuse of alcohol/ makes people less inhibited, more aggressive, less cautious. more lacking in judgement, more impulsive….. and while it doesnt directly cause rape or abuse …..it can create an environment in which it is more likely to occur..

            ….young people and alcohol are a dangerous mix

  14. Rhinocrates 14

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11151911

    Let’s not forget that that arsewipe Shearer and his cronies were thinking that bringing “JT” (ooh, initials, so cool, so macho) back into the fold was going to be a vote winner.

    Think about that when you talk about “PC gone mad” supposedly being electoral poison.

  15. Rhinocrates 15

    Eh, some bug… “You do not have permission blah blah”, meaning to add:

    Now Labour needs to highlight the cuts to Rape Crisis centre funding cuts to point out the hypocrisy and opportunism of Key’s government that just wants to use this to crack down on the Internet.

  16. Rhinocrates 16

    The sad thing is, I’m expecting Hooton to think that this is funny and an opportunity to make some comparison along the lines of “The Labour Party are just like the Roast Busters”, since he thought that comparing them with the Kahui family would be hilarious. Everyone should get their sick bags ready.

  17. Tracey 17

    Cv

    I think you are off base in many of your coments on thus thread.

    alcohol features in this one incident but almost all sexual abuse of children is done by sober predators.

    agriculture is totally irrelevant to tge discussion and if infused or bm or any of their ilk had so diverted a thread …

    women basing their worth on their value to men is not new and certainly not something restricted to the last 40 years.

    most of the “jokes” men make about their wives or women surely betray at best a skerrick of belief in what they are saying and at worst reflect their core belief.

    as long as the focus remains on this single incident many will miss the chance to actually make a change that will protect women and children in the future.

    BM

    thanks for sharing your frank views. If not for men like you freely stating thus kind of stuff people could perpetuate the myth that women are equal. You sir and your simplistic and shallow views of this issue are part of the problem and why women and girls will be abused and raped today, tomorrow and the day after.

    I am now repeating myself so my contribution is at an end on this. So I leave you with this repeated comment to indicate that the hand wringing, blaming race and alcohol and the development of agriculture will not help todays victims one iota.

    I was sexually abused at age 11 by a stone cold sober 60 year old white man from the middle class.

    • Bill 17.1

      Since rape is about power, and since alcohol or other drugs can establish a state of mind or a situation where power can be exercised…then it can be seen as a not inconsequential sidebar to the intended focus of the post. Maybe pornography and the way it routinely portrays women and sex, violence and denigration could be put up there alongside alcohol as a contributory factor. And if past actions of society are anything to go by, then a clampdown on alcohol or pornography might be expected.

      And such a clampdown would entirely miss the point and the basis of the problem. (From reading the ‘Stop Demand’ link from Jenny Kirk’s comment at 8 – there seems to be an appetite among some for doing the ‘morally correct’ thing and encouraging that moral correctness in others.)

      Agriculture or any other historical starting point for the emergence of patriarchy is somewhat academic, but not totally irrelevant if the next steps are recognition of what patriarchy is and how we manifest it or perpetuate it as individuals – what Weka has referred to as de-colonisation and what I’d refer to as a process of de-conditioning.

      People seeking validation via engagement in activities or habits that are ultimately detrimental isn’t new. The question I ask is what general processes might have led to feelings of personal inadequacy and why certain cultural expectations or behaviours and norms are elevated above others. And that often eventually comes back to patriarchy and the systems and/or institutions built on its unquestioned assumptions.

      Yes, the jokes demonstrate a part of the process of dehumanising inherent to all systems of power.

      And you are ‘just’ one among millions upon millions of people who have been sexually abused. And we should add the millions upon millions who are routinely and legitimately non-sexually abused every day of their lives. And in the end, all the millions upon millions add up to include (I’d reasonably guess) anyone and everyone reading this blog.

      Way I see it is that we need freedom from this cultural lock-down that delivers enormous privilege, power and license to a few and various levels of constraint, abuse and damage to everyone else. Fool that I am, I want freedom from the grotesque twists and bends forced on human behaviour by the patriarchal values that we internalise and that underpin the multiple systems of governance we have and the institutions we form.

      And that’s why I normally keep out of these types of discussions – because they quickly and easily mushroom into this enormous issue of what we think we are and can be – and the question of what has determined why we think and behave as we do. And part of that mushrooming is a million and one side-tracks that, although a legitimate part of the overall picture, wind up suggesting so-called solutions that end inquisitiveness (such as more alcohol legislation or harsher criminal penalties or whatever) And that, to my mind, is how people with their heart in the right place unwittingly wind up insisting that we carry on labouring beneath the same overarching patriarchal bullshit as before.

  18. Tracey 18

    Amen Rhinocrates

  19. vto 19

    One particularity which seems conundrumical…

    A woman wears a short skirt and men have certain thoughts about the legs and her physical attractiveness and sex. Is this somewhat inherent and natural for the man to think this way? Or not?

    Depending on the answer to that, what is the man to infer about the woman’s intentions in wearing said skirt, if she is aware of the man’s resultant thoughts?

    This is such a bloody age old question which would not appear to have a definitive answer, and it goes to the heart of the issue does it not?

  20. Tracey 20

    It does have a definitive answer. He learns self control and respect and to understand that his penis twitching does not give him license to do what he likes. You realise you are essentially advancing the islamic reasoning for burkas and women clad in black cloaks.

    the fact that you bring it up shows that deep down you think women have responsibilty to not make a penis twitch unless they want sex). But if a mans penis twitches his lack of control is bewildering. That is insulting to all men who can look and not touch.

    The question is actually why do some men, a small number consider it an unconditional green flag.

    overall it is a red herring. Most rape and sexual assault is in a home with normal day or nightware on.

    these boys behaved this way because their attitudes and behaviours prior went unchecked. Boys will be boys excused behaviours that came before this and the environment they were raised in. There will be a form of peer pressure here. Some will be more involved than others… pack behaviour…

    it will only need 1 parent to make their child face the consequences. .. others will have focused on getting legal advice.

    • vto 20.1

      Thanks for the reply Tracey but you have made some assumptions there on my own situation which I tried to leave out, and also not really answered the question… You have more answered the follow-on questions which had not been raised.

      If I might repeat …. “A woman wears a short skirt and men have certain thoughts about the legs and her physical attractiveness and sex. Is this somewhat inherent and natural for the man to think this way? Or not?”

      This I think is one of the first questions that needs to be considered before moving onto second and third round issues.

      (not trying to avoid or divert from the very real issues in this, just trying to evaluate in some order)

      • Chooky 20.1.1

        @ vto ….i dont know where you are coming from…but in NZ a young teenager ( and an older woman) wearing a short skirt is not a ‘come on’…the dialogue goes something like this;

        ….”Dont I look great!”….”Dont I look cool?”…. (in this fashion outfit?)….”I just love my freedom!”….” I just love my looks!”…..”I am a sun seeker”….”Havent I got great legs?” …( even if I havent)….”Doesn’t my fake tan look fantastic?”…”Wow this is going to impress my girlfriends” …. “I look like I come out of the magazines!” ……yah de yah

        For a NZ guy wearing shorts… the dialogue goes something like this:

        “Dont I look great!”….”Dont I look cool?”….”I just love my freedom!”….”I just love my looks!” ( even if I am as ugly as sin)…”I am a sun seeker”….”To hell with Wellington weather I will wear what I feel comfortable in”…..”Havent I got great sexy manly legs?” …( even if I havent) ….”Dont I look like a farmer outdoors type?”….( even although I work in an office)….”Fuck the fashion suit and shirt and tie….I am a real man!”….yah de yah

        Conclusion: in NZ… which is a Maori /Pakeha culture of outdoors sun lovers and egalitarian male/female mateship ….exposure of ones legs is NOT a ‘come on’ or an invitation to rape!!!!

        (Heaven help us if some newcomers would like to put us all into the coverup chador or patriarchal religious clothing in order to help prevent their minds wandering….towards sin)

  21. Tracey 21

    If you are a man answer it yourself to kick it off. I am not a man. My response remains pertinent because I disagree with your framing of the issue

    The question is actually why do some men, a small number consider it an unconditional green flag.

    • vto 21.1

      Well, as I said I think the question you put there is not placed in the right place. Or rather, the placing of that question doesn’t help to improve things if it ignores more fundamental matters…

      … which is what I am getting at. If the answer to my question is yes, men do naturally think legs, physically attractive, and sex, then the entire issue changes a bit doesn’t it? If it is a natural response and that natural response leads to danger and harm to women then the way to deal with it must take that into account. Most of the suggestions in the posts above and in your reply do not take this into account and that is a major flaw.

      But getting back to my point – if it is a natural thought process for men, and women understand that this is so, then what is to be inferred by men from women wearing short skirts?

      (note that this is just one small part of the issue and not intended to be an all-encompassing point)

      • felix 21.1.1

        ” If the answer to my question is yes, men do naturally think legs, physically attractive, and sex, then the entire issue changes a bit doesn’t it?”

        Not at all. Unless you think being attracted to someone means you’re supposed to rape them.

        • vto 21.1.1.1

          No no not like that…. It changes in the way the problem should be addressed.

          It is no good simply crying “stop it” if it is partly a natural instinctual thing, because that will simply not work, no matter the rights and wrongs. Other means must be brought to bear to control the danger I would have thought.

          And also as to my main original point, “if it is a natural thought process for men, and women understand that this is so, then what is to be inferred by men from women wearing short skirts?”

          • felix 21.1.1.1.1

            If what is a natural thought process? Feeling attraction? Or feeling rapey?

            • vto 21.1.1.1.1.1

              what was posted above

              • felix

                You need to define “it”.

                Are you talking about sexual attraction or rape?

                • vto

                  I have above. Legs, physical attraction and sex.

                  • felix

                    But you also said “no good simply crying “stop it” if it is partly a natural instinctual thing”

                    I don’t think anyone is crying “stop sexual attraction” are they?

                    • vto

                      Yes I did and that leads to the tie-up between sex and rape. Having no experience on one of those matters I struggle at this point, but it is drifting away from my original point…

                      ” if it is a natural thought process for men, and women understand that this is so, then what is to be inferred by men from women wearing short skirts?”

                      that they want their legs to be seen?
                      that they want to be physically attractive?
                      that they want men to think sex?

                      … and where does that then lead?

                    • felix

                      Rape, obviously :roll:

                    • vto I think you should check out joes link at 12 it covers what you are trying to get your head around.

                    • vto

                      sheesh felix…. (rolly eyes)… talk about the mother of all assumptions

                    • miravox

                      “what is to be inferred by men from women wearing short skirts”

                      She likes her outfit so thought she’d wear it.

                      End of.

                    • weka

                      vto,

                      “A woman wears a short skirt and men have certain thoughts about the legs and her physical attractiveness and sex. Is this somewhat inherent and natural for the man to think this way? Or not?”

                      Yes, for some men that is natural (in the sense of it happens without intention).

                      It’s your following statement that is problematic, but it’s useful because it does demonstrate the social problem men have with sexuality.

                      “Depending on the answer to that, what is the man to infer about the woman’s intentions in wearing said skirt, if she is aware of the man’s resultant thoughts? ”

                      The only thing that can be inferred from that is that she intended to put on a short skirt when she got dressed. Honestly vto, there is absolutely NOTHING else that can be inferred. NOTHING.

                      The best way to know if a woman wants to have sex with you is to ask. If you can’t do that, then the whole flirting thing works for some people, but it also doesn’t work for a whole bunch of others so it’s a risk. Most people manage that fine, and the worst thing is some social awkwardness. But some men go way beyond that, and they are the men that think similarly to what you are saying: that a woman wearing a short skirt makes me feel sexual therefore she is somehow responsible for helping me deal with these feelings and/or she smiled at me so she must want to have sex.

                      You seem to be inferring that when a woman wears a short skirt she is indicating that she wants to have sex*. But you have no way of knowing that, and neither does any other man. And even if that is the reason she is wearing a short skirt, you have absolutely no idea who she wants to have sex with. There is nothing to infer.

                      *I know this is hard for some men to understand, but sometimes women wear short skirts because it makes them feel good. Or a myriad of other reasons (It was the only clean thing this morning. I have to climb up and down those stairs and it’s easier in this skirt. It was a birthday present and I want the giver to be acknowledged etc etc).

                    • Bill

                      Or the enormous pressure applied by advertising, the fashion industry, peers and so on leads to the formation of a self image and what clothes to wear that just *happens* to pander to heterosexual men’s sexual jollies…which themselves are guided and informed by the same types of bullshit institutions and peer pressures. It’s a fcking mess.

                      Mind you, I guess women can walk down a street blithely flashing their ankles these days. Progress.

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      oh, I don’t know, a nicely turned ankle in pumps, and I’m in like a robbers dog.

                    • weka

                      It is a fucking mess, but you know what, it’s a slippery slope to talk about women dressing like that in the context of rape. Because women should be able to dress overtly sexually without being at risk of rape. And women should be able to be unconscious in a bedroom at a party or the back of a car without being at the risk of rape. The problem really isn’t that women are socialised in certain dress codes, it’s that men are socialised into think that makes them available.

                    • Bill

                      I agree that women should be able to wear anything at all or nothing at all and not be raped. That’s a no-brainer. And I’m aware there is a shitload of really fcked up, sometimes subtle, and always powerful conditioning swilling around. None of which excuses rape or sexual predation btw. But I think the presence of the conditioning and its effects need to be acknowledged and recognised…y’know, it’s really fcking us up (both men and women). Anyway, maybe then, we can deal to it. End it.

            • Chooky 21.1.1.1.1.2

              lol Felix

              …”If what is a natural thought process? Feeling attraction? Or feeling rapey?”

              • greywarbler

                weka
                Such a lot of should’s. Women should be able to go out side in Pakistan and not fear being shot at by drones. Women should be able to attend their cabbage patches in North China without being stung into paralysis by hornet wasps. Women shouldn’t have men in Uganda taking away their daughters to be bush wives. Their sons or daughters shouldn’t be ordered to shoot someone from the family to show their obedience or the whole family will be shot.

                There are decisions to be made all the time that affect people. There are forces of nature, and there is a force running through men and through women. It has to be kept under control as unleashed it becomes troublesome.

                Women have to leash their ideas, cut their cloth according to the conditions etc. If they are interested in having sex if there is someone nice around, carry some condoms, do women use caps? Then don’t get sloshed, you won’t enjoy it, you won’t even be there. And you’ll be sorry afterwards, you’ll be sad because things didn’t work out as they did in that film, book, your mind. So don’t act like a child with a hovering care-angel. Don’t act like a foolish female in a romance magazine who has a secret admirer whose love is true, he’s not a rotten stalker or rapist, and he just loves her from afar and when she is in danger he will step up and defend her and carry her away to safety.

                Grow up you women. If you’re so smart, learn how to handle yourself, learn how the world works, get your navigation certificate for society, or stay home and listen to music and do your embroidery until you are ready and able to read the signs.

                • weka

                  Wow, glad we got that out in the open.

                  You think that rape is natural and has to be controlled. And that women should take steps to alter their lives so that men don’t lose control. I’m sure all the elderly women that have been raped in their homes by men who don’t live with them will be very happy to hear that. Do enlighten us how exactly those women should have ‘handled’ themselves better.

                  I’d also like to know how a 13 year old who dresses modestly but is being raped by her older brother for several years should handle herself better.

                  Or a woman who is routinely raped by her husband and can’t leave because she has no money and he is threatening to kill her and the kids and she is in a constant state of trauma. How should she be handling herself to stop him being a rapist?

                  All those women know how to stay home and embroider.

                • miravox

                  ” or stay home and listen to music and do your embroidery until you are ready and able to read the signs.”

                  That’s really offensive, warbler.

                  You heard the one about the woman who was raped because she was at home cleaning her windows, right? It was her fault that she stood up there showing of her legs while some guy was outside her house. If she hadn’t cleaned her windows, he wouldn’t have been a rapist.

                  You heard the other one about the lady asleep in her bed, and some guy came in and raped her? It was her fault for being in the bed, obviously (I learned about sort of keep out of their way as a 15 year-old – at a friend’s place when someone came into the bedroom…).

                  You also heard the one about a 13 year-old that was chatted up by these two handsome young dudes, they stupefied her with alcohol and had a threesome with her… obviously her fault – at thirteen she should have been able to read the signals. Obviously got a bit of a learning experience when she and everyone she knew found it on Facebook

                  And then there was the one about the eight year old… (and I know about that one too)

                  It’s not about what women and girls do, it’s about the power to do something to them.

                • karol

                  Grow up you women. If you’re so smart, learn how to handle yourself, learn how the world works, get your navigation certificate for society, or stay home and listen to music and do your embroidery until you are ready and able to read the signs.

                  FFS, greywarbler, I’ve been hearing/seeing such BS for decades now. How long do we have to go on hearing and responding to such nonsense!?

                  Your idea of growing up seems to be for women to submit themselves to patriarchal dogma.

                  I’ve been around long enough to see something of how the world works – and some of it ain’t so great for women.

                  FYI, I had a flatmate in England, a lesbian, not the least interested in men – was tall and athletic and pretty much fully covered. Walking down a street in the twilight – not dark. Was hit from behind with a block of wood or something, dragged into a front yard and raped!

                  Plenty of women are raped in their own homes – probably embroidering or listening to music.

                  Maybe it’s you that needs to get out and see what is really happening in the world.

                  • fender

                    +1 Karol, Miravox, Weka

                    Greywarbler, you seem to have lost the plot. Even if a woman walks the streets naked it doesn’t mean she wants to be raped, nor does it mean she was in too much of a hurry to replenish her embroidery supplies to put clothes on.

                    • weka

                      I think that Grey’s point isn’t that women want to be raped, but that they share responsibility for their rape if they do certain things like be drunk around me, or wear short skirts. Which is akin to saying that someone who was burgled shouldn’t have had that nice flat screen TV in their living room.

                      I suspect that what is really behind Grey’s ideas is morality. They don’t like young women getting drunk or being sexual, thus lack of morals means one is responsible for one’s rape too.

                    • greywarbler

                      fender

                      Even if a woman walks the streets naked it doesn’t mean she wants to be raped
                      Grow up fender. Your erotic thoughts are becoming fevered and overcoming any attempt at sensible arguments. I don’t know what you are on about and find that the illogicality and raw emotionalism that gets spouted distasteful.

                      It is not a cultural norm to go round naked, men or women. Women are more vulnerable than men. If women deliberately and provocatively decided to go naked to prove a point, they might be lucky and only meet men who can accept the right of a woman to test the respect for females and the naked symbolism of freedom of the individual, men or women. Then to other men it would be a lewd invitation.

                      I would advise such a female Joan of Arc to become a naturist. Join a naturist reserve and that’s a place where people have made an agreement to be naked and understand and follow rules of respect about it.

                      and weka
                      Rape is just one way people can be attacked. We know it happens sometimes. Therefore it isn’t sensible to put oneself in the way of it happening. Not if one is an adult. I think there are a small vehement group of eternal female children who will never take responsibility for themselves. They are similar to puritans and rigid religious about their beliefs.

                      I just have to remember as I go through society that there are people who are unable to think a problem through logically, and just repeat lines of sanction or slogans repetitively and call that reason. As I do now and will not ever, that’s a promise to myself, ever try to make any rational points about this sacred woman thing again.

                      [Bill]: If I thought your comments stemmed from some awareness and were intended as parody, I’d think it quite smart – even humorous. The fact that you are in fact serious is…sad. You’re comments are being left, merely as an illustration of some of what is wrong with some men.

                    • karol

                      greywarbler,

                      keep digging… or maybe try to understand what the issues are about rape. People have explained. You just keep on with your hands over your ears.

                      You are being extremely offensive, but nothing seems to get through to you as to why.

                      You being rational? Please? You patronising comments about women needing to grow up are offensive.

                      PS: I imagine I have read far more material based on research about rape than you are aware exists.

                      eg about women’s experience of rape and the impact of victim blaming

                      Or acceptance of rape myths.

                      Maybe you could help yourself by getting informed, rather than just continuing to peddle old myths and claiming you are being grown up and rational?

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      this, has clearly, not gone well for some, although, this particular dive had been forecast.(not benefit of hindsight). ;)

                    • miravox

                      “I just have to remember as I go through society that there are people who are unable to think a problem through logically”

                      The only excuse I can think of for your illogical piece of bitchiness is that you’ve lived a very sheltered life and you’re totally uninterested in reading or listening to anyone who supports your own view that rape victims are to blame for their own situation, not the rapist. You brush off the fact that people get raped, possibly interrupted from their embroidery, even when they do no fit your stereotype of scantily-clad, attractive, sex objects. Which in itself is quite curious.

                      I doubt your watched or read any single one of the substantive links on this topic that people have posted to try and explain that it doesn’t matter what women do or wear, someone will still be raped..

                      I also think you’ve forgotten that this thread began as a discussion about why some young (and some not so young) men have attitudes that they think it’s fun to get a 13-year-old girl – not a woman… a 13-year-old girl – drunk and rape her.

                    • miravox

                      Edit: – (it wouldn’t let me)
                      you’re totally uninterested in reading or listening to anyone who doesn’t support your own view that rape victims are to blame for their own situation, not the rapist.

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead 21.1.1.1.2

            “Natural instinctual thing”?

            Like defecation, for example? No way to control that, just do it everywhere, eh?

            • vto 21.1.1.1.2.1

              Great example. Defecation is also natural and is controlled heavily isn’t it. People don’t just go shitting everywhere do they. And neither would crying “stop it” work would it. Thanks for the support.

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                Yes, so blaming women for rape is like blaming underpants for incontinence.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 21.1.2

        Inferred?

        Mens alleged “inferences” change “the entire issue”?

        How about they infer that women who wear short skirts don’t want to be raped?

        • vto 21.1.2.1

          Because, as I have said several times now, that ignores what I think is a natural instinct to see legs, physical attractiveness and sex. (I realise of course rape is not about sex as such and is to do with many other factors too, but this comes up in all commentary across all media in discussing this issue).

          This natural instinct cannot be ignored imo, yet it is, in trying to deal with this important issue.

          What would you say to men who think legs, physical attractiveness and sex when they see a woman in a short skirt OAK?

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead 21.1.2.1.1

            I’d say “Isn’t vto making a dick of himself trying to argue that sexual attraction causes rape?”

            • vto 21.1.2.1.1.1

              for your own credibility OAK you may want to show where I have tried to argue that

              and try answering the question put to you in good faith

            • greywarbler 21.1.2.1.1.2

              OAK
              But presumably there are a set of received stimuli that result in one woman, or man, being chosen as an object of interest, possibly to rape. I’m sure that sexual attraction would come into it, clothes, shape, appearance , the eyes and mind are observing and even subconsciously taking in. Studies have been done about what men look at when seeing a woman walking towards them. I think they describe it as a triangle sort of target area. I have forgotten the order that the eyes travel around.

              The trick for a woman who wants to make a male friend for romance is to appeal without giving some misleading message that indicates easy sexual availability. There is a difference in the way that men and women dress. Women like to have bare flesh, men usually cover themselves. Isn’t that an indication by women that they want to look more appealing to men, showing off smooth, slim arms and even women with large thighs and legs will wear short skirts because that’s what women are doing in fashion. And why do women follow fashion so closely?

              But it all depends on the sexualisation of the males and whether they see women as pleasant people to be social with or whether they are see women only on a dichotomy of sexually interesting or not. Then they would assess appearance in a different way than a well-balanced, people-friendly male.

              • vto

                Thanks greywarbler that is the issue I’m trying to explore.

                The reason for questioning it is that in a huge amount of the commentary on this, especially by the younger, comments like “cock-teaser”, “dressed like she wanted it”, etc etc are rampant.

                It must be explored.

                Though I have no experience in rape from what I can glean it is not always about power, abuse etc, it is often simply about sex (roastbusters example). As such, the sexual signals given and taken must be honestly evaluated if a solution to the problem is to be robust.

                Must away for a few hours now……

                • weka

                  Greywarbler and vto, the problem in this conversation is that the two of you seem to think that rape is about sexual attraction, whereas the rest of us don’t.

                  Sure rapists are attracted to some women and not others, but it’s not the attraction that is the cause of the rape. It’s the shit going on inside the man’s psyche. I think the reasons for rape are complex, but in general it does seem to be an issue of power. That’s why women not conventionally attractive get raped. Or women who are do drunk they are unconscious.

                  The tricky bit here to understand is that some men find degrading women, or having power over them, a sexual turn on. This is nothing to do with what the woman is wearing. It’s to do with the patterning in that man’s brain. The real question isn’t was the woman being a cock-tease, it’s why the man has the response in himself that he has an entitlement to sex with that woman.

                  • Chooky

                    +100 weka

                    the epidemic of gang rape in India is a case in point ….being well covered up does not protect you!….what about old women raped in their beds!….what about young girls and women raped in war?

                    …. rape is not about BLAMING the VICTIMS…. women and girls for not covering up!..

                    ….rape is about sick psyches of some males imbued with patriarchal religious attitudes, which regard women as inferior and as objects for their use and subordination and humiliation!

                    … rape is not about love or respect…

                    …rape is an act of war perpetrated on women…..

                    ….rape is a power trip …pure and simple!

                    • +1 yes I agree with weka and Chooky.

                      vto says, “Though I have no experience in rape from what I can glean it is not always about power, abuse etc, it is often simply about sex (roastbusters example).”

                      imo rape is never simply about sex and the example you use proves it. Sex is not stupefying a woman or girl and then proceeding to pack rape her. As Chooky says it is an act of aggression and power over others and it is unacceptable.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      +2

                      Rape is all for the purpose of power and humiliation and is not about men being unable to control their impulse to lift short skirts in public places.

                      As for Grey Warbler’s comments about staying home and doing embroidery and then his following pseudo-sociological ramblings… Jesus Christ, words fail me and I have a PhD in English! I simply cannot articulate what I feel about that nonsense.

                      GW – a word of advice: listen to what women say, don’t construct silly self-gratifying theories about how they “should” behave. LISTEN Learn about how women really are and stop ranting about what you think they should be.

                    • karol

                      Well said, Rhinocrates.

                      And this is worth a read: An open letter to Willie Jackson & John Tamihere from Marama Davidson

                      And Marama has tweeted suggesting people read the comment from Kim Marshall, a survivor, under her blog.

                    • Rhinocrates

                      Hi Karol, that is an excellent link. If anyone else hasn’t read it, read it now.

                      No crime is defined by the perpetrator or their sympathisers or apologists; a crime is defined by its victim.

                      Following another rape case a while back, I saw a lot of “white knighting” on a supposedly “liberal” site. There was lots of hand-wringing about how awful the crime was, with warnings to women to stay close to “good” men. Unfortunately, the white knight is part of rape culture – he’s the “good man” who implicitly warns a woman to stay close by him lest a worse man rape her, but won’t do anything to stop rapes happening or being acceptable but… you know… unfortunate… and really her fault for being foolish.

                      Being a man, I don’t feel any “solidarity” to the arbitrarily defined and abstract collective of “men” if someone defends rape by minimising or quibbling and sophistry. It is my duty to condemn that excuse-making. The “Roast Busters”, “JT” and Jackson et al are not part of the group that I want to be a member of. I am biologically and socially a man, but being a man does not mean being like them.

                      There are no mitigating factors, no misfortune, no accidents, no provocations, no uncontrollable impulses – because they’re all excuses and those who bring them up are trying to pre-emptively or retrospectively excuse themselves.

                      I know that someone is going to think that I’m a “traitor to my sex” for saying that or at least that I’m “not on the team.”

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      no apologies necessary Rhinocrates

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                …presumably there are a set of received stimuli that result in one woman, or man, being chosen as an object of interest, possibly to rape.

                Yes, I’m sure there are. The minimising of offences by media employees and the Prime Minister, for example. Or the way the police treat complainants. Or the way the courts treat complainants. The transparent denial of all of the above by people who argue that she shouldn’t have been drunk in possession of clothing, or gender for that matter. Or sober. Or looking too miserable. Or too happy.

                Or any other number of victim-blaming craven cowardly excuses pretending to be arguments.

                • Rogue Trooper

                  well-argued ;) (just going out on a limb).

                • Rhinocrates

                  …presumably there are a set of received stimuli that result in one woman, or man, being chosen as an object of interest, possibly to rape.

                  Look at that objectifying, dehumanising language.

                  “received stimuli” “object” “possibly”

                  There’s psychological evasion in plain view.

              • Chooky

                Jesus Christ greywarbler ! …where are you coming from?

                ….bullshit…men usually cover themselves!!!!…most are really keen to get their gear off

                bullshit , bullshit….you seem to think women exist simply to attract men….get real!

                …women like to look good because women like to look beautiful…..fullstop…women are beautiful!…as are some men…they like their bodies….especially Europeans

                ….the egotism of some men that women exist for them really disturbs me

              • Chris

                “But presumably there are a set of received stimuli that result in one woman, or man, being chosen as an object of interest, possibly to rape. I’m sure that sexual attraction would come into it, clothes, shape, appearance , the eyes and mind are observing and even subconsciously taking in.”…

                you are kidding aint ya Grey???

                Rape has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with how sexually attractive a victim may be.

                70 and 80 year old grannies aren’t wearing skimpy clothes with heaps of makeup on and drinking alcopops just before they get into their beds for the night.

                Rape is about violence, it’s about control, it’s about humiliation. Sex is just the means to achieve the violence and control and ultimate humiliation of the rapists prey.

      • vto 21.1.3

        Genuinely appreciate all comments above and unfortunately have no time to respond. Have had a great day in the Chch rebuild so we heading out for easements……

        chedda

        • idlegus 21.1.3.1

          infact one of the boys themselves wrote ‘its not the sex, its the roasting’.

          • Rogue Trooper 21.1.3.1.1

            that’s “spit-roasting” idlegus (visualize the thirteen year-old rotating between…Gottit?)

            • idlegus 21.1.3.1.1.1

              yes, i did know that, i do wonder if the media do with their repeating of the term. one of the fb sites had a ghastly comic image of a woman being literally ‘spit roasted’. piece of meat, indeed. but i don’t think the boy cared about the ‘spit roasting’ but maybe ‘roasting’ is more about the humiliation afterwards, the bragging, the online bragging. imo. i just thought that comment could be read as ‘its not the sex, its the raping’, dig?

              • weka

                Except they’re probably incapable of distinguishing between sex and rape.

                • idlegus

                  read their askme profiles, they answer everything there…theres alot there the media havnt reported, including the bit brett dale mentioned the other day, charging $20 for guys to go ‘spit roasting’ with them…but of course you are right, but i doubt its that black & white too. fuk knows what goes thru these boys heads, & those girls supporting the boys!!!! ffs, in years to come im sure those girls will be very embarrassed (the supporters “is just a teen thing” – do they not know we were all teens once too?). but lots of discussion on the interwebs, & thats a good thing.

              • Rogue Trooper

                dig

      • Murray Olsen 21.1.4

        If you see a painting you like, are you filled with a desire to steal it? I’m not, just as I can enjoy the beauty of a man, woman, or child without wanting to have sex with them. Like John Banks, I am a married man. Even if I don’t find a particular person beautiful, they still have the right to wear what they like and be safe. Having shapely legs does not take this right off them.

  22. JK 22

    vto repeats …. “A woman wears a short skirt and men have certain thoughts about the legs and her physical attractiveness and sex. Is this somewhat inherent and natural for the man to think this way? Or not?”

    Of course its natural for both sexes to look at the attractiveness of the other (whatever they’re wearing) and consider sex …. but that initial assessment – if I could call it that – should not lead to sex between the two if one of the couple (a) don’t know its happening and (b) has not consented and (c) is too young anyway.

    What these young men are doing is vile, and it shows their attitude and those of the older people around them, is total contempt for women. They are using young women like playthings – to be tossed away when playtime is over.

    • Rhinocrates 22.1

      I used to teach life drawing* – something art school bean counters now think is redundant because CGI is king now (despite the fact that the best CGI artists said that what they knew about bodies made them good at CGI). I appreciate great legs, breasts, ankles, elbows, hands, bellies and toes on fat or thin men and women all because they’re complex landscapes of skin over flesh. If a fat or thin person looks “ugly”, it’s because of bad lighting.

      (I’d use more technical terms like “gluteus maximus” instead of “butt cheek” and “popliteal fascisa” for the region at the back of the knee and “philtrum” for the dimple between the nose and upper lip, but that would be too obscure.)

      You can look at any body and love it and the person that they are. I saw my models as professionals and treated them as such. You can look at a body, admire the person and not need to rape them. There are NO uncontrollable impulses and therefore no excuses. In short, if any talk by a man about how they saw a leg or boob and couldn’t control themselves is bullshit.

      *My employer at the time is a prominent feminist artist, and while now retired as a teacher, is still active as an artist and remains a close friend and my partner of the time also continues to teach the same subject.

      • Rogue Trooper 22.1.1

        Rhinocrates :and you a Ph.D in English you say, along with a foreground in Architecture?

        • Rhinocrates 22.1.1.1

          Yeah, I’m rather eclectic. Early degree in industrial design, the next in architecture and the last in english and teaching in all… I write a bit and I’m proud that my students get awards, but I’m not rich myself.

          • Rogue Trooper 22.1.1.1.1

            published? genre? Here appears an eclectic chap.

            • Rhinocrates 22.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes, some critical academic stuff and SF/horror in digital and hard copy. Novel with splendid illustrations later this year. Sorry, can’t say any more since that would reveal who I am :). Google “Night Land” and that may help.

  23. Treetop 23

    “I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think.”
    Socrates

    “Character is made by what you stand for; reputation by what you fall for.”
    Robert Quillen

  24. Tracey 24

    To make it clearer for vto

    do you see legs short skirts and think sex?

    If yes, why dont you try and rape her because most men wouldnt.

    if no, then what is your point.

    I dobt consider I started at the wrong place. I took your propsed assumptions and commented.

    i get that you are trying to nut this out albeit clumsily but I did address your starting point with an answer to your question. Namely yes and then I moved to step two.

    Please explain how step 2 looks if the answer to your question is no.

  25. Rogue Trooper 25

    reflection, in eyes the size of Windmills

  26. weka 26

    Tracey, I assume you are posting from a phone. Can you please refer back to the comment you are replying to? It’s hard to follow the conversation otherwise.

  27. Mjoy 27

    These boys weren’t born with these attitudes. These attitudes have come from our society where pornography has been normalised, morality has been undermined and we have to have alcohol with everything. These kids have too much money and a sense of entitlement. I’d go on but I’m starting to sound like my father (b1918), he was right after all.

    • Bill 27.1

      Yes. But pornography is only a part of the problem. And alcohol is only a part of the problem. The root cause lies much deeper. And to just focus on pornography or alcohol and imagine that some action on those things could render a solution would be to miss or ignore the heart of the matter and so fail to solve anything.

  28. captain hook 28

    nearly didin’t get to comment here as the thread triggered the default at the APN network server.
    anyway the thing is that New Zealand society has gone down the gurgelr with all the fat lazy schoolteachers promoting the post modern line that only your own truths count and squeamish liberals getting rid of any form of coroporal punishment.
    the little b*ggers might get traumatised for life.
    yeah right.
    Now we are reaping what we have sowed.

  29. karol 29

    A Guardian article on the issue/Roast Busters.

    Focuses a lot on FB & the Internet, plus:

    If groups like the Roast Busters, the inaction of the police and late breaking by the media can tell us anything, it’s that our communities need to be better equipped to identify and call out reprehensible sexual behaviour. And that doesn’t come from better cyber-bullying legislation and scare-mongering young girls, it comes from better resourcing the sector who provide education, support and confidence to young people and their families. If the police are going to blame a lack of people coming forward for their inaction, we need to confront this behaviour as a community, and be better equipped to do that.

    Sounds good. But how would that work in practice?

    • Rogue Trooper 29.1

      addressing karol and Bill primarily, Campbell Live interviewed some folk out West Auckland way on their opinions and universally those asked were outraged and disgusted.
      However, and this is observation is coated in confirmation, female teen-peers of these offenders were interviewed on ONE news and one young woman stated (after lauding the offenders in general) “Anarchy , and drunken group sex is now the norm” . Now, while the sample may be small, clearly these actions are emerging norms (trends).

      ps, anyone note the pairing of two Law and Order articles on One News; one about the 130 weapons “stolen” and filtering down to meth-heads, the following about the introduction of much stronger pepper-spray for NZPolice.

      Cloth for ears and buttons for eyes. Squeak!

      • Bill 29.1.1

        If people want to get drunk and engage in group sex, then that’s entirely up to them. But if people ply others with drink to make them engage in group sex, then that’s an entirely different matter. And since I haven’t seen the Campbell interview, I can’t comment on which scenario the teens were referring to.

        As MeToo has commented, there’s nothing new in men consciously and deliberately setting out to inebriate women so they can ‘get a leg over’. All that’s new is that fb and whatever provides a platform for them to boast about their predation to all and sundry…which is maybe a way they delude themselves and provide a measure of self- justification (I put it out there and got x number of ‘likes’, therefore nothing’s wrong)

        Anyway – all this flaff about the ‘Harmful Digital Communications Bill’ – (somebody really didn’t think that title through, did they?) – is just that – flaff.

        And any moral outrage about people freely participating in group sex or in any other sexual behaviour is also flaff.

        If peer pressure has been a factor in convincing some girls that it’s ‘cool’ – and if getting pissed beforehand is an accepted part of ‘the coolness’ – then that’s no more right than straight out male predation, but a far trickier and more convoluted situation.

        • Rogue Trooper 29.1.1.1

          yes, rather a humorous title for a Bill ;), does appear to be a convolution (confounding) to be teased out.
          Yes, it’s not the medium alone implicated in this, furthermore the medium may have contributed to a new national awareness; Nek Minnit…

        • karol 29.1.1.2

          If peer pressure has been a factor in convincing some girls that it’s ‘cool’ – and if getting pissed beforehand is an accepted part of ‘the coolness’ – then that’s no more right than straight out male predation, but a far trickier and more convoluted situation.

          It puts me in mind of the 60s and 70s. Basically the whole “permissive society” thing promoted “free love”, multiple partners, group sex, serial monogamy, etc. Eventually some women decided that this worked more in the interests of men; that many women had gone along with it because it was deemed “cool”, “revolutionary” etc, then found for them it just was serving male interests and not their’s. It was OK for some women, but for many, it just created problems – read some stuff by/about Tim Shadbolt’s ex wife for instance.

          It just seems each new generation has to find out these things fro themselves – and very little changes in the basic structure.

          • Bill 29.1.1.2.1

            Yup. The whole reaction against the ‘nuclear family’ that just happened to not recognise the impact of patriarchal norms within the social dynamics of the reaction that was being acted out has always kinda bemused me.

            And yes, little if anything changes through the generations because no matter what course we embark on refusing to recognise patriarchy is a bit like slamming our madnesses in a jar – it follows us, subtly impacts everything and becomes fully reformed in a novel form by and by.

      • Chooky 29.1.2

        …most serious Anarchists are ethical people and would not dream of rape

        …most rapists come out of a patriarchal value system which denigrates the female and want to keep women under their fascist control

        • Bill 29.1.2.1

          Cheers Chooky. Forgot to comment on the stupid mis-potrayal of anarchy.

          Would definitely have been more accurate for the quoted person to have said “Patriarchy and drunken group sex is now the norm”…except, that for some odd reason ‘patriarchy’, unlike ‘anarchy’, isn’t a term loaded up with a lot of negative connotations – wonder why? ~ sarc~

    • Bill 29.2

      Love the recurring meme when stuff like this comes up of how ‘we need to confront this behaviour as a community‘ as though we have community – as if our communities hadn’t been ripped asunder years and years ago.

      • Anne 29.2.1

        ‘we need to confront this behaviour as a community‘

        The moment I hear that expression – be it radio or television – the “off” button is deployed because I know that what follows is not going to be worth listening to. Total cop-out, and the cops are sometimes the culprits.

  30. Tracey 30

    Sorry weka but its hard to identify the particular post.

    if anyone doubts where this shit starts listen to a former labour party mp interviewing an 18 year old girl on this. Keep in mind said ex mp believed he was being “sensitive”

    • weka 30.1

      Tracey, I didn’t mean a particular post, just that when you comment can you please refer back to who you are replying to, either by post number or time or something. Otherwise when I come along later it’s too hard to know which comment you are replying to.

  31. Tracey 31

    Captain hooks ladt comment above is possibly the most stupid I have encountered on this topic including BM… grumpy and messrs tamihere and jackson.

    • Rhinocrates 31.1

      Are you sure it’s stupid? It’s not even coherent. I can’t even extract any point to ridicule. I’m going to assume that it’s Dadaism.

      … er, come to think of it, no, considering that the imbecile tried to make a rape joke earlier, I think that I will agree. He is both offensive and an idiot.

  32. Tracey 33

    Understood weka but mobile does
    nt show time or post number. I will use a wee quote til telecom repairs my severed line

  33. Tracey 34

    Great link joe, thanks. Which is why government shld be boosting funding to programmes proven to improving girls self confidence, instead of cutting them.

  34. aerobubble 35

    National answer, to addressing a problem in the real world, is to clamp down on the internet. Collins want to shutdown the messager, and push the issue of her internet bill.

    Its quite clear though, that where allegations against minors, of drinking, of under aged sex, are made that parents/guardians are told and held accountable for their own and the conduct of their children. Who supplied the alcohol, where did these incidents happen (there is a video! photos) whose bedroom and which parent was supposed to be minded them. Its just astonishing that this site was up for two years… …I mean a swab of the rooms may show up seman of one of these young men in a girls room.

    How is this about internet speach at all, this is all about the incompetence of the Minister of Justice, childrens parents are not managing their minors and even the Police think nothing of it.

  35. karol 36

    It gets worse. 3 News says police received a complaint about the Roast Busters in 2011.

    Inquiry needed now, Judith & Anne (Tolley)

    • Treetop 36.1

      I just commented on open mike @ 30.

      Not enough evidence to prosecute:

      How hard did the police try?

    • Bill 36.2

      Okay. I’m just taking this at face value. But, y’know, what the fuck!

      They said that I didn’t have enough evidence to show. Because I went out in clothes that was pretty much asking for it. […] I was asked a lot of questions about what I was wearing, and I went out in a skirt.

      Aside form the utterly reprehensible attitude of the police as illustrated via that quote….questions, questions, questions!

      Were the interviewing officers male or female? If they were male…why? And regardless of gender, did they have any training on interviewing victims of sex crimes…and in particular children? Was any trained support person available or were the services of any such person (counseling or/and support) offered?

      • karol 36.2.1

        Yes. At the moment we can only take it at face value. But, the police now say there was a complaint. Before they said they couldn’t do anything because no-one had complained.

        It does need an investigation.

        • Bill 36.2.1.1

          Sorry. Crossed wires. I meant I was taking the words of the girl at face value with regards the angle of the police questioning.

          On the ‘was there a complaint or wasn’t there’ – it would be interesting to know the difference between a formal complaint and an informal one. I believe the police said previously that no formal complaint had been received.

          Now, apart from whatever technical difference between the two types of complaint, I’m interested to know if the police are in a position to (arbitrarily?) determine the formality or otherwise of complaints made and as to whether they can influence the process of complaining to push it this way or that so that it winds up being either formal or informal.

          • karol 36.2.1.1.1

            Yes, I thought that’s what you meant about “face value”. And I was agreeing with you.

            It needs an inquiry as to why the police decided there wasn’t enough evidence to do anything with the complaint, and how thorough their investigation was.

      • Anne 36.2.2

        They said that I didn’t have enough evidence to show. Because I went out in clothes that was pretty much asking for it. […] I was asked a lot of questions about what I was wearing, and I went out in a skirt.

        My dolly girl days? Hot-pants, witches britches and mini-skirts. Had two pairs of hps – one lime green and the other vivid orange (oh yuk). My witches britches were bright red edged in black lace. Every movement saw an enticing (I hoped) hint of red and black. My peers were no different. Guess what. None of us were raped. What does that say? Massive culture change and the neo liberal outlook is driving it.

        • karol 36.2.2.1

          There are so many reasons why woman dress as they do. I understand it is often to gain the approval of other women. And many women (though not me) strongly follow the current fashions. These days the fashion industry tends to promote provocative dress for women.

          Also, in this thread I have too often seen an assumption of heterosexuality. Comments about men and women naturally being sexually attracted to each other’s bodies.

          In the course of my life I have been many times out socialising with lesbian and bi-sexual women friends in public places: and most would make an effort to dress attractively one way or another. And too many times to count (mostly back in my younger days) some men would assume we were there to get their attention and rudely intrude on our fun – sometimes in unpleasantly harassing ways.

          So many wrong assumptions going on with such guys!

        • Chooky 36.2.2.2

          Anne +1…yes those were the days… Twiggy mini skirts, tights, Mary Quant fringes, lots of eyeliner…..witches britches, purple culottes and red woolen hot pants ….and later a red scooter …..which I drove a boyfriend around on…we were cautious with alcohol and we had fun! ( no rapes)

          ….we lived in a society which cared and looked out for us….

          …while I am sure there were rapes and rapists there didnt seem to be too many of them around..it certainly wasn’t an open season on young girls!

        • Huginn 36.2.2.3

          ‘Guess what. None of us were raped.’

          ffs
          what fucking planet are you on?

          Serial rapists attacked women and children with impunity. It took the police years and years to notice – to stop accusing ‘alleged’ victims of making up stories – and to do some basic police work.

          Children in institutional care were raped as a matter of course by their carers and by other children. Priests and pastors preyed on their congregations – the religious orders are still trying to sort things out.

          Rape within marriage wasn’t even a crime before 1986

          When your peers were raped, they kept it to themselves because they knew they’d be grilled by the police and they’d be accused of lying, they’d be told that they brought it on themselves, and they’d be told that there wasn’t enough evidence.

          If it got to court, they would be asked if they were virgins – their sexual history would be examined and reported in the press.

          I can’t believe that you’ve forgotten what it was like.

          The problem with the culture is that it hasn’t changed

          • Anne 36.2.2.3.1

            Huggin. You’re mixing up two separate situations. I was talking about the massive cultural change brought about by neoliberalism. And ‘my peers’ were those within my immediate social range.

            Yes, all those things happened in institutions and within marriages and there were many unreported rape cases for the reasons you gave. But not only did we not know about them (it’s all come out since) but in those days the culture of rape was not as extensive and didn’t cover the full spectrum of society in the way it does today.

            • weka 36.2.2.3.1.1

              Anne, I’m curious how old you are.

              I do agree that neoliberalism has made things worse. But I don’t agree that the extent of rape was less before that. I think it’s changed.

              I had a friend pack raped at a party while she was very drunk. She was 15, that was in the early 80s. The event was framed at the time by everyone as her being a sexually available young woman so why wouldn’t all those men fuck her. The main thing about the RB case that stands out to me as being different than the past is the enabling aspects of technology and internet culture (those are no insignificant changes).

              “didn’t cover the full spectrum of society in the way it does today.”

              Can you please explain what you mean by that?

              • Anne

                Let me give you an example weka. In the 1960s, a girlfriend and I hitch-hiked around the South Island. We travelled down the west coast of the island to Invercargill, then returned via the east coast. En route we were picked up by mostly young men – a couple of them actually took us to their parents’ home for meals. It was common practise for young girls in their late teens (or older) to hitch-hike in those days, usually in pairs but sometimes on their own. We felt safe and had our parents’ blessing. Could young women do that today? No way.

                The main thing about the RB case that stands out to me as being different than the past is the enabling aspects of technology and internet culture (those are no insignificant changes).

                Yes, I agree there. It’s made it so much easier to indulge in these practises than was the case in my youthful era. You mention the 1980s. That marked the start of the change in the culture and I has some bad experiences of harassment and intimidation (some sexual in nature) during that decade.

                • karol

                  I hitch hiked with a female friend back in the early 70s in the South island. It wasn’t considered that safe. I recall during one ride my friend & I realsied were were in a car (with a het couple) that was the same model as police were looking for in some rape/murder case. Gave us a bit of a fright.

                  I also hitched around southern Europe with a friend, and the length of England on my own back in the 70s. I was aware that many people saw it as a risky thing today. I and we did have some experiences of sexual harassment on one or two rides that were a bit scary at the time.

                • weka

                  I hitchhiked alot in the 80s. I don’t think it’s less safe now, so am curious as to why you think it is.

                  I do agree that many of us who are older now felt safer in the past, and that issues around safety have changed alot. But I know women that still hitchhike on their own.

                  I seem to remember there was a high profile case of a woman on the West Coast who are raped and murdered in the 70s? Was she hitchhiking? But women get raped and murdered in their homes so I never saw that as the issue. It’s always been about risk assessment. I live in the rural South Island though, maybe I would feel differently if I lived in a big city?

                  You mention the 1980s. That marked the start of the change in the culture and I has some bad experiences of harassment and intimidation (some sexual in nature) during that decade.

                  But I came of age in the early 80s before neoliberalism had shifted NZ to the right and to greed and selfishness. So I don’t think the sexual violence I saw was part of that. And I had a pretty sheltered upbrining by many standards, there was much worse stuff going on that I was unaware of at the time.

          • Chooky 36.2.2.3.2

            @Huginn….I guess we were the lucky ones….and not trying to minimise the vile rapes and abuse of children, young girls and women that was going on then and has been for centuries …… but HIDDEN!…and which has since come out and is continuing to come out

            …You are right to make that point!

            However given the criticism here on this site …..of what young girls wear and the arguments that showing legs invites rape and girls have to be careful what they wear

            …I had to point out that we were pretty free in what we wore some years ago ( I remember teenagers in skimpy bikinis at the swimming pool and beach for example) … and it wasn’t considered a come-on to males or an invitation to rape! ( I would have been horrified at the thought, as would have been my family!)

            …maybe we were innocent …but then again I wasnt that innocent ….I read Germaine Greer when I was still at high school and wished that she was my Mother! ( my poor real Mother!…ha ha) imo…in some ways we were both more innocent and more sophisticated than the present generation…feminism was a force to be reckoned with..we were on a crest of a wave…’Reclaim the Night’ marches etc

            ……one reason why I think we were safer is because there wasnt such a culture of alcohol and socialising at such a very young age…..and we didnt really socialise with the opposite sex until we left high school.

            …also life was simpler without wired social media , porn and music which gives women a poor image….as objects for the taking

            …also society then was more socialist , caring, valuing and supportive … today people are trashed by neoliberalism…collateral damage in the pursuit of materialism and consumerism

            • karol 36.2.2.3.2.1

              I don’t know that it was actually that much safer. I recall my mother warning me that you could never trust any men. They could seem sound and then suddenly they could pounce. At the time I kind of laughed privately at what seemed like a bit of an antiquated attitude. But I have come to realise, with experience, that women have always found a need to protect themselves and negotiated dangers for women within a patriarchal society.

              I recall some chants on late 1970s feminist demos in London:

              However we dress, wherever we go, “Yes” means “Yes” and “No” means “No”.

            • Anne 36.2.2.3.2.2

              …society then was more socialist , caring, valuing and supportive … today people are trashed by neoliberalism…collateral damage in the pursuit of materialism and consumerism.

              Nail…Head Chooky.

              I’m talking about the 1960s and I think you are too. It was the second decade of the golden era – the 1950/60s. A wonderful time to be growing up. The first signs that things were changing came in the 1970s, and by the 1980s (the start of neoliberalism) it was downhill all the way.

              David Lange recognised it and that is why he paused for his ‘cup of tea’. First he was taken for a ride by the neolibs in the Labour Party, then they pilloried him for trying to halt the process. A very sad time indeed and we are politically and socially still reaping the consequences.

              • weka

                I agree with that :-)

                And that will have impacted on sexual violence (and sexuality) for sure. I just think we have to be careful not to see high levels of sexual violence in our communities as something that happened since neoliberalism. That you didn’t see sexual violence in the 60s doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.

                • Anne

                  You’re right weka. It was there but we didn’t see it and we certainly were not aware of the institutional sexual crimes. In some respects those victims (only children too) were the unluckiest of all. They have had to live with the terrible hurt and the associated stigma for decades without any acknowledgement or apologies for what they went through.

                  My original intention was never to cover up those historic crimes but rather to point out that the majority of young people in my youth were not exposed to the same level of rape, and other deviant behaviour, as young people are today. Overall we grew up in a safer society.

                  • Tat Loo (CV)

                    You have young people grow up in a inhumane society with inhumane guidance, and this is what you get.

                    And the 50’s and 60’s was far more sexist a time with far more restrictive societal expectations affecting both men and women. And yes in certain ways it was a safer, more predictable environment to grow up in, not least because of some of the community and family strengths which still existed then.

                  • miravox

                    I think you must have had good parents and lived in a good place, Anne and exuded a level of self confidence I could never muster. I was a very young teen in the early 70s – I was into the glitter and maxi skirts, myself – dysfunctional family, hopeless area, no parental input into anyone’s lives, and there was a culture pretty similar to the Roast Busters going on then.

                    Lots of really good guys, but lots of real misogynist take who you can rape stuff going on too. Just like the paedos I came across a few years earlier, they liked the shy, vulnerable types. Something people like greywarbler don’t understand.

                    Stay loud girls! (But only in a group so the the misogynists can’t act on the lesson they want to give you for being too out there – they always have an excuse). As this thread has shown, though, most guys do not think like that, which is heartening.

                    Thanks Bill and Karol for these posts, although I find it difficult to deal with this stuff, it’s the affirmative comments that will in the end be what is remembered.

              • Huginn

                Anne, Chooky . . .

                Dame Margaret Bazley’s Commission of Inquiry into Police Conduct was explicitly precluded from examining allegations of misconduct prior to 1979.

                Just think about that.

    • Rogue Trooper 36.3

      an Enquiry you say karol (wouldn’t want to be in those boys shoes, or bunks). More peeling off the real “scabs” of the gangrenous blue-boy culture… yuck!

  36. idlegus 37

    “Based on information revealed tonight on the way underage sexual violation case has been handled, we will be referring it to the IPCA”. – Jacinda Ardern

  37. Tracey 38

    The police might have believed her but know that in court it will be her word against a number of boys. Also they perhaps pursued a lune of questioning similar to that done by defence lawyers. However that early in a complaint process seems odd. Presumably as soon as they saw footage they went straight back to the victim and said now we have enough evidence will you make a statement so we can question them and issue search warrants.

    anne
    re your post about hot pants. Imo its not as big a culture change as you might think. Clothing choice rarely features in most rapes or sexual assaults.

  38. karol 39

    Kyle MacDonald, psychotherapist:

    Mates don’t let mates abuse women and children.

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    Occasionally erudite | 22-10
  • Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 – what really happened?
    Three months after the loss of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over Ukraine the world is no wiser about what, and who, caused this crash. Well, we have the preliminary report but this only confirmed the bleeding obvious (“the aircraft was penetrated by a...
    Open Parachute | 22-10
  • It’s about history… & votes & elephants
    I think I'll start at the end. Andrew ended his recent post like this:...
    Pundit | 22-10
  • More than 20 jobs saved at Auckland faculty of education
    The union and TEU members at the University of Auckland have managed to reduce proposed compulsory job cuts at the faculty of education from 35 down to just two. Local TEU organiser Enzo Giordani said feisty staff with a staunch...
    Tertiary Education Union | 22-10
  • Gordon Campbell on the tokenism of New Zealand‘s role against Islamic Sta...
    Was John Key born lucky or what? Political performance tends to be judged on three things – the unemployment rate, the petrol price at the pump, and the market value of your house. This year, Key was lucky enough to...
    Gordon Campbell | 22-10
  • MIT chaos following job cut announcement
    Chaos reigns at MIT following last week’s announcement that the polytechnic will cut 68 full time equivalent jobs, according to local TEU organiser Chan Dixon. Over a thousand people have signed a petition opposing job cuts at the polytechnic. Staff are...
    Tertiary Education Union | 22-10
  • Auckland staff call for Living Wage
    The Living Wage Network held a rally and barbecue this week calling on the University of Auckland to become first New Zealand’s Living Wage university, by paying all staff, both directly employed and contracted staff, a living wage of $18.80...
    Tertiary Education Union | 22-10
  • Otago debates one off lump sum
    The University of Otago has not offered its staff a pay rise on their rates at collective agreement negotiations, opting instead to offer a one-off lump sum of $1000, which will not go ‘on the rates’. TEU members at the...
    Tertiary Education Union | 22-10
  • Speaker: David Fisher: The OIA arms race
    Good afternoon everyone. I am David Fisher, a reporter with the New Zealand Herald. I have worked as a journalist for 25 years, mainly in New Zealand but across a number of other countries.I think there's some value before I...
    Public Address | 22-10
  • Employment law first act of new government
    As the prime minister promised, his government has rushed to push through its Employment Relations Amendment Bill as one of its very first actions this week. The bill, which union members and workers have actively opposed for the last year,...
    Tertiary Education Union | 22-10
  • 7 inspiring stories of communities taking action for climate
    Stories of communities taking action for the climate and refusing to accept the plans of polluting fossil fuel companies are happening more and more. Here are just a few inspiring climate acts of courage taken by doctors, villagers, students, farmers,...
    Greenpeace NZ blog | 22-10
  • Blowin’ in the wind
    Wind power has a pivotal role to play in the world's energy supply over the next few years. By providing huge amounts of clean, affordable power, it can buy us time in the fight against global warming while revolutions in...
    Greenpeace NZ blog | 22-10
  • Wanted: more fertiliser and horse manure
    Equality enriches the soil, just like manure, but a lot less stinky (For our opening week, we asked all our contributors to think about why they’re On The Left, and what the next three years holds for the left, the...
    On the Left | 22-10
  • PM gets it right about Auckland, mostly
    Prime Minister John Key is dead right when he said: First home buyers in Auckland might have to consider an apartment in order to get onto the property ladder, Prime Minister John Key says. After all, the locational efficiencies of...
    Transport Blog | 22-10
  • John Key’s Multiple Identities
    Question to the Prime MinisterRussel Norman: How many times since November 2008 has he spoken with Cameron Slater on the phone and how many times, if any, has he txted him?Prime Minister: None in my capacity as Prime Minister.John Key...
    Local Bodies | 22-10
  • Where is the Middle?
    When Labour decides who will be the next leader, it is of interest to all of us involved in politics. After all the person chosen could be New Zealand's next Prime Minister. So the debate on the nature of the...
    Pundit | 22-10
  • Labour Needs A Civil Union With The Greens
    Much has been written about where Labour needs to go from here. One issue which doesn’t seem to have generated much interest is what do they do with the Greens?...
    Pundit | 22-10
  • More Latté Than Lager: Reflections on Grant Robertson’s Campaign Lau...
    The People's Flag Is ... Mint Green? Grant Robertson and Jacinda Ardern (whom Twitter immediately dubbed Gracinda) pose in Mint Green for one of the glossy women's magazines. In a non-revolutionary era, superficial is about as deep as it gets. BIKERS?...
    Bowalley Road | 22-10
  • Auckland’s disturbing panopticon
    Earlier in the month, we learned that Auckland was planning to install a creepy panopticon, complete with ANPR and facial recognition, for vague and undefinied purposes. This produced a flurry of OIA requests via FYI, and one of them (for...
    No Right Turn | 22-10
  • How to Sell a House: Free Advice from a couple of experts. (Self-Described!...
      In the 32 years that Judy and I have been together we have bought and sold quite a few houses. Six years is the longest we  lived in any one of those houses.  Our friends regard us as gypsies. The...
    Brian Edwards | 22-10
  • Judith Collins’ two-tier OIA service
    Back in August, we learned that sewerblogger Cameron Slater was receiving extraordinary OIA service from then-Minister of Justice Judith Collins, in one case receiving a response to a request within 37 minutes. But it wasn't just extraordinary for its speed;...
    No Right Turn | 22-10
  • Fluoridation – a racist conspiracy?
    Political activists campaigning on health issues often resort to scaremongering. This can be dangerous – especially when their stories have no real basis but rely on selective and distorted information. Paul Connett’s Fluoride Action Network (FAN) often resorts to this sort of scaremongering. Now...
    Open Parachute | 22-10
  • What have people in Africa been doing since the Ebola outbreak started?
    by Andy Warren In a word – dying.  But not from Ebola. According to WHO data it looks like this: However, fear and anxiety are the sexiest ingredients of any story today – rather than boring facts. Ebola fits perfectly...
    Redline | 22-10
  • What have people in Africa been doing since the Ebola outbreak started?
    by Andy Warren In a word – dying.  But not from Ebola. According to WHO data it looks like this: However, fear and anxiety are the sexiest ingredients of any story today – rather than boring facts. Ebola fits perfectly...
    Redline | 22-10
  • Unbelieveable
    This week we've seen the Prime Minister desperately trying to cover up his war plans by pretending that Obama's war-planning meeting was just a "regular" meeting of defence partners which we just happened to be attending. Over on Kiwipolitico Pablo...
    No Right Turn | 22-10
  • Are the police using ANPR to target the disabled?
    The media this morning is full of stories of the paralysed man caught driving using a walking stick to reach the pedals. Its good that he's off the road, but there's one point in the story which raises questions:The driver...
    No Right Turn | 22-10
  • Like a cult…
    When a party loses badly, the public expects a bit of sorrowful wailing and beating of breasts. To say “This is what we did wrong, and this is how we’ll fix it” is an important part of restoring trust with...
    Occasionally erudite | 21-10
  • Does Money make Money?
    ‘Rock star economist’ or ‘inequality messiah’ French economist Thomas Piketty’s book Capital in the Twenty First Century has outsold every other book on the planet this year. The book is so popular because it floats the idea that money makes...
    Gareth’s World | 21-10
  • Cycling: the benefits of complete networks
    A group of New Zealand researchers recently published an excellent paper on the costs and benefits of investing in a complete cycle network and safe street design. Their paper, which is available online, found that: the benefits of all the...
    Transport Blog | 21-10
  • Life isn’t fair. But it should be.
    (For our opening week, we asked all our contributors to think about why they’re On The Left, and what the next three years holds for the left, the government, and New Zealand.) I was not an angelic child. My mother...
    On the Left | 21-10
  • Up here on Planet Key
    ...
    On the Left | 21-10
  • TDB Today: Reasons not to be cheerful, Part #272b
    In my post at The Daily Blog this week I take inspiration from the great Ian Dury, and reflect on the disconnect between political ambition and the state of the climate system as it continues to warm. It will be...
    Hot Topic | 21-10
  • Otago dairy farms fail basics
    I’m really privileged to take on the responsibility of the water portfolio. Eugenie Sage has done excellent work in this area in the last term of parliament and provided a great platform for further work. Last Parliament my bill to...
    frogblog | 21-10
  • Tracking the performance of the 1 hour Xero model
    DISCLOSURE: I hold Xero shares.  Last year I built a very quick and dirty spreadsheet to analyse Xero, and wrote Valuing Xero – in one hour. The article was cross-posted to the NBR, where it attracted far more comments. More on those...
    Lance Wiggs | 21-10
  • Hard News: Media Take: The creeping politicisation of the OIA
    Brent Edwards' story last week on official advice to ministers on child poverty was interesting not only for its substance, but its circumstance.Edwards explained on Morning Report that he originally requested the first of the documents (some of them now nearly...
    Public Address | 21-10
  • Emails from the candidates
    As part of the NZ Labour leadership election, the candidates are able to email the party membership and sell themselves. Knowing how messy Labour’s membership list can be, I thought I’d reproduce the emails in case anyone wants to use...
    Progress report | 21-10
  • Gordon Campbell on Pharmac, Gough Whitlam and Sleater-Kinney
    Ridiculous reported comments on RNZ this morning by Trade Minister Tim Groser, as he sought to dampen down concerns about yesterday’s leaked draft of the IP chapter of ther Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations. According to Groser, ‘extreme’ positions are common...
    Gordon Campbell | 21-10
  • @akltransport – Please fill in a form
    Social media has become an important tool for many organisations in how they engage with their customers. It’s become a tool for both marketing and customer service, and there are a number of examples organisations who do it right. Some...
    Transport Blog | 21-10
  • Questions and Answers – October 22
    Press Release – Office of the Clerk Child PovertyGovernment Priorities and Policies 1. Hon ANNETTE KING (Acting Deputy Leader – Labour) to the Deputy Prime Minister : Will he make reducing child poverty a Better Public Service target given the...
    Its our future | 21-10
  • Alpaca Metropolitan – On The Left Special!
    ...
    On the Left | 21-10
  • Video Against Poverty
    Schoolgirls in Kalimpong, West Bengal, India.  Photo / Julie Zhu This is week two of my givealittle.co.nz campaign Video Against Poverty and I'm more than 2/3 of the way to my goal of $2600.00.  This has been totally unexpected and is a really...
    Notes from the edge | 21-10
  • Why I’m Left
    I’m Left all the way down to my bones. My bone marrow is made up of lots of microscopic Karl Marx mustaches. It’s partly why I’m so curmudgeonly. When I was born I was brought home from the hospital to...
    Tangerina | 21-10
  • Gordon Campbell on Pharmac, Gough Whitlam and Sleater-Kinney
    Column – Gordon Campbell Ridiculous reported comments on RNZ this morning by Trade Minister Tim Groser, as he sought to dampen down concerns about yesterdays leaked draft of the IP chapter of ther Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations.Gordon Campbell on Pharmac,...
    Its our future | 21-10
  • Don’t cough on me
    It used to be acceptable to go to work or travel with a cough or the flu. That’s been changing over the last 10-20 years, and people who cough and sniffle in public are increasingly treated like people who smoke in the...
    Lance Wiggs | 21-10
  • Some might just come by train.
        As a Waikato girl by birth, Aucklander by nature, and living in Hamilton by choice, I’ve long being a supporter a regular train gig chugging the willing and the weary between the hustle and pace of Auckland and...
    Politically Corrected | 21-10
  • Why I’m Left: happiness, solidarity and community
    (For our opening week, we asked all our contributors to think about why they’re On The Left, and what the next three years holds for the left, the government, and New Zealand.) I’m Left all the way down to my...
    On the Left | 21-10
  • Curiosity’s historic comet photo
    Photo Credit: Curiosity on Mars – NASA Rover Opportunity Views Comet Near Mars. According to NASA: NASA’s Mars Exploration Rover Opportunity captured images of a comet passing much closer to Mars than any previous known comet flyby of Earth or Mars....
    Open Parachute | 21-10
  • Green Party expresses sympathy for Canadian shooting victims
    The Green Party expressed its solidarity with Canadians and the Canadian Parliament today, offering its sympathy for family and friends of the soldier killed in the attack. "Our thoughts are with all those caught up in the shooting in Canada...
    Greens | 22-10
  • Prime Minister must honour his promise
    It’s time for John Key to honour his promise to the Pike River families, says Labour MP Damien O’Connor.  “International mine experts have confirmed the view of WorkSafe New Zealand and many miners on the West Coast that it is...
    Labour | 22-10
  • EPA finds Shell Oil illegally drilled two wells
    The Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) has concluded that Shell Todd Oil Services (STOS) broke the law by drilling two wells without a marine consent off the coast of Taranaki, the Green Party said today. The EPA conducted an inspection of...
    Greens | 22-10
  • Soaring rail use in Auckland shows need for rail link now
    News that Aucklanders overtook Wellingtonians as the biggest train users is further evidence the Government needs to start work on the Auckland City Rail Link now, the Green Party said today.Auckland Transport said today that in the year to September,...
    Greens | 22-10
  • Tea breaks gone by lunch time
    Labour is calling for an eleventh hour reprieve to employment law changes which could see thousands of Kiwi workers not covered by collective agreements lose their smoko breaks, its spokesperson on Labour Issues Andrew Little says.“How cynical that on the...
    Labour | 21-10
  • Metiria Turei to lead fight on feeding hungry children
    Green Party Co-leader Metiria Turei is urging all political parties to support the Feed the Kids Bill which she inherited today from Mana leader Hone Harawira.Mrs Turei, who leads the Green Party's work on child poverty, will pick up Mr...
    Greens | 21-10
  • Otago dairy farms fail basics
    I’m really privileged to take on the responsibility of the water portfolio. Eugenie Sage has done excellent work in this area in the last term of parliament and provided a great platform for further work. Last Parliament my bill to...
    Greens | 21-10
  • A mighty totara has fallen across the Tasman
    The New Zealand Labour Party expresses deep sadness at the death of former Australian prime minister Gough Whitlam, aged 98. “Today a great totara has fallen across the Tasman,” Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says....
    Labour | 21-10
  • Note to National: Must deliver on child poverty
    John Key and his Government will be held to its promise to make child poverty a priority, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “In its priority-setting speech today the Government stated child poverty would be a major focus for...
    Labour | 21-10
  • New Analysis show Government cut tertiary education funding
    New analysis done by the Green Party today shows the Government has made cuts to funding of tertiary education since 2008.Figures compiled by the Parliamentary Library show that between 2009 and 2015 Government funding to Tertiary Institutions dropped by 4...
    Greens | 21-10
  • Students doing it tough as fees rise again
    The Government is making it increasingly difficult for Kiwis to gain tertiary education as fees continue to rise and access to student support becomes even more restricted, Labour’s Tertiary Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “Steven Joyce is shutting a generation...
    Labour | 20-10
  • Key misled New Zealand on Iraq deployment
      John Key was misleading New Zealanders prior to the election when he ruled out New Zealand special forces being deployed to Iraq, says Labour Defence Spokesperson Phil Goff.  “Post-election he has cynically disregarded that by saying that deployment of...
    Labour | 20-10
  • Swearing about swearing the oath
    Yesterday, I was swearing. Swearing the Parliamentary oath, that is. But, under my breath, I was also quietly swearing about the archaic, colonial form of that oath and its inappropriateness for today’s Aotearoa New Zealand. To be permitted to speak...
    Greens | 20-10
  • Damning report on Ruataniwha dam numbers
    When I presented my submission to the Board of Inquiry on the Tukituki Catchment Proposal I compared the proposed 83 metre high Ruataniwha dam with the Clyde Dam and noted the risk of cost blowouts in the construction process.  The...
    Greens | 20-10
  • Church congratulated on child poverty stand
    The efforts by the bishops of the Anglican Church to ensure that the issue of child poverty is not forgotten is a call to all New Zealanders to take action, says Labour’s Interfaith-Dialogue Spokesperson, Su’a William Sio.   “I think...
    Labour | 19-10
  • Labour names Review Team
    Labour’s New Zealand Council has appointed Bryan Gould as Convenor of its post-General Election Review.  He will be joined on the Review Team by Hon Margaret Wilson, Stacey Morrison and Brian Corban (see further biographical details here). The Review Team...
    Labour | 19-10
  • Labour backs urban development plans
    Auckland Council’s plan to set up an urban development agency is to be applauded and central government should get behind it to make it a success, Labour’s Auckland Issues spokesperson Phil Twyford says. Auckland Council CEO Stephen Town has indicated plans...
    Labour | 18-10
  • New Zealand can be rightly proud of seat on Security Council
    Gaining a seat on the United Nation’s Security Council shows the sort of standing that New Zealand has in the world and the quality of the long campaign that we ran over nearly a decade, says Foreign Affairs spokesperson David...
    Labour | 16-10
  • NZ has opportunity on UN Security Council
    New Zealand has an opportunity to make a major contribution to the strengthening of international law and institutional capacity through its upcoming two-year tenure on the United Nations Security Council, Green Party spokesperson on global affairs, Dr Kennedy Graham said...
    Greens | 16-10
  • MPI still dragging the chain over causes of food bug
    The Ministry of Primary Industries’ release of Environmental Science and Research’s initial reports regarding the sources of a nasty stomach bug will be little comfort to the 127 people affected by it, Labour’s Food Safety spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. “This...
    Labour | 16-10
  • Treasury officials should try working without food
    The Green Party is challenging Treasury officials to work for a week without eating properly, in light of their advice to Government that a food in schools programme is not needed."Treasury's advice was that providing food for children in schools...
    Greens | 15-10
  • Councils need to better protect our drinking water
    Environment Canterbury (ECan) is proposing several variations to its regional land and water plan that will allow for increased nutrient and other pollution from irrigation and intensive agriculture on the Canterbury Plains. Commissioners are hearing submissions on Variation 1 to...
    Greens | 15-10
  • National needs to commit to making NZ workers safe
    The National Government must do more to help make New Zealand workplaces a safer place to work in, Green Party industrial relations spokesperson Denise Roche said today.Data released by Statistics New Zealand today showed that workers in the fishing and...
    Greens | 15-10
  • Key commits to deployment before consultation or analysis
    John Key’s offer to consult Opposition parties on whether to deploy New Zealand forces against ISIS looks increasingly like a PR exercise only, says Labour’s Defence spokesperson, Phil Goff. “The presence of New Zealand’s Chief of Defence Force at a...
    Labour | 15-10
  • National must end ideological opposition to raising income
    If John Key is serious about tackling child poverty he must approach it with an open mind, and overcome his ideological block to raising incomes as a solution, the Green Party said today.Papers released to Radio New Zealand today show...
    Greens | 14-10
  • Pentagon links climate change and terrorism
    Yesterday the Pentagon launched a plan to deal with a threat that “poses immediate risks to national security”; one that “will affect the Department of Defense’s ability to defend the nation”. It wasn’t referring to Ebola or ISIS. It was...
    Greens | 14-10
  • Four Nominees for Labour’s Leadership
    As at 5pm today four valid nominations had been received for the position of Labour Leader, as follows: Andrew Little(nominated by Poto Williams and Iain Lees-Galloway) Nanaia Mahuta(nominated by Louisa Wall and Su’a William Sio) David Parker(nominated by Damien O’Connor...
    Labour | 14-10
  • Green Party calls for consultation over terrorism law changes
    The Green Party has today written to the Prime Minister asking him to engage in wider consultation prior to changing any laws as a result of the recently announced terrorism law reviews, said the Green Party today. In a letter...
    Greens | 14-10
  • MPI must name product and supermarket chain
    The Ministry of Primary Industries must name the product responsible for severe gastroenteritis affecting people around the country, and the supermarket chain distributing it, Labour’s Food Safety spokesperson Damien O’Connor says. “The Ministry seems to be more concerned about protecting...
    Labour | 13-10
  • John Key dishonest about reasons for wanting to change terrorism law
    John Key is misleading the public to push through terrorism law changes under urgency, the Green Party said today. On Sunday, John Key stated that it is not illegal for someone to fight overseas for a terrorist group, such as...
    Greens | 12-10
  • Law changes shaping up to be worse than first thought
    The Prime Minister needs to be up front about exactly what changes he is planning to make to the Employment Relations  Amendment Bill, Labour's spokesperson on Labour Issues Andrew Little says.Interviewed on Q&A yesterday John Key said he did not...
    Labour | 12-10
  • Rapists, not Tinder, the threat to women
    Blame for rape and sexual assault should only ever be laid at the door of the perpetrator, not dating services or the actions of women themselves, Labour’s Associate Police spokesperson Kelvin Davis says. “Tinder is not the problem and women...
    Labour | 09-10
  • Safer Journeys For People Who Cycle
    You have a rare opportunity to tell the people who are making the decisions on cycling how to make it better. The Cycling Safety Panel is seeking feedback on their draft recommendations for improving the safety of cycling in New...
    Greens | 08-10
  • Subsidising more pollution will undermine water clean-up plan at Te Waihora...
    In 2010, NIWA found Canterbury’s Te Waihora/Lake Ellesmere had the worst nutrient status of 140 lakes around New Zealand that it measured. In 2011, the National Government committed to spending $15 million across the country through the Fresh Start for...
    Greens | 08-10
  • Adding value not herbicides
    The HT swedes, and other brassicas, might seem like a good idea to farmers struggling against weeds but like the GE road, is this the path we want our agriculture to be treading? The Federated Farmers President, Dr William Rolleston...
    Greens | 07-10
  • ‘Blame the Planner’ bizarre approach to child poverty
    The National Government is stooping to a bizarre new low in blaming "planning processes" for poverty and inequality, after spending six years doing nothing about either the housing market or child poverty, the Green Party said today. Finance Minister Bill...
    Greens | 07-10
  • Media Advisory
    MANA Leader, Hone Harawira will not be available to speak with media today regarding his release “Recount Just One Step To restoring Credibility”. He is however available for media comment tomorrow, Tuesday the 8th of October, all media arrangements are...
    Mana | 07-10
  • RECOUNT JUST ONE STEP TO RESTORING CREDIBILITY
    “I have applied for a judicial recount of the votes in the Tai Tokerau election because it is one step in trying to restore credibility to the electoral process in the north, and, I suspect, in all other Maori electorates...
    Mana | 07-10
  • MANA SEEKS TAI TOKERAU RECOUNT
    The MANA Movement is supporting Leader Hone Harawira’s application for a judicial re-count in the Te Tai Tokerau electorate for the 2014 general election. President Lisa McNab says there are a number of serious issues of concern regarding the ability...
    Mana | 07-10
  • MANA to fight mass privatisation of state housing
    Announcements over the past 12 hours from the Minister responsible for Housing New Zealand, Bill English, and Minister for Social Housing, Paula Bennett, make clear the government’s intention for the mass privatisation of state housing. This comes during the middle...
    Mana | 07-10
  • Journalists have right to protect sources
    Legal authorities must respect the right of journalist Nicky Hager to protect the source of his material for his Dirty Politics book under Section 68 of the Evidence Act, Acting Labour Leader David Parker says. “It is crucial in an...
    Labour | 06-10
  • It shouldn’t take the Army to house the homeless
    National’s move to speed up its state house sell-off shows it is bankrupt of new ideas, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. “National has been in office for six years, yet the housing crisis has got worse every month and...
    Labour | 06-10
  • Government must lift social housing supply, not shuffle the deck chairs
    National's decision to shift the state provision of housing to third parties is a smokescreen for the Government decreasing the provision of affordable housing, the Green Party said today."What National should be doing is increasing the supply of both social...
    Greens | 06-10
  • Election 2014 – the final count
    While we have to wait for the final booth level counts we can now see how well we did in the specials and look at electorate level data. First off special votes (and disallowed/recounted votes etc). There was a change...
    Greens | 06-10
  • We need more houses, not Ministers
    The Government’s decision to have three housing Ministers will create a dog’s breakfast of the portfolio and doesn’t bode well for fixing the country’s housing crisis, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “New Zealanders need more houses, not more Ministers....
    Labour | 05-10
  • MANA’S CHALLENGE TO THE 51st PARLIAMENT
    Ten years ago I led 50,000 Maori on the historic FORESHORE AND SEABED MARCH from Te Rerenga Wairua to the very steps of this parliament, in a march against the greatest land grab in the history of this country –...
    Mana | 03-10
  • Is this really necessary?
    No one denies chief executives should be well paid for their skills and experience, but it is the efforts of all employees which contribute to company profits, Labour’s Acting Leader David Parker says. “Salaries paid to chief executives come at...
    Labour | 02-10
  • Lyttelton Port workers also deserve pay rises
    Hard slog by Lyttelton Port workers contributed to strong financial growth for the company and they deserve to be rewarded for their work as much as its chief executive, says Labour’s Acting Leader David Parker. “Lyttelton Port chief executive Peter...
    Labour | 02-10
  • Māori Party must seek guarantees on Māori seats
    Labour is calling on the Māori Party to ensure protection of the Māori seats is part of its coalition deal with National which is being considering this weekend, Labour’s Māori Affairs spokesperson Nanaia Mahuta says. “For the third consecutive term,...
    Labour | 02-10
  • Donaghys job losses another blow to Dunedin
    The loss of 30 jobs from Donaghys rope and twine factory is yet another blow to the people and economy of Dunedin, says Dunedin South Labour MP Clare Curran. “Donaghys was founded in 1876; the company has survived two world...
    Labour | 02-10
  • 5AA Australia – NZ on UN Security Council + Dirty Politics Lingers On
    5AA Australia: Selwyn Manning and Peter Godfrey deliver their weekly bulletin Across The Ditch. General round up of over night talkback issues: Thongs, Jandals and flip-flops… ISSUE 1: New Zealand has been successful in its campaign to become a non...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • When I mean me, I mean my office & when I call whaleoil I mean not as m...
    This. Is. Ludicrous. Green Party co-leader Russel Norman put the first of what are likely to be many questions about Mr Key’s relationship with Slater, asking him how many times he had phoned or texted the blogger since 2008. “None...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • A brief word on describing the Government as ‘boring and bland’
    The narrative being sown is that this Government will be a boring and bland third term. Boring and bland. Since the election, Key has announced he is privatising 30% of state houses without reinvesting any of that money back into housing society’s most...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • More Latté Than Lager: Reflections on Grant Robertson’s Campaign Launch.
    BIKERS? SERIOUSLY! Had Grant Robertson’s campaign launch been organised by Phil Goff? Was this a pitch for the votes of what few Waitakere Men remain in the Labour Party? Was I even at the right place? Well, yes, I was....
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • About Curwen Ares Rolinson
    Curwen Ares Rolinson – Curwen Ares Rolinson is a firebrand young nationalist presently engaged in acts of political resistance deep behind enemy lines amidst the leafy boughs of Epsom. He is affiliated with the New Zealand First Party; although his...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • About Kelly Ellis
    Kelly Ellis.Kelly Ellis – As a child, Kelly Ellis didn’t so much fall into the cracks, but willfully wriggled her way into them. Ejected from Onslow College – a big job in the 70s – Kelly worked in car factories,...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • About Kate Davis
    Kate Davis.Kate Davis – Having completed her BA in English and Politics, Kate is now starting her MA. Kate works as a volunteer advocate at Auckland Action Against Poverty and previously worked for the New Zealand Prostitutes Collective. Kate writes...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • Parker does a Shearer – oh for a Labour Leader who can challenge msm fals...
    Sigh. It seems David Parker has done a Shearer… Like a cult and too red – Parker on LabourLabour leadership contender David Parker says Labour borders on feeling like “a cult” and must look at its branding – including its...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • A brief word on the hundreds of millions NZ is spending on the secret intel...
    The enormity of the mass surveillance state NZ Government’s have built carries a huge price tag… Kiwis pay $103m ‘membership fee’ for spyingThe $103 million taxpayer funding of New Zealand’s intelligence agencies is effectively a membership fee for joining the...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • Where. Is. Jason. Ede?
    Where. Is. Jason. Ede?...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • Labour’s Din of Inequity
    Watching Labour’s leadership candidates on Q+A on Sunday, I noticed the ongoing use of terms like “opportunity” and “aspiration”, and “party of the workers”. What do these mean? We glean much from Labour, and from the media about Labour, but not...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • “Blue-Greenwash” fails the test when it comes to endangered dolphins
    National’s pre-election promises saw some wins for the environment – perhaps as the party sought to appease its “Blue-Green” voters and broaden its popular appeal. Some of the ecological gains were a long time in the making, overdue even– such...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • Reasons not to be cheerful, Part #272b
    Why don’t you get back into bed? The next few years — the rest of this century — are not going to be pretty. There is an obvious disconnect between any remaining political ambition to fix climate change and the...
    The Daily Blog | 21-10
  • OIA protocols and official advice ignored to hide Child Poverty
    It might not seem so now, but child poverty was a major election issue. What a pity we did not have the full debate. In that debate it would have been very helpful to have seen the Ministry of Social...
    The Daily Blog | 20-10
  • Previewing the 4 candidates for Leader of the Labour Party
    The extraordinary outbursts by Shearer last week highlights just how toxic that Caucus is. Shearer was on every major media platform as the ABC attack dog tearing into Cunliffe in the hope of diminishing Cunliffe’s support of Little by tearing...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – the sudden explosion of ‘left’ blogs
    Time to Teach or more people will suffer from P.A.I.D. Political And Intellectual Dysmorphia.I was on the Twitter and a guy followed me so of course I did the polite thing and followed him back. He wrote a blog so...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • Ego vs Eco
    Ego vs Eco...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • We can’t let the Roastbuster case slip away
    Those of us (like me) left with hope that the police would aggressively follow through on the large amount of evidence on offer to them (let’s not forget they forgot they even had some at one point) in the Roastbusters...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • Food, shelter and medicine instead of bombs and bullets
    The on-going conflict across the Middle East – due in large part to the US-led invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq – has created another humanitarian crisis of biblical proportion. The essentials of life are desperately needed in Iraq and Syria...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • The politics of electorate accommodations
    National’s electorate accommodations with ACT and United Future were a big factor in it winning re-election. Interestingly, there is another electorate accommodation scenario whereby the centre-left could have come out on top, even with the same distribution of party votes....
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • Why you should join the TPPA Action on 8 November
    On 8 November 2014, thousands of Kiwis will take part in the International Day of Action to protest the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA). The rally cry for us is TPPA – Corporate Trap, Kiwis Fight Back. Why should you join...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • GUEST BLOG – Patrick O’Dea: no new coal mines
    Green Party and Mana Party policy is “NO NEW COAL MINES!” Auckland Coal Action is trying to put this policy into action on the ground. ACA after a hard fought two year campaign waged alongside local residents and Iwi, in...
    The Daily Blog | 19-10
  • Comparing Police action – Hager raid vs Roast Buster case
    This satire had the NZ Police contact TDB and threaten us with 6months in prison for using their logo.   The plight of Nicky Hager and the draconian Police actions against him has generated over  $53 000 in donations so...
    The Daily Blog | 18-10
  • Malala Yousafzai, White Saviour Complexes and Local Resistance
    Last week, Malala Yousafzai was the co-recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. Since her exposure to the worldwide spotlight, her spirit, wisdom and strength have touched the hearts of people everywhere. However, there have been cynics who have argued that...
    The Daily Blog | 18-10
  • Jason Ede is back – but no media can interview him?
    Well, well, well. Jason Ede, the main figure connected to John Key’s office and the Dirty Politics black ops is back with a company with deep ties to the National Party. One thing you can say about the right –...
    The Daily Blog | 18-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – Leadership Transitions In Other Parties: A ...
    As cannot have escaped anyone’s attention by now, the country is presently in the grips of an election and campaign that will help determine the fate of the nation for years to come. It’s gripping stuff – with clear divides...
    The Daily Blog | 17-10
  • SkyCity worker says she faces losing her house
    SkyCity worker Carolyn Alpine told the company annual shareholder’s meeting today that she faced the prospect of losing her house because the company had cut her shifts from two a week to one without consultation. The solo mother, has worked...
    The Daily Blog | 17-10
  • Greg O’Connor’s latest push to arm cops & 5 reasons not to
    I was wondering at what point within a 3rd term of National that Police Cheerleader Greg O’Connor would start trying to demand cops be armed. O’Connor must have thought to himself, ‘if bloody Key can get us and the GCSB vast new...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • You can’t have crisis without ISIS
    So the new scary bogeyman ISIS might have chemical weapons that the US secretly found in Iraq, but America didn’t want to expose this find because the WMDs were actually built and made by the US and Europe, the two powers...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • NZ WINS UN SPIN THE BOTTLE! Privately sucking up to America for a decade me...
    Oh, we are loved! Little old NZ, the 53rd state of America after Israel and Australia, gets to sit at the adults table for the special dinner party that is the UN Security Council. How delightful, a decade of privately...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • MEDIA BLOG – Myles Thomas – A World Without Advertising
    Non-commercial broadcasting and media. It’s a solution for all manner of problems ailing our tender nation… voter engagement, unaccountable governance, apathy, stupefaction, public education, science in schools, arts appreciation, cultural cringe… But no-one could’ve guessed that non-commercial media might solve...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • March against war – 2pm Saturday 25th October
    March against war – 2pm Saturday 25th October...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • Whack a mole as US govt foreign policy
    Whack-A-Mole was a popular arcade game from my youth.  It consisted of a waist high cabinet with holes in the top. Plastic moles seemingly randomly pop out of these holes. The purpose of the game was to hit as many...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • In Paean of Debt
    This week is ‘Money Week’. It’s an opportunity to promote to the middle classes, and anyone else who will listen, the virtues of wise ‘investment’. The aims are to promote the mystical (and indeed mythical) virtues of saving for the...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • The last 48 hours – Poverty denial, war denial and unapologetic abuse of ...
    The bewildering speed of events that simply end in Key shrugging and proclaiming he doesn’t really give a shit is coming think and fast as the Government suddenly appreciate the full spectrum dominance they now enjoy. Here is Radio NZ...
    The Daily Blog | 16-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Pat O’Dea – Mana 2.0 Rebooted
    Internationally the news is that Evo Morales of Bolivia won big with Left Wing policies But what are the chances that the Left will make a resurgence in this country? As the internecine struggles between the Left and the Right...
    The Daily Blog | 15-10
  • The Blomfield IPCA letter – Has Dirty Politics leaked into the NZ Police ...
    It’s difficult to know what to make of the IPCA letter to Matthew Blomfield over Slater’s continued insistence that the hard drive taken from Matthew wasn’t stolen.  Slater has selectively cherry picked the Police referring back to his claim that Blomfeild perjured...
    The Daily Blog | 15-10
  • ​Media release: Rail and Maritime Transport Union – Auckland move for K...
    The Rail and Maritime Transport Union is questioning a KiwiRail proposal to progressively relocate its Zero Harm personnel from Wellington to Auckland. “The purpose of the Zero Harm team is to drive KiwiRail’s performance in health and safety.  Rail is a...
    The Daily Blog | 15-10
  • Amnesty International – Friend request from an IS militant
    There’s always that one person, that one Facebook friend, usually a musician or event promoter, who, when you so foolishly accept their friend request, will completely inundate your news feed with copious event invitations and promotions. The person who, despite...
    The Daily Blog | 15-10
  • NZ should follow the UK and recognize the Palestinian state
    Over the past two weeks, the United Kingdom and Sweden have made headlines through their decisions to recognize the state of Palestine. They are hardly the first nations to do so. Indeed, 134 countries have, in various ways, given formal...
    The Daily Blog | 15-10
  • The Discordant Chimes of Freedom: Why Labour has yet to be forgiven.
    WHY DOES THE ELECTORATE routinely punish Labour and the Greens for their alleged “political correctness” but not National? It just doesn’t seem fair. Consider, for example, the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act 2007 – the so-called “anti-smacking legislation” –...
    The Daily Blog | 15-10
  • Hosking or Henry – Which right wing crypto fascist clown do you want to w...
    So Mediaworks are finally going to make some actual money from their eye watering contract with Paul Henry by launching a new multi-platform Breakfast show over TV, Radio and internet. This is great news for Campbell Live who have dodged...
    The Daily Blog | 14-10
  • Families need more money to reduce child poverty
    Prime Minister John Key is mistaken to rule out extending the In Work Tax Credit to all poor children (The Nation 11th Oct) and Child Poverty Action Group challenges government advisors to come up with a more cost effective way...
    The Daily Blog | 14-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Kelly Ellis – Don’t shit on my dream
    Once were dreamers. A large man, walks down the road and, even from 200 yards there’s light showing between his big arms and bigger body. It’s as if he’s put tennis balls under his arms. Two parking wardens walk out...
    The Daily Blog | 14-10
  • Labour and ‘special interests’
    The media narrative of Labour is that it is unpopular because it’s controlled by ‘special interests’. This ‘special interests’ garbage is code for gays, Maoris, wimin and unionists. We should show that argument the contempt it deserves. The next Labour...
    The Daily Blog | 14-10
  • Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part Ru...
    . . Continued from: Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part Tahi) . National’s housing development project: ‘Gateway’ to confusion . Perhaps nothing better illustrates National’s lack of a coherent housing programme than the ‘circus’ that is...
    The Daily Blog | 14-10
  • Here’s what WINZ are patronisingly saying to people on welfare when they ...
    Yesterday, a case manager from WINZ called to tell me that I needed to “imagine what I would do if I did not have welfare”. I replied “Well, I guess if I couldn’t live at home, I would be homeless.”...
    The Daily Blog | 14-10
  • David Shearer’s ‘no feminist chicks’ mentality highlights all that is...
    Mr Nasty pays a visit Shearer’s extraordinary outburst last night on NZs favourite redneck TV, The Paul Henry Show, is a reminder of all that is wrong within the Labour Caucus right now… He said the current calls for a female or...
    The Daily Blog | 13-10
  • Greenpeace 1 – Shell 0
    Greenpeace 1 – Shell 0...
    The Daily Blog | 13-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – A Tale Of Two Cities
    Sunday was surreal. I went for a drive and ended up in a different country. It wasn’t intentional but those days of too many literally intertextual references seldom are. There is no doubt that the Sunday drive this week had...
    The Daily Blog | 13-10
  • Auckland Rates Rises Out of Control
    Responding to the NZ Herald report that Auckland ratepayers will face an average of a 29 percent rates increase, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director Jordan Williams says: “These rate rises show that Len Brown's spending is out of control.”...
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • Protest at New Plymouth Oil and Gas Expo
    About 30 protesters from Climate Justice Taranaki, Frack-free Kapiti, Te Uru Pounamu Action Group, Oil Free Wellington, Frack-free Manawatu and the east coast protested yesterday outside New Plymouth's biennial Oil and Gas Expo at the TSB Stadium....
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • FMA warns consumers about cold-calling investment offers
    The Financial Markets Authority (FMA) is warning New Zealand consumers and investors to be wary of cold-calls asking them to buy shares or put their money into offshore firms....
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • Comprehensive plan needed to end child poverty
    Child Poverty Action Group says it is vital the newly re-elected National government takes a planned and comprehensive approach to reducing child poverty in New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • Metiria Gets Feed the Kids
    Yesterday the Speaker of the House advised that he had accepted my request to transfer my Feed the Kids (Education (Breakfast and Lunch Programmes in Schools) Amendment) Bill to Metiria Turei of the Green Party....
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • DIA undercover investigation leads to jailing
    An undercover Internal Affairs investigation has led to a Hastings man being jailed for three and half years....
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • Call on Minister McCully to pursue the case of Balibo Five
    Media Information: Call on Minister McCully to pursue the case of journalist Gary Cunningham and the Balibo Five...
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • Australia and NZ actions on press freedoms alarming
    Global support for investigative journalism in Australia and New Zealand is a welcome response to law changes and a police raid, says the Pacific Freedom Forum...
    Scoop politics | 22-10
  • Call for release of French journalists in West Papua
    West Papua Action Auckland, the EPMU Print and Media Council and the NZ Media Freedom Network call on the Minister of Foreign Affairs to speak out in support of the two French TV journalists whose trial has just begun in...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Court of Appeal: Dotcom v 20th Century Fox Film Corporation
    A The appeal is dismissed. B The 20 August 2014 order of the High Court dealing with confidentiality and the 29 August 2014 order of this Court dealing with confidentiality are set aside. C The confidentiality orders set out in...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Glassons Blasted For Glamourising Animal Cruelty
    Clothing brand Glassons have found themselves embroiled in another controversy after launching a new advert featuring a girl riding a bull. Animal advocacy organisation SAFE have asked them to remove the ad immediately as it glamourises animal cruelty....
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Smuggling honey into New Zealand isn’t sweet
    Smuggling honey into New Zealand isn’t sweet Federated Farmers Bee Industry Group applauds the tough line taken by Ministry for Primary Industries (MPI) Border Staff at Auckland Airport. In deporting the couple found trying to smuggle bee products...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Taxpayers’ Union Responds to Joyce on Corporate Welfare
    Responding to Economic Development Minister Steven Joyce’s defence of corporate welfare , Jim Rose, the author of Monopoly Money , a Taxpayers Union report on corporate welfare since 2008, says:...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Speech from the Throne brings welcome focus on children
    Today’s speech from the Throne confirms the Government’s focus on children, youth and their families in the areas of health, education, youth employment, poverty alleviation and Whānau Ora; now the challenge is to ensure every child in New Zealand...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • John’s Job Fairs no fix for unemployment and poverty
    “John Key has clearly been looking to the US for his latest bright idea on dealing with employment issues,” says Auckland Action Against Poverty coordinator Sue Bradford. “Job fairs where the desperately unemployed queue in their corporate best to compete...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Speech From the Throne Foreshadows More Corporate Welfare
    Responding to the Governor General’s Speech from the Throne, which outlined that the Government’s intentions for the next Parliamentary term would include further Business Growth Agenda initiatives, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director Jordan...
    Scoop politics | 21-10
  • Green MP to speak at panel on Rainbow Mental Health
    Hamilton, New Zealand: Recently re-elected Green Party MP Jan Logie will be a guest speaker at a panel on the mental health of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Trangender, Takataapui and Intersex people taking place on November 1st as part of the...
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Evidence Supports GE Moratorium
    Federated Farmers spokesman Graham Smith's call for a 'rethink' on release of GeneticallyEngineered organisms is misguided, and instead it is time for a formal moratorium on GMOs in the environment.(1)...
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Chatham Rise mining could have impact on whales and dolphins
    Wellington, 21 October 2014--Mining phosphate on the Chatham Rise, off the east coast of New Zealand’s south island, could potentially have many impacts on marine mammals like whales and dolphins, the Environmental Protection Agency was told today....
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Council endorses Nanaia Mahuta as the next Labour leader
    Te Kaunihera Māori, the Māori Council of the New Zealand Labour Party, have passed a resolution to endorse the Hon Nanaia Mahuta as the next leader of the Labour Party...
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Kaumatua to organise petition to end Maori seats
    Ngapuhi kaumatua David Rankin has announced that he will be organising a nationwide petition to seek support from Maori voters to end the Maori seats. “These seats are patronising”, he says. “They imply we need a special status, and that...
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Announcing a New Voice for The Left
    Josh Forman is pleased to announce the creation of a new force on the Left of politics in New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Public services held back by poor workplace culture
    A new report by Victoria University’s Centre for Labour, Employment and Work shows that public servants are working significant unpaid overtime to ensure the public services New Zealanders value are able to continue....
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • iPredict New Zealand Weekly Economic & Political Update
    Andrew Little’s probability of being the next leader of the Labour Party has reached 70% and Jacinda Ardern is favourite to become his deputy, according to the combined wisdom of the 8000+ registered traders on New Zealand’s predictions market, iPredict....
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Prison Drug Treatment Unit marks a milestone
    Christchurch Men’s Prison’s Drug Treatment Unit (DTU) celebrated the completion of its 50th six month Drug and Alcohol Programme today, with the graduation of a further twelve offenders....
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Security Council seat a chance for NZ to empower women
    The UN Women National Committee Aotearoa New Zealand (UN Women NCANZ) welcomes New Zealand winning a seat on the United Nations Security Council and is calling on New Zealand to use its position to proactively promote effective implementation of the...
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Waipareira and ACC sign Partnership
    Waipareira and The Accident Compensation Corporation (ACC) have signed a Memorandum of Understanding at Whanau Centre, Henderson – marking a special day for the West Auckland Urban Maori organisation....
    Scoop politics | 20-10
  • Humanitarian aid desperately needed in Iraq and Syria
    Global Peace and Justice Auckland is calling on the government to provide humanitarian funding for non-aligned NGOs (non-governmental organisations) in the Middle East rather than give any support whatever for the US-led military campaign in the area....
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Court Judicial Decision: Dotcom v The USA: 17 October 2014
    The United States of America is seeking the extradition of Messrs Dotcom, Batato, Ortmann and Van Der Kolk. The matter has been before the Courts on numerous occasions, and no further recitation of the facts is needed....
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Marshall Island poet speaks at UN climate summit
    “The fossil fuel industry is the biggest threat to our very existence as Pacific Islanders. We stand to lose our homes, our communities and our culture. But we are fighting back. This coming Friday thirty Pacific Climate Warriors, joined by...
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Many tourist car accidents preventable
    Simple steps could dramatically reduce the number of accidents involving tourists, says the car review website dogandlemon.com ....
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • RainbowYOUTH: 25 Years, 25 More
    In 1989, a group of young people in Auckland got together to form a support group for LGBTIQ youth. They called it Auckland Lesbian And Gay Youth (ALGY). After 25 years, several location changes, a name change, a brand reboot...
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Outdated Oath shows need for Kiwi Head of State
    MPs are sworn in today and New Zealand Republic has written to MPs asking them to talk about why 121 New Zealanders elected by the people of New Zealand and standing in the New Zealand Parliament swear allegiance to another...
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Council shouldn’t revenue grab from windfall valuations
    Auckland Council should state clearly they will not try and capture revenue as a result of the latest valuations and needs reminding that the City’s skyrocketing property values doesn’t change the level or cost of Council’s services, says...
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • EPMU endorses Andrew Little for Labour leadership
    The National Executive of the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union unanimously endorsed Andrew Little for the role of Labour leader, at a meeting held yesterday. “I have been speaking to our workplace delegates at forums across the country over...
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • World Food Day promotes Agroecology not GE technology
    The UN has stated that agroecology is a major solution to feeding the world and caring for the earth....
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Labour Names Review Team
    Labour’s New Zealand Council has appointed Bryan Gould as Convenor of its post-General Election Review. He will be joined on the Review Team by Hon Margaret Wilson, Stacey Morrison and Brian Corban....
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • Contenders for Labour leadership debate for first time
    The contenders for the leadership of the Labour Party debated for the first time on TV One’s Q+A programme today....
    Scoop politics | 19-10
  • UN Ambassador Jim McLay on TV One’s Q+A programme
    New Zealand's United Nations Ambassador Jim McLay on TV One’s Q+A programme....
    Scoop politics | 18-10
  • The Nation: RSA President BJ Clark & Ian Taylor, New NZ Flag
    Lisa Owen interviews RSA President BJ Clark and tech innovator Ian Taylor about changing the NZ flag...
    Scoop politics | 18-10
  • The Nation: RSA President BJ Clark & Ian Taylor, New NZ Flag
    Lisa Owen interviews RSA President BJ Clark and tech innovator Ian Taylor about changing the NZ flag...
    Scoop politics | 18-10
  • Lisa Owen interviews Foreign Minister Murray McCully
    Murray McCully says New Zealanders can expect a 5-10 year engagement against Islamic State if we join military action in Iraq and the government will take that “very carefully into account”...
    Scoop politics | 18-10
  • Lisa Owen interviews Julia Gillard
    Julia Gillard says there is “sufficient evidence” to fight Islamic State and does not think it will increase the risk of a domestic attack...
    Scoop politics | 18-10
  • NZ businesses to make child abuse a priority conversation
    Many leading New Zealand businesses have partnered with national child advocacy organisation Child Matters to participate in the fourth annual ‘Buddy Day’ - New Zealand’s only child abuse prevention awareness day....
    Scoop politics | 17-10
  • Tribunal decision significant for SMEs
    The Human Rights Review Tribunal decided this week in favour of an employee’s right not to work on Saturdays for religious reasons. The decision may still be appealed but the Director of the Office of Human Rights Proceedings, Robert Kee,...
    Scoop politics | 17-10
  • On The Nation this weekend
    This weekend on The Nation… New Zealand has been elected to the United Nations Security Council, but what happens next? Lisa Owen interviews Foreign Minister Murray McCully from New York about our goals for reform, what America wants from us...
    Scoop politics | 17-10
  • 1000+ supported by Te Arawa Whanau Ora
    Over 1000 individual whānau members are leading happier, healthier, more successful lives as a result of eight passionate and committed Māori organisations working at the coalface to help whānau find success....
    Scoop politics | 17-10
  • Nomination for Board Members Now Open
    CRF’s objective is to create opportunities for people from refugee backgrounds to lead fulfilling lives and contribute to every area of New Zealand society. It is an organisation that undertakes advocacy work using the strengths-based approach,...
    Scoop politics | 16-10
  • Anglican Family Care Otago staff to take industrial action
    Social workers, family workers and support staff working for Anglican Family Care in Dunedin and South Otago will take industrial action after their employer refused a pay increase that would keep up with the rising cost of living....
    Scoop politics | 16-10
  • Use UN Security Council role to overcome inaction and injust
    Amnesty International welcomes New Zealand winning a seat on the UN Security Council and is calling on New Zealand to use the role to ensure the body lives up to its role of safeguarding global peace and security....
    Scoop politics | 16-10
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