Written By: - Date published: 8:08 am, June 1st, 2010 - 257 comments
Categories: crime, human rights, International -
Tags: israel
Heavily-armed Israeli commandos have murdered at least 19 civilians in an unprovoked attack in international waters on a flotilla of ships trying to get aid to occupied Gaza. Reports indicate several times that many civilians are wounded. Details are sketchy because Israel has taken control of the ships, detained surviving the passengers and crew, and taken the civilians’ communication equipment.
Israel is claiming its heavily-armed commandos were forced to kill 19 people because some of them may have attempted to defend themselves. Not acceptable. Clearly a post hoc attempt to justify murder, and not a good one at that.
And, of course, this latest outrage is simply one more atrocity in half a century of brutal occupation.
New Zealand must expel the Israeli ambassador. There’s no place for this criminal regime in our country.
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Latest reports are that 10 were killed by the Israelis. The Israelis claim that they had to kill in self defence.
The killings had the air of inevitability because of the heavily armed nature of the Israeli commandos. When the protesters tried to resist the illegal invasion of their ship in international waters, the Israeli commandos only had two choices, shoot their way out or surrender to the protesters and leave the ship.
No doubt the Israeli military leaders who ordered this illegal assault will try to blame A. the protesters and B. the commandos.
Reports are coming in that Israeli embassies around the world have faced spontaneous demonstrations.
10 is what the israelis are admitting. for some reason they think it makes things better.
If ever there was a lesson on the foolishness of human nature, it is Israel. Centuries of oppression and the holocaust, and they would claim (I think) that it made their resolve so much stronger. Then what does Israel do as a nation? Begins its own programme of oppression. Do they really think that Palestinians will not react just as they did? That Palestinian resolve does not deepen with each new attack? It’s the ultimate stupid bloody irony that the oppressed have become the oppressor.
Which begs the question, why is “[c]enturies of oppression and the [Nazi] holocaust” blamed on Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims? Last time I looked into WW2 history, the Palestinians were pawns between the British Empire, France and Hitlers Reich. I have never found any evidence of Palestinian involvement in Nazi slave labour or concentration camps.
It would be the same as New Zealand Maori being given a homeland in Palestine and then blaming Palestinians for the actions of Great Britain during it’s colonization and ethnic cleansing of New Zealand. The Palestinians are not responsible for the New Zealand wars just as they are not responsible for Nazi concentration camps and slave labour.
It would be the same as New Zealand Maori being given a homeland in Palestine
Err, don’t you mean “Western Polynesia”?
L
No I mean Palestine – its to emphasise a point. Palestinians are not responsible for Britains actions against Maori or Nazi Germany’s actions against European Jews (Jehovah’s Witnesses, Gay’s, Political dissenters, disabled, Ethnic Poles, POW’s or anyone else who ended up in the concentration camps).
But you realise Palestine wasn’t just arbitrarily chosen as a Jewish homeland, right?
L
Be careful Lew or I will ask you to define Jew. You do realise that genetic science has shown that modern Palestinians are the most likely descendents of Biblical Hebrews. European historian Professor Shlomo Sands book “The Invention of the Jewish People” asserts that modern Palestinians are the indigenous people of Palestine and that they are the most likely descendents of Biblical Hebrews and that they never left the Levant. Sands assertions are supported by Israeli archeologist Professor Israel Finklestein in a book authored with Neil Asher Silberman, titled “The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts”.
… and it’s 9/11 and AGW tar-babies all over again. *sigh*
L
Oh wow Lew, and your highly intellectual cop out of a response is to resort to the logical fallacies guilt by association and ad hominem. Way to go for originality when you don’t know your subject matter.
An awareness of crank magnetism is a very handy conceptual tool enabling me to elide the most pointless engagements without requiring much investment in them.
Honestly, I’ve wasted plenty of my life on those arguments already, and I have better things to do. You’re welcome to them, though. Good on you for sticking to your guns.
L
Sorry mate,
Logical fallacies are used by people who have nothing to contribute to a conversation but spite. You obviously don’t know your subject matter – so now go away.
I’m already gone. Enjoy debating yourself.
L
Actually now I’m showing the readers how ignorant you are.
Lew,
This what a Jews themselves are thinking about “Zionism” and about what happened to the free Gaza flotilla.
Neturei Karta is orthodox Jewish and vehemently against Zionism.
Jews sans frontiers have this to say.
Another orthodox group called true Torah Jews says this
And don’t get me started on the Israeli’s arrested while highfiving after the planes impacted on 9/11 and who were interviewed on Israeli TV after they were exported.
Ah, it’s Ev. Just Jum now, and we’ll have the crank trifecta!
In no way am I drawing any equivalence between Judaism and Zionism, and it’s ludicrous that I even have to mention it.
L
Jews sans frontiers
Calling Neturai Karta “Orthodox Jews” is silly – they are quite separate from Orthodox Jews.
nzfp
Modern DNA genetics (male line Y chromosome trail) show that most northern Semites – those of Lebanon, Syria and Palestine – Arab and Jew both have common ancestry about 2000BCE (coincidently circa the earliest Abraham date). Most Jews have this ancestry DNA.
This DNA distinguishes northern and semite (Arabia semite) DNA back to 5000BCE.
The Palestinian Arabs and the Israeli Jews are more closely related than Arabs of Arabia and northern Semites who speak Arabic and call themselves Arabs.
The DNA evidence makes a monkey of both yourself and those who dismiss Palestinians as part of the Arab people (as if from another area of the ME because they speak Arabic the southern semite language).
Thanx Nzfp for bringing that up….its great to see the Zionest lies exposed at their source…
“But you realise Palestine wasn’t just arbitrarily chosen as a Jewish homeland, right? ”
But it was picked arbitrarily – because Palestine had nothing to do with WW2. Not only that but David Ben-gurion in his book “The Jews and their land” page 292 wrote:
Now last time I looked Lew, Russia was in Europe not in the Middle East. 12% of the population being of Russian origin means that the overwhelming 88% of the population was Palestinian Muslim and Christian. Do the math Lew or do you have a logical fallacy for that too?
Birobidjan is in Russia though.
Are you saying you don’t think that historical significance to their people played a role in the selection, or are you saying that historical significance is arbitrary? Because I’m not sure you could reasonably argue that there isn’t any historical significance (jeez, I feel like a parrot saying that three times in one paragraph) to the selection.
C’mon, Ari, if he can argue AGW is a scientific conspiracy and 9/11 was a setup, arguing Israel has no significance to Jews isn’t too much of a stretch.
L
Logical fallacies Lew! Come back when you’ve got something real to say.
nzfp
Palestine was chosen as a Jewish homeland by the Jewish Zionists in the 19thC (in response to European nationalism – national independence/democratic self-government), the League of Nations awarded a Palestine mandate to the British – on the basis that it would become a Jewish homeland.
WW2 had nothing to do with it.
If that’s the angle you’re aiming for, Taiwan would probably be a better analogy than anywhere in Polynesia.
Why do people like nzfp always list the disabled and mentally handicapped victims of Hitlers holocaust and war against future and never acknowledge the far more numerous mentally ill who were victims of the gas vans and lethal injections.An entirely different an unacknowledged category-worthy of acknowledgement given the anti mentally ill legislation of the the pro palestine Bradford, Cullen and Clark in 2002
Agreed.
The boarding of a civilian ship on the High Seas carrying humanitarian supplies and the killing of civilians is wrong on so many counts.
I expect this post will attract a number of contributors.
Piracy?
Is that even being alleged by anyone independent?
true r0b.
While its a topic perhaps someone can explain why the Israelis are allowed nuclear weapons but nobody else in that part of the world is… Obama? Bush? US embassy? Maybe even a passionate American? Somebody have an answer?? ha ha what a sorry state of affairs the whole israeli-usa hypocrisy murderous arsenal thing is. No cred. Just more murders.
Could someone also explain why Israelis are allowed to “SELL” nuclear warheads to Apartheid South Africa, even though they are not signatories to the NNPT? The same Apartheid South Africa which “EXCLUDED” Maori “CHEEKY DARKY” rugby players from All Black teams because of Apartheid?
What is the World doing about three Israeli submarines armed with nuclear cruise missiles in the Persian Gulf pointed at Iran? Will this mean that if Ahmadinejad sneezes they will fire under self defense saying he was spreading a biological weapon? US hypocrisy over nuclear disarmament excuses Israel every time. Should such a trigger happy nation have nuclear weapons?
More to the point, the neuclear deterant we hear all about only works when both sides are armed, why are outsiders preventing Iran from getting neuclear weapons in light of this?
Almost anybody is allowed nuclear weapons given the Non poliferation treaty gives anybody the right to develop nuclear power which means they will have nuclear fuel and in reality will be able to make bombs. Look Pakistan and India got the bomb with a blind eye from West Germany and Britain. South Africa simply gave it up, Australia would have been welcome to it and Canada and Holland were nuclear armed during the cold war. Yes, nuclear proliferation and possibly nuclear power are wrong, but with present policies anybody but North korea and Iran are pretty much welcome in the nuclear club.
Lot’s of links in this roundup…
http://zeitgeistpolitics.wordpress.com/2010/06/01/updates-aftermath-of-flotilla-attack/
Be interesting to see how the LibDems fare in the Brit coalition govt’s response.
Also, article five of the NATO agreement would make this, if true, interesting
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html
The other thing is the escalation. I’m reminded of when Sharon made his grandstanding march on to the Temple mount which ended up being the proximate casue of the second intifada. A win for extremists on all sides. Hamas could well use this to try and marginalise Fatah as moderates and get control of the West Bank.
Also, this:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7140282.ece
UK response will be interesting. Serious split in Lib-Con coalition views on Palestine… Their agreement seemed to be hoping nothing would happen, but they’ll have to respond clearly to this.
vto, Israel is effectively an outpost of the US military, sure they’re sizeable and well armed in their own right but Uncle Sam helped to create and arm it and backs it whenever called upon.
Don’t underestimate the enormous clout in the US the Jewish factions can hold and ensure Israel gets what Israel wants…..also the US tend to veto any security council measure that may impact Israel also like an independant UN Inquiry into this.
If you havnt seen this I would highly reccomend it
http://www.freedocumentaries.org/int.php?filmID=173
Its about the Israeli Lobby in america and the controversy surrounding an article written by Mearsheimer and Walt who are the two top (realist) dogs in International Relations.
With Israel being a big trading partner of NZ we cant expect much from our government on the flotilla
Well, we can’t given that National’s stance on foreign relations appears to be political realism. (ie. the view that we should look out for New Zealand and only New Zealand) If we had a government that actually engaged in some responsibility for peaceful conduct the world over, that might be different.
Somehow i get the feeling we will hear very little in the way on condemnation from our gutless Minister of Foreign Affairs or from our PM.
Quite.
Do you think the reaction would be different if the aid boats had been Israeli and the commandos Palestinian?
Forget Andy Haden’s waffle – here is where the true racism and oppression is occurring.
There has been a comment from a mouthpiece, Mcully is ‘framing’ an answer. ie hes too gutless to even be on one side or the other
Peace activists, really, just more of the same I reckon.
Also, pro Israeli blog posts a timeline with regular updates.
capcha: supporting, me, with regard to this FUBAR, neither.
Unconvincing mach 1. Sticks and stones are hardly weaponary against automatic weapons! And excited protesters? Surprise. Surprise. Fancy the threat of protest groups armed with sticks and stones. So lets kill a few in the dark. Unconvincing.
Agreed ianmac, unconvincing, both sides:
The flotilla people would have known that the Israeli response would be disproportionate and yet they continued, publicity, yep, lots of publicity, 19 lives worth of publicity. And that’s what makes me angry ianmac, 19 lives lost, for what, another round of outrage, tut tutting and picking sides but the ugly sore will still be suppurating and oozing pus this time next year…and the next… FFS!.
Knowing that there might be a disproportionate response and continuing to protest may put you at risk, sure, but saying that both sides are equally at fault because of it is the height of victim-blaming. You don’t have to kill protestors because they have sticks and they’re excited. That’s just ridiculous, and doesn’t deserve any sort of defense.
I gather the Israelis objection to the Palestinian convoy is that it is a publicity stunt.
You can just envisage an Israeli MP rushing intio Netanyahu’s office declaring: “Boss, I’ve just had a brilliant idea on how we can keep this off the front pages……”
go over to the sewer to see how (predictably) those *compassionate* righties are supporting Israel….
consistent with the right’s non-recognition of any indigenous peoples.
perhaps, like McCully on Bethune, they think people doing something on the basis of principle ‘deserve whatever happens to them’?
***consistent with the right’s non-recognition of any indigenous peoples.***
Like the left recognise indigenous europeans?
***HitchensFan 10
1 June 2010 at 10:16 am
go over to the sewer to see how (predictably) those *compassionate* righties are supporting Israel .***
HitchensFan, do you see the irony in your title? Hitchens is a neo-con on foreign policy.
umm unlike you lot just because I agree with someone’s view on some things, doesn’t mean I agree with that person on everything.
I can think for myself….
Hitchens would lecture you for hours at being termed a neo-con. he argues (and I see his point, even if I think he does much too far) that the left and liberalism needs to be more proactive in defence of its values. That’s not neoconservatism, even if it does bear a cosmetic resemblance. He declared himself to be “on the same side as” neo-cons (I think on the question of Iraq), not that he was one of them.
L
Heard a replay of Hitchens being interviewed on Nat Rad a couple of days ago and he was adamant that he simply wanted Saddam gone, because he was obviously a class A shit and the Iraquis would be better off without him. Fair enough, too. Hitchens said (I’m paraphrasing) that it was more a matter of conservative leaders proposing a course of action that would lead to an outcome he was happy with, rather than him applauding the people proposing the action or accepting the justification for the action the neo cons used.
Now this might be self serving and a rewriting of history to make himself look good, but it rings true to me.
VoR, it rang true to me too. I haven’t read his memoirs yet (what sort of fan am I?) but interesting to see what he says in there.
“Like the left recognise indigenous europeans?”
Do go on.
yeah felix that was an intriguing comment, I’m curious too….we’re clearly dealing with a stunning intellect here in PK….
threadjack?
So how many generations did it take for immigrant pacific islanders (800+ years ago) to become Maori – indigenous New Zealanders? As someone with a maori mother and an english dad I’ve wondered.
Ie/ as I understand it – generations on now the possum we have is quite unique in its habits – can it now be considered an indigenous species?
No abuse please.
Hard question, CJ. Probably not one we’re really capable of answering as a country. Tim Watkin ruminated on a similar theme recently.
L
Has Israel announced the discovery of weapons hidden among the building materials yet? Maybe need a few more hours to organise.
How about a few Weapons of mass destruction or even a few hundred land mines? Israel does have a good supply, made in the USA. Agreed coolas
Yeah, no
http://muqata.blogspot.com/2010/05/anti-shalit-flotilla-updates.html
A lot of those weapons look like kitchen knives, possibly needed for preparing food in the galley. Oo, a switch blade, that wouldn’t come in handy for cutting rope or anything else you wanted to do at sea… and a screw-driver – blatantly all very offensive weapons brought along purely to attack a highly-advanced well-armed Defence Force.
that potatoe peeler looks like a WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION to me for sure.
There was a slingshot with ammo. I didn’t know Dennis the Menace was in Gaza.
@ the sprout.
You of all people should know how to spell potato
a Dan Quayle moment
Israeli attack happened yesterday, generally slow-moving UN Security Council had managed to organise having an emergency meeting by the early hours (NZ-time) this morning, on a US public holiday.
8.30: McCully’s office has a spokesperson saying they’re looking into the evidence and preparing a response.
Not good enough McCully, take your job seriously. Being Foreign Minister sometimes means working on a Sunday, and sometimes means not getting to sleep through the night; not everything happens in NZ working hours.
It’s not an NZ issue. I can understand why it was left till morning.
except there was a kiwi on board
indeed
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10648901
don’t hold much hope for any assistance or advocacy from NZ if she is arrested
definitely not holding my breath, Sprout. She’s on her own, I fear.
just like Bethune.
captcha: attack
yep ‘fraid so
infused – This is a NZ issue – the Israeli-Palestine hostilities are arousing Muslism passions and desire for retribution that affects the whole world, ending our expectations of peaceful lives and safety and causing poliitical responses that diminish our freedoms. Get real and look at what is happening in the world. We may be a bit separated and at the bottom of it but we are fully linked in.
Israel were more than stupid with this action. it defies belief really. I have always supported Israel’s right as a nation to defend it’s borders. however, this is way outside it’s jurisdiction and is a slap in the face for middle east peace efforts. How can Israel be expected to be taken seriously on the world stage if they don’t have respect for international rules and conventions?
Funy parallel betweeen your condemnation of this action and your support of peter bethune and the sea sheperd crowd though.
yeah, remember when Pete Bethune boarded that Japanese aid vessel trying to deliver help to starving people with a squad of heavily arm commandos and murdered 19 of the people aboard, injured dozens more and took everyone captive?
f*ckwit.
oh BR, trust you to not see the underlying issues through your shit fog of ideaology. Israel did wrong, in fact it’s pretty much tantamount to piracy given the information available at this stage. yet to condemn the armed storming of a peaceful boat going about it’s lawful business while you support the same action in another part of the world is rank hypocrisy. at least be consistent in your condemnation. I pity you. I really do. your stupidness is not your fault.
I think the problem is your characterising a lone chap’s boarding of a fully-crewed boat, with only the tools necessary to effect such a boarding, and not putting up a fight but goingpeacefully into custody all the way back to the other side of the world as “armed storming”.
Even the Japanese aren’t arguing that in any seriousness. They’re going to have trouble making a single technical assault charge stick.
Don’t get me wrong: I think Peter Bethune did overreach and is now getting what you get for doing so. But there’s no equivalence to this, and it’s you who’s swimming in a miasma of ideological bullshit if you think there is.
L
International Law, as far as I know, is pretty clear on the fact that Boarding a boat, univited, while armed, is piracy. regardless of the consequences of such actions. feel free to prove me wrong on this though. The israeli commandoes are guilty of it, and so is peter bethune. while pete has been bad, the over the top violent actions of israel make pete’s actions seem childishly tame on any scale. But I still fail to see how it can not be hypocritical if you support pete’s actions and condemn those of israel.
That being so, why are the Japanese not charging Bethune with anythign even remotely related to piracy? The way you put it, should be a slam dunk for them. Gods know they have one of the most strict and efficient legal systems in the world. If they can’t make it stick, who could?
I think what you’re talking about is not guilt in a legal sense, but in a moral sense, which is a shorthand for “what you reckon ought to be so even if it isn’t actually so”. That’s where the false equivalence comes in. It’s like the howls from authoritarians on both the left and the right after the Urewera 18: ok, sure, legally there was no ground for terrorism charges, but they were morally equivalent to terrorists. Well, bullshit. If we’re going to have a rule of law, then let’s have a rule of law, and let’s have those systems decide what transgressions a group are or are not guilty of.
L
I can’t answer why the japanese haven’t charged him with piracy. maybe because it was a media stunt and they saw it as such, and charging him with piracy would please his childish sense of self-importance, and help pete achieve his aims. doesn’t change the fact he could have been charged. Were the urewera 18 terrorists? i’m not sure on that with hindsight. they hadn’t commited any overt acts against the nation. so conspiracy maybe, but really? conspiracy is like beauty, it’s in the eye of the beholder.
There you go again. “What I reckon ought to be so even if it isn’t actually so’.
I can’t draw you a picture on the internets, but here goes:
No piracy charge –> no piracy
No terrorism charge –> no terrorism
On a distinct, but related matter (not that you’re arguing this line, TR): if Israel wants to claim a defence of its actions under international law (as the KBR claim they have) then let them test that defence at the ICC. What’s that you say? They don’t agree to be bound by the international criminal courts? And they’re not signatories to any of the international laws the KBR are claiming legitimise their actions? Well, I guess that officially makes them outlaws then, doesn’t it?
L
Oh Noes!!!! Lew just laid it down how the world works. I’m glad we’ve got you here Lew. the world is now safe from ambiguity.
No charges doesn’t mean it never happened as it happened. it means no charges. for pete at least. lucky bugger.
It means that if you want to allege that there was an offence, it’s on you to substantiate it (in the face of the established evidence to the contrary).
If you want to do so, go right ahead. Maybe the Japanese prosecutors, or the NZ Police who got a black eye from the S-G, could hire you as a special legal expert.
L
“International Law, as far as I know, is pretty clear on the fact that Boarding a boat, univited, while armed, is piracy. regardless of the consequences of such actions.”
Wrong.
International Law (the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 1982″ defines maritime piracy as:
“any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:
(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;
(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;”
In the case of the Israeli attack the requirement of “committed for private ends” falls as it was a State sanctioned act. In the case of Peter Bethune there seems to be little evidence that his action was an illegal act of violence or detention, or an act of depredation.
However a flagged ship is sovereign territory while in international waters, hence the attack on a Turkish flagged ship by the Israeli military is tantamount to an invasion of Turkey by Israel.
I think that we should cut TR some slack.
Many issues are announced and then left and right line up and argue it out. Occasionally there is an issue that is so clear that thinking members of the other side will concede it.
This is one of those issues. Well done TR. I promise to do the same when I strike an issue where the left are being idiots.
By all means send the head Israeli diplomat packing. Don’t buy their bloody dolmas or olives either. Be rude to their tourists too until they get the message. The majority of Israelis have served in the army or on farms on stolen land, they are complicit.
There is a small union and left movement in Israel but it’s members are treated as “unpatriotic’ at best and commonly imprisoned. So it is basically ok to heap as much opprobrium as you can spare for this artificial state founded on a violent zionist landgrab in 1948.
Since the the mid 60s Israel has defied hundreds of UN resolutions, they are renegades in the international community. The Warsaw ghetto of WWII was appalling, what has bought these people to inflict similar treatment on the Palestinians?
Yes more Arab world help is needed, yes hamas and fatah should be united, but what about the US and Europe pulling the rug out? that would be a game changer, but I guess many are very worried about Israel going nuts with the nukes if they feel they have “nothing left to loose’.
“Be rude to their tourists”
In Thailand last year I passed a guest house with a sign ‘No Israelis’ then another, so intrigued, I stopped and asked why, ‘Don’t pay, very rude, complain all the time’ was the theme.
Then in Laos I joined a crowd yelling at some people swimming in the Mekong. I thought they were in danger of drowning. But it turned out to be 4 Israel lads swimming naked. They were diving off a jetty and performing to the crowd laughing their heads off. Finally Police arrived and ordered them out of the water.
That night I saw the guys drinking at a bar, so stopped and asked about the swimming episode earlier. ‘We swim naked all the time in Israel’ was their answer, ‘Why shouldn’t we do it here?’
There is something amiss with some Israeli’s. Heard it explained as persecution complex but still perplexed that their attitude should provoke such dislike in countries like Thailand and Laos.
Yeah. I wouldn’t judge Israelis by the actions of their tourists in Southeast Asia. I’ve spent a lot of time there as well, and found them to generally be pricks, but after extensive conversations with them, it seemed to come down to the fact that they come to Southeast Asia (and elsewhere) to unwind after their mandated spell in the IDF. So they’re blowing off several years’ worth of steam, recalibrating jumpy nerves, getting to actually be 20somethings for the first time, and doing so in a comparatively unrestricted environment, often for the first time away from family and other social constraints, and with a shitload of money.
Not that this excuses them, but there is some context to their misbehaviour. And to be honest, many Brits and Aussies and Kiwis aren’t much better in similar circumstances.
One other thing: if you get into a disagreement, there’s no better bunch of people to have on your side. ‘Course, better not to get into such situations in the frist place …
L
coolas – I encountered the same thing (for the same stated reasons) in Nepal
Do you honestly not see how racist you are being. “I saw 4 Isralies doing this ” and then judginf them all upon that example. It’s no better than seeing a couple of accidents with Asian drivers and using that as your proof that all Asian drivers are terrible.
As Lew says I have seen many Kiwi’s acting complete asses over seas (I travel a lot) but thankfully I don’t get lumpped in with them by a bunch of racists.
one more thing…
link below to one of the sponsor sites involved in the $20 million aid flotilla which the people of Gaza will not now receive.
http://www.vivapalestina.org/
Israel hasn’t signed the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea or, afaik, the San Remo Manual.
So the Mediterranean is a “Jewish” sea and all its waters territorial to Israel? Good move.
A parallel with the Warsaw Ghetto is apt. Just imagine what the Nazis would have done when a Jewish aid agency organised a delivery of goods and kitchen knives. But it looks like the IDF could still learn a thing or two from the SS. The Kriegsmarine wouldn’t have left one boat afloat.
There’s no reason to expel the Israeli ambassador over this. We didn’t kick the Chinese out over Tiananmen Square or Tibet, we haven’t kicked the US out over Guantanamo, or the Thai one over the recent killings there. We wouldn’t have many ambassadors left if we went on in that vein. The Aussies didn’t kick out their israeli ambassador over the recent passport issues.
It’s a silly call for an action that is inappropriate to usual standards of diplomacy – sounds more like the kind of stuff you get in student union resolutions than a supposedly serious political discussion.
Israel has acted despicably but anything we do is going to have no effect so let’s be a bit more measured rather than petulant in our response, preferably working with Like minded countries.
we should have kicked the chinese out of tiananmen. The US, yeah, I’m afraid there has to be some realpolitick some times.
NZ Govt response. Not bad.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1006/S00001.htm
Real test will be in Parliament: whether McCully moves a motion commenting on these events or not, Keith Locke is sure to do so.
L
Here’s Keith’s media release.
i.e., popping over to the newly opened diplomatic post for another round of drinkies, no doubt.
Israel has the right to self-defense. “Peaceful” flotilla with armed people on board? I doubt it.
there weren’t any armed people on board until the came down the ropes from the helicopters armed with machine guns.
what would you do when armed people start shooting indiscriminately? Stand like a sheep waiting to be next or grab whatever you can and fight for your life?
Well, ask yourself, was dropping heavily armed troops in at midnight likely to lead to a clean resolution or panic and uncertainty? Frankly I think the result was entirely predictable.
Why not do what most countries in the Persian gulf are doing shadowing and stopping with clear warnings and controlled boardings and searches in daylight so everyone knows what’s going on. Do you really think these ships could have berthed if the Israelis didn’t want them to?
apparently the IDF had paint guns used for riot control, with pistols as backup. Looking at the videos i have seen, the people on the ship started attacking the IDF troops one by one as soon as they landed on the ship. After being hit by metal bars and stabbed repeatedly, the troops then opened fire. The IDF did not shoot first.
Very screwed up and should not have happened, but i don’t think the piece activists are totally innocent in all of this, screams more of a set up than anything else. More will come out on this in the next few days. Will be interesting.
Propaganda is flying around, as to be expected. Those videos. IDF edited by any chance?
And why didn’t the non lethal riot control measures work? Nope, nothing for it but to start shooting live rounds, afterall, those civilians can be pretty tricksy for elite commando forces.
All I’m saying there is, it’s way too early to be taking IDF video at face value and declaring that After being hit by metal bars and stabbed repeatedly, the troops then opened fire. The IDF did not shoot first.
Agreed. Although hard to stay calm and objective, I will be awaiting some evidence before making up my mind. Tho initially disgusted by what the IDF had done, I am now prepared to wait until all the cards are on the table.
yeah, i saw a paint gun in that IDF video too but that video clearly doesn’t start with the first soldier landing and it might not be the first ship.
You think they planning to invade Israel with some knives and sticks?
no i think they were trying to provoke exactly what happened.
The following is the transcript from Al-Jazeera TV:
Reporter: “Despite the Israeli threats and several unexpected delays, the arrival of the ships at the meeting point before sailing to the Gaza Strip inflamed the emotions and the enthusiasm of the participants.” Visuals from Gaza flotilla ship of young Muslims shouting Islamic battle chant invoking the killing and defeat of Jews in battle:
“[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!”
[Khaibar is the name of last Jewish village defeated by Muhammad's army and it marked the end of Jewish presence in Arabia in 628.]
Reporter: “While singing songs reminiscent of the Palestinian Intifada (Palestinian terror war against Israel, 2000 – 2005), participants expressed their longing to reach Gaza.”
A participant: “Right now we face one of two happy endings: either Martyrdom or reaching Gaza.” [Based on Islamic call before battle: "Either victory or Martyrdom".]
[Al-Jazeera TV, May 29, 2010]
And that made the Israelis board the ship at night and start shooting people did it?
No, but they would have known that by trying to breach the blockade they would have been boarded. I think it was a set up with clear intention to try and kill Israeli soldiers, while breaching the blockade to enter Gaza.
I’m not saying that what the IDF did was right, i think the whole situation in the middle east is f*cked up and everyone needs to chill out a little bit. what I am saying though, is that this was a deliberate attempt to provoke the IDF into what has happened.
many of the people aboard were over the age of 60.
they were peace activists, not people intent on goading the IDF into shooting them with machine guns.
you are not half as calm and objective as you’d like people to think you are Andrew.
you sound like IDF to me
“no i think they were trying to provoke exactly what happened.”
you think they wanted to get themselves massacred in international waters by engaging in hand to hand combat against armed commandos?
if their aim was to kill israeli soldiers they would have thought to bring an AK or two, eh?
“you think they wanted to get themselves massacred in international waters by engaging in hand to hand combat against armed commandos?”
yes, “Either victory or Martyrdom”, that’s a pretty strong case i would have thought. Maybe they had the odd gun, maybe they didn’t. But the headline “IDF shoots unarmed activists”, sounds a lot worse than “IDF shoots armed activists in self defence” doesn’t it?
Going by what i have seen and read at the moment i think it was deliberate. If evidence comes out to the contrary i will be changing my mind.
So you won’t be changing your mind, will you, Andrew? All that’s going to happen from here is a lot of self serving, patronising bollocks from the Israelis and a lot more misery in Gaza.
Mind you if it will help, I can tell you that the Intifada was not a ‘terror war against Israel’ it was a poorly armed defence against a fascist army of occupation.
And while I’m on the subject, how does one shoot someone ‘in self defence’ if one is illegally boarding a registered vessel in international waters?
It’s like if someone busts into your house and you grab a baseball bat to see him off, and he pulls a gun and shoots you dead. You’re equally to blame, self defence, you shouldn’t have provoked him etc.
“So you won’t be changing your mind, will you, Andrew? All that’s going to happen from here is a lot of self serving, patronising bollocks from the Israelis and a lot more misery in Gaza.”
Well that’s very patronising of you. Thanks for telling me what i wont be doing. not all news comes out of Israel you know. I tend to make up my own mind based on all evidence i have seen, not just from one side.
But please, carry on and tell me what i wont be doing next.
“(Palestinian terror war against Israel, 2000 2005)”
That’s your quote, right? It’s pretty clear where you stand so don’t try and pretend you are floating on this and could be convinced to head in another direction. If the facts that we do know (armed attack on a vessel in international waters) aren’t enough to make you waver, what facts do you need?
TVoR, Andy is quite clearly a sleeper agent for the perfidious Persians…
more here
Thanks Pb, that makes more sense than anything either side will ever say..
no, please stop with this annoying habit of telling me what i think. your summary of “facts” are: “armed attack on a vessel in international waters”
a) i don’t think the vessel was in international waters, it was being stopped from entering the blockade into Gaza after repeated attempts to stop it, and
b) it has not been proven that it was a blatant attack on the vessel, rather a boarding searching for weapons that went wrong when the troops were attacked by the people on the boat.
All visual evidence that could contradict the IDF videos has been confiscated by the IDF. All reports about the invasion of the aid vessels are being controlled by the PR industry around the IDF.
The few bits of non IDF evidence available and screened on BBC and Al Jazeera along with the IDF clips show an unarmed vessel being boarded by heavily armed soldiers / commandos who were then, on one vessel, met with justifiable opposition as crew members attempted to stop an act of piracy on the high seas.
The Israeli Government has been shown to be involved in the assassination of a Hamas leader in Dubai (another act of terrorism on another country’s soil). This action is merely another act in Israel’s arrogant and belligerent international policies.
What would convince you that the activists didn’t have the death wish plan to make the IDF look bad?
To me, that looks like unprovable nonsense and doesn’t really make much sense. If they planned to kill IDF members, why did they just have sticks and basic knives when a gun would be a much easier way of provoking things and be harder to see on the video footage?
Also, the ‘plan’ (attack IDF commandos with sticks when they board, get shot dead) relies on the IDF acting like a bunch of ill disciplined thugs. In which case why is it the activists fault in any way? The IDF had the power not to act like thugs, and that would have foiled their dastardly plan.
That’s why it looks like a really bs argument. You’ve accepted a damning interpretation of activists actions, based on what you think is in their heads, and are demanding eveidence that it isn’t true. So what would that evidence look like?
no, i am going by what i have read and seen on al jezera. nothing more.
any bets Andrew is IDF?
I’ll take that bet. $1,000 to Amnesty International if he’s not, my grand to a charity of your choice upon presentation of proof that he is.
L
I suppose checking his passport wouldn’t help – probably belongs to a tetraplegic in the Wairarapa.
ha ha, nutter! Yes, I’m IDF and know where you live … (insert evil laughter here)
All i was saying is that i think that particular vessel had the intention of causing this international indecent. 5 of the other vessels were boarded without indecent. I am in complete agreement, however, that Israel were wrong to board the vessel that far out at sea.
If that makes me IDF in your eyes then so be it.
What? JND, are you saying that your outrageous assertion is unfalsifiable?
Well, I’m shocked. Just shocked.
L
Andrew, in English the word is “incident”, not “indecent”.
Lew, yes you can learn a lot by studying your enemies – just look at how much the Israelis have learned from the Nazis.
jnd – In English, it’s a typo … pedant
Well technically it’s not a typo, you just typed the wrong word.
Ahem: “The term includes errors due to mechanical failure or slips of the hand or finger,[1] but usually excludes errors of ignorance, such as spelling errors.”
I suspect that it may, in fact, have been a Freudian slip.
How’s that for pedantic?
yep, that’s right up there
please excuse the double post, mucked up spam word and it got posted at the bottom.
Oh and while im on the subject. I don’t think the boats were in international waters. Both Egypt and Israel are enforcing a blockade on Gaza to minimise the number of rockets that the Gazans can shoot at Israel.
Israel gave the vessel every opportunity to dock and be searched for weapons.
Well, CNN and the BBC disagree with you. Both say the piracy took place in international waters (60 miles and 70 miles out respectively). I could look at the other news agencies, but they are going to say the same. Hell, even the IDF haven’t claimed it was inside Israeli territory as far as I can tell, so you’re on your own there
Whether or not the flotilla should have taken the option of docking in an Israeli port and trusting the Israelis to pass the aid on to the Palastinians, there is no justification for this appalling attack. No justification at all.
ok, see this is what i mean by confusion in a situation like this. I first read reports that the ships were trying to breach the blockade to get into Gaza. The Gaza blockade is only 3 miles off shore. But now i see (thanks to you) that the ships were boarded 60 kms off shore, So clearly they were miles away from the blockade.
Yes, this makes it a lot worse for Israel.
Cheers, Andrew. Whew, time for a cuppa and a lie down for me …
Check the definition of piracy provided above. As this was an action that was sanctioned by a government it is by law not piracy. Not matter how many times you say it.
The Israelis seem to accept it was in international waters when they responded to critics and said It is not against international law to board a vessel in such a position when enforcing a blockade, so they had not done anything wrong
Ah, the delicious irony of history: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/31/echoes-of-raid-on-exodus-ship-in-1947/
“…On July 18, as the ship neared the coast of Palestine, the British Navy intercepted it. Captain Ahronovitch tried to break through, but two British destroyers rammed the ship. Several hours of fighting followed, with the ship’s passengers spraying fuel oil (which, according to the Royal Navy, they then attempted to ignite in order to incinerate HM sailors) and throwing smoke bombs, life rafts and whatever else came to hand, down on the British sailors trying to board, The Times reported at the time. Soon the British opened fire. Two immigrants and a crewman on the Exodus were killed; scores more were wounded, many seriously. The ship was towed to Haifa, and from there its passengers were deported, first to France and eventually to Germany, where they were placed in camps near Lübeck…”
One suspects the Royal Navy showed a higher degree of restraint and disipline in 1947 than the IDF can manage in 2010. One can only speculate on the death toll at the hands of the Israeli Navy had these ships been as well prepared and defended as the Exodus.
Israel had good relations with Turkey. Surely it would have been possible to arrange for the ships to be searched for weapons before they sailed?
Israel’s response can only be seen as a gross over reaction by a military state against foreign civilians. At a time when Hamas have done a pretty good job of limiting rocket attacks from Palestine it is a PR disaster. What was Netanyahu think\ing?
Well Israel used to have “good relations with Turkey” until Turkey discovered that Israel planned to kill Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister.
Maybe that soured the Turkish/Israeli relationship?
Israel increasingly takes its behaviour cues from American action in the Middle East. First, the cruel siege of Iraq in the 90s where vital medical and other supplies were blocked as dangerous from reaching the Iraqi people leading to the preventable deaths of 500,000 children: a slow strangulation prior to the invasion of 2003. This is what Israel is doing to Gaza: its determined not to let Gaza recover. The ruthless cruel assault on Gaza commiting war crimes, killing mostly civilians and using phosphorus mirrors the cruel war crime invasion of Iraq using the weapon of mass destruction depleted uranium which poisons the environment for thousands of years . The assault on Fallujah was a direct precursor to the Gaza assault. The carefree regrettable loss of civilian life(Collateral damage} mirrors the loss of civilian life in Iraq and Afghanistan when bombs kill innocents rather than combatants. The drone attacks in Pakistan almost certainly kill more innocents than Taliban.Iran is under threat.The Middle east from Gaza to Pakistan is and potentially is a War Zone and the US and others are there because of oil.So we should be calling in not only the Israeli Ambassador for a ticking off but the American one as well which has provided the new aggressive road map for its client state Israel.
Israel is the North Korea of the west. It is a major destabilising force in relations between Muslims, Christians, and the rest of the world. It is armed from USA money and equipment, and the Jewish people who like to live in the USA in peace bribe that country’s politicians so that it will support an Israeli regime of old generals who have become politicians.
These old men and their followers practice an aggressive military control over Palestine and foment situations which inflame the Palestinians so keeping the hostilities going. They do not desire peace for Israelis because that will undermine their own power, their comments explanations and justifications are lies or half-lies, they run a vicious secret service which assassinates and kidnaps people.
The end of WW2 saw Jews in ships searching for a haven, often denied. Now they themselves turn on small ships providing a range of necessities to Gaza including armaments to defend themselves against this warrior nation. They have locked up Palestinians in an enclave and erected huge fences rather than make positive and honest agreements beyond small exceptions.
Israelis have a country but will not acquire the skills to achieve peaceful relations with their neighbours. They do not defuse the hurt they have caused Palestinians only justify repeating what they suffered 50 years ago.
captcha individually
As usual the bulk of the comments rage around the individual incident and opinions about it instead of seeing as part of a larger picture. Like not seeing the forest for the trees.
I dont care much about arguments from Isreal, or pro Isreali….I have heard them for too long and they are still vacuous. I am totally disgusted by their actions, and the support they recieve fom the USA. Comparisons with the Nazis, SS, Soviets and the NKVD are in order for their actions. As Jews they demean the memory of their people at the hands of similarly unfeeling homicidal regimes. It is no excuse, in fact it is the singular reason not to act in this manner.
@john
“Israel increasingly takes its behaviour cues from American action in the Middle East”
Or is it the other way around, the 1999 “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” policy document was perpared by study group which included (amongst others) Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser for then Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and advocated:
Then in 2000 the policy document “Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategies, Forces, and Resources For a New Century” was authored by the neo-con think tank “Project for a New American Century”. The neo-conservative which includes members such as (amongst others) Richard Perle – who prepared the “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm” policy document for Netanyahu. The PNAC policy advocated that the US “fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theater wars”.
Second an NZ Frigate to escort the next convoy….worked in the 70s.
Although we then run the risk of ships being sunk in Auckland habour again; I wonder whos passports they would steal to get into NZ.
Just watched Fox News.
This is a Turkish plot to further their Islamist designs on a new Ottoman Empire. So there you go. Knew I must be missing something.
What is Labour’s position on the Gaza flotilla incident? Do we have an official statement yet?
Bomber, it’s here. Pure boilerplate.
L
In 1945 my father, having just been at sea for the duration fighting Nazis had the great pleasure of being stationed in Gaza and shot at by the Stern gang. The Isreali state began life as a gangster terrorist action, and has stayed that way. They are the gangsters that once assisted and now direct US policy in the Middle East. Things have not changed in 65 years.
Haven’t been onto kiwiblog yet, any guesses how many posts it takes for them to switch Israelis for Jews?
Manolo Pedreschi, Moron of Wilton tries his hardest and gets in early after only 57 minutes, defending the indefensible, a Jewish State. But first prize goes to Mr Christopher Thomson, in a staggeringly quick 1 hour and 1 minute, accusing those of criticizing Israel of being anti Semites. Well done!
***accusing those of criticizing Israel of being anti Semites***
That kind of smearing usually comes up when Israel/Palestine is debated. Stephen Walt who co-authored ‘The Israel Lobby’ discusses handling smear campaigns.
http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/02/22/on_grabbing_the_third_rail
Why is David Farrar so pro Israel?
He claims it’s because he has Jewish heritage but really it’s just because he tends to side with the powerful, the aggressors, and the authoritarians in most situations.
If that be so felix, my memory of Psychology studies would deem DPF a fascist. ie enamored by power. aggression and authority. Makes sense.
he was supporting the Chinese justice system the other day, which is all about power, control, and brutality. authoritarian of the fascist ilk
he’s of Austrian extraction, perhaps it’s a guilt thing
Has anyone here actaully seen the footage? The so called peace acitivists were pretty violent.
Yeah, they seemed unreasonably upset with the people attacking them. I notice that most of them refused to give the bullets back as well. Ungrateful bastards. Being dead is no excuse for bad manners.
I’d be pretty violent if armed men attacked me and my friends.
What you you do? Kneel down and pray for a painless death?
How many Israelis dead? Zero, with a few injuries..
How many aid workers? 19+ shot to death and dozens more injured
That’s all we need to know about the levels of violence employed and who was employing it.
So you saw the footage then?
You mean the footage of those fuckers with the guns dropping out of the chopper to attack that boat? And the ensuing melee as the people on the boat tried (and failed) to defend themselves?
Yeah I saw it. What of it?
I mean the warnings that they gave the uhm acitivists before they boarded. Instead of showing their hands to surrender peacefully, they grab weapons, and got violent, throwing people over board.
As has already been said Brett if I came to your house with a gun should I not expect you to defend yourself? Or do you believe, as so many here do, that the robes of state give these men some mystical power to rise above the ordinary morality that applies to individuals?
If a police officer came to my house or the arm defenders squad, I would put my hands up, i would not attack them.
How is that relevant?
It’s a foreign country’s army, Brett, not the local coppers.
p.s. “arm defenders”. You’re taking the piss aren’t you?
if soldiers from another country invaded your house in the middle of the night and started attacking people. what would you do then, brett? die on your knees or on your feet?
Obviously Brett you would answer in the affirmative to my question regarding mystical power and the robes of state. The fact of the matter is it doesn’t matter if it’s Israeli commandos, a New Zealand police officer or the arm defenders squad (whatever that maybe) an act of aggression is an act of aggression. The people aboard that boat were stopped not because they had done anything wrong, but the Israelis were enforcing an inhumane embargo against Gaza thus the Israelis are the aggressors. If the police had come to your house with guns because you were for instance growing cannabis they are the aggressors because you have committed no offense against another, you did not infringe upon the rights of another, and neither did those trying to deliver aid to Gaza, you’ve only transgressed against some edict on a piece of paper, you have a right to defend yourself against the aggressors (the police in this instance) just as those aboard those ships did.
The footage taken by the protesters was cut short by IDF jamming technology.
Why would they do that, if they were not going to do something they wanted to hide?
No doubt the cameras kept recording even when their transmissions were jammed.
Will the IDF ever allow the data stored in the protesters camcorders to be released?
More likely the cameras data will be erased, or the cameras either held onto or destroyed by the IDF.
Confirming for all the world the Israeli’s guilt.
Again as in the reason for the electronic jamming, if the IDF have nothing to hide why don’t they release all the footage from both sides?
Being right wing and typically shallow, you won’t be demanding that level of disclosure, will you Brett?
Being in the military I can tell you that jamming when carrying out a boarding is standard practice. As to the camera’s on board the ship I agree it probably has the most important footage on it. Hopefully it won’t take long for it to reach the light of day.
yup. if you want to defend murder simply because it’s Israel doing the murdering, have the courage to do it, Brett. Stop pussyfooting around.
Snoozer:
Write any posts like this, when sucidie bombers starp bombs to themself and kill inoccent civilains?
I guess violence is only bad when its Israel.
No mention of article 5 yet (which designates an attack on 1 member an attack on all), but this puts pressure on the US in a new way…
Oh yeah that’s right Turkey is a member of NATO. Didn’t the USA use article 5 of the NATO charter to attack Afghanistan? How does this play out? USA+NATO vs Israel?
By the way:
“Turkish Sources – Israeli Advance Target Assassination List Found on Flotilla”
Maybe Israel should be ejected from the OECD?
If that’s true, it’s pretty damming indeed.
the OECD is just an economic club and Israel’s not a member
perhaps it’s time for an economic blockade of Israel?
Israel is in the OECD
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Israel+OECD
Those IDF troops are impressive. Not only did they manage to compare faces to photo’s while dropping down lines and being beaten by sticks they then managed to pick them out of the crowd and shoot them. Can’t wait to see these list because I am sure this sort of release is no more inflamatory and stupid than a lot of the rubbish coming out of Israel.
Crashcart: My thoughts precisely on both sets of claims. The ‘hit-list’ looks like utter crap to me. The usual Israeli PR bullshit looks like providing the convenient fig leaf for those who prefer not to look too closely at Israels policies and actions.
What puzzles me is why in the hell the Israelis did all of this in the middle of the night? A normal blockade operation would be done during the day precisely to prevent this type of casualty list. Freighters are not exactly well equipped to deal with armed frigates or even patrol boats.
The only explanation that I can come up with is that the Israelis were hoping for a quiet fiat accompli – which they monumentally failed in. In international law their blockade of Gaza is pretty damn shaky, especially in international waters. They probably thought that this would avoid most of the legal questions around their actions.
Just a NB about a book that could be pertinent. Might shine a light on this unlovely murky conflict.
My Israel Question
by Antony Loewenstein
(Melbourne University Press, ISBN: 978-0-522-85706-1)
Reviewed Kim Hill 22/May I think.