Written By: - Date published: 8:08 am, June 1st, 2010 - 257 comments
Categories: crime, human rights, International -
Tags: israel
Heavily-armed Israeli commandos have murdered at least 19 civilians in an unprovoked attack in international waters on a flotilla of ships trying to get aid to occupied Gaza. Reports indicate several times that many civilians are wounded. Details are sketchy because Israel has taken control of the ships, detained surviving the passengers and crew, and taken the civilians’ communication equipment.
Israel is claiming its heavily-armed commandos were forced to kill 19 people because some of them may have attempted to defend themselves. Not acceptable. Clearly a post hoc attempt to justify murder, and not a good one at that.
And, of course, this latest outrage is simply one more atrocity in half a century of brutal occupation.
New Zealand must expel the Israeli ambassador. There’s no place for this criminal regime in our country.
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Of course the ships had to be stopped becuase they were carrying weapons …. bits of 4×2 and steel bars. Sadly this is just another example of IDF/Israeli thuggery. The blocade is illegal so any action enforcing it is illegal too. As for an Israeli investigation sure! Get the Fox to investigate the attack on the hen house. Yeah Right!
This thread, and the one over at Kiwiblog, just goes to show how insidious is the jewish penetration of propaganda is in promoting their false ideas of right and wrong, with their justification for the concentration camp called Gaza.
As the Israeli spokesman said this morning, it might have been their Prime Minister, “protecting us from thousands of rockets fired at us from Gaza” actually I gather last year Hamas have restrained most and only around twenty were fired. We also have the knowledge dating from around the time of the Napoleonic Wars that Congrieves rockets were very ineffective as killing machines …. so obviously they are a nuisence but no way a real danger. Crossing the road or driving a car under the influence a far bigger danger to the people in Israel. Just one person killed by a rocket last year I understand. now the IDF have killed nine in retaliation in just one short event.
is it religion that drives these mad people? I mean, that is the only difference between them isn’t it.
As such perhaps the UN should ban religion.
imagine
Because prohibition works so well.
L
Better idea, educate people and provide better wages, which over time result in a down-swing in strong religious associations for the majority of people. However, given the outlier of the US, sort of having a state religion seems to help and increases in inequality and/or political and economic instability drives up religion. There’s also the no-hope crowd, who seem to have a strong dependency when it comes to the more hard-core sects, but even in the USA they lack the power to impact on an d reverse human rights reforms when it comes to groups they don’t like.
It just takes time unfortunately.
“I mean, that is the only difference between them isn’t it.”
you’re kidding right? the continuing theft of land and water is not a significant difference to you? the ongoing expansion of settlements? the continued and constant denial of building permits for palestinians to build homes on their own land? the marriage act that stops someone from the occupied territories marrying an israeli citizen? the detention without trial, or access to lawyers? the closed military courts, and trials where defendants aren’t allowed to see the evidence against them? none of this (and so much more i haven’t got time to mention) would be a cause for “difference between them”, as you so eloquently put it?
well, i guess it must be just religion then.
If Iran had done it there would be bombs dropping over Tehran by now.
Illuminatedtiger:
If Iran had of done it no one on the left would be blogging about it, or complaining.
So whaddya reckon Brett? You’ve not said yet AFAICT.
Anything Israel done lately you’d like to say was pretty shit, stupid, illegal, counterproductive, and immoral?
Or are you just outraged at the outrage? Because obviously, the important lesson from all of this is about the left in NZ.
Yes Brett.
Those on the left – especially those who frequent this site – are well known for turning a blind eye to violent acts by military forces against civilians.
In fact I bet without any effort at all you could find a few examples to prove it. Whaddayareckon Brett?
edit: Snap Pb
felix:
Actually felix, those here do turn a blind eye to violent acts committed by certain groups or they try to make excuses for why someone did a violent act.
If your really for peace, then you would always be for peace and make no excuse for whos doing the violence, and I dont see that here.
ah that would require you to open your eyes Bretty
sprout:
Why do I need to open my eyes, Im merly pointing out that some people here have in the past have made excuses for violent acts.
If you were for peace, people wouldnt do that.
I asked if you could show any examples.
I’ll take it that’s a “no” then.
When people here talk about 9/11, they said it happened because of american policies. They even thought it was fair enough when a memorial got vandalise.
It was quite sad, that people can have so much hate in them.
When people here talk about 9/11, they said it happened because of american policies.”
that’s not the same as saying it was morally justified – it’s talking about cause and effect. You are saying the Israelis were right to kill those people.
Im saying if someone attacked them with a weapon, they have the right to defend themselves.
“Im saying if someone attacked them with a weapon, they have the right to defend themselves.”
Yes, the people who were attacked had the right to defend themselves.
“Brett.
Here’s what you said less than an hour ago:
“those here do turn a blind eye to violent acts”
Hurry up and find an example.
Well its late and im going to bed, im guess you could google certaiun threads here, goodnight.
Brett, are you going to apologise or are you going to provide an example?
jeez you’re a drongo Bretty.
stay in the bog where you have a chance of looking clever.
If Iran had of done it no one on the left would be blogging about it, or complaining.
Brett: That is the weird thing.
With the exception of the US embassy stuff in the late 70′s, Iran pretty much abides by international laws and even has a pretty good record in the UN. Israel on the other hand, ignores both international law and the UN most of the time.
I don’t particularly like the political system in Iran. But I don’t like it in Israel with their apartheid system both towards their residual Arab citizens and their Arab citizens they did earlier ethnic cleansings on.
Which do you think needs to be looked at with more concern? A state that generally abides by international conventions, or one that flouts them?
Well Lew you would have to ask Sue Bradford about that. (lew’s 8.31 comment. silly technology and reply buttons)
But back to subject.. upon reflection (very short due to irrelevant subject matter) it seems there are in fact not one but two differences between jews and palestinians, religion and head dressings. Otherwise same. Which shouldn’t be surprising. They live in the same land and have no doubt mixed genes all over the small and insignificant place.
I just dunno what all the fuss is about. Haven’t ever.
It’s just religion and head dressage. And culture and history, but we all know how subjective and confusing that is. Call me an ignorant kiwi. Or call me someone calling it from the furthest and most objective place on the planet.
You’re an ignorant kiwi, vto.
L
Well that was a sitter wasn’t it.
I would suggest you have an ignorance about the musings and life machinations of the largest portion of any population Lew. Which makes it anything other than ignorant.
And apart from that, what else is it? if its not religion, headwear, culture and history… in short
Oh, no, “history and culture” largely covers it. After all, those comprise virtually everything which distinguishes one genetically-similar population from another.
It’s appending them as an afterthought is what makes you seem ignorant.
L
Yes that’s right (first paragraph not second). History and culture is like some never-full cauldron that is always on the simmer. It will just hold whatever is thrown into it – worthy or not….. and there it starteth and endeth. imo.
I love it. How many lies can you count in the first sentence here, alone?
Heavily-armed Israeli commandos have murdered at least 19 civilians in an unprovoked attack in international waters on a flotilla of ships trying to get aid to occupied Gaza
heavily armed; with paintball guns
murdered: self sefense
19 civilians: 9 flotilla terrorists
unprovoked: the entire flotilla was an intentional provocation. Israel warned them not to come, and offered to bring all the aid to Gaza.
occupied Gaza: occupied, by whom exactly?
Not bad for an opening sentence.
Gee, they shot people to death with paintball guns?
If I board your boat and try to arrest you and you resist and I kill you, how is that self-defence on my part?
What exact act of terror were these people carrying out?
unprovoked. the flotilla represented no threat to Israel
Gaza is occupied by Israel. Israel doesn’t permanently base troops there, except around settlements, but it regularly mounts incursions and maintains complete control over entry and exit. It’s an occupation.
Tell me, have you ever heard of the \”Disengagement\” in 2005 — when Israel LEFT GAZA, destroyed all the settlements, removed all IDF bases, and positioned itself OUTSIDE of Gaza?
Why not look up some news sites from the summer of 2005 before you continue your slanderous lie-fest.
Jameel, occupation is about possession and possession is about control. If you cannot control something then you cannot possess it and therefore cannot occupy it.
So a simple question for you Jameel, who controls Gaza?
Israel blockades Gaza and regularly mounts inclusions where and when it likes. That’s occupation.
I would query the word occupation but I seek other words like encirclement, contained, imprisoned and there must be more. Sure it was ‘nice’ of Israel to withdraw from Gaza but it didn’t really alter the fact that the inhabitants are in effectively a concentration camp.
Let me help you out, Jameel:
The IDF didn’t kill people with paintball guns. They used real guns.
It’s not self defence if you are killing people in an illegal action.
Nobody knows who is dead, as that info has not been released yet. None will be terrorists though, just Turks.
Unprovoked because the fleet was not threatening anyone and was still in international waters, heading toward Palestinian waters.
Israel doesn’t formally occupy Gaza, they’re starving it instead. Bit like the Warsaw ghetto, that last one.
Feel better, now?
heavily armed with paintball guns; Is that how Israeli terrorists arm themselves Jameel?
Murdered in self-defence; but they went onto another persons boat in the middle of the ocean at some ungodly hour of the day with machine guns and lordy knows what other fandangled military killing machinery. So what do you mean???
19 or 9 ….. show the evidence.
Israel warned them? Bring the aid themselves?.. ha ha.
Occupied Gaza? ha ha again. Are you suggesting that Gaza is not occupied? Just like a prisoners cell at night.
piss off
19-0
That is really efficient self defence.
Shame about the los of human life.
Why did they need to defend themselves, why didn’t they realise they had no fucking right to do any of what they did, and get back in their stupid fucking helicopters and fuck the fuck off back to Israel?
Defenders of Israel out there……have you ever thought about the following letters……”n”, “a”, “z”, “i”, “o”, “n”, “i”, “s”, “m”…… ?
By all means come back with some witty John Cleese rearrangement if you must……but for God’s Sake, have think about them and no facile resort to calling me anti-semite !
Nazionism is what it is !
Oh No. “North” has invoked his magic scrabble set of letters, and we must all fall to the ground and prostrate ourselves in homage to the alphabet soup of truth.
That’s it, you’ve definitely convinced me.
you’re the one making excuses for people who boarded an unarmed boat in international waters that was carrying aid to a starving population and killed 19 people (oh, 9 in your count, because that makes it ok, eh?)
Unarmed?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
oh noes, they’ve grabbed poles and they’ve a box cutter!
What did the Israelis have that killed 19 people?
Oh just paintball guns of course.
Dont forget the potato peelers!
Unarmed?
Yes. Those are weapons of opportunity. The first part of that film seems to show that initially the defenders were using bare hands.
The question is why the Israelis were boarding these ships, especially skulking in the middle of the night. Typically blockade operations are done in daylight precisely to prevent this type of problem.
This looks more like the Israelis had other objectives in mind – probably related to diminishing the PR/legal issues with their questionable blockade of Gaza. In which case you’d have to say that the Israeli military monumentally screwed up.
If they truly cared about carrying aid to a “starving” population, why did they refuse Israel’s offer of going to the Ashdod port peacefully for inspection and then Israel would have transferred all the aid to Gaza?
Why are you making excuses for flotilla thugs? If they were really “humanitarian”, it wouldn’t have mattered to them how the aid got there, right?
And do you have any evidence that 19 people were killed? Or is repeating the same lies over and over the easiest way to convince people?
If 9 people were murdered, is that OK?
Why shouldn’t a peaceful ship be allowed to enter a port in a territory that you claim isn’t occupied? Why should they have to turn over aid to the people imposing hardship and occupation on the people that they are trying to help?
Would you be a thug if you hit me after I invaded your home and shot your friends?
Marty; Why isn’t anyone answering the real question?
If they truly cared about carrying aid to a “starving’ population, why did they refuse Israel’s offer of going to the Ashdod port peacefully for inspection and then Israel would have transferred all the aid to Gaza?
Why are you making excuses for flotilla thugs? If they were really “humanitarian’, it wouldn’t have mattered to them how the aid got there, right?
If this was truly an aid mission, why would they have any problem letting their cargo be inspected?
Unless they had something to hide OR they wanted an international provocation.
Why shouldn’t a peaceful ship be allowed to enter a port in a territory that you claim isn’t occupied?
Well, for one, since so many weapons ships try to arm Gaza, its Israel’s LEGAL right to determine if there are weapons on board.
That’s maritime law. Israel tried numerous times to peacefully get the flotilla to divert its course so that its contents can be inspected. IDF soldiers boarded the ship expecting no resistance, because everyone said it was on a “humanitarian” mission. And Humanitarians wouldn’t try to kill you, right?
Oh, and by the way, did you know that Egypt and Gaza share a border?
So, your logic is:
a) they should have given the aid over to the people who weren’t letting them give it to those who need it
b) because they didn’t they were obviously terrorists
c) therefore killing them is cool
Actually after a look around his openly expansionist, racist blog I’d say his logic is far simpler than that – more like “they’re Islamic so therefore killing them is cool”.
Wow: your analysis is stunning.
a) they should have given the aid over to the people who weren’t letting them give it to those who need it
Could you rephrase that in English?
Israel allows into Gaza hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid a month. They offered the flotilla the option of letting it go into Gaza the same way as the rest of it. This way, it would allow for Israel to ensure that military equipment wasn’t smuggled into Gaza, like the routine attempts.
b) because they didn’t they were obviously terrorists
Because they didn’t, it made them suspect..
c) therefore killing them is cool
And therefore, Israel boarded the ship. Had their been no violence, no one would have gotten hurt.
And calling ME a Racist…nice.
And whats wrong with Islamists?
–jameel rashid
جميل ÙÙŠ المقاطعة
If they truly cared about carrying aid to a “starving’ population, why did they refuse Israel’s offer of going to the Ashdod port peacefully for inspection and then Israel would have transferred all the aid to Gaza?
In my opinion, because no-one in their right mind would trust Israel to do much that is civilized when Palestinians are involved. They have a 60 year track record of stuffing them in large concentration camps and destroying any ability of them to lift their society economically.
It would be like giving humanitarian aid to the guards at Buchenwald and asking them to disperse it amongst the inmates for the inmates betterment.
This is merely the latest incident in the saga of Israel – currently the worlds oldest terrorist state.
Either earlier in this thread, or maybe elsewhere I visit, somebody listed a whole lot of aid that Israel has passed on to the people of Gaza. Then earlier today I heard a commentator on radio saying that the aid the Israel let through was just a quarter of what is needed by Gaza. With such restriction I am not suprised that the convoy wished to go directly to Gaza and not pass through jail. It is great news that Egypt has openned its border to permit aid to enter though with stupid restrictions on what is and what is not permited through that has its drawbacks for Aid authorities. It is really sad that the Israelis have this persecution complex which prevents them from behaving like reasonably normal people and getting on with other countries. They have been pariahs for some time now as a result of this mental affliction they suffer from. I expect only ‘tough love’ by America is going to solve their problem and Hillary Clinton’s comments on the subject came as a welcome suprise.
As I see it the trouble with sending aid through Israel is that while some have quoted quite large amounts getting through there is no indication of the time frame and I remember, on which I base my opinion, the situation following the last agression by Israeli into Gaza when aid got to the frontier, Egypt’s, and sat and sat an only very restricted amounts were let through. So I would expect to get a dead matchstick via Israel. The current good news is that Egypt has openned its border crossing, though for how long there is no indication.
Palestine/Israel has apparently become some replay of the Spanish civil war – with the international left and right picking sides.
I blame the Soviet Union …. for supporting the establishment of the state of Israel, then becoming an ally of Arab nation states which wanted to destroy Israel … which brought the left and right divide to the issue …
Here we had a beat the blockade supply run under Turkish flag (resonance to the Warsaw ghetto siege and the post WW2 Jewish refugees ship runs) – but without any arrangement for the ship to berth to be searched later. It was obviously a PR exercise to push moderates to take sides – thus involving the Turks and then via “successfull martyrdom” when the blockade was enforced diplomatically isolate Israel – associate the blockade with acts of violence while Hamas (now successfully empowered and unchallenged across Gaza).
Next time there will be pressure for Turkey to supply a naval guard to the recognised sea border of “Israeli” (which changes what exactly in terms of a blockade being enforced?) or will the Turkish navy refuse to recognise Israeli jurisdiction off the Gaza coast (Egypt also enforces the blockade, such as it agreed between them and Israel, and Egypt occupied Gaza from 1948-1967).
Turkey (a NATO member) is in an interesting position – one wonders if they can find a way out of their predicament.
bah. its all predicaments laid upon a foundation of self-laid blocks.
It is about as useless as Andy Haden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
Pretty brutal attack on the Israeli soldiers. Whether or not it was justified is another question.
I’d be interested to know how many were dead before this video was taken. Context is important and if the crew felt they were going to die, it would hardly be a surprise they fought back. Last night’s initial reports claimed that the attackers were shooting as they came down from the helicopters, so I suppose you defend yourself with whatever is to hand.
The IDF media response is brutally similar to when they kill kids on land and then say it was their fault for throwing rocks. It’s a pathetic over-reaction from a country that really, really should know better.
yup,. that’s the big point. The video clearly isn’t the start of the assault.
I find the claim from the IDF that their commandos were armed with only paintball guns and side arms (for personal defence) far fetched.
From stuff.co.nz
A soldier, identified only as a sergeant, told reporters at a military briefing that the activists on board “were armed with knives, scissors, pepper spray and guns.” He said he was armed only with a paintball rifle. “It was a civilian paintball gun that any 12-year-old can play with,” he said. “I saw my friends on the deck spitting blood.”
I would need to see a lot more evidence for this claim from the IDF than the informal testimony of an anonymous IDF sergeant.
For these reasons;
1. Though I personally wouldn’t give one to a 12 year old boy, Paintball guns are toys.
2. Paintball guns usually come with accessories particularly goggles to protect the eyes of the users from paint splatter, I didn’t see any of the commandos wearing paintgun goggles in the (admittedly limited) photos and video so far released.
2. I didn’t see any video photos of paint scattered about anywhere, the only stains I saw looked like blood.
As I understand it Paint Ball pellets come in a range of colours not just red.
3. The long rifle like weapons that the video clearly show the commandos pointing and carrying had the webbed metal heat shielding around the barrels typical of fully automatic weapons.
The claims that IDF commandos stormed a ship with Paint Ball Guns in my opinion is frankly ludicrous.
In fact I feel like an idiot even trying to treat this claim objectively.
As the saying goes “Extraordinary Claims Need Extraordinary Proof”
Of course for ordinary morons like Brett no proof at all will do.
To be fair Jenny, paintball guns are used in riot suppression usually using what is known as a pepperball (as the name suggests a paintball full of mace). However having said this the footage doesn’t indicate the usage of such weapons, although I wouldn’t categorically rule it out as the video I’ve seen isn’t clear enough to determine the model or make of any weapons in use.
Of course regardless of the ammunition a paintball gun will typically not kill anyone.
Voice of Reason: Do you have any clue about maritime law?
Here’s something for your spare time.
According to the San Remo Manual it is permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels “are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
Yeah about that, try harder next time?
There is more in the rules which could probably be applied and not in the favour of Israel, but I think this is sufficient for now.
One more thing, just how big is this blockade? Genuine question here. I wouldn’t imagine it would stretch beyond Gaza’s littoral waters would you?
And here’s some reading material to back up Luxated’s points:
UNICEF: At a glance: Occupied Palestinian Territory
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/oPt.html
ICRC (Red Cross) report on Gaza (2009):
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine-report-260609
UNHRC Fact Finding Mission on Gaza reports (Goldstone)/media:
http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm
And an oldie, well before the 2008/2009 siege (2003) [PDF] Nutritional Assessment of the West Bank and Gaza Strip:
http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNADA826.pdf
Do you have any humanity, or simply blind antipathy/ideology? – bearing in mind that many here would sympathise with Israelis who may be under threat of rocket fire from Gaza if it were proportional to the ‘terror’ imposed within the blockade. It seem that the Israeli state is, by all outward accounts, politically self-defeating. How is any of this going to better position Israel in an already fragile region, when this sort of activity empowers extremists to react?
(Cue ‘left-wing conspiracy’, and ‘propaganda’ talk c/o ‘Rasheed’.)
It is sad, a tragedy, that Israeli suffer from their persecution complex and cannot say “Yes what happened in the past was dreadful [ a mild word which doesn't decribe it], but we are now in the 21st century” and appreciate there is no future in their current position. They could be such a force for good and progress in the area as a modern sophisticated nation.
I completely agree jcuknz.
Good news from Egypt now – border with Gaza opened for an ‘unlimited time’ – whatever that means – so aid can get through:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6502H820100601
And Britain has called for the Gaza blockade to end and for Israel to allow “unfettered access for aid to Gaza”.
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/?view=News&id=22300485
It’s turning, utterly predictably, into a massive own goal.
Since when has any law anywhere mattered to your zionist friends JR. It is a little late to seriously expect technicalities to play any useful role in the aftermath of this latest murderous incident, apart from symbolically supporting the right of the flotilla to go about their task.
JR, your justification of the unjustifiable by legal small print and other spurious arguments shows you to be what you are: an apologist for a state that murders people in a way reminiscent of European states that once persecuted and murdered defenceless Jews. They too had “legal codes” to justify their outrages. Your support of a country that has turned a whole of Gaza into a concentration camp expresses a degee of moral bankruptcy that is not worth arguing with.
Please be my guest, go to Isreal and take that other apologist for murder (the Isreali ambassador) with you.
“The awful thing about life is: everyone has their reasons.” —Jean Renoir
a) they should have given the aid over to the people who weren’t letting them give it to those who need it
If you cannot understand that sentence Jameel then you need to go back to school and learn some comprehension …. it sums up the situation very well.
One bad report though … Hamas Police turned back Gaza citizens trying to cross the border into Egypt … don’t like the sound of that.