Family members of traitors of the Motherland

Written By: - Date published: 1:16 pm, February 20th, 2013 - 85 comments
Categories: benefits, crime, families - Tags:

No-one likes fraudsters, whether they’re ripping us off as beneficiaries or as suit-clad businesspeople. National’s announced some ineffectual steps to ‘crack down’ on the minor amount of benefit fraud that occurs (no similar crackdown on white collar fraudsters and tax avoiders). But they’ve gone to far in trying to criminalise people just for being partners of benefit fraudsters.

Here’s what the announcement says:

“Currently there are few options available to prosecute partners who know or benefit from such offending, leaving the entire debt with one partner.”

“The proposal will also extend MSD’s ability to seize assets owned or jointly owned by a spouse or partner under the Criminal Proceeds (Recovery) Act 2009, and to recover some of that debt from the partner who has benefited from the fraud.”

Obviously, if you are party to offending – ie you know about it and benefit from it – you should be prosecuted, and you can be already. But it’s nuts to suggest that people could be made criminals just for having been in a relationship with a fraudster and, as part of a single household, unknowingly benefited from the fraud.

That’s Stalin stuff. He created the offence of being Family Members of Traitors of the Motherland for people who had done nothing wrong except have a family member who was an ‘enemy of the people’.

It’s a basic tenant of our society that you can’t be punished for something that you aren’t responsible for.For example, if your mate takes you out for lunch and it turns out the money came, unbeknownst to you, from him holding up a dairy, should you have to pay back the money or go to the clink? Of course not, you didn’t do anything wrong.

National’s ‘get the wives too’ offence is a daft attempt to do away with that founding principle of our legal system. Where the hell is Crown Law?

From what I can see the other changes look pretty minor (keep an eye on the known crims, share info with IRD) and will do bugger all to affect what is already a tiny problem compared to, say, the huge increase in benefit costs arising from National’s failure to create jobs.

But that crazy familial guilt stuff has got to go.

85 comments on “Family members of traitors of the Motherland ”

  1. Rogue Trooper 1

    where will it end

    • Tom Gould 1.1

      This is simply a diversion for the idiot chooks to lead with. Which they will. Works every time.

    • aerobubble 1.2

      A while back there a\was a case where investors investing in a ponsi scheme would have to pay back the profit on their investment since obviously in comes from fraud. And where does that stop.
      I mean if you are getting twice the average return of comparable investments in the market, how can your ignorance of how that money is made be argued (since you recklessness in not knowing) could help your case, it could not, but parties who benefited (say as gifts) would not have known and so should they still be liable? Its still money that is the benefit of fraud. If you receive stolen property then sure you have to give it back, there’s the difference, if however you buy a car that turns out to be stolen, and you did due diligence, then you have a case against those who certified the car as legitimate. so I suppose the question is can the state provide a spouse knew their spouse was telling lies, does depend a lot on whether the state provided information about entitlements, that information was available to the spouse, and they knew it was in error. Like the investor, who needs to be able to do due diligence, a spouse who cannot access their spouses records to check they are telling the truth. Just thoughts.

  2. infused 2

    Is it not the same as receiving stolen property? You get done for that too, regardless of whether you know or not.

    [no you don’t, see comments below. In fact, the example of receiving shows that knowledge or recklessness is required for guilt when benefiting from a crime. Eddie]

    • TheContrarian 2.1

      Interesting point.

      • McFlock 2.1.1

        Not really. Crimes Act 1961 s246 Receiving (1):

        Every one is guilty of receiving who receives any property stolen or obtained by any other crime, knowing that property to have been stolen or so obtained, or being reckless as to whether or not the property had been stolen or so obtained.

        My bold.
        So intent applies for receiving, with a certain fudge for folks playing silly buggers with the “oh, but I didn’t KNOW that the stuff bought off the back of a truck for massively cheap prices was stolen”.

        This means that if I fudge my benefit paperwork without telling my partner, they can be pinged for it. Yet another fucked up nact policy.

    • toad 2.2

      Crimes Act, s 246

      246 Receiving

      (1) Every one is guilty of receiving who receives any property stolen or obtained by any other crime, knowing that property to have been stolen or so obtained, or being reckless as to whether or not the property had been stolen or so obtained.

    • joe90 2.3

      Indeed, but if you’re from the top end of town receiving stolen property isn’t a crime.

      http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/fraudster-reneges-590-000-payback-ihc-4951619

      • Colonial Viper 2.3.1

        Yeah I don’t see anyone going after the wives, husbands, partners and children of convicted fraudsters who lived off the proceeds of theft.

        Usual Tory underclass bashing.

        • TheContrarian 2.3.1.1

          Wouldn’t the Crimes Act, s 246 apply in such cases?

          • Colonial Viper 2.3.1.1.1

            And when has it actually been brought to a prosecution.

          • McFlock 2.3.1.1.2

            Bankrupt. And winz docks the benefit for reparations – IHC wouldn’t have that power.

            Interesting the offer of reparation before sentencing and withdrawn afterwards – probably counts as perjury or contempt if it was a plan to get a lighter sentence.

      • TheContrarian 2.3.2

        What do you mean? She went to jail for 3 years

        • Draco T Bastard 2.3.2.1

          Yeah, I was thinking that as well. The proceeds of the sale of the lodge should have gone to IHC.

    • tracey 2.4

      Nope, nothing like receiving stolen property, not that fact will prevent people making the analogy and passing it into the world of memes to justify gross double standards.

  3. TheContrarian 3

    What an odd thing to do.
    I would certainly be keen to see how they define ‘benefited from’.

    Does that include watching a TV which is powered by electricity which was paid from a fraudulent benefit?

    • Colonial Weka 3.1

      And why just partners? Why not flatmates? Some couples share finances in the same way that flatmates do.

      • Tim 3.1.1

        Don’t give them ideas Weka! They’re already short of a couple of brain cells to rub together. We might find that’s stage two in the fascist march forward.

        • Tim 3.1.1.1

          Actually ….. why not incarcerate the children too. They will have benefited given their ‘reasoning’. Then we’ll get Serco to set up workhouses. Perhaps they could even be used as the labour to build Transmission Gully

      • freedom 3.1.2

        beat them to the end zone, just sell the kids and move it all into south american zinc

  4. quartz 4

    I think they should incarcerate the spouses and children of white collar criminals. And any representative of a political party that has benefited from donations from criminals.

    • Tim 4.1

      There’s an easier option. Just incarcerate, or execute the ring leaders of the fascists as they did post-WWII.
      I’m still left wondering why there is this complete and utter reluctance to label some of the right-wing antics as fascist – especially those that are going beyond the realms of moderate behaviour.

      I remember reading, some time back – I think on politicalpendulum, or somewhere, that a better description of fascism is corporatism.
      The misbehaviour of corporate ‘citizenry’ [ fuck me, now there’s a joke and an attempt at trying to legitimise their imperative in and of itself! ], the incompetence, the snuggling up, the lobbying, the preference of the corporate over the actual citizen and/or voter leads me to think that politicalpendulum (if that’s where it was) is correct.

      • TheContrarian 4.1.1

        Because fascism, as a political ideology, demands strict nationalism and an attempt to remove class divisions as well as, in most cases an expansionist foreign policy.

        These are key definers of fascism which National doesn’t display

        • Tim 4.1.1.1

          Ah! I see! the kind of ‘get-out clause’. So you can fit all but one of the criteria and satisfy yourself you’re not such a fascist, because you’re not a nationalist (which – in your case “the Contrarian”) I think you probably are anyway.

          • Tim 4.1.1.1.1

            oh btw TC (aka “top Cat”), if I don’t reply forthwith, it’s because there are normal day-to day things on the agenda. It’s not that I don’t want to give you my undivided attention – lest you get ideas of non-engagement.

            • TheContrarian 4.1.1.1.1.1

              This conversation has been had on The Standard before.

              National don’t display the key identifiers of Fascist ideology. A key element of all fascistic parties throughout history has been this mass public mobilization to Nationalistic causes, the the attempt removal of class definitions while appealing to the proletariat as well as expansionist foreign policies. These aren’t ‘get-out clauses’ these are key behaviors associated with fascism.

              I don’t care if you engage or not.

              • ..so it seems, to be precise a new word is required.

                Might I suggest Fascionarrowindividualistism-tyrannical-bullshit

              • aerobubble

                Profit is a mass appeal of National, free markets ignore class divisions, expansionist policies of mining, etc, expand and destroy our future.

              • Tim

                Oh really – well apologies – I’m a newcomer.
                …and btw (below). I see no need of inventing a new word, I’d rather describe it as I have.

            • TheContrarian 4.1.1.1.1.2

              A fascist government certainly would not be selling strategic state owned assets and would be trying instead to bring more assets and facets of public utilities under state control.

            • Pascal's bookie 4.1.1.1.1.3

              Tim, not to agree with Contros definition of F, (because it’s rubbish) , when people describe F as corporatism they aren’t talking about modern corporations.

              In Pre-war political theory, corporatism was a political idea that competed with syndicalism or socialism.

              It was about ways of organising economic structures.

              The corporatists weren’t talking about making modern style private business corporates, but rather that that sectors would incorporate. That for example, car manufacturers would get together and carve out co-operative deals and act together strategically. Bread makers and farmers would do the same etc. Each ‘Corporate’ would represent the industry both politically and economically.

              The word has changed it’s meaning basically.

              • TheContrarian

                @PB – it isn’t a definition, it is a characteristic.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  It’s still rubbish.

                  The class stuff isn’t really right at all, and you miss the things that really set them apart, ie characterise, them.

                  Eg. the Nationalsim is of a particular type. It’s about the defining and promoting ‘essence’ of the nation, rather than just ‘my nation right or wrong’. That’s why they spend so much time on defining internal enemies.

                  It’s about action over thought. It’s anti intellectual and anti liberal.

                  • TheContrarian

                    I am aware it is a particular brand of Nationalism – the point was to show that National doesn’t that extreme nationalistic tendency which really sets fascist ideology apart.

                    “Fascism recognizes the occurrence of class conflict, and advocates a resolution to end the division of classes within a nation and secure national solidarity.[9] However fascism publicly favours proletarian culture due to its association of proletarian culture with economic production and claims that the proletariat as producers must have a dominant role in the nation.”

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Try this:

                      http://www.anesi.com/Fascism-TheUltimateDefinition.htm

                      The wiki seems to be based on Mann, but I don’t think he’s that convincing re the proles. What he’s really getting at is producerism (it’s on wikipedia! ) which is a middle and working class populism. The proles are as much a target as the elites, in that proles (such as they exist), in modern societies tend to be made up of ‘outsiders’.

                    • TheContrarian

                      Thanks for the link – I’ll have a gander.

                      There are quite a few competing definitions out there.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      He rambles a bit at the end, fucking libertarians.

                      David Neiwert is good too, just google him and fascism and you’ll be swamped by him beating the shit out of Jonah Goldberg, unless I’m very much mistaken. Which I often am.

                    • TheContrarian

                      You have seen The Wave?

                      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1063669/

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Yeah, people are shits in a bunch, on the whole.

                    • TheContrarian

                      I hear that.

                    • Murray Olsen

                      Wikipedia is hardly ever reliable for specialist, in depth knowledge, and even less so when it doesn’t even spell the word correctly.
                      Kiwi fascism, if it developed, obviously would not involve expanding the motherland by military force and also would need to adapt to the recent accelerated internationalisation of the world economy. It would represent the national capitalists only in so far as they were integrated to multinational interests. It would be anti-intellectual and promote a type of Kiwi blokeishness which would probably glorify hunting, smashing beneficiaries and lamenting the role of “front bums” in society. It would dispense with the rule of law and any ideas of civil rights or due process. I think we are fearfully close.

                  • TheContrarian

                    “It’s about action over thought. It’s anti intellectual and anti liberal.”

                    I like that – succinct.

              • Tim

                @PB yes I’m aware of that… but @ TC “A fascist government certainly would not be selling strategic state owned assets and would be trying instead to bring more assets and facets of public utilities under state control”.
                That is certainly NOT necessarily so.
                Especially so since Fascists attempt to confuse WHAT and WHO the state actually is.
                Fascists would would be bringing more “assets and facets of public utilities under the control” of a master-class elite that has confused what exactly a ‘public’ is comprised of – in ALL its pluarlity.

                If you’d rather we call it neo-fascisim or other newly invented label in order to fit some exact category, or to make you sleep better at night without the taint – so be it. I’d say that this current gubbamint is the closest thing to fascism I’ve ever encountered in this country, and what’s worse – there are a couple of dominatrixes in it that appear to actually get off on it. The only thing that I see that’s different is that they’re not quite as clever as Nazis were, though they’re certainly as underhand and devious.

        • Tim 4.1.1.2

          Oh…. (btw as they say in the connected world) … I don’t necessarily agree that Fascism demands strict nationalism. It may well have in a mid-20C definition of nationalism when a majority associated nationalism with statehood (a la nation-state), but that was always going to be primitive at best. Those creators only ever envisaged an area of turf with a majority that shared common belief. Hence anything foreign was just that. WORSE than that, anything that deviated from an ‘assimilated norm’ should be conquered. Hence ….. some of the most aggregious attrocites ever – South Africa, Rwanda/Berundi, Australia’s White Poicy, and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on ……
          I see a state as a legal definition (which surely you’ll agree with – after all I’m sure you don’t disagree with the very legal definitions that you use to perpetuate your agenda do you?). Whereas I see nationhood as a shared affinity and culture regardless of boundary. I’m sure most tribal affiliations and the nomadic would agree. Possibly even Hitler would agree, except that he could not understand that multiple affinities might, people with more than one cultural understanding, and could co-exist.
          The arrogance of someone to come along and impose their definition is just that – and incidentally – a characteristic INDEED an essential characteristic of fascism. Sound familiar? It’s what we’re seeing now – better make sure you’re on the ‘right-side’ aye? Mussonilini didn’t quite get it.
          We might see a Maori Nation, or indeed a LGBTI Nation, an Anglican Nation, a Nation of Islam (oops…we already have!), an Immigrant Nation all trying to coexist under a NZ Nation(S)-State.
          Anyway – it’s been duscussed before.
          Jah Vol Herr Commandant

  5. Colonial Viper 5

    ugh spambot

  6. In a way I see it is fair enough that partners, who benefit from illegal acts are required to experience the consequences of such.

    What I see as the real problem this issue raises and the thing I find it questionable with welfare distribution is the way our welfare treats those in relationships.

    I fail to understand why people are not paid as individuals and why one receives a different amount (and lesser) when one is in a relationship.

    Now I know the pat answer that Winz workers are trained to address this query “Two people living under one light bulb costs less”

    I find this questionable, it is clear that two people can make savings, however, in order to make the substantial saving that is assumed, requires that the two people ensure they stay in the same room at the same time at all times. (Otherwise “two lightbulbs” are involved….) Two people have two separate costs, such as health, transport and such things requiring two separate outfits per day…..
    Yes, there may be savings, coming out of a joining of two lives, however largely, these savings are very similar to the amount of savings one experiences from flatting in the same house with others, and flatmates are not given lesser rates of assistance.

    This appears to be a human rights issue.

    21. Prohibited grounds of discrimination
    (1)For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are—
    (a)sex, which includes pregnancy and childbirth:
    (b)marital status, which means being—
    (i)single; or
    (ii)married, in a civil union, or in a de facto relationship; or

    I daresay, due to the system being one of welfare this form of discrimination is allowed for (has been exempted from the requirements), however, if people were simply paid as they should be, as individual members of society regardless of their marital status, I believe it would clear up a lot of complications and ensuing costs of calculating married people’s “entitlement” and also the vast costs that must go into investigating this type of “benefit fraud”. It would also clear up the issue that this post raises.

  7. quartz 7

    I think it’s simply a ghastly unprincipled diversion tactic.

    • Yep the nats are on the ropes over Sky City and what happens …

      Some more bene bashing!

      They are so predictable. Someone should do a correlation between embarassing times for the Government and the announcement of social welfare reforms. I suspect the correlation will be startling high.

  8. alwyn 8

    I think that it was a very great shame that the USSR, after Stalin introduced the policy, did not enforce it strictly.
    Included in the people whose families were to be punished, and in that period this meant being killed, were soldiers who had surrendered to the Germans. These included Stalin’s son and the law should therefore have applied to him and his father, Stalin himself.
    It is hard to see how the world could have been worse off from the absence of that maniac.

  9. Aww 9

    Next, they will be going after the hookers (as in the Steven whatshisname case from ASB) and the drug dealers who sold a good or excellent service to the fraudster, … and themselves for benefiting from the GST on any money spent. (Holy heck, can’t believe ASB went after the hooker! She earned it and may have even paid income tax on it.)

    Here is an idea: Make sure all low income earners receive their full and correct entitlement under the current system. That way you remove much of the desperation out there, combat child poverty and improve overall standards of living.

  10. aerobubble 10

    The government has back down on stripping prisoners of any civil rights windfall court payments and giving the money to a general victim fund. Seems someone finally realized that plaintiffs have the need when they win to actually receive a remedy for wrongs done to them. Even criminals.

    This current government has real problems with understanding that the legislator only write the laws, laws actually come effect in courts of law, and if they over reach their power government have the tendency of losing in the courts, costing tax payers. All government decisions can be appealed in courts and so be tested for their lawfulness.

    Key has a problem with fair impartial consultation, look at schools closures issue, etc, so court can and do look at the character of both sides of an action to access the truth of their statements, like govt dealt in good faith.

  11. vto 11

    This disgusts me.

    Why not make it a generic criminal offence, that would catch all fraud, such as the massive white collar and tax-dodging fraud?

    Why restrict it to beneficiaries?

    Why restrict it to beneficiaries?

    Why restrict it to beneficiaries?

    Why restrict it to beneficiaries?

  12. johnm 12

    The Market Pimp’s Government strikes again. 🙁

  13. QoT 13

    National’s ‘get the wives too’ offence

    I find this really interesting because my own first assumption would’ve been more “get the boyfriends” – as in, this targets male partners of hetero women receiving the DPB. Funny how different perspectives work, of course it targets male or female partners of DPB/unemployment/sickness etc beneficiaries equally.

    • the pigman 13.1

      I think it is pretty obviously “get the boyfriends”, because the vast majority of this very low-value fraud is mums on the DPB with live-in boyfriends/on-off abusive relationship partners, who are concealing it from their case workers either because they are afraid of having to exist on even less than they already have to, or their relationship is volatile and unpredictable and they don’t want CYF on their backs so they “ended” that relationship.

    • tracey 13.2

      exactly, which is why we dont have a hunt down the white middle class men cribbing their child care cos the new wife and new kids deserve it more campaign… and when we do, it is hijacked by the “men are not allowed access by their evil ex-wives” campaign.

  14. Tigger 14

    Great post Eddie.

  15. tracey 15

    welfare something is always rolled out as a diversion. Usually Ms Bennett fronts it to take the heat off (in the past education)… and here we go again.

    At least TV3 actually said what benefit fraud costs each year (39m). It failed to point out the percentage perpetrated by employees.

    National announced this morning that the public love it. How could they know so quickly? Or do they just mean the section of the public which they pander to who are less informed on these topics than the politicians will swallow it. Shame on the MPs who KNOW the facts and lie or mislead. The people relying on their representatives to be truthful about this kind of thing are duped again.

    Even infused who is informed has an excuse/justification already on the go … it’s like receiving stolen property.”

    So why aren’t bank robbers wives and partners charged? Why aren’t the wives of directors found to have been fraudulent charged? Why arent parents whose kids are rorting the student loan scheme (with full knowledge of the parents) charged or hunted down?

    And where is the heavy handed effort to chase down unpaid child support????? If a man or woman doesnt pay their child support, but has had a second family, we charge the partner, and put their children into care (afterall we are paying for their children anyway, what’s a couple more)? The answer is because most unpaid or underpaid child support isn’t from beneficiaries… it’s from demographics more likely to vote…. National. And yes, I say that from experience of the area of family law.

    I have never heard as much squealing about the awful and unfair welfare “nazis” as from middle class men who have started a second family and resent paying for the first. The same men who at dinner parties applaud the govt for getting tough on bludgers.

  16. tracey 16

    “The evidence for the existence of widespread benefit fraud is paltry to non-existent – despite the fact that a special fraud intelligence unit was set up in the Social Welfare department in 2007 to detect it. Last year, the department checked 29 million records, and found the benefit fraud rate (as a proportion of the total benefits paid) was a miniscule 0.10 per cent. A declining number of prosecutions – from 937 in 2009 to 789 last year – resulted.

    Of the $16 million in benefit fraud detected last year, a proportion was carried out by social welfare staff – ten of whom were sacked last year for ripping off the system – and not by beneficiaries themselves”

    The exact figures will be known to both labour and national MPs who choose not to share the percentage committed by employees. I can’t wait for Mr Shearer’s timid response being ever so careful not to upset the misinformation being perpetrated for fear of losing voters he never had or will have.

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2011/02/ten-myths-about-welfare/

    I will happily read updated or replacement statistics from those who wish to disagree?

    • xtasy 16.1

      tracey – this talk about “fraud” is also misleading.

      In the strict eyes of MSD a client dependent on a benefit is already committing a “fraud”, if such a person takes on a job and waits a week or two to inform WINZ about this.

      I know many people who took on jobs and waited a week or two to tell WINZ staff about this, because they were nervous and unsure about whether the job may work out. So they waited to see that it would work out for them. If they had told WINZ staff immediately, they would have had their benefit stopped immediately, and in the case of a job not working out, they would be sitting without money to pay for rent, power, food and anything else for a week or two.

      Such overpayments are in some cases treated as “fraud”, well at least included in figures about supposed “dishonesty” or about “claiming a benefit without justification”. Of course hardly any such cases would be prosecuted, but MSD do not look kindly on not declaring changes of circumstances straight away.

      Given there are close to 360 thousand people on some form of benefits, it is riduculous to use the very low number of proven “fraudsters” or “cheats” as justification to introduce new laws that will bring fear and suspicions into the lives of so many on benefits.

  17. Akldnut 17

    So we’ll be seeing Mary English being held to account soon?

    • tracey 18.1

      “The RNZ report also includes this incredible segment:

      The Social Development Ministry says that in 95^% of benefit fraud investigations, the person involved does not provide the necessary data, delaying enquiries by “ at least” 25 days. It estimates this delay costs $3 million a year, and gives the person time to cover up the fraud and destroy any evidence.

      One hardly knows where to start with this insanity. Safe to say, with no other social group would a department tot up its ordinary administrative costs and then – in paranoid fashion – blame them on a plot by the people it is supposed to be serving. Clearly, the Ministry expects all of the information it wants from the very moment it asks for it – because judging by the above, the meter is running from the very moment the Ministry mails out its letter or lodges a call.

      Let’s look at that. Lets assume the Ministry has got the right address, can express its needs clearly and that the information it asks for can be readily obtained. All very big assumptions. Even so, people are getting back to the Ministry in 25 days. In just over three weeks. That sounds pretty good, right? But no, the Ministry doesn’t think so. Because from the moment they send out their request they assume the person is playing for time “to cover up the fraud and destroy any evidence.” Even though 84 % of the time, it is the department that has got the wrong end of the stick, and not the beneficiary.”

      architects, builders, certifiers, plasterers, roofers, developers all had about ten years to destroy their evidence in the leaky home debacle. So often the High Court demands, at the behest of the defendants that an owner provide the evidence of their claim against so-and-so. BUT many owners weren’t the original owners so had no access to documentation… the mantra of these defendants is we destroyed everything after seven years like the law says we can. BUT the Courts accept this lame excuse. Lame, because it is only tax records you DONT have to keep after 7 years. It doesn’t say you MUST destroy invoices after seven years and it says nothing about building contracts etc.

      Everyone of the people in this defendant group knows their liability under the building act is for ten years, and they all would have known within the 7 years given for keeping tax records, that they may have built or inspected or developed a leaky home YET they destroy ALL records… That’s not to count the “floods” and “fires” (undocumented) that mysteriously destroy these kinds of records.

  18. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 19

    This beneficiary crackdown is built on the notion that there is huge fraud going on. There is occasional huge fraud by some inventive trickster, the rest are struggling, trying to manage with obstacles placed in their way by a punitive, hating government. It is the same vicious approach used when men dockworkers went on strike way back. The public were ordered not to help families with food and many disgraceful edicts. .There is a pretence of caring about morality that comes out in the NACT approach. Stop fathers running off, forcing them to accept responsibility etc.

    It’s just another way of making the public suffer as a result of the deliberate running down of the economy, jobs and wages by various governments. Then blame the losers from this process and refuse to see people as of value but just units of welfare and cost to the government.

    This new policy is an indictment on police thinking as Chester Borrows comes from that background and must be following attitudes learned there.
    With a history in policing and the law, Chester’s policy interests are around Law and Order and Welfare.
    He was raised in Nelson and attended Nayland College before entering the Police in 1975 as a 17-year-old Cadet. For 24 years he worked as a uniformed and CIB officer in cities, provincial towns and rural stations before leaving the Police to stand for Parliament in 1999. He attended Victoria University, obtaining an LLB between elections and campaigned again in 2002.

    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      WINZ cheating beneficiaries out of money must be considered fraud too, right?

      • xtasy 19.1.1

        Good point CV!

        Add to that also the fact, that over years, MSD and their largest department WINZ, have resorted to “assessing” and “re-assessing” many sickness and invalid’s beneficiaries – by using their selected, preferred, actually specially “trained” and thus influenced doctors (mostly GPs), and also by having “trained” staff members like Regional Health and Disability Advisors make the recommendations they expect, which in itself is a breach of NATURAL JUSTICE.

        The doctors that are under the Social Security Act supposed to “examine” clients with health issues and conditions are according to that Act supposed to be INDEPENDENT.

        Now, how “independent” are doctors that conduct examinations and make assessments according to criteria set by MSD and that follow expectations by MSD to look rather at anything a sick or disabled person hypothetically “can do”, rather than “cannot do”?

        I would say there have been thousands of decisions by such doctors, that break the law – in particular natural justice!

        So dear Ministers, when are we going to have WiNZ and MSD adhere to the law?

    • tracey 19.2

      it also makes it look like NACT is doing something, when in fact whatever they are doing in this policy is not addressing the billions they have borrowed since 2008, some of it for tax cuts… and for a stagnating economy. The earthquake was terrible but it is also providing this govt with a lifeline

  19. xtasy 20

    “National’s ‘get the wives too’ offence is a daft attempt to do away with that founding principle of our legal system. Where the hell is Crown Law?”

    Crown Law appear to not be consulted all that much these days, and when the government does it, it seems to pick the advice from probably a number of Crown Law experts that suits their intentions and goals.

    This proposed law change and measure is clearly discriminatory, same as a number of proposed law changes under the presently considered Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Bill. It breaches the Bill of Rights Act and Human Rights Act, as it is only targeted at partners of beneficiaries, who may commit some alleged fraud.

    Also is this another proposed law change, which is clearly intended to “appeal” to many in the public, as the mainstream media has over years already prepared the ground for bashing beneficiaries, by reporting only about the very few fraud cases that involve high amounts of dollars, by reporting about other supposed failures, about dishonesty and supposedly “easily” chosen “lifestyles” at the expense of the taxpayer.

    So this is intended to distract from National’s failures in economic and social areas, and National knows, that large parts of the public have a dim view of beneficiaries. Hence many will “welcome” this.

    It is the “collective guilt” approach being applied here, and that raises yet more legal questions, and those are right who ask, why single out beneficiaries and alleged “partners” who “know” about the partner’s benefit receipt, and not tax fraudsters – or any other fraudsters there are.

    I would think that the present law also makes it possible to prosecute a partner, if she/he knew of the fraud being committed by the other. But it seems that MSD and the government really are after pressing monetary compensation out of those partners, who may be guilty of condoning and indirectly participating in such alleged “fraud”. Hence an addition to the law, to make things more convenient to do so. But I expect that there will be problems introducing the law change as it is.

    Anyway: Welfare fraud is peanuts compared to other fraud and to tax evasion or avoidance.

    • Descendant Of Sssmith 20.1

      At one level this could be seen as a way of helping relieve the directly offending partner of the total burden of the debt when the predominantly male partner had the benefits of the relationship without needing to provide any of the support.

      Put that way it could be seen as reasonable.

      Put that way it could be seen as a desire to help the offender.

      Of course it’s not. If Winz was really concerned about the debt burden they would allow the judges in their court cases to consider restitution. It was evident in the 80’s that DSW as it was then was finding that judges were not ordering restitution or if they did only to a small proportion of the debt owed.

      We noticed a trend then not to request restitution and that has no doubt continued. As a result the offender gets sentenced and still has to pay every cent back – unlike many many white collar and other fraudsters.

      It’s another way in which beneficiary criminals are generally treated differently to other criminals.
      If there was truly some desire to help the offender with her debt burden they’d let the courts decide appropriate restitution in line with any other sentencing.

      Put as above it looks like a good intention in reality it’s a road to further hell.

      In many of these situations there’s a strong power imbalance between the male and the female receiving the DPB – I can’t see in any way how this helps women in those situations one little bit. I can see how it puts them at more risk than they are now.

      There’s no protection here for the most vulnerable.

      • Descendant Of Sssmith 20.1.1

        And I wonder how much National have thought this through in terms of cost:

        Two prosecutions, two imprisonments, children in CYFS care, two appeals.

        The partner charge will require different evidence.. Certainly when I was in banking you saw couples applying for loans with one person working and the second getting DPB but based on detail in court cases in the paper usually there are no assets to speak of I’m thinking for many the evidence will be minimal or witness based.

        It does seem that the cost of prosecuting will be higher than any gain in collecting money back and the disruption to families even greater.

        I don’t condone any fraud whether benefit or otherwise but this law simply seems poorly thought out, costly and just simply bad law.

        Just waiting now for Labour Greens Mana Maori Party to say they will repeal it.

  20. xtasy 21

    What is the reason and justification for this proposed law change, in view of section 66 of the Crimes Act 1961 already providing for the prosecution of known participation in such alleged “fraud” by a beneficiary???

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/DLM328506.html?search=sw_096be8ed809832a0_parties_25&p=1&sr=10

    The only reason I can detect is, that the law as it is does not necessarily give MSD the means to get a “partner” as a “party” to committing benefit fraud, to get that “co-offender” pay for damages.

    It seems they simply want to have access to the partner’s funds, income and so forth, to recover the money that was lost due to “alleged” fraud. There is no other reason and justification for this measure, that I can find. And as stated above, it is discriminatory and thus illegal, what they propose.

    • aerobubble 21.1

      I’m guess because its not clear. But seems that some girlfriends with kids where harassed to lie to WINZ to get more benefit, then when caught they declared they were in an abusive relationship and so lawyers could no longer argue the girlfriend was in a relationship. And in order to catch those being abused by their boyfriends WINZ also want the ability to closer scrutinize the lives of those who are have been manipulated into lying to them.

      Now the question is will they abuse their power, and will individuals (as in any part of society) in WINZ who abuse their power be open to over sight. What checks and balances, what fairness is there in comparable crimes like white collar fraud who do not lose as much as a benefit fraudster.

      Remember also not everyone on a benefit is eligible for legal aid (as its asset tested).

  21. Murray Olsen 22

    From my uninformed layperson’s viewpoint, this law has to be in violation of the Bill of Rights. It also will have the effect of making it harder for beneficiaries to start or form relationships, so that the family values so beloved of NAct will be denied them. It really rams home just how little humanity exists in government and especially in people like Paula Bennett. She might not have been able to form a stable relationship until she had a ministerial salary – I really don’t know. But why is she so keen to deny the opportunity to everyone else. It’s a bill to promote quickies in the back of a Corolla and to take any love or humanity out of beneficiaries’ lives. A South African friend suggested to me that it’s the sort of law she would have expected back in their bad old days, when they had people who tested sheets for bodily discharges in an attempt to snuff out interracial relationships. NAct are sick, sick people.

  22. Mary 23

    The whole thing’s obviously fraught with difficulties, not the least being the criminalisation of people who have no idea of the alleged offending, on top of, of course, the fact that so many people are wrongly convicted because of MSD telling people that if they plead guilty they “won’t go to jail” – completely ignoring the requirement to apply the proper test for what constitutes a relationship in the nature of marriage.

    One thing, though, that many people haven’t mentioned is that as soon as a spouse (or alleged spouse) gets done for fraud they didn’t know about what do you think will happen? I’d say it’d be curtains for any chance a relationship may have had therefore removing all doubt over whether the person is entitled to a benefit. These changes are guaranteed to make more people entitled to a social welfare benefit.

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • EV road user charges bill passes
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed the passing of legislation to move light electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) into the road user charges system from 1 April.  “It was always intended that EVs and PHEVs would be exempt from road user charges until they reached two ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Bill targets illegal, unregulated fishing in international waters
    New Zealand is strengthening its ability to combat illegal fishing outside its domestic waters and beef up regulation for its own commercial fishers in international waters through a Bill which had its first reading in Parliament today. The Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill 2023 sets out stronger ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 day ago
  • Reserve Bank appointments
    Economists Carl Hansen and Professor Prasanna Gai have been appointed to the Reserve Bank Monetary Policy Committee, Finance Minister Nicola Willis announced today. The Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) is the independent decision-making body that sets the Official Cash Rate which determines interest rates.  Carl Hansen, the executive director of Capital ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Stronger protections for apartment owners
    Apartment owners and buyers will soon have greater protections as further changes to the law on unit titles come into effect, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “The Unit Titles (Strengthening Body Corporate Governance and Other Matters) Amendment Act had already introduced some changes in December 2022 and May 2023, and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Travel focused on traditional partners and Middle East
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Egypt and Europe from this weekend.    “This travel will focus on a range of New Zealand’s traditional diplomatic and security partnerships while enabling broad engagement on the urgent situation in Gaza,” Mr Peters says.   Mr Peters will attend the NATO Foreign ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Keep safe on our roads this Easter
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown is encouraging all road users to stay safe, plan their journeys ahead of time, and be patient with other drivers while travelling around this Easter long weekend. “Road safety is a responsibility we all share, and with increased traffic on our roads expected this Easter we ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Cost of living support for over 1.4 million Kiwis
    About 1.4 million New Zealanders will receive cost of living relief through increased government assistance from April 1 909,000 pensioners get a boost to Superannuation, including 5000 veterans 371,000 working-age beneficiaries will get higher payments 45,000 students will see an increase in their allowance Over a quarter of New Zealanders ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Tenancy reviews for social housing restart
    Ensuring social housing is being provided to those with the greatest needs is front of mind as the Government restarts social housing tenancy reviews, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. “Our relentless focus on building a strong economy is to ensure we can deliver better public services such as social ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary plan halted
    The Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary will not go ahead, with Cabinet deciding to stop work on the proposed reserve and remove the Bill that would have established it from Parliament’s order paper. “The Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary Bill would have created a 620,000 sq km economic no-go zone,” Oceans and Fisheries Minister ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Cutting all that dam red tape
    Dam safety regulations are being amended so that smaller dams won’t be subject to excessive compliance costs, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on reducing costs and removing unnecessary red tape so we can get the economy back on track.  “Dam safety regulations ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Drought support extended to parts of North Island
    The coalition Government is expanding the medium-scale adverse event classification to parts of the North Island as dry weather conditions persist, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced today. “I have made the decision to expand the medium-scale adverse event classification already in place for parts of the South Island to also cover the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 days ago
  • Passage of major tax bill welcomed
    The passing of legislation giving effect to coalition Government tax commitments has been welcomed by Finance Minister Nicola Willis.  “The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill will help place New Zealand on a more secure economic footing, improve outcomes for New Zealanders, and make our tax system ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Lifting economy through science, tertiary sectors
    Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins and Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds today announced plans to transform our science and university sectors to boost the economy. Two advisory groups, chaired by Professor Sir Peter Gluckman, will advise the Government on how these sectors can play a greater ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government announces Budget priorities
    The Budget will deliver urgently-needed tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders while putting the government’s finances back on a sustainable track, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says.  The Finance Minister made the comments at the release of the Budget Policy Statement setting out the Government’s Budget objectives. “The coalition Government intends ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Government to consider accommodation solution
    The coalition Government will look at options to address a zoning issue that limits how much financial support Queenstown residents can get for accommodation. Cabinet has agreed on a response to the Petitions Committee, which had recommended the geographic information MSD uses to determine how much accommodation supplement can be ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Government approves extension to Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care
    Cabinet has agreed to a short extension to the final reporting timeframe for the Royal Commission into Abuse in Care from 28 March 2024 to 26 June 2024, Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says.                                         “The Royal Commission wrote to me on 16 February 2024, requesting that I consider an ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • $18m boost for Kiwis travelling to health treatment
    The coalition Government is delivering an $18 million boost to New Zealanders needing to travel for specialist health treatment, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says.   “These changes are long overdue – the National Travel Assistance (NTA) scheme saw its last increase to mileage and accommodation rates way back in 2009.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • PM’s Prizes for Space to showcase sector’s talent
    The Government is recognising the innovative and rising talent in New Zealand’s growing space sector, with the Prime Minister and Space Minister Judith Collins announcing the new Prime Minister’s Prizes for Space today. “New Zealand has a growing reputation as a high-value partner for space missions and research. I am ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Concerns conveyed to China over cyber activity
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters has confirmed New Zealand’s concerns about cyber activity have been conveyed directly to the Chinese Government.     “The Prime Minister and Minister Collins have expressed concerns today about malicious cyber activity, attributed to groups sponsored by the Chinese Government, targeting democratic institutions in both New ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Independent Reviewers appointed for School Property Inquiry
    Independent Reviewers appointed for School Property Inquiry Education Minister Erica Stanford today announced the appointment of three independent reviewers to lead the Ministerial Inquiry into the Ministry of Education’s School Property Function.  The Inquiry will be led by former Minister of Foreign Affairs Murray McCully. “There is a clear need ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Brynderwyns open for Easter
    State Highway 1 across the Brynderwyns will be open for Easter weekend, with work currently underway to ensure the resilience of this critical route being paused for Easter Weekend to allow holiday makers to travel north, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Today I visited the Brynderwyn Hills construction site, where ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech to the Infrastructure Funding & Financing Conference
    Introduction Good morning to you all, and thanks for having me bright and early today. I am absolutely delighted to be the Minister for Infrastructure alongside the Minister of Housing and Resource Management Reform. I know the Prime Minister sees the three roles as closely connected and he wants me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Parliamentary network breached by the PRC
    New Zealand stands with the United Kingdom in its condemnation of People’s Republic of China (PRC) state-backed malicious cyber activity impacting its Electoral Commission and targeting Members of the UK Parliament. “The use of cyber-enabled espionage operations to interfere with democratic institutions and processes anywhere is unacceptable,” Minister Responsible for ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ to provide support for Solomon Islands election
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced New Zealand will provide logistics support for the upcoming Solomon Islands election. “We’re sending a team of New Zealand Defence Force personnel and two NH90 helicopters to provide logistics support for the election on 17 April, at the request ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • NZ-EU FTA gains Royal Assent for 1 May entry to force
    The European Union Free Trade Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill received Royal Assent today, completing the process for New Zealand’s ratification of its free trade agreement with the European Union.    “I am pleased to announce that today, in a small ceremony at the Beehive, New Zealand notified the European Union ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • COVID-19 inquiry attracts 11,000 submissions
    Public consultation on the terms of reference for the Royal Commission into COVID-19 Lessons has concluded, Internal Affairs Minister Hon Brooke van Velden says.  “I have been advised that there were over 11,000 submissions made through the Royal Commission’s online consultation portal.” Expanding the scope of the Royal Commission of ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Families to receive up to $75 a week help with ECE fees
    Hardworking families are set to benefit from a new credit to help them meet their early childcare education (ECE) costs, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. From 1 July, parents and caregivers of young children will be supported to manage the rising cost of living with a partial reimbursement of their ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Unlocking a sustainable, low-emissions future
    A specialised Independent Technical Advisory Group (ITAG) tasked with preparing and publishing independent non-binding advice on the design of a "green" (sustainable finance) taxonomy rulebook is being established, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says.  “Comprising experts and market participants, the ITAG's primary goal is to deliver comprehensive recommendations to the ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Chief of Army thanked for his service
    Defence Minister Judith Collins has thanked the Chief of Army, Major General John Boswell, DSD, for his service as he leaves the Army after 40 years. “I would like to thank Major General Boswell for his contribution to the Army and the wider New Zealand Defence Force, undertaking many different ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Minister to meet Australian counterparts and Manufacturing Industry Leaders
    25 March 2024 Minister to meet Australian counterparts and Manufacturing Industry Leaders Small Business, Manufacturing, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly will travel to Australia for a series of bi-lateral meetings and manufacturing visits. During the visit, Minister Bayly will meet with his Australian counterparts, Senator Tim Ayres, Ed ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • Government commits nearly $3 million for period products in schools
    Government commits almost $3 million for period products in schools The Coalition Government has committed $2.9 million to ensure intermediate and secondary schools continue providing period products to those who need them, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “This is an issue of dignity and ensuring young women don’t ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Speech – Making it easier to build.
    Good morning, it’s great to be here.   First, I would like to acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of Building Surveyors and thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning.  I would like to use this opportunity to outline the Government’s ambitious plan and what we hope to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 days ago
  • Pacific youth to shine from boost to Polyfest
    Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti has announced the Government’s commitment to the Auckland Secondary Schools Māori and Pacific Islands Cultural Festival, more commonly known as Polyfest. “The Ministry for Pacific Peoples is a longtime supporter of Polyfest and, as it celebrates 49 years in 2024, I’m proud to ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • 2024 Ngarimu VC and 28th (Māori) Battalion Memorial Scholarships announced
    ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to Breast Cancer Foundation – Insights Conference
    Before moving onto the substance of today’s address, I want to recognise the very significant and ongoing contribution the Breast Cancer Foundation makes to support the lives of New Zealand women and their families living with breast cancer. I very much enjoy working with you. I also want to recognise ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Kiwi research soars to International Space Station
    New Zealand has notched up a first with the launch of University of Canterbury research to the International Space Station, Science, Innovation and Technology and Space Minister Judith Collins says. The hardware, developed by Dr Sarah Kessans, is designed to operate autonomously in orbit, allowing scientists on Earth to study ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Speech to the New Zealand Planning Institute
    Introduction Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today and I’m sorry I can’t be there in person. Yesterday I started in Wellington for Breakfast TV, spoke to a property conference in Auckland, and finished the day speaking to local government in Christchurch, so it would have been ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Support for Northland emergency response centre
    The Coalition Government is contributing more than $1 million to support the establishment of an emergency multi-agency coordination centre in Northland. Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell announced the contribution today during a visit of the Whangārei site where the facility will be constructed.  “Northland has faced a number ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Celebrating 20 years of Whakaata Māori
    New Zealanders have enjoyed a broader range of voices telling the story of Aotearoa thanks to the creation of Whakaata Māori 20 years ago, says Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka. The minister spoke at a celebration marking the national indigenous media organisation’s 20th anniversary at their studio in Auckland on ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago
  • Some commercial fishery catch limits increased
    Commercial catch limits for some fisheries have been increased following a review showing stocks are healthy and abundant, Ocean and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The changes, along with some other catch limit changes and management settings, begin coming into effect from 1 April 2024. "Regular biannual reviews of fish ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

Page generated in The Standard by Wordpress at 2024-03-29T15:07:29+00:00