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	<title>Comments on: Farrar fudging ACE figures</title>
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	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: Puddleglum</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194747</link>
		<dc:creator>Puddleglum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194747</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s a pretty deep irony in economists arguing that private benefits should be teased apart from public benefits given that modern (market) economics is based on the supposedly profound insight that pursuit of self-interest actually, and inevitably, produces positive increments in the &#039;common good&#039; (Adam Smith, et al.).

In fact, Adam Smith was fully aware that the notion of a fully, privatised individual is a nonsense He subscribed to the social theory that humans are fundamentally &#039;sympathetic&#039; creatures - in the technical, philosophical sense of the word. In that sense, and to bowdlerise Thatcher, there actually is no such thing as the (private) individual - there are only various forms of social interaction.

The political and policy question is not that of how much (or how little) individuals &#039;privately&#039; benefit from government policies but, rather, whether public benefits are optimised through the actions of governments and, more significantly, what are, in fact, the public benefits that matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a pretty deep irony in economists arguing that private benefits should be teased apart from public benefits given that modern (market) economics is based on the supposedly profound insight that pursuit of self-interest actually, and inevitably, produces positive increments in the &#8216;common good&#8217; (Adam Smith, et al.).</p>
<p>In fact, Adam Smith was fully aware that the notion of a fully, privatised individual is a nonsense He subscribed to the social theory that humans are fundamentally &#8216;sympathetic&#8217; creatures &#8211; in the technical, philosophical sense of the word. In that sense, and to bowdlerise Thatcher, there actually is no such thing as the (private) individual &#8211; there are only various forms of social interaction.</p>
<p>The political and policy question is not that of how much (or how little) individuals &#8216;privately&#8217; benefit from government policies but, rather, whether public benefits are optimised through the actions of governments and, more significantly, what are, in fact, the public benefits that matter.</p>
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		<title>By: kaplan</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194302</link>
		<dc:creator>kaplan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 04:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194302</guid>
		<description>You can&#039;t extrapolate the economic benefits of ACE to society from your opinion of it&#039;s economic benefits  to you as an individual.
That&#039;s just a step away from statements like. &quot;I&#039;ve only ever been to my doctor for a cough and a sore throat and there was no real benefit in doing so.  I&#039;d gladly have paid the full cost of my visit myself so the government should stop subsidising GP&#039;s&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can&#8217;t extrapolate the economic benefits of ACE to society from your opinion of it&#8217;s economic benefits  to you as an individual.<br />
That&#8217;s just a step away from statements like. &#8220;I&#8217;ve only ever been to my doctor for a cough and a sore throat and there was no real benefit in doing so.  I&#8217;d gladly have paid the full cost of my visit myself so the government should stop subsidising GP&#8217;s&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Williams</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194250</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:50:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194250</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m concerned with the government cuts to ACE, they disrupt a pathway for a cohort students that is not well served elsewhere. That said, I&#039;m in the education business and, a while back, I managed a project to estimate the economic benefits of vocational education and training. The clear advice, at the time, from key stakeholders (funders specifically) was that to be credible and to help frame funding decisions, the analysis had to take into account second round effects i.e. be based on econometric modelling. We did this, commissioned it from an independent body in fact, which resulted in a much more modest but defensible figure. My criticism of the PWC report is that they didn&#039;t think about the audience which is as much policy and funding bodies as it is the public.

Ultimately, however as others have commented, this is a simple matter of priorities and National have clearly indicated there&#039;s are elsewhere and they&#039;ll be judged accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m concerned with the government cuts to ACE, they disrupt a pathway for a cohort students that is not well served elsewhere. That said, I&#8217;m in the education business and, a while back, I managed a project to estimate the economic benefits of vocational education and training. The clear advice, at the time, from key stakeholders (funders specifically) was that to be credible and to help frame funding decisions, the analysis had to take into account second round effects i.e. be based on econometric modelling. We did this, commissioned it from an independent body in fact, which resulted in a much more modest but defensible figure. My criticism of the PWC report is that they didn&#8217;t think about the audience which is as much policy and funding bodies as it is the public.</p>
<p>Ultimately, however as others have commented, this is a simple matter of priorities and National have clearly indicated there&#8217;s are elsewhere and they&#8217;ll be judged accordingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Gosman</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194222</link>
		<dc:creator>Gosman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194222</guid>
		<description>If you wish to grasp at that rather tenuous straw then be my guest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you wish to grasp at that rather tenuous straw then be my guest.</p>
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		<title>By: richgraham</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194206</link>
		<dc:creator>richgraham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194206</guid>
		<description>I am doing an ACE-funded course in Italian at the local polytech, costs $40 per term. There is no economic benefit in it. I&#039;m quite happy to pay for the course&#039;s real cost, but ACE is subsidising it and all I pay is $40. Neat eh ? And you thought ACE funding had all gone ?
The report that assigned huge economic benefits to night classes (&quot; $54  $72 for each dollar of funding.&quot;)is obviously seriously in error, as Mr Kiwiblog et al pointed out. Your inability to accept the obvious does no credit to you at all Mr.Rob. Come on Labour wake up !</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am doing an ACE-funded course in Italian at the local polytech, costs $40 per term. There is no economic benefit in it. I&#8217;m quite happy to pay for the course&#8217;s real cost, but ACE is subsidising it and all I pay is $40. Neat eh ? And you thought ACE funding had all gone ?<br />
The report that assigned huge economic benefits to night classes (&#8221; $54  $72 for each dollar of funding.&#8221;)is obviously seriously in error, as Mr Kiwiblog et al pointed out. Your inability to accept the obvious does no credit to you at all Mr.Rob. Come on Labour wake up !</p>
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		<title>By: Clarke</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194205</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194205</guid>
		<description>Given that only 28% of respondents in the Roy Morgan poll think that their economic prospects will improve in the coming year, I would suggest that the sense of poor economic management by this government is definitely on the increase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Given that only 28% of respondents in the Roy Morgan poll think that their economic prospects will improve in the coming year, I would suggest that the sense of poor economic management by this government is definitely on the increase.</p>
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		<title>By: Gosman</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194198</link>
		<dc:creator>Gosman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194198</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m just replying to an unintelligent post with one of my own.

The point is the Opposition has yet to get any sort of traction on these topics. If the Government was such easy meat as so laughably claimed by the sprout why hasn&#039;t this happened?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just replying to an unintelligent post with one of my own.</p>
<p>The point is the Opposition has yet to get any sort of traction on these topics. If the Government was such easy meat as so laughably claimed by the sprout why hasn&#8217;t this happened?</p>
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		<title>By: r0b</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194196</link>
		<dc:creator>r0b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194196</guid>
		<description>Ahh, polls, the last refuge of the incompetent...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahh, polls, the last refuge of the incompetent&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Gosman</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194192</link>
		<dc:creator>Gosman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194192</guid>
		<description>&quot;Every one of them, Reagan, Bush, Shipley, Bolger, Thatcher, you name it, have increased the size of government. &quot;

What was the size of the Government sector as a percentage of GDP prior to 1990 and what was it in 1999?

I think you will find that not many economists would agree with you that it was higher at the end of that decade than at the beginning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Every one of them, Reagan, Bush, Shipley, Bolger, Thatcher, you name it, have increased the size of government. &#8221;</p>
<p>What was the size of the Government sector as a percentage of GDP prior to 1990 and what was it in 1999?</p>
<p>I think you will find that not many economists would agree with you that it was higher at the end of that decade than at the beginning.</p>
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		<title>By: Gosman</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194185</link>
		<dc:creator>Gosman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194185</guid>
		<description>So where is the evidence support the view that the people taking up these courses are the ones who the education system failed?

 I suppose you have some facts and figures to back that claim up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where is the evidence support the view that the people taking up these courses are the ones who the education system failed?</p>
<p> I suppose you have some facts and figures to back that claim up?</p>
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		<title>By: Gosman</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194183</link>
		<dc:creator>Gosman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:33:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194183</guid>
		<description>And hence why they are so far behind in the opinion polls.........oh wait a minute.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And hence why they are so far behind in the opinion polls&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;oh wait a minute.</p>
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		<title>By: Clarke</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194163</link>
		<dc:creator>Clarke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194163</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;When the Conservative party gets back into power in the UK they too will be cutting Government spending. They will be forced to do so because of the huge deficit built up under Labour.

Why do you guy&#039;s have trouble understanding this?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And herein lies the difficulty.

The essential disconnect between Left and Right comes because the Right choose to believe that budget deficits are a problem - thanks largely to the work of the Chicago School economists - despite all the real-world evidence that government deficits are a normal and necessary part of a modern economy.

If deficits were an actual - rather than theoretical - problem, then the United States would have gone broke more than 100 years ago. The evidence that this has not occurred tends to rather undermine the economists on the Right who think that deficits are somehow bad, but that has not stopped this particularly dangerous meme that &quot;deficits must be repaid at all costs!&quot; from spreading.

So the &lt;a href=&quot;http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=8117&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;simple version&lt;/a&gt;:

- Governments are not households. The economics that drive households bear no resemblance to the economics of countries, and the analogies that the Right draws between the two are worse than useless.
- Where a government has a fiat non-convertible currency with a floating exchange rate (like New Zealand), running a deficit is a normal part of effective monetary policy.
- Governments are not primarily funded by taxation or by selling bonds to the private sector; rather, their spending is primarily based on how much fiat currency is required to operate the government sector, which is then created by the central bank.
- Where the government decides not to run a deficit (i.e. a surplus) due to capture by delusional economists, a recession inevitably results. Likewise, tightening monetary policy in a recession will always make it worse.

So your contention that a government is forced to cut back any form of expenditure due to the deficit is completely incorrect. The government of the day may well decide to cut expenditure for political reasons, but this should never be confused with economic necessity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>When the Conservative party gets back into power in the UK they too will be cutting Government spending. They will be forced to do so because of the huge deficit built up under Labour.</p>
<p>Why do you guy&#8217;s have trouble understanding this?</p></blockquote>
<p>And herein lies the difficulty.</p>
<p>The essential disconnect between Left and Right comes because the Right choose to believe that budget deficits are a problem &#8211; thanks largely to the work of the Chicago School economists &#8211; despite all the real-world evidence that government deficits are a normal and necessary part of a modern economy.</p>
<p>If deficits were an actual &#8211; rather than theoretical &#8211; problem, then the United States would have gone broke more than 100 years ago. The evidence that this has not occurred tends to rather undermine the economists on the Right who think that deficits are somehow bad, but that has not stopped this particularly dangerous meme that &#8220;deficits must be repaid at all costs!&#8221; from spreading.</p>
<p>So the <a href="http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=8117" rel="nofollow">simple version</a>:</p>
<p>- Governments are not households. The economics that drive households bear no resemblance to the economics of countries, and the analogies that the Right draws between the two are worse than useless.<br />
- Where a government has a fiat non-convertible currency with a floating exchange rate (like New Zealand), running a deficit is a normal part of effective monetary policy.<br />
- Governments are not primarily funded by taxation or by selling bonds to the private sector; rather, their spending is primarily based on how much fiat currency is required to operate the government sector, which is then created by the central bank.<br />
- Where the government decides not to run a deficit (i.e. a surplus) due to capture by delusional economists, a recession inevitably results. Likewise, tightening monetary policy in a recession will always make it worse.</p>
<p>So your contention that a government is forced to cut back any form of expenditure due to the deficit is completely incorrect. The government of the day may well decide to cut expenditure for political reasons, but this should never be confused with economic necessity.</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194159</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194159</guid>
		<description>It is clear that you haven&#039;t bothered to look at the program.

It is designed to second chance people for whom the education system FAILED miserably. 

You have people without limited money or assets getting into education on what is almost a casual basis. There are few barriers to entry. There is no expectation that it will lead to a career. It is done at their local school. There isn&#039;t a bureaucracy. You don&#039;t have to do much more than turn up and enjoy learning new things. It is done as part of your local community, which means that you&#039;ll have people around you with similar background and learning difficulties - so it isn&#039;t competitive.

The idea is to get people to understand that learning is fun. Then they&#039;ll teach that to their kids and are more likely to go on to do the types of vocational training that you&#039;re thinking about. 

It has been quietly working away as second chance education for over a hundred years delivering vast benefits both to people, their kids, and generally to society. Then you have a moron minister coming along and destroying it because she clearly didn&#039;t understand what it was for... Mind you it isn&#039;t surprising - she doesn&#039;t appear to understand much.

Now as for you....

Personally I&#039;d suggest that you don&#039;t have the faintest idea about what the intent of the program was. In fact I&#039;d say that you are a MISERABLE FAILURE because you clearly haven&#039;t bothered to examine it yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is clear that you haven&#8217;t bothered to look at the program.</p>
<p>It is designed to second chance people for whom the education system FAILED miserably. </p>
<p>You have people without limited money or assets getting into education on what is almost a casual basis. There are few barriers to entry. There is no expectation that it will lead to a career. It is done at their local school. There isn&#8217;t a bureaucracy. You don&#8217;t have to do much more than turn up and enjoy learning new things. It is done as part of your local community, which means that you&#8217;ll have people around you with similar background and learning difficulties &#8211; so it isn&#8217;t competitive.</p>
<p>The idea is to get people to understand that learning is fun. Then they&#8217;ll teach that to their kids and are more likely to go on to do the types of vocational training that you&#8217;re thinking about. </p>
<p>It has been quietly working away as second chance education for over a hundred years delivering vast benefits both to people, their kids, and generally to society. Then you have a moron minister coming along and destroying it because she clearly didn&#8217;t understand what it was for&#8230; Mind you it isn&#8217;t surprising &#8211; she doesn&#8217;t appear to understand much.</p>
<p>Now as for you&#8230;.</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d suggest that you don&#8217;t have the faintest idea about what the intent of the program was. In fact I&#8217;d say that you are a MISERABLE FAILURE because you clearly haven&#8217;t bothered to examine it yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Draco T Bastard</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194151</link>
		<dc:creator>Draco T Bastard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194151</guid>
		<description>Because such &lt;i&gt;private&lt;/i&gt; benefits also benefit the whole of society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because such <i>private</i> benefits also benefit the whole of society.</p>
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		<title>By: the sprout</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/farrar-fudging-ace-figures/comment-page-1/#comment-194144</link>
		<dc:creator>the sprout</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=31548#comment-194144</guid>
		<description>the political management skills of this administration are laughable.
should give a lot of heart to the opposition.
these plonkers are EASY MEAT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the political management skills of this administration are laughable.<br />
should give a lot of heart to the opposition.<br />
these plonkers are EASY MEAT</p>
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