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Gay marriage

Written By: - Date published: 9:17 am, July 28th, 2012 - 181 comments
Categories: gay rights, human rights - Tags: ,

This week Labour MP Louisa Wall’s marriage equality bill was drawn from the ballot, with a first reading reading expected within weeks. According to 3 News the “Gay marriage debate takes off”. I suspect that the Nats are smiling happily to themselves, and hoping for a nasty fight. It would be an excellent distraction from their damning list of incompetence and woes: the moribund economy, the unpopular and bungled asset sales, the record exodus to Australia, their dependence on John “technicality” Banks, and so on.

Wouldn’t it be great if we as a country were mature enough to avoid a demeaning circus, and resolve the issue quickly and without fuss. What possible reason is there to deny a couple marriage? With luck the only dissenting voices will be isolated extremists like Colin Craig:

Conservative Party leader Colin Craig has launched into the same-sex marriage debate with a controversial argument why it’s wrong.

He says same-sex couples who want to marry lack respect for what already exists. He also says it would allow them to adopt, which would be harmful for children.

The Christian party leader is not a Member of Parliament, but waded into the debate on Twitter this morning, saying it wasn’t intelligent to pretend gay relationships were normal.

His series of tweets was followed by a press release which said the minority were busy with their “social engineering” and trying to “meddle with the system”.

Mr Craig told 3 News that people choose to be gay rather than being born that way, many as a result of being abused as children.

Mr Craig is a tool of ignorance, superstition and prejudice. He represents a small minority of New Zealanders, and that’s all that needs to be said about him. In contrast, and true to his usual form, John Key is of no fixed opinion:

The Prime Minister won’t say whether he’ll support a bill allowing same sex marriage beyond its first reading, but says most of his MPs are likely to vote against it. … “Probably my electorate would be opposed to gay marriage. I might just decide to make my own mind up on it.”

Get back to us when you’ve run your focus groups John. With any luck they’ll tell you to do the decent thing, and you’ll throw your political influence behind supporting gay marriage. That way you can be remembered as a PM who got at least one thing right.

181 comments on “Gay marriage”

  1. Tigger 1

    So why the hell did you turn up to all this Big Gay Outs, John? Oh yeah, pandering, lying, giving the appearance of support. Tosser.

    • gobsmacked 1.1

      So why the hell did you turn up to all this Big Gay Outs, John?

      Yeah, that’s going to cause him real trouble, if the bill hasn’t been passed by the end of the year. There’s no way he’ll do the happy photo-op if he’s still on the fence (or even opposed).

      So, another reason for National to help this one along, get it out of the way ASAP.

    • mike e 1.2

      Shonkey turned up because he is a buysexual
      Vote buying
      The cat walk
      The RWC handshake
      Dogwhistle or is that cat

  2. Lanthanide 2

    Hey Mr Craig, I didn’t “choose” to be gay and I wasn’t abused as a child.

    His stance doesn’t make sense anyway: many people “choose” to be gay because they suffered abuse as a child?

    • felix 2.1

      Of course it doesn’t make sense. Look at the people he’s trying to “make sense” to.

    • Colin Craig said something verrry interesting about “choosing to be gay”, that makes me wonder if the CP leader has something he wants to “get of his chest”,

      ” He was so sure that homosexuality was a choice, he bet his own sexuality on it.

      “Do you think you could choose to be gay if that is the case?,” he was asked.

      “Sure. Sure I could,” he responded.

      “You could choose to be gay?,” he was asked again.

      “Yea, if I wanted to,’ he replied. “

      See: http://www.3news.co.nz/Colin-Craig-Gay-parents-not-good-role-models/tabid/1607/articleID/262919/Default.aspx

      • Populuxe1 2.2.1

        If he wants to prove that, I will offer myself as a sacrifice – but only under clinical trial conditions and with professional observers present. And then I want to bleach my brain.

        • felix 2.2.1.1

          “only under clinical trial conditions and with professional observers present.”

          Pretty specific, Pop. But that’s ok, we all got a freaky side.

          • Populuxe1 2.2.1.1.1

            This is science, Felix. And if it turns out he can’t “choose” to be gay, we will go on to phase two – which I like to fondly call “Clockwork Orange” time.

      • mike e 2.2.2

        Frank it sounds like he is really struggling to come out of the closet

  3. prism 3

    Gay married couples can only make the world a better place and strengthen society. Marriage says commitment, it says bonding between people, it says support and affection, and spells out legal responsibilities and sharing. Pity that The Dragon Tattoo writer and his partner didn’t marry. She in what I thought would be a modern Scandinavian country has no standing when it comes to his estate. This has happened to so many living togethers, pushed out by family and not even involved in their loved one’s funeral.

    And marriage is respected, more than a civil union. There was a golf tournament for married couples in Nelson I think, and a great upset when couples who weren’t married just living together were banned. Some people like the celebration of a marriage ceremony so much they go through it a number of times with different partners, sometimes renewing vows with the same partner. Devotion to each other isn’t only found between men and women – men and men, women and women can feel this bond too, marriage gives the real status to stable relationships that they deserve.

    The attitude that marriage is sacred, only between men and women and never shall it be otherwise doesn’t look at the quality of marriages after the ceremonials are over. But once you are married, there are ways to diminish that state such as beating up your wife your children or even your husband. And some women marry serially for the half split of goodies given out in divorce settlements. Is that what they got married for? Are they turning marriage into a business to enrich themselves? Like many modern churches that act as businesses but use the sacred mantle as a wealth making tax avoidance scheme?

  4. BM 4

    Why didn’t Labour push for gay marriage when they were in charge? the only reason I can think of is that they didn’t want to upset all the Catholics who vote Labour.

    • prism 4.1

      BM Irrelevant.

      • BM 4.1.1

        Not really, as the same applies to National.

        There’s quite a large religious block that votes National, are they ready for Gay marriage, I’m not sure.

    • Blue 4.2

      Labour’s Civil Unions bill was a closely fought one, BM. It passed 65 to 55 on a conscience vote.

      If it had been gay marriage Labour was proposing, I would say the bill wouldn’t have passed back then.

      The public mood has changed since 2004, and I think a gay marriage bill would pass now. So many countries around the world are now passing or looking at passing legislation on this.

      It should be very interesting to see how the vote goes this time. Labour, the Progressives and the Greens largely got Civil Unions over the line, along with half of Act and a few conscience votes in favour from parties that mostly opposed it.

      • Pete George 4.2.1

        Blue’s right, Labour got through what was deemed possible at the time.

        The public has changed a lot since then and seems ready for full equal marriage rights rather than a stepping stone second class status. Civil unions being in place already makes the change to equal status much easier.

    • Murray Olsen 4.3

      Because Labour were cowards. It’s a long time since they’ve done anything that took real political courage.

      • Populuxe1 4.3.1

        Um, no – it was because Labour realised you can’t change the world overnight and something like this requires baby steps.

  5. lostinsuburbia 5

    Colin Craig can go hang out with Louis Crimp, I’m sure they are singing from the same hymn sheet on this issue.

    I didn’t choose to be gay, in fact life would be a lot easier if I wasnt. But I am and is it so wrong to expect the same level of rights under the law? We’re not asking for special treatment, we just want to be treated the same as everyone else.

    • marsman 5.1

      I well remember Fran Wilde’s Homosexual Law Reform Bill and the nasty, ignorant, mainly male homophobes who travelled the country preaching ‘They will be into our twelve year olds’ which was a watershed for us gay men and lesbians who had pushed our way into their venues because we all stood up and ROARED.

      Personally I don’t give a rat’s arse whether people of whatever mix get married. It’s never been my desire to be married but have had a number of loving and satisfying long ‘gay relationships’.
      However if the likes of Colin Craig get on their hindlegs and do a tour of hate-mongering homophobia I will go out and confront them and ROAR, and I’m positive I will not be the only one.

  6. tracey 6

    The stupid thing is straight people dont ” respect the sanctity of marriage” given the high divorce and de facto rates. Times have changed. The bible has said all kinds of things that are no longer acceptable.

    • lostinsuburbia 6.1

      I think this video from the West Wing sums it up

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mfl01HnUrU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    • Dr Terry 6.2

      The Bible has always said things that are non-acceptable. The Bible’s main theme is Love, so for heaven’s sake allow people who love, to marry, and lay aside prejudices that lack love.

    • weka 6.3

      It’s not just about the bible though, it’s also homophobia.

      • mike e 6.3.1

        Homophobia and racism are mental disorders
        Insecurity about ones own race or sexuality.
        Low educational achievement and self esteem are common amongst this grouping .
        When someone is worried about what other people do .
        Is usually a sign they are a latent homosexual reading the Kinsey report would be a good start for these people.
        Fundamentalist autocratic types who promote homophobia , research has shown this group are twice as likely to be paedophiles a claim they often make about Gay people who research has shown are no more likely than the average person.
        The same sort of disgusting rhetoric was used by the KKK to say that all black men were rapists.
        Nothing has changed in redneck country.
        Graeme Capill was the last politician to promote this redneck BS!

  7. KJT 7

    Anyone who still thinks that Politicians are a better protector of minority rights, than democracy, please take note.

  8. bad12 8

    Gay marriage is one hell of a big yawn of a subject, my rule of thumb is that what adults choose to get up to in their private lives is their bizz SO LONG AS it aint hurting anyone,

    Here in lies my question tho,is gay marriage as such being used as the back door to allow same sex couples the right of adoption,

    On a personal level i have no real quantifiable objection to such adoption being legal, BUT, i aint ever likely in my advanced state to be the subject in the middle of a same sex adoption, and,while i have seen no evidence of harm caused to such children involved in such adoptions some thought needs be expended in that area on their behalf…

    • Tigger 8.1

      Actually this is a yawner too. Good parents are good parents, sexuality does not matter. This will be used as a wolf whistle against gay marriage. Think of the children! Funnily enough, those Nats who do this are also slashing welfare and voting down paid parental leave.

      • bad12 8.1.1

        That is hardly an answer, i for one can see a problem for kids adopted into such a relationship at the point where such children come to a realization that their parental configuration is not the ‘norm’ of their peers,

        As i have already said, same sex couples being married has to be one of the biggest YAWNIES issues of our time, the fact that we are having this discussion at all shows just how slow and primitive the race,and, the political process is,

        As a boring old ‘hetero’ i have no interest in the configurations within the institution of marriage and as an individual with a ‘free’ mind my usual thoughts on the issue of marriage is that most of it’s advocates belong in one,an institution that is,

        However, IF the legalization of same sex marriage is also the allowance of those in same sex marriages the ‘right’ of adoption then i feel that changes the discussion entirely…

    • prism 8.2

      bad12 8
      One thing at a time. Let’s look at gay marriage as a single entity and anything else be left to later. It will be on its own in reality a small step for the world and one big step for mankind and womankind.

    • weka 8.3

      I would have thought it was a given that once gay marriage is legal, then adoption by married gay couples would follow. AFAIK, single gay people can already adopt (don’t know how easy it is). Not sure what legislation prevents gay couples from adopting now.
       
      The idea that kids would be damaged by being raised by gay parents if pretty ridiculous. Unless you are also worried about all those gay kids being raised by straight parents, because let’s face it, this is what it comes down to – that the sexuality of the parent will somehow taint the child and oh how terrible to have more gay kids in the world.

  9. kiwi_prometheus 9

    lostinsuburbia -> “I think this video from the West Wing sums it up”

    A botoxed, pancake make up, yankee celeb actor, from the TV sitcom wasteland, reading a teleprompter scripted pro gay marriage tirade?

    Sums it up.

    • lostinsuburbia 9.1

      No sums out that the bible is a book written in ancient times that is full of ridiculous rulings. Sure there are some good themes in it about respecting other people etc but it must be placed in context as a book written by ancient people who were no where as advanced as our society (their belief in a creation myth, the flooding of the entire world, and the turning of a woman into a pillar of salt)

      • Populuxe1 9.1.1

        Actually there really isn’t much on homosexuality in the Bible. The sin of Sodom was lack of hospitality according to Ezekiel 16:49, and these days I doubt we’d condone handing over one’s daughters to be raped instead. Leviticus 18 and 20 are hard to take seriously as Leviticus also advocates things like putting to death people who wear mixed fibres and cut their hair, and in any case looking at the original it seems pretty clear the reference was to the sacred male prostitutes of the Canaanite goddess Shapash who occupied parts of the temple. The other references are Paul, but he hates all sex and women particularly, advocating for total celibacy for everyone.
        Jesus said be nice to other people and pay your taxes. He never said anything about homosexuality – and he was very fond of the beardless apostle John. Also there is David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi, but you never hear much about that when the Fundies get going.

  10. kiwi_prometheus 10

    Marriage is between a man and a women. Only they can procreate. That deserves special status.

    • bad12 10.1

      Laugh, definitely, my modernist hetero view is that ‘they’ need an Institution…

      • kiwi_prometheus 10.1.1

        No they already have one, marriage. Why don’t the pro ‘gay marriage’ advocates get their own one instead of trying to take marriage?

        • Pete George 10.1.1.1

          No one is trying to “take marriage”.

          Those who believe that marriage has religious connections won’t be affected.
          Those who believe that marriage should involve procreating won’t be affected.
          Those who get married for love and partnership won’t be affected.
          Those who are in arranged marriages won’t be affected.
          Those who arev in mariages of convenience won’t be affected.
          Those who married for money won’t be affected.
          Those who can get married for many other reasons won’t be affected.

          All it does is make marriage an equal option for some people that are currently excluded.

          • kiwi_prometheus 10.1.1.1.1

            Excluded because they don’t qualify.

            It’s between a man and a woman. Only they procreate, it is central to the continuation of the human species.

            Change that definition and it is no longer marriage.

            So you are ‘taking’ marriage and turning it into something else.

            • Pascal's bookie 10.1.1.1.1.1

              Point me to where it talks about procreation in the Marriage Act.

            • weka 10.1.1.1.1.2

              Lesbian women can still procreate. And if you say they need a man, then what about a couple where he is infertile, and they need donor sperm? Should they be denied marriage too, because they can’t procreate on their own?

            • Clashman 10.1.1.1.1.3

              What about married people who have chosen not to procreate? I know of several who can have children but have chosen not to. Should they have there marriage annulled?

            • lostinsuburbia 10.1.1.1.1.4

              Guess we better start genetic testing of all couples to make sure they are compatible.

            • mike e 10.1.1.1.1.5

              kp the only thing you can procreate is bigotry!
              So all the hetro couples who have children who neglect and abuse their children and others ie Capill and yourself included the spiritually deluded.
              Gay couples have lower rate of child abuse than you and your cohorts its time you started
              protesting against your own kind then people may have some respect for you
              you are obviously a religious nutter.
              Religion which has an even murkier history on child abuse of all kinds yuk! your just a bunch of zealous bigoted hypocrites clean up your own morals before you even try with others that are superior to yours.

        • bad12 10.1.1.2

          ahh, my point was far too oblique for you, try an institution where they read your mind…

    • The special status of successful procreation is having children. Marriage isn’t necessaary for that. Many people get married knowing they will never have children in the marriage. Including me.

      Those that want an extra special status can create their own.

      • kiwi_prometheus 10.2.1

        So what if a few heterosexual married don’t have kids, that doesn’t change the principle.

        All you got there is some cold philosophical technicality.

        • Pascal's bookie 10.2.1.1

          Your principle is that gays cannot marry, because they cannot procreate.

          Therfore any couple that cannot procreate cannot marry.

          If you want to amend the Marriage Act so that infertile couples cannot marry, have at it. But at the moment people who cannot procreate can in fact marry.

        • QoT 10.2.1.2

          k_p, do you realise that transgendered people whose gender has been legally changed can marry someone of the opposite sex? Right now? Even though they may completely lack any biological ability to ever have kids, or at least to have kids with their cissexual partner?

          (I ask because one of my most treasured memories is of Georgina Beyer on Eye to Eye breaking this news to Brian Tamaki. Poor little man, he had no idea the big scary transgender woman had basic human rights.)

    • Draco T Bastard 10.3

      Ah, a fuckwit spouting lies and bigotry.

      Plenty of gay people out there with children.

      • kiwi_prometheus 10.3.1

        Yeah from their.previous marriage to the opposite sex.

        Or a Nigerian gayby bought off the internet. LOL

        Again, marriage is between a man and a woman. Only they can procreate.

        • McFlock 10.3.1.1

          Really?
          That’s in the Marriage Act “man and woman, because only they can procreate”? 
               
           Methinks you’re confusing bible-thumping with secular law. 

          • infused 10.3.1.1.1

            No, as defined: The formal union of a man and a woman, typically recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife.

            You’re actually changing the meaning of marriage.

            • millsy 10.3.1.1.1.1

              didnt know you were a god bother as well infused…

            • McFlock 10.3.1.1.1.2

              Words can’t change meanings, or acquire additional meanings?
                   
              The gay divorcee thought same-sex marriage was terrific

        • millsy 10.3.1.2

          So what about those married couples who choose not to have children?

        • Draco T Bastard 10.3.1.3

          Not always. Gay people are still fertile and may get together with another gay couple to have children. That gives the children four or more loving parents.

          Your ignorance and hate is shining through for all to see.

          BTW:

          Various types of same-sex marriages have existed,[75] ranging from informal, unsanctioned relationships to highly ritualized unions.[76]

          While it is a relatively new practice to grant same-sex couples the same form of legal marital recognition as commonly granted to mixed-sex couples, there is some history of recorded same-sex unions around the world.[77] It is believed that same-sex unions were celebrated in Ancient Greece and Rome,[77] some regions of China, such as Fujian, and at certain times in ancient European history.

          Ancient Greece and Rome – the birthplaces of modern Western culture.

          • kiwi_prometheus 10.3.1.3.1

            These are all outlier examples again. So what.

            We all know that marriage is between a man and woman. It is only that combination that makes procreation possible. That’s what makes marriage so important and special.

            Sure a few couples choose careers over children, or can’t for health reasons etc. A few exceptions don’t change the rule.

            Ditto for adoption, surrogacy or buying a Nigerian gayby on eBay.

            What’s with this obsession with marriage by gays who want in or to get even – “It’s MY right! It’s MY right!”?

            Marriage is between a man and woman. Changing that in anyway means it is not marriage anymore no matter what you want to pretend.

            • felix 10.3.1.3.1.1

              I think you’ll find that procreation happens or not, entirely regardless of marriage.

              The causal link is between fucking and procreation, not marriage and procreation, and the human body simply doesn’t give a flying one what you think about it kp.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                Hi felix! wondered when you were going to rock on up.

                Who was talking about a causal link?

                Flying off at a tangent again, but then manhaters tend to do that.

                • felix

                  “Who was talking about a causal link?”

                  I was, see above.

                  You reckon marriage is for procreation and that without the ability to procreate it can’t be marriage. Yes?

                  Well I don’t think there’s ever been a recorded instance of a marriage resulting in procreation. Ever. And it would be nothing short of a miracle if it ever occurred, which it won’t, because that’s not where babies come from.

                  All the evidence points to fucking, which as I’m sure you know has nothing to do with marriage.

            • Draco T Bastard 10.3.1.3.1.2

              It doesn’t matter if they’re outliers. It’s their right to have the state recognise their relationship as they see it.

              We all know that marriage is between a man and woman.

              The majority of people in this country happen to disagree with you.

              Changing that in anyway means it is not marriage anymore no matter what you want to pretend.

              Wrong. Marriage, just like all cultural rules, is a social construct and the society as a whole and not the bigots within it get to define it however they like.

            • Populuxe1 10.3.1.3.1.3

              People seem to have been managing to have children without getting married since there were first people.

    • gobsmacked 10.4

      Marriage is between a man and a women. Only they can procreate.

      Looking forward to a lot more of this over the coming months. Anthony R0bins is wrong – it’s not a useful distraction for the Nats, it’s a potential wedge. (That’s not the reason I support Louisa’s bill … it’s the right thing to do, period. But the divisions on the Right will be an enjoyable by-product).

      Watch as various talkback Tories successfully alienate “ordinary New Zealanders”, precisely by assuming they are the ordinary (i.e. normal) ones. Oblivious to the realities of 2012, they assume that their narrow world is the real one.

      As this worldview is based on belief, not evidence or logic, it is impervious to reason. No point trying to reason with them, just let them froth and lose. “Give ‘em enough rope”, etc.

      John Key is amoral, but he’s not stupid. He won’t be siding with the bigots – because of polls, not principles. This bill will pass, Colin Craig (and maybe Winston) will benefit, and – much sooner than he wanted – Key will be under pressure to start “ruling in or out” (so will Shearer, and the answer’s obvious, though Labour’s so-called strategists are dumb enough to get it wrong).

      Interesting times.

      • Pascal's bookie 10.4.1

        Agree. There will be all sorts of discussions about ‘bottom lines’ for coalition talks and the conservatives will be in full poo flinging flight dragging up all sorts of questions the rest of the country has already settled an opinion on.

      • bad12 10.4.2

        Makes me wonder tho, the Roy Morgan Poll for the first time ever decides to include the Conservatives in its polling allowing them 3% of electoral support in it’s polling,

        The same week as the Lousia Wall legislation is pulled from the ballot,

        We need to understand one thing here when we look at the ‘politics’ involved and that is with the present numbers, John(the convicted)Banks, the ‘Hairdo’ from Ohariu + the Poodles National are for all money gone in 2014,

        Don’t think for a moment that Slippery,Captain Panic Pants and the rest of the National Party strategists are just going to let themselves be brushed aside by the electorate,

        National need another coalition Party that will deliver them more than 1 seat at the next election, and, should the Conservatives gain the oxygen necessary to have National think they can be assured of that 3% of electoral support National will gift the Conservative Party leader a safe National seat just as they gifted the flake Banks Epsom,

        Therein lies the political danger inherent in Lousia Wall’s legislation, my thoughts,at the risk of getting screeched at is that The Left should ensure that either Labour or the Greens (preferably both),have this legislation as part of their policy leading into 2014 and starve the moral/religious right of any oxygen on the issue by damping down the debate/expectations of the current legislation…

        • gobsmacked 10.4.2.1

          @Bad12

          Of course you’re right, the Nats will need partners, and they may accommodate Craig one way or another.

          But I think that will prove more trouble than it’s worth. There will be all kinds of matters arising … do they pick Craig over Winston, do they destroy ACT, do they lose more swing voters than they pick up on the Right, do they treat voters in Rodney or somewhere else the same way they treat voters in Epsom, does Key have another “cup of tea” with a leader who (by that time) will have called Key the Devil for his vote on Satan’s Sodomy, etc, etc …

          National = Brand Key. For that “nice” brand, hugging a loose unit like Craig is much more dangerous than hugging Banks the reliable, true blue Nat.

          The essential point about religious zealots like Craig (plus Tamaki et al) is that they don’t do grubby compromise. Somebody like Hide or Peters or Banks or Dunne could make all kinds of noise, but ultimately they’re politicians first … they know how far to push their luck. Colin Craig is doing God’s work. And, er … God only knows where that can lead.

          • bad12 10.4.2.1.1

            I find your last paragraph a wee bit naive, the religious right would sell their souls to the devil himself,(nah scratch that insert herself, can’t be being sexist here can i),to (a)get seats in the Parliament,and (b),gain a little lee-way from National to impose some of ‘their’ morals upon us all,

            If the Conservatives cannot gain an electorate on their own National will happily gift them a safe National seat so long as there is a good chance of the Conservatives bringing in 1 or 2 more MPs on top of the gifted seat,

            Roy Morgan didn’t just start polling the Conservative vote for the first time this week for the sheer hell of it, Roy either smelt something in the wind, or, Roy is an actual part of the plan to give the Conservative Party electoral oxygen,

            I will take it as written for now that it was pure coincidence that Roy Morgan started polling the Conservatives at this point in the electoral cycle AND the Clerk of the House just happened to pull Lousia Wall’s bill outta the draft at the same time, i have no evidence that said Clerk has acted with some dishonest deliberation in putting this particular legislation befor the House at this particular time so i will not accuse Him of deliberately having done so…

            • gobsmacked 10.4.2.1.1.1

              Last 2 paras are silly.

              First para … look at the record. Christian Coalition 1996, Destiny/Family, failed launch of Christian party in Clark’s third term (Copeland, Tamaki etc – they fought in public and killed themselves before they were born), Kiwi Party failing dismally, Craig killing Banks in Auckland mayoralty, etc.

              You are thinking pragmatically, but you need to try and see it through eyes of a True Believer. They are against Sin. Compromise is Sin. Why do churches have schisms every five minutes?

              Second para … already covered. The losses outweigh the gains. Gifting a seat means embracing Craig. Another Cup of Tea. The last one almost lost the unloseable election.

              David Farrar is adamantly opposed to Colin Craig. He sees where this would go. Key and Joyce do too. Losses major, gains minor. Basic electoral maths.

              • bad12

                Losses major,gains minor??? if as i suppose National are at this point in the electoral cycle are planning on gifting The Conservatives a seat your failure to see the elephant in the room is both laughable and a sheer tragedy,(no wonder the left spends so much of its time out of Government with thinking like yours),

                ACT if you havn’t noticed, was well f**ked befor the 2011 election and we all knew that even with the insertion of Banks as the ACT candidate who spent the election chanting john key john key john key like a love struck school girl ACT as a Party had not even the chance of a dead cats bounce in 2011…

            • Pascal's bookie 10.4.2.1.1.2

              Agree with gobsmacked.

              (This ended up getting way long, so there’s a tl;dr version down the bottom, feel free to scroll)

              There’s a lot of talk about how the Cons could provide National with it’s partner, and it’s a really superficial way of understanding MMP. It misses.

              What counts is the blocks right? The potential govts. Shuffling votes within those blocks doesn’t affect the outcome as the block is still getting the same number of votes. But what it does affect is the shape of the government that block will form. And that’s what can really shift the middle voters. It’s that secondary effect that is the crucial one, because it determines which block grows.

              So, if the cons start growing where do their votes come from?

              Labour : They’ll get a few, no doubt. But not many I think. Most of the voters that will shift over this will have already shifted. But there will be some.

              Greens None worth mentioning. The Greens and the Cons are just natural enemies, culturally. The urban liberal story about the greens is just true fact.

              Mana Could lose some, but I think not many. And this won’t affect the size of the left block unless Mana gets enough votes for a second MP in any case.

              National This will obviously be where most of the Cons votes have to come from.

              So what happens next, if the Cons are growing?

              National is still at historic highs. Key hoovered up an enormous amount of votes from people that had voted Labour. Why did they vote for Key, but not for Brash?

              What are those people going to think about a right wing block government with the Conservatives having a say?

              There is no sign that those people who voted against Brash would be keen on that. It was the Brethren crap that killed Brash.

              So I think that’s where we see people drifting from National to Labour, and some to the Greens. These will be urban liberals, (and I don’t necessarily think they’ll all be in the cities, read ‘urban’ as stereotype)

              —————
              tl;drSo the basic math comes down to something like:

              Do the Conservatives pick up more votes from the left block, than National loses from liberals?

              The numbers don’t have to be huge for it to be a bad news story for the tory. That’s why they are freaking out.

              Check out the kiwiblog threads on this. It’s all righties fighting righties, and it’s viscious. I think that so far at least, it looks like the right is going to get wedged on this one.

              It’s one of the rareish times when the right thing to do, is also the politically winning thing to do.

              • bad12

                there is a basic flaw in all of the elongated rant that you have put up as a reply to my previous comments,

                The best descriptive that can be applied fairly to this basic flaw in the whole of your comment is that it is utter BULLSHIT,

                it is obvious that you have not even checked the FACTS to ascertain what % of the Party vote The Conservative Party gained in the 2011 election,

                The Conservative Party gained 2.65% of the Party vote in the 2011 election,and as i said to gobsmacked above in my reply to him/her, your failure to see the elephant in the room is both laughable and a tragedy,(if your any gauge of the left’s intellect small wonder said left spends so much time in opposition),

                The fact that you have not even bothered to check the FACTS of what % of the Party vote the Conservatives gained in that 2011 election makes your whole rant as something made up inside your mind and as you have failed to see that 2011 % you will further not know that had the Slippery National Government gifted the Conservative Party Leader a safe National Party seat then the Conservatives would in fact have had 4 seats in the current Parliament,

                To gain the vote of those 4 seats National would have had to lose one of its electorates in the gifting of that seat to the Conservatives but would have gained another 3 support votes in the house as well as the vote of that gifted to the Conservatives,

                Lucky us, National took a gamble on getting a dead cats bounce out of the corpse of the ACT Party and chose not to back the ‘new’ kid on the block the Conservatives,

                I doubt for one moment that National in 2014 will ignore the Conservatives,the opposite will be true, faced with losing the 2014 election National will be falling all over itself to gift the Conservative Party Leader a safe electoral seat…

                • gobsmacked

                  @bad12

                  PB and I have both answered this at length, so there’s not much point going on. You choose to believe that people who take the trouble to comment in great detail, to explain the argument, aren’t even aware of last year’s results. Perhaps you could read it all again, slowly.

                  Ultimately your point is …

                  National will be falling all over itself to gift the Conservative Party Leader a safe electoral seat

                  And both PB and I have explained what that would mean. Can’t be bothered to do it yet again, you either understand or you don’t.

                  • bad12

                    Your basic electoral math are marked an F for failed…

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Well I’ll take that under advisement. But seeing you seem to think Roy Morgan decided to start polling conservative voters, whatever that means (do you think they have some in a box?), I’ll be honest and say that I won’t be giving it too much weight.

                    • bad12

                      PB, i am not sure if you are being deliberately abstruse but it is pretty simple to understand that ”for the first time Roy Morgan has decided to include the Conservative Party in it’s published poll”,

                      In other words Roy Morgan has never had a % for the Conservatives in any of it’s published polls and the fact that i have to explain this to you makes me feel as if i address a five year old,

                      2.65% was the Conservatives share of the party vote at the 2011 election so i am assuming that is where Roy Morgan is taking it’s present level of 3% for the Conservatives in it’s latest poll,

                      There is of course another reason that the Conservative Party is included in the latest Roy Morgan at that level and that is that they are actually polling at that 3% as shown in the Roy Morgan poll,

                      The reason why Roy Morgan has belatedly included the Conservative Party in it’s published poll???,

                      My take on this,as per the rumors of National’s internal polling having shown a collapse of support both for the Party, and, for the first time a similar collapse of support for Slippery the Prime Minister not reflected in the mainstream polls, National have now realized that they need the Conservatives to gain a 3rd term in 2014 and Roy Morgan’s belated inclusion of the Conservatives in it’s polling is simply to give publicity, therefor electoral oxygen to that Party…

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      The reason they are included in the published poll is probably that this is the first time they’ve shown up in the results of the poll.

                      Take a look at previous results for “others” that is where they were recorded previously along with the Alliance and legalise pot and all the others.

                      The election result has nothing to do with a poll, so I’m not sure of your point there.

                      But the fact remains. they are now showing up in polls, and national’s on line mouth pieces are freaking out about it and their comment sections are full of righties arguing with each other and calling each other names.

                      If national gifts the Cons a seat, if they cut a deal in the campaign, what do you think will happen next?

                      That’s what you haven’t addressed. You seem to think that that wouldn’t affect National’s vote. Look at how people, including the media, reacted to the Banks deal.

                      I think the public’s appetite for thsoe shennanagins has faded for starters, and their appetite for a deal with the Cons will be even less.

                    • bad12

                      ”Look at how people reacted to the Banks deal”, (deliberately forgetting the media reaction as that reaction was more to do with beating up National over the Ambrose taping of the conversation),

                      Gosh when i LOOK at what happened, i see National +Banks+’the Hairdo’ which is a Government,

                      Had National also gifted the Conservative Party a safe electoral seat in 2011 the result would have been National+Banks+’the Hairdo’+3 more for a majority not requiring the Maori Party,

                      I wonder what YOU see when you LOOK at what happened at the 2011 election…

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Yeah, I deliberately forgot about the media reaction, which is why I specifically said to bear it in mind. :roll:

                      You still haven’t addressed the point of how such a deal would affect swing voters. Your assumption is that it wouldn’t affect them at all. That’s the only way your simplistic adding up of the votes they got *without such a deal* makes sense.

                      The fact of a deal being in place, will influnce voters. Thta’s why they make the fucking deals. they weigh the pros and cons, and do what works.

                      Now why do you think they didn’t do a deal with the zcons last time B12? Riddle me that one. They were pollling better than ACT, so why didn’t they cut them in if it was such an obvious move? And why are they attacking them no? And why are the right wing comment threads all slagging each other off?

                      Could it be that internal polling tells them how swing voters would view such a deal? would that explain the observable facts?

                    • bad12

                      Can you show me a link to this ”better polling” by the Conservatives leading up to the 2011 election???

                      The right wing blog sites??? why the hell would i bother to read such rubbish, the meaningless gibberish fermented by the Farrer’s and blubber-boys of this world are best left for them to read,

                      Small sects of the right arguing are meaningless, they all will still be voting right,

                      The fact that a deal was in place over Epsom only goes to show that right wing voters will do as they are told by the hierarchy,

                      You are now dancing ever faster on the head of a pin making the discussion meaningless in terms of my original intent in mentioning the first inclusion of the Conservatives in a Roy Morgan poll,

                      The proof of the pudding will be in the lead up to the 2014 election where i fully expect the Slippery National Government to do a deal with the Colin Craig Conservatives,

                      My equation vis a vis such a deal= deal done chance of National 3rd term, deal not done bye bye National in 2014…

                    • gobsmacked

                      @B12

                      The fact that a deal was in place over Epsom only goes to show that right wing voters will do as they are told by the hierarchy

                      The deal in Epsom began in 2005, and evolved over three elections. The message in the last two elections was “Vote for me, get Key”. By 2011 it was totally, almost absurdly, loyal to Key. Banks talked about little else.

                      Do you think Craig will send the same loyal message (in Rodney, or any other electorate)?

                      Do you think Colin Craig will (simultaneously, somehow) pick up votes by slagging off Key?

                      Do you think National will embrace Craig, or attack him? Or … both?

                      Let’s assume I’m a fool. If you know National’s strategy, could you please explain it, by answering these questions?

                    • bad12

                      Yes i assumed i was addressing a fool at the point of you first commenting on what i was saying,

                      As nothing you have said further to that first comment has served to disabuse me of the original assumption there is little point in further discussion within this post on the issue vis a vis the Conservatives, their polling, and the coincidence of the Lousia Wall Legislation being pulled form the ballot as such will only serve to further drag the discussion away from it’s original intention,

                      I am sure the issue will arise for further discussion at some other point in time…

                    • gobsmacked

                      That first comment raised half a dozen questions, none of which you have addressed. Subsequently both PB and I have raised numerous further points, and you’ve ignored them too. Which is kind of rude, frankly.

                      At least your last sentence made sense.

      • Populuxe1 10.4.3

        To quote Dorothy Parker, “Heterosexuality isn’t normal, it’s just common.”

      • Populuxe1 10.4.4

        Gosh darn it and tarnation! Animals procreate all the time – we’d better start pairing off and marrying up our livestock. While we’re at it, we should probably make them wear clothes too – what if one of our ladyfolk should accidentally clap eyes on a nekkid animal?

    • marsman 10.5

      @ kiwi_prometheus. Yawn.

    • QoT 10.6

      So you would also advocate that the State forcibly divorce couples who choose or are forced to remain childless?

      I mean, if procreation’s your thing, surely infertile people don’t deserve to sneak in to your speshul liddle institution.

      • lostinsuburbia 10.6.1

        Don’t forget the medals for women who lots of kids (within wedlock of course!). There was a central European country in the 1930s that use to do it.

    • Daveosaurus 10.7

      Yes, because the world is grossly underpopulated and the entire human species is in danger of falling below the numbers essential for its continued survival.

      Oh wait….

    • Carol 10.8

      And what the world needs now is everyone procreating as much as possible. :roll:

      Or, we could encourage people to procreate less, and everyone to provide as much nurturing and care to children as possible.

    • Populuxe1 10.9

      Except the ones with fertility problems and older couples, but wait… They’re allowed to get married…

    • mike e 10.10

      kp rev Graham Capill would agree with you

  11. Dr Terry 11

    Christian Colin Craig asserts that we must “never change what already exists” Now were this true, today’s society would precede the dark ages. We are always changing things that already exist; Craig’s own Master (Jesus) radically changed what already existed in politics and religion in his day on earth.

    Is Colin presenting himself as the final arbiter of what is constitutes the “normal” in human life? There is no such thing as “normal”- there are but variations upon whatever the norm pretends to be. Every heterosexual person is to varying extents made up of male and female genes, so what the heck is “normal” Colin? (Possibly you fear your own more feminine traits).

    Then Mr Craig tries to assure us that “people choose to be gay”and with little intelligence completely contradicts himself with the rider, “Many as a result of being abused as children”. I suppose that is as good a wild guess as any (totally unsubstantiated). Colin’s best skills might lie in the composition of fairy stories.Moreover, do any of us possess altogether free choice over anything? Our choices and decisions in life arise from a myriad of circumstances (not limited the abuse in childhood).

    Key, of course, waits until he sees which way the wind is blowing. It will not be easy to fall out of line with his many red-necked adherents.

    This debate concerns loving human relationships, and is too often spoiled by acrimony. Let’s attend to the vast number of inter-relating concerns in country and world that are the diametric opposite of what Love stands for. Thank God if women can love women, men love men – thank God for any semblance of love in society, for it is rather in short supply.

    The issue at hand is gay marriage and raising the topic of adoption by gays is, of course, nothing but the old tactic of distraction. Once we have settled the question of gay marriage, then we can turn to the question of adoption, if this can be done intelligently and not with unproven and poisonous biases.

    • “The issue at hand is gay marriage”

      I disagree with that. The issue is equal rights to get married no matter what your sexuality is.

      • KJT 11.1.1

        For once I agree with PG.

      • kiwi_prometheus 11.1.2

        You have the equal right like every other NZer to get married to a woman if you are man and vice versa.

        • Pascal's bookie 11.1.2.1

          Do you think closeted homosexuals marrying heterosexuals is a good idea for the raising of children?

          How, odd.

          • kiwi_prometheus 11.1.2.1.1

            Whose forcing them to? There are Civil Unions to recognise same sex relationships.

            • Pascal's bookie 11.1.2.1.1.1

              I thought you were saying that if they want to get married now then they can, and that we don’t need to change the law to make the marriages legally availableto them, better.

              I admit though, that this thought was bsed on the idea that you could string a few propositions together to form a syllogism. I make that mistake quite often when talking about things with conservatives.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                Pete George claimed gays equal rights to marriage were being violated.

                They don’t have rights to marriage.

                Marriage is between a man and a woman. It’s not marriage otherwise.

                If you are attracted to the same sex then you can’t marry. You can get a Civil Union. Why would you want to go on the down low just to get married?

                What’s gays fixation with marriage?

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Here’s what you said:

                  “You have the equal right like every other NZer to get married to a woman if you are man and vice versa.”

                  so should they or shouldn’t they?

                  Or were you just being a dick?

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    Rights aren’t about whether you should but whether you can.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      So you were being a dick then. Shocked I tell you, just shocked.

                      have you found the part of the marriage act where it talks about procreation yet? It’s kind of crucial to your argument. It’d be a knock out blow, you should get right on to that.

                    • Populuxe1

                      I’m sure I just heard Helen Lovejoy shriek “Won’t somebody please think of the children!”
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

                • felix

                  “Marriage is between a man and a woman. It’s not marriage otherwise.”

                  I know a few woodworkers who’d disagree with you there kp. And Jesus was a bit of a woodworker. And they’ve got a magical book that proves they’re correct too. (A dictionary)

                  “What’s gays fixation with marriage?”

                  What’s women’s fixation with voting? One man one vote, it’s not even a vote if you’re not a man, obviously.

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    Arguments for extensions to who votes are not arguments for extensions to who can get married, you disingenuous little pussy cat, you!

                  • QoT

                    Sure, k_p. You say “I define X as Y so if it’s not-Y it’s not-X”, felix copies that exact premise back to you, and when you refuse to take the point, felix is the one being disingenuous.

                    BTW, still no comment on the fact that people who have different legal genders yet identical biological sex and thus can never procreate can currently get married, making your tautological bullshit a load of … tautological bullshit?

                • RedBlooded

                  What’s your fixation with not allowing equal rights? Wailing “Marriage is between a man and a woman” endlessly still wont make it right under the law once this law passes. Hopefully equal rights are on the way and despite your fears and wailing the sky will not fall in and your marriage will in no way be affected.

                • Populuxe1

                  What’s gays fixation with marriage?

                  You’re the one that seems to be unhealthily preoccupied with the subject.

    • kiwi_prometheus 11.2

      Dr Terry -> “There is no such thing as “normal”.”

      Is that your professional opinion, Dr Terry?

      Marriage between a man and woman is normal mate. Just ask any NZer, you willfind they think there is such a thing as ‘normal’ otherwise the word wouldn’t enjoy such popular usage.

      Your semantic game to render the word ‘normal’ meaningless is a laugh.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1

        Just ask any NZer, you willfind they think there is such a thing as ‘normal’ otherwise the word wouldn’t enjoy such popular usage.

        Um, either NZHerald or Stuff did on their online polling (which is notoriously inaccurate) and 80% of people thought that gay marriage was normal, i.e, they were supportive of it. What you’re really showing us with that sentence is your own bigotry and ignorance.

        • kiwi_prometheus 11.2.1.1

          Ok first you confess the polls don’t mean shit but then you use them to conclude I am ignorant and bigoted.

          Irrational.

          • NickS 11.2.1.1.1

            Awww, cupcake, can’t you grok polling 101? In that onlines polls due to their self-selective nature are a lot more biased than a phone poll that has random, stratified selection, and thus statistically are pretty fucking useless.

          • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.1.2

            Actually, the whole point of me saying that they’re inaccurate is because of the bias of the readers of both Stuff and NZHerald. Generally speaking they’re the group that you’d expect to be most against gay marriage and they’re for it.

            BTW, I linked up a bit to an actual poll by TVNZ and that says that the people are ~75% in favour of gay marriage.

    • weka 11.3

      “Christian Colin Craig asserts that we must “never change what already exists””
       
      I think what he means is what already exists now. Otherwise there would be no JudeoChristian god, who was a latecomer to the scene anyway.

      • McFlock 11.3.1

        An ncremental change is disturbingly close to evolution, and we can’t have that…

      • Populuxe1 11.3.2

        So we go back to slavery, forbidding interracial marriages, killing disobedient children, concubines and so forth?

    • millsy 11.4

      If Colin Craig had his way, this country will be Taliban controlled Afghanistan. No politically correct social engineering there..

  12. millsy 12

    The way I see it, how people determine their sexual preferences, family arrangements, relationships is really not for the church, or for the government to decide and quite frankly, no one elses business.

    It really pisses me off how people who think someone with a magic(k) wand made everything about 3000-odd years ago, and read a fairy tale written by someone who was probably high on hashish at the time, should dictate how people should live their lives, which is pretty much swaddling people in a social straitjacket, forcing people into an arbitrary living arrangement of a man, woman and 2 kids, which IMO has lead to untold misery for thousands of people who don’t see that as suiting their needs. Divorce and domestic violence rates attest to that.

    I dont really see any harm in opening marriage up to same sex couples. In fact, I fully support it.

    And quite frankly the god-botherers can get fucked. Well kick the shit out of them like we did over the arrangement of the solar system, evolution, divorce, spousal rape, abortion, civil unions and smacking.

    • kiwi_prometheus 12.1

      Marriage is between a man and a woman.

      Marriage creates social stability – just take look at the alternatives attempted since the 1960s – Center Point anyone?

      No one is being forced to get married. There is the option of Civil Unions for those who don’t meet the criteria for marriage or prefer not to marry but want some kind of state recognition.

      • Pascal's bookie 12.1.1

        “Marriage creates social stability”

        That’s a great conservative argument for opening up mrriage to include the other sorts of relationships that humans want to have.

        • kiwi_prometheus 12.1.1.1

          “other sorts of relationships” aren’t marriage.

          Go make up a word for them if you like. Claim that they enhance social stability if you like.

          Leave marriage alone.

          • Pascal's bookie 12.1.1.1.1

            Marriage is defined in legislation. You can look it up. Change the legislation, change the definition. Logic see. Deal.

            • kiwi_prometheus 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Sure you can change it so someone can marry a horse or a magic blue leprechaun. Logic see.

              • Pascal's bookie

                Could indeed. Don’t think we should though. And have arguments for why I think that.

                But seeing you agree we can change the definition by changing the legislaition, ‘poof’, that was your argument disappearing in a puff of…logic.

              • RedBlooded

                Oh Jeez, we knew this was coming. Sure kp and if I’m allowed to marry my horse I promise I will allow you to marry yours as well. /sarc. There you go, it’s called equal rights.

                • felix

                  :D I hope this human/horse coupling isn’t going to be gay though. Marriage is only between male and female mammals.

                  • mac1

                    D’ja ever see a female centaur?

                    • felix

                      If I did I’d definitely propose.

                      Seriously though, this whole “next you’ll want to marry your dog” bit kind of implies that gay people are a bit like animals, with no ability to consent or decide.

                      Which makes me wonder how they’ll ever get married…

                  • RedBlooded

                    Oh yeah, and of course unless science finds a way to create children from this mythical marriage in k_p’s world then the marriage wouldn’t be real either. I obviously hadn’t thought through the seriousness of marrying my horse. :-)

                    • felix

                      “I obviously hadn’t thought through the seriousness of marrying my horse.”

                      If I had a bag of oats for every time I’ve heard that…

        • just saying 12.1.1.2

          The infamous English Wests anyone.

      • rosy 12.1.2

        Marriage creates social stability

        hmmm – not for my family. But if it did, that’s an excellent line in support of gay marriage.

      • millsy 12.1.3

        Social stability comes from a comprehensive welfare state, and extensive provision and funding of social services and assets from kindergartens to hospitals to libraries , as well as encouragement of high wages through fair employment law, not dictating to people what relationships to form with each other.

        And Bert Potter was a disgusting pervert who set up centerpoint so he would have a ready supply of 12 year old girls — same reason why other disgusting perverts enter the preisthood.

      • mike e 12.1.4

        kiddi phiddler Bigot
        Churches of one sort or another have a far worse record

  13. i agree mostly (not the kicking bit) with millsy on this. I support same-sex couples getting married if they want.

    I’ve been married twice and divorced twice. I believed in marriage when i made my vows, I’m not sure i do now.

    • bad12 13.1

      All this talk of marriage, how feudal can we all get, gods sake are we all that much into bondage, i find the whole issue of marriage to be a declaration of ones property rights over another…

  14. infused 14

    You should probably post JK’s entire speech about it. Reason for it being shot down was because it offered nothing over what’s there currently.

  15. Tanz 15

    A referendum though is a good idea for gauging the numbers for and against.

    • QoT 15.1

      Only if the question is unambiguous. Mind you, maybe the pro-marriage equality folks could get together on this and pull a Larry Baldock:

      “Should same-sex marriage for the purposes of good cultural inclusiveness not be considered an offence in New Zealand?”

    • millsy 15.2

      Sounds OK to me. It will enable the god-botherers to put their money where their mouths are.

  16. chris73 16

    I’ve always thought that anything that promotes monogamy and fidelity within a relationship can only be a good thing

    As for the adoption thing well if a child can have two loving parents then that’s better than most of us get so good on them

    • Pascal's bookie 16.1

      Very well said Chris.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.2

      I’ve always thought that anything that promotes monogamy and fidelity within a relationship can only be a good thing

      Only if you’re the monogamous type. Not really applicable to the polygynous, polyamory and swinger types.

  17. Murray Olsen 17

    Why is a closet homosexual like Kiwi PromQueen allowed to spew his filthy bile without moderation? Trying to use logic on that fruitcake is like reciting poetry to a rotting whale carcass. It won’t hear a thing and the smell just gets worse.

  18. I see this as an argument over the definition of a word – marriage = man and woman, and has done since the word was ‘created’. Now if the fags want all the legal rights of a married ‘straight couple’ most people don’t have a problem with that, so lets just have a different name, here are some suggestions

    Gayriage
    Homoriage
    Lesyrige
    Fagrige

    or whatever?
    Just leave the word marriage to the ‘people’ who started it.
    And all you gay fucks can have your own word?

    NB I’m ok with anyone fucking anyone, as long as both ‘fuckies’ are consenting adults, and there are no children produced.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    It is all bullshit

    • gobsmacked 18.1

      Just leave the word marriage to the ‘people’ who started it.

      You’ll need to think that one through.

    • felix 18.2

      The word is “fuckees“.

    • Te Reo Putake 18.3

      Jeez, Robert, there’s no need for the homophobia. Your other comments on the economy and the environment suggest you are an intelligent chap, if somewhat depressed. Lift your game, eh.

      • Robert Atack 18.3.1

        Sorry Te, just poking sticks at fools who want to argue about pointless crap

        And I had enough ‘gay’ contacts to know ‘they’ would not mind my comments.

    • I see this as an argument over the definition of a word – marriage = man and woman, and has done since the word was ‘created’

      Origin:
      1250–1300; Middle English marien < Old French marier < Latin marītāre to wed, derivative of marītus conjugal, akin to mās male (person)

      Word Origin & History
      marry
      c.1300, from O.Fr. marier, from L. maritare "to wed, marry, give in marriage," from maritus "married man, husband," of uncertain origin, perhaps ult. from "provided with a *mari," a young woman, from PIE base *meri- "young wife," akin to *meryo- "young man" (cf. Skt. marya- "young man, suitor").

      marry
      a common oath in the Middle Ages, c.1350, now obsolete, a corruption of the name of the Virgin Mary.

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/marry

      Nothing there definitively saying marriage = man and woman.

      And anyone who knows about language evolution will say the definition history is irrelevant. “Gay” has evolved to a variety of modern uses, eg merry, homosexual and lame.

      As others have said, how we legally define marriage is up to us now.

      It could be said that Louisa Wall is trying to make marry merry.

      • QoT 18.4.1

        marry
        a common oath in the Middle Ages, c.1350, now obsolete, a corruption of the name of the Virgin Mary.

        Now THAT I did not know. Today, I have learnt something via Pete George. Possible sign of the Apocalypse? :P

    • Another common anti equality line is that marriage should be left ‘as it always was’.

      Marriage used to commonly be a contract of a man taking ownership of a woman.
      Marriage used to commonly be the only financial security a woman could have.
      Marriage used to be a power arrangement (where one or both people being married had no say).
      Marriage used to often be under shotgun conditions.
      Marriage used to be the only acceptable way a child could leave the family home.
      Marriage used to be the primary ‘career’ choice of women.

      Most of that no longer happens (in New Zealand at least), fortunately.

      Marriage has evolved into being an optional voluntary equal arrangement and commitment between two people.

      A bit more evolution won’t hurt most people, but it will help some people and will be far better than some of the oppressive marriage practices of the past.

      • mike e 18.5.1

        By jeezzez Pg you can speak sense good on you.
        Don’t forget how many unhappy marriages their are and divorces once frowned on by the church.
        Any couple who are happy in their relationship good luck to them its not that common.

      • terryg 18.5.2

        dammit Pete, just when I had you pidgeonholed as a blithering idiot, you go and get all reasoned, rational and progressive on me. well done sir.

    • Populuxe1 18.6

      For the record, Robert, the only context where the word “fag” isn’t highly offensive is as slang for cigarette.

      • Robert Atack 18.6.1

        It is only a word, surly being rogered by the banks and government every day is more offensive?
        But what the hell, maybe you don’t have children to worry about, I haven’t, but I gave it 10 years of effort to help the unfortunate buggers.

      • mike e 18.6.2

        or a bunch thin branches or sticks in a bundle used for firewood possibly irish.

    • “I see this as an argument over the definition of a word – marriage = man and woman, and has done since the word was ‘created’. Now if the fags want all the legal rights of a married ‘straight couple’ most people don’t have a problem with that, so lets just have a different name, here are some suggestions

      Gayriage
      Homoriage
      Lesyrige
      Fagrige

      or whatever?
      Just leave the word marriage to the ‘people’ who started it.
      And all you gay fucks can have your own word?

      NB I’m ok with anyone fucking anyone, as long as both ‘fuckies’ are consenting adults, and there are no children produced. It is all bullshit”

      Are you even attempting to posit a rational argument? Or just reliant on naked prejudice and silly comments to make your point?

      • Robert Atack 18.7.1

        Just not giving a fuck really ;)
        Like I said before I was just poking a stick at people debating bullshit.
        You can walk around with a rasp shoved up your bum, and call it your true love as far as I’m concerned.
        We are a bunch of soon to be extinct monkeys, nothing matters.
        Apart from maybe algal blooms, locus swarms, and rat plagues, we are one of the only species ‘smart’ enough to destroy our future living arrangement.
        But yeah my naked prejudice for the truth, while surrounded by so much denial, does make me lose the plot now and then.

        • Populuxe1 18.7.1.1

          If you don’t give a “fuck”, may I respectfully suggest you “fuck” off.

          • terryg 18.7.1.1.1

            hmm, someone appears to have deliberately rammed their head up their bum. can we blame that on climate change? methinks not.

  19. Populuxe1 19

    I fail to see how that, whatever you actually mean, has anything to do with you being obnoxiously offensive. C**t is only a word. N****r is only a word. Grown ups still refrain from using them in polite, or at least public conversation.

  20. Johnm 20

    R. Atack’s comments have given me the best LOL, LOL, LOL I’ve had for a very long time ,thankyou Robert over and out!

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  • Selfies: Labour’s Electorate MPs are at it again
    IT’S A LITTLE TRIANGLE of grass at the corner of Rewa Street and Mt Eden Road, ideal for election hoardings. Wandering along Mt Eden Road last Saturday morning to our weekly appointment with the brunch menu at Orvieto, my family and...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • Well, well, well – Jonathan Coleman did know about FBI interest into Kim ...
    Last years GCSB Town Hall meeting in Auckland Oh dear, the cover up and lies are starting to fall over now aren’t they… Coleman knew of FBI interest in Dotcom pre-residency decisionGovernment minister Jonathan Coleman knew the FBI was interested...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Why You Must March Against Factory Farming This Saturday, 12pm
    The rally this Saturday is critical because this is the FIRST TIME IN NEW ZEALAND HISTORY that a major party has agreed to ban all intensive factory farming practices. The Labour party, the Greens, Internet-Mana, the SPCA, SAFE and other...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Astronaut tweets photo of explosions over Israel and Gaza from space
      This is what a war zone looks like from space: From aboard the International Space Station, German astronaut Alexander Gerst tweeted this image as the station passed over Israel and Gaza in what he called ‘his saddest photo yet’....
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • When Firstline are focusing on flag burning rather than dead Palestinian ch...
    The IDF are butchering children in UN schools this morning and what’s the big issue on TV3s Firstline? Flag burning. How pathetic, and what a slap in the face to Mike McRoberts who is currently risking his life in Gaza...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • ‘Victim’ vs ‘Terrorist’
    ‘Victim’ vs ‘Terrorist’...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Petition asking TVNZ to stand Hosking down as election moderator jumps to o...
    In just a day the petition calling on TVNZ to replace Hosking as the election moderator has jumped to over 2500, you can sign it here. The defence that the Right are trying to run here is that John Campbell...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • When the mainstream media go feral: the descent into sheer farce, according...
    . . It had to happen, I guess… The media pack-campaign against Labour Leader David Cunliffe has managed to  plumb new depths of absurdity. On TV3, on 24 July,  TV3/Tova O’Brien ran this report on their 6PM News bulletin, about...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Coalition for Better Broadcasting: MIKE HOSKING FOR PM?
    Yes indeed. Mike Hosking is for the PM. And now he’s able to do even more as moderator (or should that be immoderator) of TVNZ’s election debates. Here at the Coalition for Better Broadcasting we feel it’s pretty safe to say that...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • The lie that “There is no alternative” to neo-liberal economic policies
    Supporters of President Maduro in Venezuela rally   Since the 1980s we have had drubbed into our heads that there was no alternative to the economic and social policies unleashed at that time. It even had it’s own acronym – TINA. The...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • A Kanaky tale of mining skulduggery and environmental courage
    Florent Eurisouké … still campaigning against mining. Photo: Del Abcede/PMC David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific AN EXTRAORDINARY story of mining skulduggery and a courageous struggle by indigenous Kanak environmental campaigners has been captured in a poignant new documentary,...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • UNBREAKING: The list of questions Mike Hosking will use in first TVNZ leade...
    “Good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the first TVNZ leaders debate being held live in the gloriously beautiful Sky City ball room. It’s such a beautiful building boys and girls, we are so blessed to have Sky City...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Internet Party Party review
      I have been to A LOT of political party functions in my time, and they tend to be dull affairs at the best of times but what is happening with Internet MANA is something quite exciting. I went to...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Dear Seven Sharp – after learning Hosking will be the leaders debate ...
    I have to be honest, I had made the decision last night  to accept Seven Sharp’s hastily offered opportunity to appear on their show after I savagely criticised the bullshit whitewash story they did on John Key’s favourite far right hate speech...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates Wednesday, 23 Jul 2014 | Press Release This is another reminder that the National Government does not care about the survival of the Maui’s dolphin National...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Message from CTU President Helen Kelly
    MIL OSI – Source: Unite Union – Headline: Message from CTU President Helen Kelly Dear MikeThere’s only 43 days until September 3, when voting in the General Election starts. The last day to vote is September 20.Thanks heaps for signing...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour Posted on July 23, 2014 by admin in Joe Carolan, Press Releases“Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week”,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • We must act to save our dolphins
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: We must act to save our dolphins A new report makes it clear for the urgent need to protect Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins while arguing  it is clear that there is no...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • School told to manipulate national standards data
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: School told to manipulate national standards data Parents can have little confidence in the Government’s National Standards after an Auckland school was told to manipulate its data so it added up, Labour’s...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Regional economies must have tailored plans
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Regional economies must have tailored plans News that up to 114 jobs could be lost from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton reinforces the need for a government plan to build resilient regional...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Auditor General slams Shared Services project
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Auditor General slams Shared Services project The Auditor-General’s Office could not have been more damning about the 18 months spent on the Central Agency Shared Services (CASS) project at the Finance and...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato The potential loss of up to 114 jobs from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton is a massive blow to the Waikato region which has...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital The decision to reject the proposed flyover at the Basin Reserve must be taken as an opportunity to properly fund Wellington’s transport future and must...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Indonesia: New President Widodo must make good on human rights pledges
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Indonesia: New President Widodo must make good on human rights pledges Indonesia’s new President Joko Widodo must deliver on campaign promises to improve Indonesia’s dire human rights situation, Amnesty International said....
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Communities in Sierra Leone turn their backs on female genital mutilation
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Communities in Sierra Leone turn their backs on female genital mutilation While activists gather in London to discuss strategies to tackle female genital mutilation, communities across Sierra Leone have been taking...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • The Gambia: Activists mark 20 years of iron-fisted repression
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: The Gambia: Activists mark 20 years of iron-fisted repression The Gambian government must abolish the laws and iron fisted practices that have resulted in two decades of widespread human rights violations,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • A blog from the front lines of Palestine: It’s time for a new narrative
    I don’t know if I follow trouble or if trouble follows me, but somehow I seem to have found myself near one of the world’s hotspots again. The difference this time is that instead of sitting in some obscure location,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Michael Wood – The Path Ahead
    It’s well established that Labour has had a difficult couple of weeks. Getting back on to a successful path requires our focus to shift from looking inwards to outwards, heightened discipline, and inner conviction. While my assessment of New Zealand...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Employers liquidating companies to avoid paying minimum entitlements
    Across the union movement we have seen a number of documented cases now where companies are liquidating their business in order to avoid their legal obligations, in terms of paying the minimum entitlements to their workers. The most recent example...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Carolan : Positively Controversial
    The protest in Auckland last weekend that the NZ Herald claimed was attend by only a hundred people. Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week. A good start would be for all their...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Come on TV3 News – you are better than regurgitating Israeli propaganda
    Say it isn’t true TV3 News, you are seriously bitching about this???? The leader of the Mana Party, Hone Harawira, has supported flag burning at a pro-Palestinian march in Auckland at the weekend. Mana Party flags can be seen in...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • The brutal siege of Palestine
    70 years ago the Jews of Europe suffered as much as any people can suffer. The Nazis set about ethnic cleansing and sent 6 million to their death. Today we watch in horror as Israel, the Jewish homeland created after...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • When the mainstream media go feral: A tale of two holidays
    . . The recent non-story on David Cunliffe’s three day holiday should be proof-positive that the mainstream media (msm) is fixated on pumping out as many “bad news” reporting as can be generated by a headline-seeking; advertising-driven; lazy corporate-media system....
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Canterbury housing crisis a moral, economic, health, education, and social ...
    Can they build it? No they can’t.  Occasionally I come across people who don’t believe me when I say there is a housing crisis in Christchurch.  Despite all the evidence to the contrary.  Even when I tell them that every...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Respected world visionaries of the past speak out on Israel
    Respected world visionaries of the past speak out on Israel...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • From Here To There: How did Labour become so hopelessly lost?
    WRITING ABOUT the Labour Party these days puts me in mind of the joke about the American tourist and the Irish farmer. Seems there was this American tourist driving down a narrow lane in the heart of Ireland. He needed...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Oh NOW everyone thinks the ABCs are up to no good?
    Goodness last months June seems like years away doesn’t it? In June I pointed out a move by the ABCs to destabilise Cunliffe was under way. For pointing this out, Labour Party bloggers Rob Salmond and Lynn Prentice rushed to put...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Dear Seven Sharp – I have little interest in appearing on your show so th...
    After savagely critiquing Seven Sharp for trying to whitewash the repulsive history of a far right hate speech merchant like Cameron Slater yesterday, Seven Sharp have contacted me and offered to do a profile on me. Here is their email…...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Basin Flyover decision victory for common sense
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: Basin Flyover decision victory for common sense Tuesday, 22 Jul 2014 | Press Release “Both popular and expert opinion opposed the flyover. The proposal was expensive, unnecessary and would have undermined the...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • CPAG Newsletter July 2014
    MIL OSI – Source: Child Poverty Action Group – Headline: CPAG Newsletter July 2014 22 July 2014 New child poverty data nothing to celebrate New data released by the Ministry of Social Development  indicates people living below the poverty line are worse...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Hotel ordered to pay $80,000 in outstanding wages
    MIL OSI – Source: Unite Union – Headline: Hotel ordered to pay $80,000 in outstanding wages An Auckland hotel has been ordered by the Employment Relations Authority to pay nearly $80,000 in outstanding wages to two employees. Filipino couple Abraham...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Rising interest rate and dollar driving manufacturing exports back to Globa...
    MIL OSI – Source: CTU – Headline: Rising interest rate and dollar driving manufacturing exports back to Global Financial Crisis levels The Council of Trade Unions is calling on the Reserve Bank not to raise interest rates on Thursday. “Another...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime a...
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations The continuing bombardment of civilian homes in several areas of the Gaza Strip, as well as the Israeli shelling...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Central African Republic: Brazzaville talks should not lead to amnesties fo...
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Central African Republic: Brazzaville talks should not lead to amnesties for war crimes Amnesty International called on delegates to the Central African Republic (CAR) National Reconciliation talks due to take place...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Russia increases stranglehold on dissent as five more NGOs named ‘foreign...
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Russia increases stranglehold on dissent as five more NGOs named ‘foreign agents’ The Russian Ministry of Justice today registered four more Russian human rights organizations and one environmental group as “foreign...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Nigeria: World Bank panel turns its back on forcibly evicted community
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Nigeria: World Bank panel turns its back on forcibly evicted community The decision by a World Bank Inspection Panel to refuse to investigate a complaint about forced evictions linked to a...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • National out of touch with the regions
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: National out of touch with the regions John Key is out of touch with regional New Zealand if he believes tinkering with council regulations will restore opportunities to small towns, Labour Leader...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Flyover rejection a victory for sustainable transport
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Flyover rejection a victory for sustainable transport The rejection of the proposed Basin Reserve flyover by a Board of Inquiry is a victory for sustainable transport in Wellington and paves the way...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • Loss Leading could destroy Kiwi lamb’s reputation
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Loss Leading could destroy Kiwi lamb’s reputation Meat companies that supply supermarkets and sell New Zealand lamb as a loss leader in the United Kingdom should lose their access to this valuable...
    The Daily Blog | 22-07
  • The Nation 26,27 July: Flavell & Harawira, Joe Hockey
    On The Nation this weekend…. With the Maori seats primed to play a pivotal role this election, Torben Akel reports from the key battlegrounds and meets the top contenders. Then the Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana Party...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Announcement of New Zealand First Candidate for Rangitīkei
    New Zealand First has endorsed Dr Romuald (‘Rom’) Rudzki as the candidate for the Rangitīkei Electorate in the 2014 General Election....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Labour Offer Len Brown a Hotel Tax
    The Taxpayers’ Union is slamming the Labour Party's plan to allow councils to levy new 'pillow taxes' and regional petrol taxes. Reacting to this afternoon’s NZ Herald report Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union ,...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Cell phone evidence a first
    Cell phone evidence a first Evidence gathered solely from a cell phone has been used for the first time to convict a Hastings man for possessing child sexual abuse pictures. Michael Lawrence Worsnop, a 29-year-old orchard worker pleaded guilty to...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • New Zealand Aid Worker Helping in Gaza
    A New Zealand Red Cross nurse working in Gaza says she has never experienced anything like the current conflict in her long aid work career....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Parking officers deserve safety at work
    The union representing the Auckland Transport parking officer severely beaten on July 17 says everyone has a right to go about their job without fear for their safety....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Caritas Aotearoa NZ to provide Gaza humanitarian aid
    Caritas Jerusalem is providing medical assistance, food and other necessities to the thousands of vulnerable people affected by the escalating conflict in Gaza, and Caritas Aotearoa New Zealand is contributing an initial $20,000 to support the humanitarian...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • ALCP challenges parties to support Charlotte’s Web
    The leader of the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party Julian Crawford is calling on all other political parties to state their position on using cannabis oil to treat pediatric epilepsy....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Oxfam accepts cheque from Pacific Corporation Foundation
    Oxfam New Zealand has accepted a cheque for almost $1000 today from the Pacific Corporation Foundation toward recovery efforts in the Solomon Islands, following April’s flash flooding that left thousands homeless....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Draft report and decision – Pūhoi to Warkworth proposal
    The Ara Tūhono – Pūhoi to Wellsford Road of National Significance: Pūhoi to Warkworth section Board of Inquiry has released its draft report and decision....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • New Zealanders willing to pay tax to protect dolphins
    A report released this week shows a large majority of New Zealanders want Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins protected and they are prepared to pay for it....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Stop Smart Meters
    “The Democrats for Social Credit Party (DSC) wholeheartedly endorses the Stop Smart Meters campaign for a moratorium on installations of smart meters until the technology is proven not be a risk to health, and until home owners are given a...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Maori Roll Electors Urged to Vote Strategically
    Voters enrolled in the seven Maori electorates must learn to maximize their influence by voting strategically, according to the Maori Party candidate for Te Tai Tokerau, Rev Te Hira Paenga....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Politicians Ignore Families’ Concerns on Street Prostitution
    Family First NZ says that politicians are ignoring the concerns of families, lack the will to take appropriate action, and are happy to drag the ongoing problem of street prostitution into the next parliamentary term....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Plunket celebrates Te Wiki o te Reo Māori
    Plunket is proud to celebrate Te Wiki o te Reo Māori (21-27 July), with Plunket people across the country among several thousand New Zealanders taking part and increasing their kete of knowledge in te reo....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Coleman must quit or be sacked over Dotcom case
    Immigration New Zealand has done the right thing in distancing itself from Jonathan Coleman’s claims that ministers were not aware of FBI involvement in Kim Dotcom’s residency application, says the Internet Party. Internet Party leader Laila Harré...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Auckland Councillors, Not Emperors
    25 JULY 2014 Responding to the NZ Herald report that Auckland Councillors have voted to keep their ratepayer-funded business class travel perks, and considered new rules that would have exempted councillors from Auckland City's parking charges, Taxpayers’...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Cunliffe Looks Dodgy Lunching with Sex Offender
    Conservative Party Leader Colin Craig says that David Cunliffe's social meeting with a known sex offender while on holiday "looks pretty dodgy."...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Taxpayers’ Union Back LGNZ Calls For Greater Transparency
    The Taxpayers’ Union is backing Local Government New Zealand’s calls for the Official Information Act to be extended to cover the Local Government Commission. Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, says:...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Lecture series to provide insight into 2014 election
    Could National’s refusal to reform MMP lead to the defeat of the government? Is the media providing voters with the information they require to make an informed electoral decision? What directions might John Key’s leadership take if he secures...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • National Rally Against Factory Farming
    Animal advocates and members of the public all over New Zealand will unite for a ‘National Day of Action Against Factory Farming’ Saturday, tomorrow 26 July in response to two recent exposés that showed horrific conditions on pig factory farms....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Women in Politics Finds Support at Conference
    Women in Politics, a brand-new organisation for New Zealand women in political office, was met with overwhelming support at the 2014 Local Government New Zealand Conference held this weekend in Nelson....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • The Government’s Fresh Water Policy – REVISITED
    Fresh water quality is the latest area to be in the sights of Gareth Morgan and his research organisation The Morgan Foundation. They enlisted a group of 16 scientists to help them review the government’s new fresh water policy....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Restoration of Post-graduate Allowances to be Key Issue
    As students prepare for the early voting that will take place on all university and many polytechnic campuses next month, the restoration of post-graduate allowances, removed by the current government in 2013, is emerging as a key election issue....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Honesty for Taxpayers
    ACT has a new proposal to make our democracy more accountable. The proposal may seem small but it could be the most significant idea in this election....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Mike Hosking for PM?
    The Coalition for Better Broadcasting is adding its voice to the many appalled at TVNZ’s choice of Mike Hosking as moderator for the upcoming political debates....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • ‘Party Party’ Hitting the Right Notes
    The “sold out” sign has gone up at the Internet Party’s concert in Christchurch tonight. A capacity crowd of 1000 will be at The Foundry for the Party Party concert, part of a major national musical tour aimed at getting...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • New Electoral Commission Campaign Launches This Weekend
    New Electoral Commission Campaign Launches This Weekend More non-voters than ever before say they don't feel like their vote is worth anything, or that their opinion matters. It's a trend that concerns the Electoral Commission, and the reason for...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Umere says ‘taihoa’ on Māori Language Strategy
    A Maori Language advocacy group, Umere, is calling for a rain check on the Māori Language Strategy Bill, which is being introduced to parliament this week. "The submissions on the MLS have been released by Te Puni Kōkiri and they...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • High cost of GP visits still a barrier for older children
    Free doctor's visits should be extended to all children under 18 as GP charges are a significant barrier for low income families, says Child Poverty Action Group....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • David Cunliffe happy to hide sex offender’s identity
    ..:: For immediate release ::.. 24/07/14 David Cunliffe happy to hide sex offender’s identity - (and in fact enjoy lunch with them)...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • More kids in Southland and Otago are achieving
    Clutha-Southland National candidate Todd Barclay says the Public Achievement Information for 2013 shows New Zealand children are doing better across the whole education system....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Flavell mistaken
    In response to Mr Flavell’s tirade this afternoon Conservative Party Leader Colin Craig advises "Mr Flavell is simply mistaken in his comments."...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • High cost of GP visits still a barrier for older children
    Free doctor's visits should be extended to all children under 18 as GP charges are a significant barrier for low income families, says Child Poverty Action Group....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Taxpayers’ Union Lay Complaint with Speaker
    The Taxpayers’ Unio n has written to Parliament's Speaker, the Rt. Hon. David Carter, asking him to step in and investigate the claims on the WhaleOil blog that taxpayers’ money is being improperly used for Mana Party election campaign hoardings....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • MANA launches te reo Māori policy
    “MANA is launching its te reo Māori policy this morning ahead of the first reading of the government’s Māori Language Strategy Bill this afternoon”, said MANA deputy leader and candidate for Waiariki, Annette Sykes....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Candidate welcomes award of platinum exploration permits
    Clutha-Southland National candidate Todd Barclay has welcomed the Government’s decision to award Lynx Platinum Limited two exploration permits in Southland. Mr Barclay said the minerals industry is an important part of New Zealand’s economy...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Pokie spending and numbers continue to drop
    Pub and club gaming machine expenditure in the year ended June 2014 fell 2.4 per cent from $826.3 million to $806.2 million. There were also fewer licence holders, gambling venues and gaming machines compared with 12 months earlier. Licence holders...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • New Zealand Police to assist in MH17 victim identification
    New Zealand Police is sending three Disaster Victim Identification (DVI) specialists to the Netherlands to assist in the international effort to identify victims from the MH17 tragedy....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Oil Spill Response Strategy available for consultation
    Maritime New Zealand (MNZ) is inviting comment on its draft updated New Zealand Marine Oil Spill Response Strategy....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Police response to IPCA report on Rewa investigation
    Police accept the findings of today's IPCA's report regarding its investigations into offending by Malcolm Rewa in Auckland in the 1980s and 1990s....
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • Well-known kiwis sign on to stop ivory trade
    Today the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Select Committee will consider a complete ban on the ivory trade in response to a petition by Auckland teacher Virginia Woolf and policy analyst Fiona Gordon....
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • Commonwealth Games are not being captioned in New Zealand
    As members of the Captioning Working Group, The National Foundation for the Deaf and Deaf Aotearoa New Zealand call for broadcast captioning of the 2014 Commonwealth Games...
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • Majority of Commonwealth countries are already republics
    The Glasgow Commonwealth Games are here and it's a common misbelief that a Kiwi republic would mean that New Zealand would have to leave the Commonwealth. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth....
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • Police handling of Rewa Investigation
    Although an Independent Police Conduct Authority inquiry has identified some faults with a series of investigations conducted by Police into offending by Malcolm Rewa, there is insufficient evidence that any of these impacted on the ability of Police...
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • IPCA findings on Police handling of Rewa Investigation
    Good morning everyone. I’d like to begin today by explaining that this is an informational press conference and that I will not be taking questions at its conclusion. The reason for that is the report’s findings are the result of...
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • Pay It Back Ms Hauiti
    Responding to the Newstalk ZB report that disgraced MP Claudette Hauiti is refusing to confirm whether or not she has reimbursed taxpayers for misuse of her Parliamentary 'P-card', Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, says: “Ms Hauiti...
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • RSA thanks NZ for $1.7m collected during Poppy Appeal
    The RSA today announced that over $1.7 million was donated to the 2014 Poppy Appeal for the support of veterans, ex-service men and women and their families in need....
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • Students encouraged to be brave and never give up
    Students encouraged to be brave and never give up if they want to 'make it happen'...
    Scoop politics | 23-07
  • New Zealanders want to pay more to protect dolphins
    A report released this week shows a large majority of New Zealanders want Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins protected and they are prepared to pay for it....
    Scoop politics | 23-07
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