Leon Trotsky

captcha: list remedy

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-plans-threehour-daily-respite-for-gaza-1230406.html

nicely skips any rationale for such a move. Israeli TV however, is apparently more upfront

“Explaining to those viewers who might be wondering why Israel allows humanitarian assistance to the other side during times of war, he (Israeli Public TV Reporter) declared that if a full-blown humanitarian catastrophe were to explode among the Palestinian civilian population, the international community would pressure Israel to stop the assault.”

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090112/gordon?rel=hp_currently

Got to give some respite if the torture is never going to stop…..nice.

BTW, missing from any comments is a suggestion that both the Zionist state and the Palestinian state be pushed into the sea. Followed by the other 197 or whatever the number might be at present. So.

Really why is it that righties spout such nonsense? I lived in Israel (many years ago) for a few months. It didn’t make me an expert on anything to do with the Middle East, but hell I do know that Muslims generally don’t around killing non-Muslims just because you happen to meet them in the street. Non-state actors like Hamas and Hezbollah are primarily political creatures, that exist ENTIRELY in response to the actions of Israel. They want to destroy Israel not because of religious differences, but because of what has been done to them in the last 60 years.

It is a really worthwhile exercise to try and put yourself in the shoes of both a Jewish Israeli, and then a Muslim Palestinian for a while. Try and understand the history of what has happened here, and understand why it is that both groups have done so many stupid, counterproductive things to each other over the years, and as a result how much despair, grief and bitterness now lies between them.

There are only two ways for the violence to stop. A lasting negotiated settlement, or the complete elimination of one party from the picture. There are no other options.

The only effective defense is that which can be mounted by non-state organisations such as Hamas is informal guerrilla action. These organisations cannot be easily broken by normal military means, because as long as a defeated, subjugated and despairing population remains… they will continue to attract recruits and mount asymmetric operations, eg suicide bombers and primitive weapons, that cannot be suppressed without continuous, draconian and brutal police action.

Nor is it realistic to demand that Hamas, and only Hamas, unconditionally surrender by ceasing all military action, if Israel offers NOTHING in return. The Gazan’s are living in an open-air prison camp, totally dependent on UN aid, subject to total restrictions and control by the Israeli’s. All of the the basics, food, water, medicine, electricity are subject to Israel’s control and whim. Palestine as it was drawn up by the UN decades ago has never existed, is now reduced to a handful of miserable enclaves. Those cursed to be born into them, live with no future and no hope. These desperate, despairing people will always be Israel’s enemy.

So long as Israel continues to deny the Palestinians any hope or possibility of a better future … the hatred will fester, the violence will continue, and the options for a negotiated solution will diminish toward zero. A grim, inexorable logic inevitably (if not already) leaves only one remaining solution for Israel. To eliminate the threat altogether.. a deliberate genocide, murdering all 6 million odd Palestinians living in the region.

Obviously any sane person would hope and pray that this is a hypothetical outcome, yet the path they are on has no other destination. Ironically enough of course, if Israel does commit such a Holocaust (and no other word would be applicable).. then the very justification for Israels’ own existence would fully nullified.

Rocket attacks are pretty easy to pull off, they can be launched from anywhere and built in a basic workshop out of fertilizer, sugar and a piece of pipe.

If the aim of the attack can’t be met by the attack, then Just War Theory tells us that the war is unjust.

Other points:

re ‘Is Israel an apartheid state’: Desmond Tutu says ‘yes’.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1957644.stm

Someone asked ‘Where is the Palestinian Mandela?’ I’m confused by the question. Does it mean to suggest that the ANC were non violent (Mandela supported the 1961 decision of the ANC to move to a violent struggle), or that the Israeli’s do not hold political prisoners?

re ‘the settlements’. Israel has no right to build structures in Gaza or on the West Bank, (that includes large parts of the wall btw), without annexing the territory and granting citizenship to the inhabitants (geneva conventions). They have the options of a) being an occupier and not granting citizenship, or b) annexing and being allowed to build permanent structures.

re Hamas. Bad bastards. Duly elected government (thanks Bush and Condi!). Received early support from Israel as a counter to the PLO.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10456.htm

re the ceasefire. Gaza has been under a blockade. That’s an act of war by most definitions. Just saying.

Essentially my position is one of a pox on all their houses, but that doesn’t change the fact that one party has forced the other party to live stateless and under occupation for over a generation. This doesn’t ‘justify’ terrorism. Whatever that means. But by the same token, terrorism doesn’t ‘justify’ torture, occupation and intermittent slaughter. If Israel doesn’t give the Palestinians a state, then the Palestinians have nothing to lose from violent struggle. Actions such as the current one, can only buy a temporary respite at best, while pushing any two state solution further into the future. It aids only the extemists.

So again, How are these attacks supposed to accomplish their stated aim of preventing rocket attacks?

I suspect they won’t because they can’t. Israel knows this, they have an election coming up though and the incumbent was under pressure form the hardliners. That imlied explanation for the attack, while cynical, has the benefit over the official one of making sense.

John BT – You don’t think the Israelis are religious nuts as well?

The answer to your piece is right there, to stop the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel. I get the feeling you would like Hamas to continue them and Israel do nothing? Don’t be so stupid, a country will defend itself and take out the aggressor.

The few that were launched, none of them causing any casualties, were claimed by the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, by Islamic Jihad, by “the Badr Forces,” or by nobody. Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called repeatedly for a cessation of rocket fire, and denounced those factions who broke the truce. A Hamas spokesman criticized Fatah for allowing the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, which is affiliated with Fatah, to fire rockets. Meanwhile, Israeli occupation forces’ murders and settler pogroms continued unabated on the West Bank. They included an attempt by a settler to fire a homemade rocket toward the Palestinian village of Burin, which nearly killed another settler. During the lull, then, Israeli settlers fired more rockets (i.e., one) than did Hamas.

In a document entitled “The Hamas terror war against Israel,” The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs provides striking visual evidence of Hamas’s good faith during the lull.

Absolute bollocks! The cease fire stated in june 2008 and rockets and morter fire were continually raining down into Israel. Hamas NEVER honored the cease fire, and never will for that matter. Israel responded to the rocket attacks and nothing else. Israel want to be able to stop these attacks from happening and will do all then can to achieve this aim.

Dont get me wrong, war is bad. The death of any civillian is bad, but someone has to stop Hamas from firing at Israel!

Another point I would like to make is about the blantantly biased media in this country. When they play clips of the suffering in Gaza why do they censor them? Why can the BBC tell us that they are censored and not our news media who play the same clips? Why spare us from the true horror of Israel’s shoah inflicted upon the palestinians? When is Mike McPropaganda going to be standing on the balcony of a hotel in Jeruslaem miles away from any danger in an oversized flak jacket?

Over the past 6 years, 18 Israelis have been killed by Hamas rockets. Just last night, 40 refugees (including 7 children) were killed by the IDF. Israel’s government is not interested in peace. As a clear planned attacked, launched on a Saturday (the busiest day in Gaza), it is obvious that they disregard civilian lives, anything argued as “collateral damage” can be rejected. Most Israelis want to exchange peace for land but their government unfortunately thinks otherwise.

While I don’t support Hamas, this argument is abut humanitarianism and the gross atrocities implemented by a so-called liberal democracy. Most Isrealis that I’ve met are decent people, it’s just a shame that the right-wing dominates policy.

And yes, defence Minister Barak is a member of the Labour Party, but history shows that it makes stuff all difference who’s in power.

It’s time for a multilateral solution. The US, Israel and Iran need to grow up. Hamas, Fatah and Syria have shown signs of a willingness to negotiate and to make concessions in the past. It’s about time that they were treated as equals.