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Intro for International Organisation for a Participatory Society

Written By: - Date published: 8:51 am, April 10th, 2012 - 98 comments
Categories: activism, class war, political alternatives, Revolution, vision - Tags:

h/t Carol. Apparently some people are only seeing a blank white space where the opening frame of the vid should be. Clicking on the blank space should start the vid. Sheesh. Then it didn’t embed at all when I added the explanation! So ‘fraid you’ll just have to click the link unless some kindly sorts who knows there way around better than me can get the vid re-embedded…

[lprent: The tick is not to embed it. Just put the URL in and let wordpress embed it. It knows how to do it for most of the standard streamer locations. ]

[Bill: thank's for the fix. I'd originally simply pasted the URL and it seemed okay until I added text on the back of Carol's comment at which point it all 'crapped out'.]

98 comments on “Intro for International Organisation for a Participatory Society”

  1. just saying 1

    edit

    • Bill 1.1

      Edited the post’s title…IOPS = International Organisation for a Participatory Society

      • just saying 1.1.1

        Thanks Bill.
        Thought I might need another cup of coffee or something when I saw the new title, and thought I must have imagined the old one.

  2. This post is blank, but being categorised as “class war” and Revolution” seems curious for a topic like Participatory Society.

    The post isn’t blank on firefox and I know of no reason it would be blank in other browsers. Maybe you clicked while another poster was making unilateral editing decisions… [Bill]

  3. hellonearthis 3

    Isn’t this a copyright violation, that looks like an old Simpsons segment and in NZ we have no fair use to use it.

    There was no copyright attached to the original source, so no. Not as far as I’m aware. The original source is here [Bill]

    • hellonearthis 3.1

      After viewing it, it is clearly a theft of the Simpson IP and they have no credits to the original creators of the work. The start is a copy of the episode that Banksy did. http://news.change.org/stories/banksy-s-simpsons-opening-asks-is-slave-labor-behind-our-products

      This work maybe fair use overseas but to use it in NZ where there is no fair use is a breach of copyright and the standard opens its self to a copyright infringement down notice under new zealand law.

      The Original Source you mention bill, stole the Simpsons IP.

      It’s like the Broken Sea Audio case, where it’s legal here but illegal in the USA, only in reverses.
      http://www.sffaudio.com/?p=3146

      [lprent: What a pile of whining waffle.

      1. We have no idea of any agreement or otherwise for IPOS to use it. Nor do you.

      2. The local copyright holders can send me an e-mail. However they'd be better off sending it to vimeo since that is where we are linking to.

      3. Rather than whining here. Inform whoever you think are the local rights owners. Offhand I have zero idea who they are, and there isn't exactly an index to find out. ]

      • Mickysavage 3.1.1

        I am sure Banksie would approve.

        • hellonearthis 3.1.1.1

          And Steven Hawkins? Maybe, but the copyright holders of the Simpsons Brand “FOX”? might not.

          • sodapaper 3.1.1.1.1

            dork

            • hellonearthis 3.1.1.1.1.1

              No need to make personal attacks, play the issue not the person.
              And I was not whinning, I was just pointing out the law.
              Now I’m whinning due to the personal attacks.

              [lprent: Then don't make dumb arse comments that I have to respond to on behalf of the site. Every time that I have to expend time doing that, I consider:-

              1. How to encourage you not to waste my precious time that I could use on dealing with something important.

              2. If I should just kick you off the site so I don't have to deal with another stupid luser wasting my time.

              3. How much I personally despise people who waste my time and how I should express it this time to the jerk-off...

              Read the policy and consider that if I have to wind up responding for such moron level comments again then you will earn yourself a all expenses paid vacation from commenting here. ]

          • mickysavage 3.1.1.1.2

            Funny an Über dark stylish critique of the capitalist system and some people can only see the supposed theft of Global Corporations IP.  How funny but sad …

  4. Gosman 4

    What a surprise – A leftist organisation guilty of intellectual property theft.

    I had a look at their website and their laughable economic goals. Highlights include these gems of comedic brilliance:

    “- no individuals or groups own resources, factories, etc., so ownership doesn’t affect anyone’s decision making influence or share of income.

    – workers who work longer or harder or at more onerous conditions doing socially valued labor (including training) earn proportionately more for doing.

    – there is neither market competition nor top-down planning, but instead decentralized cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs, whether accomplished by workers and consumers councils or some other suitable method.”

    Why don’t they come out and state they are a Communist organisation – are they too embarrassed by the title?

    • r0b 4.1

      What a surprise – A leftist organisation guilty of intellectual property theft.

      Careful there Gos.

    • Bill 4.2

      A leftist organisation guilty of intellectual property theft. Proof? Or you just jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions?

      …laughable economic goals. Highlights include these gems of comedic brilliance:..

      Have you got any reasoning or argument to back up your assertion? Any intelligent criticism at all? Or are you just ‘barking to your master’s voice’ like a good little ‘Pavlov Poodle’?

      Why don’t they come out and state they are a Communist organisation…

      In a highly decentralised organisation, who do you imagine ‘they’ are Gosman? Do you imagine every member of the organisation self identifies as communist? What about those who would identify as being progressive or liberal or anarchist or any of the other number of ‘ists’, ‘ive’s’ or ‘isms’ that might reasonably indicate an adherence to or belief in democracy?

      Maybe ‘they’ (whoever ‘they’ may be) don’t state ‘they’ are a communist organisation simply because ‘they’ (the mouth pieces present in traditional organisations) don’t exist. That and the fact that the organisation isn’t communist.

      • Gosman 4.2.1

        Their economic prescriptions read like extracts from the collective works of Marx and Engels. No private property, people being paid according to their effort, worker controlled places of business, allocation of labour and resources managed via some magical mechanism not involving markets. It is all standard Communist economic theory. It ain’t new and it doesn’t work. I’m happy to get into the reasons it doesn’t work if you like.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1

          It ain’t new and it doesn’t work.

          As it’s not been tried how do you know that?

          The USSR was state capitalist and so is China, North Korea etc.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.1.1

            Cuba has aspects of worker led co-operatives. So to does Venezuela. All the places mentioned don’t believe in private property or the market mechanism for deciding allocation of resources.

            BTW what is this magical method of resource allocation DTB or haven’t you guys worked that one out yet?

            • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1.1.1

              Democracy – or is that too complex for you?

            • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1.1.2

              All the places mentioned don’t believe in private property or the market mechanism for deciding allocation of resources.

              Gosman – in total there are over 200 Russian and Chinese billionaires. So I think that “belief in private property” is alive and well in those countries.

              • Colonial Viper

                In fact according to this, China has 271 USD billionaires just by itself. Which well outnumbers the billionaires in “capitalist” market economies like Germany, Japan and India.

                Looks like China’s approach to state capitalism with a ‘Chinese Flavour’ competes against western models for wealth creation just fine, Gossie.

                Edit – link is here

                http://www.cnbc.com/id/44530244/China_s_10_Wealthiest_Billionaires

                • Gosman

                  When were these billionaires created C.V? Was it before or after the reforms introduced where private enterprise was encouraged?

        • Bill 4.2.1.2

          I’m happy to get into the reasons it doesn’t work if you like.

          Go on then.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.2.1

            It doesn’t price intellectual property for one and neither does it deal with risk.

            • Bill 4.2.1.2.1.1

              Nah. C’mon. So it doesn’t assign a price…a monetary value…to intellectual property (can’t be stolen for profit then, eh?)…And…?

              What’s this risk it doesn’t deal with? The risk of financial loss/benefit? Be more precise please.

              • Gosman

                The risk that something doesn’t pay off or the cost of something bad happening. Tell me how the system assigns a value to that? I can tell you how it is done in a free market system. It might be imperfect but at least it is inbuilt in the system.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  The risk that something doesn’t pay off or the cost of something bad happening.

                  In an actual rational socio-economic system there is no risk. Some resources will get used and, if the idea doesn’t work, recycled. Something else won’t be done as fast but that’s not really an issue – society would have been aware of that in the first place and decided to try whatever didn’t work anyway. The real important point is that nobody loses anything.

                  It might be imperfect but at least it is inbuilt in the system.

                  In fact it’s so wrong that it’s brought about anthropogenic climate change, increased poverty, and put a few people in what amounts to dictatorial control of the planet.

                  • Gosman

                    “In an actual rational socio-economic system there is no risk.”

                    Hence the failure of socialism. It can’t fully understand the concept of pricing risk.

                    That is not stating that capitalism doesn’t have problem with this either, as witnessed by the GFC.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It can’t fully understand the concept of pricing risk.

                      That’s not an argument against the simple fact that I said that society would be making the decision with full information. They’d know exactly what the cost would be in real terms. The real economy is a zero sum game – if society decides to do something then they won’t be able to do something else.

                      There would be no risk because there would be no loss. The physical resources would still be there.

              • Gosman

                As for intellectual property, I presume you acknowledge that ideas can also be valuable or do you not place any degree of benefit on these?

                • Colonial Viper

                  An idea has nearly zero value until it is implemented. Implementations have value. Not ideas.

                  • Gosman

                    Wrong. Ideas have value when people are willing to pay for them. The fact you can’t understand that is why you are stuck in failed leftist economic thinking.

                    • felix

                      Interesting idea.

                      Does that mean that the more money someone is willing to pay, the better the idea?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sure, the idea Time Warner had to acquire AOL for multi-billions was by Gossie’s thinking, one of the best ideas in the history of man.

                    • rosy

                      I use some number 8 wire to replace/fix something. It works for me, but only under my unique circumstances. It’s my idea, my implementation and no-one would be willing to pay for it. Does my idea have value?

                    • Gosman

                      Felix, no it doesn’t.

                      Take my example of homeopathic medicine. Just because people value the idea doesn’t make it useful.

                    • felix

                      Then what use is your definition of value if it doesn’t relate to the… err… value of the idea?

                    • Gosman

                      See Adele’s resonse to the homeopathic question below. She acknowledges that homeopathy is a billion dollar industry. Do you disagree that this is it’s economic value?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paying for something doesn’t mean it has human value. And vice versa. (Not talking specifically about homeopathy, mind you).

                    • Gosman

                      I’ve already stated Iam meaning economic value her. Not social/moral value. Those are far harder to define.

                      You might want to base a society on pricing based on those ideas. Good luck to you. How would you define the value of homeopathy then?

                    • felix

                      I disagree that the fact that idiots pay billions of dollars for tiny bottles of water means that tiny bottles of water have any intrinsic value over and above the intrinsic value of what they actually are.

                    • felix

                      “How would you define the value of homeopathy then?”

                      Scientifically of course.

                    • Gosman

                      I’m not talking about intrinsic value. I’m discussing economic value.

                    • felix

                      I know. But what use is your measure of “economic value” if it’s unrelated to the actual, you know, real intrinsic value?

                      I mean what actual use?

                  • Gosman

                    This goes to the heart of the matter though. If a single pill saved a persons life how doi you value that? I mean how much is a person’s life worth? It is entirely subjective. Some would argue it is priceless. But then you get into problems of whether an old person’t life is worth more or less than a young persons life then.

                • Adele

                  Gosman

                  Ideas are only valuable when they are commodified – it’s relatively easy to have a good idea but try making it happen as a success story – i.e. lots of people want to buy the end product.

                  Also, I think if we can survive this current stream of conciousness than in all probability a participatory society will become a reality of the future.

                  It only requires people to act with integrity towards each other. Communism didn’t work because people in influential positions were corrupt. Capitalism is not working because people in influential positions are corrupt.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Ideas are strange things – the more they’re shared the more valuable they become, The more they’re restricted the less valuable and when shared the person with the original idea hasn’t lost.

                  • Adele

                    With all due respect, Draco

                    It sounds like you’ve watched too many chick flicks.

                    Ideas aren’t meant to be simply shared around like feelgood popcorn. They only become meaningful when put into practise. What I dislike most about ‘ideas’ folk is that they usually expect others to realise their dreams for them. An idea worth sharing is an idea worth doing – yourself.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Sharing ideas sparks more ideas from others who have different knowledge.

                  • Gosman

                    Wrong. Ideas have value dependent on what people are willing to pay for them not on how much they are shared. But thanks for illustrating the problem leftists have with intellectual property.

                    • McFlock

                      Wrong.
                      I’d probably go so far as to say that it’s not actually possible to purchase just an idea. All transactions involve implementations of the idea. Even books. There might be an exception, but I can’t think of it at the moment.
                       

                    • Gosman

                      I can inform you of an idea McFlock and you can pay me for that. You don’t have to implement my idea. You still have essentially valued that idea at the point you paid me to tell you though.

                    • McFlock

                      Okay, consultancy. Interesting thought.
                           
                      Tell me, if every idea you informed me of was never implemented, how long do you think I’d keep paying you? The supposed value to me of your idea is actually the projected value of any implementation of that idea.
                       

                    • Gosman

                      I presume that if you don’t implement my ideas and get some benefit from them at some stage you will stop paying me. However the value of my idea is still based on how much you paid me for them not the benefit you gained from doing so.

                    • Adele

                      Gosman

                      What fool would pay you for an idea only? If somebody has sufficient money to simply throw out on ‘owning an idea’ they obviously have inherited wealth and deserve to lose every penny of it.

                    • McFlock

                      Nope.
                      If you sell horse shit labelled as gold dust, it’s still horse shit.
                            
                      You haven’t demonstrated the value of your ideas, just the gullibility of your clients in believing implementations of your ideas will produce value.

                    • Gosman

                      This just serves to illustrate why the thinking promoted by that group can’t grasp concepts such as pricing the values of ideas.

                      Let me put it in real world terms for you. What is the economic value of Homeopathic medicine?

                    • McFlock

                      or your idiotic belief that something which does nothing, produces nothing, has no form, substance, colour or smell, has value simply because someone can be conned into believing it will do any or all of the above.
                            
                      Pretty screwed up, dude.

                    • Gosman

                      No, I wouldn’t pay for homeopathy myself because I agree with you that it is horseshit. However it does have economic value because the idea has been ‘bought’ by gullible people. Essentially they are only purchasing water but it has more value to them because they think it is doing something and they are willing to pay more than for non-homeopathic water. It is essentiallly the idea they are paying for.

                    • Adele

                      Gosman

                      Homeopathic medicine is a billion dollar industry in the USA. Its been in practise in various forms for a very long time. So what is the point, again?

                    • Gosman

                      You have illustrated my point perfectly Adele. Thank you for that. It has an economic value.

                      Now please ask McFlock whether he believes it has an economic value.

                    • Adele

                      Gosman

                      Selling homeopathy is not selling an idea of wellness.

                      There are approximately 6000-7000 adverse drug reactions reported each year in this country – with a large number resulting in death. So far, no deaths have been reported for homeopathic remedies.

                      Obviously, what is being purchased is ‘holy’ water.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      Okay, let’s look at it from another angle.
                             
                      You are a consultant with an idea. All your prospective clients know that the idea will never be implemented in any way whatsoever, even as vaporware. It won’t boost productivity or improve health or wellbeing, or do anything else. It is an idea that will never be implemented in the real world. Everybody knows this. Perfect information about the economic value of your idea, throughout the world.
                          
                      So tell me: who would give you money in exchange for this idea?
                       
                      My suggested answer is “nobody”. And if nobody pays for it, by your measure the idea is without economic value.

                       
                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Ideas have value dependent on what people are willing to pay for them…

                      Money is a delusion.

                    • rosy

                      Exactly McFlock, Gosman seems to me to be conflating the economic value of an idea with the traded value.

                    • Gosman

                      How do you measure the economic value of something then rosy?

                      What is the economic value of Homeopathic remedies?

                    • rosy

                      Dunno Gos, what’s the economic value of an idea like Unix, Gnu, Wikipedia compared to the economic value of say, an iPhone? I know the first three don’t have a traded value, but the last does, so I certainly wouldn’t value it at the price someone is willing to pay.

                      What’s the economic value of homeopathy? In money terms the (company profit + the placebo effect that saves medical costs) minus (the extra cost to the health system of delayed care for serious illness)

                    • McFlock

                      Gosman, I think you might have missed my question.
                             
                      If you had an idea that everybody from the outset knew for certain would never have any implementation whatsoever, who would pay for it?

                    • Gosman

                      “Perfect information about the economic value of your idea, throughout the world.”

                      And therein lies your problem. You will never get this because no two people think exactly the same about something.

                      I find it interesting that libertarian ideas are dismissed as pie in the sky stuff by many here yet you seem to believe in this fantasy land version of reality.

                      Now go back to Homeopathy McFlock. Does it have economic value?

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, it was a demonstration that the idea itself has no value – any monetary transactions are based around the probability that the implementation of that idea will produce value x.
                                  
                      Let’s, for the sake of debate, assume that homeopathic medicine doesn’t work. So the world has two sets of folk in it, those who think (in error) that it does work, and those who think it doesn’t work and might delay treatment (a la Steve Jobs). 
                           
                      Obviously, those people who think homeopathic medicine does work will pay for treatments based on the health outcome they think they’ll receive. I.e. the outcome of its implementation.
                           
                      What about the other group? Why would they purchase an idea that would not be implemented on the grounds that they believe it would, if anything, cause harm through inaction?
                                  
                      Now let’s assume homeopathic medicine does work. Believers will still pay money on the expected value of treatment, not on the idea. Non-believers will still not bother purchasing an idea that they believe will not help when implemented.

                      So it’s not the idea of homeopathic medicine that has value – it’s the expected value of outcomes from the implementation of the idea of homeopathic treatments.
                                

                    • Gosman

                      But both you and I know that Homeopathic remedies are no better than a placebo , i.e. the user might as well drink tap water rather than pay for the remedy.

                      So following your logic the homeopathic remedies have an economic value of zero. Yet this flies in the face of the fact that it is a billion dollar industry employing thousands of people around the world.

                      Your convoluted logic about the value of ideas falls down in this matter. It isn’t the outcome or even expected outcome that had the value. That value is up front when the transaction takes place.

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, it’s not “convoluted”, it’s pretty bloody simple.
                           
                      And whether or not homeopathic treatments actually work is irrelevant to the price people are prepared to pay for the implementation of the “remedy”. The people who believe they work  will pay (a lot). The people who don’t believe they work will not pay anything. So they’re not buying the “idea”, they’re buying the implementation of the idea based on what they believe the value of the implementation is, and the probability of it working.
                              
                      Hell, you’ve been commenting in this thread that socialists have no idea how to price risk, but you are having exactly the same difficulty of which you accuse others: you are failing (refusing?) to understand that the price people will pay for a medical treatment is a function of the reward from successful treatment and the risk that it will not work.

                    • Gosman

                      Whatever function is used to determining the price someone is willing to pay for something is irrelevant in working out it’s economic value. This is purely the price that someone is willing to sell an item and someone is willing to purchase it. You over complicate matters by presupposing the value is derived from anything other than this simple concept.

                    • Gosman

                      Let’s take it back to the consultancy idea. The economic value in the consultancy is not in the amount it might save a firm if they implemented the idea, although it does play a part in reaching it’s economic value. It’s value is simply in the amount that the person with the idea is willing to pass the information to another person and that other person is willing to pay for that idea so long as they are the at least the same. If I have an idea that I think can save you 1 million currency units per year and I am willing to sell you that idea for 250,000 currency units but you are only willing to pay 100,000, if I don’t lower my expectation of how much my idea is worth the idea has no economic value.

                    • McFlock

                      Gos, CV’s original statement was “An idea has nearly zero value until it  is implemented. Implementations have value. Not ideas.”
                             
                             
                      You have an idea that you think will save 1 million currency units per annum. Fair enough. If I know I could never implement that idea, why would I pay a single currency unit, let alone 100,000? I wouldn’t. Assuming ideas are tradeable commodities (big assumption, on the grounds that one can’t really do due diligence without a transfer of the idea), any value comes from its implementation. What I’d really be purchasing is not the idea, but the probability of a successful implementation of that idea.

                    • Gosman

                      And I’m telling you the implementation of an idea doesn’t determinie it’s economic value. That was done at the point of the transaction when the idea was passed from one person to another and some form of economic value was transferred back. Ideas might even make a loss, (and often do). The value is not dependent on them being implemented. All that means is the economic value of the idea on being passed on to someone else is likely to have fallen significantly (But not necessarily). This is what the hard leftist thinking at the heart of this debate cannot not grasp. Neither can you it seems.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      And I’m telling you the implementation of an idea doesn’t determinie it’s economic value. That was done at the point of the transaction when the idea was passed from one person to another and some form of economic value was transferred back.

                          
                      Fuck sake this is getting circular, but I think you’re almost there. At the point of transaction, where does that value come from? Why is one idea “worth” a million dollars, but another idea is “worth” nothing”? Why would anyone pay money for idea A but laugh if you asked for money for idea B?
                          
                      The answer is easy. Take your time.
                       
                       

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Wow so many BS statements in so few words, amazing.

                    Ideas have value dependent on what people are willing to pay for them

                    Usual shite from you i.e. the value of life is measured by the price you can fetch for it.

                    • Gosman

                      The trouble you have C.V is you seeemingly believe there is some innate economic value in something regardless of a transaction taking place. There may very well be some social or moral value in it but there isn’t an economic one until that transaction takes place.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You say that because you only consider the financialised aspects of economics, not the broader category of real-physical-world economics.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      As an example. I keep a spare 10L container of diesel in the back of my vehicle. It sits there. I haven’t used it in months. No transactions have been taking place around it. But its presence there could easily save my life (or someone elses) at some stage over this winter.

                      That’s pretty fucking economic IMO.

                    • Gosman

                      You are essentially pricing risk there C.V. Congrats on taking some steps in that direction.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And what is the price associated with that risk, pray tell?

                    • Gosman

                      You’ve already answered that question.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What is it then? What is the transactional price you are referring to?

                      And is the pricing of that risk transaction objective or subjective?

                    • Gosman

                      It’s the price of putting the 10 litres of diesal in the back of your vehicle.

                      How many other people do you know do the same C.V?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So the pricing of the risk is simply $15 then?

                      And is that pricing subjective or objective?

                      Lots of people I know carry spare fuel in their vehicles.

                    • Gosman

                      What a silly question. Is the price objective or subjective? Is the $15 you spent on the putting the diesel in the back of your car objective or subjective?

                      I presume you know some people you know don’t keep petrol in the back of their vehicles. If not you seem to keep a rather select group of friends and aquaintences.

                      I for one don’t keep any petrol in the back of my vehicle. This is because I don’t price the risk of my running out of fuel outside the walking distance of a service station as great as you do.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So pricing in orthodox economics can be largely subjective then?

      • Gosman 4.2.2

        By the way my intellectual property comment was satirical. That stated I suspect strongly that this hasn’t been paid for by the organisation simply because it is so poorly produced and I doubt very much Fox would allow their intellectual property to be b@stardised so poorly for political purposes. That stated they might have enjoyed taking money off these hard leftist wackos.

  5. Uturn 5

    Oh for fucksake drossman, this page of gobshite from you proves you haven’t read any of Marx and Engel’s work. Starting with your claim that Cuba is a working model of communism/socialism and continuing right through to your confusion over values of ideas.

    Let me spell it out for you:

    Capitalism accumulates labour, ideas, resources and money – anything you like. It takes those public resources and places them under individual control – to date, in a purely arbitrary manner, through culture.

    As someone up the page said, if, under a socialist model that works, a collective chooses not to do something, the resource is still there, intact, for a future point. It’s “energy” remains exactly as it was when you first imagined it – actually increasing in “value”, as man develops to understand and match its potential.

    I await your recollection of the method you used to concieve and birth yourself, feed yourself when you couldn’t even open your eyes, exist in a relatively safe community, receive an education, medicate yourself with the knowledge of a doctor at age when you could hardly understand your own bodily functions, among other things, and reach the age you are now. Your entire entity does not live in a self-created vacuum, because despite your infantilism, you are not centre of the universe and haven’t been since you were a toddler, which is where your ability to think and experience the world seems to have stalled. When you have examined even the basic s of how indivduals fit into the greater context, come back and wow us. Until then, you remain, the ever dreary, drossman.

  6. captain hook 6

    grossman thinks capitalism means he can have a dog to foul the streets with and a hardly davidson to assault our eardrums with.
    thats what choice is for noo noo heads.
    and redlogix I am not drunk.
    I just care for the world and not the aquisition of goods and brownie points.
    ok?

    • Bill 7.1

      That critique would appear to come from a perspective that applies contemporary psychological reactions and approaches to work, ie responses informed by Capitalist relations and command economy relations to a different economic model without taking into account the likely or possible psychological affects of that new environment.

      From the experience of a worker…me… (something the author seems to put great store by), the shirking and the over rating of peoples’ effort and sacrifice in the work environment simply doesn’t occur in an environment with paraconish attributes. Peer pressure is a very powerful tool and besides, why would the behaviour of ‘underdogs’ or wage slaves or the disenfranchised continue to manifest itself unaltered in a new set up where those heirarchies that contribute to assymetries of power have been levelled?

      On the wage question, I agree to a point. But then, just because people are receiving money for work, that doesn’t mean the system that is used today hasn’t been abolished. If wages are paid according to different criteria than today, then can’t we say the wage system has been abolished? And is there any reason why workers would need to pay themselves wages if they didn’t want to?

      Even under capitalism it is possible for workers to set up businesses where no wages are paid at all; where the income generated by the business, which is under the direct control of the workers, is used by the workers to provide for themselves collectively and individually without any of the workers being income earners.

  7. Malcolm 9

    “Communism is about reducing effort and sacrifice not raising them to fundamental principles as a sort of secular protestant work ethic. Remuneration for effort and sacrifice is based on the same assumptions of human behaviour as neoclassical economics (that as price reaches 0, demand increases exponentially), which are demonstrably false (there are some interesting anthropological studies to this effect, as well as the everyday experience that if tea and coffee is free at work we don’t all overdose on caffeine, or all become hypochondriacs when there’s free universal healthcare etc).”

    • Bill 9.1

      Paracon is simply about recognising effort and sacrifice, not placing such things on a pedestal. Look at this way. Maintaining the sewerage system isn’t something people want to do if they have options for better, more enjoyable productive activities. Way I see it there are limited options for getting that shit system maintained.

      1. Have an economic system that results in some people eventually having no other choice but to perform those ‘crappy’ jobs if they want to put food on their table.

      2. Have compulsion…like in Command Economies where you are simply told what you’re going to be doing by your political masters.

      3. Reward the performing of that task better than other more comfortable tasks. (Incentivise)

      4. Have no wages paid, but a self managed system whereby everyone undertakes to perform a given amount of the ‘crappy’ stuff.

      5. A mix of 3 and 4….a workers self managed balanced job complex…where wages may or may not be paid according to the preferences of that particular set of workers

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    ...
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    The Daily Blog | 01-10
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    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, the election result...
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    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • A brief word on reinvading Iraq
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • When the media say they covered Dirty Politics – did they?
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – I will be the new Labour Leader!
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Pat O’Dea – A Prescient Post
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – W(h)ither Labour (!/?)
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    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • At the end of the day…
    At the end of the day…...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Cynicism towards Key’s sudden desire to help children in poverty
    Cynicism towards Key’s sudden desire to help children in poverty...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Internet MANA the election and the media
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    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Rachel Jones – A superficial discourse analysis of a superfic...
    On Sunday there was a story about Paddy Gower and his detached retina in the Herald on Sunday. Really? I hear you ask. Really? Yes, really. Pam Corkery will have sprayed toast crumbs over her dressing gown. The reporter has become...
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  • Terrorising Australia’s Muslim population
    We should be suspicious when 800 police conduct “terror” raids across Australia, but only one person is charged with a relevant terrorism offence (of which we know few details). We should be suspicious of the lurid tales of terrorists planning...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Another Labour leader has resigned and as per usual, the media lost its min...
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    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Anjum Rahman – Loyalty, Leadership and the Labour Party
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • A Study in Party Stability
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • Cunliffe vs Robertson – Round 2
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • The tasks before the left and labour movement
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • From Fiji’s dictatorship to ‘democracy’ – the AUT student team on t...
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • David Cunliffe Resigns As Labour Leader – Forces Robertson Out of the Bel...
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • Deep thought vs Deep prejudice
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    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • The NZ National voters elected
    The NZ National voters elected...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – The post election postmortem is giving me post p...
    I feel the need to contribute to the discourse. This is a new experience for me. Not having an opinion, but expressing it on a popular forum in a public sphere. That’s why I have waited till now and put...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • A dictionary of education terms and definitions, brought to you by the let...
    Free to all TDB readers, please enjoy your very own cut-out-and-keep handy primer of terms that I predict you will need to know over the next three years… Achievement Gap (noun) Synonym for wealth gap. ACT (abstract noun) Intangible. Reported to exist in...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • A Mines Rescue brigadesman’s perspective on the Pike River Mine
    My husband and I lived in Greymouth in 2010, we were a coal mining family.  The day Pike River Mine blew up and the days following changed us profoundly, as it did for so many.  This is a Mines Rescue...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • The Left Triumphant! A Counterfactual History of the Last Twelve Months.
    DID IT REALLY HAVE TO END LIKE THIS? Reading through the commentary threads of the left-wing blogs it is impossible to not feel the anger; the sense of betrayal; the impression of having had something vital ripped from their grasp;...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • GUEST BLOG – Myles Thomas: The media won it!
    Make no mistake, John Key is a clever communicator – reasonable, authoritative and relaxed – but without the media he wouldn’t be PM. Depending on your viewpoint, New Zealand’s news media are either a bunch of Grey Lynn lefties or...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • Not Learning Lessons Past: the West’s Response to IS
    In an earlier posting Ukraine, United Kingdom, Ireland, Scotland, I noted that the first lesson of conflict learned by Robert McNamara was “understand your adversary”. If we have honourable objectives, our first and most important weapon is empathy. In the Vietnam War,...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Dr Jarrod Gilbert – Proof of David Farrar’s deception: my ...
    In the lead up to the election the Minister of Corrections Anne Tolley launched a gang policy. In order to justify the government’s approach she used gang figures that overstated the gang problem. Not by a little bit, but a...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • SPECIAL FEATURE: Stuart Nash – Red To The Rescue?
    SPECIAL FEATURE by Selwyn Manning. IF THE ELECTION RESULT which was dished out to Labour was not enough to incite an immediate leadership primary, then the caucus’ refusal to recognise David Cunliffe as the leader should cement it. Now is...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • Has the one party state crackdown begun already? Left wing NZ activist grou...
    Well known left wing activist social media group, ‘John Key Has Left Down NZ’ has been shut down on Facebook. At 11.40pm last night, Facebook, without any warning shut the group down siting a breach of terms of service as...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • Why Cunliffe should probably just let Nash & Robertson win
    We have to face some very unpalatable home truths. If you are a left wing political person, best you put your vote now to the Green Party, although you’ll have to do that all the while the Greens frantically tell you...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • The graceless win of Kelvin Davis
    The graceless win of Cameron Slater’s mate in the North, Kelvin Davis is difficult to swallow. Here Cameron Slater’s mate in the North is shitting on Hone Harawira by calling Hone all steam, no hangi as Kelvin rubs his ganged up win into...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • So Labour shifted too far to the left?
    So Labour shifted too far to the left?   Here’s the ill-judged view of Josie Pagani in the Pundit “Labour must change”: “At the last election I made myself a heretic when I wrote a column mentioning how unpopular the...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • Uncomplicated Loyalties: Why Cunliffe and the Labour Left Cannot Win
    THE STORY of David Cunliffe’s leadership of the Labour Party has been one of missed opportunities and unforced errors. That he was the only choice available to those who wanted to rid the Labour Party of its neoliberal cuckoos is...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • So we can expect this now?
    So we can expect this now?...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Can Labour be saved? Why Whaleoil & National won and why we need a new ...
    As the shock of my optimism that NZers would recoil from the real John Key as exposed by Dirty Politics and mass surveillance duplicities wears off, I am surprised to find that the right in NZ are not content with...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Three more years (up shit creek and paddling hard)
    “If the future is not green, there is no future. If the future is not you, there is no future”. Emma Thompson’s stirring words to the climate marchers in London last Sunday are worth considering in the aftermath of the...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • One Party State
    In years to come this election will be seen as a historic turning point towards one party rule. I don`t mean this literally, absolute single party dictatorship is not in prospect. In the New Zealand context though, one party has...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • No More. The Left Falls.
    . We cannot be beaten down Because we are down already. We can only rise up and if you should beat us down, We will rise again. And again. And again… And when you tire of beating us down, We...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Hang tight everyone – Marama Davidson campaign reflection
    To the many people who had expressed their overwhelming support for me to enter Parliament this election – thank you. That the Greens held steady in a big loss for progressive politics is an achievement. We are hopeful that after...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • Speaker leads delegation to CPA Conference
    Strengthening New Zealand’s ties with parliaments from across the world will be the focus of the upcoming delegation to the 60th Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Conference in Yaoundé, Cameroon from 4-10 October and the 131st Inter-Parliamentary...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Response to Russell Brown and Tertiary Education Union
    The allegation that I have worked with others to discredit public health efforts is wrong. My public comments in relation to public health researchers have been where academics have mislead the public about official support or endorsement, and where...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • 17 jobs lost as Bridon/Cookes reaches the end of its rope
    Seventeen workers at the iconic Bridon/Cookes wire rope company in Auckland are to be made redundant as the company ceases production in New Zealand. The company has blamed the high New Zealand dollar for making it uncompetitive to keep the...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Slip in University Rankings – Funding Not the Problem
    Responding to the slippage of New Zealand universities' rankings , Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says:...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Time to rethink police chases, says safety campaigner
    Police chases are dangerous and generally unnecessary, says the American Federal Bureau of Investigation....
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Robertson now expected to be Labour leader by Xmas
    Grant Robertson is now overwhelmingly picked to become the next leader of the Labour Party by the end of the year, according to the combined wisdom of the 8000+ registered traders on New Zealand’s predictions market, iPredict. Another potential Labour...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Documenting historic Māori land law cases for the first time
    A new book from Victoria University of Wellington’s Faculty of Law will continue to put the spotlight on Māori Land Law judgments which have never before been published....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • ‘Oily’ people greet Petroleum Summit diners
    Greenpeace activists smeared in fake oil have greeted guests arriving at the part-Statoil sponsored Petroleum Summit dinner this evening....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Key Decisions Made About Labour’s Leadership Election
    Labour’s New Zealand Council has made the key decisions about the timetable and process around the election of Labour’s Party Leader. The result will be announced on Tuesday 18th November, following a comprehensive and extensive process unique...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Suspected $6 Million Dollar Wananga Fraud Alarming
    The Taxpayers’ Union is calling on on the Te Whare Wananga o Awanuiarangi to front up over claims the Wananga has pocketed government overpayments amounting to $6 million of taxpayers' money. Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Submissions sought on herbicide for weed control in maize
    The Environmental Protection Authority is calling for submissions on a herbicide to improve broadleaf weed control in maize. The substance CADET contains 100g fluthiacet-methyl in the form of an emulsifiable concentrate and would contain a new active ingredient...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Jesse Mulligan Lives Below Poverty Line
    Jesse Mulligan Lives Below Poverty Line TV personality Jesse Mulligan will live on the equivalent of the extreme poverty line this October in order to raise awareness of sex trafficking. Mulligan will survive on $2.25 for his food from October...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Narratives from the 2014 Election: What do we learn?
    Narratives from the 2014 Election: What do we learn? - Sue Bradford, Russell Brown & Kirk Serpes discuss....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Voices from Oceania to speak out on climate change
    Voices from Oceania to speak out on climate change at launch of Pacific environment report...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Changes to Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre messages
    The Ministry of Civil Defence & Emergency Management advises that while changes to Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre messages come into effect from today (Wednesday 1 October), the Ministry has been, and remains, the authoritative voice for tsunami...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Police remove banner at Statoil Offices in Wellington
    Oil Free Wellington hung a banner at 9:30 this morning at the Statoil office headquarters in Wellington as the Petroleum Summit opened in Auckland. The banner, which read 'Statoil out of Northland: Stop Deep Sea Oil', has now been removed...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Mixed massages raise concerns
    Mixed massages raise concerns for Te Taumata Kaumatua Ngapuhi nui tonu, and Te Wakaminenga O nga Hapu Ngapuhi....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Union Slams Port Boss’s Pay Rise
    The Rail and Maritime Transport Union (RMTU) says Lyttelton Port CEO Peter Davie’s 18% wage rise, taking his pay packet to $1.24m, is unjustified and inflammatory. ‘Lyttelton port has an appalling health and safety record, with three deaths on...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Prisons expert Ron Nikkel to speak in Auckland October 15
    Prison Fellowship NZ and JustSpeak have the privilege of hosting the former president of Prison Fellowship International, Ron Nikkel....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Hundreds of educators protest IES in Rotorua
    Four hundred educators from around the country took their opposition to the Government's controversial Investing in Educational Success policy to the public today....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Crime drops by 3.2 % in the 2013 / 2014 financial year
    Criminal offences dropped by 3.2 % in the last financial year according to figures released today through Statistics New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Narratives from the 2014 Election: what do we learn?
    I would like to invite you to a Fabians Reflection on "Dirty Politics, Dotcom and Labour’s worst result" with Colin James, Keith Ng, Stephanie Rodgers and Richard Harman. They will provide a debrief of analysis and lessons from the 2014...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Oil Free Wellington drops banner from Statoil headquarters
    Today members of Oil Free Wellington have targeted the offices of Statoil, by attaching a banner reading 'Statoil out of Northland: Stop Deep Sea Oil' to the entrance of Vodafone on the Quay Midland Park, where Statoil's New Zealand office...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Media Statement from Karen Price
    “After a period of intense media attention and scrutiny of our family, I set up and used an anonymous Twitter account over the weekend and made a number of comments that I deeply regret....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Greenpeace disrupts Simon Bridges’ speech to oil industry
    Greenpeace activists have disrupted the opening speech by Energy and Resources Minister Simon Bridges at the Petroleum Summit in Auckland this morning....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • New Zealand Red Cross Responds to Drought in Tonga
    New Zealand Red Cross has sent an aid worker and two desalination units, to turn seawater into safe drinking water in the drought-hit Ha’apai islands of Tonga....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Can you ever tell if an email is real or forged?
    Computer industry veteran Brian Eardley-Wilmot warns that we should never take claims about stolen emails at face value....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • NZ MPs to attend the ASPG Annual Conference in Sydney
    New Zealand MPs to attend the Australasian Study of Parliament Group Annual Conference in Sydney...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Independent Maori seats still needed in Parliament
    “He’s got to be joking!” is the reaction of the president of the Maori Party, Rangimarie Naida Glavish to a call by a former Labour Minister of Maori Affairs, Dover Samuels, for debate by Maori on whether the Maori electorates...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Support for Democratic Rights in Hong Kong
    Rallies supporting the rights for universal suffrage will take place all over New Zealand today and tomorrow...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Trout Mass-Poisoned in New Zealand
    Trout Mass-Poisoned in New Zealand The Graf Boys New Zealand has some of the best trout fishing in the world! Every year thousands of international visitors wade pristine rivers in search of the freshwater game fish....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • New Zealand’s 2014 Hottest Vegetarians Crowned
    With winter gone things are heating up, and things just got even hotter with the crowning of New Zealand’s hottest vegetarians, says animal advocacy group SAFE. Marking World Vegetarian Day, 1st October, director James Napier Robertson and actor...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • A day to remember our duty to look after our senior citizens
    Human Rights Commissioner Dr Jackie Blue says International Day of the Older Person (1 October) is a United Nations day to celebrate our senior citizens, but also acknowledge the need to protect our kaumatua, or older people from abuse and...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Clear data needed on impact of benefit sanctions on children
    A lack of data on benefit sanctions means there is no way of knowing whether welfare reform is helping or harming children, says Child Poverty Action Group....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • The socialist alternative to austerity and war
    Public meeting: After the New Zealand election—the socialist alternative to austerity and war By Tom Peters 29 September 2014...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • New recruits to boost border protection
    Twenty six new recruits began an intensive nine-week training course in Auckland today that will see them graduate as Customs officers in time for the busy summer season....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Dwindling Mallard population shows up ‘pest’ myth
    The pro hunting organisation Fish & Game is researching the causes of the decline of the mallard duck population, upset at the prospect of fewer ducks to kill....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Support for Democratic Rights in Hong Kong
    New Zealanders in Auckland will gather on Wednesday to support the rights for universal suffrage in Hong Kong....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Campbell Live Exclusive Interview with David Cunliffe
    David Cunliffe resigned as leader of the Labour party on Saturday; but he still wants the top job....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Action needed on cycling safety
    “Clearly we aren't doing enough to protect the 1.5 million New Zealanders who ride bikes,” said Mr Morgan....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • World Rivers Day Passes Without A Whimper
    Sunday 28 September was World Rivers Day to celebrate clean, flowing rivers and caring about them. But a recreation-conservation advocacy the Council of Outdoor Recreation Associations of NZ (CORANZ) says the day seems to have slipped by without...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • The Kiwifruit Claim: Q&A
    1. Who is running The Kiwifruit Claim? The Kiwifruit Claim was founded by kiwifruit growers representing well in excess of 10% of the industry. 2. Why are you running this claim? The introduction of Psa into New Zealand had devastating...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Fed Farmers Need to Be Weaned
    The Taxpayers’ Union is calling on Federated Farmers to make a firm commitment to reject any future Government funding, after it was revealed that the lobby group had received over $200,000 of payments in recent years....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Children paying the price for charter school stitch up
    New Zealand children will be paying a high price for a one-seat deal between ACT and National, with an expansion of the beleaguered charter school system says education union NZEI Te Riu Roa....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Hikoi From North Reaches Oil Conference Tomorrow
    Today: The Hikoi opposing Statoil plans for seismic testing and deep sea oil drilling has marched through Dargaville and later be welcomed to Piringatahi Marae, West Harbour,Tamaki Makaurau/Auckland....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Communities Still Count
    The efforts of many organisations to influence the electorate and the political parties they voted for in the lead up to the 2014 Election is over. The voting public has spoken and provided a strong endorsement to the centre-right National...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Eleven social enterprises get ready to take off
    Eleven teams from across the country will take part in the Launchpad, Ākina’s programme to get social enterprise ideas off the ground....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • An open letter to the Prime Minister
    in which Transparency International New Zealand asks the Prime Minister to ensure integrity underpins all work he leads "in the best interests of all New Zealanders"...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Paula Bennett ‘great work’ acknowledged – McVicar
    “Paula Bennett, as Minister of Social Development, has contributed significantly in lowering our crime rate and preventing further victims.” - McVicar...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Key’s Restraint in Propping up ACT Welcomed
    The Taxpayers’ Union is welcoming the announcement that ACT MP David Seymour will not be appointed as a Minister....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
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