web analytics
The Standard

Intro for International Organisation for a Participatory Society

Written By: - Date published: 8:51 am, April 10th, 2012 - 98 comments
Categories: activism, class war, political alternatives, Revolution, vision - Tags:

h/t Carol. Apparently some people are only seeing a blank white space where the opening frame of the vid should be. Clicking on the blank space should start the vid. Sheesh. Then it didn’t embed at all when I added the explanation! So ‘fraid you’ll just have to click the link unless some kindly sorts who knows there way around better than me can get the vid re-embedded…

[lprent: The tick is not to embed it. Just put the URL in and let wordpress embed it. It knows how to do it for most of the standard streamer locations. ]

[Bill: thank’s for the fix. I’d originally simply pasted the URL and it seemed okay until I added text on the back of Carol’s comment at which point it all ‘crapped out’.]

98 comments on “Intro for International Organisation for a Participatory Society”

  1. just saying 1

    edit

    • Bill 1.1

      Edited the post’s title…IOPS = International Organisation for a Participatory Society

      • just saying 1.1.1

        Thanks Bill.
        Thought I might need another cup of coffee or something when I saw the new title, and thought I must have imagined the old one.

  2. This post is blank, but being categorised as “class war” and Revolution” seems curious for a topic like Participatory Society.

    The post isn’t blank on firefox and I know of no reason it would be blank in other browsers. Maybe you clicked while another poster was making unilateral editing decisions… [Bill]

  3. hellonearthis 3

    Isn’t this a copyright violation, that looks like an old Simpsons segment and in NZ we have no fair use to use it.

    There was no copyright attached to the original source, so no. Not as far as I’m aware. The original source is here [Bill]

    • hellonearthis 3.1

      After viewing it, it is clearly a theft of the Simpson IP and they have no credits to the original creators of the work. The start is a copy of the episode that Banksy did. http://news.change.org/stories/banksy-s-simpsons-opening-asks-is-slave-labor-behind-our-products

      This work maybe fair use overseas but to use it in NZ where there is no fair use is a breach of copyright and the standard opens its self to a copyright infringement down notice under new zealand law.

      The Original Source you mention bill, stole the Simpsons IP.

      It’s like the Broken Sea Audio case, where it’s legal here but illegal in the USA, only in reverses.
      http://www.sffaudio.com/?p=3146

      [lprent: What a pile of whining waffle.

      1. We have no idea of any agreement or otherwise for IPOS to use it. Nor do you.

      2. The local copyright holders can send me an e-mail. However they’d be better off sending it to vimeo since that is where we are linking to.

      3. Rather than whining here. Inform whoever you think are the local rights owners. Offhand I have zero idea who they are, and there isn’t exactly an index to find out. ]

      • Mickysavage 3.1.1

        I am sure Banksie would approve.

        • hellonearthis 3.1.1.1

          And Steven Hawkins? Maybe, but the copyright holders of the Simpsons Brand “FOX”? might not.

          • sodapaper 3.1.1.1.1

            dork

            • hellonearthis 3.1.1.1.1.1

              No need to make personal attacks, play the issue not the person.
              And I was not whinning, I was just pointing out the law.
              Now I’m whinning due to the personal attacks.

              [lprent: Then don’t make dumb arse comments that I have to respond to on behalf of the site. Every time that I have to expend time doing that, I consider:-

              1. How to encourage you not to waste my precious time that I could use on dealing with something important.

              2. If I should just kick you off the site so I don’t have to deal with another stupid luser wasting my time.

              3. How much I personally despise people who waste my time and how I should express it this time to the jerk-off…

              Read the policy and consider that if I have to wind up responding for such moron level comments again then you will earn yourself a all expenses paid vacation from commenting here. ]

          • mickysavage 3.1.1.1.2

            Funny an Über dark stylish critique of the capitalist system and some people can only see the supposed theft of Global Corporations IP.  How funny but sad …

  4. Gosman 4

    What a surprise – A leftist organisation guilty of intellectual property theft.

    I had a look at their website and their laughable economic goals. Highlights include these gems of comedic brilliance:

    “- no individuals or groups own resources, factories, etc., so ownership doesn’t affect anyone’s decision making influence or share of income.

    – workers who work longer or harder or at more onerous conditions doing socially valued labor (including training) earn proportionately more for doing.

    – there is neither market competition nor top-down planning, but instead decentralized cooperative negotiation of inputs and outputs, whether accomplished by workers and consumers councils or some other suitable method.”

    Why don’t they come out and state they are a Communist organisation – are they too embarrassed by the title?

    • r0b 4.1

      What a surprise – A leftist organisation guilty of intellectual property theft.

      Careful there Gos.

    • Bill 4.2

      A leftist organisation guilty of intellectual property theft. Proof? Or you just jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions?

      …laughable economic goals. Highlights include these gems of comedic brilliance:..

      Have you got any reasoning or argument to back up your assertion? Any intelligent criticism at all? Or are you just ‘barking to your master’s voice’ like a good little ‘Pavlov Poodle’?

      Why don’t they come out and state they are a Communist organisation…

      In a highly decentralised organisation, who do you imagine ‘they’ are Gosman? Do you imagine every member of the organisation self identifies as communist? What about those who would identify as being progressive or liberal or anarchist or any of the other number of ‘ists’, ‘ive’s’ or ‘isms’ that might reasonably indicate an adherence to or belief in democracy?

      Maybe ‘they’ (whoever ‘they’ may be) don’t state ‘they’ are a communist organisation simply because ‘they’ (the mouth pieces present in traditional organisations) don’t exist. That and the fact that the organisation isn’t communist.

      • Gosman 4.2.1

        Their economic prescriptions read like extracts from the collective works of Marx and Engels. No private property, people being paid according to their effort, worker controlled places of business, allocation of labour and resources managed via some magical mechanism not involving markets. It is all standard Communist economic theory. It ain’t new and it doesn’t work. I’m happy to get into the reasons it doesn’t work if you like.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1

          It ain’t new and it doesn’t work.

          As it’s not been tried how do you know that?

          The USSR was state capitalist and so is China, North Korea etc.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.1.1

            Cuba has aspects of worker led co-operatives. So to does Venezuela. All the places mentioned don’t believe in private property or the market mechanism for deciding allocation of resources.

            BTW what is this magical method of resource allocation DTB or haven’t you guys worked that one out yet?

            • Draco T Bastard 4.2.1.1.1.1

              Democracy – or is that too complex for you?

            • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1.1.2

              All the places mentioned don’t believe in private property or the market mechanism for deciding allocation of resources.

              Gosman – in total there are over 200 Russian and Chinese billionaires. So I think that “belief in private property” is alive and well in those countries.

              • Colonial Viper

                In fact according to this, China has 271 USD billionaires just by itself. Which well outnumbers the billionaires in “capitalist” market economies like Germany, Japan and India.

                Looks like China’s approach to state capitalism with a ‘Chinese Flavour’ competes against western models for wealth creation just fine, Gossie.

                Edit – link is here

                http://www.cnbc.com/id/44530244/China_s_10_Wealthiest_Billionaires

                • Gosman

                  When were these billionaires created C.V? Was it before or after the reforms introduced where private enterprise was encouraged?

        • Bill 4.2.1.2

          I’m happy to get into the reasons it doesn’t work if you like.

          Go on then.

          • Gosman 4.2.1.2.1

            It doesn’t price intellectual property for one and neither does it deal with risk.

            • Bill 4.2.1.2.1.1

              Nah. C’mon. So it doesn’t assign a price…a monetary value…to intellectual property (can’t be stolen for profit then, eh?)…And…?

              What’s this risk it doesn’t deal with? The risk of financial loss/benefit? Be more precise please.

              • Gosman

                The risk that something doesn’t pay off or the cost of something bad happening. Tell me how the system assigns a value to that? I can tell you how it is done in a free market system. It might be imperfect but at least it is inbuilt in the system.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  The risk that something doesn’t pay off or the cost of something bad happening.

                  In an actual rational socio-economic system there is no risk. Some resources will get used and, if the idea doesn’t work, recycled. Something else won’t be done as fast but that’s not really an issue – society would have been aware of that in the first place and decided to try whatever didn’t work anyway. The real important point is that nobody loses anything.

                  It might be imperfect but at least it is inbuilt in the system.

                  In fact it’s so wrong that it’s brought about anthropogenic climate change, increased poverty, and put a few people in what amounts to dictatorial control of the planet.

                  • Gosman

                    “In an actual rational socio-economic system there is no risk.”

                    Hence the failure of socialism. It can’t fully understand the concept of pricing risk.

                    That is not stating that capitalism doesn’t have problem with this either, as witnessed by the GFC.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      It can’t fully understand the concept of pricing risk.

                      That’s not an argument against the simple fact that I said that society would be making the decision with full information. They’d know exactly what the cost would be in real terms. The real economy is a zero sum game – if society decides to do something then they won’t be able to do something else.

                      There would be no risk because there would be no loss. The physical resources would still be there.

              • Gosman

                As for intellectual property, I presume you acknowledge that ideas can also be valuable or do you not place any degree of benefit on these?

                • Colonial Viper

                  An idea has nearly zero value until it is implemented. Implementations have value. Not ideas.

                  • Gosman

                    Wrong. Ideas have value when people are willing to pay for them. The fact you can’t understand that is why you are stuck in failed leftist economic thinking.

                    • felix

                      Interesting idea.

                      Does that mean that the more money someone is willing to pay, the better the idea?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Sure, the idea Time Warner had to acquire AOL for multi-billions was by Gossie’s thinking, one of the best ideas in the history of man.

                    • rosy

                      I use some number 8 wire to replace/fix something. It works for me, but only under my unique circumstances. It’s my idea, my implementation and no-one would be willing to pay for it. Does my idea have value?

                    • Gosman

                      Felix, no it doesn’t.

                      Take my example of homeopathic medicine. Just because people value the idea doesn’t make it useful.

                    • felix

                      Then what use is your definition of value if it doesn’t relate to the… err… value of the idea?

                    • Gosman

                      See Adele’s resonse to the homeopathic question below. She acknowledges that homeopathy is a billion dollar industry. Do you disagree that this is it’s economic value?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Paying for something doesn’t mean it has human value. And vice versa. (Not talking specifically about homeopathy, mind you).

                    • Gosman

                      I’ve already stated Iam meaning economic value her. Not social/moral value. Those are far harder to define.

                      You might want to base a society on pricing based on those ideas. Good luck to you. How would you define the value of homeopathy then?

                    • felix

                      I disagree that the fact that idiots pay billions of dollars for tiny bottles of water means that tiny bottles of water have any intrinsic value over and above the intrinsic value of what they actually are.

                    • felix

                      “How would you define the value of homeopathy then?”

                      Scientifically of course.

                    • Gosman

                      I’m not talking about intrinsic value. I’m discussing economic value.

                    • felix

                      I know. But what use is your measure of “economic value” if it’s unrelated to the actual, you know, real intrinsic value?

                      I mean what actual use?

                  • Gosman

                    This goes to the heart of the matter though. If a single pill saved a persons life how doi you value that? I mean how much is a person’s life worth? It is entirely subjective. Some would argue it is priceless. But then you get into problems of whether an old person’t life is worth more or less than a young persons life then.

                • Adele

                  Gosman

                  Ideas are only valuable when they are commodified – it’s relatively easy to have a good idea but try making it happen as a success story – i.e. lots of people want to buy the end product.

                  Also, I think if we can survive this current stream of conciousness than in all probability a participatory society will become a reality of the future.

                  It only requires people to act with integrity towards each other. Communism didn’t work because people in influential positions were corrupt. Capitalism is not working because people in influential positions are corrupt.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Ideas are strange things – the more they’re shared the more valuable they become, The more they’re restricted the less valuable and when shared the person with the original idea hasn’t lost.

                  • Adele

                    With all due respect, Draco

                    It sounds like you’ve watched too many chick flicks.

                    Ideas aren’t meant to be simply shared around like feelgood popcorn. They only become meaningful when put into practise. What I dislike most about ‘ideas’ folk is that they usually expect others to realise their dreams for them. An idea worth sharing is an idea worth doing – yourself.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Sharing ideas sparks more ideas from others who have different knowledge.

                  • Gosman

                    Wrong. Ideas have value dependent on what people are willing to pay for them not on how much they are shared. But thanks for illustrating the problem leftists have with intellectual property.

                    • McFlock

                      Wrong.
                      I’d probably go so far as to say that it’s not actually possible to purchase just an idea. All transactions involve implementations of the idea. Even books. There might be an exception, but I can’t think of it at the moment.
                       

                    • Gosman

                      I can inform you of an idea McFlock and you can pay me for that. You don’t have to implement my idea. You still have essentially valued that idea at the point you paid me to tell you though.

                    • McFlock

                      Okay, consultancy. Interesting thought.
                           
                      Tell me, if every idea you informed me of was never implemented, how long do you think I’d keep paying you? The supposed value to me of your idea is actually the projected value of any implementation of that idea.
                       

                    • Gosman

                      I presume that if you don’t implement my ideas and get some benefit from them at some stage you will stop paying me. However the value of my idea is still based on how much you paid me for them not the benefit you gained from doing so.

                    • Adele

                      Gosman

                      What fool would pay you for an idea only? If somebody has sufficient money to simply throw out on ‘owning an idea’ they obviously have inherited wealth and deserve to lose every penny of it.

                    • McFlock

                      Nope.
                      If you sell horse shit labelled as gold dust, it’s still horse shit.
                            
                      You haven’t demonstrated the value of your ideas, just the gullibility of your clients in believing implementations of your ideas will produce value.

                    • Gosman

                      This just serves to illustrate why the thinking promoted by that group can’t grasp concepts such as pricing the values of ideas.

                      Let me put it in real world terms for you. What is the economic value of Homeopathic medicine?

                    • McFlock

                      or your idiotic belief that something which does nothing, produces nothing, has no form, substance, colour or smell, has value simply because someone can be conned into believing it will do any or all of the above.
                            
                      Pretty screwed up, dude.

                    • Gosman

                      No, I wouldn’t pay for homeopathy myself because I agree with you that it is horseshit. However it does have economic value because the idea has been ‘bought’ by gullible people. Essentially they are only purchasing water but it has more value to them because they think it is doing something and they are willing to pay more than for non-homeopathic water. It is essentiallly the idea they are paying for.

                    • Adele

                      Gosman

                      Homeopathic medicine is a billion dollar industry in the USA. Its been in practise in various forms for a very long time. So what is the point, again?

                    • Gosman

                      You have illustrated my point perfectly Adele. Thank you for that. It has an economic value.

                      Now please ask McFlock whether he believes it has an economic value.

                    • Adele

                      Gosman

                      Selling homeopathy is not selling an idea of wellness.

                      There are approximately 6000-7000 adverse drug reactions reported each year in this country – with a large number resulting in death. So far, no deaths have been reported for homeopathic remedies.

                      Obviously, what is being purchased is ‘holy’ water.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      Okay, let’s look at it from another angle.
                             
                      You are a consultant with an idea. All your prospective clients know that the idea will never be implemented in any way whatsoever, even as vaporware. It won’t boost productivity or improve health or wellbeing, or do anything else. It is an idea that will never be implemented in the real world. Everybody knows this. Perfect information about the economic value of your idea, throughout the world.
                          
                      So tell me: who would give you money in exchange for this idea?
                       
                      My suggested answer is “nobody”. And if nobody pays for it, by your measure the idea is without economic value.

                       
                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Ideas have value dependent on what people are willing to pay for them…

                      Money is a delusion.

                    • rosy

                      Exactly McFlock, Gosman seems to me to be conflating the economic value of an idea with the traded value.

                    • Gosman

                      How do you measure the economic value of something then rosy?

                      What is the economic value of Homeopathic remedies?

                    • rosy

                      Dunno Gos, what’s the economic value of an idea like Unix, Gnu, Wikipedia compared to the economic value of say, an iPhone? I know the first three don’t have a traded value, but the last does, so I certainly wouldn’t value it at the price someone is willing to pay.

                      What’s the economic value of homeopathy? In money terms the (company profit + the placebo effect that saves medical costs) minus (the extra cost to the health system of delayed care for serious illness)

                    • McFlock

                      Gosman, I think you might have missed my question.
                             
                      If you had an idea that everybody from the outset knew for certain would never have any implementation whatsoever, who would pay for it?

                    • Gosman

                      “Perfect information about the economic value of your idea, throughout the world.”

                      And therein lies your problem. You will never get this because no two people think exactly the same about something.

                      I find it interesting that libertarian ideas are dismissed as pie in the sky stuff by many here yet you seem to believe in this fantasy land version of reality.

                      Now go back to Homeopathy McFlock. Does it have economic value?

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, it was a demonstration that the idea itself has no value – any monetary transactions are based around the probability that the implementation of that idea will produce value x.
                                  
                      Let’s, for the sake of debate, assume that homeopathic medicine doesn’t work. So the world has two sets of folk in it, those who think (in error) that it does work, and those who think it doesn’t work and might delay treatment (a la Steve Jobs). 
                           
                      Obviously, those people who think homeopathic medicine does work will pay for treatments based on the health outcome they think they’ll receive. I.e. the outcome of its implementation.
                           
                      What about the other group? Why would they purchase an idea that would not be implemented on the grounds that they believe it would, if anything, cause harm through inaction?
                                  
                      Now let’s assume homeopathic medicine does work. Believers will still pay money on the expected value of treatment, not on the idea. Non-believers will still not bother purchasing an idea that they believe will not help when implemented.

                      So it’s not the idea of homeopathic medicine that has value – it’s the expected value of outcomes from the implementation of the idea of homeopathic treatments.
                                

                    • Gosman

                      But both you and I know that Homeopathic remedies are no better than a placebo , i.e. the user might as well drink tap water rather than pay for the remedy.

                      So following your logic the homeopathic remedies have an economic value of zero. Yet this flies in the face of the fact that it is a billion dollar industry employing thousands of people around the world.

                      Your convoluted logic about the value of ideas falls down in this matter. It isn’t the outcome or even expected outcome that had the value. That value is up front when the transaction takes place.

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, it’s not “convoluted”, it’s pretty bloody simple.
                           
                      And whether or not homeopathic treatments actually work is irrelevant to the price people are prepared to pay for the implementation of the “remedy”. The people who believe they work  will pay (a lot). The people who don’t believe they work will not pay anything. So they’re not buying the “idea”, they’re buying the implementation of the idea based on what they believe the value of the implementation is, and the probability of it working.
                              
                      Hell, you’ve been commenting in this thread that socialists have no idea how to price risk, but you are having exactly the same difficulty of which you accuse others: you are failing (refusing?) to understand that the price people will pay for a medical treatment is a function of the reward from successful treatment and the risk that it will not work.

                    • Gosman

                      Whatever function is used to determining the price someone is willing to pay for something is irrelevant in working out it’s economic value. This is purely the price that someone is willing to sell an item and someone is willing to purchase it. You over complicate matters by presupposing the value is derived from anything other than this simple concept.

                    • Gosman

                      Let’s take it back to the consultancy idea. The economic value in the consultancy is not in the amount it might save a firm if they implemented the idea, although it does play a part in reaching it’s economic value. It’s value is simply in the amount that the person with the idea is willing to pass the information to another person and that other person is willing to pay for that idea so long as they are the at least the same. If I have an idea that I think can save you 1 million currency units per year and I am willing to sell you that idea for 250,000 currency units but you are only willing to pay 100,000, if I don’t lower my expectation of how much my idea is worth the idea has no economic value.

                    • McFlock

                      Gos, CV’s original statement was “An idea has nearly zero value until it  is implemented. Implementations have value. Not ideas.”
                             
                             
                      You have an idea that you think will save 1 million currency units per annum. Fair enough. If I know I could never implement that idea, why would I pay a single currency unit, let alone 100,000? I wouldn’t. Assuming ideas are tradeable commodities (big assumption, on the grounds that one can’t really do due diligence without a transfer of the idea), any value comes from its implementation. What I’d really be purchasing is not the idea, but the probability of a successful implementation of that idea.

                    • Gosman

                      And I’m telling you the implementation of an idea doesn’t determinie it’s economic value. That was done at the point of the transaction when the idea was passed from one person to another and some form of economic value was transferred back. Ideas might even make a loss, (and often do). The value is not dependent on them being implemented. All that means is the economic value of the idea on being passed on to someone else is likely to have fallen significantly (But not necessarily). This is what the hard leftist thinking at the heart of this debate cannot not grasp. Neither can you it seems.

                    • McFlock
                       
                       

                      And I’m telling you the implementation of an idea doesn’t determinie it’s economic value. That was done at the point of the transaction when the idea was passed from one person to another and some form of economic value was transferred back.

                          
                      Fuck sake this is getting circular, but I think you’re almost there. At the point of transaction, where does that value come from? Why is one idea “worth” a million dollars, but another idea is “worth” nothing”? Why would anyone pay money for idea A but laugh if you asked for money for idea B?
                          
                      The answer is easy. Take your time.
                       
                       

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Wow so many BS statements in so few words, amazing.

                    Ideas have value dependent on what people are willing to pay for them

                    Usual shite from you i.e. the value of life is measured by the price you can fetch for it.

                    • Gosman

                      The trouble you have C.V is you seeemingly believe there is some innate economic value in something regardless of a transaction taking place. There may very well be some social or moral value in it but there isn’t an economic one until that transaction takes place.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You say that because you only consider the financialised aspects of economics, not the broader category of real-physical-world economics.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      As an example. I keep a spare 10L container of diesel in the back of my vehicle. It sits there. I haven’t used it in months. No transactions have been taking place around it. But its presence there could easily save my life (or someone elses) at some stage over this winter.

                      That’s pretty fucking economic IMO.

                    • Gosman

                      You are essentially pricing risk there C.V. Congrats on taking some steps in that direction.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      And what is the price associated with that risk, pray tell?

                    • Gosman

                      You’ve already answered that question.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      What is it then? What is the transactional price you are referring to?

                      And is the pricing of that risk transaction objective or subjective?

                    • Gosman

                      It’s the price of putting the 10 litres of diesal in the back of your vehicle.

                      How many other people do you know do the same C.V?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So the pricing of the risk is simply $15 then?

                      And is that pricing subjective or objective?

                      Lots of people I know carry spare fuel in their vehicles.

                    • Gosman

                      What a silly question. Is the price objective or subjective? Is the $15 you spent on the putting the diesel in the back of your car objective or subjective?

                      I presume you know some people you know don’t keep petrol in the back of their vehicles. If not you seem to keep a rather select group of friends and aquaintences.

                      I for one don’t keep any petrol in the back of my vehicle. This is because I don’t price the risk of my running out of fuel outside the walking distance of a service station as great as you do.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So pricing in orthodox economics can be largely subjective then?

      • Gosman 4.2.2

        By the way my intellectual property comment was satirical. That stated I suspect strongly that this hasn’t been paid for by the organisation simply because it is so poorly produced and I doubt very much Fox would allow their intellectual property to be b@stardised so poorly for political purposes. That stated they might have enjoyed taking money off these hard leftist wackos.

  5. Uturn 5

    Oh for fucksake drossman, this page of gobshite from you proves you haven’t read any of Marx and Engel’s work. Starting with your claim that Cuba is a working model of communism/socialism and continuing right through to your confusion over values of ideas.

    Let me spell it out for you:

    Capitalism accumulates labour, ideas, resources and money – anything you like. It takes those public resources and places them under individual control – to date, in a purely arbitrary manner, through culture.

    As someone up the page said, if, under a socialist model that works, a collective chooses not to do something, the resource is still there, intact, for a future point. It’s “energy” remains exactly as it was when you first imagined it – actually increasing in “value”, as man develops to understand and match its potential.

    I await your recollection of the method you used to concieve and birth yourself, feed yourself when you couldn’t even open your eyes, exist in a relatively safe community, receive an education, medicate yourself with the knowledge of a doctor at age when you could hardly understand your own bodily functions, among other things, and reach the age you are now. Your entire entity does not live in a self-created vacuum, because despite your infantilism, you are not centre of the universe and haven’t been since you were a toddler, which is where your ability to think and experience the world seems to have stalled. When you have examined even the basic s of how indivduals fit into the greater context, come back and wow us. Until then, you remain, the ever dreary, drossman.

  6. captain hook 6

    grossman thinks capitalism means he can have a dog to foul the streets with and a hardly davidson to assault our eardrums with.
    thats what choice is for noo noo heads.
    and redlogix I am not drunk.
    I just care for the world and not the aquisition of goods and brownie points.
    ok?

    • Bill 7.1

      That critique would appear to come from a perspective that applies contemporary psychological reactions and approaches to work, ie responses informed by Capitalist relations and command economy relations to a different economic model without taking into account the likely or possible psychological affects of that new environment.

      From the experience of a worker…me… (something the author seems to put great store by), the shirking and the over rating of peoples’ effort and sacrifice in the work environment simply doesn’t occur in an environment with paraconish attributes. Peer pressure is a very powerful tool and besides, why would the behaviour of ‘underdogs’ or wage slaves or the disenfranchised continue to manifest itself unaltered in a new set up where those heirarchies that contribute to assymetries of power have been levelled?

      On the wage question, I agree to a point. But then, just because people are receiving money for work, that doesn’t mean the system that is used today hasn’t been abolished. If wages are paid according to different criteria than today, then can’t we say the wage system has been abolished? And is there any reason why workers would need to pay themselves wages if they didn’t want to?

      Even under capitalism it is possible for workers to set up businesses where no wages are paid at all; where the income generated by the business, which is under the direct control of the workers, is used by the workers to provide for themselves collectively and individually without any of the workers being income earners.

  7. Malcolm 9

    “Communism is about reducing effort and sacrifice not raising them to fundamental principles as a sort of secular protestant work ethic. Remuneration for effort and sacrifice is based on the same assumptions of human behaviour as neoclassical economics (that as price reaches 0, demand increases exponentially), which are demonstrably false (there are some interesting anthropological studies to this effect, as well as the everyday experience that if tea and coffee is free at work we don’t all overdose on caffeine, or all become hypochondriacs when there’s free universal healthcare etc).”

    • Bill 9.1

      Paracon is simply about recognising effort and sacrifice, not placing such things on a pedestal. Look at this way. Maintaining the sewerage system isn’t something people want to do if they have options for better, more enjoyable productive activities. Way I see it there are limited options for getting that shit system maintained.

      1. Have an economic system that results in some people eventually having no other choice but to perform those ‘crappy’ jobs if they want to put food on their table.

      2. Have compulsion…like in Command Economies where you are simply told what you’re going to be doing by your political masters.

      3. Reward the performing of that task better than other more comfortable tasks. (Incentivise)

      4. Have no wages paid, but a self managed system whereby everyone undertakes to perform a given amount of the ‘crappy’ stuff.

      5. A mix of 3 and 4….a workers self managed balanced job complex…where wages may or may not be paid according to the preferences of that particular set of workers

Recent Comments

Recent Posts

  • Minister makes meagre effort to fix big problem
    Today’s announcement by Health Minister Jonathan Coleman that Budget 2015 will include $98 million for elective surgery over three to four years should be seen for what it is – a drop in the bucket in an effort to appease… ...
    2 hours ago
  • Treasury forecasts a deficit for next year too
    National has tried to get the bad deficit news out of the way before this year's Budget but Treasury’s warned next year’s books could also be in the red despite Bill English's panicked spending cuts late last year, Labour’s Finance… ...
    4 hours ago
  • OIA chaos in the Ministry of Social Development
    So it turns out yesterday’s story about WINZ cuts to dental care loans was wrong, and through no fault of Radio New Zealand who ran it. The Ministry of Social Development (MSD) has today corrected the Official Information Act release… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    5 hours ago
  • First state house sell-off will achieve little
    The first tranche of the Government’s state house sell-off will do nothing to fix the housing crisis or better the lives of vulnerable families, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. The Government has just announced the transfer of 1600 state… ...
    5 hours ago
  • Job figures show many missing out
    New Zealand’s “rock star” economy is failing to deliver either a surplus, real wage increases or job growth with unemployment stuck at 5.8 per cent,” Labour’s Leader Andrew Little says. “The Government trumpets the 3 per cent growth rate and… ...
    7 hours ago
  • Secret moves could undermine education system
    The Government must explain why it is pushing to open doors to multinational private education providers through a controversial international free trade agreement, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “Documents leaked today show our Government is one of a handful… ...
    8 hours ago
  • Spotless must now end all zero-hours contracts
    New Zealand’s largest contractor of food, cleaning and hospital staff, Spotless, must now take action to end all zero-hour contracts, Opposition leader Andrew Little says. “Yesterday Labour asked questions of Parliamentary Service and the Speaker after we revealed nine parliamentary… ...
    11 hours ago
  • Are we even talking about welfare anymore?
    I’ve worked with children in the slums in India and that experience confirmed my sense of luck that I live in a small, naturally abundant country, which many years ago made the decision to share those resources so everyone had… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    22 hours ago
  • MPs warned off celebrations for fear of upsetting Chinese
    A leaked email that reveals the Government is warning MPs not to attend Falun Gong celebrations and that China will be spying on people who do has no place in a free society, Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer says.Advice… ...
    1 day ago
  • Labour stands behind Solid Energy miners
    Solid Energy miners will not be surprised at the company’s announcement today of further restructuring but any more job losses will be a shock for West Coast communities, Labour’s MP for West Coast-Tasman Damien O’Connor says. “I have my fingers… ...
    1 day ago
  • TPK unable to deliver on Whanau Ora
    The Auditor General’s report on Whanau Ora highlights what many people knew – Te Puni Kokiri was never designed to be a service delivery agency, said Labour’s Maori Development Spokesperson Nanaia Mahuta and Whānau Ora spokesperson Adrian Rurawhe. “In the… ...
    1 day ago
  • Too many Kiwis waiting on waiting lists
    Waiting lists to get on waiting lists are the new norm for thousands of New Zealanders living with chronic health problems, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says. “The Government’s underfunding of the health sector is forcing district health boards to… ...
    1 day ago
  • Delays in spending damage Whanau Ora
    Criticism from the Auditor General that a greater proportion of Whanau Ora funds could have been directed to families rather than administration is something that needs to be investigated thoroughly, says Social Development Spokesperson Carmel Sepuloni.  “To quote the report… ...
    1 day ago
  • Walking the talk on sexual violence
    Te Tai Tokerau MP Kelvin Davis is putting election campaign promises into action, organising a hīkoi to raise awareness around sexual violence. The 17-day MASSIVE (Men Against Sexual Violence) walk – from the electorate’s southern boundary to the northern tip… ...
    1 day ago
  • Govt dumps infrastructure costs on Akld ratepayers
    The Government’s failure to invest in infrastructure to service its Special Housing Areas is dumping massive costs on Auckland ratepayers, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. Auckland Council has declined to approve three new Special Housing Areas on the city… ...
    1 day ago
  • Labour reforms encourage bad employers to be bullies
    The Government’s changes to labour laws have created a climate that allows bad employers to bully their workers, Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway says. “Tauranga worker Bertie Ratu was threatened by her employer Talley’s for asking her local… ...
    1 day ago
  • Parliament workers on zero-hour contracts
    The Government must take urgent action and insist the contractor who employs workers at Parliament on zero-hour contracts end these unfair work arrangements, Labour Leader Andrew Little says. “Speaker David Carter has confirmed in his reply to questions from Labour… ...
    1 day ago
  • RMA: We need to know
    Environment Minister Nick Smith needs to spell out to New Zealanders what they can expect from his substantial reform of the RMA, says Labour’s Environment spokesperson Megan Woods.  In an open letter to the Minister, Megan Woods has urged him… ...
    1 day ago
  • He Aituā! He Aituā!
    “Papā te whatitiri! Hikohiko te uira! Ka wāwāhia ki runga o Hikurangi maunga, o Waiwhetū kainga. “Kua katohia e te ringa kaha o Aituā i tetahi pou whakarae o te reo Māori. Nō reira kei hea taku manu tui… ...
    2 days ago
  • Stratoil – Iwis do what National will not
    Tomorrow, Far North tribal representatives for the Te Hiku o Te Ika tribes will be travelling to the head office of Statoil to discuss the opposition to its oil exploration program in Te Reinga Basin. Statoil have decided to begin… ...
    GreensBy Gareth Hughes MP
    2 days ago
  • Mana whenua head North to oppose oil drilling
    It was good to hear the news that a mana whenua delegation is heading north, a long way north, to make their views known about the proposed  oil drilling off the Northland coast. The roopu will be representing iwi and hapu… ...
    GreensBy David Clendon MP
    2 days ago
  • Ministers must act on 111 failure
    Lives are being put at risk if the company contracted to manage emergency 111 calls can’t cope with increased numbers, Labour’s ICT spokesperson Clare Curran says. “Saturday’s situation where people calling the emergency services were unable to get through and were… ...
    2 days ago
  • People trying to save lives don’t deserve abuse
    WorkSafe New Zealand staff trying to save lives on farms shouldn’t be subjected to a tirade of verbal abuse from a Member of Parliament, Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway says. “Chester Borrows has labelled WorkSafe New Zealand officials… ...
    2 days ago
  • Action on laws needed in Privacy Week
    The Government must speed up promised law changes to reassure the public their private information is in safe hands as the country marks Privacy Week, Labour’s associate Justice spokesperson Clare Curran said today. “The previous Justice Minister Judith Collins announced… ...
    2 days ago
  • Māori Caucus call on iwi leaders support
    Labour’s Māori caucus has sent an open letter to iwi leaders around the country seeking their support for meat workers currently in employment negotiations with Talleys.  “We are aware that when Talleys locked out workers for a period of 89… ...
    2 days ago
  • National still splashing cash on charter school experiment
    New figures confirming that charter schools are still being funded at up to four times the rate of their state school counterparts shows just how desperate the National Government is to make its experiment a success, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris… ...
    4 days ago
  • Regions pay price for inaction on housing
    New figures put the cost of an average Auckland home at $800,000 and show large parts of the country facing stagnant or falling property values, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “The QV data released today shows residential property values… ...
    5 days ago
  • Regions pay price for inaction on housing
    New figures put the cost of an average Auckland home at $800,000 and show large parts of the country facing stagnant or falling property values, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “The QV data released today shows residential property values… ...
    5 days ago
  • PPP schools not at expense of community groups
    The Government must guarantee community groups will not be the losers out of its signing of a $298 million deal for four more public private partnership (PPP) schools, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins says. “Community groups will find it more… ...
    5 days ago
  • Surplus: The biggest broken promise ever
    Bill English has failed to deliver on his double-election campaign promise of a surplus by this year, instead delivering seven deficits out of seven budgets, says Labour’s Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson. “The Government spent seven years and two election campaigns… ...
    5 days ago
  • McDonald’s serves up some McHappiness
    Unite Union and McDonald’s have given New Zealand a perfect way to celebrate May Day by reaching a settlement that strikes another blow against zero-hour contracts, Labour spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway says. “Earlier this week it looked like… ...
    5 days ago
  • Justice delayed and delayed and delayed
    Today we found out that the case of the prominent New Zealander  charged with indecent assault will retain name suppression until the case goes to court in about a year. Putting aside the appropriateness or not of granting name suppression,… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    5 days ago
  • No golden age for books
    The ‘indefinite’ postponement of an initiative designed to encourage people to read Kiwi books will be a major blow to local authors, publishers and booksellers, Labour’s Arts, Culture and Heritage spokesperson Jacinda Ardern says.News that the annual NZ Book Month… ...
    6 days ago
  • Cracks showing in economy of milk and houses
    Fonterra’s latest cut to its forecast farmgate payout confirms that an economic black hole of $7 billion is opening up that will seriously affect the regions, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “The cut confirms the long term trend of… ...
    6 days ago
  • Human Rights – An Issue for Everyone
    This week, the issue of human rights has been everywhere in the news. We have seen John Key prioritise a free trade agreement with Saudi Arabia over all else with no guarantee of human rights clauses being included. We have… ...
    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    6 days ago
  • Govt inaction on housing keeping rates high
    The Government’s failure to rein in the housing crisis means the Reserve Bank Governor cannot lower interest rates despite inflation being at 15-year lows, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Inflation is below the target band and the economy has… ...
    6 days ago
  • What do our refugee policies say about us?
    It is my pleasure to share with you a blog from Hester Moore who is currently interning with the United Nations High Commission on Refugees in Cairo, after graduating from the Univeristy of Canterbury. Sometimes, as a nation it is… ...
    GreensBy Denise Roche MP
    6 days ago
  • Tamaki state housing transfer risky and desperate
    The Government’s transfer of 2800 state houses to the Tamaki Redevelopment Company -- to be announced at 9am today -- shows it's desperation to off-load state houses and show some kind of action against Auckland's out of control housing crisis,… ...
    6 days ago
  • Tamaki state housing transfer risky and desperate
    The Government’s transfer of 2800 state houses to the Tamaki Redevelopment Company -- to be announced at 9am today -- shows it's desperation to off-load state houses and show some kind of action against Auckland's out of control housing crisis,… ...
    6 days ago
  • Woodhouse should close work visa loophole
    The Immigration Minister must revoke the work visas of temporary Chinese engineers working on KiwiRail trains and close the loophole that allows their employers to avoid New Zealand employment laws, says Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues, Iain Lees-Galloway. “New Zealanders… ...
    1 week ago
  • Job losses show folly of Chorus’ copper cuts
    Chorus and the Government are neglecting the copper broadband network, leading to 145 potential job losses at Transfield Services as well as poor services in the regions, says Labour’s Broadcasting Spokesperson Clare Curran. “Steven Joyce and Amy Adams have made… ...
    1 week ago
  • National quietly ditches its surplus promise
    National has quietly dropped its long-promised return to surplus by this year by removing the date it will get the books back in the black from its online campaign material, says Labour’s Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson. “National’s pledge to reach… ...
    1 week ago
  • Even cheap houses now unaffordable
    New housing affordability data show that now even the cheapest houses in Auckland are unaffordable for first home buyers, says Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford.  “The AMP360 Home Loan Affordability Report reveals Auckland's lower quartile house price has leapt to… ...
    1 week ago
  • Key’s careless chatter tips off Arabic media
    John Key has shown a frightening lack of judgement in disclosing to an Arabic media outlet that Kiwi troops are in the UAE awaiting deployment to Iraq, Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer says. “At the same time the Prime… ...
    1 week ago
  • Child poverty will not be solved by vouchers
    New Zealand has debilitating levels of child poverty, entrenched violence against women and children, and the ongoing effects of colonisation on Maori are brutalising communities. When we dwell on the statistics – which mostly we don’t because it all seems… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    1 week ago
  • Simon Bridges spent over $6500 on Northland
    Transport Minister Simon Bridges spent over $6519 on travel and flights to Northland for the by-election – spending around $1000 a week, Labour’s Acting Leader Annette King says. “Simon Bridges’ desperate dashes to Northland got him in political hot water.… ...
    1 week ago
  • Firing squad deaths deplorable
    The execution of eight men by an Indonesian firing squad is deplorable, Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer says. “New Zealanders do not support the use of the death penalty under any circumstances. ...
    1 week ago
  • Aged care workers need more than talk
    Yesterday AUT released the New Zealand Aged Care Workforce Survey 2014. The conditions of aged care workers are important for many reasons. We have an ageing population and people are going into care/requiring care later than before, so it’s critically… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    1 week ago
  • Aged care needs urgent attention
    The Government must stop neglecting older New Zealanders and the people who care for them and give urgent attention to a sector that is in dire straits, says Labour’s Associate Health Spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway. “The lead author of the New… ...
    1 week ago
  • Passing the buck a disaster in the making
    Moves to overhaul the social services sector are nothing more than privatisation in drag and are a potential disaster in the making, Labour’s Social Development spokesperson Carmel Sepuloni says. “A report from the Productivity Commission supports the Government’s push for… ...
    1 week ago

Public service advertisements by The Standard

Current CO2 level in the atmosphere