Islamic Extremism: not a threat

Written By: - Date published: 10:33 am, November 17th, 2014 - 112 comments
Categories: Spying - Tags:

The war-mongering and hysterics are ridiculous.

Apparently we have much to fear, an unprecendented threat and need to give up our liberties.

Bullshit.

We have no history of Islamic extremism in NZ.  No groups wanting sharia law.  No noticeable support for IS.

We have a small moderate Muslim community.

And we have the likes of Stephen Franks on the right claiming NZ has 30% Muslim support for IS, but – as RadioNZ Mediawatch worked out – in fact it was an international survey, a number of years ago, and the 30% was the number of Muslims who thought that the caliphate would be re-established in their lifetimes.  So hardly support for IS.

The threat is hardly “unprecedented” – IS are not so dissimilar from al-Qaeda, except much more focussed on the Middle East, much less on the West.  Islamic militantism has been about since the 7th century when they made the Mediterranean a Muslim lake.

It’s intriguing the great increase in powers the UK has given their authorities over IRA days – despite the fact that IRA was a much greater threat.  We don’t need to continue down that path.

I see no reason for us to send troops to Iraq to clean up US’s mess – we weren’t involved in the first place. Humanitarian aid? Sure.

I see no reason for us to give our spy agencies more powers.  A few (and the number is probably literally that) who are misguided and actual potential risks can be easily monitored in current ways.

I see no reason for us to make people stateless against UN conventions by canceling their passports while overseas.  We can follow the rule of law, and monitor anyone and charge them with any crimes in the proper way.

Let’s just tone it all back a notch.

112 comments on “Islamic Extremism: not a threat ”

  1. vto 1

    Pretty much all of the west is currently at war in the middle east.

    As such all pronouncements by western governments must be discounted for the war / propaganda element. That element would be close to 100%

    • joe90 1.1

      A hundred years of interfering continues…

      In the early 1990s, the United States began emphasizing civil society development in the Middle East. After the attacks of September 11, 2001, the George W. Bush administration significantly increased American assistance to the region. By fiscal year 2009, the level of annual U.S. democracy aid in the Middle East was more than the total amount spent between 1991 to 2001.

      But while it was categorized as democracy aid, it wasn’t necessarily meant to promote democracy. Democracy entails ‘alternation of power,’ but most NGOs that received Western assistance avoided anything that could be construed as supporting a change in regime.

      The reason was simple. The U.S. and other Western powers supported ‘reform,’ but they were not interested in overturning an order which had given them pliant, if illegitimate, Arab regimes. Those regimes became part of a comfortable strategic arrangement that secured Western interests in the region, including a forward military posture, access to energy resources and security for the state of Israel. Furthermore, the West feared that the alternative was a radical Islamist takeover reminiscent of the Iranian revolution of 1979

      http://www.aucegypt.edu/Gapp/CairoReview/Pages/articleDetails.aspx?aid=20

  2. Chooky 2

    +100… Great Post!….and bloody man made ‘Stupid Wars’…wars beget wars…and women , children and innocent men suffer.

    http://rt.com/shows/crosstalk/201763-islamic-state-us-terror/

    What is Washington’s strategy against the Islamic State? Is the Islamic State a creation of the United States? Is the war on terror really a war on Islam? Will the US make amends with Iran in order to defeat the jihadist militants? What is Washington’s endgame? CrossTalking with Ken O’Keefe, Majid Rafizadeh, and Peter van Buren.

    New Zealand should be keeping well out of this war!

    • wyndham 2.1

      Always good for a military / industrial state to have someone to fire expensive armaments at. Helps the job market no end. And all those fired off armaments can’t be re-used. Simply replace them with more of the same.

      And if hot wars start to cool then poke a stick into the Russian nest. They’re always good for a cold war.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      Is the war on terror really a war on Islam?

      It does appear that way but what it really is, IMO, is a war set up to try and prevent the decline of the US Empire.

      New Zealand should be keeping well out of this war!

      Yes and declaring our total and utter neutrality. Essentially declaring our removal from the empire but, of course, National are working hard to tie us even more into the empire.

      • War is the US solution to soaking up unemployment, and creating new markets for its corporations to take over. They want WW3 because look at how their economy took off after WW2 !

    • Is the war on terror really a war on Islam?

      Who cares if it is? You may not be at war with any particular totalitarian philosophy, but they’re all always at war with you.

  3. Raa 3

    I think this is something of a lemming-like rush to destruction.

    Who benefits ?

    This is worth a read ..

    http://www.amazon.com/Host-Parasite-Israels-Consumed-America/dp/1893302970/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1416177700&sr=8-2&keywords=felton+host+parasite

    http://www.wcl.govt.nz/easyfind/?hreciid=|library/m/wellington-carl|0001137198

  4. alwyn 4

    This posting says
    “I see no reason for us to make people stateless against UN conventions by canceling their passports while overseas. ”
    It appears to be confusing two things. To make someone “stateless” is to cancel their citizenship. Citizenship and the right to have a passport are completely different things and cancelling a passport does not affect the person’s citizenship.
    If a passport is cancelled whilst someone is overseas it may be very inconvenient for them, and could cause them to be deported from an overseas country but it does not deprive them of their New Zealand citizenship, or the right to re-enter New Zealand.

    • Colonial Rawshark 4.1

      Have there been any assurances that these people remain NZ citizens after their passports have been cancelled, and cannot be summarily killed by US forces.

      • Psycho Milt 4.1.1

        If these guys are engaged in irregular warfare against people the US has a military relationship with, they can be summarily killed by US forces regardless of their citizenship.

    • minarch 4.2

      +1 to this

      a passport is simply a travel document, it does not necessarily infer citizenship

      eg: investment passports, like the Tongan Protected Person’s Passport (TPPP)

      or

      Kiribati investor passports

      • Bunji 4.2.1

        Yes they’re different things, but there was discussion about “making it difficult to get back into the country”.

        So yay, you’re an NZ citizen who can’t get into NZ…

        What would that leave you? Effectively Stateless.

        • alwyn 4.2.1.1

          Under the Citizenship Act it would appear, under sections 15 – 19, to be impossible to deprive anyone of their New Zealand citizenship unless they held some other citizenship or if doing so, even if they got citizenship by fraud, would leave them stateless.
          You can’t even renounce your citizenship unless you hold another one.
          http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1977/0061/latest/whole.html

          Do you have a link to the bit about “making it difficult to get back into the country”. I don’t see quite what they would be talking about.

        • Minarch 4.2.1.2

          its called an emergency travel document

        • RedBaronCV 4.2.1.3

          Well the airlines are gonna luv that – ex iraqi fighters holed up in the arrival louge forever?

  5. adam 5

    Isis is going to be a massive failed state anyway. The so called new Caliphate is falling apart from within. Yes it’s not a bad military power, but ask yourself – where are the doctors, the teachers, the road workers, and the engineers? Running for their lives, yeap ISIS have taken a page from the Khmer Rouge and labeled intellectuals and professionals the enemy of the islamic state. And we all know how well that worked out for Cambodia.

    There is no power in many of the towns that ISIS have taken over, go get some satellite maps of the region at night, it really is seeing the lights go out slowly over time.

    So war with who, a bunch of nut jobs who have embraced the great leap backwards?

    I’m not convinced it can last. If the West really want to stomp on ISIS – well lets do it right. Tell Turkey and Saudi Arabia to stop funding them with cash and arms. Or will bomb them back to the dark ages as well. But no that will not happen, because our dear leaders, want to waste our men and women in a war it can not win.

    Welcome to the new corportarcy were reason, logic, humanity and the long view – are all political non issues.

    • Colonial Rawshark 5.1

      ISIS holds a territory of hundreds of thousands of square km and 6M population (many of whom are veterans of Saddam’s army and have their own AK’s) with fewer than 10K of their own men.

      You can’t do that unless large elements of the local population (i.e. Sunnis and Baathists) are on your side.

      • adam 5.1.1

        I agree, but how long can they hold it together when the people who hold societies together are leaving?

        • RedLogix 5.1.1.1

          I think you tangentially hit on one of the key elements of the Islamic puzzle so often missed by Westerners – especially in NZ where we have relatively little cultural exposure.

          Islam in NOT a single coherent religion. No more than Christianity is. And overlooking it’s complex history renders our readings of it simplistic in the extreme:

          Contrary to prevalent Western beliefs, Wahhabism is not an old Islamic tradition and the House of Saud does not enjoy a credible historic claim to rule over Arabia. Indeed, Wahhabism emerged only 250 years ago under the guidance of an obscure fanatic known as Muhammad Ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab who later formed an alliance with a group of desert bandits, the Sauds. From the time they established their covenant to the creation of the modern Saudi state, the Saudi-Wahhabi movement spread across the peninsula brutally defeating and enslaving non-Wahhabi elements.

          A substantial body of nineteenth century scholarship does exist to confirm the bloody rise of the Saudi-Wahhabi state. Thomas Hope, a British author, wrote extensively about the Wahhabi spread from his travels throughout the Middle East. In his novel Anastasius, he described Wahhabi agents in words that will be strikingly familiar to modern readers: as extremist puritans bent on dominating the Muslim world by adopting tactics reminiscent of Al-Qaeda’s calculated savagery.

          The theological and political pact between the Saud clan and the Wahhabists resulted in the fall of Mecca for the second and last time in 1924, solidifying their grip on power. After the conquest of Mecca, the vast oil wealth of the kingdom would be used to export a radical Wahhabist ideology across the globe.

          http://www.meforum.org/535/saudi-arabia-and-the-rise-of-the-wahhabi-threat

          The Wahhabi’s are by no means the sole fundamentalist influence in modern Islam – but they are by far the best funded and politically powerful. Nothing about the Middle East and the ‘Islamic threat’ makes sense unless you factor them in. Prior to the rise of Arabic Wahhabism much of the Islamic world was a relatively (by the standards of their times) liberal, educated and tolerant place.

          • adam 5.1.1.1.1

            The majority of Kurds I know are muslims, and they could not be more hated by other muslims. One of the worst fights I ever saw was between two groups of muslims in Melbourne – it was just not just an ethnic fight, as the media tried to play it at the time, but included within it – a fight over fundamental definition of what it meant to be muslim in Australia. It was a real eye opener for me.

    • Tiro 5.2

      But it looks good on the GDP graphs …

    • Minarch 5.3

      ‘Nobody is going to stick around if you’re beheading people left and right.’

      Islamic State Reportedly Minting Coins as It Struggles to Function Like an Actual State

      https://news.vice.com/article/islamic-state-reportedly-minting-coins-as-it-struggles-to-function-like-an-actual-state?utm_source=vicenewsfb

  6. Ad 6

    Interesting that there now appears no relationship between oil barrel price and Middle East instability. Petrol is comparatively cheap and projected to be so for a while.

    Its as if Kerry and the Saudis have opened their pumps to punish Russia for The Ukraine. The US-Saudi alliance in turn sends the coalition message to Iran to agree to the nuclear deal.

    And yet cheap oil punishes not only Russia but also US and Canadian heavy-oil producers who all need a fairly high barrel price. Quite a game to play, Obama.

    So which Arab petro-state is funding and provisioning IS? And for whose interests? Tanks ain’t cheap. Some good reporter needs to follow the money.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 6.1

      Thats because its a jack up between the Saudis, who see $100 barrell oil as leading to a boom using fracting and oil sands, and the US who wants the Russian and Iranian economies wrecked by lower oil prices.

      After all if Goldman Sachs and others can jack up the price of oil on every rumour of an oil refinery having an explosion, the price can be pushed down ( which makes the speculators dissappear) for geo-political reasons

      • Pascals bookie 6.1.1

        Not too sure that the US are in cahoots with the Sauds on oil price. Saudi will do what Saud wants, pretty much.

        They have started pumping it out recently though, around the time IS started being too nasty to stay undercover. Low oil price hurts both Iran and Baghdad, 2 Shia countries actually fighting on the ground against IS.

      • GregJ 6.1.2

        the US who wants the Russian and Iranian economies wrecked by lower oil prices.

        Not just the US – the Saudis are really pi$$ed at the Russians over Syria and the Russian support of Assad. Causing Iran economic discomfort is just a bonus. So the current (over)production levels in OPEC will continue until the Saudis decide otherwise (Venezuela and Iran want a production cut but OPEC requires a unanimous decision – and the Saudis are refusing to consider it).

  7. Colonial Rawshark 7

    I think everyone understands by now that western moves toward becoming a mass surveillance and para-military security state are aimed at protecting the elite 1% from the masses of ordinary citizens. Especially as economic, energy and climate conditions deteriorate over the next 10-20 years. Terrorism etc – that is just the pretext.

    • grumpystilskin 7.1

      It’s not everyone, just read fisiani’s responses in posts.
      He must be being paid by someone to write idiotic replies, the other option is too scary..

    • Gosman 7.2

      Everyone? Why are parties espousing this view not getting a greater share of the vote then? Are you seriously suggesting 30% plus of the electorate is comfortable with protecting 1% of the population by reducing their own civil liberties?

  8. ghostwhowalksnz 8

    Islamic Extremism would be less of an threat than the Suffragettes of the beginning of last century.
    Its often forgotten the hard core militants were engaged in violence

    “They burned down churches as the Church of England was against what they wanted; they vandalised Oxford Street, apparently breaking all the windows in this famous street; they chained themselves to Buckingham Palace as the Royal Family were seen to be against women having the right to vote; they hired out boats, sailed up the Thames and shouted abuse through loud hailers at Parliament as it sat; others refused to pay their tax. Politicians were attacked as they went to work. Their homes were fire bombed. Golf courses were vandalised. The first decade of Britain in the twentieth century was proving to be violent in the extreme.”

    Today, in that eccentric way typical of England, a period manor house in the Surrey suburbs has a ‘Grade 2 listed crack’ from when it was bombed by suffragettes as it was home to David Lloyd George, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/property/period property/7590914/Property-in-Surrey-The-house-the-suffragettes-bombed.html

    • RedLogix 8.1

      Yes but you confuse means with ends. The suffragettes were fighting for something worthwhile.

      Religious fundamentalists – regardless of label – are not.

      • Colonial Rawshark 8.1.1

        If the radical violent fundamentalists are going to get rid of someone we don’t like eg Assad, is there a problem with helping them do that? /sarc

        • RedLogix 8.1.1.1

          That’s what happens when geopolitics are played as a value-free game – and why the Left has been utterly out-maneuvered everywhere.

          When we allowed ourselves to abandon our internationalist origins and human rights ideals we ceded the global stage to the corporatists, think-tanks and war-hawks. And this is important because in our modern world – genuine power is wielded on a that same scale.

        • ghostwhowalksnz 8.1.1.2

          So we dont like Assad ? Its nothing to do with Assad its all about Sunni war against Shia and its offshoots ( Assad was backed by Christians and Druze as well as his own Alawites)

          Reflect for 30 secs on how ‘we didnt like Mubarak’ but loved MB who were then replaced by US friendly Mubarak look alike

          • GregJ 8.1.1.2.1

            The Muslim Brotherhood wasn’t the leader of the Egyptian Arab spring revolution though – it was the liberal opposition that lead the way. None of the Gulf States (or the North African Arab states for that matter) except for Qatar wanted the Brotherhood in charge.

            The dilemma for the Brotherhood was that they were not ready for Government but were afraid if they didn’t stand for the Presidency they would be outflanked by the hardline Islamists. Morsi was pretty much incompetent and the Brotherhood had no idea of how to rule once they got into power.

            Probably the Brotherhood should have tried to support one of the “Liberal” candidates for President – like convincing El Baradei to run or failing that Amr Moussa – and then gaining experience in the Egyptian Parliament and through Cabinet positions in a El Baredei or Moussa administration.

        • Jim 8.1.1.3

          If they are worse than Assad hell yes!

    • greywarshark 8.2

      gwwwww
      That’s a lot of interesting trivia. Thanks.
      and
      Islamic Extremism would be more of a n threat than the Suffragettes of the beginning of last centuryI Its often forgotten the hard core militants were engaged in violence. FIFY

      Suffragettes were trying to get a fair and better political system and human rights, not destroy the method of government and set up a women’s one or a Sharia one (though they probably tossed that around, which would provoke an armed raid by the men in black here no doubt when they listened in and heard that).

      When reasonable, educated people in a so-called democracy who are said to be the mothers of the nation were refused repeatedly to be given rights, they had to hurt the smug men in their tender spots, their love of property and material things as a mark of their status. (ACT is their natural Party.)

  9. fisiani 9

    This is the most preposterous post ever. Islamic extremism: not a threat.

    The writer knows more than the GCSB. The writer knows more than the PM. The writer knows the classified material as well as the publicly released information. The writer has a fully functioning crystal ball.

    No one posting here has enough knowledge to actually know the extent of any threat but to claim with no evidence that there is no threat is reckless.

    [RL: Deleted. Lose the sycophancy. Last warning.]

    • vto 9.1

      There is no credibility in anything John Key says.

      Only fools trust the GCSB

      No evidence has been outlined in detail to the NZ public about all of this.

      There is nothing
      nothing
      nothing except a cry for war

      I see now why you come across as more arse than brain all the time

    • Bunji 9.2

      We’ve been seeing a lot of National’s arse over climate change.

      I think the great WibblyWoos from the planet Troodonton are going to invade and slay us all. Therefore we need to hand all power over to me so I can save us.

      Show me the evidence that this isn’t true and I’ll accept your argument that I shouldn’t take over.
      Because I know it’s true because of all my secret evidence, even if any public evidence makes it seem preposterous.

      So really, you just need to trust me.

    • ghostwhowalksnz 9.3

      Remember when JoKey knew all about the economic recovery – in 2009.

      “Saturday, 18 July 2009 – 3:48pm
      This week we have been assailed in the media by John Key and other economic commentators by the news that the economic recovery is supposedly near at hand.”

      JoKey knew nothing back then, it was all hot air , same as now.

      So a few people want to do some ‘war tourism’, they did the same during Iraqi occupation as there were plenty of mercenary jobs around.

      Its not a big deal, as we have been given no proof any violence was intended back in NZ

    • Draco T Bastard 9.4

      Actually fisiani, you’re preposterous.

      Islamic extremism isn’t a threat because the Islamists in place will deal with it. The problem is that the West keeps going in there and bombing people creating people with vengeance in mind and then we arm them. Best thing the West could do is leave them to it while preventing arms from going into the conflagration.

      • Achtung_baby 9.4.1

        You must be joking. The Islamists will never deal with it. Where or when have you see Islamists intervening in their wars, other than massacring each other?

        • Draco T Bastard 9.4.1.1

          Possibly. It’s certainly one way of dealing with it. The English Civil War/Revolution partly came to an end because, after decades of fighting, the people got sick of killing each other. Ever since we of Anglo-Saxon descent have been somewhat wary of war.

          • Clean_power 9.4.1.1.1

            Surely not possibly. Some of those barbarians have been killing each other since the 7th century, all in the name of Allah.

            • joe90 9.4.1.1.1.1

              Amateurs, since 1914 our lot has topped 80 million in the name of who fucking knows.

            • felix 9.4.1.1.1.2

              Best we get over there and show them how it’s done then.

              Seriously though C_p, that is all you and fizzy are putting on the table.

      • Gosman 9.4.2

        The West doesn’t always go in to places where Islamic extremism is causing problems. Many parts of North Africa have little to no Western intervention yet Islamic extremism is on the rise.

        The West tried leaving them to it (as you so quaintly put it) in places like Afghanistan between the mid 1990’s and 2001 and look what happened.

        • joe90 9.4.2.1

          Many parts of North Africa have little to no Western intervention yet Islamic extremism is on the rise.

          Nah.

          http://jb-hdnp.org/Sarver/Maps/WC/wc13_coloniesafricam.jpg

          • Gosman 9.4.2.1.1

            Ummm… what has what the Europeans did in Africa 50 plus years ago got to do with things?

            • felix 9.4.2.1.1.1

              What has western intervention got to do with western intervention?

            • joe90 9.4.2.1.1.2

              Most of these conflicts have anti-colonial struggles as their genesis, a forever war – from the taking up of arms to win wars of independence to civil war to todays wars of religion.

            • Minarch 9.4.2.1.1.3

              are you serious…….

              were you paying attention in history class, or did you drop out ?

        • adam 9.4.2.2

          Bollocks Gosman and you know it. The US and the British were funding groups all across Afghanistan in the 90’s and 2000’s. Where do you think the title of the movie, Charlie Wilson’s War came from? The funds didn’t taper off with the withdraw of the soviet’s. Nor did it stop with the rise of the Taliban. Who funded the Warlords, Elvis?

          Little or no intervention in North Africa, please, what rock have you been living under? Libya, Egypt and Morocco have had active intervention in one way or another by western powers to help sustain the tinpot regimes in these regions. By buying oil, air strikes, having torture operations, or many of the other subtle means of influence and support of these corrupt regimes in power right across North Africa. Are you calling the locals stupid?

          Come on Gossy, you know the west helps creates the opportunities for these nut jobs to flourish. Fighting another war against an ideology/theology won’t help. Nor will turning a blind eye to the sickening behaviour of our so called allies in this.

          • Gosman 9.4.2.2.1

            Please note I stated from the mid 1990’s t0 2001. The West lost interest in Afghanistan after the fall of the Soviet backed regime. That is why Pakistan’s ISI stepped in to the void and helped create the Taliban.

            • adam 9.4.2.2.1.1

              Yes and no, I agree with the you on the ISI and their aid to the Taliban. But there was still funding of the Warlords throughout this period.

              Actually I have no idea what to call them apart from Warlords, even though Warlords are a common feature of Afghan History. Hell even post Soviet Russia was funding Warlords. The Great Game carries on, it has never really stopped.

        • GregJ 9.4.2.3

          Many parts of North Africa have little to no Western intervention

          What aside from the French troops in Mali and the Central African Republic, the cooperation with Mauritania, Burkina Faso and Chad to fight Islamists such as AQIM, the French led airstrikes in Libya, the EU training and support of African Union troops fighting al-Shabaab in Somalia, anti-piracy operations off the Somali coast…

    • KJS0ne 9.5

      “No one posting here has enough knowledge to actually know the extent of any threat”

      – Least of all a John Key lickspittle like yourself.

      One thing is absolutely for sure, regardless of the threat – Non existent or otherwise – National are using ISIS in order to rescind individual liberty and play lap dog to Obama by sending our troops to another war zone, and that should be a problem for all authentic human beings liberal and conservative alike.

      Goering, when he wasn’t high as shit, was incredibly pragmatic about the ol’ game:

      “The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

      • Gosman 9.5.1

        Why should sending “our” troops to another war zone be seen as a problem for all “authentic” human beings liberal and conservative alike?

        • felix 9.5.1.1

          Why the “” around the word “our”?

          Who’s troops do you think they are?

          (serious question)

        • KJS0ne 9.5.1.2

          The individual liberty rescindment should be a concern to true torries as much as it should be to liberals. Sending our troops was added after with less thought towards congruity re: conservatives. Though if one were of a Libertarian bent, an involvement in a region on the otherside of the planet for no fundamental purpose other than to kowtow to the whims and fancies of the Obama adminstration, thus placing a giant red target on our backs would justly be seen as idiotic foreign policy. Even looking at it purely from the perspective of self interest , there is little to be gained from being so eager to be the USA’s lap dog.

    • emergency mike 9.6

      It’s up to Key and co to present evidence of an Islamist threat in order to justify sending NZ troops. What he’s given so far is a bunch of flimsy distortions, and the ol’ “It’s classified, but trust me,” isn’t good enough on it’s own.

      Maybe “coz John Key said so” is good enough for you to see your countrymen shipped off to fight, but I think you’ve spent enough time on The Standard to not be too surprised if it’s not good enough for folk around here.

  10. Sable 10

    No but we do have idiot politicians getting into bed with the US on foreign policy matters, a country more on less permanently at war with the Middle East, which in turn stands to make us a target by proxy. The Keys governments toadying attitude to the US is the real problem here as per usual. Yet another problem that could have been avoided simply by staying out of it.

  11. Tracey 11

    Genuine question.

    do these videos actually show the beheadings as they happen?

    • Matthew Hooton 11.1

      Are you concerned they might be fake?

      • vto 11.1.1

        Are they not real Matthew?

        Show us the money …

        • Matthew Hooton 11.1.1.1

          I assume they are real and understand they actually show the beheadings. I am just interested in Tracey’s motivation for her question.

          • felix 11.1.1.1.1

            It would be a bit weird though, wouldn’t it, if the world was going full Farrar over videos of beheadings and no-one noticed that there were no beheadings in them.

            Wouldn’t it?

            Not that I would know, I haven’t seen them either.

            • tinfoilhat 11.1.1.1.1.1

              They videos in question are sickening I would advise everyone to avoid viewing them.

              • felix

                I can only find photos.

                Have you seen videos that actually show heads being cut off?

                • BM

                  Not that I’ve seen them or into that sort of thing but if you do want to see these acts and other unbelievably brutal and nasty stuff.
                  This is the website for you.

                  http://www.bestgore.com

                  • joe90

                    You’re not a /b fan?.

                  • felix

                    So BM hasn’t seen them either.

                    Has anyone seen a video that actually shows a beheading?

                    Starting to feel like the emperor’s new murder…

                    • BM

                      No, but there’s a video of the latest one on the first page.

                      I just don’t want to watch some poor bastard getting his head sawn off .

                    • Could you check BM’s link. I don’t want to.

                    • felix

                      Ok, I had a look just for you Matthew.

                      It contains some throat-slitting, John Key style.

                      It’s fronted by a man who sounds like Ali-G.

                      There’s lots of before/after stuff, i.e. a row of infidels kneeling waiting to be slaughtered followed by a row of bodies with heads removed.

                      What happens in between is difficult to say. These are not home movies shot on someone’s phone, they are quite elaborate productions. Multiple camera angles, carefully scripted action, slow/fast motion effects, dubbed foley and atmospheric sound elements, very dramatic quick editing with lots of cutting to black at crucial moments.

                      The whole thing looks and feels like a scene from a hollywood action film, it seems designed to give an impression rather than to document an event.

                      I can say I definitely saw what looked like someone’s throat being slit.

                      I can also say I definitely didn’t see anyone’s head being cut off.

    • TheContrarian 11.2

      The idea that the videos are faked fails the Occams Razor test.

      • felix 11.2.1

        That wasn’t the question.

        Tracey was asking whether the videos actually showed beheadings or not.

      • les 11.2.2

        on what logic?

        • McFlock 11.2.2.1

          Because the footage claims to be evidence that someone has been murdered in a particularly brutal way.

          Firstly, the victims can’t be seen walking around later. Easiest way to do that is to murder them.

          Secondly, faking the video means you still need to kill the victims, and the video might be identified as fake.

          Thirdly, even if the video is real, opponents might argue it is fake, just to call the murderers liars or wusses. So the video needs to be as explicit as possible. More difficult to fake.

          So you’ve got people in the middle of a war zone going to great lengths to pretend to kill someone who they really kill someone in a different manner at some other time.

          OR

          You’ve got some hard-core bastards using exceptional brutality as a psychological weapon to keep the West engaged and bleeding itself in a cosmic war.

          • RedLogix 11.2.2.1.1

            Their calculus is indeed brutal. They do not have the military capacity to defeat the West. They do not even constitute a majority of Muslims – who want nothing more than to carry on quiet lives. In the conventional sense they are relatively impotent.

            But if they goad us into military retaliation they can count on us generating a steady stream of recruits to their cause. It becomes a self-perpetuating war – with no possibility of the West defeating them short of killing every one of the aprox 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and successfully expunging the memory of Islam from human memory.

            They’re counting on us not being willing to do this and at some point (after who knows how many millions have been sacrificed to this strategy) – the West simply caves in to their superior moral force.

            We have two options: find a way engage the majority of ordinary Muslims in the modern world so that they themselves reject the ISIS brand of fundamentalism.

            Or Plan B as mentioned above. After all it’s more or less how the Romans finished up dealing with the original ‘Palestine problem’ some 2000 years ago.

            • McFlock 11.2.2.1.1.1

              pretty much.

              I’m actually pretty loathe to even frame it as a “Muslim” thing. Seems to me that religion’s just a handy totem for the regional movement to latch onto, rather than the movement being a byproduct or extreme of the religion. Like how the norse/germanic/aryn vibe was for the nazza-matazzies, or other similar mythologies of other brutal movements of social exclusivity.

              edit: yuss, my fiendish use of codewords avoided automoderation 🙂

              • RedLogix

                shit – I was rather hoping you’d come up with a Plan C McF …

                • McFlock

                  Reeboks.

                  thirty years of massive investment to eliminate extreme poverty across the world and put most people in the middle class. Relax population surveillance, reward regimes for democratisation, lose the Security Council vetos, work on food and water supplies.

                  And try not to globally lose our shit whenever a few nutters get lucky with a strike.

                  edit: excuse the handwavy shit. The world would be awesome if I was global dictator, but then most people probably think the same thing about themselves to greater or lesser degrees 🙂

                  • RedLogix

                    Exactly – Plan A.

                    Which is why capitalism’s ever expanding inequality is so dangerous. While in the local NZ context it’s corrosive and demeaning – on a global scale it threatens everything.

                    It’s one more component in my thesis that left made a terrible mistake in abandoning it’s original Internationalist values at the end of the Cold War.

                  • weka

                    “thirty years of massive investment to eliminate extreme poverty across the world and put most people in the middle class. Relax population surveillance, reward regimes for democratisation, lose the Security Council vetos, work on food and water supplies.”

                    Have to put that in a context of resource depletion and AGW though. Redefining what middle class is would help. I’d settle for everyone having shelter, nutrition and localised food security, education, social stability/safety etc rather than home ownership and being able to buy the latest iphone. Some of us would have to give up some things.

                    • McFlock

                      yes, and there will also be a transition period before the lower birthrate from relative security results in a sustained demographic shift. Isn’t there a state something like half of the ME population is under 20/25?

                      A bit like AGW, the easier comfort levels of change to stop the problem were thirty years ago, and it’s getting exponentially more painful.

                      Although on the flipside the tech curve seems to be improving on a number of fronts, particulalry battery energy density.

                    • RedLogix

                      And it may turn out that cold fusion works after all:

                      http://www.e-catworld.com/

                    • RedLogix

                      On the other hand you might want to watch this:

                      http://pro.moneymappress.com/EADZEROSH/WEADQA07/?pub=ead&h=true

                      Someone please tell me this is hogwash. He sounds like a huckster – but then:

                      http://www.businessinsider.com.au/lockheed-martin-desalination-graphene-filters-2013-3

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      Ah yes Pakistan vs India…that’s a problem area as ever. But as the commentator says, now they have nukes.

                      As for defusing the Middle East and halting the recruitment of radicals to ISIS/ISIL/etc. Austerity throughout Europe certainly isn’t helping. Of course, there is much more culpability than that.

                      The west funds, arms and props up hard line dictatorships (friends) throughout the Middle East. The House of Saud is but one clear example. And while Israel is nominally a liberal western style democracy – that is so only if you are not an Arab or a Palestinian. The stationing of a massive US military presence in all of these countries also causes a lot of dissent in many of the countries – dissent which is typically ignored or suppressed.

                      And now, NZ wants to join in the century long western party over there.

    • Minarch 11.3

      They’ll be real alright..

      they learnt that move from the Chechens, they were beheading russian soldiers on the Internet well over a decade ago

  12. All religious extremists scare me but I find nothing more awful about extremists who are Muslim than extremists who are Jewish, Christian or Hindu.

    When the USA and its allies (especially Australia) conspired with reactionary forces in Indonesia to overthrow Sukarno in 1965/66, they set in train one of the worst (and least commented on) acts of genocide of the 20th century. No-one knows how many died but estimates range from 500,000 to 2 million.

    The army, under the control of right wing generals, armed and trained devout Muslims. Muslim clerics in Java and Sumatra proclaimed that the extermination of communists constituted Holy War so for many young Muslims, the killing of communists, or anyone suspected of being a communist or sympathetic to communists, became a religious duty that they carried out with extraordinary brutality. Communists and suspected communists were shot, beheaded, strangled, or had their throats slit by the military and Islamic groups.

    In Bali. Hindu religious leaders and high caste rich landlords called on devout Hindus to kill communists as the enemies of religion. An estimated 80,000 Balinese men, women and children were slaughtered between December 1965 and early 1966 – about 5 percent of the island’s population and a higher death rate proportionately than anywhere else in Indonesia.

    The Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt said : “With 500,000 to 1 million Communist sympathizers knocked off, I think it is safe to assume a reorientation has taken place.”

    Who’s scary and barbaric?

    • RedLogix 12.1

      All religious extremists scare me but I find nothing more awful about extremists who are Muslim than extremists who are Jewish, Christian or Hindu.

      Something I absolutely agree with.

      BTW – how odd you should mention Holt. I happened to look at the peculiar circumstances of his disappearance just this morning.

  13. the last thing NZ should be doing is fueling the war machine by shipping supplies of Ammo & Weapons ect to the Middle East, there is so much complexity involved in the true story, I’ve given up on the NZ MSM to provide any real information about what is really going on in the world ,the latest top story’s are things like Kim Kardashions Butt, so I recommend to everyone interested to research elsewhere to keep informed. to save me typing what most people should (or already) know about ISIS (& to spare you having to read a long post) I highly recommend that you find the time to watch
    ‘The Covert Origins of ISIS’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMjXbuj7BPI

  14. wtl 14

    While the story of the murder of an American hostage by some extremists half way around the world is making headline news, I thought that we should remember that over the weekend, three young New Zealanders were killed in a fire. A recent report quotes a public health specialist as saying that this is a consequence of the lack of regulation in the rental housing market – landlords do not have to ensure that smoke alarms are present in their properties. More tellingly, the spokesperson for a landlords association refuses to acknowledge this problem, and simply makes up an excuse: “even if the smoke alarms were compulsory, the tenants might remove the batteries” (paraphrasing).

    If we are serious about protecting our citizens from harm, maybe we in New Zealand put things in perspective and consider where our real priorities should be ?

    • RedLogix 14.1

      More tellingly, the spokesperson for a landlords association refuses to acknowledge this problem, and simply makes up an excuse: “even if the smoke alarms were compulsory, the tenants might remove the batteries” (paraphrasing).

      Ours have alarms, extinguishers and several have sprinklers. Beat that.

      But the batteries are always removed. Everytime.

      • Colonial Rawshark 14.1.1

        Interesting. Why is that? To prevent false alarms? To allow people to smoke in doors? To save on the costs of replacing a 9V batt?

        • RedLogix 14.1.1.1

          Most of the time it’s a false alarm due to cooking I think. Not really sure why.

          One thing that should be mandatory in my view are the new generation of cost-effective fire sprinklers. Much more effective.

          http://www.renovate.org.nz/villa/common-problems-and-remedies/fire-safety/

          http://www.leapltd.co.nz/our-products/fire-sprinklers/blazestop.html

          Heavily subsidise them and make them compulsory for all new builds and renovates over a certain value. Last thing the gnats would do – far sooner send soldiers to far-off wars.

          We do seem to have drifted rather off topic 🙂

          • felix 14.1.1.1.1

            “Most of the time it’s a false alarm due to cooking I think.”

            Yep, seen that lots of times. Done it myself. Alarm goes off while cooking, you push the button, it stops, you carry on cooking, it goes off again, you push the button, it stops, you carry on cooking, it goes off again, you disable the bloody thing.

            And with the best will in the world, for some reason I always forget to put the batteries back in.

        • Murray Rawshark 14.1.1.2

          Toasters can set them off. They’re too sensitive.

      • greywarshark 14.1.2

        And one landlord said that there was a mix of working people in his properties and a large number of them have removed smoke alarm batteries for various reasons.

        Then there is the situation where they go off and can’t be stopped, though nothing is happening. And they shouldn’t be installed so close to stovetops etc that they are so easily spooked.

        Another problem. They start peeping that they are low – in the night – have to get some sleep. It’s not all peachy with them. I didn’t know some were biased to heat and some to smoke! Then if you are short you have to find a way to get up to ceiiling level. Drag table over. Stand chair on box or box on chair. Not everyone has steps. Wait for tall person to visit.

        And just to segue back to topic – I think that problems and disasters from cooking fires etc are more likely than Islamic extremism.
        edited

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    4 days ago
  • That Word.
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    Nick’s KōreroBy Nick Rockel
    5 days ago
  • The Hoon around the week to March 15
    Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:PM Christopher Luxon said the reversal of interest deductibility for landlords was done to help renters, who ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Labour’s policy gap
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    PolitikBy Richard Harman
    5 days ago
  • Skeptical Science New Research for Week #11 2024
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  • Melissa remains mute on media matters but has something to say (at a sporting event) about economic ...
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    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    5 days ago
  • The return of Muldoon
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    5 days ago
  • Will the rental tax cut improve life for renters or landlords?
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Geoffrey Miller: What Saudi Arabia’s rapid changes mean for New Zealand
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    5 days ago
  • Racism’s double standards
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • It’s not a tax break
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • The Plastic Pig Collective and Chris' Imaginary Friends.
    I can't remember when it was goodMoments of happiness in bloomMaybe I just misunderstoodAll of the love we left behindWatching our flashbacks intertwineMemories I will never findIn spite of whatever you becomeForget that reckless thing turned onI think our lives have just begunI think our lives have just begunDoes anyone ...
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    5 days ago
  • Who is responsible for young offenders?
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    5 days ago
  • Gordon Campbell on National’s fantasy trip to La La Landlord Land
    How much political capital is Christopher Luxon willing to burn through in order to deliver his $2.9 billion gift to landlords? Evidently, Luxon is: (a) unable to cost the policy accurately. As Anna Burns-Francis pointed out to him on Breakfast TV, the original ”rock solid” $2.1 billion cost he was ...
    5 days ago
  • Bernard's Top 10 @ 10 'pick 'n' mix' for March 14
    TL;DR: My top 10 news and analysis links this morning include:Today’s must-read: Jonathon Porritt calling bullshit in his own blog post on mainstream climate science as ‘The New Denialism’.Local scoop: The Wellington City Council’s list of proposed changes to the IHP recommendations to be debated later today was leaked this ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • No, Prime Minister, rents don’t rise or fall with landlords’ costs
    TL;DR: Prime Minister Christopher Luxon said yesterday tenants should be grateful for the reinstatement of interest deductibility because landlords would pass on their lower tax costs in the form of lower rents. That would be true if landlords were regulated monopolies such as Transpower or Auckland Airport1, but they’re not, ...
    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago
  • Cartoons: ‘At least I didn’t make things awkward’
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  • Solving traffic congestion with Richard Prebble
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    5 days ago
  • I Think I'm Done Flying Boeing
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    6 days ago
  • Invoking Aristotle: Of Rings of Power, Stones, and Ships
    The first season of Rings of Power was not awful. It was thoroughly underwhelming, yes, and left a lingering sense of disappointment, but it was more expensive mediocrity than catastrophe. I wrote at length about the series as it came out (see the Review section of the blog, and go ...
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  • Van Velden brings free-market approach to changing labour laws – but her colleagues stick to distr...
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    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • Why Newshub failed
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    6 days ago
  • Māori Party on the warpath against landlords and seabed miners – let’s see if mystical creature...
    Bob Edlin writes  –  The Māori Party has been busy issuing a mix of warnings and threats as its expresses its opposition to interest deductibility for landlords and the plans of seabed miners. It remains to be seen whether they  follow the example of indigenous litigants in Australia, ...
    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    6 days ago
  • There’s a name for this
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    6 days ago

  • Government moves to quickly ratify the NZ-EU FTA
    "The Government is moving quickly to realise an additional $46 million in tariff savings in the EU market this season for Kiwi exporters,” Minister for Trade and Agriculture, Todd McClay says. Parliament is set, this week, to complete the final legislative processes required to bring the New Zealand – European ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 hours ago
  • Positive progress for social worker workforce
    New Zealand’s social workers are qualified, experienced, and more representative of the communities they serve, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “I want to acknowledge and applaud New Zealand’s social workers for the hard work they do, providing invaluable support for our most vulnerable. “To coincide with World ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    7 hours ago
  • Minister confirms reduced RUC rate for PHEVs
    Cabinet has agreed to a reduced road user charge (RUC) rate for plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. Owners of PHEVs will be eligible for a reduced rate of $38 per 1,000km once all light electric vehicles (EVs) move into the RUC system from 1 April.  ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    9 hours ago
  • Trade access to overseas markets creates jobs
    Minister of Agriculture and Trade, Todd McClay, says that today’s opening of Riverland Foods manufacturing plant in Christchurch is a great example of how trade access to overseas markets creates jobs in New Zealand.  Speaking at the official opening of this state-of-the-art pet food factory the Minister noted that exports ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    10 hours ago
  • NZ and Chinese Foreign Ministers hold official talks
    Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters met with Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi in Wellington today. “It was a pleasure to host Foreign Minister Wang Yi during his first official visit to New Zealand since 2017. Our discussions were wide-ranging and enabled engagement on many facets of New Zealand’s relationship with China, including trade, ...
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    23 hours ago
  • Kāinga Ora instructed to end Sustaining Tenancies
    Kāinga Ora – Homes & Communities has been instructed to end the Sustaining Tenancies Framework and take stronger measures against persistent antisocial behaviour by tenants, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Earlier today Finance Minister Nicola Willis and I sent an interim Letter of Expectations to the Board of Kāinga Ora. ...
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    1 day ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber: Growth is the answer
    Tēna koutou katoa. Greetings everyone. Thank you to the Auckland Chamber of Commerce and the Honourable Simon Bridges for hosting this address today. I acknowledge the business leaders in this room, the leaders and governors, the employers, the entrepreneurs, the investors, and the wealth creators. The coalition Government shares your ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 days ago
  • Singapore rounds out regional trip
    Minister Winston Peters completed the final leg of his visit to South and South East Asia in Singapore today, where he focused on enhancing one of New Zealand’s indispensable strategic partnerships.      “Singapore is our most important defence partner in South East Asia, our fourth-largest trading partner and a ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Minister van Velden represents New Zealand at International Democracy Summit
    Minister of Internal Affairs and Workplace Relations and Safety, Hon. Brooke van Velden, will travel to the Republic of Korea to represent New Zealand at the Third Summit for Democracy on 18 March. The summit, hosted by the Republic of Korea, was first convened by the United States in 2021, ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Insurance Council of NZ Speech, 7 March 2024, Auckland
    ICNZ Speech 7 March 2024, Auckland  Acknowledgements and opening  Mōrena, ngā mihi nui. Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Nor Whanganui aho.  Good morning, it’s a privilege to be here to open the ICNZ annual conference, thank you to Mark for the Mihi Whakatau  My thanks to Tim Grafton for inviting me ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Five-year anniversary of Christchurch terror attacks
    Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Lead Coordination Minister Judith Collins have expressed their deepest sympathy on the five-year anniversary of the Christchurch terror attacks. “March 15, 2019, was a day when families, communities and the country came together both in sorrow and solidarity,” Mr Luxon says.  “Today we pay our respects to the 51 shuhada ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Speech for Financial Advice NZ Conference 5 March 2024
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    4 days ago
  • Early visit to Indonesia strengthens ties
    Foreign Minister Winston Peters held discussions in Jakarta today about the future of relations between New Zealand and South East Asia’s most populous country.   “We are in Jakarta so early in our new government’s term to reflect the huge importance we place on our relationship with Indonesia and South ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    5 days ago
  • China Foreign Minister to visit
    Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Winston Peters has announced that the Foreign Minister of China, Wang Yi, will visit New Zealand next week.  “We look forward to re-engaging with Foreign Minister Wang Yi and discussing the full breadth of the bilateral relationship, which is one of New Zealand’s ...
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    5 days ago
  • Minister opens new Auckland Rail Operations Centre
    Transport Minister Simeon Brown has today opened the new Auckland Rail Operations Centre, which will bring together KiwiRail, Auckland Transport, and Auckland One Rail to improve service reliability for Aucklanders. “The recent train disruptions in Auckland have highlighted how important it is KiwiRail and Auckland’s rail agencies work together to ...
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    5 days ago
  • Celebrating 10 years of Crankworx Rotorua
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  • Government delivering on tax commitments
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    5 days ago
  • Significant Natural Areas requirement to be suspended
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    5 days ago
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    5 days ago
  • Government partnership to tackle $332m facial eczema problem
    The Government is helping farmers eradicate the significant impact of facial eczema (FE) in pastoral animals, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced.  “A $20 million partnership jointly funded by Beef + Lamb NZ, the Government, and the primary sector will save farmers an estimated NZD$332 million per year, and aims to ...
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    5 days ago
  • NZ, India chart path to enhanced relationship
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    6 days ago
  • Ruapehu Alpine Lifts bailout the last, say Ministers
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    6 days ago
  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
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  • Govt takes action to drive better cancer services
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
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    6 days ago
  • Work begins on SH29 upgrades near Tauriko
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Fresh produce price drop welcome
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    6 days ago
  • Statement to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the sixty-eighth session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
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  • Speech to the 68th United Nations Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68)
    Tēnā koutou katoa and greetings to you all.  Chair, I am honoured to address the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women. I acknowledge the many crises impacting the rights of women and girls. Heightened global tensions, war, climate related and humanitarian disasters, and price inflation all ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    6 days ago
  • Government backs rural led catchment projects
    The coalition Government is supporting farmers to enhance land management practices by investing $3.3 million in locally led catchment groups, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced. “Farmers and growers deliver significant prosperity for New Zealand and it’s vital their ongoing efforts to improve land management practices and water quality are supported,” ...
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    6 days ago
  • Speech to Auckland Business Chamber
    Good evening everyone and thank you for that lovely introduction.   Thank you also to the Honourable Simon Bridges for the invitation to address your members. Since being sworn in, this coalition Government has hit the ground running with our 100-day plan, delivering the changes that New Zealanders expect of us. ...
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    1 week ago
  • Commission’s advice on ETS settings tabled
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    1 week ago
  • Government lowering building costs
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    1 week ago
  • Trustee tax change welcomed
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    1 week ago
  • Minister’s Ramadan message
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    1 week ago
  • Minister appoints new NZTA Chair
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    1 week ago
  • Speech to Life Sciences Summit
    Good morning all, it is a pleasure to be here as Minister of Science, Innovation and Technology.  It is fantastic to see how connected and collaborative the life science and biotechnology industry is here in New Zealand. I would like to thank BioTechNZ and NZTech for the invitation to address ...
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    1 week ago
  • Progress continues apace on water storage
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    1 week ago
  • Government agrees to restore interest deductions
    Associate Finance Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government has agreed to restore deductibility for mortgage interest on residential investment properties. “Help is on the way for landlords and renters alike. The Government’s restoration of interest deductibility will ease pressure on rents and simplify the tax code,” says ...
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    1 week ago
  • Minister to attend World Anti-Doping Agency Symposium
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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    1 week ago

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