Written By: - Date published: 5:28 pm, July 29th, 2010 - 241 comments
Categories: labour, phil goff -
Tags: chris carter
It sounds like Chris Carter has shot himself in the foot, or rather in the handwriting. Phil Goff and the caucus look like they have taken the required quick and decisive action.
MP Chris Carter has been suspended from the Labour Party after admitting to sending an anonymous letter claiming there is a plot to overthrow leader Phil Goff.
“His actions were stupid and disloyal,” Labour leader Phil Goff told a press conference this afternoon.
“There are no more chances. His future in the Labour Party is at an end.”
Mr Goff said Labour’s caucus had met today and a unanimous decision was taken to suspend him from the caucus
This is annoying at many levels. But the primary one is that I can’t see any damn reason to monkey around with the leadership before the election.
“The content of his letter, while not true, was designed to damage the party I lead,” Mr Goff said in his post-press conference statement.
“It was stupid and disloyal. His actions breached caucus rules and were calculated to damage the party and the leadership. This is unacceptable to me and my caucus.
I’m not interested in having a merry-go-around of leadership as we saw at the end of the 4th Labour government. It does nothing for the party and quite a lot to damage it. Stroking individual MPs egos and having a vicarious burst of excitement mid-term may liven up parliament and the political commentators lives. However it does absolutely nothing for the hardworking volunteers within the party.
If anyone is such a dickhead as to actually thinking about this kind of stupidity, then you can expect my very vocal opposition. If you don’t like what Phil has been saying – then don’t form factional cabals or write idiotic letters. Go and argue it in caucus, inside the party, or if you really feel strongly about it – write a post here.
It will be interesting to see what Chris decides to do. Hopefully not a distracting by-election. At least if it does come to that we’ll have some fun demonstrating to National that the Mt Albert by-election was no fluke.
I hate political stupidity!
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Right now Carter is creaming the limelight. In six months after the party has kicked him out it ‘ll be “Carter who?’
Goff looked and acted like a leader. I just got a feeling that this is going tp play out very well for him especially now at atime when NACT’S wheels are staring to wobble.
Goff looked and acted like a leader. I just got a feeling that this is going tp play out very well for him
…i get the feeling it is only an act and that it wont play out well for him at all well in the long run cos he doesn’t know how to play it.
to underplay it or overplay it…hmmm watch this space
of course, now all Goff has to do is lose the election and Carter’s view is vindicated, then it’ll be “Goff who?”
It’s not an act.
So after campaigning against Nats changes in employment law (Some justifiable) we now have Phil not only supporting this against Labs commentary on the changes, but what is worse he is slowly becomming the apprentice to the master … how could I say this … BUT wait
JAMIE MACKAY: Phil, you and I will agree to disagree on that one. What about cashing in some of your holidays for money?
PHIL GOFF: Well, I don’t have huge objections to that, as long as the decision is freely arrived at by the worker, and the worker is not pressured to do it. If you’ve got that safeguard in, then if somebody chooses to do that, then I’m quite relaxed about it.
“He steals Keys punchline in “I’m quite relaxed about it.” Is that not a breach of copy write?
Goffs continuing attempts at aping Key have only failed to attract notice because they’ve been so inept.
I am as pissed off as Carter on that – well not AS pissed off.
Labour created the 4th week.
Workers will be manipulated into selling it.
Is Goff gonna sell out the workers some more or is that it?
National Lite Vs Hard Labour is it gonna be at the next election?
Low income be it wages or benefit takes away your freedom.
Poverty is the pressure.
Interestig comments here by Brian Edwards
http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz/2010/07/10-questions-and-answers-about-what-chris-carter-did/
Yes, I’d agree Edwards has pretty much got it right.
I have to add that in my comment above I didn’t make this plain .. while I understand and empathise with Carter’s position and motives, his political career is at an end. There will be no coming back from this and in that sense it is all a stupid personal tragedy for Carter.
If on the other hand this puts some fire into a few leftie belly’s then it will have been a price worth paying.
In the interests of the horses mouth and all that….
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10662152
Note the first word in the transcript- “Just”.
If ever there was a misuse of a little word, that was it.
I am very disappointed with Chris Carter. I hope that the Labour caucus in its unanimity over its decision to support Goff reflects the view that the prize is too big, the stakes too high and the effect upon NZ too great, for any personal agenda outside NZLP agreed values and processes.
The messenger is an idiot, and the means of communication idiotic, but the message is basically correct. Goff is a nice guy, but he can’t win, and he can’t even land a punch on Key, or worse, on the inept team of buffoons behind him.
Cunliffe, Parker, Mallard and Street must all be thinking about next Tuesday pretty seriously. Although god help the NZLP if the unelectable Street gets anywhere near the leadership.
Wow!
But why can’t Goff land a punch on Key?
This blog is full of all the inept and dastardly actions that Key is responsible for.
Surely the opposition doesn’t really need to do anything other than sit back and watch their support bloom and the National parties support wither away.
Why is Street unelectable dcred? She seems OK, so what are her bad qualities? She is a list candidate I think, representing Labour in Nelson, National Nick Smith’s stamping ground.
The comment reminds me of those against Judith Tizard – I didn’t understand the depth of discontent there either.
I wonder if Goff will benefit much from this in terms of looking strong. I think this situation so obviously required that Carter be sacked that it is more a case that he would have looked incredibly insipid and weak if he hadn’t acted immediately.
The bigger problem for Labour is that people might pick up on Carter’s message, and also take the “where theres smoke theres fire” outlook.
ha ha ha ha
Now how in any confidence could New Zealanders vote for party to lead a new government when the party’s leadership is under public contestation?!
Roll on term-two. Time for the big decisions to be made.
All parties change leadership from time to time; as you may recall Helen Clark while leader of Labour saw more than a few National leaders come and go. It’s a natural part of politics and the day will come when it happens to National again.
Your ‘not so innocent’ gloating about it on the other hand merely reveals what an uncivil person you are.
Red, if Labour really has little or no chance of winning the next election under Goff, then why not change leader now? Surely there can be very little risk in giving it a go.
Its it is called step change. You will not always achieve the correct destination with a change. Yet the process may stregthen those inside the organisation in a well managed way. To much to quickly can result in KAOS ans subsequent undermining of that organisation. The process is what is important to achieve the desired results.
“To much to quickly can result in KAOS”
Killing As Organised Sport, or have I confused it?
ah so when labour do it, it’s a process that may strengthen. when the national government practise step-change, they are do-nothings. I get it now.
Sounds like the idiot had been to Tibet on the public tab, without caucus permission. Not so repentant about travel spending after all.
If he has been to Tibet on the public tab, without caucus permission then if he says he might stand as an independent he might be charged for illegal spending. If he stays he will be well protected and there will be nothing to see here and we should move on.
Your move Chris, do a Taito and run the risk of being held accountable for all you have done or sit like a good lap dog and be defeneded for trying to help people.
Burt – Carter doesn’t have to make any moves. He is the elected MP for Te Atatu until the next election, regardless of whether he is a member of Labour’s caucus or ebven the Labour Party. Labour can do absolutely nothing to force his hand.
Indeed, unless of course he hasn’t declared the ‘gift’ from the Chinese govt to travel to Tibet. So was it a gift or was it official business? Why the secrecy?
Labour have two options: Keep Goff and lose the next election. Or shift Goff and close the gap of probability. Which would they prefer? Which is more irritating: unpaid volunteers fighting losing battle with fake enthusiasm. Or unpaid volunteers under new leadership with a real chance? It seems most are just pissed that Carter forced them to wake up before 6am.
I’m sure every comment possible has already been penned in the 112 comments above but just need to add another 2c…
I recall Tau Henare bemoaning the lack fo respect that politicians get. I laughed when he said that. And now Carter provides yet more crap to the political-childish behaviour scrapbook. I have never understood why those elected see themselves as some form of leadership. They rarely show any form of quality human-wide traits of leadership. I mean, in most any other workplace if you have a problem with your boss you bring it up in a professional manner and deal with it. Carter misses every single button on this card. And buffoons like Carter have the nerve to sit in parliament telling us all how to behave in a workplace environment. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ……… they wonder why they get no respect.
Secondly, he has done everything he can to reinforce those old cliches and generalisations about gay men. You know, buying flowers on the bosses tab, throwing hissy fits, writing anonymous notes, and generally acting like a girl. Pathetic man.
Are you engaged in corporate circles? Those things happen often, from some big fat bullying macho males too. There is nothing that is unacceptable, unprofessional, unallowable, unforgiveable or new in politics or commerce.
Hang on, that sounds like that other old one that all’s fair in love and war. That means that its no holds barred for politics, war, love and commerce.
I do like the fact that your thread title is right next to a picture of the (current) leader of the Parliamentary wing of the Labour Party. Very apt.
It was the Herald photo of Goff at the press conference announcing the Chris Carter was being dropped from caucus. It is highly apt… But I guess you have problems reading the words?
Why would you think that lprent?
I don’t think I need to spell out what I was meaning or if I do then really that is your problem not mine.
If Carter departs parliament you might want to sell any Air NZ shares you have pretty quickly.
Carter is an idiot but Goff ran an inept dirty-tricks campaign against him that has just backfired spectacularly. I can’t think of two people that deserve each other more.
And what dirty tricks campaign would that be? The one where phil goff sneakily runs up huge travel bills by travelling under chris’s name? or how he pulled the dirty on chris by sending lianne dalzell flowers when she got the elbow, and signing the card cwis?
or how phil only bumped him six places down the list after the fiasco that was chris’ credit card? and offered the olive branch?
honestly, you are insulting.
Kindof agree with the post.
Carter should have openly come out and said that Goff will not help Labour form a government in 2011. The letter is embarrassing for Chris but personally I think he’s absolutely right about the assertion that GOFF SHOULD GO, NOW!
Leadership honeymoon period anyone?
Carter unbalanced…. Of course it’s the stress from all that travel we made him do. He needs a rest and a big ACC payout…..
Ah, a good old fashioned stoush. Overdue. It relieves the tedium of long southern nights at the last bus stop before the south pole. A bit of old-fashioned truth-telling never did anyone any harm. I think that Carter has done us all a big favour in rocking the dinghy.
Frankly, before this all blew up I was in despair about the quality of Labour’s leadership. Key has had it his own way for too long – to the point that he has has the press gallery (the ‘chooks’ in Thatcherian jargon) eating out of his hand.
Whatever Goff’s personal qualities may be, he was implicated in the Rogernomic reforms of the 1980s (watch any of Alistair Barry’s docos at
) and does not have the intellectual background, drive, or skills to dismantle Key’s transparent difficulty with the truth.
Cunliffe, as finance spokesperson, seems best equipped to address Key – but Key himself is something of a moving target. To give him credit, he got out of Merrill while the going was good and seems intent to diversify into other areas. But his notion of politics seems stolen from Machiavelli’s “The Prince”.
This election is winnable by Labour if they were to come up with someone both street smart and intellectually equipped to deal with the (deflationary) problems of our time, a fresh face, a new image, an optimistic environmental vision of living within our means, attractive to Maori, a breath of fresh air in a stagnant political climate.
Sorry, Phil. This is not about personalities – we need the right person for our times.
This election is winnable by Labour if they were to come up with someone both street smart and intellectually equipped to deal with the (deflationary) problems of our time, a fresh face, a new image, an optimistic environmental vision of living within our means, attractive to Maori, a breath of fresh air in a stagnant political climate.
Kelvin Davis FTW
I’m impressed, so far, with Kelvin Davis. But is it’s probably too soon for him.
yeah maybe, but i’m finding time is becoming compressed and things are moving at a faster rate, people are developing more rapidly…
…i’d like to see Davis stick it to Key on tourism and see if he’s got the measure of him though.
That was ages ago and he’s good at his job.
Carter may have had a hissy fit but it serves a purpose of reassessment of Labour at a stage in the electoral cycle which allows plenty of time to consolidate a viable position if Labour has one. He probably thought that he didn’t have anything to lose and expressed thoughts that all may have kept hidden until now. It is hard for people like Andrew Little to countenance this idea of ‘step change’ but it will bring any doubters to the surface and any alternative candidates should now check support among colleagues and speak.
Goff is making some good points but is he up to the job for three years along with the old team that don’t inspire confidence?
Kelvin Davis ?
http://www.labour.org.nz/mps/kelvin-davis
…certainly looks the part and from what i’ve read, he talks a good game too
just hope he hasn’t got an annoying voice or a stupid walk…
Yes, from what I’ve read too, particularly on prison privatisation. Saw him at the Backbencher… he spoke well and seems to walk ok
I have hope of Labour winning the election in 2020. After the Carter debacle, I’m now convinced.
pollywog: thanks
Personally I think Chris was right. Good on him for having the courage to stand up for his political beliefs.
Phail Gooff is leading Labour to a disaster – there’s literally no one that i know who believes that Labour can win next year.
Time to go. Goooff
It has been interesting reading the comments here for one particular reason.
The comments that say Goff should go appear to come from pseudonyms that are one of
The people that are active in the NZLP appear to largely be supportive of both the caucus actions and Goff. Their most frequent comment echo mine – this is a bloody irritation distraction from the work of winning the next election.
There are a few like OOB where I’m not sure of their actual affiliations…
lprent
With all due respect, I think the biggest problem Labour has had for many years is that it’s core supporters are not critical enough of the party machine. This IMHO is a legacy of the Clark years and the she-who-is-never-wrong and must never apologise mentality. If you genuinely think Goff is the man for the job then all good, otherwise get on with making the right noises to effect change.
Oh they’re critical. They just don’t tend to do it on the blogs. Why should they?
They can do it inside the branches, LEC’s, conferences, policy council, NZ council etc etc – the apparatus of a democratic political party. And they certainly do.
The point has been raised on Kiwiblog that whatever the thoughts of the Labour Caucus on this subject the matter has made it more likely that Labour will fail to win the next election.
The comments made by Carter about Goff will be trotted out everytime there are news stories on Labour, even if Labour are doing well in the polls. In a general head to head battle between Goff and Key many people will have an inbuilt prejudice of Goff being an unelectable loser.
The only way Goff can ‘win’ IMO, is if in a prolonged double dip recession, a vote for Goff is a vote of disillusionment with Key, in much the same way as a vote for Key in the last election was a vote against Helen.
The election is not there for Goff to win, it’s there for Key to lose.
G – yep I can expect the eternal repetition from the sewer. It is one of the few things that they’re good at. But really – what do sensible moderates like NZLP members think?
I too am shocked, (shocked!!) that the right aren’t planning to run on their record.
How do you know what they are, or are not, going to run on?
The point is that in politics perception is as important as reality.
If a large section of the electorate perceives a Goff lead Labour party as having an inability to win the next election then there is a danger that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Somebody said to me that “the bloody NZ electorate votes for politicians like they pick racehorses – they choose whomever they think is going to win.”
So yeah, on this prinicple alone John Key is out ahead.
How do you know what they are, or are not, going to run on?
The passive voice there doesn’t fool anyone. Who is going to trot that out? The reason they will trot it out is to try and cause it to be, as you said.
As I’ve said repeatedly on this thread, operatives might well think like that.
That’s not talking about politics, it’s talking about the polis, and trying to second guess what your fellow citizens think.
Unless you are a political operative, why do that?
It’s the stupidest sort of partisan politics as sportsfan bullshit. It’s entirely the wrong focus.
Think about the pollies, not the citizens reaction to the pollies.
Journos do it, for their own reasons.
Pollies do it, for their own reasons.
Citizens do it, if they are fucking chumps.
Easy, if the right ran on their record they wouldn’t be electable.
Oh well, I guess you have got to grasp on to something to explain it if the left loses again.
So you’re saying that, on this site at least, Goff is supported by Labour’s base?
I’ve noticed that, in my neck of the woods, as above, Goff is soundly disapproved of by the left of the left (understandably IMO given his ‘toriness’) and is also disliked by the less well off trad Labourites, including party members, and particularly women (- I think this will become even more apparent at the election). He seems to be tolerated by upper-middle class labourites in a kind of “it could be worse” kind of way.
I’m yet to meet or even overhear anyone who actually likes or strongly likes him.
I’m ‘left of left’ but do know many that aren’t.
Yeah – but if people like Goff or not wasn’t what I was commenting on.
It was if other people inside the party thought (like Carter) that there should be a leadership change in mid-term. That is a completely separate question.
There are a lot of reasons not to do it as far as the good of the party is concerned that I referred to in the post and in subsequent comments. To date I don’t think that I have seen anyone that I’d clearly consider a NZLP activist or supporter (ie have a comment history of supporting the party) suggest this would be a good time for a change.
Of course it could be omission by silence – but I really don’t think so. Mostly what I get is a sense of oh fuck – we didn’t need this crap.
..”Mostly what I get is a sense of oh fuck – we didn’t need this crap…”
-I think most of us on the left are feeling this – me because I thought there was a 50/50 chance of Labour toppling Goff before the election, and moving to the left. Now I think that’s way less likely.
And of course, because I’m genuinely afraid of what another 3 years of National will do to NZ and its people, and Carter’s tantrum has brought that particular nightmare a few steps closer.
So ta for that chris.
Hmm, I haven’t posted here much, but I’d consider myself to be in category 2, namely left of centre and a traditional Labour supporter, although I have split my vote with the Greens in the past as well.
I can only base my opinion of Goff by what I’ve seen on TV, and this is not necessarily the best measure, but it is what most Kiwis have to go by. I’d have to say that he comes across as being a very reasonable and intelligent chap, but he doesn’t seem to be overly charismatic. Sadly, even though I think Carter acted in a fit of pique, he may actually be right about Goffs leadership. Politics in NZ is becoming more and more influenced by the soundbyte, and less by decent policy, so while Goff may be well respected within the party, if he doesn’t engage the sheeple effectively Labour may well find themselves on the opposition benches for another 3 years.
Yeah, Phil isn’t that charismatic on TV (he is in person – I think almost every major politico has to be). But frankly that isn’t that much of criteria either philosophically or practically.
I was working with Helen at her electorate level from 1990 (ie well before she was leader of the opposition). She was damn awkward on TV at the start and not all that charismatic even in 2008. Exactly the same things were said about her even compared to Bolger. She grew on people because she was overwhelmingly competent. Phil is much the same as far as I can see.
Frankly I’ve always discounted the charismatic argument. Sure there are some people who operate that way (less than 10% of voters), but you realize when you’re canvassing that most people (at least if they are over 25) treat their vote pretty damn seriously.
That’s what I like about him
There is a great deal of polititcal ignorance in this country. If you don’t believe me, check out this link, it is to an abstract, but you can download the paper from there.
So while in your experience folk may take their vote seriously, many are simply uninformed, or make their decisions from a flawed starting point.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1352661
Interestingly, among other predicters, a right wing ideology is more likely to be an indicator of political ignorance
And to be fair, when Helen was elected PM it was on a wave of anti-national sentiment. Had Phil been leader then he would also have won easily I suspect. I’d be surprised if we see a similar major swing away from the Nats next year, so I think you discount the charisma factor at your peril. The vast majority of voters are not going to meet Phil in person, and given the more presidential style of campaigns these days how each leader comes across on televised debates has real impact on swing voters.
Don’t get me wrong, when Helen stepped down I thought Phil was the obvious replacement. I agree he seems very measured and competent, and for party insiders I suppose that is essential. I’m simply concerned that this may not come across to those outside the inner circle.
Lprent
I would put myself in category 1, although I have voted Labour in the past when National has been unelectable, 1999, 2002.
The fact is as a righty I am happy for Goff to remain in charge because Labour will not win with him there. I will bet my first born on that. We have daily updates on this site about how John Key is a lazy, hopeless, devious hard rightwing PM that will destroy New Zealand if he gets a second term. Now if the leader of the opposition cannot get any traction with even a quarter of those stories and use them as ammunition then one of two things is happening; either.
1. The stories we read on here are all bullshit; or
2. Phil Goff is the wrong man to be leading the opposition.
Evidence and statistics shows many of the stories on here are reasonably accurate. That leaves number 2.
Many blame the media. But there is no use crying about that. You need someone who will engage the media in a positive way. Goff is not doing that or can not do that. Isn’t it time to get someone in that can spread the Leftist gospel to those who do not read The Standard.
Thanks for the compliment to the authors.
But you have to remember time scales. Helen took over from Mike Moore at the end of 93 when we had a pretty bad defeat against a very unpopular government. It took her a full three years to get within a few percent of the Nats and through all of that time her figures were crap. That is why Winston got the large vote that he did. People wanted to not vote for either labour or national.
Move on to 1999. Labour figures improved a lot. Helens figures didn’t particularly.
Quite simply there is no particular reason to think that anyone else will be able to do better in this environment. There is a lot of damage in changing leaders.
Also National are literally hanging on by a thread – it is hard to find a minister that is competent. The thread is John Keys personal popularity, which leaves national extrairdinaily politically exposed, and the factors that make that up are slipping. To me it looks like having every probability of key doing a rudd before the end of term.
“Also National are literally hanging on by a thread”
Except that thread is a twenty point party lead in the polls and a fifty point lead in preferred PM. Nice thread if you can get ‘em.
I think – although I hate to second guess – that lprent means that day to day operationally and policy-wise National are literally hanging on by a thread.
National are like a corporate in the last quarter of strong profits, because underlying their strong numbers, their day to day operations and product development programmes have started to run off the rails. When the flow on effects from these operational realities become visible, their numbers will drop.
But without doubt, Labour needs fewer bullshit distractions of the Carter type and to keep their eye on target.
2. Left of centre, but people I’ve mentally tagged as not being NZLP members (or even supporters).
The enemy of my enemy is my friend
Left of centre people who are not Labour supporters are the people Labour should be listening to more than ever at the moment. These people (and I consider myself one) are the people who have voted Labour in the past, may vote Labour in the future but will not vote for Labour while Labour are a self serving bunch of has beens who are just waiting for their retirement.
Yep P… That was where I’d had you tagged…. There are a lot of people with that attitude from both sides commenting on the blogs or authoring posts (including here). Moderates are much scarcer.
Carter is completely unhinged.
I quote David Horowitz about people like Carter: “One has to make conscious efforts throughout adult life to ignore truth, common sense, and the principles of liberty and individual rights. Groupthink, political correctness, and other quasi-socialist processes must fill the void. This belief system is bereft of intellect and reason; indeed, it is the refuge of the uninspired, and is the polar opposite of the principles that any free nation was founded upon.’
Not PC nails it:
Chris Carter has died politically just as he lived politically.
Lying.
Ineptly posting an anonymous letter announcing there will be a leadership coup—on Tuesday, no less—and saying when caught that his reason for trying the shabby deception was he hoped it would cause a leadership coup.
A twisted ham-fisted ruse to pretend his idiocy hadn’t just made more unlikely what he claimed to be trying to foment.
Looks like someone’s going to be in the dog house for a long time.
What is the polling on Kelvin Davis Vs Goff ?
Or for that matter, Raymond Huo versus Goff.
Helen Clark vs Goff ?
Yeah, fat chance of her coming back to clean up the mess.
Not a good contender if the reaction against his Chinese post criticising Norman’s protest is anything to go by.
Good luck, Loota !
I sincerely believe that Chris Carter has had a breakdown .There is no doubt that the disgracfully way the news media treated him has had its effects. Perhaps we should show a litte compassion and urge Chris to seek medical help. If he does that then the door is open for reconcilliation in the future. However let me say that if it is not a breakdown then I withdraw my statement.
Interesting viewpoint Pink, I have been fairly savage about Carters antics on this post, but should it appear that you are correct he will recieve my full apology.
I was fairly critical of the parliamentary and party staff during the expenses fiasco, my contention was that they should have vetted their MPs practices. Goffs leadership (or lack thereof) allowed this scenario to continue under his watch, for this alone he should go. If he has missed out something like a breakdown he should be the one expelled for simple bad people management.
I think you are right pinkpostman and good on you for coming out and saying it. A little bit of compassion for Chris instead of the diatribes of hatred (mainly from the dead in the head wingnuts) would be a welcome change.
Had a break down my ass. Smells like truth to me. He was fucked off. He tried to cause some shit anonymously and got caught. I believe he’s basically said fuck it, might as well go down in flames.
That’s my take anyway.
The medical stuff seems to be coming from Labour as a diversion.
I can’t recall any one writing posts here or in the media about what Chris has been doing in the house in his shadow portfolios. I suspect that Chris has simply had a problem with adjusting to opposition, having a shift in hierarchy, and generally working in a much harder environment. He has been a bit more erratic than he usually is but I’d put most of that on the wing nuts and the media idiocy. It is clear that Chris doesn’t like criticism.
In any case he went far over the line with this exercise. The labour party cannot afford to carry him
I sincerely believe that Chris Carter has had a breakdown .There is no doubt that the disgracfully way the news media treated him has had its effects.
Hey, at least no-one has outright accused him of mental illness.
Oh wait – that’s right, Phil Goff and Trevor Mallard just did.
IT’S BECAUSE MENTAL ILLNESS IS FUNNY
Where’s all this happening SHG? I seem to have missed it
Examples from my browser history:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10662295
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10662394
Thanks.
Don’t see anyone in those links making jokes about mental illness though. Goff is asked and declines to comment saying he isn’t a doctor or some such.
Most of the other comments from Mallard and Goff relate to Carter’s non-professionalism and irrationality.
They also mention that he’s under a lot of pressure, seems unbalanced and is probably having a hard time coping with stress.
I don’t see anyone making light of that though. What are you on about?
Labour member who’s quite considering voting green, get rid of Phil eergh
captcha: opportunitys
Radio Live has been a revelation. Laws dropping big hints about a team up with Winston. Goff stating he would happily form a coalition with just about everyone – NZF, Greens, and MP. Hooten reckons Labour only needs to get to 35% to make it work, 7% from the Greens and 6% from NZF.
An unholy alliance, but a real possibility. Imagine a cabinet that puts Peters, Laws, Norman, and Turei together! Bad for the country, but great fun all the same.
“West Auckland lawyer Greg Presland was one possible contender for selection.”
http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/carter-goes-independent-until-next-year-3679544
Deb Manning I know but who’s this Presland person ?
Surely Phil Twyford won’t be overlooked again ?
Yes, I wonder who that guy is?
Look i am a national party member if you guys want to keep phil goff there fine .
I take it you were never a fan of Bier Rabbit as a kid.
There is no hope for labour in the short and medium term after the next election there is going to be blood letting which i am, looking forward too.
But in a show of compassion i now how it feels in 2002 it was hard to be proud to be a national party member.I still rember that election and i got over it as i am sure you labour supporters will.
So suck it up take the pain but remember it wont be forever
Brer (sp?) Rabbit? You mean the tale about the blackberry/briar patch? ‘Anything, but please, please don’t throw me into the briar patch’. (or words to that effect)
Yes, I think there’s a lot of that kind of tactical rhetoric in politics. Sets off some interesting thoughts in relation to your comment, too. How far down the ‘rabbit hole’ should we go?
Look there is a wider issue at stake here.
That is the issue of democracy in modern political parties – quite frankly I think lprent is delusional about talking about party democracy. Has he ever been to a policy meeting? Has he ever been to an unconstest elections that are endemic of all levels of the Labour party?
The fact of the matter is that Labour members not just a few priveleged elites in the Caucus have the right to vote for their leader.
The fact of the matter is – watching the interview with Chris Carter pledging his allegiance to the Labour Party is that he has been expelled for telling the truth and vocalizing what so many people in the Labour Party are holding.
The short answer to all of those is yes (assuming you meant uncontested). Most of the formal activities were a while ago. Personally I’m more interested in doing what needs to be done rather than going through the rather tiresome and lengthy processes (which is why I blog outside of the party systems). However I do have respect for the extensive systems in labour for formation of policy and other formal systems.
But that wasn’t what I was talking about. I was talking about democratic party process. But that doesn’t mean that everything is put to a referendum. That is something that only the delusional would want. Like all organisations (including every business or voluntary organization I’ve been involved in) you find that people are listened to based on peoples respect for them. That is usually proportional to how much of a contribution others view them as having.
I suspect that not getting listened to with respect will underlie whatever your point is. Perhaps you should look to what your contribution is?
Perhaps you should suggest what you ideas on how a democratic party should operate like so I can mince them?
Of course there is a disconnnect between the party as a whole and caucus if there hadn’t been then this tragicomedy spectacle wouldn’t be taking place. Image for a moment having lost the last election Helen Clark stands down as leader. Nominations are called for from the Parliamentary Party, affiliated unions, and the party itself. There is an election involving the whole Party. Goff is elected Leader of the Party. At the 2009 conference Goff is re-elected by the party as a whole. Goff would be a leader who commanded the respect of the whole party and not just caucus.
Only the stupid or capricious would mount an attack against a leader with such a mandate…
I suspect that you have a strange notion of what the party leaders position is. They aren’t the president of the party (which is similar to what you just described). They are leader of the parliamentary caucus. Their job is to run the parliamentary team, elected by their peers in the parliamentary team, to act as leader in the house.
Tell me, how much do the ordinary members of the party understand about parliamentary procedure? It typically takes a new MP quite a few years to get their head around the procedures. How could a referendum spread amongst people who have no idea of the procedures in parliament make a accurate judgment of the capabilities of an MP to coordinate the effort in parliament?
Your idea is idiotic.
Incidentally, the party president is elected by representatives of the electorates and affiliated unions. Even then we’re looking at quite a large number of delegates and considerable expense.
Elitist bullshit. The Greens seem to manage democracy well as does the British Labour Party. If the Labour Party is to survive into the 21st century and grow its membership then they have to be involved in more than just leaflet delivery and exhortations to join the century fund.
I’d agree that they have to move into the 21st – most of my work inside and more frequently outside of the party (like this site) are designed to push that way. It is very hard work because some parts of the NZLP are like it’s constitution and are crusty with age.
But that isn’t the case with the caucus which works under a much stronger evolutionary pressure. I can’t see much value in constraining the parliamentary team by trying to pick their team leader from outside. If the caucus don’t have confidence in their leader then it isn’t going to work.
With the greens there are only a few mps and they have only been in opposition. That allows for far more room for peoples quirks.
With the British labour party, well you only have to look at the last few years of back and front bench idiocies to see what a dead weight their system has been. You get the impression that there is a lot of pent up pressure in a dysfunctional caucus because of the technique of leadership selection. The mps seem to continually try go resolve caucus issues by appealing to the wider party which is simply not useful.
Perhaps rather than saying it is elitist, you could elucidate the advantages you see
At the moment caucus is almost completely separate from the party as a whole. The rest of the party can only look on powerless and in horror as this debacle unfolds in the mainstream press. Had there been a greater connect between Carter and his local party this probably wouldn’t have happened – he’d have consulted and they would have said don’t be stupid. I’m not arguing for an imposed leader that caucus has to live with rather that leadership candidates have a broader franchise than just the caucus. In any working system for broad based leadership contests I have seen the nominations come from the PLP as well as affiliates and the party. As with the British Labour Party NZLP has been reformed to ensure the ordinary membership have only a supporters role. Try following a remit up the chain.
People join political parties because they are interested in politics and want to make a self perceived positive change. Whilst our membership grows old we are being overtaken by the Greens wh are attracting younger members with participation and the posibility of change. We offer leaflet delivery.
The British Labour Party enacted a number of democratic reforms in the eighties. It widened the franchise for the election of the Leader and Deputy Leader and brought in structure for the reselection of MP’s involving the constutuencis or LEC’s. It also briefly bound the PLP to policies decided by Annual Conference. Apart from the electoral college for the election of the Leader and Deputy all of the reforms were reversed by Blair. The problems the party has faced with the Blair/Brown leadership have little to do with the electoral system and more to do with a Leadership style bereft of principle.
Whilst we are a much larger political party than the Greens in terms of MP’s our membership base is numerically the same as the Greens. Reversing that decline means looking to growing our membership base with progressive policies and democratic structures.
My original argument stands. Carter would not be able to throw his toys out of the pram over Goff’s leadership had Goff been elected by the whole party. As vain and as arrogant as Chris can be he would have baulked at sticking up two fingers to the entire party.
Don’t trust ordinary members they’re too stupid to know what’s good for them. Just like people who get polled and voters who vote in elections, they’re too dumb but one day they will come into line.
I don’t think anyone was calling ordinary members stupid.
As far as political suicides go, one a scale of one to ten, where one is a polite but firmly worded letter to one’s leader and ten is getting shitfaced and commandeering a television broadcaster to call an election you don’t have a hope in hell of winning, this would barely rate a six. Even another Labourite (John A. Lee) was able to perform a more spectacular exit.
It was spectacular just reading about it 40 years after the fact
Larnach did a pretty good job as well.
If carter arranged his trip to china months ago as he says, he would still have been labour’s foreign affairs spokesman. Bloody stupid to accept a fully expended gift from china to visit when you’re foreign affairs spokesman.