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	<title>Comments on: Justice, provocation, and the media</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: felix</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-148191</link>
		<dc:creator>felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-148191</guid>
		<description>What does Bain have to do with this issue of provocation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What does Bain have to do with this issue of provocation?</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Dale</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-148187</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-148187</guid>
		<description>One right verdict and one wrong, the media should be ashamed for their support of Bain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One right verdict and one wrong, the media should be ashamed for their support of Bain.</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard J</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-148086</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-148086</guid>
		<description>You ignore the blog post and virtually every comment, and then ask &quot;So what&#039;s the issue.&quot;?

Talk about willful ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You ignore the blog post and virtually every comment, and then ask &#8220;So what&#8217;s the issue.&#8221;?</p>
<p>Talk about willful ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: grumpy</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-148037</link>
		<dc:creator>grumpy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-148037</guid>
		<description>The &quot;defence&quot; of provocation has only been used successfully 4 times.

Twice in the case of battered women and twice by males claiming unwanted sexual molestation from other males.

The &quot;defence&quot; only goes as far as allowing murder to be reduced to manslaughter, the maximum penalty for both are the same - life imprisonment.

In the Weatherston case the jury, quite properly, rejected the argument.

So what&#039;s the issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;defence&#8221; of provocation has only been used successfully 4 times.</p>
<p>Twice in the case of battered women and twice by males claiming unwanted sexual molestation from other males.</p>
<p>The &#8220;defence&#8221; only goes as far as allowing murder to be reduced to manslaughter, the maximum penalty for both are the same &#8211; life imprisonment.</p>
<p>In the Weatherston case the jury, quite properly, rejected the argument.</p>
<p>So what&#8217;s the issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-148022</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-148022</guid>
		<description>SB, 

&lt;i&gt;methinks you as a journalist (I may be assuming that you are) have a greater idea of the importance and utility of the media than I do.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not a journalist, I&#039;m a media analyst. My sense of the importance and utility of the media comes not from being a part of it, but by spending a very great deal of my time looking at how media coverage interacts with society and politics. 

&lt;i&gt;As a result of the commercial and political construct of the media I always read in filter mode&lt;/i&gt;

But &lt;i&gt;you still read&lt;/i&gt;. You&#039;re not outside the loop; you&#039;re part of it.

&lt;i&gt;I would question that &quot;It is the vÃ©ritÃ© quality of courtroom coverage which grants it credibility&#039; when it is selective and soundclip style.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m not arguing that vÃ©ritÃ© is automagically credible or objective - I&#039;m saying that, all else being equal, it is the most objective, unfiltered source of information. Yes, sound-bites and selective editing and editorialisation are a problem - but they&#039;re more of a problem with other formats. What you ought to be arguing isn&#039;t a ban on vÃ©ritÃ©, it&#039;s a ban on poor journalism. Good luck with that. 

&lt;i&gt;Fortunately the public dissemination of information and resulting debate is something the media does not have a monopoly on.&lt;/i&gt;

Name one fact about the Weatherston trial which wasn&#039;t first transmitted by the media. Try to do the same for a few other prominent public events of recent times. If you weren&#039;t there, or you don&#039;t personally know someone who was there, chances are you can&#039;t. 

Now try and explain to me how the media don&#039;t have a monopoly on public information.

L</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SB, </p>
<p><i>methinks you as a journalist (I may be assuming that you are) have a greater idea of the importance and utility of the media than I do.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a journalist, I&#8217;m a media analyst. My sense of the importance and utility of the media comes not from being a part of it, but by spending a very great deal of my time looking at how media coverage interacts with society and politics. </p>
<p><i>As a result of the commercial and political construct of the media I always read in filter mode</i></p>
<p>But <i>you still read</i>. You&#8217;re not outside the loop; you&#8217;re part of it.</p>
<p><i>I would question that &#8220;It is the vÃ©ritÃ© quality of courtroom coverage which grants it credibility&#8217; when it is selective and soundclip style.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not arguing that vÃ©ritÃ© is automagically credible or objective &#8211; I&#8217;m saying that, all else being equal, it is the most objective, unfiltered source of information. Yes, sound-bites and selective editing and editorialisation are a problem &#8211; but they&#8217;re more of a problem with other formats. What you ought to be arguing isn&#8217;t a ban on vÃ©ritÃ©, it&#8217;s a ban on poor journalism. Good luck with that. </p>
<p><i>Fortunately the public dissemination of information and resulting debate is something the media does not have a monopoly on.</i></p>
<p>Name one fact about the Weatherston trial which wasn&#8217;t first transmitted by the media. Try to do the same for a few other prominent public events of recent times. If you weren&#8217;t there, or you don&#8217;t personally know someone who was there, chances are you can&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Now try and explain to me how the media don&#8217;t have a monopoly on public information.</p>
<p>L</p>
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		<title>By: So Bored</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-148019</link>
		<dc:creator>So Bored</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-148019</guid>
		<description>Lew, methinks you as a journalist (I may be assuming that you are) have a greater idea of the importance and utility of the media than I do. As a result of the commercial and political construct of the media I always read in filter mode, the issue of media independence raises its ugly head often.

I would question that &quot;It is the vÃ©ritÃ© quality of courtroom coverage which grants it credibility&quot; when it is selective and soundclip style.

Fortunately the public dissemination of information and resulting debate is something the media does not have a monopoly on. It never ceases to amaze me that the media think that they have a monopoly on our ears and eyes, and that they ARE the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lew, methinks you as a journalist (I may be assuming that you are) have a greater idea of the importance and utility of the media than I do. As a result of the commercial and political construct of the media I always read in filter mode, the issue of media independence raises its ugly head often.</p>
<p>I would question that &#8220;It is the vÃ©ritÃ© quality of courtroom coverage which grants it credibility&#8221; when it is selective and soundclip style.</p>
<p>Fortunately the public dissemination of information and resulting debate is something the media does not have a monopoly on. It never ceases to amaze me that the media think that they have a monopoly on our ears and eyes, and that they ARE the story.</p>
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		<title>By: travellerev</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147994</link>
		<dc:creator>travellerev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147994</guid>
		<description>To scrap the &quot;provocation&quot; defence is utterly indefensible and a total breach of human rights. Do I think that Weatherston was legit in using the defence?

I think that he is a psycho and it seems the jury was in agreement with that. He should be in jail for the rest of his life because psycho&#039;s are notoriously difficult to treat but to deny 4 million people the right to use the provocation defence based on the abuse of that defence of one deranged human being is criminal. 
 
At the risk of being accused of link whoring &lt;a href=&#039;http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what%E2%80%99s-up-with-the-clayton-weatherston-murder-trial-part-2/&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; is what I think about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To scrap the &#8220;provocation&#8221; defence is utterly indefensible and a total breach of human rights. Do I think that Weatherston was legit in using the defence?</p>
<p>I think that he is a psycho and it seems the jury was in agreement with that. He should be in jail for the rest of his life because psycho&#8217;s are notoriously difficult to treat but to deny 4 million people the right to use the provocation defence based on the abuse of that defence of one deranged human being is criminal. </p>
<p>At the risk of being accused of link whoring <a href='http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/what%E2%80%99s-up-with-the-clayton-weatherston-murder-trial-part-2/' rel="nofollow">this</a> is what I think about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Ianmac</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147990</link>
		<dc:creator>Ianmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147990</guid>
		<description>You are right Lew. These days at newstime I soon turn to Prime to watch the Millionaire program. Surely however you would pick your target and apply your energy to things that you can change. Keep the kids in good heart. Stay on the right side of your wife. Help your elderly neighbour. Work to help your Union. Do something helpful towards the next election. No. I wan&#039;t suggesting opting out, just choosy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right Lew. These days at newstime I soon turn to Prime to watch the Millionaire program. Surely however you would pick your target and apply your energy to things that you can change. Keep the kids in good heart. Stay on the right side of your wife. Help your elderly neighbour. Work to help your Union. Do something helpful towards the next election. No. I wan&#8217;t suggesting opting out, just choosy.</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147985</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147985</guid>
		<description>Well, you&#039;re entitled to turn the TV off and not read the papers. Some of us want to know the full extent of what&#039;s wrong with our society so we can change it.

L</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, you&#8217;re entitled to turn the TV off and not read the papers. Some of us want to know the full extent of what&#8217;s wrong with our society so we can change it.</p>
<p>L</p>
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		<title>By: Ianmac</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147983</link>
		<dc:creator>Ianmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147983</guid>
		<description>Verdict correct. Defence used Provocation as allowed by law at the Judge&#039;s discretion. Fine. Lawful. 
But the anguish felt by the world at large is because of the Media exposure. 
Perhaps we are used to those fun TV crime/trial stories which are really pretty sanitised. Real trials involving real violence are awful and gruesome and go on all the time. Perhaps it is right to get the real life and death story, but frankly I would prefer to remain oblivious, a bit like staying away from doctors, policemen, and lawyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Verdict correct. Defence used Provocation as allowed by law at the Judge&#8217;s discretion. Fine. Lawful.<br />
But the anguish felt by the world at large is because of the Media exposure.<br />
Perhaps we are used to those fun TV crime/trial stories which are really pretty sanitised. Real trials involving real violence are awful and gruesome and go on all the time. Perhaps it is right to get the real life and death story, but frankly I would prefer to remain oblivious, a bit like staying away from doctors, policemen, and lawyers.</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147977</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147977</guid>
		<description>T, all you&#039;re talking about is format-shifting. Without compelling video coverage there emerges reconstructions, dramatised serialisation, salaciously-edited transcripts and artists&#039; impressions. The same content and exploitation, with much less informative value and more opportunity for sensationalist editorialisation.

It is the &lt;i&gt;vÃ©ritÃ©&lt;/i&gt; quality of courtroom coverage which grants it credibility and requires society to consider it with the proper degree of seriousness and gravity.

L</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>T, all you&#8217;re talking about is format-shifting. Without compelling video coverage there emerges reconstructions, dramatised serialisation, salaciously-edited transcripts and artists&#8217; impressions. The same content and exploitation, with much less informative value and more opportunity for sensationalist editorialisation.</p>
<p>It is the <i>vÃ©ritÃ©</i> quality of courtroom coverage which grants it credibility and requires society to consider it with the proper degree of seriousness and gravity.</p>
<p>L</p>
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		<title>By: Lew</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147972</link>
		<dc:creator>Lew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147972</guid>
		<description>SB, I&#039;m not assuming. I do this for a living. 

There is no other agency which could have transmitted the necessary information to the public for discussion and debate - the courts can&#039;t; the government shouldn&#039;t; the lobby groups and PR teams can&#039;t function without the media. How else are the public to get the information, and how else are the politicians to take their cues from the public?

&lt;i&gt;How&lt;/i&gt; we air this sort of information is a trickier question, and, is likewise a matter to be left to the media (and proto-media such as blogs). Their &lt;a href=&quot;http://rhetorica.net/archives/7332.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;job&lt;/a&gt; is broadly &quot;to give citizens the information they need to be free and self-governing.&quot; They frequently fall short of the ideal, but in this case they have fulfilled the task admirably, and in most cases, the more information available, the better the public is equipped for that task. 

L</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SB, I&#8217;m not assuming. I do this for a living. </p>
<p>There is no other agency which could have transmitted the necessary information to the public for discussion and debate &#8211; the courts can&#8217;t; the government shouldn&#8217;t; the lobby groups and PR teams can&#8217;t function without the media. How else are the public to get the information, and how else are the politicians to take their cues from the public?</p>
<p><i>How</i> we air this sort of information is a trickier question, and, is likewise a matter to be left to the media (and proto-media such as blogs). Their <a href="http://rhetorica.net/archives/7332.html" rel="nofollow">job</a> is broadly &#8220;to give citizens the information they need to be free and self-governing.&#8221; They frequently fall short of the ideal, but in this case they have fulfilled the task admirably, and in most cases, the more information available, the better the public is equipped for that task. </p>
<p>L</p>
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		<title>By: T</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147967</link>
		<dc:creator>T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147967</guid>
		<description>What about live written coverage, and delayed (until prosecution and defense have completed presenting their case) visual coverage?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about live written coverage, and delayed (until prosecution and defense have completed presenting their case) visual coverage?</p>
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		<title>By: Bright Red</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147965</link>
		<dc:creator>Bright Red</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147965</guid>
		<description>I wouldn&#039;t go that far. People have a right to a competent defence but lawyers are also officers of the court, and they shouldn&#039;t do &#039;whatever it takes&#039; to try to get their clients off</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t go that far. People have a right to a competent defence but lawyers are also officers of the court, and they shouldn&#8217;t do &#8216;whatever it takes&#8217; to try to get their clients off</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/justice-provocation-and-the-media/comment-page-1/#comment-147963</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=17482#comment-147963</guid>
		<description>Agree that if there had been substantive reporting on mechanics of the defence...analytical, thoughtful reporting...then, but hang on. We&#039;re talking about NZ media here. Not going to happen.

Must remember that we are not meant to engage in a meaningful fashion; that we are not meant to form independent and intelligent opinions; that we must be safeguarded from information that might encourage the forming of intelligent and independent opinion.

Seems some need to be reminded that thoughtful, independent opinions make for dangerous individuals.

So give us vacuous sensationalism or sweet sickly sentimentality. Keep us safe beneath an  umbrella of dubious entertainment and infotainment. Let our opinions be led by those who are better than us, by those with the professionalism and intelligence to be trusted with anything other than watery swill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree that if there had been substantive reporting on mechanics of the defence&#8230;analytical, thoughtful reporting&#8230;then, but hang on. We&#8217;re talking about NZ media here. Not going to happen.</p>
<p>Must remember that we are not meant to engage in a meaningful fashion; that we are not meant to form independent and intelligent opinions; that we must be safeguarded from information that might encourage the forming of intelligent and independent opinion.</p>
<p>Seems some need to be reminded that thoughtful, independent opinions make for dangerous individuals.</p>
<p>So give us vacuous sensationalism or sweet sickly sentimentality. Keep us safe beneath an  umbrella of dubious entertainment and infotainment. Let our opinions be led by those who are better than us, by those with the professionalism and intelligence to be trusted with anything other than watery swill.</p>
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