Key on Pulse nightclub massacre

83 comments on “Key on Pulse nightclub massacre ”

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1. whateva next? 1

   14 June 2016 at 10:58 am

   Has he tried looking in the internet if his official channels aren’t upto speed, I am all for a considered, intelligent response, but he’s not showing leadership if he thinks he can just wait for it to go away, it won’t.
   • Sabine 1.1

     14 June 2016 at 11:28 am

     considered, intelligence and leadership

     are not three words i associate our current Prime Minister with. He never was considered, his intellect seems to be focused on money making and leadership is a slogan for election years only.
   • Dale 1.2

     14 June 2016 at 9:15 pm

     Yeah and nothing to do with Islam what so ever eh?
2. mickysavage 2

   14 June 2016 at 10:59 am

   Wow. Unbelievable comment from Key. Clearly the right are wanting to follow Trump and spin this into an ISIL thing not a homophobic thing.
   • Enough is Enough 2.1

     14 June 2016 at 12:37 pm

     Isn’t it a combination of both.

     An American natural acting on his own accord but radicalised through the teachings on the internet into believing it was right to massacre homosexuals.
3. Greg 3

   14 June 2016 at 11:04 am

   Key is waiting for a Crosby- Textor report, to make an official statement.
   We have to remember that our world class statesman leader, is not a deep thinker.
   Clearly the shooter had issues with his own sexuality, as most homophobic alpha male types do.
   Likewise, America’s list of homophobic fundamentalist preachers doing jail time for kiddy crimes, or been outed chasing rent boys continues to grow.
   • North 3.1

     14 June 2016 at 5:53 pm

     Yeah, if it’s true that Mateen was already a numerous times past visitor to Pulse the self-loathing screams. Self-loathing often deploys delusional cover.
     • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

       14 June 2016 at 7:28 pm

       Is this a real thing???
4. happynz 4

   14 June 2016 at 11:05 am

   The PM wants the Crosby Textor line before he makes any further statements.
   • Greg 4.1

     14 June 2016 at 11:08 am

     lol, snap
     • happynz 4.1.1

       14 June 2016 at 11:11 am

       Ha! Yup.
     • Once was Tim 4.1.2

       14 June 2016 at 12:52 pm

       🙂
       Plus …… he really does want to know fosho whether or not ‘the Mex’ (who’s putting hisself eart there) is a ‘gay boi’ or not.
       (Stearfie isn’t such a prollum, but Mex?? Fingers crossed eh John??)

       Meanwhile – we’ll let the Promotions Department take care of things shall we (goan forwid)
       …… en Mex: you know you ken tork ta me et enny toim (goan forwid) en ultimately oive got a host a ppl et moi disposul.

       (People ekshully find that frikken specimen attractive ffs! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

       And I’ve no fucking doubt before long we’ll all be expected to go along with a supplanted idea of victimhood/bullying of dear Mex – etcetera ET-fucking-cetera.

       Get a fucking grip, and fucking grow the fuck up!
       • Lanthanide 4.1.2.1

         14 June 2016 at 1:19 pm

         W.T.F.
       • Bob 4.1.2.2

         14 June 2016 at 2:07 pm

         Remove forehead from keyboard before typing
       • Enough is Enough 4.1.2.3

         14 June 2016 at 3:10 pm

         I have read your post 5 times and still have no idea what the fuck you are rambling about.

         That’s a post of beauty
       • McFlock 4.1.2.4

         14 June 2016 at 3:31 pm

         The bits I might understand correctly, I don’t like.

         I suspect that if it were readable, it would be close to ban-able.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.4.1

           14 June 2016 at 3:53 pm

           It implies that the PM’s son is gay, or at least “experimenting”, and speculates how the Prime Minister might feel about that, and attempt to turn it to political advantage.

           So yeah, I reckon you’re dead right.
           • Draco T Bastard 4.1.2.4.1.1

             14 June 2016 at 5:29 pm

             +1
           • Lanthanide 4.1.2.4.1.2

             14 June 2016 at 6:22 pm

             Ah, ok. I got most of that, but gave up near the end.
       • weka 4.1.2.5

         14 June 2016 at 4:04 pm

         Irrespective of how you might feel about Max Key, you’ve just legimitised anyone to have a go politically at politician’s relatives from any side of the political spectrum. And to have a go at people for being gay.

         People’s sexuality is none of your business (nor anyone else’s). Politician’s relatives off are limits except on their own actions/politics. It’s not hard to understand the reasons for that.
         • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.5.1

           14 June 2016 at 4:10 pm

           It’s not hard to understand the reasons for that…

           …unless you’re Cameron Slater or one of his employers, like the National Party.

           National Party values aren’t welcome in any civilised society, let alone The Standard.
         • Once was Tim 4.1.2.5.2

           14 June 2016 at 4:44 pm

           I must admit @ weka, I’m not that proud about what I’ve written, however I’m so frikken sick of the double standards that about whereby what I wrote seems to be acceptable if when uttered by the likes of Keys/Slaters/Henry’s and others, but unacceptable if someone like me says it. I’m sick to death of the demonisation directed at people by roastbusters et al.
           Comes a time when geese and ganders is not too far off.
           And let’s not forget, the sentiment expressed is actually rife in the gay community – it’s just not said in ‘polite’ company.
           Apologies if you are/were offended but it’s coming time that we are going to actually have to stand up to the bullshit
           • One Anonymous Bloke 4.1.2.5.2.1

             14 June 2016 at 5:08 pm

             A Clayton’s apology to go with the… behaviour…

             Slow clap.

             If you want to get off your knees get on with it. The rest of us stood up long ago.
             • Once was Tim …

               14 June 2016 at 7:33 pm

               Oh fuck OAB!
               But then I’m not surprised. I’m not about to derail this post, but hopefully at some time I’ll correspond with Weka on Open Mike.

               In the meantime, you should consider the possibility that some of the worst, most offensive shite I’ve come across has come from within the ‘gay’ community itself:
               – Like being described as ‘a Breeder’
               – Like being told/asked if my sister was a dyke because she CHOSE not to have children
               – Like being told my daughter must be gay because she hasn’t had a ‘long term’ (and I mean something more than 3 months) relationship in a heterosexual relationship
               – Like being told bisexuals are really homos in denial (thankfully the female of the species are now proving this not to be true – whereas the males – and I count Mongrel Mob and Destiny Church “blokes on the ‘down low” members who’re still in a state of intellectual scat.
               – Like hearing female genitalia referred to as the ‘gash’
               – should I go on?? I can if you like ….. I could go into fag hags and Maid Marions, and sugar daddy’s, and Ashun Bois and all the kaka

               J’accuse!

               You should also consider that the relative luxury you now experience (I’m presuming you’re ‘not normal’ by way of deviating from heterosexual missionary position sex, and ‘LUXURY’ in relative terms), only came about when the LGBTI community began ekshully fighting back: co-opting the word gay; unashamedly referring to each other as fags; etc.; etc.; etc. They protested, and they chucked the shite back

               Just as it was once verboten to talk about “Black” people – now, thankfully something that is/and should be worn with pride. We used to dither and wonder.
               But…. also
               Why a Paula Bennet? Explain that fuckup
               Why a Chris Finlayson? Explain that fuckup! I’ll put money on his ending up a BoQ with the member for the Eastern Burbs acting as his ……
               @OAB – are you in Wellington?
               Check ya frikken prejudices before you point the finger. If you are, I’ll make a point of revisitng S&M’s sometime in the hope we could have a discussion.
               My biggest worry right now is that you’re somehow involved in setting Public/Social Policy. Hopefully NOT Labour or the GP!

               And whilst I’m at it and dealing with this so-called “Clayton’s'” issue, there comes a time (just as the ‘gay community’ realised 20-30 years ago), that a very UN-PC approach was necessary – that was when the word ‘gay’ was co-opted ……… etc. actual protests flourished on the streets, and we all (LGBTI and Norman Normals) progressed.

               I know of people in the medical profession who are very careful about using the word ‘fat’. fat f a t FAT F A T
               FFS! They tell patients they’re “overweight”. “You need to do something about it”… 2 months later…. you SERIOUSLY need to do something about it ….. 2 months later ” No bro YOU SERIOUSLY need to do something about it” ….. you know the inevitable outcome. Minimisation and spin at its best till death
               And I’d posit you’d be the one railing against their telling their patients they were seriously fat INSTEAD of railing against the corporate empire that’s pumping sugar into everything and who’re aided and abetted by the diversionary/spin doctoring that has you accusing me a la your above response.

               Similarly (whilst we’re at it), I could relate to you the experiences at FCG’s
               (that’s Family Group Conferences) whereby telling dysfunctional, violent, drug addicted parents that they are VIOLENT, DYSFUNCTIONAL and DRUG ADDICTED and providing them with options….. being told the assertion is “unhelpful”. That might have be OK for the first child (now in his late 20s – and there’s a story that goes with that which includes prostitution and anything that’s up for an earn), but not for the second, or the third, and now the 11 year old 4th.

               When you’re the perfect specimen, I’ll lend you a more sympathetic ear

               Now obviously!!!! I wouldn’t
               –
               • Once was Tim …

                 14 June 2016 at 7:46 pm

                 ….. things appear to have been cut off/truncated after the “I wouldn’t” – but as I said – this is actually diverting from the thread – so sometime elsewhere in the future on Open Mike maybe.
                 But seriously OAB, and to a lesser extent @ Weka (someone I’m usually in agreement with totally) !!!!
                 Get a frikken grip! (and there goes the justification for a ban)
               • Richard Rawshark …

                 14 June 2016 at 9:46 pm

                 So 10000 words latter what your saying is a lot of people have got big mouths and say dumb arsed things.

                 Welcome to planet Key Sherlock.
                 • Once was Tim …

                   15 June 2016 at 1:25 pm

                   +1 Richard !!!!
                   I’m tempted to do another 1k words
                   We seem to have become a bubble culture. There’s a Thorndon bubble where a political correctness operates; a Mongrel Mob, a Destiny Church, a The Standard bubble etc – each with their own PC.
                   (The Mongels and Destiny bubbles operate with homophobic excellence, as do others) – as do other ‘gangs’. They operate effectively as mini-societies.
                   I’m not at all surprised that Omar Manteen is was most likely a “poof” – not-AT-all! I could have predicted it!
                   You’d have to agree – we (the left-but once was centre) is not making much progress.
                   I think the original challenge to my remarks concerned Mex and the possibility he was – well – I can’t say it for fear of offending.
                   In that regard – I’ll direct my sympathy towards
                   – the homeless
                   – beggars in whatever form who have seen fit to see this as the best possibility for getting an ‘earn’
                   – those on hospital waiting lists
                   – the drug addicted, who’ve had successive gubbamints allow the closing of rehab and counselling services to be run down (ekshully, I had the displeasure to have to wind up Care NZ’s Marton facilities some years ago – but look at it all FFS – that was a mere bagatelle to the destruction that’s occurred in terms of rehab over the neo-liberal years
                   – the Orlando 50 plus
                   – the immigrant labour being royally ripped’ ; those PAYING for PR on under minimum wage; the now [effectively] stateless who’ve had their passports confiscated on the promise of better things (YES it happens in good ole’ Nu Zull)
                   – the NZers in Austraaaayliah
                   – etc.
                   – etc.

                   I think you get the picture (hopefully)

                   I’m just fucked if I’ll feel any sympathy, OR empathy for the politicians; the self-promoting oikons (such as the wannabe Mex goan forwid) who’ve created this situation – that is ….. those that have access to/and an ability to manipulate media, healthcare options; real estate.

                   As far as OAB goes – I’d prescribe 100mg of Owen Jones in the morning, and 500mg of “Little Britain” before bed – and advise he/she should really try to just get over him/herself

                   (Ekshully – DOUBLE the frikken dose if necessary – it’s quite obviously not addictive, and there’s always a Kardashiun antedote)
               • One Anonymous Bloke …

                 15 June 2016 at 6:11 am

                 To paraphrase Pauli, there’s so much bad in that comment it isn’t even wrong, Presumption and prejudice don’t make good arguments.
         • the pigman 4.1.2.5.3

           15 June 2016 at 12:20 am

           Come on weka, half the country/yoof are getting great big belly laughs out of Max Key narcissism… not laughing along with, but at it. To suggest those of the Left have to take themselves so seriously so as to not acknowledge the absurdity of the (political) times we live in is miserable stuff.

           I don’t think OWT is trying to use his stream-of-consciousness musings to advance any political cause/politicise anything, I think he’s just someone with a sense of humour having a rueful chuckle at the absurdity of it all.

           Bringing it back to the topic at hand, I think this (unaccredited) post is pathetic politicisation of the event/massacre. The fact that it has been pared back to a single tweet from Andrew Little (despite the subject line) suggests someone else realised that too.

           In fact, this might be one time I think Keys has restrained himself from playing something like this for advantage, which probably reflects how morally compromised he is currently regarded as being (hopefully borne out by his Farrar polling).
   • Whateva next? 4.2

     14 June 2016 at 3:17 pm

     Or polling from Farrar….
5. mary_a 5

   14 June 2016 at 11:48 am

   FJK must be the only Western world “leader” (joke), who hasn’t come forward so far, with a considered comment on this horror!

   Says it all about NZ’s “leadership” (joke) and direction, if the PM of the day, can’t form an opinion, without being told what to say!!!!! Very weak and gutless!
6. shorts 6

   14 June 2016 at 12:00 pm

   Key so wants/needs more terrorism cards to throw down… this being a anti gay killing rampage and horrific tragedy just doesn’t suit his needs

   Such a statesman
   • mauī 6.1

     14 June 2016 at 12:25 pm

     That would help justify their crazy $20 billion defence spend over the next 15 years.
     • shorts 6.1.1

       14 June 2016 at 12:47 pm

       that and increased spy powers and budgets

       and lets not forget a large chunk of voters, both left and right, aren’t exactly enlightened on LGBTI rights

       in short – if a news item isn’t going to help Key’s agenda he’s not going to have an enlightened thought on it till the pollings done
7. mauī 7

   14 June 2016 at 12:03 pm

   Don’t know if the tweets originated from this article, but relevant anyway: http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11656245
8. Lanthanide 8

   14 June 2016 at 12:04 pm

   So John Key only ever has certain opinions on things that he has witnessed first-hand?

   Perhaps that’s why he “can’t remember” what he thought about the tour.
   • Bob 8.1

     14 June 2016 at 1:24 pm

     Perhaps he is waiting for the Police in the US to conclude their investigations prior to passing judgement rather than jumping to conclusions?
     Let’s not forget, the gunman called 911 pledging support to Islamic State prior to the massacre, and the only information to go against this since is the word of his father who didn’t believe his sons call.

     The thing I find infuriating is the politicising of the deaths of these 50 people in posts like this that infer ‘John Key bad’, ‘Andrew little good’ based on one person awaiting an investigation to be carried out and another who has heard enough to make an educated assumption.
     • Lanthanide 8.1.1

       14 June 2016 at 1:58 pm

       It’s pretty simple to decide whether this was a hate crime, or not.

       That is a completely separate question as to whether it was inspired / instructed by ISIS or not.

       The evidence we have for deciding whether it was a hate crime:
       1. He specifically chose to target a gay club, as opposed to ‘the first nightclub he walked past’
       2. He has a record of making lots of racist and homophobic remarks, and was ‘disgusted’ by men kissing in front of his child
       3. Apparently he has visited the club at least a dozen times in the past and used gay dating apps on his phone. Seems like a case of self-hating homophobia

       Apparently the majority of the victims have been latino men; he may have been selecting who to shoot based on race as well.

       http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/florida-nightclub-shooting/81049475/orlando-gunman-had-used-gay-dating-app-visited-nightclub-witnesses-say
       • Bob 8.1.1.1

         14 June 2016 at 4:20 pm

         From your own link:
         “At least four regular customers of Pulse, the nightclub where the massacre took place, told the Orlando Sentinel on Monday that they believed they had seen Mateen there before. “Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent,” said Ty Smith, who also uses the name Aries. He saw Mateen at the club at least a dozen times, he said.”

         This could simply be a man that was struggling with his own sexuality and mental health that finally snapped. You cannot state with certainty that this was a hate crime, it is just the easy answer as to why something this horrible would occur. As Richardrawshard points out below, a political leader cannot simply jump to the simplest conclusion without first checking the facts, this is why even Obama hasn’t yet labelled this a hate crime or terrorism yet, are you condemning him too?
         • weka 8.1.1.1.1

           14 June 2016 at 4:27 pm

           Are you suggesting that it was a coincidence that it was a gay club rather than one with mixes of sexualities?
           • Bob 8.1.1.1.1.1

             14 June 2016 at 4:50 pm

             I’m suggesting he may have be frequenting a gay nightclub out of his own sexual desires, but the incompatibility of his feelings with the teachings of his faith, along with his own anger management (as his ex-wife pointed out)/potential mental health issues (again that his ex-wife inferred) lead to a horrific end.
             This is all speculation and conjecture, but has as much basis in fact as anything else that has been presented.

             The only thing I can see as being patently clear in this whole situation is that US’s gun laws are woefully inadequate.
             • Lanthanide …

               14 June 2016 at 4:58 pm

               “but the incompatibility of his feelings with the teachings of his faith”

               So homophobia, then. Taught to him by society / his faith.
             • weka …

               14 June 2016 at 4:58 pm

               Yes I understood your speculation. I don’t understand why that would mean it wasn’t homophobic and a hate crime.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 14 June 2016 at 7:32 pm

                 Yes I understood your speculation. I don’t understand why that would mean it wasn’t homophobic and a hate crime.

                 It would make it a hate crime against himself.
                 • weka …

                   14 June 2016 at 11:22 pm

                   Possibly, but it’s still a hate crime against the room full of LGBT people.
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               14 June 2016 at 5:02 pm

               Replying from the thread below: you agree with me that the problem is bigotry. Do you have a plan for identifying bigots and preventing them from arming themselves?

               Regular MRI scans to identify any abnormalities in the amygdala, perhaps?

               Nah. I reckon it’ll be far easier to simply reject right-wing values at a political level: after all, we’ve done it before. All it takes is to give the National Party enough access to the public purse for the electorate to remember what it is.
         • Lanthanide 8.1.1.1.2

           14 June 2016 at 4:57 pm

           Obama called it “an act of terror, an act of hate”.
     • the pigman 8.1.2

       15 June 2016 at 12:22 am

       +1, the less John Keys says, the better as far as I’m concerned.
9. Don't worry. Be happy 9

   14 June 2016 at 12:37 pm

   So Key doesn’t know that the Pulse nighclub massacre was a hate crime ? His ‘ignorance’ speaks volumes about how safe our queer friends and family are in NZ. Message received loud and clear Mr Key. Even if you will not remember we will never forget whose side you came down on today.
10. Ad 10

    14 June 2016 at 12:56 pm

    Probably not a good idea for Key to step onto another Gay Pride stage for a while.

    Little needs to send these signals out strong to this community, today.
11. Rosie 11

    14 June 2016 at 1:01 pm

    Oh, that is the worst thing he could say when an entire community, in Orlando and around the world are in mourning for the targeted attack on themselves and their friends. Seriously, what is wrong with him? This is far worse than his usual international blunders

    How can he freaking not know that? How can he say he has only got 2nd hand news about the largest mass shooting in the history of the U.S when he is a leader of a country that trades with, has an American Embassy here and diplomatic connections with that country?

    Or is happynz and Greg quite correct in saying “The PM wants the Crosby Textor line before he makes any further statements.”

    Or is it really like Mickey suggests, that Key and the right are wanting to follow trump down the ISIS bad guy path rather than the homophobe hate crime path. Does it suit their needs more?

    What on earth is wrong with him?

    EDIT: From Maui’s link “Mr Key said he hoped anti-Muslim comments such as those by presumptive Republican Presidential nominee Donald Trump would not escalate the situation.”

    So he DOES seem to have an awareness of religious prejudice in this case………..

    but this still stands “Mr Key said he did not have enough information to describe it primarily as a homophobic attack.”
12. Richardrawshark 12

    14 June 2016 at 1:03 pm

    I would consider it appropriate for any political leader to base his comments on facts not knee jerk reactions from all media with political motivation.

    Whether ISIL terrorism, LBGT terrorism and hate, or a mix of both, I don’t know yet,. the offender is dead.

    Trust the media, like fuck.

    So if Keys getting same info and Andrew’s getting the same info from the media, I think it’s more considered to wait, assess the information coming in and make a measure, informed comment later.

    Which is what Key’s doing, Now everyone here knows I hate the prick, but on this when I think he’s right to hold off, i’ll have to apply the same I would if had been Andrew as PM and spoke early. I’d criticize it.
    • BM 12.1

      14 June 2016 at 1:40 pm

      Only sensible comment on this thread.

      Andrew Little once again demonstrates that he doesn’t have the ability to be a PM.

      He’s so much better suited in the unions where every thing is more black and white, he’s just not mentally wired for the PM role.
      • TC 12.1.1

        14 June 2016 at 1:51 pm

        Yes dear
      • Crashcart 12.1.2

        14 June 2016 at 1:59 pm

        Yea I mean the guy picked a gay night club to shoot up. In no way does that indicate it was an attack on the LGBT community. I am sure if he went into a Synagogue and shot it up then right wingers would of held off calling it an attack on the Jewish community. My ass they would have.

        It is possible for it to both be a religious terrorist attack and also one directed against the LGBT community. What the hell do you need. A signed letter from the guy stating he hated gays and that is why he was doing it?
        • Richardrawshark 12.1.2.1

          14 June 2016 at 2:29 pm

          Agreed Crashcart, but you me and the media are not Prime ministers, Presidents or heads of state who, I suppose it’s a thing from my generation, should behave in a statesman like manner.

          From what’s coming out now he hated everyone, apparently he had a hate list for groups longer than Key’s lie list. This story is going to evolve, hence now I have to lower myself into the pits of hell and be agreeing with BM on something.

          Heads of state should not play on emotional outpouring to gain votes AKA Trump and anyone else.
        • Lanthanide 12.1.2.2

          14 June 2016 at 2:31 pm

          Yip, there is easily enough evidence to support this being a hate crime. I note that Obama hasn’t actually said the word “hate crime” yet, but he has said it was an “act of terror, an act of hate” and spoken at length about the LGBT community and what the nightclub meant to them – more than just a place to party.

          Now, I can appreciate that twitter doesn’t exactly allow long quotes, but Key should have said is something like:
          “I haven’t seen enough about whether homophobia was a specific motivation for this individual or not” and you could optionally add something along the lines of “but on the face of it, it does seem likely”.

          Instead he said: “All the info I’m getting is 2nd hand, so I just don’t know”, which suggests that he is getting a lot of information but it’s “2nd hand” so he doesn’t trust it, or refuses to draw conclusions from it. But it’s really an asinine thing to say, because it means he never draws conclusions for anything except what he has witnessed himself first hand.
          • Lanthanide 12.1.2.2.1

            14 June 2016 at 5:03 pm

            Right, so the link to the full shub article makes it clear that Key did pretty much say what I said. I still ping him in the general sense for saying “secondhand information” because almost everything we hear is secondhand information, so it’s redundant and trying to put distance between him and the event, which I don’t think is necessary.
      • Richardrawshark 12.1.3

        14 June 2016 at 2:31 pm

        -BM: Your first line was great, but then you got your deranged stick out and started poking people. Grow up.
      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.4

        14 June 2016 at 6:07 pm

        Only sensible comment on this thread.

        Not really. If someone walks into a gay bar and starts shooting you know damn well that it’s a hate crime. There may be other factors as well but the primary motive is hate.

        Andrew Little once again demonstrates that he doesn’t have the ability to be a PM.

        Contrary to Key Little has shown that he’s a leader.
        • Lanthanide 12.1.4.1

          14 June 2016 at 6:21 pm

          “Not really. If someone walks into a gay bar and starts shooting you know damn well that it’s a hate crime. There may be other factors as well but the primary motive is hate.”

          Eh, can’t agree with that. If someone just randomly went into a bar and started shooting, that happened to be a gay bar, then ‘hate’ may not be a motive at all.

          Of course, such events are unlikely, given the proportion of gay bars to straight bars.

          Also I find it a bit odd when people try and talk about “hate crimes” with little context; I mean all massacres are hateful. English is clumsy I guess.
          • Draco T Bastard 12.1.4.1.1

            14 June 2016 at 7:15 pm

            Eh, can’t agree with that. If someone just randomly went into a bar and started shooting, that happened to be a gay bar, then ‘hate’ may not be a motive at all.

            But I wasn’t talking about randomly and the guy obviously knew it was a gay bar when he walked in.
    • Bob 12.2

      14 June 2016 at 1:45 pm

      +1
    • infused 12.3

      14 June 2016 at 9:26 pm

      Pretty much. Little goes full retard when the full facts are not known.

      Since it turns out the man visited the night clubs many times before, littles may have jumped the gun.
13. weka 13

    14 June 2016 at 4:10 pm

    For the people that think it’s too early to call this homophobic violence, what do you think could potentially make it not homophobic? For instance, do you think that the killer didn’t realise he was in a gay nightclub and thought he was just shooting partiers?

    btw, If anyone has a link to an actual Shub article or video that would be helpful. The tweeted soundbite is completely out of context. Which doesn’t excuse Key, but we might also be being misled by the media.
    • Bob 13.1

      14 June 2016 at 4:24 pm

      Hey Weka,

      “For the people that think it’s too early to call this homophobic violence, what do you think could potentially make it not homophobic?”
      As I posted to Lanth above: http://thestandard.org.nz/key-on-pulse-nightclub-massacre/#comment-1188765
      • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1.1

        14 June 2016 at 4:35 pm

        How about if the bigot’s parents hadn’t mentioned his extreme reaction to men kissing in public? That might leave a little bit of doubt.

        I think there’s a reason right wingers prefer to blame “the other” rather than acknowledge bigotry: their beliefs are 100% motivated and characterised by bigotry.
        • Bob 13.1.1.1

          14 June 2016 at 4:52 pm

          See my reply to Weka above: http://thestandard.org.nz/key-on-pulse-nightclub-massacre/#comment-1188789
    • weka 13.2

      14 June 2016 at 4:25 pm

      http://www.newshub.co.nz/politics/key-refuses-to-say-orlando-attack-homophobic-2016061411#axzz4BWXOd7dl

      Ok, it’s pretty clear that there is reluctance to call it gay hatred, although why isn’t clear. Maybe the killer’s claim of ISIL connections is part of that reluctance, except that doesn’t make any sense unless one thinks that there is a political motivation in blaming the whole thing on ‘Islam’.

      It does remind me of the Montreal massacre where the killer went into a campus and shot only women. There was a big push back against calling it a hate crime against women and the media at the time basically pretended it was a coincidence that he only shot women.
      • One Anonymous Bloke 13.2.1

        14 June 2016 at 6:06 pm

        The reason not to call it bigotry is that that might lead to a general expectation that decisions made by Parliament or other authorities might be required to take notice of conditions on Earth.
        • weka 13.2.1.1

          14 June 2016 at 11:28 pm

          True, although I suspect what we are seeing is individuals being confronted with their own ignorance about homophobia (although that is such an inadequate word in this situation).
14. Jay 14

    14 June 2016 at 5:09 pm

    There’s as much to say it’s motivated by religious beliefs or mental illness, as it is by homophobia. Are we going to hate on Andrew Little though for NOT saying that religious killings and violent extremism must be challenged and defeated? Or for not pointing at that maybe it’s mental illness and the voices told him to do it?

    The shooter called 911 to say it was on behalf of ISIS, yet most here prefer to consider it homophobia. This mystifies me. Is throwing gay men off buildings homophobia or fanaticism? Considering Islam believes in death to gay men wouldn’t a logical conclusion be that this boy was a psychopathic religious fanatic as opposed to someone with an irrational fear of gay men?

    Isn’t John Key just being circumspect and waiting til he has the facts before he comments? The victims deserve the truth, once we KNOW why the offender did it then that should be the narrative. Andrew Little has called it already and that might in the long run prove to be very offensive.

    I find it so bizarre that most on the left shrink from drawing a link between a religion that is anti-gay and advocates subjugation of women and girls, and the behaviour of its proponents. Does it not seem odd that time and time again we see acts carried out that are exactly in line with the tenets of the religion of the offenders? Could there maybe be a link do you think? Or is that irrational and thereby “Islamophobia”?
    • McFlock 14.1

      14 June 2016 at 5:23 pm

      🙄

      I find it so bizarre that most on the left shrink from drawing a link between a religion that is anti-gay and advocates subjugation of women and girls, and the behaviour of its proponents.

      Sorry, to which religion are you referring again?

      Oh, and which tenet was he exactly in line with – chapter and verse, if you will…
    • Lanthanide 14.2

      14 June 2016 at 5:52 pm

      “Considering Islam believes in death to gay men wouldn’t a logical conclusion be that this boy was a psychopathic religious fanatic as opposed to someone with an irrational fear of gay men?”

      Firstly, homophobia, despite the literal meaning of the word, does not mean “irrational fear of gay men”. It has come to mean (in usage), any general dislike of homosexuality and homosexuals.

      Secondly, you’d just outlined that Islam is homophobic. So obviously if he was a psychopathic religious fanatic who specifically chose to attack gay people because of his faith, it’s still a homophobic action.

      On the other hand, you can be a psychopathic religious fanatic, go out on the street and kill random people – in that case you’re just a psychopath, but not homophobic.

      What makes this homophobic is:
      1. The victims
      2. That he went out of his way to target those victims (not just ‘any nightclub’)
      3. That he has been shown to have aggressively homophobic views (as well as racist)

      I find it so bizarre that this has to be spelt out to you that a particular action can both be homophobic and driven by religion.
      • North 14.2.1

        14 June 2016 at 6:08 pm

        Your last paragraph Lanth’ …… agreed !

        The Westboro Baptist Church aren’t driven by both ?
        • Lanthanide 14.2.1.1

          14 June 2016 at 6:15 pm

          It’s like saying the KKK aren’t racist, they’re just Christian.

          The mind boggles.
      • Richard Rawshark 14.2.2

        14 June 2016 at 9:39 pm

        The crusades from England, the massacres bought upon the muslims by King Richard the Lionheart against the very people you accuse of the same thing today. In exactly the same way, what do you call butchering every man woman and child the streets flowing with blood in Juruselem?

        Not having a go but after world war 2 they held juruselm and we just go and take it off them and dump the german Jewish people who refused to go back to Germany, demanded a state of their own and demanded the main religious area there is, who the Muslims were in possession of, since they took it back centuries ago.

        and people wonder why there’s a mulsim war against the west in many disguises, why they get infuriated by the wests arrogant attitude and refusal to talk the real reasons, it’s all somehow a wonder of the seventh kind.

        I mean why would a displaced person who’s family have fought oppression since 1945 be at all upset. /sarc
    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.3

      14 June 2016 at 6:41 pm

      I find it so bizarre that most on the left shrink from drawing a link between a religion that is anti-gay and advocates subjugation of women and girls, and the behaviour of its proponents.

      It hasn’t ever occurred to you that there might be other causes of hate speech and violence, nor that the Left is in fact the side that stands against these and other right wing values. Diddums.

      Or are you not so much ignorant as spinning a lie?
15. One Anonymous Bloke 15

    14 June 2016 at 6:37 pm

    The Prime Minister needs to make sure the way bigots think doesn’t become part of the conversation. So he proclaims his innocence.
    • Anne 15.1

      14 June 2016 at 8:27 pm

      I think you’ve got it there OAB. Bigotry exists across the political and religious spectrum, but it is primarily found among conservative and/or right wing religious communities. In other words… among people who [mostly] vote National.
16. stunned mullet 16

    14 June 2016 at 9:54 pm

    This blog really is fucked beyond all repair.
    • Paul 16.1

      14 June 2016 at 9:58 pm

      Still defending a government that will not house its citizens?
      Have you googled empathy yet?
      • Stunned mullet 16.1.1

        15 June 2016 at 7:06 am

        Have you googled Marvin the depressed robot ?

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