Maori Party in terminal decline

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1. marty mars 1

   24 January 2013 at 10:50 am

   How can Tariana sit on the limo seat if she has retired?

   My prediction is Katene will replace Turia. Flavell will take co-leadership with Sharples. The MP won’t merge with Mana. The MP will not win any seats in the next election. Oh and while I’m at it…

   key and shearer will both not be fighting the next election as the respective leaders of their centre parties.
2. xtasy 2

   24 January 2013 at 12:00 pm

   The Maori Party generally more or less appears to be a “dead” or “dying” party now.

   Founded initially upon Tariana Turia leaving Labour, due to issues with their foreshore and seabed legislation, Sharples and others joined her to establish a party to seek redress from what Labour introduced into law, and a kind of “movement” was started.

   The downfall of the Maori Party clearly started by going into a support agreement with a National led government, and to somehow at least passively “agree” to a range of controversial policies, naturally also to amend the law affecting foreshore and seabed matters.

   But Maori Party members – repeatedly told by their elected MPs, that the agreement with Key and his National led government is good, necessary and will bring more benefits than being in opposition, have increasingly felt hood-winked.

   Harawira brought on the challenges that arose through working with National and its other support parties. An internal rift developed, and Harawira left (or was forced to leave), to form Mana.

   Mana is supposed to be a new, inclusive “Left Party”, but most know, it is primarily led and organised by and through Harawira and his closest supporters. Yet he always wishes to emphasize, that Mana stands for the rights of Mana PLUS others, e.g. Pakeha, negatively affected by bad right wing policies.

   Maori Party support has dropped and they will struggle to get voted back into Parliament, since Tariana has announced her retreat. Sharples is just too much of an old power loving hanger-on now, as one must seriously question his ability to influence the decisions of the government he supports, and is member of as a Minister. Flavell made a challenge, but Maori Party leaders are too scared now to see it through.

   Harawira made comments on National Radio this morning, basically admitting, that Mana is in a way the other Maori Party. He talked about working together, some form of alliance, or something in that direction. He also presented his interest as a “leader” for Maori interests.

   There was suddenly not much talk about inclusiveness and Mana being more than just an “alternative Maori Party”.

   Looking up their website tells you enough, how it is run and what the priority political emphasis and support base is:
   http://mana.net.nz/
   http://mana.net.nz/2013/01/is-mana-maori-a-possibility/
   http://mana.net.nz/kaupapa-vision/

   It appears to be an “inclusive” party so far, through some images and presentation, but when looking closer, it becomes clearer to me, that Mana is primarily a party established by Harawira as “independent” MP for Tai Tokerau, who appears to have seen a need to try and boost membership and support by allowing in Minto, Bradford and a few others, to establish a wider set of leading members. Yet in polls it still struggles to get above the 1 per cent rate.

   See also this newspaper article from the Northern Advocate:
   http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/news/harawira-id-lead-maori-mana-party/1724449/

   So I feel, Harawira now has to come CLEAN, on what is ultimate mission is, where he stands, whether he really wants to be primarily a Maori leader, or to keep working on a more inclusive leftist party.

   My suspicions are, he wants to be the former, as that is what he feels more passionate about.

   Hence again, my conclusion is that not just is Labour in a situation where it is struggling to find a “new way” as a “left” or at least “left of centre” party, Mana is also about to fall to pieces, given Harawira’s newly revived true aspirations.

   Consequently, as the Greens are also not committed to be identified as “left” as such, or in principle, there is a TOTAL NEED and an ideal time now, to create and establish a NEW LEFT PARTY in NZ, that is truly left of centre and inclusive, not restircted to individual MPs or member’s interests and selected agendas.

   Maori Party will soon be “dead”, I would expect, at least no more than a party in a similar situation as ACT is in now.
   • fatty 2.1

     24 January 2013 at 12:25 pm

     So I feel, Harawira now has to come CLEAN, on what is ultimate mission is, where he stands, whether he really wants to be primarily a Maori leader, or to keep working on a more inclusive leftist party.

     Why does Mana have to be one or the other?

     there is a TOTAL NEED and an ideal time now, to create and establish a NEW LEFT PARTY in NZ, that is truly left of centre and inclusive, not restircted to individual MPs or member’s interests and selected agendas.

     If there was a left party created, what would you want their policies to be regarding Maori / Treaty?
     • McFlock 2.1.1

       24 January 2013 at 2:12 pm

       Probably similar to Mana.
       Just as the environmental policies would be similar to the Greens’.

       Neither of which are a broad left party.

       The difference is that between a narrow-focus party that adds policies (often after running them against the core focus first, and ditching left policies that might be inconsistent with the core focus), versus a “left” party that creates specific policies around a broader “left” perspective.
       • fatty 2.1.1.1

         24 January 2013 at 2:30 pm

         I’m not sure I understand…
         Has Mana compromised left policies?
         • McFlock 2.1.1.1.1

           24 January 2013 at 2:57 pm

           Let’s see.

           First policy on their website is Maori language.

           And no foreign or defense policies.

           Case rested.
           • fatty 2.1.1.1.1.1

             24 January 2013 at 3:05 pm

             First policy on their website is Maori language.

             How does using Te Reo compromise left policies?

             And no foreign or defense policies.

             foreign policy is here

             Not sure what you mean by defense policies…do you mean a return to our defense policies where we back the UK/USA and their wars?
             • McFlock …

               24 January 2013 at 3:19 pm

               Fair call on the FP (although it’s only a draft). Missed it on the main policy page and it’s kind’ve thin compared to e.g. Labour’s, but what the hey. And how does the Indigenous people’s “alternative constitution” idea interact with Fiji?
               NZAID?

               I’m not holding labour’s policy up as ideal in specifics, just in attention given to details rather than brush strokes that sound good.

               The language thing at the top illustrates their priorities quite nicely. How much space is devoted to Te Reo, and how much to Mana’s entire foreign policy?
               • fatty …

                 24 January 2013 at 3:41 pm

                 Perhaps NZ should get it’s fingers out of Fiji…is our relationship with them any different from USA to South America post 1970s?
                 NZAID is a form of neocolonialism, no need for that either. Mana’s foreign policy would do far more for the Global South, and the Pacific Islands, than a government funded, ethnocentric charity.

                 Mana is a minor party, so I think its unfair to judge them for having a ‘thin’ foreign policy.
                 Mana’s language focus should be encouraged. Kiwis should use both Te Reo and English. By putting language at the forefront, it puts culture before money, and is an example of what biculturalism should be…not our current neo-tribal biculturalism.
                 I see Mana’s ideology as promoting a new form of biculturalism, one that is not within a neoliberal paradigm.
                 Apparently we want a true Left party in NZ, but I’m yet to hear how it would differ from Mana
                 • McFlock …

                   24 January 2013 at 3:52 pm

                   Actually, NZAID was pretty good until the nats decided they wanted fp bang for their buck. That’s why they got rid of it. What overseas aid DO you support, or should we all just do nothing?

                   I did show you what was different: a Left party would have policies on those things and more. And it’s just as important for smaller parties to have well-rounded and deep policies, so we can see what it’s trying to compromise on to get cushy cabinet jobs.

                   But why isn’t housing at the top of the list? Workplace conditions? Unionisation? Health? Why is it Te Reo at the top of the list? Answer: because that’s their priority.
                   • fatty …

                     24 January 2013 at 4:37 pm

                     What overseas aid DO you support, or should we all just do nothing?

                     I support aid organisations that are not connected to governments, and ones that help people to keep their autonomy by resisting global capitalism. Very few NGOs to be honest. I see all forms of ‘development’ from the global north to the global south as very suspicious, especially alongside the usual suspects – WB, UN ect.

                     But why isn’t housing at the top of the list? Workplace conditions? Unionisation? Health? Why is it Te Reo at the top of the list? Answer: because that’s their priority.

                     Yes and no…Te Reo is at the top of their list, because its one of their main policies. See my comment below about their press releases.
                     For every one time that a Mana representative has promoted the introduction of Te Reo, I will show you 10 times a Mana representative has promoted housing/food as their primary concern.
                     Could probably do almost the same ratio for Treaty issues vs economic inequality.

                     But why isn’t housing at the top of the list? Workplace conditions? Unionisation? Health? Why is it Te Reo at the top of the list? Answer: because that’s their priority.

                     Don’t judge their focus on how their website is laid out.
                     Do a Google news search for Mana before this week (as the results will be saturated with the past 5 days). Search for their releases, sign up to their newsletter – you’ll see where their focus is.
                     Housing, employment, unions and health issues feature frequently.

                     Can you link me to anything where Hone is promoting Te Reo as their first focus?
                   • McFlock …

                     24 January 2013 at 4:48 pm

                     Private charities or just the UN then? piffle.

                     So the website bears no resemblance to their priorities.

                     Meh. Ok. That’s why I don’t support them, then. Untrustworthy.
                   • fatty …

                     24 January 2013 at 5:13 pm

                     Private charities or just the UN then? piffle.

                     No, any form of development by the UN should be questioned, not encouraged. And some private charities, not all.

                     So the website bears no resemblance to their priorities.

                     Nah, it resembles them. here’s the policy page: http://mana.net.nz/policy/
                     Te Reo, Treaty, health, livelihood (employment), economic, education, environment and energy, housing, wellbeing (welfare, violence etc), disability.

                     Do you dismiss them as a political party because they listed Te Reo first?

                     Meh. Ok. That’s why I don’t support them, then. Untrustworthy.

                     What did they promise, and then not deliver?..or what makes them untrustable?

                     If Mana had Te Reo was listed after education would they be more trustworthy?
                     Can you name one policy of Mana you would take out, and one you would put in?
                   • marty mars …

                     24 January 2013 at 10:26 pm

                     mcflock – I find the rationale that because te reo is first on the list that means that Mana isn’t left or trustworthy to be very weak indeed. It seems to me to be a smokescreen masking deep bullshit. I’d trust Mana for the ACTIONS they have taken not the words of you, no matter how much shit you’ve had to eat to make this country a nice place for yourself and your mates.

                     xtasy – now we know what you think you know and ho hum. Hone can’t represent his people and the country because… oh that’s right because he is indigenous and those things are mutually exclusive. It’s about time you accepted that without equality for tangata whenua there is no equality for anyone in the country whenever they turned up to live here.

                     Both of you imo are spinning rubbish because of what you are scared to lose and that mentality is what is wrong with this country and what is wrong with many of those who have come to live here. I don’t care if you support Mana or not – the movement is for those who want to make real change in our society, especially for the disadvantaged, who just happen to have an over representation of tangata whenua within their ranks.
                   • McFlock …

                     24 January 2013 at 10:48 pm

                     “scared to lose”?

                     lol
                     the party I actually support is the Alliance.

                     As for Mana actions, I don’t see much of them down here. Except, of course, Hone suggesting a merger with a Nact coalition partner.
                   • marty mars …

                     24 January 2013 at 10:56 pm

                     well dunners is a small place as we know perhaps look a bit wider, you know outside the ivory tower a bit.

                     Looking at the alliance website I notice that they put their “what we stand for”, “Alliance policies” in alphabetical order – oh dear arts and culture number one – what a letdown lol.
                   • marty mars …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:06 pm

                     Alliance Party Treaty of Waitangi Policy

                     Preamble

                     The Treaty of Waitangi is the basis for a genuine partnership between tangata whenua and the rest of the people of New Zealand. To this end, the Alliance will support and work with tangata whenua on initiatives in this area.

                     We stand for the following policies:

                     Redressing land and other grievances.

                     An accelerated Treaty settlement process with increased resources to the Waitangi Tribunal and related institutions.

                     Safe-guarding of Maori customary rights guaranteed under the Treaty.

                     The democratic organisation of Iwi and urban Maori to ensure all Maori benefit form land and other compensation gained under the Treaty settlement process.

                     Nurturing te reo as the “first” language of New Zealand by supporting kohanga reo, kura kaupapa and whare wananga, as well as Maori broadcasting, including television and radio.

                     Improved participation of Maori and access to health, education and social services.

                     http://alliance.org.nz/what-we-stand-for/alliance-policies/alliance-party-treaty-of-waitangi-policy/

                     Genuine partnership, The ‘first’ language – oops are you sure you support these nutters
                   • McFlock …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:11 pm

                     lol
                     “ivory tower”.

                     Yeah – say that to Hillside.
                   • marty mars …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:14 pm

                     yeah I thought you’d bite at that 🙂
                   • McFlock …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:17 pm

                     lol
                   • McFlock …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:23 pm

                     Did Mana actually issue a release about Hillside? Most other parties did. Even the Alliance.
                   • marty mars …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:28 pm

                     Not sure but will check. I’d be surprised if they didn’t but maybe that was around the time Hone was getting arrested for direct action in support of those disadvantaged losing their place to live.

                     I’ll come back to you tomorrow – got an early start in the morning.
                   • McFlock …

                     24 January 2013 at 11:37 pm

                     cool. It just wasn’t coming up on google. Wouldn’t be my first gFail, though 🙂
                   • xtasy …

                     25 January 2013 at 2:33 am

                     To Marty Mars:

                     “xtasy – now we know what you think you know and ho hum. Hone can’t represent his people and the country because… oh that’s right because he is indigenous and those things are mutually exclusive.”

                     This kind of misjudgment of criticism and attack is exactly what will turn too many people in NZ, Maori, Pakeha or migrants from wherever off, from voting for Mana and Hone’s team!

                     I did not raise questions about Hone and Mana, because of his ethnicity or being tangata whenua, I raised questions, because it was him, who did the last few days expose some bizarre sense of “opportunism” and excitement, saying Maori Party members had contacted him, to suggest he take over as leader.

                     Hone goes on public radio raising thoughts of merging with Maori Party, or forming an alliance of sorts, with him being the preferred leader of his party and MP.

                     Now, we know, what the Maori Party has stood for the last few years, and that many of their voters may just be conservative minded people like National voters are, or Labour voters are in some cases, and that MP is supporting National.

                     So when a leader of a supposedly “left” party starts flirting with conservative folk, of his cultural and ethnic background, to perhaps grab an opportunity to advance his personal aspirations, then there is good and justified reason to question where this would leave Mana!
                   • marty mars …

                     25 January 2013 at 7:42 am

                     x – you see opportunism but i see smart pragmatism totally in alignment with values and kaupapa. This is a time honoured technique for tangata whenua throughout history to lessen conflict and create the ability to move forward. There are many examples of this including enemies allowing relatives (often of both sides) to go to the besieged and permitting them to leave (albeit quietly) the killing grounds. This maintains mana and stops decimation and unnecessary death.

                     Sure, the approach is foreign to western ideals but it is valued within Maoridom.

                     I hope that answers the question and puts your fears to rest.
                   • vto …

                     25 January 2013 at 7:57 am

                     Marty mars “There are many examples of this including enemies allowing relatives (often of both sides) to go to the besieged and permitting them to leave (albeit quietly) the killing grounds. This maintains mana and stops decimation and unnecessary death.

                     Sure, the approach is foreign to western ideals but it is valued within Maoridom.”

                     That is not foreign to western ideals. I think you will find that it is common across most all cultures, with exceptions from time to time. Why would you think it is foreign?
                   • marty mars …

                     25 January 2013 at 8:18 am

                     sure vto – fairish point
                   • McFlock …

                     25 January 2013 at 1:16 pm

                     marty mars:

                     so did the broad left mana party with a nationwide focus say or do anything about the hillside redundancies? I still haven’t found anything, but that proves nowt.
                   • marty mars …

                     25 January 2013 at 1:35 pm

                     can’t find anything so I’d have to say that it looks like they didn’t issue a statement about that.

                     I did like the alliance’s statement – good job.

                     Pity the alliance supporters don’t add their expertise and obvious skills to help grow Mana. Often the MP is stated as the parent of Mana but there does appear to be a few alliance traits in there as well and not just Matt.

                     I have to say that I didn’t realise that the alliance were still going. I still think Sandra Lee was one of the best we have had in parliament and it was nice to see Mana Motuhake in the mix of parties that make/made up the alliance – perhaps it shows that it can be done if people want to do it.

                     Not really much evidence of this non-left Mana though imo.
                   • fatty …

                     25 January 2013 at 1:40 pm

                     so did the broad left mana party with a nationwide focus say or do anything about the hillside redundancies? I still haven’t found anything, but that proves nowt.

                     This was all I could find

                     Its a catch 22 situation. Mana is a small party with limited resources (that is why I don’t accept the argument that their policies are not as thorough as Labour’s).
                     Do you think Mana should have focused resources on Hillside, when it is quite clear that people from Dunedin are not receptive to the Mana party?
                     Same goes with Chch – where is Mana’s visibility there? I wish they were doing more in Chch, God knows we need them, but its a waste of limited resources.

                     While Minto was in Dunedin meeting with the Hillside workers, Minto also launched Mana in Dunedin that day…did you go to listen to Mana’s message?

                     So Mana went and talked to the Hillside workers, set up a launch event in Dunedin, and probably had almost nobody turn up (just a guess)…should Mana invest more time and money into the Hillside issue, or focus their attention on other companies being sent offshore?
                   • McFlock …

                     25 January 2013 at 2:13 pm

                     Didn’t go – work is a bitch sometimes.

                     Saw those though – yep, Mana reps visited Hillside during the election campaign. So did many others. Since then? zip.
                   • marty mars …

                     25 January 2013 at 3:04 pm

                     so because there wasn’t a press release about Hillside you think Mana doesn’t care about those workers – very weak indeed, just like your assertion that Mana is untrustworthy or not based around the principles of ‘left’. As I said upstream “deep bullshit” indeed.
                   • McFlock …

                     25 January 2013 at 3:17 pm

                     Doesn’t care enough to notice what happened and then upload a press release to scoop, anyway.

                     Fuck it. I’m in Otago. Why should I support someone who doesn’t even notice Otago exists (outside the election campaign of course)? And yes, a broad left party needs to have a nationwide focus, not just a North Island one.
                   • marty mars …

                     25 January 2013 at 7:08 pm

                     that shit below to fatty is terrible – you’ve lost it again and why – because your argument is useless and you know it – what a fucken wanker you are. Go save someone elses world bullshit artist.
                   • McFlock …

                     26 January 2013 at 6:42 pm

                     “save the world”?

                     Whatever.
                     Apparently I’m a racist because I don’t see Te Reo as the most pressing issue in NZ today. That is a rational argument to you?
                 • fatty …

                   25 January 2013 at 2:44 pm

                   Didn’t go – work is a bitch sometimes.

                   That’s a shame, they did have it from 5pm-8pm on a Friday. You’d be one of few people that work during those hours. Are you a bartender?

                   Saw those though – yep, Mana reps visited Hillside during the election campaign. So did many others. Since then? zip.

                   Yeah, zip. here is the reason why
                   Its been an enlightening discussion from you McFlock. You have come up with 2 critiques of Mana;
                   1 – Their policy overview begins with Te Reo
                   2 – They have not focused attention on Hillside

                   Surprisingly, your first critique is more logical than your second, but its a very eurocentric view that you should probably keep to yourself next time.
                   Anything else to add? (its an open question for you, I give up on asking you more direct questions as you ignore them time and time again)
                   • McFlock …

                     25 January 2013 at 3:10 pm

                     IT. I keep irregular hours. So much for recognising the diversity of the modern workforce. You might be on the piss on a friday night, but other things are going on, too.

                     Hillside was important enough, as both a large-scale redundancy from a government-owned enterprise AND an asset sale point of view, for pretty much every other non-government or active left-wing party to issue a release on. Even non-parliamentary ones.

                     Either Mana has an active branch in Dunedin and Otago is on its policy radar, or it made a tactical decision to ignore issues in an electorate where it has no support. You can’t have it both ways. Small party? Big deal. If it’s too small to even issue a 500 word press release about a major political issue in my town, why should I vote for it?

                     Their policy is not alphabetically-listed, which implies a hierarchy to their priorities. So yes, starting with language rather than food, housing employment or the environment DOES say something about their ability to represent me as a pakeha Dunedinite.

                     And no, I don’t see any reason to vote for someone to represent somebody else. At the very least it would be me using my vote to patronise other people who are perfectly capable of deciding whom would be their best representative. And the suggestion goes downhill from there. So you can take your implicit accusation of racism and go fuck yourself with it.
                   • fatty …

                     25 January 2013 at 4:31 pm

                     Either Mana has an active branch in Dunedin and Otago is on its policy radar, or it made a tactical decision to ignore issues in an electorate where it has no support. You can’t have it both ways.

                     I never said it had an active branch in Dunedin, I made it quite clear that I think Mana made a tactical decision to ignore an electorate that ignores Mana.

                     And no, I don’t see any reason to vote for someone to represent somebody else.

                     …said that National voter, the ACT voter…and McFlock.
                     Hillside was not major news in NZ sorry, its one of many companies that have outsourced and closed their doors.

                     Their policy is not alphabetically-listed, which implies a hierarchy to their priorities. So yes, starting with language rather than food, housing employment or the environment DOES say something about their ability to represent me as a pakeha Dunedinite…So you can take your implicit accusation of racism and go fuck yourself with it.

                     Oh dear…
                     Let me get this right, you don’t want them to put Te Reo first on their website because your identity is primarily defined as a Pakeha from a mostly Pakeha city?
                     I will stick with implicitly accusing you of racism, because you have appeared to have gone and fucked yourself with your comments.
                   • McFlock …

                     25 January 2013 at 4:51 pm

                     I never said it had an active branch in Dunedin, I made it quite clear that I think Mana made a tactical decision to ignore an electorate that ignores Mana.

                     Even assuming that closure of the Hillside workshops is not a national issue that pertains directly to our national rail infrastructure, basically their anti-privatisation platform only counts in electorates that support them?
                     Labour, NZ1, Greens and even the Alliance manage to express disapproval at the closure and eventual sale of a state asset. Mana… not so much.

                     Hone gets arrested at a protest for one house in Auckland.
                     Not so much as a press release for a factory closure down south.

                     Why should I consider voting for them again?

                     And no, I don’t see any reason to vote for someone to represent somebody else.
                     
                     …said that National voter, the ACT voter…and McFlock.

                     Oh bullshit. NACT rely on people voting for them against their own best interests.

                     But of course, me voting for Mana because I patronisingly believe that Mana is the best party to represent Maori (and those electorates north of the Bombay hills that support Mana enough to get their attention) would be fine /sarc

                     Let me get this right, you don’t want them to put Te Reo first on their website because your identity is primarily defined as a Pakeha from a mostly Pakeha city?

                     “Primarily defined”? No. Learn to read.
                     If I said I were Maori I’d be a liar. Te Reo is Mana’s first priority. Good for them. It ain’t mine, even if I agree with their policy or not.
                     Of all the policies they can put at the top of the list, they chose language. That says a lot about whom they’re trying to connect with. And it’s not me.

                     And seeing as you’ve gone explicit, go fuck yourself, and the wee twinge of consideration I had about voting Mana in 2011 is gone. Fuck you and the JAFA you rode in on.
                   • fatty …

                     25 January 2013 at 9:18 pm

                     And seeing as you’ve gone explicit, go fuck yourself, and the wee twinge of consideration I had about voting Mana in 2011 is gone. Fuck you and the JAFA you rode in on.

                     To be fair, you did tell me to fuck myself first, I talk to most people on here they way they talk to me.
                     Is Hone Harawira just another fuckin’ Aucklander to you?
                     Shit…provincialism to add to your undertones of racism. Nice

                     Privatisation comes from the central Government and it doesn’t matter if its the factory over the fence or the factory 1000KMs away closes. Its the ideology of the Government that caused the closure.
                     Mana were always going to have an MP speaking out against privatisation, Allience was never going to have an MP speaking out about privatisation.
                     Nothing will change in 2014, either vote green/mana/labour or throw your vote away again.
                     If Allience had a seat, I’d probably vote for them, I like their policies, I don’t give a shit about the order of their website, and I want Allience fighting the big issues. I couldn’t give a shit if they are saving the factory in my backyard, or a factory in the North Island, as long as they make the best use of their resources.
                   • Colonial Viper …

                     25 January 2013 at 9:22 pm

                     FFS Mana has the resources of one MP located on the opposite end of the country from Hillside Workshops.

                     Don’t be surprised if they can’t cover all the bases that parties 10x and 30x its size can, OK?
                   • McFlock …

                     25 January 2013 at 11:20 pm

                     But CV, Mana are supposedly more than just Hone. And they can’t match the response of larger parties like Alliance? harrumph.

                     fatty – yeah, someone expects my vote and does nothing to help my community, that calls for provincialism. You dropped the racism bomb because I choose not to vote for a party that, according to you, will assist my entire community only as a result of some sort of ‘collateral assistance’ (to adapt a military euphemism). So don’t get all precious.

                     Hillside is part of the entire privatisation problem. A piece of core infrastructure willfully allowed to decay and die. A discrete unit destroyed in its entirety. To hell with an MP, not even 300 words speaking out against that privatisation. Pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
                   • fatty …

                     26 January 2013 at 5:49 am

                     You dropped the racism bomb because I choose not to vote for a party that, according to you, will assist my entire community only as a result of some sort of ‘collateral assistance’ (to adapt a military euphemism). So don’t get all precious.

                     Nah, I dropped the racist bomb because of what you wrote and what you deem to be the shortcomings of Mana.
                     The left seriously needs to learn how to use the party vote, and how to use the electorate vote
                   • McFlock …

                     26 January 2013 at 6:16 pm

                     what you deem to be the shortcomings of Mana.

                     You mean “the reason why I won’t vote for them”. Mana might very well be the right choice for other people – maybe people for whom language is the first issue that needs to be discussed in this country, or people in communities where Mana shows an interest.

                     But calling me racist because I happen to think that Housing and unemployment should be farther up the queue than Te Reo? Get a life.
                   • fatty …

                     26 January 2013 at 7:00 pm

                     McFlock, this press release / website layout critique of yours contradicts itself.

                     One the one hand, you won’t give Mana the time of day because they didn’t write a 300 word press release about Hillside.
                     One the other hand, the way Mana’s policies are laid out on their website defines their priorities.

                     So which is it McFlock?..do their press releases or the order of their website represent their real priorities?

                     If you say it is press releases, then trawl through their press releases and let me know when you get to a Te Reo release…bonus point if you find a press release that puts Te Reo as their primary policy focus (you’ll also note how housing and unemployment feature regularly in their press releases)

                     If you don’t think it is press releases, then the Hillside issue is blown out of proportion.
                     Press releases or website layout?
                   • McFlock …

                     26 January 2013 at 7:20 pm

                     It’s both.

                     It’s what they choose to prioritise in regards to do with policy, and what they choose to do tactically on a daily basis.

                     The hillside issue is one case where I think they dropped the ball not just on regional issues, but nation-wide privatisation and infrastructure issues, too. But then it’s not the only reason I won’t be voting for them, by any means.
                 • marty mars …

                   26 January 2013 at 9:39 am

                   I amazed you are continuing with this line mcflock that because one specific incident has occurred or not occurred that taints an entire party. You ignore all of the arguments put up and stubbornly stick to the line – they didn’t write 300 words about Hillside so therefore they don’t care about Dunedin or anywhere else and because of that they aren’t a left party and they can get fucked.

                   How the hell did that attitude go down when the alliance was something? What did Mana Motuhake and the other parties within the alliance think of that and I ask because I always considered the alliance to be pretty progressive and not smalltownish at all – maybe I have that all wrong. I really thought your quips about dunners were good natured but seriously this small time thinking is pathetic.

                   This te reo issue you have is also amazing to me – just because it is number one on the website that convinces you that Mana are useless or that their priorities don’t align with you.

                   Do you agree with the alliance treaty of waitangi policy?
                   • McFlock …

                     26 January 2013 at 6:38 pm

                     Yep. Listed alphabetically, no policy prioritised over the others. And more in depth in more areas, too.

                     Hillside is simply a good example of why I think Mana is a narrow issue and geographically limited party. I wonder what they reckon about Gisborne-Napier rail link? They might be “left” like the Greens, but a broad left party? Nope.

                     Yeah, regionalism comes into it, too. Especially when resources are tight. Politicians like resources to go closer to home and the media. Resources like cops. So why should I vote for a “left” party that looks like it’ll just continue that bias? The Alliance, at one or two conferences I was at, represented people from all over, and attempted to address the concerns. Local organisations would keep national office in the loop on local issues. It’s not what it as, but I respect what it tried to do.

                     Am I turned off voting for Mana JUST because of their policy priorities?
                     Nope.
                     JUST because they drop the ball on regional issues?
                     Nope.
                     JUST because Hone wants a remerger with the Maori party sellouts?
                     Close, but nope.

                     All of the above, and the sanctimonious bullshit of Te Reo not being my first policy priority, therefore I must be racist?
                     Fuck yes. Reinforced my decision nicely.
                 • marty mars …

                   26 January 2013 at 8:08 pm

                   Well fair enough mcflock. Kia ora for explaining your views. I still think you are a wanker for holding them but such is life. All the best with the alliance.
                   • McFlock …

                     26 January 2013 at 9:41 pm

                     Yeah, well, that’s all we can ask for in the end.
     • The Al1en 2.1.2

       24 January 2013 at 10:45 pm

       “If there was a left party created, what would you want their policies to be regarding Maori / Treaty?”

       Far be it from an immigrant to tell Maori how to conduct their affairs, but seeing you asked, for starters…

       An elected Maori grand council; with a set number of cabinet seats regardless of which flavour of government election day brings.
     • xtasy 2.1.3

       25 January 2013 at 2:16 am

       fatty:

       “Why does Mana have to be one or the other?”

       Mana as it is at present would not need to be one or the other, BUT by having Hone suggest to Maori Party members to join Mana, or to re-merge, or to create a kind of alliance, he has himself raised questions about the direction of Mana.

       Quote from above:

       “Harawira has offered a re-merger, something he has predicted since MANA was founded.”

       The Maori Party members and present and previous supporters are in large numbers not necessarily “left”, they are in part actually quite conservative folk, prepared to negotiate shares in SOEs to be sold as partial assets in the MOM companies.

       So how would that work? Working with them would mean a kind of compromise for Mana, it would lose it’s direction and instead revert to more of the alternative “Maori Party”. Mana only started to become a broader focused “left” party after Harawira realised he did not attract the support he had hoped for. He rather split the Maori vote.

       What is a disaster for the opposition in NZ is that there are now four opposition parties in Parliament, being Labour (more and more centre right), the Greens (interventionist, mainly pro environment with a social conscience, but not truly “left” as such), “NZ First” (nationalistic kind of “well meaning” conservatives) and Mana (represented by Hone alone in the House, with Minto, Sykes, Bradford and a few keen to get in, but with little wider “appeal”, due to their personal backgrounds of trench fighters).

       This splits the force and potential of the opposition. So combining the best of all, and bringing this into ONE new major left of centre party, that has no bad baggage like Labour, that is the real opportunity in waiting. Sadly too few seem to see the potential there.

       Well positioned, with ideas, a good set of policies, uniting best ideas of all opposition parties, and briging in new talent and faces, that would be a win win scenario.
       • marty mars 2.1.3.1

         25 January 2013 at 8:23 am

         “Mana only started to become a broader focused “left” party after Harawira realised he did not attract the support he had hoped for.”

         x – that is not true and is a slur on Hone and Mana. Stop making stuff up to push your agenda mate.
       • fatty 2.1.3.2

         25 January 2013 at 10:22 am

         Mana as it is at present would not need to be one or the other, BUT by having Hone suggest to Maori Party members to join Mana, or to re-merge, or to create a kind of alliance, he has himself raised questions about the direction of Mana…So how would that work? Working with them would mean a kind of compromise for Mana, it would lose it’s direction and instead revert to more of the alternative “Maori Party”.

         How would that work? Hone talks about it at the end of this clip here, it would basically mean the Maori Party ditch most of their policies and end their partnership with National. What policy, or policies do you think Mana get rid of?

         The Maori Party members and present and previous supporters are in large numbers not necessarily “left”, they are in part actually quite conservative folk, prepared to negotiate shares in SOEs to be sold as partial assets in the MOM companies.

         In large numbers? Can you prove that? …Maori Party membership has fallen from about 24000 to 600. Do you mean a large part of the 600 left?

         Mana only started to become a broader focused “left” party after Harawira realised he did not attract the support he had hoped for.

         Marty Mars has called this out, and I will too. Who said this? I remember it being repeated on TV1 & 3 by the usual suspects…

         Your point on a split left is interesting, and worthy of another discussion…its the failure of Labour that has caused the need for multiple left parties. I think I remember Hone saying his policies are not radical, they are what Labour should be.
       • marty mars 2.1.3.3

         25 January 2013 at 10:37 am

         I’ll also add this post of mine from 2 years ago which showed my (perhaps misplaced) faith in the people of this country.

         The more i think about this Left Maori Party the more I see the potential of this. If the party vote entitles the party to get more seats – they get them. That means that anyone who agrees with the policies of the party can vote for it.

         and concluding with

         When you really think on it there is no actual reason why a Left Maori Party could not represent many people: people who believe in the kaupapa.

         http://mars2earth.blogspot.co.nz/2011/01/left-maori-party.html

         Two years and some of this has happened, but the journey has really just begun and it is a journey of integrity, social justice and equality.
   • Lanthanide 2.2

     24 January 2013 at 1:24 pm

     I had the same thoughts about Hone saying these things, given that he really tried to portray Mana as “the poor peoples party” and not “the other maori party” at the last election.
     • fatty 2.2.1

       24 January 2013 at 2:05 pm

       really?…what makes you think that?
       From what I have seen Mana was presented as the poor people’s party and the other Maori party prior to the last election, and they have continued with this.
       This clip from June 2011 shows Hone predicting Mana-Maori will combine (5.40min)…Maori issues were at the forefront of Mana pre-election.

       Treaty issues were central to Mana pre-election, in addition, economic inequality has been a pressing issue since the election.
       Check Mana’s press releases…apart from the one yesterday that was about combining Mana and the Maori Party, the issues covered have been (in order):
       Air NZ prices, milk in schools, alcohol, water rights under the Treaty, feed the kids, drilling, TPPA, fracking, MP-National relationship, housing, feeding kids, state housing, feeding keids…you get the idea.
       • xtasy 2.2.1.1

         25 January 2013 at 2:21 am

         “the issues covered have been (in order):
         Air NZ prices, milk in schools, alcohol, water rights under the Treaty, feed the kids, drilling, TPPA, fracking, MP-National relationship, housing, feeding kids, state housing, feeding keids…you get the idea.”

         This is well the case, but it only became so, after you had a number of well-known leftists decide to join Mana some time after it was founded by Harawira and his close circle.

         He himself did before the opening up of Mana never cover such a wide range of policies, which really came to become part of Mana’s present policies, after others brought these ideas and priorities in.
         • marty mars 2.2.1.1.1

           25 January 2013 at 10:41 am

           I’ll just say again that that is not true – you have got it wrong and are not informed correctly. Time for you to put some evidence up or preface your comments with IMO because that is all it is, ill informed opinion.
           • xtasy 2.2.1.1.1.1

             25 January 2013 at 4:13 pm

             If you can prove this wrong, that according to admittedly not always correct MSM Hone founded and registered Mana before Minto and others were themselves directly, seriously involved, then I will take your point, marty mars and also fatty:

             http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5190569/Hone-Harawiras-new-party-made-official

             http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10725925

             https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana_Party_%28New_Zealand%29

             To me it looks a bit like Hone showed political expediency by opening up and welcoming supporters from leftist activists and others, who were interested in joining forces with him, making Mana a wider platform for political change.

             There is nothing wrong with that, just the recent comments by Hone raised questions.
             • marty mars …

               25 January 2013 at 7:54 pm

               I suppose discussions will have begun early on and the exact timeline is fuzzy but I take your point. My understanding is that the wider platform was always under consideration at a pretty traumatic time for Hone, but he had strong support that translated into the party we see today.
         • fatty 2.2.1.1.2

           25 January 2013 at 11:05 am

           Who was Hone’s close friends? Who were the left’s that came in?

           I’m interested to know what you think, because I have heard time and again that Hone didn’t care about class before Mana, and Bradford didn’t care about Maori issues before Mana.

           I’ve heard it by the usual TV political heads, but never really believe them. I’ve even read about it on Bryce Edwards blog, written by John Moore here, but all arguments about this appear to reinforce this idea that Maori politics can only fit within a neoliberal/thirdway context, or alongside another identity focus.
           Weird how when the Greens combine environmentalism with left wing politics there is not this identity vs class hysteria that has been repeatedly aimed at Mana.
           The problem with having this identity vs class dichotomy is that it plays into the hands of the neolibs by ensuring that identity politics, in particular Maori, remains a vehicle for neoliberalism. For example, Whanau Ora.
     • marty mars 2.2.2

       24 January 2013 at 10:32 pm

       “the poor peoples party” and not “the other maori party” – they are the same in any practical sense aren’t they.
   • bad12 2.3

     24 January 2013 at 11:16 pm

     The fact that you see the Mana Party as simply promoting Maori issues just tells me your mind is locked in a mono-cultural cell,

     The real fact is that Mana and Harawira as it’s leader consistently advocates for policy to alleviate the economic burden of the low waged and beneficiaries, it is circumstantial in terms of the politics that both Harawira and a high % of those He advocates for are Maori…
3. Peter 3

   24 January 2013 at 12:00 pm

   Key will stay, that Cabinet reshuffle indicates that he hasn’t given up on a third term. After all, right now, what are the other options? Collins, Joyce, Bennett, or maybe a return of English. Of that lot, Collins is the Nats only option for an alternative leader, and she probably doesn’t have the numbers. Joyce prefers the backroom. Bennett, whilst Labour can hardly touch her in the House, probably can’t lead a party. English would, but I doubt he wants it, or could get it. He prefers to control things through the money, and probably keeps backing Key. After all, why boot out economic dries like Wilkinson and Heatley, and bring back English’s mate, Nick Smith?

   There’s more chance of Simon Power getting bored with banking and coming back…

   So no, Key will stay.

   As for Labour, well, anyone’s guess as to what happens in February. Shearer may stay, he may go. If it gets to a party-wide vote, he’s gone. Why else would hundreds, if not thousands of people rejoin the party prior to Christmas (yes, I rejoined too) to vote for Shearer to stay. They joined to vote Shearer out, no question about that. If a ballot is triggered, he’s gone.

   On the Maori Party’s woes, all self-inflicted. I still feel a bit sorry for Sharples, a nice guy who probably wasn’t suited to politics. I don’t think that they will merge, not this term, and that they’ll win no seats at the election. Mana will win one, maybe two seats, and Labour will get the rest.
4. McFlock 4

   24 January 2013 at 12:14 pm

   I have a lot of respect for Katene. She’d be an excellent co-leader, and it’d be a gross miss-step to choose some allegedly malleable (but probably kooky, as these choices end up being) inexperienced nobody.
   • bad12 4.1

     24 January 2013 at 4:59 pm

     Yes i agree that Rahui Katene is a capable politician who here in Te Tai Tonga paid part of the price of the Maori Party support for the present FAILURE of the Slippery lead National Government,

     Forget tho notions of a co-leadership, if Katene is to inherit Tariana Turia’s electorate on my current reading of the chickens entrails She will in fact be the only Maori Party MP in the Parliament after November 2014 as i believe Annette Sykes now has the support to unseat Flavell from Waiariki,and Sharples could probably be right now be unseated by the Conservatives Colin Craig for all the personal support He now retains,

     In a way it is with sadness that i sit here pronouncing the Tangi for the Maori Party to already have begun,(reminds me of Marley’s see them fighting for power but they know not the hour),as it equally gladdened my cynical old heart to see a young generation of Maori upon the formation of that Maori Party become so politically engaged as to venture out door-knocking on behalf of the Maori electorates,(considering some of the reactions they would have and did face from many in the wider community),

     It was glaringly obvious here in Te Tai Tonga as the Maori flags drooped to half mast and then along with the bumper stickers all but disappeared that the Party had committed political suicide by entering a coalition with National albeit the poison contained within the chalice has take it’s time to snuff out the last flickers of a dying light…
5. vivaciousviper 5

   24 January 2013 at 1:37 pm

   Thanks for the humour,i had a giggle when i read the first paragraph, it is a mess indeed.
   The maori leaders need to take the blame for the demise of the maori party,they turned
   their backs on the maori people and their needs in order to support a Key led govt that has
   trashed living standards and couldn’t give a continental for the kids going hungry because the parents are living on the bones of their arses,working or not working.
   Clark turned her back on the maori people too and in turn lost the election.
   Turia is standing down, Sharples is hanging on to the broken parachute, the question is
   “What is more important,the people or the power”

Links to post

1. Annette Sykes: a future MP? « The Standard: posted on 25 January 2013 at 8:37 am

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