Written By: - Date published: 10:36 pm, August 4th, 2008 - 87 comments
Categories: assets, bill english, john key, national, privatisation, slippery -
Tags: competence
The English tape has exploded into a massive scandal. You’ll be familiar with the content of the recording:
But what’s extraordinary is English’s reaction. At first, it seemed he was going down the classic Crosby/Textor line – deny the conversation, say you don’t remember etc (a la Key when he said he “would love to see wages drop“). He could have crawled away, tail between legs and hoped this would die quickly. But on TV1 tonight, he did something incredible – four times, when asked whether he thought Key did understand Working for Families, English said “it’s a complicated policy” (it’s not, see the trade-offs above); he refused to say ‘yes, Key does understand it’.
English is saying Key is incapable of understanding WfF. That, and the comments on the tape, constitute a blatant attack on Key’s leadership of National. English, 15 year veteran MP, knew exactly what he was saying: Key is not competent to deal in real policy; incapable of doing the job of Prime Minister.
Key cannot allow this to stand unanswered; the Key-English leadership team can no longer credibility survive. The only questions are: which of them is going to go? And how quickly?
Facebook
Twitter
Scoopit!
“So, you think that they’ll vote Labour anyway?”
No I didnt mean growth in the public service – i meant private enterprise. But as none of you have experianced it, i cant expect you to understand
Tane – apologies – should have clarified that I was referring only to the online version. I have not seen the Dom Post today and should have clarified that.
My comments re secret recordings were not meant to be one-sided. SP I take your word about your reaction but certainly others here responded differently. Personally, I think the public despises any politician of any hue for saying different things in different situations.
To repeat my pov, it is definitely embarrassing that English put himself in this position.
I must admit I’m a little surprised that English didn’t play the game but I still don’t see it as a scandal. I noted in an earlier post that power doesn’t always rest at the very top – by that I mean the ability to influence and drive policy/strategy.
Obviously worth exploring further but it’s not Watergate nor does it look like derailing National at least on what is so far presented.
I get the feeling that this election will be the most brutal.
“The bottom line is If National does not get 47% then it is the Maori Party who hold the power to Government formation
The answer is going to be who is the most likely to do the deal
IWI/KIWI anyone ?”
Wreckers and Haters….
Also if NZF dont make it, those votes will be reallocated (many of which will go to National) United could deal with National….
Say National get 44%. Act and United get 2% each. National could pick up the balance needed by the redistribution of those votes for parties that dont make the threshold
This just in …
National party deputy leader Bill English has issued a statement taking back comments he made about selling off Kiwibank and seeking to play down talk of him criticising John Key.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10525377
[Tane: Russell, sorry for the delay, you got caught in the spam trap.]
Daveski. I don’t recall being outraged by the Williams recording, I recall being pissed off with Williams for agreeing with something so stupid that he ought to have known was wrong because people I had spoken to months ago had said it wasn’t possible.
From memory, you and your fellow bloggers ignored the issue. What else could we expect from a bunch of partisan hacks?
[Tane: Blar, a quick search pulled up this - http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=1743. Apology welcome.]
sdm if none of us have experienced private enterprise, then Key eats babies and pisses crude oil into the Waikato for kicks.
Grow up.
As for this being a slight embarrassment, it was the first story (make that the first two stories) on three last night, for about 12 minutes.
People might be ‘sick of Clark and Cullen’ but the 600,000 people who joined kiwibank because it’s a Kiwi-owned bank might be prepared to overlook that.
TV1 also ran this story at midday and in the evening.
It was also on three on Sunday, and one and three on Monday night. It’s been in every newspaper, and mentioned on front pages.
There are about five aspects to it:
1 – trustwortiness. Saying something and meaning another. While technically not out of line with their policy, it’s pretty damn clear what National wants to do, and it’s easy to imagine them taking steps to make it happen, trying to slip around a promise.
2 – leadership. Even Garner was promoting the Key vs English aspect of it and saying they clearly have different views.
3 – kiwibank. Lots of people like it, including Consumer, which pointed out that they have forced the foreign banks to keep their branches open, have kept mortgage rates down and fees low.
4 – Key. If English thinks he doesn’t understand WfF, how can that be a good look., Unlike someone’s hypothetical CEO not being able to develop a marketing policy, WfF is a very big game in town. If Key can’t handle that, maybe he is just ‘that nice Mr Key’ and nothing else
5 – voters. National clearly doesn’t think much of ‘the punters’ and that will rile a lot of people. Nothing worse than a senior politician seeming to hold people in contempt.
Pretending that this is small fry isn’t going to wash, righties.
You are so pathetic, Clinton. Get a life.
Statement On Secret Recording
Press Release by New Zealand National Party at 10:14 am, 05 Aug 2008
“Statements of mine secretly recorded at a social function last Friday and published over the weekend have caused confusion and concern about National’s policy on Kiwibank and Working for Families,” says National Party Finance spokesman Bill English.
“I did not choose my words well.
“We have worked for several years to find a better way of allowing families to keep their own income.
“We opted to retain the existing structure because we were not willing to create uncertainty for families under pressure. If we are elected we will work to improve the system for families without reducing entitlements.
“With respect to Kiwibank, I shouldn’t have made the comments I made. National has had no discussions about Kiwibank and has no plans to sell it.
“Comments I made regarding the complexity of WFF have been construed as criticism of John Key. That is wrong. My repeated responses to this question yesterday reflected my determination not to widen the debate – not an attempt to criticise John Key.
“I should have made it clear that I meant no such criticism and I’m making that clear today.”
ENDS
Ooooh, big scandal, Clinton! You’ve really hit the nail on the head on this one. All you do is whinge.
Blar, why the explosion at RedLogix? It was a fairly simple mistake. Can you please try and restrain yourself a bit, you’re like a three year old who has learnt their first swear word and are saying it as much as possible for the reaction.
Tell you what. My three year old cousin grew out of it after only a couple of weeks. You’ve been at it for about a month now, so she’s already got the drop on you, and I presume you’re not three. Try and prove to us that you’re not within, say, 10 years of her age, which is how it looks thus far.
Matthew
English was referring to the PAST. He said “Don didn’t understand it, and neither DID John” He is referring to the past. If he did “key doesn’t understand” fair enough, but thats not what he said. They tried to develop an alternative in the PAST, but couldn’t. Thats all he said….
Its not like Key is backing a corrupt foreign minister or anything serious….
Here’s the Dom-Post (Stuff) reporting of that press release (see Hoolian’s comment above):
National Party deputy Bill English has been forced into an embarrassing public apology over “loose talk” recorded secretly during a cocktail function.
With National Party leader John Key at his side, Mr English read out a statement to journalists this morning acknowledging that his statements had caused “confusion and concern” about National’s intentions on KiwiBank and Working for Families.
Hardly a non-issue, when the leader and deputy leader have to front up to the press together, to try and kill the story.
Explaining. Is. Losing.
Blar,
Oh yes… Helensville, not Henderson. Silly me.
And I appreciated the rest of your substantive rebuttal too.
Hoolian. thanks, I’ve seen the light. I know you have the best interests of myself and the Left at heart. So, I’m off to be a sharetrader.
The English tape has exploded into a massive scandal.
Probably the single most stupid comment I’ve seen this week. What a beatup.
Wow isnt it sad when all the lefties have to go on is this little bit of media spin that didnt show the full transcript in the first place.
I guess its no different than Helen on TV looking NZ in the eye saying I dont want to ban smacking because the NZ public dont want that. Yea right !!
Isn’t it refreshing in Bill English to see a man who is big enough to make an apology. We haven’t seen that in this arrogant Labour Government in 8 years. All their cockups and problems but not big enough to apologise. Shows a different standard maybe even a democracy rather than a dictatorship.
Did you call for Goff to resign when he said he has no plans to challenge the leadership ‘at present’?
sdm, it’s not like Key’s not backing working with the same… As has been said, no one comes out of that looking too well, if there’s substance toi the allegations (although I note only the frothy types call it corrupt, and even then they should think about it carefully – if Winston was corrupt,
As for the semantics and hair-splitting, English said (no fewer than four times) that it’s very complicated and refused to be drawn into whether Key does understand WfF. Hardly a ringing endoresement there!
Hoolian, given that all you do is…whinge, well, I don’t really need to point out the obvious do I?
he’s starting to look like a half skinned iguana… iggey?
“A massive scandal” is hyperbole.
But this *is* a serious problem. How it is described on a partisan blog is hardly significant. How it is seen by the voting public is what matters. And it’s not good.
@ Monkey-Boy: the difference is, does the issue resonate with voters?
The public already know that a) Goff wants to be leader and b) he won’t be before the election. Everybody knows both of those things, and so the story has no “oomph”.
Key and English doing a public kiss and make-up is a much bigger deal. When did they – or Clark and Cullen – last have to do that?
Ever?
Pilott, stop being so sanctimonious – calling someone a fuckwit is not an explosion.
RedLogix, you can’t demand substantive rebuttal when you say stuff like:
“a new Leader whose sudden nomination for the safe seat of Henderson (sic) remains an open and interesting question”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/feature/story.cfm?c_id=1502247&objectid=10523287&pnum=0 This was canvassed here and has been also canvassed extensively in the past. Your comments about the Dianne Foreman thing are similarly weird. Given that the whole thing was revealed by the Associate Minister for Panty Sniffing Trevor Mallard in the House, can you please explain how Brash ‘lost his job’ ‘covering it up’?
Billy
Yeah its getting a problem people cross the street if they see me coming
The problem is though is, when I am proved correct that will equally piss people off
I am destined to be alone and unloved
[Tane: Blar, a quick search pulled up this - http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=1743. Apology welcome.]
Tane, I forgot someone tried to gloss over the whole thing. In fact, that post reads a lot like this one:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/08/the_full_english_quote.html
So you’re wrong again Blar. That’s okay, I’ve noticed more and more righties coming on here solely to smear and misdirect. When you’ve lost the social and now the economic arguments what else is there to do?
“When you’ve lost the social and now the economic arguments what else is there to do?”
You’re a hoot Tane. Precisely how many of the ‘neoliberal’ reforms have Labour rolled back? It looks like the right has already won on free trade, tax cuts, monetary policy, balanced budgets and the use of PPPs.
Blar, Labour have a strong streak of neoliberalism and I think it’s bollocks. That’s why I don’t vote for them.
My comment was referring specifically to the number of less intelligent right-wing commenters on this site who have resorted to smear and misrepresentation because they can’t win the substantive arguments.
OK guys so I’m willing to go with the idea that this is probably not the most massive scandal of the century. SP is a bit of a whippersnapper after all, and the odd spot of hyperbole can be expected in the young from time to time.
On the other hand, whenever Bill English says anything from now on in are we allowed to ask ourselves if this is actual National Party policy, or just his opinion? Because Bill is a big boy now. He stands to be our next Minister of Finance. On Saturday night he clearly expresses the idea in private that he would sell KiwiBank if he could; on Tuesday he’s making press releases saying that he would not.
Not a good look.
Blar,
The problem with Brash was not the affair itself. It was WHO it was with, and the fact that the political implications of it could not be covered up indefinitely.
As for the Helensville scrap. The open question is still WHY. There are plenty of impressive people about, very few get handed a safe seat because head office suddenly takes a liking to them.
Like I say, there are three grounds on which to judge a politican and a party:
policy
competence
trust
National has failed on all three in this debacle.
Jeez, these guys can’t help themselves. They’re trying to get out of the hole but they just keep digging:
From that commie rag, NBR:
Mr Key said he did not feel the comments had undermined his leadership and his deputy, who retained his confidence, had not been forced by him to make today’s statement.
He said Mr English’s comments on his understanding of Labour’s families package had some merit in relation to his 2005 position.
“I was advocating as the finance spokesman a much more radical overhaul of Working For Families.
“For the last two years Bill and I have working very closely on that issue and what we’ve come to recognise is that it is a lot more difficult to change and I think he had a valid point.”
Great way to reassure families, John! You wanted a “radical overhaul”, but unfortunately it’s just … difficult.
(But easier once you’re in government?)
This is not a scandal. It is a beat up led by left wing 21 year old bloggers
Well how cool is that. Now Steve and other Standard authors are leading, hmm let’s see, TV1, TV3, Radio NZ, The Herald, The Dom Post, ZB Radio, and all the rest!
Use your ultimate power over the media wisely Steve, lead them towards the light…
I think it is refreshing that Bill English has apologised for his loose comments. He didn’t blame the media. He acknowledged that what he said caused confusion, and apologised for it. He is being held to account by John Key.
It is a pity that Helen Clark, who used to be so good at holding her ministers to account, has lost the art of being accountable, and making her ministers accountable. Now she allows that farce of a foreign minister to continue throwing mud at everybody, rather than apologise for deliberately misleading people and acting like a hypocrite. I understand that Labour’s polling company is polling people to see what the prime minister should do with him, so it isn’t a beat-up.
Red
Kiwibank is an interesting issue – the only person who called this right and without whom there would be no Kiwibank was Jim Anderton, from memory everyone else was lukewarm to disinterested to anti.
Personally I can’t see why you would sell Kiwibank if it’s profitable, the public like it and it acts as a competitor to the larger banks in terms of keeping them sharp with their rates.
While I don’t think governments should generally be in the business of running retail banks in this case it appears to be performing well or at the very least OK and one would think there’s more important things for National to be looking at.
Blar: In case you hadn’t realised…
When Tane says
That is me. A reluctant socialist. It is the company that you have to keep on the right that makes me go left.
The right is incoherent on anything beyond winning the next election. The combinations between the romantics, elitists, and just plain greedy are terrible. That doesn’t make for good policy decisions now for what needs to be done for 20 years out.
The left at least does think ahead, and somewhat more coherently. They usually compromise with each other more readily as well – makes for better governments.
He acknowledged that what he said caused confusion
Ya know what? I don’t feel confused at all. I found Bill’s comments to be perfectly blindingly clear. Nats will say whatever it takes to get elected, then do whatever they please after that. What could be clearer?
Nice try Tim. So English is great for apologising for comments he clearly and enequivocally made, but Clark is wrong for not apologising for Winston Peters’ various indiscretions. That’s really going to wash as a useful equivalent situation!
Blar, it’s not being sanctimonious. Say you’re at a reataurant and something isn’t right do you ask for it to be corrected or mouth off abuse at the waiter? RedLogix isn’t a ‘fuckwit’ because he mixed up Helensville and Henderson. That’s a pretty low bar you’ve set for being up for some pointless abuse. I know it’s in your interest to drag this site down, and it’s not sanctmonious to counteract that.
So the challenge is still out there, sunshine – you’ve already taken two weeks longer than my three year-old cousin – how long will it take you to grow up a little?
Interesting this concept of “labour-plus”.
A cynical playing of the plebes as punters who are driven by their need for a bit more money from the Nats.
Here are these rich parasites who live off the hard work of the punters patronising them for not having enough money to live on.
What a joke, condemning WFF and then having to admit that if you tampered with it yourd be condemned by families of 4 saying give our money back.
As a punter I’d say screw you English. I don’t like being called a welfare bludger for having WFF top up my wages. I’d tell you cynical anti-worker bludgers on the public tit that I only need a top up because my fucking boss will not pay me a living wage! I’m working class not under class arsehole!
As a punter I’d say screw you English. You want Kiwi Bank for your Aussie banking mates? No way. I’m getting out of BNZ, ANZ who screw homeowners and speculate in subprime. Then I’d nationalise you just like Hugo Chavez.
And I’m only getting started.