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	<title>Comments on: National disses minimum wage</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/</link>
	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 08:22:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: Wage gap decreasing thanks to pro-worker policies</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-92241</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: Wage gap decreasing thanks to pro-worker policies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-92241</guid>
		<description>[...] we know that in the 1990s National weakened the unions, ran a high unemployment policy, and refused to raise the minimum wage (expect one time with NZF forced them to). We know that real wages fell for many workers and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we know that in the 1990s National weakened the unions, ran a high unemployment policy, and refused to raise the minimum wage (expect one time with NZF forced them to). We know that real wages fell for many workers and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: Questioning politicians</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-89413</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: Questioning politicians</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:55:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-89413</guid>
		<description>[...] in poor communities leading to stagnation, higher unemployment, and higher crime - just as it did in the 1990s. It puts Hayes in line with comments from National labour spokesperson Kate Wilkinson but seems to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] in poor communities leading to stagnation, higher unemployment, and higher crime &#8211; just as it did in the 1990s. It puts Hayes in line with comments from National labour spokesperson Kate Wilkinson but seems to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: The Standard Week: 12-19 September</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-89000</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: The Standard Week: 12-19 September</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-89000</guid>
		<description>[...] policy, their record of opposing every extension to workers&#8217; rights and their history of letting the minimum wage be eaten by inflation show a clear and consistent body of belief opposed to workers&#8217; rights&#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] policy, their record of opposing every extension to workers&#8217; rights and their history of letting the minimum wage be eaten by inflation show a clear and consistent body of belief opposed to workers&#8217; rights&#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: Key on scrapping four weeks annual leave</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-88666</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: Key on scrapping four weeks annual leave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-88666</guid>
		<description>[...] employment policy, their record of opposing every extension to workers&#039; rights and their history of letting the minimum wage be eaten by inflation show a clear and consistent body of belief opposed to workers&#039; rights and in favour of privileging [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] employment policy, their record of opposing every extension to workers&#8217; rights and their history of letting the minimum wage be eaten by inflation show a clear and consistent body of belief opposed to workers&#8217; rights and in favour of privileging [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: Lucky Aussies, they kept their work rights</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-76924</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: Lucky Aussies, they kept their work rights</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 02:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-76924</guid>
		<description>[...] we&#8217;ve had on the impact of National and the Left on wages. To recap: we&#8217;ve shown that National let the minimum wage stagnate while inflation ate its buying power, the Labour-led Governments have increased it, we&#8217;ve [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] we&#8217;ve had on the impact of National and the Left on wages. To recap: we&#8217;ve shown that National let the minimum wage stagnate while inflation ate its buying power, the Labour-led Governments have increased it, we&#8217;ve [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Standard 2.01: Larger slice of the cake for workers under Labour</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-76638</link>
		<dc:creator>The Standard 2.01: Larger slice of the cake for workers under Labour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 04:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-76638</guid>
		<description>[...] etc. National&#8217;s policies are the opposite - they don&#8217;t raise the minimum wage meaning inflation makes it worth less and their policies weaken the power of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] etc. National&#8217;s policies are the opposite &#8211; they don&#8217;t raise the minimum wage meaning inflation makes it worth less and their policies weaken the power of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Kremlinology: National on work rights at The Standard 2.01</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-44411</link>
		<dc:creator>Kremlinology: National on work rights at The Standard 2.01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 01:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-44411</guid>
		<description>[...] wage up 70% in eight [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] wage up 70% in eight [...]</p>
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		<title>By: National forced to support meal breaks at thestandard.org.nz</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-27687</link>
		<dc:creator>National forced to support meal breaks at thestandard.org.nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 22:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-27687</guid>
		<description>[...] National would be as anti-worker as ever: they would let the minimum wage erode like they&#039;ve always done, they would work to see that wages drop, and New Zealanders would see no more improvements in their [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] National would be as anti-worker as ever: they would let the minimum wage erode like they&#8217;ve always done, they would work to see that wages drop, and New Zealanders would see no more improvements in their [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tax cuts = no rise in the minimum wage? at thestandard.org.nz</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-22813</link>
		<dc:creator>Tax cuts = no rise in the minimum wage? at thestandard.org.nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Mar 2008 02:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-22813</guid>
		<description>[...] to the minimum wage will not be a priority under National has already been raised in a previous post.  In December last year National Party labour and industrial relations spokeswoman Kate Wilkinson [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to the minimum wage will not be a priority under National has already been raised in a previous post.  In December last year National Party labour and industrial relations spokeswoman Kate Wilkinson [...]</p>
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		<title>By: How would Key make wages drop? at thestandard.org.nz</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-20720</link>
		<dc:creator>How would Key make wages drop? at thestandard.org.nz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-20720</guid>
		<description>[...] Hold the minimum wage steady, that will not only make the incomes of those earning the minimum wage decrease after inflation but will also help hold down the incomes of those on wages near the minimum wage; - Hold down [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Hold the minimum wage steady, that will not only make the incomes of those earning the minimum wage decrease after inflation but will also help hold down the incomes of those on wages near the minimum wage; &#8211; Hold down [...]</p>
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		<title>By: AncientGeek</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-11710</link>
		<dc:creator>AncientGeek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 02:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-11710</guid>
		<description>Yeah - I figured that might be the case. So I made mine as didactic. 

Actually here is a classic example from the Economist of what I call slave labour tactics... &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10329261&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Karoshi - death by overwork&lt;/a&gt;.

There is nothing quite like a 3G and a laptop during a boring car trip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah &#8211; I figured that might be the case. So I made mine as didactic. </p>
<p>Actually here is a classic example from the Economist of what I call slave labour tactics&#8230; <a href='http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10329261' rel="nofollow">Karoshi &#8211; death by overwork</a>.</p>
<p>There is nothing quite like a 3G and a laptop during a boring car trip.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimble</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-11708</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-11708</guid>
		<description>&quot;K- You have an interesting set of delusions about the effectiveness of market economics.&quot;

No, you just assume I do. Unless you are anti-market-everything on this site, people will think that you put all you faith in the &quot;holy market&quot; and are some sort of free-market acolyte.

Note, I haven&#039;t said the minimum wage is an inherently bad thing. Not once.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;K- You have an interesting set of delusions about the effectiveness of market economics.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, you just assume I do. Unless you are anti-market-everything on this site, people will think that you put all you faith in the &#8220;holy market&#8221; and are some sort of free-market acolyte.</p>
<p>Note, I haven&#8217;t said the minimum wage is an inherently bad thing. Not once.</p>
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		<title>By: AncientGeek</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-11706</link>
		<dc:creator>AncientGeek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 00:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-11706</guid>
		<description>There is also a serious reason for raising minimum wage rates. It is an effective way of performing natural selection on rat shit employers.

There are always a certain number of employers at the bottom end who for one reason or another are unable to improve the productivity of their organisation. They fall victim to what I refer to as &lt;b&gt;slave-holder economics&lt;/b&gt;. Rather than improving the efficiency of their organisation using capital expenditure or improved systems, they simply use more employees while trying to drive wage rates down.

K- If you dig back into economic history you&#039;ll find a lot of economic theory about this economic system, both on slave labour and various forms of indentured service (effectively the same). Adam Smith, for instance, wrote some interesting material on it. There is a lot of evidence that shows when this type of economic system gets entrenched, it eventually spirals down as close to zero wages as the legal system will allow.

Of course it isn&#039;t good for the society harboring a slave culture on many levels. The biggest one is the debilitating effect of poverty on the poll of talent and skills in later generations. But even in the short term it prevents people with potential skills being used in more productive enterprises because of constraining techniques by slaveholder employers. 

Slave holder employers use a number of interesting devices to hold their workers - typically debt mechanisms. Thats why there is quite a lot of law in every modern economies about valid uses of debt. It was how those societies crawled out of slave holder systems.

Of course, any competent employer doesn&#039;t get affected by setting of minimum wages (as pointed out in some of the replies above) - they&#039;re already paying more. The employers who bleat about minimum wage rates are exactly the employers you&#039;d expect - slaveholders who are too damn lazy to work out more efficient ways of running their businesses. The government setting minimum wages is simply correcting a known historical economic trap to drive out bad or criminal employers.

K- You have an interesting set of delusions about the effectiveness of market economics. I&#039;d suggest you look closer at the history of economic systems. In particular look at the early 20th century history of the Ford  Motor Company - the start of &#039;modern&#039; industrial systems. It was as much about how to drive wage rates up so people could afford to buy the gadgets that ford was selling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is also a serious reason for raising minimum wage rates. It is an effective way of performing natural selection on rat shit employers.</p>
<p>There are always a certain number of employers at the bottom end who for one reason or another are unable to improve the productivity of their organisation. They fall victim to what I refer to as <b>slave-holder economics</b>. Rather than improving the efficiency of their organisation using capital expenditure or improved systems, they simply use more employees while trying to drive wage rates down.</p>
<p>K- If you dig back into economic history you&#8217;ll find a lot of economic theory about this economic system, both on slave labour and various forms of indentured service (effectively the same). Adam Smith, for instance, wrote some interesting material on it. There is a lot of evidence that shows when this type of economic system gets entrenched, it eventually spirals down as close to zero wages as the legal system will allow.</p>
<p>Of course it isn&#8217;t good for the society harboring a slave culture on many levels. The biggest one is the debilitating effect of poverty on the poll of talent and skills in later generations. But even in the short term it prevents people with potential skills being used in more productive enterprises because of constraining techniques by slaveholder employers. </p>
<p>Slave holder employers use a number of interesting devices to hold their workers &#8211; typically debt mechanisms. Thats why there is quite a lot of law in every modern economies about valid uses of debt. It was how those societies crawled out of slave holder systems.</p>
<p>Of course, any competent employer doesn&#8217;t get affected by setting of minimum wages (as pointed out in some of the replies above) &#8211; they&#8217;re already paying more. The employers who bleat about minimum wage rates are exactly the employers you&#8217;d expect &#8211; slaveholders who are too damn lazy to work out more efficient ways of running their businesses. The government setting minimum wages is simply correcting a known historical economic trap to drive out bad or criminal employers.</p>
<p>K- You have an interesting set of delusions about the effectiveness of market economics. I&#8217;d suggest you look closer at the history of economic systems. In particular look at the early 20th century history of the Ford  Motor Company &#8211; the start of &#8216;modern&#8217; industrial systems. It was as much about how to drive wage rates up so people could afford to buy the gadgets that ford was selling.</p>
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		<title>By: Kimble</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-11635</link>
		<dc:creator>Kimble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 02:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-11635</guid>
		<description>So wage rates go up before minimum wage rises? That would make sense if you view things from a political stand point.

The government can get the good publicity of increasing the minimum wage, which will satisfy their lap-dogs. But the actual impact will end up being negligible, so they dont actually have to worry about the negative impacts.

It&#039;s a political free-roll.

Kind of like signing up to the Kyoto Protocol but never having any intention of meeting its targets. Of course, it would backfire if the figures which showed that the cost in carbon credits could be completely offset turn out to be wrong. Ooops.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So wage rates go up before minimum wage rises? That would make sense if you view things from a political stand point.</p>
<p>The government can get the good publicity of increasing the minimum wage, which will satisfy their lap-dogs. But the actual impact will end up being negligible, so they dont actually have to worry about the negative impacts.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a political free-roll.</p>
<p>Kind of like signing up to the Kyoto Protocol but never having any intention of meeting its targets. Of course, it would backfire if the figures which showed that the cost in carbon credits could be completely offset turn out to be wrong. Ooops.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/national-disses-minimum-wage/comment-page-4/#comment-11631</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 01:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=906#comment-11631</guid>
		<description>I suspect that if you look at NZ&#039;s measures of salary and wage growth (Statistics New Zealand&#039;s &quot;Labour Cost Index&quot;) you&#039;ll find that increases in the wage rates of occupations more likely to be at or near the minimum wage (service and sales workers, plant/machinery operators, elementary occupations, etc) actually PREDATE the comparable rise in minimum wage. 

The logical conclusion, therefore, has to be that minimum wage increases are perfectly logical and yet, paradoxically, totally unncessary

Captcha: &quot;The undisputed&quot;
Bow down before me, ye of little faith in numbers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect that if you look at NZ&#8217;s measures of salary and wage growth (Statistics New Zealand&#8217;s &#8220;Labour Cost Index&#8221;) you&#8217;ll find that increases in the wage rates of occupations more likely to be at or near the minimum wage (service and sales workers, plant/machinery operators, elementary occupations, etc) actually PREDATE the comparable rise in minimum wage. </p>
<p>The logical conclusion, therefore, has to be that minimum wage increases are perfectly logical and yet, paradoxically, totally unncessary</p>
<p>Captcha: &#8220;The undisputed&#8221;<br />
Bow down before me, ye of little faith in numbers!</p>
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