Written By: - Date published: 12:25 pm, October 1st, 2008 - 68 comments
Categories: national, tax -
Tags: bill english, lies
National just can’t stop lying. We’ve covered National’s lies on wages and migration in the past and our last two posts have debunked National’s lies on crime, the economy, compliance costs, corruption, press freedom and, well, just about everything.
Now they’ve resorted to repeating David Farrar’s discredited lies by deliberately misquoting Helen Clark on tax. Here’s what David’s mate Bill English claims Helen Clark said about tax:
In 2000 Helen Clark was saying: ‘tax cuts are the promises of a visionless and bankrupt people’.
“It’s hard to believe this is the same Helen Clark who has welcomed tax cuts today.”
The actual quote, as we pointed out almost a year ago, was:
‘Tax cuts are a path to inequality and underdevelopment in today’s circumstances. They are the promises of vision-less and intellectually bankrupt people’
The circumstances Helen Clark was talking about were the year 2000, a time when the country was reeling from nine years of right-wing policies that had battered the poor, slashed wages and brought our public service to its knees.
Tax cuts in those circumstances would certainly have been a path to inequality and underdevelopment, and while I’d personally rather see the money spent on social services, the circumstances in 2008 are very different.
As my man a_y_b said at the time, to misquote Clark so deliberately – by removing the three crucial qualifying words – is an absolute disgrace. And it’s a perfect example of the kind of dishonesty National is now engaging in on a daily basis as we head towards the campaign.
Seriously, if you can’t win without lying what does that say about your policies?
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Felix, it is a lie when the opinion is different from the statement. Do you seriously believe her opinion was that the “right” on the PC were tainted and by implication labour and NZF not tainted? I don’t. Labour and NZF PC members were the tainted ones (and she tainted it herself by commenting on it, contrary to her earlier claim about the nats comenting on it). Lie on top of lie. It is why she is drifting down down down. Sad. Such a waste (sort of).
vto its daytime and you are whistling to keep your spirits up. I f everybody lied like like national then it would be impossible to conduct any business whatsoever because nobody would be able to tell what was false and what was true but after parsing natoinals proclamations then anything that is the opposite must be true.
So Randal when Key said Helen Clark was extremely hardworking and that Michael Cullen would be remembered for the Cullen fund/Kiwisaver the opposite must be true ……. ok then
hs..hold your breath and spin round till you turn blue in the face and fall on the floor…ok?
Randal,
It was a good thing I read Steve’s advise on not having something liquid in my mouth because I would have had to clean my keyboard for sure. LOL.
he knows what he is talking about…
Birds of a feather flock together….. let’s just hope they don’t procreate.
HS,
That’s true, you must be lonely without d4j and other banned trolls. Funny how all of you are angry males. Good thing really.
No procreating.
Never mind one of these days you’ll probably say something stupid again and we’ll have another blissful week of intelligent discourse without you interspersing it with inane baiting remarks.
Ha ha outstanding yet more of the same old National is bad Labour is good argument and about as valid as the opposite view taken on other blogs.
Yeah righto HS – when you find me an example from Clark that is as blatant, self serving, obvious and contemptuous as Key’s lie (quoted above), you just let me know please.
correct tags (wherefore art thou edit):
Ha ha outstanding yet more of the same old National is bad Labour is good argument and about as valid as the opposite view taken on other blogs.
Yeah righto HS – when you find me an example from Clark that is as blatant, self serving, obvious and contemptuous as Key’s lie (quoted above), you just let me know please.
r0b
1. No I think it would be against human nature.
2. They’re both honourable gentleman.
3. Well no-one asked me.
Eve
Angry males – No I’m not angry are you ?
Intelligent discourse and yourself don’t tend to inhabit the same space such is the case for Randal if you weren’t so rabidly anti Key you would have been evicted from this blog some time ago.
HS
1. Pathetic example.
2. Pathetic example.
3. Pathetic example.
Let’s compare with an actual lie:
r0b
1. you’re in denial
2. you’re in denial
3. you’re in denial
Let’s compare the actual lie……. why bother ?
Show me a politician I’ll show you an “unmitigated falsifier of veracity”
edit I exclude the smaller parties (not NZ First) from that barb – many of their members have shown themselves to be quite honourable.
vto
I’m seriously having trouble following your train of thought today and I usually find you very lucid. I think I’ll get drunk.
hs
whether you intend it or not, you do come across as a bit angry and sexist when you communicate with ladies. You seem to be showing your true colours a bit more lately in many ways though. Which is a good thing IMO. No point holding it all in.
That is probably because there is a real disjunction in the expectations of the public. They want increased social services like health, while also having tax cuts, when the population is aging.
On the campaign trails politicians say what they’d like to do. In power they have to look at the costs of their promises. Of course the minor parties come off well – they never have to look at the costs.
Labour has managed to either achieve or get considerable progress on their promises in the last 9 years. That is because they under-promise and try to over-deliver.
National these days just seems to over-promise in their policies by never having anything clear in their A4′s. They also never bother to think about how to pay for it. It appears to be too hard for them. In fact you’d almost say that their ‘policy’ is to get the treasury benches and then start making policy. Same as in 1990
Felix
Tis the problem with email and blogs – we all tend to place a persona and voice behind the persons text we read.
I read your comments with a voice over of James Brown in my head…. no offence intended if you’re not a fan.
[lprent: being remiss in my duties - forgot to remove you from moderation - now done.]
travellerev, time to get over your prejudices re white males (only middle class ones too apparently). You just look silly.
felix, sometimes I just fire things down quickly without too much checking hence being lucid-lite I guess.
There were really only two points I was trying to make, both very similar. First is this insane idea that the nats lie and labour doesn’t. Second is this malleable morality which gets shaped to both fit into labours less than honourable actions from time to time and to exaggerate the nats less than honourable actions from ttime to time.
HS,
That’s hilarious coming from you. Denial. The man going “lalala, I can’t hear you” with his fingers in his ears and eyes closed.
Buildings reinforced to withstand nuclear blasts do not collapse into their own footprint into dust in 6.5 sec. after only a couple of office fires.
This is what US fire fighters have to say about it and this what <a href=’http://www.v911t.org/SergeantLauroChavez.phpveterans have to say about it and this is what <a href=’http://www.ae911truth.org/Architects and Engineers have to say about it. You see I’m in good company whereas you have to do with the likes of d4j and vto.
vto,
I said angry man. And yes, you both sound angry and condescending and patronising.
see. just silly.
perhaps you could point out something I have said that “sounds angry and condescending and patronising”.
Let’s compare the actual lie . why bother ?
HS – Because a person who lies with such glib facility is not fit to be PM. It is you who is in denial old chap.
vto,
see. just silly.
Condescending and patronising
get fucked
angry
travellerev, something obviously has affected you in the past to turn you into such a racist, sexist, angry and quite frankly brainless (or should that be headless) chook.
unless you find some things that I have said that “sound angry and condescending and patronising” (other than to you, which have only EVER been in retaliation) then we need never speak again.
There you go – I’m sure you will find something in there to get your bigoted fangs into (as I’m sure there will be no evidence to back up assertions).
F*&k,
This is what US fire fighters have to say about it and this what veterans have to say about it and this is what Architects and Engineers have to say about it. You see I’m in good company whereas you have to do with the likes of d4j and vto.
Eve
I’ve heard you a number of times but I’ve now just given up listening. If I wanted to continue debating the events of Sept 11 I’d do it on your blog.
r0b
If that’s the case what choices are left if Helen and John are both out of the mix ?
If that’s the case what choices are left if Helen and John are both out of the mix ?
You know my opinion on those two HS, but if you regard them as equivalent then vote Green. Fitzsimons has always struck me as a person of utmost integrity, and one of the few sane voices in parliament. And Norman is coming along nicely. Vote Green.
Hah good on you – I agree that they’re both good people… but we both know that I won’t be voting Green – have a good evening.
You too HS, g’night.
vto,
Misogynist, Condescending, angry and patronising.
All in one comment, amazing.
Hs
When will it get through to you, it’s not about you. You will always stick your fingers in your ears and go “lalala, I can’t hear you.”
But last month alone 13.009 hits on my blog alone prove that people out there are hungry for information. 46% kiwi, 30% US and the other hits from al over the world.
By the time the depression is going to hit, you’ll be going WTF just happened but maybe those people will be better prepared. Those are the ones I’m trying to reach.
For anyone interested: The bank I banked with for 36 years, as solid as, just collapsed and had to be saved by the Dutch government and a second one is on the verge off.
Toxic bonds and derivatives are destroying the entire western banking system.
This is not something that can be solved with a bailout. This is a systemic failure caused by greed and speculation of astronomic proportions.
Thanks to John Key and his Wall street scumbag mates we will be struggling for the next twenty years.
Am I rabidly against John Key? I don’t know him but seeing him caught lying about his gambling habit and knowing what is about to hit the US and knowing the Wall street is responsible for the collapse and knowing that John Key was managing director of debt (bonds and derivatives) for Merrill Lynch gives me a very nasty taste in my mouth and all the alarm bells ringing in the back of my head.
So travellerev, useless too then. Clearly cannot come up with anything to support your racism and sexism, just as previously surmised.
All you ever do is abuse people for being male or white or middle class. I have never once seen you provide any evidence to support whatever is meant by those “allegations”. And same again now.
vto,
Actually no, All I ever do is give people as much information as I can and comment on the thread. I only abuse people like you, HS and Lucas and only after you, HS and Lucas and let’s not forget Billy once again show your ignorance.
People here may not agree with me but it seems to me that most of us try to respect each others points of view and do so without ridiculing each other even if someone’s points of view seems outrageous to them.
Hey vto,
I found you another misogynist ignoramus friend. Meet Santi.
travellerev, I dont know how to put this any simpler, but I will try. Show me some examples of where I have been, in your own words;
condescending
patronising
angry
misogynist
ignorant
And, not things I have said to you which, again, have only EVER been in retaliation.
Some come on, your words are hollow – put up or shut up.
“I only abuse people like you, HS and Lucas and only after you, HS and Lucas and let’s not forget Billy once again show your ignorance.”
You also routinely abuse me as well, and usually after I’ve
1) Reviewed all of your sources
2) Pointed out the plethora of internal contradictions and outright garbage
3) Provided sound reasoning based on real science in rebuttal, which you have never once tried to refute and
4) Illustrated numerous underlying logical flaws (i.e. why try to blow up a tower when you could just pay an islamist extremist to fly a plane into it).
But I don’t want to get all patriarchal.
Just leave off the abuse Ev, you dish out WAY more than you get on this forum, and it just makes you look like a total infant. It’s embarassing to be around. At least when Tories do it I can take joy in shooting them down, but you’re from the same side! Kinda anyway.
I posted a link for you the other day re: a company in Hamilton who had been trying to commercialize hydrogen on demand for cars and had been forced to conceed that their testing had revealed it to be a hoax and they were advising everyone against investing any money in such things. Did you see it? (Please don’t answer by telling me how far you last drove on a tank of petrol).
Also – where on earth do you get that figure of 20 years from?? Can we just agree that you pulled it from thin air and really it’s almost impossible to predict?