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Have National’s asset sales officially cost more than they’ll earn?

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 pm, September 22nd, 2013 - 51 comments
Categories: accountability, assets, bill english, debt / deficit, economy, john key, national - Tags:

In a previous post at The Standard I did a wee bit of math and came to the conclusion that National has already made $5.26 billion worth of spending promises out of the Future Investment Fund, the not-actually-a-fund chunk of cash they plan to make from selling taxpayer-built infrastructure to their mates.

Things have developed.

First, there’s this post from James, noting that the sales process itself has already cost $124 million.  And this estimate from the Greens of the cost of the Government’s interest-free loans to Meridian investors.

And then there’s this acknowledgement from John Key that the original five-to-seven billion dollar estimate for the profits from the sales are pretty much shot to hell.

So now we’re left with:

  • Maybe $5 billion in income – only 2.1 billion of which has come in so far
  • $5.26 billion in promised spending
  • $124 million in process costs
  • $55 million in bribes to investors

Costs we’re still not including:

  • National’s promise to reduce our debt by $6 billion
  • Ongoing loss of profits to the Crown, as outlined in James’ post
  • The ongoing maintenance of all the projects they’re promising to fund – because shit needs to be staffed, maintained, cleaned and managed after you’ve built it or it’s a complete waste of time.

So at the most generous estimate?

We’re already in the hole for four hundred and thirty-nine million dollars.  Taking the promised spending and costs to date away from the actual funds received?

Three point three billion dollars in the red.

That’s the sound fiscal management of the National Party.

51 comments on “Have National’s asset sales officially cost more than they’ll earn?”

  1. infused 1

    heading != actual post. $5.26 billion in promised spending != asset sales costing more.

    5 kittens died because of this post.

    [QoT: You know, honestly I don’t understand the point you think you’re making, but you can get the fuck out of this post anyway.]

    • The point he’s making is straightforward, because the word “cost” has a plain English meaning that requires no training in economics to understand. That meaning doesn’t encompass promises the government has made about what spending it will carry out; it encompasses only money spent or lost on the sales, which according to your post amounts to $179 mil + lost future revenue. You may not like his point, but it’s a valid one.

      • QoT 1.1.1

        As I said below:

        Yes, but headlining this post “Have the promised applications of the proceeds of National’s asset sales theoretically overshot the projected profits?” might be accurate but hardly clear or interesting.

        If the worst thing anyone’s going to say about this post is that I sacrificed Pure Linguistic Accuracy for the sake of a snappy title, I’m not going to cry about it. But I am going to insist that we move the fuck on and stay on topic.

  2. blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2

    The lost revenue means that they were always going to cost more than they earn, just how long that equation takes to deliver it’s sorry little promise is the pending question.

    • QoT 2.1

      The post already noted that there’s the issue of lost revenue. The point I’m making is that promised spending from the proceeds of assets sales is already more than the (theoretical) proceeds of asset sales.

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2.1.1

        I did see that, I was emphasizing the point because I think it is important, seeing as there is this view around that Nats have a good grasp on fiscal management, which I think is utterly wrong and this is a prime example of it.

        I also like your point you made about the promises totaling more than the income.

        I thought, however in this post, that you were saying that the costs of making the sales are costing more than they are going bring in?

        • QoT 2.1.1.1

          Primarily, I’m saying they’re promising to spend more than they’re going to earn. I know it’s not the whole issue – because when you take into account everything else it’s a massive hole in the “household budget” of government – but I also think that a lot of people really just aren’t that economically literate, so saying “earn $2, spend $4″ illustrates the problem more clearly.

          (A conspiracy theorist could ponder whether people are kept economically uneducated precisely in order to allow the ruling powers free rein to do this kind of crap.)

          • Psycho Milt 2.1.1.1.1

            From what I remember, they promised to use the money to reduce debt as well as promising to spend it – I can’t wait to see how they’re going to manage that one. I know Key is meant to be one of those “smartest men in the room” who brought us the GFC, but even for one of them it would be a pretty good trick.

            • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 2.1.1.1.1.1

              @ Psycho Milt
              Lolz! :lol:

            • lprent 2.1.1.1.1.2

              They had already spent it several times over in 2012 before the sales ever had ever happened and all of it on things that were either new spending or were one-offs.

              Directly reducing debt? Hardly. From memory, MRP and one other sale were budgeted into the 2013 budget as revenue. The amount of debt rose by the amount you’d have expected if neither the Mighty River Power sale hadn’t happened, nor did the other one.

            • Chris 2.1.1.1.1.3

              They are reducing the total debt by spending it on projects that would otherwise have been debt funded. Just because the money is not directly going to pay down debt does not mean it is not reducing the total debt of the country.

              • Tangee

                Yes debt funded at a low rate and lose a high performing asset for good.

              • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill)

                +1 Tangee

                @ Chris

                “Just because the money is not directly going to pay down debt does not mean it is not reducing the total debt of the country.”

                I’d like to see how far that argument gets you with your bank manager in the event that you have a debt to them.

    • karol 2.2

      QoT – glad you didn’t understand it either. I was having an, is-it-infused-or-is-it-me? moment.

      • QoT 2.2.1

        I presume there’s some very clever, “the spending promises aren’t direct costs of the sales” point behind it all, but given infused tried to pull the same crap on my last post on the topic I figured a swift and decisive smackdown was called for.

        • Lanthanide 2.2.1.1

          I wouldn’t call that “very clever”, I’d call it basic logic.

          Promising to spend the proceeds of a sale has nothing to do with the cost of undertaking that sale.

          • QoT 2.2.1.1.1

            Yes, but headlining this post “Have the promised applications of the proceeds of National’s asset sales theoretically overshot the projected profits?” might be accurate but hardly clear or interesting.

            Our government is selling assets on the basis of promises to spend the money for the good of the country. By their own figures, they are at the very least lying about where the money to meet their promises will come from.

            I’m now quite done arguing a derailing point which was only raised because infused is a fucking troll who is not welcome to comment on my posts.

  3. dumrse 3

    Have National’s asset sales officially cost more than they’ll earn? The term “officially” refers to what? Is your humble opinion official ?

    [QoT: Given that my post relies on backed-up figures predominantly from government sources, I think anyone who isn’t a fucking troll can figure out what “official” means.]

    • dumrse 3.1

      I was looking for ” pretty much shot to hell” but, as I suspected, I cannot find it in the article you have linked to. The rest are probably overstated as well.

      [QoT: Original estimated profits: 5 to 7 billion. Headline of linked article: “Asset sales will struggle to net $5 billion, says Key”. And you’re done here.]

      [lprent: dumrse didn’t pick his name lightly. His ability to understand any numbers is limited by his inability to exceed his personal digital registers. Since he hasn’t discovered his feet yet, this means he is incapable of understanding numbers past 11. ]

  4. North 4

    No, D’arse @ 3. However your exceedingly humble brain made superficially attractive by talk of the “holiday home” in Hawaii IS official. Exceedingly humble !

    Forgive me but I’d probably half forgive His Crassness if he’d shamblingly engaged the continental kissing business so mad in Parnell. And in keeping with that fine buzz said – “villa” – in Hawaii.

    What I cannot forgive is the Earl of ShonKey sitting with the Queen and simperingly telling her – “You have a magnificent ‘property’ here Your Madge !

    What ? Fucking Balmoral a fucking ‘property’ ?

    OMG The Tower The Tower.

  5. GregJ 5

    That’s the sound fiscal management of the National Party.

    Of course nothing about National’s financial management is sound – it is pretty much a complete laissez-faire approach and eschews any active management at all.

    The Future Investment Fund was just the smokescreen to what was an ideological decision to facilitate the transfer of public assets into the private sector – I doubt anyone buying the shares were in any doubt about the real purpose of the Part Privatisations, most core National Voters weren’t either, those opposed certainly are aware and the only ones who believed in it are the soft centre voters who voted for National and then probably didn’t (or could afford) to buy shares anyway.

    • QoT 5.1

      I actually can’t get over the fact that the Future Investment Fund isn’t even a fund. And I’m the person getting snarked at for using the word “cost” inaccurately.

      • GregJ 5.1.1

        Heh – yeah “Fund” – election Pork Barrel more like!

      • Brett Dale 5.1.2

        Dont knock the future, everything will be free, maybe even Pepsi.

        [QoT: Brett, make a relevant comment which shows you’ve taken half a minute to google the basic facts or click the links in the article or go away.]

        • Brett Dale 5.1.2.1

          [QoT: The standard for posting here, generally, is “don’t piss off the moderators”. This is my post and I am going to moderate it harshly because I can’t be fucked with the usual bullshit. This includes you derailing things with your uninformed non-sequiturs.]

          • Murray Olsen 5.1.2.1.1

            I don’t want them to sell state assets to anyone. What sort of left winger does that make me?

            Heavy? Nah, a stupid lightweight argument. A country isn’t rich because it temporarily has some cash on hand. It has to keep running things, with the added weight of private profit, and would actually be poorer by any reasonable measure.

      • anne 5.1.3

        Why don’t you do an ‘economics for dummies’ course before undertaking posts like this one.

        [karol: this looks like a different “anne” from our long time commenter “Anne” – difference of a capital letter – is this going to cause confusion?

        PS: Also, you clearly look like a new commenter, and need to read the part of The Standard policy about abusing the post authors being a banning offence]

        • Anne 5.1.3.1

          This is not the regular Anne.

          She’s been around in the past – both here and on Red Alert. Not a good role model for the real Annes…

          • GregJ 5.1.3.1.1

            Heh – my mother is a(an?) Anne – I normally always listen to “Anne”s ;)

            – “anne”s however – not so much? :twisted:

            • Anne 5.1.3.1.1.1

              Thanks GregJ. :)

              I’ve only just seen your comment due to the search function going awol. Back to normal now.

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.3.2

          Why don’t you do an ‘economics for dummies’ course before undertaking posts like this one.

          You do realise that most “economics” courses are big fat vats of laced neoliberal kool-aid, right?

          Almost every pseudo-scientific mathematical model from neoliberal economics is a bunch of falsifiable mistake ridden junk.

          The usual neo-liberal assumptions of equilibrium, price demand curves, market efficiency, rationality, role of banks, role of debt etc. All dead wrong.

  6. tracey 6

    Mr key and the nats are very clear that the last election gave them a mandate on asset sales. That mandate is presumably based on their pre election statements from them about said asset sales. One of those statements was that they would pay down debt with the proceeds. Ergo the mandate is not to sell assets it is to sell assets AND pay down debt. Those who say these do not go together must logically agree that one without the other destroys the mandate.

    I also thought tge article wld suggest actual cost had exceeded proceeds but I soon realised what qot was actually saying.

    those who have focus on her semantics have ignored john keys and the nats
    which us far more crucial.

    well done qot and james and john keys on mealeg mouthed words

    • Wayne 6.1

      Tracey,

      If you can make investments using the proceeds of sales, you are reducing the requirement to borrow.

      Most of the investments (as pointed out on The Standard) are things that would likely have to done in any event. For instance part of the contribution for the Christchurch rebuild and CBD rail.

      In Labour’s case the money would have to be borrowed. After all, almost of you think National is being too strict with spending to get to a surplus.

      I appreciate that taxes will go up, lets say by $2 billion or so, but the spending promises will be as least as much. Or alternatively David Cunliffe’s actual promises will be less than his rhetoric would indicate.

      • QoT 6.1.1

        If you can make investments using the proceeds of sales, you are reducing the requirement to borrow.

        Only if you’re paying for things you were intending to pay for before the sale. And given the increased costs of borrowing created by the need to maintain all those lovely schools and hospitals which are going to be built, I don’t think even that argument works.

      • blue leopard (Get Lost GCSB Bill) 6.1.2

        Wayne,

        ‘Reducing the requirement’ to borrow is not the same thing as ‘paying down debt’.

      • lprent 6.1.3

        There has been nothing applied or even promised from asset sales towards the CBD rail loop that I’m aware of. In fact the government hasn’t even indicated where the money will come from. But certainly not the future ‘fund’.

        They are applying some of the asset sales to the christchurch rebuild. There have to be considerable questions about them needing to do that. It rather makes a mockery of the EQC’s insurance premiums that we’ve been paying all of this time. The shortfalls appear to be significiant.

    • QoT 6.2

      Thanks tracey – and that’s a really good point about what National’s mandate actually is.

  7. Ennui 7

    Q, do you really think that the representative for Merill Lynch and his Nact cronies give a flying f**k at being fiscally responsible?

    Get real, ask the question, “Who pays?” Answer is us the tax payer (directly plus more interest to the banksters).

    “Who gets what?” Answer is the rich because they will receive the asset at a cut price, and will then up our prices so they can take a rent on the dividend…..and they wont pay tax either.

    Do you think the buyers really care about “fiscal responsibility”? Its all about asset transfer (aka theft from you and me).

    • QoT 7.1

      Oh, I don’t think they give a crap at all. But that’s the line they use to market themselves as a governing party, so shooting it down is well worth the trouble.

      • Ennui 7.1.1

        Which is where we disagree. Semantics…”fiscal irresponsibility” is just more political weasel words to Joe and Jill Public…”theft” however is an easy tag, and as they say mud sticks. And stuck mud loses elections.

        • felix 7.1.1.1

          Both approaches are necessary.

        • Wayne 7.1.1.2

          “Theft” is too extreme a term. The average NZer does not think of either of two main parties in this kind of way. They may not agree with the parties on particular issues, but they do generally regard them as acceptable alternative govts (even if not their particular choice).

          This kind of language only appeals to partisans (and only some of them) and the two parties already have the support of their respective partisans.

          • QoT 7.1.1.2.1

            But “lies” is a very accurate term which the average NZer wouldn’t have any problem applying to this situation.

  8. tracey 8

    Wayne

    this govt has borrowed 50bn. It pays less than 4% on that.

    mrp yielded 11% last year and meridian 8%.

    Ideology on this is trumped by math on this one.

    if we had a labour green govt doing this phrases like funny money and looney economics would be raised. And rightly so.

    instead if defending the indefensible maybe nothing

  9. tracey 9

    Wayne

    when was appkling the funds from the asset sale to aucks rail loop mandated. Can you providexa link?

  10. big brother and the screw u co 10

    85 DOLLARS minute and rising HeLLO GREECE we are closer than than thought globally possible

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    From the epic On Smarm by Tom Scocca at Gawker: Snark is often conflated with cynicism, which is a troublesome misreading. Snark may speak in cynical terms about a cynical world, but it is not cynicism itself. It is a theory of… ...
    Boots TheoryBy Stephanie Rodgers
    14 hours ago
  • Birkenhead Transport orders triple-articulated double decker bus
    Birkenhead Transport announced today that it is planning replace its entire fleet with a single triple-articulated double decker bus. The bus is 57m long and over 4m tall. The Walfisch 57 double decker triple-bendy bus. Owner, managing director and part… ...
    14 hours ago
  • The X Factor NZ: That summer feeling
    Improvements have been made, true contenders are emerging and Dominic Bowden only grows in power.   X Factor NZ judges Shelton Woolwright, Natalie Bassingthwaighte, Stan Walker and Melanie Blatt. Photo: The X Factor NZ A good X… ...
    14 hours ago
  • MPs back animal testing ban
    From left, owner of Crumpet the Rabbit Greta-Mae McDowell, Green Party MP Mojo Mathers and #BeCrueltyFree campaigner Tara Jackson. MPs have unanimously supported a ban on animal testing in New Zealand for finished cosmetic products and their… ...
    15 hours ago
  • The other missing mode
    Here at TransportBlog, we often write about “missing modes“. Auckland is shamefully underprovided with alternatives to driving, and that’s the situation that led to us developing the Congestion Free Network. The CFN calls for investment in rail, bus and potentially… ...
    Transport BlogBy John Polkinghorne
    16 hours ago
  • Why are young people in Europe joining jihadist groups?
    by Kenan Malik First it was Shamima Begum, Amira Abase and Kadiza Sultana, three schoolgirls from Tower Hamlets who smuggled themselves to Syria during their half term holiday. Then it was ‘Jihadi John’, the IS executioner who was unmasked by… ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    23 hours ago
  • Sea Level Rise is Spiking Sharply
    Global sea level is rising because of warming from the industrial greenhouse gas emissions we humans keep pumping into the atmosphere. The expansion of seawater as it warms, and the addition of meltwater from disintegrating land-based ice, enforce a relentless rise… ...
    24 hours ago

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  • Many regions need by-election levels of support
    Northland is not the only region struggling under the National Government, but unfortunately places like Gisborne, Whanganui and Tasman do not have by-elections on the horizon, Labour’s Economic Development spokesperson David Clark says. “A desperate National Party has thrown money… ...
    8 hours ago
  • Real changes must come from CYF review
    A well-overdue revamp of Child, Youth and Family cannot be just another cost cutting exercise, Labour’s Children’s spokesperson Jacinda Ardern says. “Labour has been pushing for a review for some time. It was part of our policy at the election. ...
    8 hours ago
  • Latest Air NZ plan carries on regional snub
    Christchurch Labour Members of Parliament have secured a meeting with Air New Zealand boss Christopher Luxon following the airline’s decision to cut its Christchurch to Tokyo summer flights.  They are also calling on the Minister of Transport Simon Bridges to… ...
    1 day ago
  • Carmel Sepuloni back in Social Development role
    Andrew Little has reinstated Carmel Sepuloni as Labour’s Social Development spokesperson following the sentencing of her mother in the New Plymouth District Court today. “It has been a tough time for Carmel, but we both agreed it was appropriate she… ...
    1 day ago
  • Government taking Kiwis for April Fools
    Many Kiwis will be wondering if the joke is on them when a raft of Government changes come into effect tomorrow, Labour Leader Andrew Little says. “First is ACC and National’s unwillingness to end its rort of Kiwi businesses which… ...
    1 day ago
  • Time to show RMA housing affordability plans
    Labour is challenging the Government to reveal its plans to make housing more affordable through amending the Resource Management Act, Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford says. “Labour remains willing to consider the proposals on housing affordability on their merits and… ...
    1 day ago
  • John Key now admits no broad support for RMA changes
    John Key has now been forced to admit that he never had the broad political support to gut the Resource Management Act, says Labour’s Environment spokesperson Megan Woods. “Cornerstone legislation such as the RMA should never be changed without genuine… ...
    2 days ago
  • National’s changes leave student bodies in chaos
    The chaos created by National’s scrapping of compulsory student association membership may force the 86-year old Union of Students Association to fold, Labour’s Tertiary Education spokesperson David Cunliffe says. “National’s 2011 Voluntary Student Membership Act has left student associations with… ...
    2 days ago
  • Tragedy must be impetus for better training
    The Police Minister needs to explain why unsworn and inadequately trained custody officers were put in a situation of caring for a medically unwell prisoner on a busy Saturday night, Labour’s Police spokesperson Kelvin Davis says. Commenting on an IPCA… ...
    5 days ago
  • Government must be more transparent on investor state clauses
    The Government must be more transparent around the draft investor state dispute settlements in the TPPA, says David Parker, Labour’s Export Growth and Trade spokesperson. “Labour is pro trade, and is proud of the FTA we negotiated with China, which… ...
    6 days ago
  • Protect university staff and student voices
    The Green Party believes ensuring student and staff representation on university councils is important. National recently passed a law reducing the size of university governance councils while increasing the proportion of the members nominated by, guess who… Steven Joyce. The… ...
    GreensBy Gareth Hughes MP
    6 days ago
  • C’mon Nick what’s the truth on the RMA
     “Nick Smith has got to fess up and tell us what is happening to his much vaunted RMA reform, Labour’s Environment spokesperson Megan Woods says.  “With just a day and a half to go before the polls open in Northland,… ...
    6 days ago
  • SSC salaries sink National’s spending spin
    Massive pay rises at the State Services Commission prove National’s claims of clamping down on spending in the public sector are simply fantasy, Labour’s State Services spokesman Kris Faafoi says. “Salaries in this one department are almost $70,000 more than… ...
    6 days ago
  • We can fix Christchurch and keep our assets
    The Christchurch City Council is seeking public feedback on its proposed 10 year plan for Council revenue and spending. This is probably one of the most significant 10 year plans ever to be written by a local council because of… ...
    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    6 days ago
  • Epidemic of serious assaults in our prisons
    Labour wants stab proof vests and pepper spray for all corrections officers to keep them safe from the epidemic of serious prison assaults that are occurring around the country’s jails, says Labour’s Corrections Spokesperson Kelvin Davis.  “There have been five… ...
    6 days ago
  • Listen to the locals Hekia!
    Minister Hekia Parata needs to understand what consultation is, Port Hills MP Ruth Dyson says. “It means you have to listen to what people say in their submissions and then be able to demonstrate you have considered their views when… ...
    1 week ago
  • Thanking our caregivers
    Let’s celebrate and thank our caregivers. This week is caregivers’ week. It’s a chance to acknowledge the thousands of women, and occasional other person, who are caring for the elderly and disabled in our country. They hold people’s lives in… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    1 week ago
  • Mana Post shop the best outcome for community
    Labour MP for Mana Kris Faafoi has welcomed the move to place the services from the Mana Post shop to a local small business. “This is the best outcome for the community we could ask for. All the vital services… ...
    1 week ago
  • Roundup: UN finds it “probably” causes cancer
    At last the UN has spoken out against the widely-used weedkiller Roundup. The UN’s International Agency for Research on Cancer has identified glyphosate, the principle ingredient in Roundup, as a probable carcinogen. They also include as probable carcinogens the insecticides… ...
    GreensBy Steffan Browning MP
    1 week ago
  • World water day: eight rivers in one day
    Our photo journey started by the Waioweka (also known as Waioeka) River which flows from Te Urewera to Opotiki, and is surrounded by beautiful forest. The water looked great! Kopeopeo Canal It contrasted greatly with the Kopeopeo Canal near Whakatane,… ...
    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    1 week ago
  • We all benefit when education meets everyone’s needs
    As Dyslexia week comes to a close,  Dyslexia NZ have reminded us that around 10% of our citizens are dyslexic and are entitled to better support. One of their strongest arguments is that failure to provide identification and support for… ...
    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    1 week ago
  • Big change starts small
    Today marks Race Relations Day in New Zealand. Race Relations Day coincides with the International Day for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination.  The United Nations General Assembly chose this day as it marks the day in 1960 when 69 peaceful… ...
    GreensBy Denise Roche MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Israel, Palestine and the question of statehood
    The knife-edge election in Israel complicates the Middle East situation, even more than usual. The Prime Minister-elect, Binyamin Netanyahu, is moving to form a government. Netanyahu has indicated that, during his term, a Palestinian state would not be established. That… ...
    GreensBy Kennedy Graham MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Christchurch transport goes backwards
    The Green Party has a vision of a liveable, accessible Christchurch with a sense of identity and strong connected communities. Instead, 2013 census figures released by Statistics New Zealand reveal a fractured community, and tell a story of frustrated Christchurch commuters… ...
    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Super Fund should divest $140 million in high risk coal
    The Green Party is calling on the New Zealand Super Fund to divest their $140 million investment in coal companies that are vulnerable to becoming financially stranded according to a damning new report from Oxford University. The Smith School of… ...
    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Learn to count with Mark Osborne: 0 + 1 = ?
    The adage about the first casualty of war being truth is one that might often be applied to the political battle for hearts and minds, and of course votes. A rather unfortunate example of this has been arriving in the… ...
    GreensBy David Clendon MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Is it still a safety net when the holes are this big?
    Over the last few weeks I’ve been wondering how safe our income support system is for people, especially those with cognitive or learning disabilities. I’ve been trying to support a young man who was severely injured in a workplace accident… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Pasifika – protecting the Pacific needed now more than ever.
    Over the weekend thousands of Aucklanders flocked to celebrate our city’s diverse Pacific communities and cultures at the annual Pasifika festival and the Greens were there to join them. The Pasifika festival has been held every year for 23… ...
    GreensBy Denise Roche MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Sounds Stakeholders Seek a Sustainable Future
    It was heartening to see a large number of people who care about the Marlborough Sounds come together at the Marlborough Marine Futures’ forum in Picton on March 8. Fellow Green MP Steffan Browning, who lives in Marlborough, and I… ...
    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    3 weeks ago

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