NRT: A circus of self-mutilation

104 comments on “NRT: A circus of self-mutilation ”

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1. Sable 1

   22 July 2014 at 10:17 am

   Labour are not really a left leaning party anymore. Their biggest shortcoming is they are trying to be an every-man party and they are predictably failing as there have no clear message and as a result no clear consensus from voters as to why they should vote Labour. Except perhaps that they voted Labour in the past which is not necessarily a good reason to do so in the future.

   I would never once have voted for anyone else. I come from a working class background of people who helped found what became Labour in Blackball once upon a time. Now I have not idea who Labour is or what they stand for. They seem on the one hand to want to be a socialist party but on the other hand have neo liberal aspirations which are at odds.

   I think this shows when it comes time for an election. You have factionalism breaking out with core Labour politicians at odds with the “new breed” of business focused Labourites. The fact is this is a “Labour” party not a business party. Those who want neo liberalism to thrive should really leave and join National.

   Yet here we are. I personally believe Labour as a party are finished. The Greens are professional, have good policy and are forward thinking. This is why I defected. Well to be honest I walked away from Labour back in mid 80’s when Lange’s government in my opinion betrayed everything Labour stood and moved over to the Alliance. I feel little has changed since.

   Labour will loose this election and with it they will loose any remaining credibility. I suspect in years to come the Greens will take their place and they will become a minor presence on the NZ political landscape.
   • swordfish 1.1

     22 July 2014 at 10:33 am

     Good old Blackball !!!

     Despite rose-tinted mythology to the contrary, Labour didn’t do particularly well in most West Coast mining towns until after the Great Depression. But there were 3 or 4 mining strongholds where Labour (and before it, the SDP) did indeed do spectacularly well right from the start – and Blackball was pre-eminent amongst them. The Left were winning Blackball overwhelmingly from WWI on.

     (slightly off-topic, I know. But I simply could nae resist a little stroll down memory-lane. Always good to remember the Lefties that came before us).
     • DS 1.1.1

       23 July 2014 at 1:58 am

       Labour won Buller from 1919 onwards. The other electorate (Westland) was held by Richard Seddon’s son for the Liberals into the 1920s. King Dick ran a pub on the Coast, remember, and people remembered him fondly.
       • swordfish 1.1.1.1

         23 July 2014 at 7:11 am

         True, DS.

         Although, if I was being pedantic, I’d say one of Labour’s precursor parties (the SDP – and, specifically, Paddy Webb) actually won the Grey seat in a pre-WWI By-Election, retained the seat at the 1914 General Election, and then (after Webb was jailed for refusing military service) soon-to-be Labour Party leader, Harry Holland won it for Labour in a 1918 By-Election and then took Buller in 1919, holding it until his death. (for quite a while, there were 3 seats on the West Coast, Buller in the north, Grey in the centre, and Westland in the south).

         Historically, there’s been a North-South divide to political loyalties on the West Coast. If you take the major towns, for instance, the most northern – Westport was always (at least from the Great Depression) overwhelmingly Labour (and it’s still the most Left-friendly of the Coast’s larger towns), Reefton (second most northerly) was usually strongly-but-not-overwhelmingly Labour, Greymouth’s usual colour was orange rather than red (ie marginal-to-moderately-strong Labour) and the most southern of the bigger towns, Hokitika, was usually the mirror image of Greymouth (marginal National). So not entirely surprising that Westland (Hokitika + the mainly rural southern two-thirds of Westland) remained out of Labour’s grasp for quite some time. If I remember rightly, though, it was usually a pretty closely fought contest in Westland. The secondary town of Ross was always Labour-leaning.

         But what struck me when I was analysing the booth-by-booth stats back in the 90s was that, despite the general assumption of historians that the mining towns were staunchly left-leaning/Socialist from the start, it was much more complex than that. The SDP and then Labour tended to do pretty well in some of the smaller mining towns, but were not particularly strong in the larger ones until the Great Depression caused a bit of a ideological upheaval. Blackball was one of a small group of towns that comprised a Left bastion pretty much from the start.
   • greywarbler 1.2

     22 July 2014 at 10:37 am

     @Sable
     I hope your prognosis is as incorrect as your spelling is loose.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.3

     22 July 2014 at 5:24 pm

     Their biggest shortcoming is they are trying to be an every-man party and they are predictably failing as there have no clear message and as a result no clear consensus from voters as to why they should vote Labour.

     It’s not so much that they’re trying to be an every man party but that they’re still kowtowing to the rich while trying to be an every man party. They’re saying Yes, we’re going to change everything while keeping it the same for these select few just doesn’t work and comes across as being totally false.
   • David H 1.4

     22 July 2014 at 5:24 pm

     Nice essay, but you really need to know the difference between LOSE and Loose. Clue: one of them means your pants are falling down.

     http://www.ross.net/notes/loose.shtml

     This is worse than the Moron/Moran debacle.
     • Psycho Milt 1.4.1

       22 July 2014 at 7:11 pm

       It’s a noble sentiment, but the illiterates have won. For every correction they see, they’ve read a dozen misspellings of ‘lose’ written by fellow illiterates.
     • joe90 1.4.2

       22 July 2014 at 7:17 pm

       This is worse than the Moron/Moran debacle.

       Damn morans.
   • Murray Olsen 1.5

     23 July 2014 at 1:12 am

     I broadly agree with your analysis of the present Labour Party, but I think it will be Greens and Mana together who will take over from them. Mana have inherited the old radical social democratic values that Labour used to hold, while the Greens will be strong as a response to a different world view which we must develop. I think Mana and Greens are complementary in many ways.

     If the election is lost, it will be due to the pseudo-ACT MPs in Labour and the inability of the left wing to counter them. However, I hope we will win. I just hope we don’t have to depend on Winston First. I’d hate that 🙁
2. greywarbler 2

   22 July 2014 at 10:35 am

   This is today’s heading in Radionz News.

   Labour leader David Cunliffe plans a comeback ( 7′ 35″ )

   07:36 The Labour Leader David Cunliffe insists he is leading a united team and says he has no plans to hunt down the person who sparked headlines by criticising his three-day skiing holiday last week.

   If I found who spoke to a ‘source’ that person’s nose would be like tomato sauce. Violence is justified occasionally with adults. And it is all some understand. It can be more efficacious than words of sorrow and instruction or appealing to the person’s better nature. Which supposes they have one.

   Or perhaps a split lip would be more appropriate.
   • Pete 2.1

     22 July 2014 at 11:19 am

     Violence is justified occasionally with adults

     Unless you’re defending yourself or someone else from immediate physical harm (and I don’t mean the economic and social harm of a right-wing government), I’m going to have to disagree with you there. Use your words.
     • greywarbler 2.1.1

       22 July 2014 at 12:20 pm

       @Pete
       I am defending myself and a lot of others too when I suggest a bloody nose. Perhaps I’ll get Trevor Mallard to carry out the punishment, though self flagellation it may be.
   • Richard McGrath 2.2

     22 July 2014 at 8:09 pm

     “I walked away from Labour back in mid 80′s when Lange’s government in my opinion betrayed everything Labour stood and moved over to the Alliance. I feel little has changed since.”

     Sable, I’m curious as to why you would shift away from the Alliance – they are still a registered political party here. They haven’t deviated from their far left socialism, and I thought they would have lots of fans from the readership of this group.

     I agree with you that Labour are finished… Cunliffe never had the testicular fortitude to dump all free market policies, cannabilise Alliance policies and distance Labour from National.
   • Richard McGrath 2.3

     22 July 2014 at 8:14 pm

     Violence against others, or the desire to inflict it, has always been an integral part of leftist activism. I’m sure there are non-violent ways of settling the situation you describe, such as enforcing a contract and expelling the person concerned from the party. You don’t have to resort to thuggery.
     • felix 2.3.1

       22 July 2014 at 8:35 pm

       “Violence against others, or the desire to inflict it, has always been an integral part of leftist activism. “

       In the entire history of left vs right protest/industrial action in NZ, how many have been killed by those on the left?
       • Richard McGrath 2.3.1.1

         22 July 2014 at 8:52 pm

         I have no idea, I haven’t been keeping a tally. Perhaps someone here might have that information. There has been a lot of less serious injury and property damage caused by protestors over the years.
         • felix 2.3.1.1.1

           22 July 2014 at 8:59 pm

           The answer is none.

           And by those on the right?
           • Colonial Viper 2.3.1.1.1.1

             23 July 2014 at 8:14 am

             Thank you Felix. The global neoliberal movement which have caused untold numbers of deaths. Fuckers.
             • Richard McGrath …

               23 July 2014 at 9:16 pm

               As opposed to global communism which only killed between 85 and 100 million during the 20th century. Fuckers.
               • Colonial Viper …

                 23 July 2014 at 9:37 pm

                 Compared to corporate capitalism, which is going to ecologically destroy the planet.

                 By the way, please account for your 85M figure.
                 • Richard McGrath …

                   23 July 2014 at 10:18 pm

                   65 million in Red China
                   20 million in the USSR
                   2 million in Cambodia
                   2 million in North Korea
                   1.7 million in Africa
                   1.5 million in Afghanistan
                   1 million in Eastern Europe
                   1 million in Vietnam
                   150,000 in Latin America
                   • vto …

                     23 July 2014 at 10:26 pm

                     lol
                   • Richard McGrath …

                     24 July 2014 at 12:46 pm

                     VTO’s response to the itemised list of deaths directly attributable to communist governments: “lol”.

                     Says it all, really.
                   • Harry …

                     25 July 2014 at 1:55 pm

                     Richard – good point – conservative estimates there. For your trouble you get personal attacks from those who care about humanity so much that they can’t admit that communists ever did anything bad.

                     Forward comrades! To the gulag!
         • vto 2.3.1.1.2

           22 July 2014 at 9:05 pm

           What? You have no idea? But you just claimed that the left does that violent shit – then immediately declare that you have no idea……

           no idea

           The left has killed nobody in NZ in its activism.

           The right has killed Mr Abbot in Wellington in 1982, a Mr Evans was killed by the right in Waihi in I think 1912, and another has also been killed by the right in industrial action.

           You may also want to check out various right wing attack mobs and vigilantes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJj3Kx1eCO8

           It is the right wing that is violent.

           Go learn some basics you great useless ignoramus. Your type is dangerous in its ignorance
           • Richard McGrath 2.3.1.1.2.1

             23 July 2014 at 9:22 pm

             Gosh you lot are pleasant people. VTO, it is perfectly valid for me to claim that those on the left use thuggery, without knowing precisely how many people were killed by them. Thuggery and murder are different degrees of violence. Even if the number murdered by leftists in New Zealand was zero, that doesn’t equate to them being non violent.
             • vto …

               23 July 2014 at 10:24 pm

               you’re dingbat crazy lol that’s just nuts
               • Richard McGrath …

                 24 July 2014 at 12:49 pm

                 Can you elaborate on that comment? Why is what I have said irrational (“nuts”)?
   • Murray Olsen 2.4

     23 July 2014 at 1:20 am

     I am not a pacifist and I can sympathise with your lust for tomato sauce, even though I try to use words these days. Possibly mainly due to illness, I’ve been successful for about 8 years.

     Cunliffe should make sure that the idiot, if they are in Labour, is shamed and expelled. By not doing this, he’s not doing any of us any favours.
3. Tiger Mountain 3

   22 July 2014 at 10:42 am

   Now is the time to ‘snatch victory from the jaws of defeat’ as the saying goes. All efforts should be put into mobilising a “change the government” voter turnout.

   The agonising over and flaying of Labour can surely wait a few more weeks, the torys are certainly doing a decent enough hatchet job without left energy going there too. If the Internet Mana roll and the Greens mini tsunami like quiet achiever performance plus what Labour can pull out of the bag during the campaign does deliver then a different type of struggle just begins. But in a way better political climate than relentless tory attacks.

   • Re Labour;
   Lets be clear. Labour is a class collaborationist third way social democratic party, but still supported by many working class and middle class people.
   –Many firm lefties departed Labour long ago and the new leader ranks are predominately managerialists which makes things like party democracy that are so obvious to some of us a difficult concept to them.
   –Super at 67–a sure vote loser, blank out the bennies ditto. Dumping the Reserve Bank Act–not on your…
   This will not change before September 3–20 so lets get on with doing the best we can in whatever party or part of the community you operate in. If Labour can’t sit on the zoo that is the left over Rogernomes we are all going to suffer. So I am both critical of and supportive of Labour in this election as part of the needed left bloc.
4. Mike Smith 4

   22 July 2014 at 11:09 am

   Speaking of witless fools, what’s the point of keeping these stories running?
   • Tom Gould 4.1

     22 July 2014 at 11:28 am

     Because blaming everyone else for their own spectacular failure is all the real ‘witless fools’ can do, perhaps?
   • ghostwhowalksnz 4.2

     22 July 2014 at 11:32 am

     You are totally right. The original report referred to ‘party insider’, which is weak attribution. Even DPF says he been called a party insider. So we could have had someone who writes on blogs having a bitch about something. Think about it, the journalist has space to fill with their name on it.
     National doesnt get these stories because they have a full time cohort looking into and giving this sort of background info to journalists
   • McFlock 4.3

     22 July 2014 at 12:04 pm

     good for mana and the greens.

     Benefits to the left as a whole are therefore debatable one way or t’other, I guess. Shame for folk to regurgitate tory propaganda, though – leaves a bit of a foul aftertaste.
     • Sacha 4.3.1

       22 July 2014 at 1:56 pm

       How is Labour repeatedly putting its foot in its mouth helping any party on the left? Unless they’d rather be in opposition for another 3 years.
       • McFlock 4.3.1.1

         22 July 2014 at 2:20 pm

         I read the question as being “what’s the point of no right turn recycling tory beatups about alleged discontent within the Labour party?”
         • Sacha 4.3.1.1.1

           22 July 2014 at 2:51 pm

           Because some of us have been hoping they’d listen, so we can get a functioning left government. And look:

           http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10294305/Cunliffe-The-fightback-begins-now

           “Cunliffe said this afternoon’s caucus meeting, postponed to allow him to get back from delivering a speech in Nelson, would have some “earnest conversations about how we can do better”.

           “I am sure that the caucus will be as determined as I am that we stick to our knitting and to our core messages about jobs, homes and families, and avoid distractions,” Cunliffe said.”
           • McFlock 4.3.1.1.1.1

             22 July 2014 at 3:01 pm

             yes, that was all down to blog comments /sarc
             • Sacha …

               22 July 2014 at 5:27 pm

               running the world since forever
   • deep throat 4.4

     22 July 2014 at 12:23 pm

     Exactly Mike Smith.
     something has happened here.
     and I mean here on the Standard.
     Instead of being a vehicle for the party this blog is turning into a blab fest for anybody who is agaisnt the party and furthermore the editors who say they support the party are letting the creeps get away with it.
     How can we win an election if the creeps are allowed free access to run riot with their opinions and vitriol.
     The editors here better wake up.
     • fender 4.4.1

       22 July 2014 at 12:36 pm

       Oh dear, you may be new around here and although it’s not my place to tell you, you better read the about and the policy

       If you don’t get a tune up from Lprent, count yourself lucky.
       • David H 4.4.1.1

         22 July 2014 at 5:31 pm

         @fender Very very lucky..
       • deep throat 4.4.1.2

         22 July 2014 at 7:23 pm

         I’m not lucky.
         I just happen to be telling the truth.
     • mickysavage 4.4.2

       22 July 2014 at 1:32 pm

       The Standard has always had an open policy on debate. Keep it to the point and obey the rules and robust discussion is allowed. I don’t see any breach of those rules here.

       FWIW I did not put this post up. We often use IS’s posts so it is no surprise here. I agree with Mike that we should be discussing important issues such as what is wrong with the country and what we can do to fix it up.
       • The Fan Club 4.4.2.1

         22 July 2014 at 4:43 pm

         And just last night you were reassuring me that we were all about happy winning election stuff, and here’s another story run specifically to rark up the readership here about how much we hate those evuullll ABCs, and look, there’s people threatening to bludgeon Labour MPs in the face up there.

         Is it Annette King who’s going to have “a nose like tomato sauce”? Or maybe it’ll be Clare Curran who gets the bash? Or shall we batter Chris Hipkins until he’s gushing blood? You choose, based on whatever prejudices you have available.

         You know exactly what running these stories will do, you know exactly the response they’ll get, and still you run them, all so that if Cunliffe leads the party to the worst defeat ever this election he can still cling on to the leadership in a death grip. It’s disgusting.

         [Did you read my comment where I said I did not put this post up? It was not my choice and I would have preferred something less inflamatory. The Standard is a large collective with different writers. One of the others put it up. To be frank I do wish the misbehaviour by some MPs/candidates would stop. Someone is leaking like crazy and if they are within the party then they need to be dealt to, within the rules of course. Comment held for now because you appear to be trying to start a flame war – MS]

         [lprent: I put the post up. It needed to be said because there is some fuckwit dickhead(s) around inside Labour and they are causing some real damage to the left. Some fools are letting their personal ambition to get the better of their common sense in my opinion. This site is here to express opinions on the left. Clearly you don’t respect that. I guess you don’t like it. So live with that.

         Fuck off and be a dumb wanker elsewhere. You are banned until september 21st. ]
     • swordfish 4.4.3

       22 July 2014 at 1:35 pm

       You seem to be playing the role here of some sort of deeply loyal long-time Labour Party activist, DT. But wasn’t it just yesterday that you informed us all you “…used to vote national but after they said they would give colin craig a membership deal I will not vote for them anymore>” ?

       Here…http://thestandard.org.nz/herald-says-weird-things-about-cunliffe-and-labour-clutha-southland-candidate/#comment-852666

       In other words, National right up until recent weeks ?

       So why all this sudden fierce loyalty to “The Party” ? And why this sudden concern that “the real party people are leaving in droves because they are disgusted with the tone that has crept in here” ?
       • mickysavage 4.4.3.1

         22 July 2014 at 1:56 pm

         Busted!
         • Tiger Mountain 4.4.3.1.1

           22 July 2014 at 2:02 pm

           Time to swallow your false concern then Deep Throat
       • David H 4.4.3.2

         22 July 2014 at 5:33 pm

         Well spotted Swordfish. Caught a sneaky troll.
         • Te Reo Putake 4.4.3.2.1

           22 July 2014 at 6:25 pm

           Nope. See the explanation below. Just a backfiring piece of satire, not evidence of anything sneaky.
   • Blue 4.5

     22 July 2014 at 9:49 pm

     what’s the point of keeping these stories running?

     The point is akin to holding a blowtorch to the privates of the fucking idiots who can’t keep their mouths shut.

     I can understand the desire to sweep it all under the carpet, I really can. But then I see headlines like this and it just brings all the anger to the surface again.

     David Cunliffe, a father of two young children and a man leading a party that believes in allowing people to have time with their children is slammed for taking a three day holiday with them knowing that he won’t see much of them for the next two months. And he is forced to apologise because some fuckwit thinks he’s lazy for taking three days. This fuckwit further thinks that the ‘damage’ done by David’s three day holiday miraculously outweighs the damage done by said fuckwit criticising their leader in public and making Labour look like a divided mess destined for disaster, again.

     We had been doing so well – the leaks had stopped, Labour was presenting a reasonably united front in public, there had been some good policy and speeches coming out and then BAM, it’s back to ‘geez, what a fucking mess Labour are, they can’t even run their own party, let alone a country’.

     Infighting is the kiss of death at the ballot box. See what happened to Australian Labor for reference. Voters cannot abide disunity and they will vote for pretty much anything (see Tony Abbott) over a divided party where MPs spend all their time fighting with each other.

     The absolute fucking imbecile who blabbed to the media has done more damage in one day than all of the other distractions combined. It doesn’t seem to matter how often and how loud we shout it – the message to SHUT THE FUCK UP doesn’t seem to get through the thick skulls in caucus.

     There had better not be a repeat of this incident.
5. Michael 5

   22 July 2014 at 12:18 pm

   Better luck next time then?
6. deep throat 6

   22 July 2014 at 12:28 pm

   the proprietors of the Standard brand are letting creeps walk in here and shit all over the floor and the real party people are leaving in droves because they are disgusted with the tone that has crept in here and the barbed threats.
   The original standard people would not have stood still for a minute for this sort of nonsense.

   [lprent: Actually you can’t get any more original than me. I installed the wordpress, and registered the domain name. ]
   • just saying 6.1

     22 July 2014 at 12:43 pm

     the barbed threats.

     People say what they like within the constraints of the stated rules, and the unstated – not bullying, unduly abusing, or intimidating others.

     If you feel you or someone else in being threatened, you need to be more explicit. But if it is dissent that you are worried about…. well, a left-wing blog is probably a worrying place.
     • deep throat 6.1.1

       22 July 2014 at 1:16 pm

       I’m just saying that I agree with dissent %100 percent.
       as for the barbed threats and who made them then I will save that for later when they are needed.
       If you cant be bothered to keep up with the play then thats your problem.
       keep talking.
       as for NRT there was no “senior labour MP”.
       all that was a barefaced lie supplied to the press and picked up with glee with no attribution.
       that is the KEY to this election.
       Who is making up the lies and who is telling them.
       if you keep going after them one by one then all energy will be dissipated in a pointless and unwinnable activity.
       Not just one lie like the Zinoviev letter but an unending succession of them wholesale that are being retailed for full priced for buying special shoot yourself in the foot bullets.
       • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.1

         23 July 2014 at 8:20 am

         I’m just saying that I agree with dissent %100 percent.

         Don’t really sound like you are loving it in practice.
   • David H 6.2

     22 July 2014 at 5:37 pm

     So what DT we just let you Right wing Trolls just come in here and shit everywhere?

     If you want to shit everywhere just piss off back to whaleslime and TricKeys Fantasy site. (God that just sounds UGGGGgggggg)
     • Te Reo Putake 6.2.1

       22 July 2014 at 6:22 pm

       I don’t think DT is a right winger, David. His comment history is quite consistently left.
7. emergency mike 7

   22 July 2014 at 12:42 pm

   On the front page of TS this post references “the witless fool “senior” MP in Labour”, but the stuff article is quoting a “senior party insider”, which might not be, and probably isn’t a MP I’m guessing.

   I’ve heard Richard Prebble presented as a ‘Labour insider’ ffs.
   • lprent 7.1

     23 July 2014 at 12:25 am

     On the front page of TS this post references “the witless fool “senior” MP in Labour”, but the stuff article is quoting a “senior party insider”, which might not be, and probably isn’t a MP I’m guessing.

     The actual bit that points to the “senior party insider” (as it was in the original article (which has now been extensively amended)) in the SST being a MP is:-

     “We will be having a talk to David at caucus about his work ethic on Tuesday.”

     The problem for your thesis is that is quite a specific statement. The people in a caucus meeting are the MPs, the party secretary, and often the party president. I don’t think it would have been Tim Barnett or Moira Coatsworth leaking that kind of destabilising crap to a reporter.

     So either the reporter (Steve Kilgallon) was simply making crap up (ie lying) in one of more parts of his article before Simon Day got into it, or someone was stirring shit up inside caucus in exactly the same manner as happened in 2012 – which ultimately was the reason why this story was believable.

     If it was the former case, then Steve Kilgallon has now entered my shit list as a outright liar and unworthy of being a journalist..

     It it was the latter case, then from the quotes it would appear that the unnamed source was trying to destabilize the result of this election for the left to get some kind of positioning advantage post-election. If I ever find out who that was, I will be making a formal request to boot them out of Labour.

     In any case I’m really pissed off with the caucus for having played the types of past antics that made this story believable.

     I really don’t care either way
8. Stephanie Rodgers 8

   22 July 2014 at 1:05 pm

   I’m not a fan of NRT’s depressing tendency to label anyone and everyone he can as a “Labour hack” rather than engage with their actual arguments. This now probably extends to every Labour Party volunteer who chooses to continue working hard in the election campaign because they believe in it.
   • Idiot/Savant 8.1

     22 July 2014 at 3:32 pm

     No, I’d call those people “suckers”. But if they want to work for a party organisation which seems intent on undermining their efforts, that’s their problem.
     • Stephanie Rodgers 8.1.1

       22 July 2014 at 7:46 pm

       One numpty-saboteur =/= the entire party organisation.
       • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1

         22 July 2014 at 8:19 pm

         It takes but one saboteur to open the city gates and lose the entire war.
         • Richard McGrath 8.1.1.1.1

           22 July 2014 at 8:58 pm

           … or to lance the festering boil and squeeze out the fetid cheesy contents.
         • Stephanie Rodgers 8.1.1.1.2

           22 July 2014 at 10:36 pm

           Yes, but the point is that one saboteur’s actions are not reflective of total systemic failure.

           I/S would probably argue that there’s been total systemic failure as well, but one is still not proof of the other.
           • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.2.1

             23 July 2014 at 12:46 am

             Yes, but the point is that one saboteur’s actions are not reflective of total systemic failure.

             I think you are taking a somewhat optimistic view of this. This type of sabotage behaviour doesn’t usually occur in isolation from a permissive/provocative organisational context and culture. And as lprent has pointed out, this most recent sabotage behaviour looks more like a continuing pattern rather than a one off.

             I agree with you in that it may not point to a “total systemic failure” per se, but it does suggest that serious re-engineering and democratisation within the Labour Party has to continue.
     • lprent 8.1.2

       23 July 2014 at 12:29 am

       But if they want to work for a party organisation which seems intent on undermining their efforts, that’s their problem.

       I have no particular problem with putting up your post. It made a useful point. However this statement demands a rejoinder.

       I guess that never working for any party in particular in a campaign (as far as I can see) makes you an expert on the subject? It must be like never being disappointed in a relationship by never having any?

       What it points to is some fool(s) being more concerned about their own objectives and less concerned (as you pointed out) with those of either the party or of cause of the left in general.

       Basically egotist fools are pretty common in all political organisations, left, right or in any other axes you care to name.
   • Anne 8.2

     22 July 2014 at 3:39 pm

     I think Jenny Kirk has put it in a nut-shell.

     Herald 22nd July- Letter to the Editor.

     Labour grizzlers

     I am fed up with cowardly Labour MPs grizzling anonymously about David Cunliffe’s performance.

     These MPs need to front up and show themselves as brave enough to withstand the barrage of protest that will come their way when volunteer Labour supporters – all working their guts out for the party’s election campaign – find out who they are.

     I could take an educated guess who they are. But they really should show themselves to be men and not wimps by hiding behind the anonymity of “Labour spokesperson”.

     Jenny Kirk
     Former Labour MP.

     Well said Jenny.

     While the reporter’s source may not have been a parliamentarian, he was acting at the behest of a small group of ABCers. They have used a black ops. campaign – run in the first instance by Jason Ede and Cameron Slater – to further undermine David and regain their control of caucus. They have to go!
     • Richard McGrath 8.2.1

       22 July 2014 at 9:01 pm

       Well said, Jenny. These Labour Party ABCers need to crawl out from under their rock and get on with the business of rolling Cunliffe… if they want Labour to stop its slide toward oblivion.
9. Sacha 9

   22 July 2014 at 2:00 pm

   “talking about the need for everyone on the left to work “hard, seamlessly, together, and well” ” – at least one party offered Labour such an arrangement and was rebuffed. Top strategy, chaps.
10. deep throat 10

    22 July 2014 at 2:28 pm

    you guys just aren’t up with it.
    haven’t you been reading the posts?
    the favourite ploy of the righties that lurk is the old I used to vote labour but now I dont because ….fill in the gaps.
    if you dont recognise irony then you are stunted persons.
    as far as being committed to the party I am totally committed but I dont see this interweb pseudo objectivity being allowed to descend into turning a blind eye to reality.
    see sometimes this place feels like a hobby project for middle class labour party would be intellectuals/media barons and you guys have to wake your ideas up.
    and I gave you the details on the contact us email but you dont seem to have read it.
    • emergency mike 10.1

      22 July 2014 at 2:46 pm

      That sure is lot of concern you’ve got there.
      • deep throat 10.1.1

        22 July 2014 at 6:33 pm

        yep.
    • Te Reo Putake 10.2

      22 July 2014 at 3:14 pm

      Well, I’d have to say there’s a lot here who do get irony, dt, but if your comments are in written in a way that gives no clue that irony is intended then the mistake is not the reader’s. And of course, your line about “I used to vote …” isn’t irony, anyway, it’s parody. But, no matter.

      Try using things like fullstops, commas and quotation marks, or even smileys, so that we can know which bits are the ironical and which bits are the serious. We already have one stream of unconsciousness practitioner here busily dumbing …. down the language …

      in a way …

      that’s completely ….

      un …. reada … ble….

      (see what I did there?)
      • swordfish 10.2.1

        22 July 2014 at 3:59 pm

        chrs 4 that there…trp…

        i…dunno…..d’ya reckon ?…..

        me ?……i’ve …grown…….

        accustomed… 2…

        phil…..ure’s…….

        um…..er…..creative….tendencies…..eh ..?

        he has some…ur…bits n bobs that r…ok…

        ..in his…y’know…stream of…whatsits…….

        he cd be a…poster child…

        ..for a vegan diet…I reckon…eh…?

        or…at least…he wd b a …potential customer 4……

        …an ethical…cruelty-free….

        ..meat-less…diet…then….eh…?

        …so…there ya go…!

        …but wait…!…there’s more…!
        • greywarbler 10.2.1.1

          24 July 2014 at 9:33 am

          @ swordfish 3.59
          The pen is even mightier when the swordfish has it.
      • deep throat 10.2.2

        22 July 2014 at 6:36 pm

        trp.
        another one that wants to tell everyone else what to do.
        you know what I am saying so dont fudge it.
        or are you just another troll?
    • David H 10.3

      22 July 2014 at 5:51 pm

      Oh DeepThroat why don’t you go back to your NAT bosses and live up to your name. Sucker!!
      • deep throat 10.3.1

        22 July 2014 at 6:38 pm

        Oh stop making up lies dh.
        you just another obfuscator who cant read or comprehend anything above dat, dere, dem and dese.
        • greywarbler 10.3.1.1

          24 July 2014 at 9:38 am

          @deep throat 6.38
          What a waste of a good intellect – bang. Don’t be so touchy. You could be easier to read you know, which would be clearer for everyone else. You seem to be saying something interesting, even important, but well one can’t be sure.

          We actually don’t want to kill the bouzouki player. If I’m being too obscure I’ll explain.
11. TeWhareWhero 11

    22 July 2014 at 3:18 pm

    ‘Guys like ….Annette King …’ certainly indicates someone whose thought processes owe a bit more to his amygdala than his prefrontal cortex.
12. ianmac 12

    22 July 2014 at 3:52 pm

    This time I think No Right Turn is so wrong to promote the “self-mutilation” myth.
    It is based on what exactly? A covert mystery one person?
    Gavin Ellis on 9 to Noon gives a rousing condemnation of journalist who published without verification.
    1 How much does the source know?
    2. Does the source have a motive?
    3. Can it be verified by more than one source? Triangulate.
    Gavin reckons this item failed at all levels.
    I think NRT has also failed in this case.
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20142606
    • wtl 12.1

      22 July 2014 at 4:35 pm

      IS at NRT has pretty much decided “everything Labour does is wrong”, it’s blatantly obvious from his recent posts. I agree that some of his posts on Labour are pretty irrational, as you’ve pointed out, but if he wants to keep being a “sucker” and falling for media spin, that’s his problem.
      • One Anonymous Bloke 12.1.1

        22 July 2014 at 6:33 pm

        Pundit to pull head in, predicts partisan patron.

        Don’t be captured by media spin, accept that the left is many people with many voices and the worst possible political philosophy apart from all the other ones.
    • deep throat 12.2

      22 July 2014 at 6:40 pm

      Of course it failed on all points yet it gets repeated here as gospel.
      have the editors here gone mad or are they just derelict in their duties.
    • mickysavage 12.3

      22 July 2014 at 9:43 pm

      Ellis was very good. And it makes you wonder if we are getting played …
    • lprent 12.4

      22 July 2014 at 10:54 pm

      Problem is that this article fits into a pattern of behaviour far too well. It is exactly the same kind of dumbarse whisper campaign from inside Labour that we have seen far too often already. I’m quite tired of it. I was tired of it at the end of 2012. I’m completely intolerant about it now.

      If Labour want to stop these anonymous leak stories then they have to do one of two things. Metaphorically stake out and burn the source(s) inside Labour or stake out the dickhead reporters making up stories and burn them. I really don’t care which.

      Even if this particular case was a dickhead reporter (which I have my doubts on), the problem was that it is a believable pattern of behaviour.

      In the meantime if I see similar stories coming out or “senior” Labour sources. I’m going to be getting blunter about the need to roast the Labour caucus and the entire Labour establishment.

      Their job is to not allow dipshits like Hipkins did in 2012 to add fuel for future flames for ‘jonolists’ years later.
      • Sacha 12.4.1

        22 July 2014 at 11:27 pm

        “the problem was that it is a believable pattern of behaviour” – exactly. Everyone deserves better than this by now, surely. Lance the boil/s. Get on with winning an election.
      • john 12.4.2

        22 July 2014 at 11:29 pm

        You problem is more fundamental than the leakers – it’s that you have a leader that most of the public and some MPs don’t back.

        I talked to a taxi driver yesterday who considered himself a lifetime labourite, but said he couldn’t vote for David Cunliffe.

        Like Goff and Shearer (and English), Cunliffe is probably a very capable and effective MP, but he’s simply not a leader that people will back – not many are.

        Once you find the right person, things can change quickly. Even Brash got over twice the votes and twice the percentage that National got under Bill English. And he wasn’t exactly inspiring.
        • Sacha 12.4.2.1

          22 July 2014 at 11:34 pm

          “Once you find the right person, things can change quickly” – as head of strategy and communications, yes.
13. john 13

    22 July 2014 at 6:26 pm

    Most people I know didn’t see anything wrong with Cunliffe taking three days off with his children – it was a bit of a non-story.

    What is it with the trend of apologising when you haven’t done anything wrong? Key is now supposed to apologise despite having nothing to do with the Malaysian diplomat getting away.

    What could possibly do more damage for Cunliffe, is that he has now apologized for taking a very small and much needed break. It looks pretty wishy-washy and not very leader-like.

    He needs his own moral compass and to stop blowing with the wind and saying whatever he thinks people want to hear.
    • Colonial Viper 13.1

      23 July 2014 at 8:28 am

      What is it with the trend of apologising when you haven’t done anything wrong? Key is now supposed to apologise despite having nothing to do with the Malaysian diplomat getting away.

      Key’s responsibility is having not brought McCully and McCully’s performance into line, as well as doing sweet F.A. to help. That’s what Key wears as his responsibility and his fuck up to apologise for.

      And just from a general sense of humanity (hard for a sociopath I know) whose government has badly let down a young woman through BS at the state/diplomatic level.
      • vto 13.1.1

        23 July 2014 at 8:35 am

        I think he should apologise simply because the organisation he leads, the government, fucked up a serious alleged assault case on a young woman.

        Pretty bloody simple. Out here in the real world if something our organisation does had that sort of result we would immediately be on the phone trying to put things right and apologising for the damage caused.

        Problem is John Key.

        not sure what
        world he lives in
        he’s a bit weird really

        and dangerous
14. anker 14

    22 July 2014 at 6:49 pm

    John @13……..except it was written by Claire Trevitt……….I don’t believe a word she says……..
15. Pissed off Leftie 15

    22 July 2014 at 7:01 pm

    So as it looks increasingly unlikely that the Labour Party is not going to get its shit together,
    Please please do not elect Grant Fucking Robertson as leader in October
    • Kiwiri 15.1

      22 July 2014 at 11:38 pm

      Grant would be too shrewd to go into the leader’s seat so quickly. Arrangements will see Parker in to hold the seat for a bit. And then, part way through an increasingly very unpopular third term National Party, Grant will declare his hand to be carried by the victorious red tide of 2017. The more the membership and broad support peals away from the Party, the better that would work out for the Parker-Grant plan.

      At the rate the rubbish of the past few weeks carry on, it would not be surprising if a shadow of doubt about Cunliffe is starting to creep upon the staunchest of Cunliffe’s supporters. Cunliffe needs to awaken his instincts and reactivate his wider source of advice and support if he wants to win for 20 Sep 2014.
16. Foreign Waka 16

    22 July 2014 at 7:45 pm

    How very sad the whole saga is. Mr Cunliffe, a great mind and very intelligent is, and never will be able to withstand the lowlifes that run the campaign of late. Young people will watch, laugh their heads off and see it for what it is. Politics driven by politics for the sake of politics and no one gives a damn about the people who loose their jobs, struggle to keep food on the table, if they have a table at all. Indeed it looks like that some want to loose the election on purpose. I wish Mr Cunliffe the best but I think he hasn’t got a show in hell, better to use the talent somewhere where it actually is wanted and needed. Sad for NZ, sad for the people who are part of the party and really try and work hard. But better to walk away, the rot has bitten too deep.
17. Doughty 17

    22 July 2014 at 10:35 pm

    For a Left/Labour orientated website most (not all) of you seem to have fallen for the rights smear campaign.
    Most of what is put out in the news are/is just a hatchet jobs on labour and it appears to be working when the party faithful begin to believe the lies. The main stream news is bias, the political reporting is bias, the polls are slanted, there is a massive amount of NLP in news articles, and a hell of a lot of manipulative Delphi technique going on, and now of course divide and rule. I’m voting Labour TWO ticks Come hell or high water, stay the course people for fuck sake.

    PS: the spelling and grammar Nazi’s, grow up there are more important issues atm
    • lprent 17.1

      22 July 2014 at 11:06 pm

      I/S at No Right Turn isn’t a Labour person and doesn’t look like he ever has been. I announced my intention to party vote Green back in 2012 for exactly this type of “smear campaign” which was done by people inside Labour – in that case from a manufactured ‘coup’ that didn’t exist by people such as the whip and the leader at the time. My trust of the caucus was diminished as a direct result.

      This looks horribly familiar. As far as I am concerned as a long-time decades long Labour supporter, a party that does that type of crap to itself needs a good solid purge in its caucus. The problem with this “smear” is that it is entirely plausible to have come from inside Labour. I’m sick and tired of it.
    • Sacha 17.2

      22 July 2014 at 11:32 pm

      “For a Left/Labour orientated website most (not all) of you seem to have fallen for the rights smear campaign.”

      No, some silly folk inside the tent have fallen for the FPP-style media coverage of polls, etc and are not believing their side can win. Voters tend to punish lack of confidence so it’s wastefully self-fulfilling behaviour if not promptly and decisively corrected.
      • Colonial Viper 17.2.1

        22 July 2014 at 11:37 pm

        Voters tend to punish lack of confidence so it’s wastefully self-fulfilling behaviour if not promptly and decisively corrected.

        And the confidence and self-assuredness of the Labour Leader is absolutely critical, in this regard.

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1. Public broadcasting: an election issue « The Standard The Standard: posted on 23 July 2014 at 9:32 am

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