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Open mike 03/05/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 3rd, 2012 - 174 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

174 comments on “Open mike 03/05/2012”

  1. AAMC 1

    Some pictures from the Asset Sale march last Sat…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUVnXXv7e2U

    • Carol 1.1

      Thanks. Being right down the back of the march I didn’t see a lot of that stuff in the video. It’s a good sign that I couldn’t see it though – indicates it was a march of significant size.

    • ianmac 1.2

      My thanks too. Far too far away to attend.

      • AAMC 1.2.1

        Glad they’re of use in allowing some who couldn’t be there to feel part of it.

  2. james 111 2

    So if the Ice isnt melting like we were told it was, and the King Penguins are breeding like crazy when we were told they would all be extinct. What is the actual effect of Global Warming (oops climate change is there any at all?

    “Dr Allison said there was not any evidence of significant change in the mass of ice shelves in east Antarctica nor any indication that its ice cap was melting. “The only significant calvings in Antarctica have been in the west,” he said. And he cautioned that calvings of the magnitude seen recently in west Antarctica might not be unusual.

    “Ice shelves in general have episodic carvings and there can be large icebergs breaking off – I’m talking 100km or 200km long – every 10 or 20 or 50 years.”

    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13253

    • Kotahi Tane Huna 2.1

      James111’s myopia makes so much more sense in the context of recent findings regarding stupidity.

      But what is happening to the ice sheets? Rignot et al 2011.

    • rosy 2.2

      Jimmy, jimmy jimmy…

      global research? really?

      In an op-ed in the conservative Canadian news outlet, Western Standard, Chossudovsky was listed as one of Canada’s nuttiest professors “whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues.” Specifically, the op-ed criticized GlobalResearch.ca as “anti-U.S. and anti-globalization”and criticized Chussodovsky’s “wild-eyed conspiracy theories”.

      Full op-ed here

      • Bill 2.2.1

        Rosy, Global Reasearch does carry some good articles that are reproduced on other – how should I say – more reputable sites. And Chossudovsky has written some incisive stuff too. It’s all a matter of reading critically.

        Thing is, many people have odd or peculiar approaches on some subjects…approaches that shouldn’t be given much, if any, weight. But to dismiss someone entirely – and a whole lot of other people and opinions by extension or association as the Western Standard does (and other sources do), is a tried and tested tactic designed to shut down debate and by-pass or dismiss serious discussion/analysis.

        Simply put it goes along the lines of:

        1. Chossudovsky is a nutter.
        2. Everything he says is nuts.
        3. Anyone saying anything that Chossudovsky agrees with must be nuts.
        4. Anything they are saying is nuts too.

        edit. And the piece that james111 linked to originated in ‘the Australian’ and was written by Greg roberts who also, incidentally seems to be a ‘truther’. Why Global Research reproduced it? Dunno. Their business.

      • Bill 2.2.2

        Missed the damned edit window, but funnily enough every single link from that piece goes to ‘news.com.au’.

        • rosy 2.2.2.1

          All well and good, Bill. But critical thinking is an acquired skill. Best he links to the source imo.

          Really though, I’ve seen links to GR here before and not mentioned it given the world view of the commenters. But if you’ve seen James111 comments I reckon you might agree he needs to know that GR does not generally hold the same views as he does – i.e. John Key won’t be a fan of this anti-american, anti-global capital site ;-)

          btw I don’t think GR publishing the work of a truther is incidental.

    • Carol 2.3

      And yet, and yet…. maybe they need to look at the Antarctic from a slightly different angle?

      http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0426/Antarctic-ice-melting-from-below-reveals-satellite-video

      Data collected from a NASA ice-watching satellite reveal that the vast ice shelves extending from the shores of western Antarctica are being eaten away from underneath by ocean currents, which have been growing warmer even faster than the air above.
      […]
      Most of the melting ice shelves are located in west Antarctica, where the flow of inland glaciers to the sea has also been accelerating — an effect that can be compounded by thinning ice shelves which, when grounded to the offshore seabed, serve as dams to hold glaciers back.

      Melting of ice by ocean currents can occur even when air temperature remains cold, maintaining a steady process of ice loss — and eventually increased sea level rise.
      […]
      The study also found that Antarctica’s winds are shifting in response to climate change.

    • joe90 2.4

      The last refuge, clouds will save us.

  3. muzza 3

    While my interlocutors were quite open about the details of the visit, they didn’t want to discuss the identity of the “important man” who had asked them to host Bin Laden. They were also reluctant to share information on who else was in the entourage.

    Another facinating exaample of how the media now control perspective. This piece of fiction from the hailed BBC.

    Not a single word to validate the “story”, not a shred to validation for the writing, just a bare faced attempt to sell the narrative. even the title reads like a book title – “The Tiger who came to tea”

    Meanwhile Obama uses his “victory” as a key election campaign tool. oh how very predictable, and callow

    Most if not all of the Seal Team 6 are now dead of course so, those who carried out the raid can never speak out, but this is familiar territory, just like Pat Tillman and others, dead soldiers can’t tell tales.

    I guess media no longer need to investigative journailism, not when the average eperson just want to absorb lies and fiction in convenient soundbites….Yup, this story is just another link in the farcical chain of the past 12 years or so!

    • Kotahi Tane Huna 3.1

      There’s an alternative explanation that. painful as it may be, we have to consider: you could just be misinformed. Or delusional. Or both. I’m picking both.

      • muzza 3.1.1

        Hey OAB, missed your insults the past short while….hope all is well bro!

        The Voice has his sparring partner back….check your info on that seal team, mate there were deaths at the scene, and very well covered up, well not so much as it turn out.

        Nah Ill take the first hand conversation with a mate of mine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan with the US forces, who tells me, they were told that OBL was dead around 2001, over anything I read via someone who has never served in a war every single time..That includes the two of you veterans both I’m quite sure!

        • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1.1

          Oh dear, Muzza. I was expecting a bit more vigorous response than that. But I guess without any facts to go on, your invisible friend is a good option.

          • muzza 3.1.1.1.1

            Why would I need to vigorously respond to that Voice?

            You seem to think that a casual dismissal of people I know, their experiences and the like are the work of fiction is clever, so why would I waste my time vigorously defending such an arrogant mindset, as to tell someone who they do, or do not know…

            Edit – An on que the other mind reader OAB, who knows all about peoples lifes experiences, job experiences and personal contacts, chimes in with yet more masterful musings! -

        • Kotahi Tane Huna 3.1.1.2

          I can’t imagine a more reliable source than a soldier who heard something while on active service. And then I woke up.

          • muzza 3.1.1.2.1

            Thats right bloke, people who have served actively, will have been privy to details that the rest of us won’t be, well spotted.

            Unlike yourself, they do not have to dream it, due to the fact they have lived it!

            • Kotahi Tane Huna 3.1.1.2.1.1

              Sorry, I was teasing. Soldiers’ gossip is a by-word for unreliable.

              • muzza

                “Sorry, I was teasing. Soldiers’ gossip is a by-word for unreliable”

                — Coming from someone who has never served, that is quite a stunning admission of complete and utter disrespect!

                Interested to know what sources of information around the subject of war, and in particular the OBL “killing” you might hold up as , acceptable to your all knowing ego? Given that you have never served! Are you able to accept there are people out there who have experienced, and thus know more than yourself bro? I’m not talking about me either here…

                • Kotahi Tane Huna

                  Poor Muzza, always playing catch up. The earliest reference I can find to the unreliability of soldiers’ gossip is in le Carré’s Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy but I am sure I have read it expressed as an idiom by one of the German authors – probably a Mann.

                  Then there’s Sun Tzu – the art of war is deception.

                  How funny you are, a man bereft of evidence, for whom all contradictory sources are bogus.

                  • muzza

                    Just keep consoling youself that you know more than anyone else Bloke, its not a good look, but you don’t really care about such triva, as active soldiers first hand experiences, nor want to accept that some people, actually have these contacts!

                    What a terribly sheltered, uninteresting life you must have lead to think the way you do, and so easily pour scorn on others. Still its a NZ trait, especially those who have never had experiences outside this island nation!

                    Keep reading your books, and pretending you are on top of it all while ridiculing others first hand , real life experience!

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      ” … but you don’t really care about such triva, as active soldiers first hand experiences, …”
                       
                      But your invisible mate didn’t have a first hand experience. You said someone told him Bin Laden was dead, remember?

                    • Kotahi Tane Huna

                      Earth to Muzza: hearsay ≠ experience.

                      I note your “mate” is now one of your “contacts”. Self-aggrandising much?

                      Clearly you lack the imaginative capability necessary to understand exactly why soldiers’ gossip is a by-word for unreliability, not to mention the curiosity to try and understand the point once made.

                      As for your pitiful assertions, what do they say about me? Nothing – quite apart from the fact that you couldn’t be more wrong at every point, you are projecting wildly, attacking the messenger rather than attempting to cope with the argument.

                      I will continue to pour scorn on your “opinions”, so long as they are fact free and utterly delusional. I have no doubt that I am ignorant of various things of which you are not, but I can still spot bullshit a mile away – perhaps that is what comes of having spent over twenty years abroad.

                    • muzza

                      Earth to Muzza: hearsay ≠ experience.

                      —Yes thats right, but my point has only ever been, that I will take the information given by my friend who has served in both Iraq & Afghanistan, for the US forces. I form my own opinions, you care free to do the same.

                      “I note your “mate” is now one of your “contacts”. Self-aggrandising much?”

                      —-Its just use of a word, he is a mate, notice the how I was writing and the context of the word. Nice projection and diversion though, not transparent at all!

                      “Clearly you lack the imaginative capability necessary to understand exactly why soldiers’ gossip is a by-word for unreliability, not to mention the curiosity to try and understand the point once made. ”

                      —Actually no I got your point, however you are trying to tell me that my mate does not exist, and that he talks fantasy, as some defence to your argument that you do not accept, I have such friends or that his “imaginery” opinions from his time in the wars are BS. Really are you kidding!

                      “As for your pitiful assertions, what do they say about me? Nothing – quite apart from the fact that you couldn’t be more wrong at every point, you are projecting wildly, attacking the messenger rather than attempting to cope with the argument. ”

                      —No your own words say more than enough about you, and flat out accusing someone of lies, about who or what they know, is more than enough self portrait!

                      “I will continue to pour scorn on your “opinions”, so long as they are fact free and utterly delusional. I have no doubt that I am ignorant of various things of which you are not, but I can still spot bullshit a mile away – perhaps that is what comes of having spent over twenty years abroad.”

                      —So to summise, you flat out deny the existence of MY friend who served in the wars, and regard his opinions as invalid, lies or whatever, should you actually believe he exists? Do you see the problem with your 20 years away and claiming to be able to spot BS?
                      If your 20 years abroad is shown up in your words here I suggest you head away again until you can see the BS inside yourself…I mean what sort of individual, having never met me, would claim that my friends dont exist, thus their opinions are therefore invalid rumours, from my made up friend!

                      You can’t see the problem with you can you, nor accept that my views are just that. Your massive ego simply can’t accept it!

                      Voice – Yes of course thats what he heard while serving his country. I’m happy to accept that information, not as gospal, but when aggregated to other readins and info, is used to form my opinions. So if taking information from people who were there, albeit yes that what ‘he heard” while serving, is not ok by you, thats fine, and your prerogative, you are free to believe what ever you like!

                    • Kotahi Tane Huna

                      Muzza, sorry to burst your bubble, but Te Reo Putake questions the existence of your mate, not I. You were saying?

                    • muzza

                      “Muzza, sorry to burst your bubble, but Te Reo Putake questions the existence of your mate, not I. You were saying?”

                      Actually you said:

                      “How funny you are, a man bereft of evidence, for whom all contradictory sources are bogus”

                      —- Bereft of evidence, would be a non existant mate no?, because that is what we are talking about, in this specific context, and my inclination to accept what he has told me. That is what we have been talking about!

                    • Kotahi Tane Huna

                      First you say your mate was told this story by an un-named third party. Now you say it counts as “evidence”, but I’m going to have to burst that bubble too, because hearsay is no more evidence than it is experience.

                      So as you can see, I have made no statement regarding the existence or otherwise of your mate.

                  • muzza

                    “First you say your mate was told this story by an un-named third party. Now you say it counts as “evidence”, but I’m going to have to burst that bubble too, because hearsay is no more evidence than it is experience.”

                    — No, what I said first was, I would take the first hand experiences of my friend who served in the wars, others then tried to tell me my mate did not exist and that as a soldier his information was unreliable, thats all it was Bloke. Again I have said nothing more than I accept that information I received from him first hand, during a face to face meeting with my mate a few weeks after the alledged “OBL Killing” last year. So yes it counts as first hand evidence to me, which I use to form opinions. You may not like it, or agree, thats fine, we are each entitled to our own opinions, however we form them!
                    Reading articles written by people who did not serve, who represent agendas from government/corporates, are no less hearsay, than you claim my friends information to be. The difference for me, is that I have direct contact to him, he had direct contact to the wars, how he came into information he formed opinions on, is not something I have brought into this discussion!

                    “So as you can see, I have made no statement regarding the existence or otherwise of your mate.”

                    —Nice climbdown!

                    • Kotahi Tane Huna

                      “Climbdown”? Piss off Noddy, I can’t climb down from a position I never held in the first place, and I’m not going to make allowances for your comprehension deficit.

    • Te Reo Putake 3.2

      “Most if not all of the Seal Team 6 are now dead of course so, those who carried out the raid can never speak out, …”
       
      Er, no, Muzza. The team that took out Bin Laden are still with us, though some of their comrades in a different section of the group were killed when a helicopter was shot down in Afghanistan a few months later.

      • Kotahi Tane Huna 3.2.1

        I say, that’s a bit unsporting, referencing reality like that. How can the narrative be maintained if you go insisting on boring facts?

    • locus 3.3

      Muzza – did you notice that the bbc article was in the magazine section? And that it’s a tale about something that may have happened back in 2010? It’s an entertaining wee story which on reflection, may well hold some weight given that we now know where Osama was hiding out – and that it’s unlikely he could have stayed there without the knowledge and tacit support of some in the Pakistan military.

      The other story you’ve linked to is a report by the Washington Times. Note that The Washington Times was established “to combat communism and be a conservative alternative to the liberal bias of The Washington Post”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Times#Political_leanings

      So this Republican newpaper reports on an advert sponsored by an extremely right wing Republican group that has a track record of playing dirty to bring down Democrats. And you really think that it’s painting a truthful picture about Obama, that they haven’t cut and pasted what they want – and out of context – in an attempt to smear?

      As for “investigative journalism”, I suggest you steer away from the likes of the Washington Times and read up on how this nasty little ad was put together http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/05/swift-boating-obama-has-begun/51811/

      • muzza 3.3.1

        @Locus “Muzza – did you notice that the bbc article was in the magazine section? And that it’s a tale about something that may have happened back in 2010? It’s an entertaining wee story which on reflection, may well hold some weight given that we now know where Osama was hiding out – and that it’s unlikely he could have stayed there without the knowledge and tacit support of some in the Pakistan military”

        — I think you just nicely proved my point about narratives Locus, and the controlling of them. It has nothing to do with the fact it was in the magazine section, or a it being an entertaining wee story as you put it. Thanks for the info on the washpost, which I am aware of the partisan nature of what passes for news media in the USA, and no its not where one would look for investigative journalism, but an example of the dros which people absorb, which is the point!
        Ill check out your link, cheers

        • Vicky32 3.3.1.1

          It’s an entertaining wee story which on reflection, may well hold some weight given that we now know where Osama was hiding out – and that it’s unlikely he could have stayed there without the knowledge and tacit support of some in the Pakistan military”

          So, may we assume that Pakistan is the next target? That’s what I take from that ‘entertaining wee story’. Good grief, Locus, gullible much? :)

  4. With President Obama’s visit to Afghanistan, talk of us eventually exiting our forces from there, and someone I know having just returned from duty there, I’ve remembered a cartoon from a decade ago – see Rubble of Afghanistan.

    While the rubble be any different in a few years, once the occupation has ended?

  5. ad 5

    God this is just a fun time to watch politics.

    Loved hearing Goff go at it this morning on National Radio about the MFAT cuts. When asked whether leaking by public servants is OK, he said: “Loyalty is a two edged sword. If you treat your staff well, as an employer you’ll be fine. But if you make their jobs insecure and sell them out, don’t expect loyalty back.” I just wish we’d had THAT politician on the attack for the precvious three years.

    Great fun seeing Banks slow-roast. He deserves it for being Mayor and selling most of Auckland’s public housing stock away. No wonder we have a massive shortage of rental properties in Auckland and skyrocketing rents. The media roasting he will get when the Police report comes out will be just a foretaste of his roasting in hell. When he dies, I will be there to tramp the dirt down.

    Iv’e got a question about Mallard: is he the Richard Loe of the Left – the necessary evil. Or is he just too costly in penalties for the team? Offloading to Shearer with a really bad ball like that was really ouch, as was the simply wrong comments about Banks and the Hong Kong accommodation. But is there anyone else in Labour who can make hard hits?

  6. For the day’s entertainment people should have a look at the Trade (Safeguard Measures) Bill debate from last night. Banks was in the chair and it was a very uncomfortable place to be. Labour continuously mocked him. I am no fan of Mallard but his evisceration of Banks was hilarious. The video is at http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/12548.

    • It made a farce of “debate” in Parliament. That’s the sort of thing that puts a lot of people off having any interest in politics.

      Did it contribute anything to running the country or good democratic process?

      The same people that praise childish MP behaviour then grizzle about the million people that didn’t vote for their own party.

      • mickysavage 6.1.1

        The farce Petey is that Banks is still in Parliament AND still a minister.  The situation is that ludicrous what else can Labour do but point this out?

        National should be ashamed of having to rely on the support of such a hopelessly compromised party.  And United Follicles should be ashamed for supporting such a rabble. 

        • Pete George 6.1.1.1

          what else can Labour do but point this out?

          They could act like sensible MPs who look capable of running a country, that would be good for a start. Instead they look worse than Banks, otherwise it has achieved nothing.

          If you don’t get the relationship between ridiculous disrespective behaviour in parliament and people not bothering to vote for your party you’re dumber than a bar and weights.

          • felix 6.1.1.1.1

            The “disrespective behaviour in parliament” was putting the utterly disgraced, totally out of credibility Banks in the chair to shepherd the bill and expecting the other 120 MPs to pretend it wasn’t happening.

            • Pete George 6.1.1.1.1.1

              I thought that was odd and unwise. But there’s still rules of the house to follow.

              If I was an MP and felt strongly about it I think I’d have walked out, and encouraged as many others as possible to do the same.

              • Why, because Trevor was being mean to Banksie?

                • You haven’t worked out the relationship between level of the Mallard method and the diminishing vote yet?

                  I don’t expect an answer, nor any lightbulbs.

                  • So tell me Petey what is the reason for UF’s outstanding success in the polls?

                    • You’re trying to divert again Greg. Your usual head in sand.

                    • Petey the one person in the country trying to defend Johndotbanks despite a plethora of dodgy behaviour to complain about and the one person complaining because Mallard is being mean.
                       
                      And the mastermind of a 0.2% campaign criticising a party at 35%.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      At least Petey occasionally says, half heartedly, that he thinks “Banks should go” before launching into another vigorous defence and deflection on his behalf.

                    • a) I’m not trying to defend Banks
                      b) I played a very minor part in the election
                      c) UF got 3 times what you’ve claimed
                      d) Labour got 27% wasn’t it?

                      As you keep trying to defend crap behaviour in Parliament and dirty party politics. If only a million people understood your policies, eh.

                    • vto

                      Pete, is this like your uppityness yesterday over a war memorial protest which you later admitted to having done yourself in other days?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Some small corrections to Pete’s mea culpa:
                       
                      a) I’m not very good at defending Banks
                       
                      b) I drove United Future’s vote down in Dunedin North
                       
                      c) I think getting .06% of the party vote is great, especially given how rubbish we are
                       
                      d) I really, really hate Labour, but I’m not a Tory, honest.

                    • vto – I didn’t admit to a war memorial protest, I organised a local memorial event that had appropriate approvals, and similar was done on 60 other places. Quite different to a political protest.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      You don’t think child abuse is a political issue, Pete? I seem to recall it was when the law was changed to give children more protection from family violence a few years back. It was in all the papers, as I recall.

                    • In the context of ther NARK memorials it was not political. It was for remembrance of childen killed – some of the memorial was quite touching and emotional in Dunedin. People from three parties were present (as far as I know) but there was nothing political about it, there was collective respect and remembrance.

                    • McFlock

                      Another irregular verb created by petey:
                         
                      I am present at a moment of collective respect and remembrance.
                      You politicise a solemn memorial..
                      They desecrate a sacred site. 

          • OneTrack 6.1.1.1.2

            I don’t think they are capable of acting like sensible MPs. They are more focused on taking a scalp than being an effective opposition (by questioning government policies) and/or presenting themselves as a potential government-in-waiting.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2

          The fact that you have to spell this out to PG demonstrates yet again how far from political reality he is.

          • Pete George 6.1.1.2.1

            Yeah, ramping up the political mongrels was the first step in sidelining Shearer’s grand ideals.

            I take it you’e oblivious to how many of the voters outside the bubbles are fed up with crap attack politics. It should have sunk in to some when Labour promoted Greens support at their own expense. I can see that continuing, Labour don’t get it, Norman does.

            • Colonial Viper 6.1.1.2.1.1

              i’m pleased with how fast you are distancing yourself from UF and sucking up to the Greens.

              I take it you’e oblivious to how many of the voters outside the bubbles are fed up with crap attack politics.

              Oh I know very well where the score is at mate.

              • Yep, all that needs to happen is for the nice media to explain the great Labour policies to everyone and there’s a million votes.

                • OneTrack

                  Labour is so shambolic that even left-wing media like the Herald can’t put a positive spin on it. No wonder the greens are laughing.

      • Pascal's bookie 6.1.2

        You know nothing Jon Snow.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.1.3

        It made a farce of “debate” in Parliament.

        In some ways I agree with Krugman

        Think about it: you approach what is, in the end, a somewhat technical subject in a format in which no data can be presented, in which there’s no opportunity to check facts (…). So people react based on their prejudices.

        Which we see quite often here on the Standard when we have each side of the debate claiming that their team won. We need facts and figures, not debates on opinion.

        • Colonial Viper 6.1.3.1

          Apart from the small difficulty that facts and figures don’t win elections, and what is more important than the facts and figures is the human values and principles used to interpret them.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.1.3.1.1

            People still need people to be in possession of the facts/figures so that they can then apply human values/ethics to interpreting them which can’t be true in a debate. That’s what Krugman is getting at.

    • deuto 6.2

      That debate was extremely funny – couldn’t turn it off. Normally I am anti going the person etc but any respect I may have had for Banks (eg from what he did in much younger years) has long since evaporated. OK, so this is not really what debate in the House should be like, but I would remind anyone who gets on their high horse on this occasion to just go back and watch (I think) the first few days of debate in February when the other side did exactly the same to Shearer in relation to his Finland remarks in various debates as well as Question Time – it was not just the Pie Man.

      • Chris 6.2.1

        We also got hooked into this debate. It was absolutely hilarious.Aided and abetted by totally incompetent speaker/chairman whatever.The first one, not the second.Forgot names!John Banks trying to do the BROODING HEATHCLIFFE look and looking like an anorexic praying mantis was beyond funny. It didn’t help that he was not ALL OVER the Bill as he stated and could debate any part of it at will but had to sitand wait for one the Nats to rustle up some notes for him which he read out. Poorly I might add. As for the Nats crying to the speaker every two minutes about the Opposition rowdiness and oh no! rudeness well they have very short memories.The attack on Lianne Dalziel was reprehensible and should have been dealt with by the speaker.She had the moral courage to deal with her error in judgement and stand down,something that the brooding cabbagecliffe is unwilling to do. But the best bit was when Cabbage Man got up to get the speaker/chairman to chastise the baying rabble rousing Oppos because they were making a mockery of the sanctity of the Parliamentary system.Pot, kettle,black.

    • ianmac 6.3

      Wicked Micky! Mr Banks might have been wiser to have kept quiet or maybe gone for a cup of tea even at a discounted rate.
      By the way, paying the full amount of a hotel stay on credit card depends on just what the full amount should be.

      • deuto 6.3.1

        There is a long debate going on about the HKG hotel rates etc under the Resignationwatch: oopsie post.

        IMO the hotel discount issue is a tangent from the real issues relating to the Banks situation – ie his honesty, credibility etc and suitability to be a Minister of the Crown – but also (probably more important in the long run) Key’s stance on the whole situation.

        I was fascinated by last night’s Campbell Live report which focussed on Key supposed lack of knowledge of Dotcom until the day before the police raid took place – and the report’s linking (I mean raising questions about this) to Dotcom of Key and other Ministers in addition to Banks by way of diagram as well as narrative. It raised many questions which were left unaswered as neither Key or any of the Ministers, or reps of the other organisations would front on Campbell Live. Well worth a watch – http://www.3news.co.nz/Who-knew-what-about-Kim-Dotcom/tabid/817/articleID/252734/Default.aspx

        I suspect that this is likely to feature on Campbell Live again soon.

        • Treetop 6.3.1.1

          Everything has to now be scripted by those in the diagram shown by Campbell (excluding Dotcom and Power). Say the wrong thing and by association you may let the cat out of the bag.

          It is now going to be about protecting Key’s integrity. I think that Key will standown Banks after the weekend because of :

          1. Public opinion.
          2. Banks could lose it and let the cat out of the bag e.g. a possible connection between Key and Dotcom, no matter if even by chance.
          3. A problem with not disclosing something that may have compromised Bank’s selection when an Act candidate.

          Banks is more than an acquanitance with Dotcom. Banks is just about having a tantrum over paying the hotel bill and he is more restrained when it comes to other allegations. For the first time Banks has mentioned defamation were Mallard to mention the hotel bill when not in the house. See if Banks threatens defamation about other allegations as well.

          • deuto 6.3.1.1.1

            I also very much doubt the Key will be “able to hold the line” much longer. Banks looked and sounded pretty shaky in the House last night, and it crossed my mind that the tactics being used were to wear him down to the point that he lost the plot. But the big question is how much of a hold does he have over Key – eg what does Banks know that could really damage Key?
            Just hope Mallard does not do something silly, as he has some times in the past.

            • Te Reo Putake 6.3.1.1.1.1

              “eg what does Banks know that could really damage Key?”
               
              Pretty obvious, really. One of the $25k ‘anonymous’ donations is from Key.

              • Treetop

                What you say is possible about a 25k donation. My pick would be that Key and Dotcom have had a private chat and Banks was present. Campbell Live last night raised the 10 million that Dotcom qualified for immigration entry into NZ.

                How many have made the immigration 10 million entry into NZ and is this not a National Government initiative?

                I have not read the transcript of the teapot tape, there could be a clue there as Key did not want the content of the teapot tape to be known. Also may be the teapot tape was edited, Key said this about the ACC Pullar tape.

              • bad12

                The ‘other’ smoking gun lies in the attempt by Banks while still the Mayoral candidate to influence Maurice Williamson over the Dotcom land purchase,

                The notion that ‘influence’ is a saleable item within a large section of the National Party is now well entrenched,

                The real questions here in relation to the menage a trois Banks/Dotcom/Williamson are to be found in the whereabouts of the nearly 1 million dollar Banks mayoral campaign fund,

                In plain English,did Maurice Williamson recieve any payment from within the Banks mayoral fund,

                My suspicion is that should the Serious Fraud office get off of its backside and earn its pay they might just find a direct link between the bank account holding the mayoral campaign fund of John Banks and an account(s) operated by Maurice Williamson,

                There is no corruption in NZ,only because those paid to look for it refuse to do so…

              • felix

                “One of the $25k ‘anonymous’ donations is from Key.”

                Just the one? Didn’t know those came as singles.

                Pretty sure the PM wouldn’t split up a donation to help Banks cook the books though, that’d be unethical.

                Won’t have his name on it though. Probably not Aldgate or Whitechappel either.

        • ianmac 6.3.1.2

          Oops Deuto. I Missed your post here. Wrote about it below. Can’t understand why there is not more outrage in MSM.
          js at 13.1.1 adds another important point about SIS.

          • deuto 6.3.1.2.1

            No problem, Ianmac. I also raised the Campbell Live report on the Resignationwatch post as well as I suspect that this whole business is going to get even more messy in the next few days. Pandora’s box is slowly opening.

        • mickysavage 6.3.1.3

          Wow Deuto

          I just watched this for the first time and I await with anticipation the next installment in this fascinating series.

          Johndotkey? 

          • felix 6.3.1.3.1

            Weird, isn’t it?

            I was also struck by the revelation that Helensville constituents can’t take local issues to their local MP.

            How does that work for them?

          • deuto 6.3.1.3.2

            So do I, MS – await the next installment, that is.

            Last night’s Campbell Live was in some ways a “teaser”. So I was a bit disappointed tonight when I tuned in. (Hardly ever watch TV these days). But interesting that tonight, JC was not there. Perhaps he was in Coatsville? Lol. This is not going to go away.

            • mickysavage 6.3.1.3.2.1

              You can bet that Kimdotcom is really, really peeved that he was imprisoned and sold down the river after all of his magnificent generosity.  

              Could this be why the slithery one has been rabbiting on about Mike Williams visiting Kimmy whilst on remand? 

              • deuto

                Agreed – and why shouldn’t Dotcom be peeved? A strange fellow in some ways, but he really seems to have come here with a genuine intention of staying, giving to NZ etc. Haven’t followed his case closely, but my instincts suggest that the whole case against him is going to flop in terms of his being extradited etc. And yet again the NZ Police are going to be left with egg all over their faces. Not anti-police (worked in the justice sector) but amongst some (a small minority) there is a “strange” mentality that is rather disturbing to say the least.

              • vto

                Given Dot first dragged Cabbageman in by a donation teaser and that he has now written to Key to, in the same way, slowly drag him in by giving the media reasons to ask questions, I would have thought he has photos of him with one of his giant arms around Key at some occasion prior to the day before the raids, totally and completely contrary to what Key has said and filling in all the gaps in Campbell Live’s diagram.

                Dot is beavering away furiously.

                Pulling out all the stops to nail all those who shat on him before he gets dragged off to bananamerica.

                note – brilliant effort of Campbell live last night.

                • ianmac

                  I will drop a line to John Campbell. What happened after the program?

                  • felix

                    Can you please ask John to stop pretending his wall is a giant iPad with sound effects? It’s naff as hell.

                    Apart from that, great work.

                  • Aye and what happened tonight?  My expectations were peaking …

                    • Anne

                      Maybe Campbell had a long standing engagement or… maybe he is involved in some urgent investigative journalism somewhere in the Helensville electorate?

                  • ianmac

                    Have emailed to find out what happened. (Nxt minit?) Last time I wrote was re a programmed item on Rodney Hide that didn’t play on Campbell Live. Two days later Rodney was rolled. John did reply that time within 24 hours. Will let you know.

    • John72 6.4

      50 years ago I was taught by people from 4 different organisations “Lead by Example”.
      They preached this standard and demonstrated it. They were good leaders. Would it be reasonable to expect a standard like that from our politicians?
      Our politicians sought the position. They constantly seek admiration. They are lucky to be there. They are not doing us a favour. We are not priviledged to have them. They constantly have to justify their existance. Why are they there? Are they there to serve us or earn a large income. They do not need $500,000 (+ expenses). The only justification for that sort of money is “some else is getting more”. So many seem to have lost the plot. They are supposed to be there to serve the country. They wet their napkins, just like every one else, and will die just like everone else. If they really cared about you and me they would “Lead by Example”. Parliment has lost it’s credibility.

      • Uturn 6.4.1

        Consider it a reflection of the values of your neighbours: someone voted them in. No one in NZ politics looks at things without the various dark glasses of capitalism stapled to their heads. Any flavour you like, as long as it’s capitalist.

        • John72 6.4.1.1

          Perhaps this is why so many people did not vote in the last election. Was it just apathy?

          • Uturn 6.4.1.1.1

            Dunno why, nobody knows why, definitively. But not voting is a good thing, compared to setting up opposition to an idea you don’t like. When that happens, the idea you oppose defines the terms; you become reactionary within a paradigm. Bit like Unions: great idea, in the short term, as part of a wider strategy for societal change. But once you get unions perpetually operating within a capitalist environment, because the members accept capitalism as a natural law and vote in people to maintain that view, the force for change stalls and gets twisted into contradictory and counter productive forms. You get fantastic working conditions… within an unsustainable system based on profit accumulation.

            Not voting at least steps out of the co-dependant relationship. Apathy would be a poor motivation, because there is no impetus for the non-voting to find out what they should do next – a gross lack of strategy – and things could get chaotic. But at least they accidently step out of the silly cycle that screws them, buying some time for a chance at a wider perspective. Going by the current bunch on offer, it would be encouraging to see non-voters reach 40% next election – the system needs to collapse under the weight of it’s own self interest. Just the other day, David Cunliffe was redefining Socialism to fit a capitalist paradigm. No marks out of ten. Good for his career, bad for NZ.

        • Bored 6.4.1.2

          Have to agree that the dark glasses only come in capitalist shades. i really love it when things like Keynesian theory get described as socialist, and environmentalism gets tagged left wing. The propaganda is winning hands down, laughed watching Keiser this morning that more Americans (just) believe organised labour is responsible for the recent crash, than those who think the banks are responsible. All power to blind faith.

          • Uturn 6.4.1.2.1

            The beginning of David Cunliffe’s speech April 29th at New Lynn:

            “The Invisible Hand

            The Labour Party was traditionally a left-wing party. Before we debate the future of the Labour Party, we should define what the terms left and right-wing mean.

            Left-wing generally means community ownership and or control and/or responsibility.

            Right wing means individual ownership and/or control and/or responsibility. By modern standards, even the National party would have been a left-wing party until the 1990s. That’s because most New Zealanders accepted the idea that the government has not just a right, but also a duty to be there for them…”

            No, no, and no. Not in theory, not even “close enough”. This is a description of bourgeois socialism: socialism permanently stalled within capitialist parameters. It is not the Left at all. And as for National being “socialist” prior the 90’s: only if you think that the violently enforced stability of fuedalism was a good social model to try to recreate; and because the word social is the larger part of the word socialism.

            People will swallow it though. All he has to do is keep repeating this crap and we can look forward to the next generation of outraged oldies (my generation, the X slackers) who will wonder how, unlike the pious values of the boomers, we let our liberal values morph into ratbag offspring “ruining everything” and will attest that because we opposed everything within a reactionary paradigm, we are blameless. Someone let the neo-liberal dogs out, doesn’t matter who, now. Me, my generation, we’re letting them run free and continue to do so. Can’t get them back in the cage by shouting at them.

            • John72 6.4.1.2.1.1

              I would be a hypocrite to say that I understand every thing that was written, especially when I can not find some words in the Oxford Dictionary. However, no one seems to have answered the question “Would it be reasonable to expect a standard like that from our politicians?” Would it be reasonable to expect our politicians to Lead By Example. Who is going to set some moral standards for our youth. Is Corination Street a role model? No one is perfect but we must try. We either improve or slip back, we never remain static.

  7. ropata 7

    Gareth Morgan –

    House prices a cancer for the economy
    It is over-investment in housing and the lending largesse that underpinned the orgy of excess that led to the sub-prime crisis and widespread recession in the developed world… Seldom before have we seen a market get so distorted by lending and tax largesse that it has plunged whole economies into despair.
    The lending distortion sponsored by the Reserve Bank … and the tax break increases the effective return so of course compared to other investments this will make housing a more attractive alternative. So lubricated with the credit availability we all pile into the asset in unison and drive up its price.
    The point is of course though that this is not a demand that’s driven in any way by economic fundamentals such as the demand for shelter – it’s purely speculative and totally contrived by the regulatory and taxation framework.

    Not hard to find examples :
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/property/news/article.cfm?c_id=8&objectid=10803131

    • vto 7.1

      People must still have a lot of faith in the world of debt and money – good luck to them.

      Though good to see that people still have faith in tangible investments. Morgan is not correct to paint it entirely as due to tax etc rules. At least if investment money is used to pay for something that actually exists it tends to remain in existence and can be put to some sort of use in the event of meltdown. Whereas, putting investment money into paper – well, it’s just paper – burn baby burn.

      Oh, and this article caught my eye about foreign buyers driving up the cost of housing. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10803130 It is all happening again. Happened when Cullen refused to acknowledge it and now watch as some gumpty minister trots out and says there is no effect and don’t worry because we will never sell the Fiordland National Park.

    • DH 7.2

      This article here makes the blood boil….

      Foreign buyers fuel house boom

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/property/news/article.cfm?c_id=8&objectid=10803130

      The venal feeding off the corpse of NZ.

      (Ps, sorry about posting link again, didn’t notice vto had linked it)

      • ropata 7.2.1

        The new Kiwi investment model, buy up property in Auckland, choke off the supply of new housing, and flog it for foreign cash. Works great for the already wealthy

        • DH 7.2.1.1

          Aye, and Labour are conspicuous by their absence. There has to be a complete halt put on foreign ownership of residential housing. It’s turning into a social disaster and if something isn’t done about it soon it will be too late to undo the damage. Kiwis paying rent to foreign landlords is almost the final insult really, how much lower can this country go.

  8. dd 8

    I am now almost %100 certain the pete george is actually trying to ruin united futures reputation.

    Your doing a really good job at it Pete but I think it’s somewhat unrequired given that the head Pete has already removed any respect the party had by backing the selling on NZ.

  9. weka 9

    I just got a replacement Visa card (from the National Bank) as mine had reached its expiry date. It’s got a chip in and needs me to set up a PIN (I’ve never had a chipped credit card before). This also means that my credit card is by default set to allow me to withdraw cash from an ATM. I’ve always chosen to not have this feature and imagine that for many low income people it will be problematic.

    The National Bank tells me that the chip technology makes it impossible for them to disable the cash withdrawal feature, despite the fact that they can disable this for various accounts on my EFTPOS card. Does anyone know if that is true, or if the banks are simply choosing to have the feature as compulsory?

    • ianmac 9.1

      It would be daft to get cash for credit card withdrawl as interest is charged from that moment, unless the card has cash already loaded on. You are quite right to avoid that cash trap otherwise. The chip does give further protection they say. My BNZ one will throw up a comment that I had put on which bogus shopping online will not be able to replicate. I guess being able to have a pin on it allows you to check balances etc at a money machine. And when I leave the country I let the bank know where to, in case my card is stolen and on re entry to NZ I just check my balance by pin and this lets the bank know and that no further transactions should happen overseas. And so on. (I only book online with credit card, when I have the money to pay straight away by internet banking.)

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2

      Does anyone know if that is true, or if the banks are simply choosing to have the feature as compulsory?

      As such a feature would best be implemented at the account level and not the card level it’s obvious that the bank(s) is making it compulsory.

  10. Carol 10

    Unemployment is on the rise, but the percentage looking for work and the proportion of people in work also rose during the last quarter. There has been a rise in the amount of people in part time work, and people under-employed, while the amount in full time work dropped:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10803214

    The big losers are women, while men have been the winners in securing more work.

    Most of the growth in unemployment was among women, who had a jobless rate at 7.1 per cent, while jobs growth was primarily among men, with the employment rate rise half a percentage point to 70.2 per cent.

    It doesn’t say what the unemployment rate was previously for women…. or does this mean that there was a 7.1% rise in unemployment for women?

    Young people, Maori and Pacific people are also losing ground:

    Youth aged 15 to 24 not in employment, education or training (NEET) rose to 13.6 per cent in the quarter from 13.1 per cent in the December quarter.
    […]
    The rate of unemployed Pacific people rose to a record-high 16 per cent from 13.8 per cent in December, while Maori unemployment rose to 13.9 per cent from 13.4 per cent.

    • New Zealand is not in the same dire situation as Spain or Ireland and yet this National led government is following the sort of austerity programmes that should only be applied if we were. We do have opportunities and choices but the opportunities are not being grabbed and the good choices are not being made!
      http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/05/unemployment-rise-result-of-failing.html

    • bad12 10.2

      The unemployment figures hide a real train wreck don’t they, 1000 a month more unemployed since December and that takes NO account of those who have fled the National Governments gross economic mismanagement for Australia,

      At best National can by the rise in those working part time claim to be ‘sharing’ the employment around,perhaps also claim to be giving people wages equivalent to that of Australia by driving 100s of thousands of them across the ditch to seek a better life,

      It does not get any better for National,as they make more cuts to State sector employment the employment in the wider community continues to shrink in an ugly little downward spiral,

      There will not be an ‘export lead’ recovery as Europe falters and imposes yet another round of Austerity measures to try and make the beans add up in their economies,

      Nationals planned ‘zero’ budget will simply lead to even more unemployment and the gaping 1 billion dollar hole in the Governments income from taxation will grow by another 100 million dollars or 2,

      Anyone who thinks its ‘by accident’ is easily fooled,since its election in 2008 the National Government has set out on a deliberate planned demolition of parts of the New Zealand economy,and,if anyone thinks that National are about to build schools and hospitals with the proceeds of the sale of the assets it is currently in the process of stealing and selling should take the ‘wake up’ pill now,

      As far as i can see,the monies from the first tranche of asset ripoff sales will ‘have to’ be used in terms of today’s bean-counting to plug the ever growing hole in the Governments income from taxation…

    • Vicky32 10.3

      The big losers are women, while men have been the winners in securing more work.

      No surprises there then! :(

  11. Te Reo Putake 11

    Unemployment surges under the inspired leadership of John Key. Paula Bennett is nowhere to be seen, as she is busy trying to think of a way to spin this news that doesn’t make her look like she should be joining the dole queue herself for gross incompetence.

    Edit: Carol beat me to it!

  12. ianmac 13

    I thought there would have been much comment on MSM over Campbell Live TV3 raising the issue last night of Key’s unknowingness about Dotcom. Not a mention anywhere that I can find.
    For those who want to visit it about 2 minutes in @
    http://ondemand.tv3.co.nz/Campbell-Live-Wednesday-May-2-2012/tabid/119/articleID/6374/MCat/73/Default.aspx

      • js 13.1.1

        Yes he’s obviously on to something. He didn’t even mention the SIS (or whatever it is called these days) who would have known about the impending raid well in advance and would have briefed the PM as the minister in charge.

        He was getting very annoyed that MPs were not fronting about these serious concerns – yet again.

        • ianmac 13.1.1.1

          You are so right JS about the PM being the Head of SIS. How could Key have not know? He might have misunderstood the question, or silent because of security, or something to hide? But Mr Key was pretty clear about his unknowingness. Weird. Wonder if there is a follow up tonight?

          National Radio this morning noted McCulley’s unavailability but by giving Goff full rein, McCulley had to front up. It works. The more that Ministers don’t front for interviews, the more that Opposition parties party.

  13. Sam Hill 14

    Unemployment figures out today.

    Stats NZ says:

    “The unemployment rate rose to 6.7 percent in the March 2012 quarter, Statistics New Zealand said today. This is up from a revised figure of 6.4 percent last quarter. The labour force grew by 18,000, with 9,000 more people employed as well as 9,000 more people unemployed in the March 2012 quarter.”

    I found completely different stats using their own data. Excuse me if I post some stats here. The figures with the + and – are the total going from north to south so you don’t have to add it yourselves.

    Unemployed

    Northland 8.3% to 8.7% (6,500 to 6,900) +400
    Auckland 6.7% to 7.9% (51,100 to 60,700) +10,000
    Waikato 6.3% to 8.6% (13,300 to 17,700) + 14,400
    Bay of Plenty 8.3% to 8.5% (10,600 to 11,200) +15,000
    Gisborne/Hawke’s Bay 7.0% to 8.5% (7,200 to 9,500) +17,300
    Taranaki 3.8% to 4.8% (2,300 to 2,900) +17,600
    Manawatu – Wanganui 6.2% to 8.9% (7,700 to 10,900) +20,800
    Wellington 7.2% – 6.1% (21,100 to 17,200) +16,900
    Tasman/Nelson/Marlborough/West Coast 4.9% to 5.9% (5,000 to 6,100) +18,000
    Canterbury 5.0% to 5.5% (16,400 to 18,800) +20,400
    Otago 4.8% to 5.2% (6,400 to 6,700) + 20,700
    Southland 5.1% to 4.2% (3,000 to 2,700) +20,400

    20,400 total added unemployed

    Employed

    Northland 58.5% to 58.7% (72,000 to 72,200) +200
    Auckland 64.1% to 63.7% (713,400 to 709,300) – 3,900
    Waikato 64.5% to 62.6% (197,100 to 189,000) -12,000
    Bay of Plenty 57.6% to 60.1% (118,000 to 120,400) – 9,600
    Gisborne/Hawke’s Bay 61.4% to 63.7% (95,600 to 101,700) -3,500
    Taranaki 66.1% to 65.8% (58,400 to 58,100) – 3,800
    Manawatu – Wanganui 63.3% to 61.6% (115,800 to 112,500) – 7,100
    Wellington 67.2% to 66.2% (273,400 to 265,200) – 15,300
    Tasman/Nelson/Marlborough/West Coast 65.6% to 64.1% (98,500 to 97,100) – 16,700
    Canterbury 64.6% to 65.2% (309,700 to 325,600) – 800
    Otago 69.1% to 66.7% (128,600 to 121,800) – 7,600
    Southland 71.0% to 72.6% (56,600 to 58,000) – 6,200

    6,200 total less employed

    Are these stats supposed to be accurate, across region, sex, age and ethnicity, or are they just guessing?

    Sorry if there is something I should know here. But I couldn’t help but see obvious differences in what their press release claimed and the reality in the statistics sheets.

    • bad12 14.1

      Ah numbers numbers and yet more numbers,possibly these are the figures without then subtracting the (supposed) dramatic rise in part time employment from the number of full time unemployed,

      Its smoke and mirrors stuff,if ya can’t directly lie to the people,fudge the figures and stats in such a way that it confuses them,

      The laugh is that if we added in the numbers of those who have fled to Australia we would be looking at a real horror story…

    • ianmac 14.2

      You have done a lot of work there Sam. Thanks. The discrepancies are often argued in Question time White is Black according to Key. Maybe depends on Household Survey or Welfare figures. Dunno.

      • Sam Hill 14.2.1

        I just called Stats NZ and had a lengthy conversation. Enthralling.

        I just found out these ARE the real stats, they’re not seasonally adjusted.

        Real registered unemployment in 7.1%, not 6.7%.

        • Vicky32 14.2.1.1

          Real registered unemployment in 7.1%, not 6.7%.

          Oh isn’t that just lovely!

        • deuto 14.2.1.2

          Sam, I would also like to thank you for your hard work in following up on this in your posts above. Keep up the good work.

        • mickysavage 14.2.1.3

          Aye good stuff Sam and keep it up.  This Government has made an art of abusing statistics for political advantage.

    • Jackal 14.3

      Stats highlight growing bigotry

      Gerry Brownlee claimed in the House of Representatives today that employment has grown by 9000… but Statistics NZ’s latest Household Labour Force Survey report (PDF) shows that employment grew because of an increase in part-time employment, while full-time employment actually decreased by 3,000 over the latest quarter. This means more dependance on supplemental welfare support.

      The other main statistical change is that unemployment for woman has grown dramatically as well as for pacific people. National’s policies are clearly adversely and disproportionately affecting people who are not white and male. This indicates a chauvinistic, racist and myopic policy direction, which is ultimately detrimental for New Zealand.

      • Carol 14.3.1

        This indicates a chauvinistic, racist and myopic policy direction, which is ultimately detrimental for New Zealand.
        Indeed.

      • Jackal 14.3.2

        Sorry! That’s meant to be Steven Joyce, not Gerry Brownlee who made those claims. I always get those two confused.

    • rosy 14.4

      [ ]

  14. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 15

    Watched the GC last night. Now wondering if we need to be worried about the “brain drain”.

  15. aerobubble 16

    Woman caught in cross fire in Australian Mall as two rival gang member pull out guns.

    Sword wielding and chain saw wielding men fight over noise nuisance!

    Well when you have a million people there is going to be a growth in extreme stories out of Sydney.

    • Colonial Viper 16.1

      Did you mean a million people when you spoke of Sydney, or 4.6 million people?

  16. Panelists on Backbenches last night were asked their view on Maryan Street’s proposed euthanasia legisaltion.

    National MP Maggie Barry said she hadn’t seen what would be in the bill yet but she would definitely oppose it, She cited her experience:
    National Party profile: Her extensive community work includes being Patron of Hospice NZ

    She said that hospices and good palliative care meant that euthanasia wasn’t necessary. She also claimed that pain was not experienced by a patient if cared for.

    I think she’s wrong. I’ve seen close up very good palliative care in a hospice situation. One problem was that pain relief was often reactive. And it didn’t prevent severe discomfort, nor did it avoid the loss of dignity my mother dreaded.

    As good as they are there’s things a hospice can’t deal with adequately.

    • Descendant Of Smith 17.1

      Yep killing old people off certainly solves the reactive pain relief problem.

      • prism 17.1.1

        Better is allowing old people to decide for themselves when they want to die.

  17. prism 18

    It was interesting to see an old cutting from The Nelson Mail of 28 November 2002 about the National government deciding on part foreign ownership of AirNZ. In this case the corporate was Qantas angling to spend $550 million on a 22.5% stake. The decision actually did not need Parliament’s approval and the Opposition were mounting campaigns to scrap it with pressure from the public.

    In the item Peter Dunne said that Mr John Anderson, Oz Deputy Prime Minister had remarked, ‘that Qantas would always have the upper hand, as one Qantas director on Air NZ’s board would have to sign off every major decision’
    Mr Dunne said it was now clear that the proposed Qantas “takeover” was not designed to benefit the NZ consumer or the tazpayer-owned AirNZ. But AirNZ rejected Mr Dunne’s claims saying that Qantas would have at the most two votes..

    And so it goes on, Peter Dunne should be looking seriously today at proposals of sales to foreigners which will disadvantage us in the medium and long run. In the Qantas deal we had to remember that Aussies are for themselves first and foremost, they are allies but not always ones beneficial to us. We can’t go hawking everything important to us as we have done in the past, such as in dropping our tariffs to near nil to keep dairy access. We shouldn’t give up anything till forced to, and then the deal must be as good as we can make it. They’re hard butters out there.

  18. newsense 19

    Who in the Greens would you like to see as Ministers?

    I wouldn’t mind Norman (perhaps, probably, hmm, yeh ok), and so far Genter definitely!

    Not sure about anyone else at this stage…don’t know them well enough or they haven’t made Gerry Brownlee look like an blustering incompetent bully recently…

    Post your line ups here!

    • felix 19.1

      Definitely Turei, probably Hague, and after a bit more experience Walker.

      Off the top of the head.

    • ad 19.2

      I am sure this will put the squirts up the Labour caucus, but at say 15% I think they could expect:

      – R. Norman: Deputy PM, Minister of Agriculture and Forestry, Minister of Fisheries
      – J Genter: Minister of Transport, Min Auckland issues, Minister of Local Government
      – T Turei Minister of Maori Affairs, Min Treaty Negs, Assoc. Minister Health
      – Hague Minister of Health
      – D Clendon Assoc. Minister of Economic Devleopment
      – Hughes Assoc Minister of Transport
      – H. Walker Assoc. Minister Foreign Affairs and Trade
      – Graham Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Minister of Justice, Attourney General

      I am sure that leaves enough for the other parties.

      • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 19.2.1

        Should put the squits up everyone.

      • millsy 19.2.2

        I doubt that they would get those plum roles, but they would have a lot more hope of getting something decent out Shearer/anyone, than Clark.

  19. Carol 20

    Ha! Jonkey Todd, the Demon Butcher of Cheat Street! And he likes freeloading off the Queen, getting free food at her gigs.

    And beware TV3 ((or is it John Campbell specifically?), he doesn’t like been treated too critically!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10803329

    Under pressure for quick answers from a group of 10-year-olds today, John Key revealed that his dream job is as a butcher, he prefers TV1 to TV3, and that “a lot of free food” is a major perk of being Prime Minister.

    […] or an airline pilot.

    [..] he chose TVNZ over TV3 with an explanation that TV3 had treated him badly the previous night.

    So, did John Campbell really have JonKey’s feet to the fire with his questions last night about his lack of knowledge about Dotcom?

    And was it the airline pilot wannabee that flew the copter to the mansion? (Not likely, of course).

    • ianmac 20.1

      No John Campbell in person. No mention anywhere. What’s happened?

      • deuto 20.1.1

        I was watching in anticipation also – bit of discussion on this also up under 6.3.1. Seems like our paths have crossed today a bit like ships passing in the night. Cheers.

      • Carol 20.1.2

        But they still had a go at JK’s cycleway (“for Key and Country”)…. destroying the historical heritage and endangering lives for JK’s big idea.

  20. Carol 21

    Depressing:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10803263

    First-time and retail sharemarket investors are being targeted by a new government website set up to provide basic information about the process of partially privatising up to four of its energy companies and to sell further shares in Air New Zealand.

    While deliberately bland, in order to comply with Securities Act restrictions on what owners can say about companies they propose to sell shares in, the website combines the political and economic rationales for the sale with information on sharemarket investing, and on each of the companies.

  21. felix 22

    Watching Backbenches from last night. I’m genuinely concerned that Maggie Barrie might have a serious learning disability.

    Twyford is funny.

    • I thought Twyford seemed like a nice guy trying to be funny but it didn’t work for me. Maybe that was because John Banks grates at the best of times, so already overworn mimicking of his inanities came across as stale.

      And Maggie Barry was very disappointing refusing to back a bill she hasn’t seen yet. She’s wrong, Even doing their best hospices and palliative care don’t prevent pain, severe discomfort and terrible loss of dignity.

      • felix 22.1.1

        True, he could drop the Banks stuff. Wallace’s impressions on the other hand…

        But yeah, Maggie. There were a couple of times where she was presented with simple unassailable facts – not opinions – and she just stuck to her script like they didn’t exist.

        I see Campbell Live picked up the euthanasia debate last night too btw.

        • bad12 22.1.1.1

          “”There is a point when succeeding generations deserve to be disencumbered of some unproductive burdens” unquote,

          Bill Hayden in 1995 as the Australian Governor General speaking to the Australian College of P,hysicians on the Proposed Northern Territory euthanasia law,

          • McFlock 22.1.1.1.1

            Yes, let’s judge the validity of issues based on the words and actions of an extreme few.

            • bad12 22.1.1.1.1.1

              Bill Hayden is in good company our own Slippery Prime Minister is also a strong supporter of euthanasia,

              Why wouldn’t they be tho,according to the ism everything we do from the time ‘they’ start educating us is done to serve ‘the market’ the neo-liberal capitalist utopia,

              Hell I must dig out that web-page that had the couple from England featured on it,so depressed and shamed by their unemployment they took a hike over to that Swiss clinic for a spot of assisted suicide…

              • McFlock

                Yeah, it’s nice that it’s beginning to occur to you that when you make an assertion of fact you should provide a link or citation.
                   
                 

              • rosy

                That man (Hayden) does not represent me, in the same way I hope murderers of doctors who perform abortions do not represent you.

                John Key also supported the repeal of s59, as did I. Both Helen Clark and Jim Bolger are republicans. Because people might find common ground on one topic does not mean they’re twins in their thinking. Much as I dislike Key, I doubt he’d share Hayden’s view.

                And yes, I remember well the story of the unemployed who took their own lives. The cause, not the means, is the absolute tragedy.

                • bad12

                  You say they don’t represent you,but,in effect they do,you like I have probably been opposed to the neo-liberal capitalist ism since Sir(spit)Roger Douglas shoved it down all our throats a couple of decades ago,

                  You along with numerous other may support euthanasia for various reasons(pain suffering dying with dignity etc)but I see in the support from the hierarchy of the neo-liberal ism for euthanasia a far more robust version of euthanasia and reasons of an entirely different nature (perhaps) for their support of such…

                  • McFlock

                    So your position is represented by people who murder doctors, therefore your anti-abortion stance is completely wrong in every possible iteration.
                     

                    • Vicky32

                      So your position is represented by people who murder doctors, therefore your anti-abortion stance is completely wrong in every possible iteration.

                      As he didn’t say that, your comment is just an attempt to discredit him. Shame on you!

                    • McFlock

                      If bad12 can say that the planned euthanasia bill in NZ is bad because of a single sentence said by an Australian G-G 15 or 20 years ago, then bad12’s position on abortion is bad because of more recent murders.

                      I have an urge to say something about casting stones…

                    • rosy

                      No Vicky32, Bad12 said Hayden’s view about popping off old people because they cost too much represents my view of having a right to decide my end of life choices (and other people should have that right as well).

                      The equivalent with the abortion debate is that someone who believes abortion is killing an unborn child is represented by a person who murders doctors because they perform abortions. You state that Bad12’s position was not stated as this, which is exactly what Mcflock and I were saying (if indeed that is Bad12’s position).

        • McFlock 22.1.1.2

          Haven’t seen much of the msm lately, but it seems to me that nats (getting their lead from the Obamacare tripe) will be wanting to scare older people with the “death panel” meme.
              
          But it might be too subtle for them to pick up competently ;)

  22. joe90 23

    For fellow bibliophiles, a fascinating article from 2008 about the preservation of the earliest known illustrated Christian manuscripts, the Ethiopian Garima Gospels.

  23. freedom 24

    banners made, next move, get to Wellington

    we will see all who can get there at Te Papa 10 am tomorrow

  24. Colonial Viper 25

    Who votes in America?

    http://www.takepart.com/article/2012/04/30/who-actually-votes-america-infographic

    Not poor people, not the unemployed, not the young.

  25. Shaz 26

    Counting chicks before the eggs are hatched.
    Govt has today launched the information on the share sales that will take place if the MOMA bill is passed.

    https://www.governmentshareoffers.govt.nz/

    Can you interpret the intent of the front page? It would appear to provide security from overseas people accessing the information but with additional restrictions on people from the US.
    You can check out and compare the investment options to repurchase resources you already own and sign up for newsletters to make this easier ;-0.

    The slippery ones will no doubt say that the hundreds of thousands who sign up for newsletters represents a good selection of the NZ population interested in investing. Halle bleeding lujah!

  26. ianmac 27

    I sometimes respond to the Avaaz website petitions when I agree with them. It puts up petitions about democracy, world ocean fishing, and so on. Tonight they sent this:

    Right now, the Avaaz website is under massive attack. An expert is telling us that an attack this large is likely coming from a government or large corporation, with massive, simultaneous and sophisticated assaults from across the world to take down our site.

    Wonder if it is the big powerful country getting control of the internet?

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