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Open mike 08/01/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 8th, 2013 - 156 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

156 comments on “Open mike 08/01/2013”

  1. Jenny 1

    In his post, 2013 – the policy year. IRISHBILL, in what I thought was a generous and non sectarian gesture, befitting the season, asked Standardnistas of all parties, (or none) to put forward policy suggestions. IRISH suggested, as being a resource for the LECs, that this could also be a resource for other smaller parties.

    IRISH wrote:

    With this in mind I’d like to suggest that over the next few months we have those discussions and perhaps even provide a manifesto page on the site where generally agreed policies can be placed for LECs to use as a resource to inform remits.

    I thought I would put forward my policy suggestion to combat climate change for further discussion. Hopefully, if people think it is a good idea, to be forwarded to the possible manifesto page to be created; My policy suggestion: A complete ban on coal exports.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/2013-the-policy-year/comment-page-1/#comment-569735

    As New Zealand only produces 0.2% of the world’s greenhouse gas emissions. Our biggest contribution to stopping climate change would be for New Zealand to set an example that others could look too, to follow. If New Zealand put a ban on all coal exports, (and imports) our closest neighbor and closest international friend, Australia, (which is the biggest coal exporter in the world), would almost be guaranteed to follow.

    Colonial Viper asked me; “Why would this be?”

    I thought this might answer Colonial Viper’s question:

    NSW told to prepare for the worst

    …..officials warn residents to prepare for what could be the worst fire danger day in New South Wales’ history on Tuesday.

    A total fire ban will be in place across NSW on Tuesday with temperatures in the state’s far west predicted to hit 45C, while the mercury is forecast to climb to 43C in Sydney — the third highest on record.

    NSW Premier Barry O’Farrell on Monday made an emphatic appeal to all state residents to be fully prepared for the worst.

    “Tomorrow is not just going to be in the 40s, it will perhaps be the worst fire danger the state has ever faced,” he said.

    “Do what emergency services tell you, particular the rural fire service. Act early.

    “Don’t just think, ‘Tomorrow is another bush fire danger day, tomorrow is another summer’s day’. Tomorrow is going to be the worst fire danger day in parts of this state we’ve ever experienced in history.”

    http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Australias_Hobart_experiences_hottest_day_999.html

    Our toady MSM barely mentions it. Our gutless politicians don’t mention it at all. And so, I excuse CV for not noticing it.

    Australia going through it’s worst heat wave ever.

    WEATHER forecasters are predicting the nation will experience its hottest ever day early in the week, the average national temperature set to climb above 40C.

    Within reach is the current record of 40.17 degrees, set on December 21, 1972.

    Heat records have tumbled across the country, including yesterday’s highest ever recorded temperature in Hobart (41.3C) and Thursday’s 48.2C scorcher in the Nullarbor border town of Eucla.

    To give you an example of what that means;

    - 50 degrees is the recommended top temperature for the hot tap in your house. Imagine that, and then you will know why Australians will be NZ’s first wave of Climate Change refugees.

    In my opinion as well as putting a ban on all coal exports this could be accompanied by a ban on all Australian immigrants until Australia does the same.

    I think that might get the message across.

    What do you think?

    • bad12 1.1

      I think wild-fires have been raging across Australia for millions of years, some of the native trees have evolved in such a way as to require fire to release their seeds so as to be able to regenerate,

      i also think that the Australian temperature records have suffered so much ‘historic rounding’ in their collection over decades that they are unreliable,

      To attempt to link Australian wild-fires to climate change then seems to me to be rather spurious…

      • One Tāne Viper 1.1.1

        That says something about you, and nothing else whatsoever.

        • bad12 1.1.1.1

          Really, can’t come up with FACTS, attack the commentor, what does it say about me buckwheat…

          • One Tāne Viper 1.1.1.1.1

            It says that you are clutching at any imagined comfort blankie you can. Oh, and “historic rounding” – citation needed.

          • One Tāne Viper 1.1.1.1.2

            PS: “Buckwheat” – keep your racist crap to yourself.

      • Binders full of viper- women 1.1.2

        +1

      • mike e 1.1.3

        Sad 12 the past winter drought and wild fires in most of the Australian out back are the worst in history!!
        The result is that the build up of heat in central Australia is forcing the colder wetter weather to form over NZ!
        Get your facts right sad12!

        • bad12 1.1.3.1

          Got any proof of your wee claims there buck-wheat,like a link to some science that says that that New Zealands weather is on average colder and wetter this summer???,

          Funnily enough, on RadioNZ National news this morning the Australians were saying that the HIGH rainfalls this winter have grown (a), more fuel in forests for fires to consume, and (b) the same has made grass growth more prevalent, summer having dried this excess of grass out so as to make it even more likely of igniting in lightening strikes,

          Best you cite us some science for your assertion of the ‘winter drought’ as well…

      • Anne 1.1.4

        To attempt to link Australian wild-fires to climate change then seems to me to be rather spurious…

        Climate Change is causing these things to happen more frequently and with a greater intensity than before. Witness the devastating storms that are occurring… one in one hundred year storms that are now occurring more and more frequently. The general rise in the world temperatures are causing extreme weather patterns to develop, and the intense heat-wave currently affecting large parts of Australia is a good example. In other words, the unprecedented extent of the wild fires, rather than the wild fires themselves, are the inevitable result of C.C.

        • bad12 1.1.4.1

          More likely, the awareness of climate change is making us take more notice of ‘these things’,

          Have you got a link to the science that says Australian wild fires are happening more frequently or are more intense, history would tell us that during European occupancy of Australia such fires in the 1800′s burned millions of hectares and ash and smoke from them were evidenced in New Zealand,

          Please provide a link to these 1 in 100 year storms that are occurring more frequently, the recent so called super storm that recently struck New York was just that, the last one of such magnitude to hit New York was 100 or so years ago….

          • aerobubble 1.1.4.1.1

            I believe that any reasonable person would admit they cannot know everything, and that they, due to years of experience, will have come to understand that sometimes once the symptoms are upon us the disease is unstoppable. When the disease can cause havoc of global proportions, and many commentators (worthy) say the disease is upon us, the symptoms are all around. It strikes me that anyone who would consciously plan to undermine the risk, as not even plausible, to be rank stupidity. Sure nothing says you cannot say the evidence, the symptons, the loss of north arctic sea ice, the extended storm seasons in N.America, that strong more damaging storms (on the back of sea level rise), aren’t evident. But to then use your own ignorance, argue from ignorance, that the risk is just causing more people to notice. Surely not an argument, for example, how many have been told about sun damaged skin to check and so bring a cancer to their doctors attention. It is so common practice that when we see risk we will as a collective look for the signs, this is not evidence either way, this is just human behavior. So your blather, your ignorance, you false thinking, is all bunkum.

            • Anne 1.1.4.1.1.1

              Thanks aero… I couldn’t be bothered. There’s so much reputable evidence out there… let him look it up for him/herself. But he/she presumably won’t because he/she has decided to take a fixed stand based on… deniability? Who knows.

              • bad12

                So you make assertions without being able to provide a scrap of evidence, such a pathetic means of debate is unworthy of this web-site…

                • Anne

                  Since you seem incapable of checking it out for yourself (like most grown-u are happy to do) here is something to help you on your way. Took me a few minutes to find:

                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/feb/08/global-warming-weather-science

                  Google climate change/australian bush fires and you will find plenty more where that came from.

                  • Anne

                    Edit function gone.

                  • bad12

                    Snigger, i am struck, (with laughter at you), by the first line of the news article you link to,(a real piece of scientific data),

                    ”Scientists are RELUCTANT to link individual weather events to ‘climate change”, unquote,

                    I agree with the scientists, the current ‘record heatwave’ being experienced in parts of New South wales is exactly that, an individual weather event,

                    Should such ‘record heat waves’ continue every summer over a multi-decadal period they would then fit the definition of ‘climate change’…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      ostrich12

                    • bad12

                      Snigger CC’s little victim, milked that one for all it was worth…

                    • Rhinoviper

                      Yes, every individual event is insignificant in itself. The real point is the frequency of those individual events in a decade or a few decades.

                      all the time, always has and always will

                      OK, let’s use an analogy. Cars stop and go all the time, so suppose that climate is changing, so a change is something we can adapt to, just like a car stopping, right? Now suppose that you apply the brakes and the car slows to a stop. That’s fine, right? OK, now run your car into a wall. That’s stopping it too, but hang on, that way of stopping it is lethal.

                      Given millennia, nature might adapt. Maybe, but millions of years might be easier. Given decades, can civilisation adapt? Ah, well then…

                      Can the economy adapt?

                      Ummm….

                    • Colonial Viper

                      froginthepot12

                    • bad12

                      Rhinoviper, climate changes all the time and civilizations have come and gone, those are 2 repeating themes of both ecological and human history,

                      I dare say tho that the human race having survived ice-ages before will survive albeit in a much reduced form than at present,

                      Economy???, disaster of any sort is the great social leveler, what use is there for millions of dollars of paper money if civilization is reduced to the level of hunter gatherer once more…

                  • bad12

                    Pssst, scroll down the page a bit, i provide a link to a NASA satellite photo of wild fires burning in Western Australia in November 2012, not a heatwave in sight…

                • Pascal's bookie

                  So you make assertions without being able to provide a scrap of evidence, such a pathetic means of debate is unworthy of this web-site…

                  Paging your badself:

                  http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07012013/comment-page-1/#comment-570950

            • bad12 1.1.4.1.1.2

              BLAH, Blah,Blah, another assertion, what is this blather,ignorance, false thinking, and bunkum you accuse me of,

              Worst wild-fires ever, doubt it, as i pointed out above there have been wild fires during European occupancy of Australia that have burned millions of hectares and smoke and ash from these fires has been evident in New Zealand,

              Wild fires in Australia have happened yearly, they are not a symptom of climate change…

              • One Tāne Viper

                they are not a symptom of climate change…

                How about the increasing temperatures that exacerbate the fire risk, and the consequent increased incidence and severity of wildfires?

                Perhaps you need a pacifier to go with your blankie.

                • Rogue Trooper

                  just like Clockwork
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1XqbopXH5M
                  Orange Crushed

                • bad12

                  Please provide the proof of ”the increased severity and propensity for such wildfires”,

                  The current fires burning in Tasmania at the moment are hardly severe in terms of previous fires,

                  One of those previous fires, from memory in the 1960′s, burned a far greater area of Tasmania than the present, killed 60 odd people and even burned parts of the States capital Hobart,

                  Sorry to aquaint you with an inconvenient truth in your abysmal attempts to link Australian wildfires with ‘climate change,

                  Your continued use of 4 year old’s language such as ‘blankie’ gives me an indication of your intelligence level, perhaps you should stick to debating with children at kindergarten, the other little kiddies with under-developed brains seem more your level…

                  • One Tāne Viper

                    Wikipedia lists 44 major bush fires since 1851. Nineteen of them occurred in the last decade.

                    PS: I didn’t make the link you allege, I merely noted that increased temperatures increase fire risk. Keep clutching that straw.

          • Colonial Viper 1.1.4.1.2

            If you’re curious, feel free to provide evidence that the current record heatewave situation represents no change to the 1800′s.

          • Colonial Weka 1.1.4.1.3

            “Have you got a link to the science that says Australian wild fires are happening more frequently or are more intense, history would tell us that during European occupancy of Australia such fires in the 1800′s burned millions of hectares and ash and smoke from them were evidenced in New Zealand,”

            Well, quite. Because the Europeans burnt the bush to ‘create’ farmland (as they also did in NZ). The 1800s is not a good time period to use as a comparison.

            • bad12 1.1.4.1.3.1

              Clearing bush for farmland isn’t a wildfire, although i could imagine more than the odd bit of bush clearance got away on them,

              1800,s, 1900′s it makes no difference, the areas that are currently burning, parts of Tasmania, and New South Wales are in fact the area of the highest rate of wildfires in e a Australia over a multi century time frame,

              Here have a read of the record,

              the Google= History of Australian wildfires,

              http://www.home,iprimus.com.au/foo7/fire.html

          • Oscar 1.1.4.1.4

            Actually, more like 70 years ago. There was a double storm system to hit in 1934 that was bigger than Sandy.

        • Populuxe1 1.1.4.2

          Crap. Biology 101 – the Eucalyptus tree and many other species evolved to take advantage of regular seasonal bush fires to spread their seeds. That’s why Eucalypts are full of volatile oils and why other Australian plants have seeds that only germinate after being baked. The Koori new this, which is why they periodically instigated burn-offs of their own. The problem came about post colonisation and was aggravated by the environmental movement’s protection of wilderness areas and the prevention of burn offs. The massive fires we now see are a direct result of that rather than climate change – though of course climate change is happening and may well exacerbate matters in the future.

    • Colonial Viper 1.2

      A record heatwave and fires might help convince the Australian government to give up billions in coal exports…not what we do with the piddly amounts we export. If NZ gives up exporting coal today the Australian producers will take up the slack tomorrow.

      • Colonial Weka 1.2.1

        We should give up coal exports because we will need some of the coal for essential transition processes, and because it’s the right thing to do. The latter is more than symbolic. It demonstrates that we understand that CC is a global problem that affects all of life and that all humans must act in whatever ways they can. It’s about solidarity with the world and with other nations that will face harder futures than us in giving up fossil fuels.

        • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1

          We should give up coal exports because we will need some of the coal for essential transition processes, and because it’s the right thing to do.

          This I can get onboard with. And the same rationale goes for our offshore oil and gas as well.

          • aerobubble 1.2.1.1.1

            The whole problem is we dug up trapped compounds and unabashedly burnt them. Now to get off the crack we have to fract the last drops oil, gas, and mine the last coal to transition to back to where we should have been had we not gone on our addiction to growth and profits without thinking of limits and consequences. Its like that mother in America, a gun whore, whose mentally hamstrung son killed her and then went on a wild murderous rampage in a school. We consent our own destruction by accepting banality as reasonable.
            We dug up hydrocarbons on mass and dumped them into the biosphere, how could that not have consequences!!!

    • Bill 1.3

      Yup. Ban coal exports/imports and all but whatever might be considered to be the most essential mining (and I’m thinking of a very high bar to determine that…probably including disbarring any economic argument from the decision)

      Immediately legislate for car occupancy rates – issuing instant and punative fines to people driving without passengers for no compelling reason.

      Immediately legislate that any new cars coming into the country must have carbon emissions of below 100g per km.

      Immediately halt any non-essential lighting and heating of public places/spaces.

      And shut down the gas fired power stations. I know they are needed for peak load times. But that’ll only remain a problem until we alter our consumption habits…which shouldn’t take long when the alternative is brown or black outs for us all for as long as we persist in pulling extra electicity at the same time every day.

      • Colonial Weka 1.3.1

        “Immediately legislate for car occupancy rates – issuing instant and punative fines to people driving without passengers for no compelling reason.”

        How would that work? And wouldn’t my two trips to town a week with an empty car trump someone’s daily trips to town with one passenger?

    • Murray Olsen 1.4

      1. Australia is seen as the last hope for many unemployed Kiwis.
      2. They hardly notice us, let alone how much coal we export.
      3. An immigrant war with Australia is the last thing we need.

      Banning coal exports may be a good idea, but not because Australia would follow. The minerals sector has their government by the balls and they’d thank us for the increased market share.

      • Jenny 1.4.1

        They hardly notice us, let alone how much coal we export…….

        ……..The minerals sector has their government by the balls and they’d thank us for the increased market share.

        Murray Olsen

        Sorry to be the one to point it out, but I think you just might have a little bit of a dysfunctional logic thing going on here.

        Can do better. I award you a D+ for effort.

        Thank you for your contribution.

        Please try again.

        • Colonial Viper 1.4.1.1

          You can’t seriously be criticising others for dysfunctional logic.

          What Murray seemed to be saying was that us stopping coal exports would simply result in some minor benefits for the Australian coal industry.

          Ceding market share to the Australians is not really going to demotivate them is it Jenny – that’s your dysfunctional logic.

          • Jenny 1.4.1.1.1

            Ceding market share to the Australians is not really going to demotivate them is it Jenny – that’s your dysfunctional logic.

            Colonial Viper

            I think we are talking about opinion here. My opinion is that a world first complete ban on coal exports will set an example and a bench mark for governments around the world to emulate.

            Your opinion is that it will encourage other countries to fill the gap in the market left by New Zealand’s exit.

            I might add that it has always been your opinion over many discussions on many threads of this site, that we should do nothing about climate change.

            For this I have termed you a Climate Change Apologist.

            No matter what the argument is you will always argue for doing nothing.

            Don’t deny it, I don’t want to have to drag up all your CCA dreck.

    • tc 2.1

      How much is she paying for the dish washing and floor cleaning ? Dunno but it is chch where alot of the able and smart have departed and public transport to/from is a factor.

      Approaching a polytech for graduates is fine if they’ve done a diploma in cleaning and are looking for their first leg up into the world of low paid jobs in franchises.

    • Colonial Viper 2.2

      Yeah this kind of thing can be a problem. It often stems from youth who have left school and had an extended time unemployed without the benefit of immediate work experience with good role models. Or have been long term unemployed and simply deconditioned to work discipline. Being a bakery I also suspect that the hours of work may have been fairly extreme. Not that many people like 4:30am starts etc. However, advertising overseas to fill these positions seems a bit nuts. It did say the positions were above minimum wage.

    • karol 2.3

      On the evidence I’ve seen in the past, and given the current requirements for beneficiaries to be constantly looking for work, I’d expect the following:

      * that some people would be responding to job ads who are unemployable for various reasons – such as having anti-social behaviour patterns; being unable to physically or mentally apply themselves to a job for a full day and/or week, etc.

      * I’d also expect that some people will take any job going, especially if it was offering wages above the minimum.

      So Ms McPherson got some of the unemployable, or marginally employable applying, but what about those that are capable and want any work going? Did she just conveniently forget to mention them? Is there something about McPherson, her job or her workplace that puts keen workers off? Or does she just want to recruit from overseas and is looking for an excuse not to employ locals?

      Also, if WINZ stopped pressuring people who are unemployable, or incapable of working a full day/shift to job-seek, maybe Ms McPherson’s job of recruitment would be a lot easier.

      • AsleepWhileWorking 2.3.1

        Great points Karol.

        I dislike her feigned helplessness because:

        - Business is about solving problems, not bitching to the media when things don’t go your way. Your business, your problem. Offer them free leftovers at the end of each day and you might pick up some savvy family looking to save $$$.

        - If you can’t handle something, the beauty of a business is that you can hire someone else to do it on your behalf. Are we meant to believe there are no recruitment agencies in her area?

        - So her answer is to look OVERSEAS? Duh. The vetting process and cost is likely to be even more unmanageable.

        This is nothing more that a business owner who has taken on too much and prefers to spend her time whining rather than fixing things OR (more likely) the opening shot for the year of some more right wing spin meant to rark up the masses into more bene bashing for 2013.

        • Colonial Weka 2.3.1.1

          Yeah, how many overseas people are going to want to shift to Chch of all places, where there is a housing shortage and high levels of stress across the population, for $14/hr?

          She also doesn’t say if she is offering full time, regular hours jobs (an issue for any WINZ beneficiary because of the abatement process).

          • Fortran 2.3.1.1.1

            CW

            If you were to publicise this internationally you would get many many replies from people who will do anything to get away from their own environment into New Zealand, and will take any wages to start.

            • mike e 2.3.1.1.1.1

              Fartrain even henry ford knew the value of higher wages !

            • Colonial Weka 2.3.1.1.1.2

              What kind of visa will they have Fortran?

              • David C

                She would be swamped with overseas applicants just as the cantabury farmers hire dairy labourers from overseas. Kiwis are lazy and entitled.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Cheap foreign labour for higher capitalist profits

                  Kiwis are lazy and entitled.

                  It appears that your thinking is lazy and entitled, shit head.

                  • McFlock

                    agreed. Lazy and entitled employers, too.

                    • David C

                      Yeah lazy employers. They should be doing the work for the employees and paying them. Imagine the cheek of a business owner who actually wants to find someone who wants to work!

                    • Populuxe1

                      David C, if you can’t afford to pay your employees properly, you probably shouldn’t be in business in the first place.

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      David C, here is a list of bakeries in Christchurch who aren’t blaming a cherry-picked sample of job-seekers for staff shortages.

                      Are your opinions always this feeble?

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      Speaking of the employer, perhaps this one comes across as a toxic right wing shill or something, the sort of boss who would rather run right wing attack lines in the media rather than fix her staff shortage.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  lol, when ‘cantabury farmers’ start paying for the water they use, I’ll take any claims about ‘entitlement’ a bit more seriously.

                  • The Al1en

                    “Imagine the cheek of a business owner who actually wants to find someone who wants to work!”

                    Imagine the cheek of an employee wanting a fair days pay for a fair days work before they do!

                    Entitlement indeed! ;)

                • Populuxe1

                  No, Kiwis live in an OECD country and expect competitive, commensurate wages, not serfdom

                  • David C

                    $600 a week for an unskilled job is sefdom?

                    entitled indeed.

                    • David C

                      throw an r into that sefdom willya…. why no edit?

                    • Colonial Viper

                      “Unskilled” but absolutely critical job…your food site gets a bad hygiene rating you’ll get closed down for a week to sort it out.

                      entitled indeed.

                      Don’t be a consistent shit head, $600 is barely a living wage and that’s for full time work that I presume starts from very early in the morning for a bakery.

                    • David C

                      and that is exactly the attitude you ‘tards promote isnt it… why would anyone be bothered to get out of bed before 11.00 am for a mere $600 a week! FFS.

                      Bakery work is awesome…finish early arvo and go hunting or to the beach.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      $600/week is not a living wage shit head

                      And its not an 11am start in a bakery its 4:00am or 5am, typically

                    • McFlock

                      Major difference between “before 11″ and “before 4″.

                      And you’re not factoring in chch accommodation costs, either.

                    • McFlock

                      back when I was working nights, it was relaxing to pop by a particular cafe/bakery at 6am and have b&e or pancakes before heading to bed. Only place open at that time, except the 24dairy of doom… :)

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      ‘It’s Doom alone that counts :)

                    • David C

                      $600 pre tax is about $510 after tax? fucking site better than $170 on the dole.

                      But hey..yes you do need to actually want to work and get out of bed to better yourself.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      $510 in hand is not a living wage. I guess you are saying however that serfs should be grateful for crumbs and drippings.

                    • David C

                      So $510 is not a living wage huh?
                      A mate of mine is living in ChCh at the mo for $200 a week full board.
                      So that is food and shelter taken care of.
                      $310 a week for transport ( a bike!) and clothes isnt bad is it?

                      Entitled Leftard Fuckhead.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “$600 pre tax is about $510 after tax? fucking site better than $170 on the dole.

                      But hey..yes you do need to actually want to work and get out of bed to better yourself.”

                      I think you will find that there are very few people on the dole in Chch receiving only $170/wk. Most will have accommodation supplement on top of that. Many people on the dole also have part-time, cash in hand jobs of various kinds, or use their time to mitigate the low income in other ways. If we’re talking about a 20 year old with no dependants who is fit and healthy, then yes the dole can be more attractive than an insecure, deadend, just above minimum wage job that’s structured to go no-where. The longer someone is on the dole, the harder it is to survive, but in the short and medium term, it’s possible.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      A mate of mine is living in ChCh at the mo for $200 a week full board.
                      So that is food and shelter taken care of.

                      not everyone wants to live with their grandma, shit head.

                    • David C

                      My mate dont live whith his grandma either you charmer CV… he is a tradesman who likes to be able to feed his family so he works in ChCh rather than here…
                      Tho I fail to see why the tax paying NZers should subsidise someones life style choices… if your Gran can offer you a room near a basic job then you must move in … suck it up.

                      Colonial Weka…Yes you reinforce my point beautifully. The dole and subsidies are far too high when there are jobs availible. Why are we paying people so much to be lazy?

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      to be lazy

                      What of the 80,000-ish extra unemployed since 2008? Do you hate them too, or are you just feeble-minded?

                    • felixviper

                      The dole isn’t generous, David. It’s just that the jobs you’re comparing it to are really shit.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      David, if your mate is a tradesman and only earning the pittance you claim he does, then I have a suggestion. Get your mate to join a union. Clearly your advice isn’t working out for him financially.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “Colonial Weka…Yes you reinforce my point beautifully. The dole and subsidies are far too high when there are jobs availible. Why are we paying people so much to be lazy?”

                      We’re not. We are paying people to be the sacrificial goats in a society that prefers to run an economy with an unemployment rate instead of full employment. You’ve also missed the bit about needing to be young and fit and healthy with no dependents (or debt or other financial commitments) in order for the dole to be attractive for a period of time.

                      Why should someone take a job with shit opportunity, conditions and wage, when they have another choice? Oh, that’s right, in your head, people should be forced into situations that make their lives worse. Like someone already said, serfdom.

                      The only time we get to talk about generic laziness in the unemployed is when we have more jobs than jobless. We haven’t had that since the 70s.

                      btw, you do realise that if all the people you call lazy were to get a job, your mate would be unemployed. Think about it.

                    • David C

                      well where to start here….

                      My mate…a fridgie/sparkie bills around $8k a trip down south. $30K/yr wtf?
                      CV and I were having some banter about what constitutes a living wage…I objected to the fact that he cant run his Aston on a mere $510 a week.

                      felix…having a shit job is a really great way of maybe getting a not so shit job…its always easier to get a job if you already have one and want to better your position. People respect that drive.

                      Te Reo Putake..a Union? you are just taking the piss now arent you :-)

                      Colonial Weka. How is a job in a bakery poor conditions or no opportunity or bad wages. ? Huh? explain.

                      and no if every other person in NZ got employed my mate would be busier as he is in a support industry as am I. Someone comming off the dole isnt going to take the job of a trademan with 20 years experience.

                      Joe90, I agree small bakery hours suck. But there are usually free pies ;-)

                    • North

                      David C…….an imperious wahanui…….bitterly holding on to his perennial “entitlement” to engage the ideological construct that poverty is just fine……for the unskilled. Poverty ? Bah ! What have they done not to deserve it ?

                      Get a life you ugly fool.

                    • David C

                      North…care you make a comment that actually says something meaningful?

                      But if your saying that the unskilled deserve to be poor then yes I agree.

                      Study, train , upskill in some way to better yourself but if you sit on the couch and wail that the world owes you a living (as commenters on here suggested you should do) I will fight tooth and nail that my taxes dont suppport you.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “Colonial Weka. How is a job in a bakery poor conditions or no opportunity or bad wages. ? Huh? explain.”

                      I’m guessing that she wasn’t offering a 40hr a week, permanent job, with increasing wages over time, and things like sick and holiday pay. As a tradie, you probably don’t realise how poor employment contracts for those on or near minimum wage can be now. If she is offering casual hours or part time work, anyone on the dole is going to get hit by the abatement process. That means that week by week they don’t know what their income is going to be, and some weeks it won’t be enough to live on.

                    • felixviper

                      “having a shit job is a really great way of maybe getting a not so shit job”

                      Yeah that can still be true at an individual level for some people, but you’re ignoring the big picture. In the new low wage economy, increasingly these jobs aren’t for kids ‘working their way up from the mailroom’. We’re talking about near-minimum wage jobs for life.

                      And for a huge sector of society there’s no job security any more. Everyone’s a ‘contractor’ when it comes to holidays and acc and health and safety, but mysteriously they’re suddenly employees when it comes to where, when, how and what you do. And you can be fired anytime for no reason at all – or rather for no fault of your own.

                      You’re living in the past if you think working in a franchise is a step on the ladder. In John Key’s New Zealand, it’s more like a step on the treadmill.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Forbes: Careers are dead, welcome to your low wage, temp work future

                      The new economy is one which only needs disposable workers.

                      http://www.forbes.com/sites/jmaureenhenderson/2012/08/30/careers-are-dead-welcome-to-your-low-wage-temp-work-future/

                  • Ennui in Requiem

                    Pop, that statement flies directly in the face of neo lib orthodoxy, the whole thing is designed to lead to the lowest possible wage regardless of country. As an employer who does not wish to depress wages or prices AND wants some harmony in the workplace I can think of no better argument for compulsory unionism.

                  • joe90

                    A tradesman on $30somethingK, WTF, is he a clothes line mechanic?.

                    btw, starts between midnight and 3am are the reason both bakers of my acquaintance are perpetually knackered.

                • Binders full of women

                  +1 Kiwis are lazy and SI dairy farmers are aren’t paying low wages to Filipinos.. just that kiwis like are all gonna be game designers like (or ganstas bro) and grow up to complain about unaffordable houses like as they sup bought coffees and like text like on lol smartphones.

                  • Populuxe1

                    Well what is the fucking point of being in the OECD if we can’t? :)

                    • The Al1en

                      “that is exactly the attitude you ‘tards promote isnt it… why would anyone be bothered to get out of bed before 11.00 am for a mere $600 a week! FFS.

                      Bakery work is awesome…finish early arvo and go hunting or to the beach.”

                      I’m guessing your loaves are always a few slices short.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.4

      Nope, she’s BSing.

    • Pascal's bookie 2.5

      I think she clearly needs to be more flexible around her employment conditions.

      In a market, if you are not having success with an offering, you need to make a better one.

      • Puddleglum 2.5.1

        Excellent point.

        Why is it that ‘moral lack’ is always brought out by the right when market signals aren’t in an employer’s favour?

        I guess the argument from the right is that there should be no unemployment benefit as it ‘artificially’ raises wage expectations. These raised expectations then thwart the uptake of their ‘fair’ offers.

        They don’t seem to like the ‘distortions’ of non-market factors, such as collective compassion.

  2. AsleepWhileWorking 3

    “This, “For many poor students, leap to college ends in a hard fall” is a very well-executed piece in The New York Times. It follows three talented, but terribly disadvantaged, girl students who make it into university but then manage to go no further, and it shows why education doesn’t always lead to social mobility; in fact, it very often holds poor people down while further elevating middle-class and upper-class people.”

    http://bluemilk.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/education-is-a-political-issue-this-is-why/

    Thinking of all those Masters+ students, for whom this year holds particular challenge or possibly an end to their study. Obviously the above article isn’t referring to the post-grads for the most part but here in NZ the cutting of the student allowance for these people is evidence the wedge dividing socio-economic groups and education is being driven further into their working class flesh.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      Education was a panacea for improving class and income mobility in a time of economic growth and increasing job complexity and specialisation.

      Now however, complex manufacturing and scientific jobs in NZ have been cut and cut and cut. Most new jobs created pay less than $20/hr. Many science based positions are affected by 1-2 year funding regimes where continual re-application is necessary.

      Basically if you come out into this environment with a Masters or PhD the chances are that you are going to have to go overseas for any chance at real work, or you can be a Masters or PhD student stacking shelves and serving fries here in NZ. With about $50,000 more student debt than the school leaver next to you being paid the same amount.

    • karol 3.2

      Good link, ASW. Thanks. Yes social capital is very important. It’s the social and economic inequalities underlying the education system that are the main causes of educational inequalities.

      We need a return to free education and better allowances for all. Also, the content and approach of education provisions need to be more responsive to the requirements of the children of people on low incomes – especially at tertiary level. I think school teachers may be more responsive to such needs, but tertiary education is more focused on middle-class ambitions.

      I say this having taught in schools (in the UK), in Unis (in NZ and Aussie) and in TAFE/Further education colleges in the UK and Aussie.

      I also did a little bit of community/adult education in the east end of London. I had some working class women attend my class who were doing some uni courses. They seemed to be largely looking for some support in dealing with the, to them, alien middle class culture of the Uni. They talked in detail about the differences between their east end London home culture and that of the middle class Uni.

    • just saying 3.3

      Thanks for the link.
      Best piece of writing on poverty and education I’ve read in a long while.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.4

      This from the comments is awesome:

      I see so many people like me who go to university and do really well academically but have absolutely no idea what it gets them, they don’t know or imagine what work might be available, or what their labour is worth. I think they are all sessional academics, because their imaginations were never expanded beyond getting to university; getting to university was the aim in itself.

      As I’ve said before: The most important thing about education is teaching people how to think, to expand their imagination. Teaching the three r’s as National Standards does fails to achieve this.

      • aerobubble 3.4.1

        Its worse surely than that. Its feedback. As we reward buying and selling homes, we depress the innovative sector, and this flows on to gifting universities with a more leisurely attitude to teaching (and charging more). The money becomes the modus operandi. Then the governments of the day demand that education pay its way, look the politicians say the graduates are racking up income, make them pay for their education too!!! This is yet another incentive to broaden the numbers going into education. In a global information world it doesn’t matter where you are when it comes to information, and so our position as a green summer during the northern winter should have many educational, corporations, and individuals wanting to spend time here. That means we need a service, culinary, techo, tourism fusion. Yet what we have is bulk transfer of foods overseas, lousy protections for tourists… …all to keep our corrupt housing sector afloat.

  3. Morrissey 4

    Noelle McCarthy’s patsy interview with Mark Bowden
    “Summer Noelle”, National Radio, Tuesday 8 January 2013, 9:09 a.m.

    Most National Radio listeners will know that Noelle McCarthy is a decent person. She has shown in the past that she has the courage to confront hypocrites and liars. She could barely repress her loathing for S.S. man Garth McVicar when she interviewed him in March 2011…
    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09032011/#comment-306178

    This morning, she interviewed another advocate of extrajudicial killing—Mark Bowden, author of The Finish: The Killing of Osama. Perhaps because Bowden is far brighter than McVicar, she felt constrained and on edge, but it was still disappointing to hear her let Bowden get away with subtle evasions and distortions, and to hear her accept his use of euphemisms, and to even use them herself. Effectively, this amounts to cynical, willful distortion and apology for state crimes.

    Sadly, Noelle McCarthy, who can be a penetrating and intelligent interviewer, was reduced to giving the sort of patsy interview we see on British State TV or Fox News.

    More in sorrow than anger, I sent her the following e-mail….

    Interview with Mark Bowden was disturbing, and disappointing

    Dear Noelle,

    It was interesting, and chilling, to hear your guest Mark Bowden try to explain away the use of torture by saying it is something that “was in the water”.

    You also several times used the word “rendition” instead of calling it what it is: kidnapping. I am sure I was not the only listener disappointed to hear you had chosen to use this obfuscatory language.

    Yours sincerely,
    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Rogue Trooper 4.1

      I bathe in Summer Noelle some mornings when I cannot climb on top of the Hill

    • Populuxe1 4.2

      Obviously Sascha Baron Cohen paid her off as part of his secret plan in collaboration with all of the other Jewish comedians in the world (Mel Brookes was their ringleader for years) to take over the world

      • Morrissey 4.2.1

        Y’know, your sense of humour is about as lame as your attempt to smear me.

        • North 4.2.1.1

          Morrissey……seems like those so keen to yell (or at least imply) “anti-semite” are the ones more artful at defamation. Talks more about them than the subjects of their abuse perhaps ?

          Justice the seed peace the flower !

          • Morrissey 4.2.1.1.1

            He and a couple of others have been at this for a while now. Although I do not think anyone would believe any of their smears and innuendoes, I don’t think that’s really their point. What they are trying to do is create a din and thereby turn the thread into a farce.

            It’s something for Lin and the other administrators to keep an eye on. I’ll email the site formally and remind them to watch for this ongoing campaign of sabotage.

      • Rogue Trooper 4.2.2

        well, I thought Pop was funny :)

        History of the World, Part 1
        http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/9200000/Marxism-marx-brothers-9268845-2050-2560.jpg
        “A clown is like aspirin, only he works twice as fast”

        -Marx

        • North 4.2.2.1

          You’re right…….if Gaza’s funny.

          • Populuxe1 4.2.2.1.1

            Of course Gaza isn’t funny – but Morrissey’s monomaniacal obsession with it on a site about left wing New Zealand politics is, and made moreso by his weird conspiracy rants about Zionist Jewish comedians. Now that’s a SCREAM!

            • Morrissey 4.2.2.1.1.1

              …weird conspiracy rants about Zionist Jewish comedians.

              Again, you are trying, ham-fistedly, to smear me. My commentary on Baron Cohen’s defamation of that Christian peace activist in occupied Hebron was just as critical of David Letterman, and the braying sycophants in the audience.

              Your repeated attempts to portray my carefully argued points as a “conspiracy” are as inept as they are dishonest.

        • Populuxe1 4.2.2.2

          Appreciated RT – methinks Morissey picked his moniker well – I assume he hates it when his friends become successful. And if they’re northern, that makes it even worse…

  4. tracey 5

    I have a major beef with how companies can conduct themselves in litigation.

    Too often I have observed companies sued, who then defend themselves and their directors, (I am talking civil not criminal cases) putting plaintiffs through the ringer making them expend on experts and lawyers only to reach the judgement, plaintiff wins and company is placed in liquidation.

    In my own leaky home case the company through one of its directors derailed the mediation by taking a legally unsustainable position with lawyer on hand to peddle it), forced us to expend money on experts to refute their claims (which were baseless at law) and took us all the way to a hearing. It then transpired at the hearing that the director had, as we suspected, lied about giving over the names of people from his buidling company who had been onsite.

    The hearing was 5 days.

    Our out of pocket legal and expert expenses were over $130k. We won our judgement and put in an application for costs on the basis of his lying. The day their defence was due they filed for liquidation. We won our costs application but the tribunal decided that lying deliberately withholding important information was only worth $5000. In any event the company cant pay and cant pay its judgment.

    This company should not be able to engage a lawyer and run up expenses for us if it knows as this company surely did) that if it lost it couldn’t pay. If they had not defended we would have gained a settlement from council at a far earlier point and saved over $50,000 in costs.

    This is happening every day in this country across any variety of civil claims, not just mine and not just leaky homes.

    Surely the ‘fix” is relatively simple, if there was any will. We could try and sue him under the companies act for dishonesty but it would cost us more money and is a notoriously hard case to win.

    So why the huge lopsided bias toward directors and companies in this type of situation?

    • Colonial Viper 5.1

      Criminal contempt of court proceedings should be filable against directors who have knowingly submitted false testimony or fraudulent evidence to a court.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.2

      To protect the rich which is, from what I can make out, the basis for almost all our commercial laws.

    • North 5.3

      I recall some years ago discussing with a lawyer employed by one of the big five commercial firms the reasons for his up and leaving, by all appearances suddenly and inexplicably. I mean, who wouldn’t wanna be in the frame for partnership in one of said firms. Six, seven hundy a year and more ?

      The principal reason advanced was this: he had identified his essential role in this firm on behalf of its often multi-national, inexhaustibly wealthy clients as being to devise endless interlocutory applications to the High Court which had the effect of burning-off relatively financially weak opponents of said clients.

      Repeated exercises of this nature finally had the little guy bruised, scared, and running out of the bucks necessary to last the distance. Easy meat for a settlement favourable to the big guy.

      I always admired that guy for resolving that he could no longer stomach the amorality of it all. I hope he’s found happiness and professional fulfillment. Of course on Planet Key he was only ever a fuckwit.

      • tracey 5.3.1

        It is also why I left the practice of law in the mid-90′s. It was just amoney-go-round witht he rich defendants quietly strangling the plaintiffs. Had two small business owners who died, one a massive heart attack, the other hung himself following our final attempt to get him the money he was owed.

  5. lprent 6

    Primary server had a glitch at ~11:40. Not sure why – will be having a look at the logs.

    It got automatically restarted at ~11:50, but came back up with a read-only filesystem, something else I will have to force a check on (it obviously had something wrong in the file system).

    I rebooted it manually, but it took me some time to get through the security I put in last night from my work system. Was back up at ~12:02

    The joys of a new server…

    • Colonial Weka 6.1

      This morning or last night? Last night I got introduced to the Cloud, with its offering of a two day old cached page and pretty layout error message.

      • lprent 6.1.1

        New server. There are always a few difficulties.
        Last night I was increasing the CPU available. I didn’t expect it to take an hour.
        This morning there was a just an unexplained crash.

        I’d expect everything to stabilize soon.

        But the nice things about the move are that the servers are now well and truly lost in the “cloud” (which makes them hard to legally shutdown), and the costs have dropped to between a third and a half of the previous costs depending on where it settles at the end of the process.

        • Rogue Trooper 6.1.1.1

          To Whom It May Concern,
          I’d just like to say that I’m bored mulling around the berry plant picking up butts; speak, or hold your piece, nothing hard about it, after all, apparently I’m the “fool” :)

          Thanks for the “friend” acceptance guys, nothing to fear, nothing to hide. I was chatting with a public servant this morning, he’s on to it, said he read a quote “F.B.I never had it so easy since the rise of FB” (federal bureau of information) Then, I get the latest copy of Best Practice delivered to my door with veges I planted this morning and guess what’s on the cover? Poppies!
          I’ve grown them two years in a row, yet no need for them anymore; being informed’s gettin me high enough :)

          an unidentified Friedman object that flew my way this morning
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanton_T._Friedman

          -Klaatu

    • lprent 6.2

      Was a spambot. I hadn’t put in the limitipconn module for apache.

  6. Draco T Bastard 7

    Key’s stance on broadband decision gob-smacking

    It beggars belief, really. Not to mention beggaring consumers. Prime Minister John Key’s willingness to overrule the Commerce Commission’s reduction of wholesale broadband pricing is gobsmacking. Let’s count the ways.

    John Key goes in to bat for the shareholders and not NZers.

    • aerobubble 7.1

      When I heard that the slow uptake of broadband would require a price reduction I thought nice.

      Having had the road recently being dug up and looking at the prices I might have taken a second look.

      Thanks John Key, I don’t have to bother, the shareholders want only rich customers.

      Why is that? Surely there’s more profit the more people use the service, you know the whole
      give them tax cuts means more profitable activities boosting rather than reducing tax revenues.

      Reduce the cost of broadband and more people will pay for it, more profits, more price reductions as more companies offer services, that’s the capitalist way.

      But Key is not a capitalist, he’s a national socialist, who believes interfering to save the wealthy a harder life and ignoring and reducing protective regulation on the lower classes (because they need the spur to get off their back sides).

    • LynWiper 7.2

      Just read this myself and was about to link to it. You beat me DTB! Gobsmacking to say the least. I have Facebooked this as it’s the best way I know how to get this kind of info out there. My friends and acquaintances’ may not take politics as ‘seriously’ as I do but at least I can try to get them to engage and be more informed.

    • Ennui in Requiem 7.3

      Who we ask might the shareholders include?

      The following own around 60% of the shares:
      National Nominees New Zealand Limited –an Auckland investment house.
      HSBC Nominees (New Zealand) Limited – Hong Kong Shanghai Bank NZ
      JP Morgan Chase Bank

      Now just who and what is our PM?
      Also remember the Kiwisaver funds buy nominee shares etc…..also the government might have large holdings in these banks / companies and or a tangled web of bond obligations / bank debts etc.

      In that light is Keys willingness so gobsmacking?

  7. Rogue Trooper 8

    Dear Judith,
    Crushingly, all drug offenders, even minor one, must go through courts
    -2800 imprisoned over last 6 years
    -police oppose legaliZing pipes and needles
    despite
    -Law Commission criticisms of criminal focus on minor offences in recent review
    -NZ drug foundation alarm (Hells Bells) at court focus on minor offences
    (war is lost) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Drugs

    Hagel Chucks antagonistic attitude towards state of Israel

    Support The Big Red Lycopene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycopene

    In the second U.S full-page broad-side, I mean sheet, in the Dom in a week, CIA minimize the use of Torture 31 Dark Zero

    contrast with, ( a few sheets further in)

    Chinese vocational students “PRESSED” into manufacturing roles
    when actually (same article)
    -wages RISING in their southern manufacturing sector and are an increasing component of their costs
    -greater uptake of tertiary study, less labour migration to the south, one-child policy factors
    -vocational school grads increase surge 26%
    -only 2.7% of Foxconn workforce students
    -only 8 hour days by law although 12 often worked (same here)
    -they may be paid less, but in general receive the same

    These WOF / COF changes are gonna backfire imo

    70% of NZers cybercrime phishes

    The World Until Yesterday
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/non_fictionreviews/9756597/The-World-Until-Yesterday-by-Jared-Diamond-review.html
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tH8jOP98C0
    hmmm

  8. rosy 9

    Another woman dies as a result of family violence and 2 more children are motherless – no telling how much violence they’ve witnessed before this.

    Stuff writes the killing off as a “domestic dispute”.

    Meanwhile secure funding for violence prevention and women’s refuges have to go into >a href=”http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10816644″>crisis talks to secure funding after $700,000 was lopped off their funding in 2011.

  9. North 10

    To David C above who says poverty is fine for the unskilled I say only this: one day, one day……karma for you and/or yours.

    And I just know you’d be the snivelling moaner, blaming it all on someone else.

  10. David C, 170.000 unemployed and rising.
    Having a degree or a certain skill can actually count against you if a prospective employer
    feels you are too qualified for a position.
    The new catch phrase for the right seem to be ‘upskill’, this is to mask the inability of
    the Key govt to create the 170.000 jobs he promised before the last election, what Key
    should have said is that there would be 170.000 + jobs lost in NZ as at the end of 2012,
    perhaps he couldn’t remember what he should have said.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      The new catch phrase for the right seem to be ‘upskill’,

      This at the same time as they are locking down uni funding, wrecking polytechs, and taking away loans and allowances from students. Typical Right Wing tomfuckery.

      David C, 170.000 unemployed and rising.

      I’m guessing that David C regards these people as 170,000 lazy, entitled, unqualified lefty fucktards.

  11. Totally agree with you CV, David C only turns right and the right give education the
    two finger salute.

  12. Pascal's bookie 13

    Epic Alex Jones rant:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AtyKofFih8Y#!

    And people say it’s unfair to judge people for linking to ‘infowars’. The guy is a fucking clown. End of. Get a better source.

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