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Open mike 12/02/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 12th, 2013 - 174 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

174 comments on “Open mike 12/02/2013”

  1. vto 1

    I woke with a start
    in the middle of the night

    I realised our banking friends
    just hoovered another great bite

    of our daily toil you see
    each time our eyes alight with glee

    at the thought of hundreds of thousands
    bulging our wallets so easily

    . . .

    all that is needed
    is a 12% rise

    in the price of Auckland houses
    of great and wonderous size

    12% you see
    times $550,000 of each of 400,000 houses not many

    is $26,000,000,000 (that’s 26 billion) in one short year..

    So thanks mr banker for providing such a sum
    is only $1,6000,000 (that’s 1.6 billion) in interest (for printed money of all things) ….

    how …..

    bloody ….

    dumb ….

    • Rogue Trooper 1.1

      yup, she’s a bubble all night. (just keep shuttin’ out those first home buyers and await the inevitable increase in liabilities; RNZ-landlords trying to get tenants to pay the water and rates bills in addition to rent)

  2. Te Reo Putake 2

    USA! USA! We’re No.2!

    China overtakes the US in world trade. The Asian century has begun:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/feb/11/china-worlds-largest-trading-nation

  3. Te Reo Putake 3

    Indifferent Labour leader who nobody much likes in poll shock:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/11/labour-lead-conservative-12-point-poll

    • Coronial Typer 3.1

      Harrumph. His brother would have done better. ;-)

    • The Al1en 3.2

      Keep pulling that bow string back, bruv. You’ve still got a fair way to go before you can link DS with EM. Nice try though.

      Show the poll that shows if UK Labour had ditched pm Brown before the last election, their losses would have reduced to the point of forming a legitimate coalition with the lib dems.

    • I would not call Miliband indifferent. He is a conviction politician who speaks well.

      And it makes you wonder why New Zealand Labour is not doing better.

      • The Al1en 3.3.1

        And that’s with them blamed for GBR’s financial woes and increasing taxes for the lowest paid during their last government.

        Looking at caucus is reason enough to work out why NZ Labour are not doing better.

        • Enough is Enough 3.3.1.1

          Not really the Caucus, just the hopeless leader. Replace him with someone who can speak and Labour will have a 10 point bounce overnight.

          • fatty 3.3.1.1.1

            Yip, elections are popularity contests these days…is there much of a difference between Labour UK & Labour NZ policies?

            edit – just read Karol’s comment below…now my question is, if NZ Labour brought in more policies like UK Labour, would Shearer be popular in the polls?

          • The Al1en 3.3.1.1.2

            “Not really the Caucus, just the hopeless leader.”

            All right, just at least 22 of them.

    • karol 3.4

      Miliband does have a reasonable amount of parliamentary experience: been an MP since 2005, has been a cabinet minister, was secretary of state for energy and climate change, has experience in student politics, has been an political speech writer and taken a lead in drafting Labour Party policy, is articulate and is very good at delivering speeches. He also has explicitly articulated his political position: he has stated he is a socialist, is for civil liberties, wants to scrap uni tuition fees and implement a graduate tax, is for an FTT, is against welfare cuts.

      He still panders to neoliberalism, but I’d position him to the left of Shearer.

      • mickysavage 3.4.1

        Yep and he said that the UK’s involvement in the Iraqi war was a mistake. All power to him.

      • Colonial Viper 3.4.2

        karol – both Millibands were raised by seriously socialist parents. IIRC his dad was a published marxist.

        He still panders to neoliberalism

        Not quite; I would suggest that he panders to capitalists. That is slightly different, and also necessary, given the economic structure the world runs on today.

    • felixviper 3.5

      Interesting that you consider Milliband “indifferent” yet I have a far better idea who he is and what he stands for than I do Shearer.

      And that’s despite Milliband living on the other side of the planet and me having only a passing interest in anything he says.

      Still, you can prove us all misguided any time you like by publishing the glowing poll results showing that Shearer has mumbled Labour ahead of National here too.

      If not, you’re really only highlighting his failure to do so.

      • Colonial Viper 3.5.1

        Ed Milliband speaking at his old comprehensive, during the UK Labour leadership challenge.

        Listen to how he speaks off the cuff.

        “My parents taught me something very very simple. Which is a faith really. If you see an injustice in your society you shouldn’t just walk by on the other side, you shouldn’t just get angry, you should do something about it.”

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DriJZdZxFpU

        This is who TRP describes as an “indifferent” leader.

        • felixviper 3.5.1.1

          There’s a lot in that video that relates to the NZ Labour Party too, eh?

          If only there were someone on the front bench capable of saying it. (Or someone who understands it.)

      • The Voice of Reason 3.5.2

        Oooh lads, your ignorance about Ed Miliband’s status in the UK is kinda cute.. He was initially regarded as being hopeless and is often ridiculed as being as being a Mr Bean like character. Like Shearer, he is starting to grow on the voters there. He is also, like Shearer, facing a whispering campaign to unseat him. Like it or not, its an apt comparison.

        And, if you are going to claim reasonable knowledge of him and his works, felix, you should at least know how his name is spelled.

        • felixviper 3.5.2.1

          Didn’t claim that at all, TRP. Quite the opposite in fact.

        • felixviper 3.5.2.2

          “Like it or not, its an apt comparison.”

          Really? You must have some polling data that none of the rest of us have seen then. Apparently Ed is 10 points ahead of the tories.

          How far ahead of the tories is Dave?

          • McFlock 3.5.2.2.1

            Actually, a quick google suggests TRP might be on to something.

            Just from the line snapshots in google:
            Sep 29, 2012 – NEARLY half of Labour voters think that Ed Miliband is too WEAK to be Prime Minister, a poll has revealed.

            http://www.thesun.co.uk/…/Only-one-in-five-Brits-think-Ed-Miliban…Oct 1, 2012 – FEWER than one in five Brits thinks Labour chief Ed Miliband is a PM in waiting, an exclusive YouGov poll for The Sun reveals.

            Jun 23, 2012 – Mr Miliband is used to being told that he is well placed to attract … Ed Miliband got some bad news: A private poll suggested his party’s lead …

            Voters cannot see Ed Miliband in power
            http://www.newstatesman.com/node/40683/Sep 14, 2011 – The Times has released its annual pre-conference poll (£), and it shows that Ed Miliband is still failing to command the support of his party.

            • felixviper 3.5.2.2.1.1

              Not following you McF.

              Two leaders attract the same sort of criticisms, only one defies them.

              • McFlock

                with a year and a half advantage in time – sarc>so, no knives out before 2014, eh? /sarc>
                Oh, and I’m not sure there was a Cunliffe grandstanding at Ed’s party conference address, refusing to say whether he’d challenge for the leadership in Feb.

                • felixviper

                  Fair point about the 18 month head start.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Oh, and I’m not sure there was a Cunliffe grandstanding at Ed’s party conference address, refusing to say whether he’d challenge for the leadership in Feb.

                  Well, the UK Labour caucus had the sense to put their leadership out to a democratic vote by all members and all affiliates.

                  Amazing the unity in UK Labour which resulted eh?

                  • McFlock

                    Unlike the NZ Labour conference that chose not to put the vote to the membership of caucus had confidence in the leadership.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I agree with you.

                      On this count both the NZ Labour caucus and the NZ Labour Conference fucked up.

          • Te Reo Putake 3.5.2.2.2

            12 points, felix, put your glasses on. It’s an apt comparison for the reasons I’ve given above. Feel free to point out the social democratic party leader anywhere in the world more like Shearer than Miliband.

            And seeing as you appear to have forgotten what I wrote, here it is again:

            “Indifferent Labour leader who nobody much likes in poll shock:”

            My intention was to make people immediately think of Shearer, when the article was actually about Miliband. It’s a jokey juxtaposition of the two leaders, both of whom suffer from a lack of public enthusiasm. It’s a very common form of comedic one liner. Oddly enough, I’m sure you’ve cracked a few jokes along similar lines yourself in the past, so I’m surprised you’ve forgotten how it works.

            ps, cheers, McFlock, you’re onto it.

            • felixviper 3.5.2.2.2.1

              This “joking” of yours, I dunno if it’s working for you.

              • Te Reo Putake

                The others get it, felix*. You used to be pretty funny yourself, back in the day. Why so sad?

                *edit: Ok, you and the alien (below) don’t get it. Can I recommend the Guardian’s Fiver to you both? You’ll soon pick up how this comedic reversal stuff works.

                • The Al1en

                  Maybe I’m just a little too dumb and/or you’re just so cunningly good.

                  Happy to concede to either, unless of course I’m re-polarising the humour and injecting a particle of back at you, in which case, perhaps not. :lol:

                  • The Al1en

                    But being as honest as I am, I can’t lie. I just didn’t get it. :)

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    You’re no dummy, so it must be my cunning goodness, Al1en! At the heart of it I was comparing Miliband and Shearer and the two Labour Parties. The leaders both got their jobs despite apparently better candidates being available and neither enjoys uncritical support. Both have a long way to go to convince voters to trust them, but UK Labour has found a way to turn disenchantment with the coalition government into positive support for them. NZ Labour have a couple of years to do the same, but the point is, it can be done.

                • felixviper

                  Oh I get how it works. You say the same sort of stuff all the time and usually try to argue it, then every now and then instead of arguing it you say “I was joking, I actually meant the opposite, not just of what I said just now but of what I say all the time.”

                  Hilar.

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    Fuck me, you’re really losing it felix! I’m not going to put smiley’s on every mildly wry comment I occasionally make just because you have a cobb on. Cheer up, for fucks sake!

                • The Fan Club

                  1057 pedants write in to say that the Fiver’s not very funny.

            • The Al1en 3.5.2.2.2.2

              “And seeing as you appear to have forgotten what I wrote, here it is again:

              “Indifferent Labour leader who nobody much likes in poll shock:””

              I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make.
              Is it Ed is perceived indifferently by some yet get’s good poll numbers, DS is perceived indifferently by many Labour members and voters, so it’s no surprise he’s continually gets the shit numbers his nothingness deserves?
              I don’t get it.

        • fatty 3.5.2.3

          Like Shearer, he is starting to grow on the voters

          From the voice of reason

        • The Al1en 3.5.2.4

          And yet on the old BBC polltracker, despite alleged misgivings, on the numbers, UK Labour have been able to form a government for the past couple of years.

          So the poll about dumping Brown pre election equating to reduced parliamentary losses.
          Not applicable here?
          Would dumping the extremely unpopular Shearer not bounce the polls?
          Argue otherwise.

    • David H 3.6

      And here the bloody Labour party can’t get past 33% What a crock!

    • KhandallaViper 3.7

      Inspired TPR!

      We should aim for indifferent spokespersons, backbench MPs and NZ Council members too.

      Hey, why not go the full hog and insist that our canvassers/activists be indifferent and relatively unlikeable. That should do it. We are half way there. All we need now is for National to hang out the white flag, roll over and hand us the keys to the Beehive.

      Inspired Strategy, Go TRP, the Voice of Pagani!

      Aim…low..

      • Te Reo Putake 3.7.1

        Comprehension prob’s this arvo, KV? Try reading the words aloud. Oh, you already do that?

  4. Coronial Typer 4

    Worst Pope since that dork who made himself infallible. On your bike pal.

    • Tau Henare for pope!

    • Pete 4.2

      If only all leaders had the humility to step down when they realise they’re not up to the job rather than letting pride get in the way…

    • Vinscreen Viper 4.3

      Begs the question of what a great Pope would be:

      A) One so sure of the rightness of his convictions – and thus that all non-Catholics are bound for Hell* – that he mobilises all the tools available to any wealthy organisation in the 21st Century to assault the great unwashed with his version of the truth (including an all-out assault on the mistaken beliefs of those other misguided People of the Book presently lopping the limbs off non-believers in various parts of the world), or

      B) A Pope who declares ex-cathedra that the whole thing is really just a crock of merda, or

      C) A Pope who converts Roman Catholicism into its true role as an entertainment business, as “The Church Ltd.” and moves the Vatican to Hollywood, or

      D) A Pope who completes his entire Papacy without a single scandal,

      E) a lady Pope who manages not to get pregnant.

      *Pope Boniface VIII: “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

    • Treetop 4.4

      What has really made the Pope’s job untenable?

      Probably the last eight decades of child sexual assault creating a backlog of settlements.

      • Rogue Trooper 4.4.1

        Yup! (according to RNZ report; he just could not reconcile all this kiddy-fiddlin’ and there is a lot more to come out of the woodwork in this pornocratic age)

    • McFlock 4.5

      On the flipside, someone has at last voluntarily left a secure job, most likely just to go on a benefit.

      My ACT membership fees are in the post :)

  5. ianmac 5

    Prime TV has taken on 60 Minutes. Last night they did a great (?) Public Relations job for Mr Key and Sir Peter Jackson. The happily used the 3,000 employed and the saving of the Hobbits thanks to clever, brave action by Key and Jackson, leading to billions (!) of dollars for needy NZ.
    Especially telling given the current wait for the emails.

    • xtasy 5.1

      They still categorise that program as “current affairs”, I just wonder “whose” “current affairs”?

      “The Nation” on TV 3 has also struck me as having a “kind inclination” towards presenting the government in good light (remember the live cast from the National Party Conference and lengthy interviews with Ministers and co-hosted with selected media personalities).

      This all calls for a solid return to fair, balanced public broadcasting, so turn TVNZ into something like the ABC in Australia. As for advertising “paying” for private or semi private broadcasting, in reality consumers pay for the broadcasting through buying the products advertised.

      Only pay per view or so is acceptable, competitive “private” broadcasting.

  6. bad12 6

    It is that time again for Maori to decide which electoral roll to sign onto the Maori or European rolls,

    The more Maori who sign onto the Maori roll, the more likely it is that there will be more Maori electorate seats in the Parliament…

    • Anakereiti 6.1

      running a whanau campaign as i type. Most Maori I know are on the Maori roll. Just need to educate more of our young ones.

      • bad12 6.1.1

        Good skills, i love the Maori electorate seats, in my view an actual physical expression of Tinorangatiratanga within the Parliament,

        Maori who deserve a central and pivotal role in the central decision making process are given that with the Maori electorates where they can at once vote for a candidate from within the rohe and if they so choose Party vote for who they see as being the major party of Government,

        Speaking from Wellington i believe the Maori Party burned a lot of young people when it went into coalition with the National Government,

        i was highly impressed having young Maori knocking on my door at the 2008 election seeking my vote for the party,(as i explained then i had to decline as Tariana’s motivation for foriming that party in the first place, no matter how justified She was in doing so, precluded the Maori Party from supporting a Labour lead Government),

        It only took 18 months here for the Maori Party flags to all but disappear and the window stickers to be hastily scraped from the back windscreens of the waka,

        2011 brought no canvassers for the Maori Party to the door round here and i can only assess the damage done to all those young Maori that once so proudly trod those miles supporting ‘their’ party against my own experience of having trod similar miles on behalf of the Labour Party which helped elect Sir(spit)Roger Douglas into a Government, which provided me a serious imperative to view myself as a fool for having been fooled by those people,

        Good luck with inspiring your young voters we need them involved, not only as voters but as activists who have a voice in the political process…

    • It makes you wonder about the suggestion that Tamihere was going to get West Auckland Whanau to go over to the European roll. This would weaken the case for another seat so that he could try and take Bennett on. He would be better off going up against Pita Sharples.

      • Anakereiti 6.2.1

        He sure would! Sometimes you wonder about politicians, signing onto the Maori roll as opposed to European should not be a monopoly game……

      • tc 6.2.2

        JT must earn a seat by taking it from the opposition.

  7. bad12 7

    Using Treasury figures Nick Smith is claiming that Labour’s KiwiBuild will not bring down the cost of housing in Auckland,(RadioNZ National news),

    I have yet to see this Treasury report but it’s obvious from what Nick Smith has been saying that the Treasury has started from the point of a ‘false’ initial premise,(that the entire ‘build’ is a one off 10,000 homes), and then extrapolated their conclusions upon that false premise, in other words created for it’s own purposes a ‘strawman’ argument with which to attempt to discredit Labour’s ‘KiwBuild’ program,

    Treasury of course get everything right in their advice to Minister’s like getting right the assertion that the GST rise to 15% along with the associated shuffling of the tax burdon to the detriment of those reliant on the lower income brackets for their daily needs by the Slippery lead National Government would be ‘fiscally neutral’,

    Such a getting of it’s advice right to Government blew a billion dollar annual hole in the Government’s revenue from taxation, not that Slippery and Co gave a big one about that as their only intent with such a ‘tax switch’ was to ensure the loyalty of the current National Party vote,

    The new Minister of un-Housing NZ Nick Smith tho thrives on such ‘strawman arguments'(if the truth were known it’s possible that He dictated the contents of the Treasury report to those who wrote it),and the 2009 settlement of Nick’s defamation of a South Island building supply company settled by over 200 grand of your and my monies shows that Nick hasn’t yet realized that mostly what is ejected from His mouth turns out to be s**t…

  8. Anakereiti 8

    Did anyone read the Richard Prosser column in investigate magazine, where he refers to all muslims as being from “wogistan”, and states that anyone looking even vaguely “muslim” shouldnt be allowed on western airlines.

    • Colonial Weka 8.1

      Tried to find it online, but best I can do is a kiwiblog link (sorry).

      http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/02/wogistan.html

      • Colonial Weka 8.1.1

        “In his latest column he refers to certain people as coming from “Wogistan” and also declares that no young male who is a Muslim, looks like a Muslim or is from a Muslim country should be able to fly on a Western airline.”

        That rules out Temuera Morrison and Cliff Curtis ever flying again :roll:

        What does a Muslim look like anyway? I think Prosser means Arab. What a dick.

        Looks like pretty clear grounds for a Race Relations complaint. I guess he is after the publicity.

        • James 8.1.1.1

          Not really a Race Relations complaint.

          If they are happy with “White Mother Fuckers” – since it was an opinion (of somebody that is generally popular on this forum) – then Prossers opinion (as messed up as it is) should be ok also.

          • QoT 8.1.1.1.1

            Private emails and published magazine columns are completely the same thing! Using a naughty word and advocating institutional oppression are completely the same thing!

            God, could white dudes get over what a meany-pants Hone Harawira is already?

            • felixviper 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Poor James, no grasp of set theory, takes a couple of words out of a sentence and applies his own meaning as if it were gospel.

              Hint James: When I say “smart motherfuckers have been posting in this thread” I’m not necessarily talking about you.

              • vto

                Messers felix and QoT, I aint diving into this one except to put this to your good minds…. this is exactly where the left misses huge portions of the population. Either the left has the wrong end of the stick in defending one disparaging racist comment and supporting the other disparaging racist comment, or the left is totally useless in explaining what is wrong with the point james makes. It just leaves the population shaking its head and dismissing it. QoT’s explanation comes across as splitting hairs to support personal preferences in the political realm.

                This is what they see. I mean, what is going on when the two “sides”, left and right, just cannot understand each others points. Especially on issues as basic as this. It just comes across as two sets of rules for two different groups to the rightish types…

                So, what gives?

                Over

              • James

                Yeah – Hone isnt a rasist – he is taken out of context. :Tui:

                Its people like you – and the fact that labour will die in the ditch with Mana / NZ First if you needed that are driving your voters away in droves.

                So dont worry about poor James – Felix Viper, worry about your own party who are sinking and will continue to do so. After all you are judged by the company you keep.

      • felixviper 8.1.2

        lol at that kb thread, not many commenters disagree with Prosser.

        DPF puts on his outraged urban liberal hat and invites all his KKK mates over for a beer.

        As usual.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.1

          I heard this Prosser issue make it on to National Radio. Really fucking sick bastard.

          If Winston doesn’t force Prosser to retract this ASAP it will be a black mark against NZ1: evidence that it’s still a racist party at heart.

    • If you ever needed an example of why a Labour-Green-NZFirst coalition will never work you only have to look at the stupidity and racist bigotry contained in Richard Prosser’s (or is that Tosser’s) article. And fancy writing for Investigate magazine!

      • gobsmacked 8.2.1

        If you ever needed an example of why a Labour-Green-NZFirst coalition will never work …

        This, exactly this.

        Nobody on the (broad) left has to pander to the likes of Prosser. A Labour/Green majority is achievable. Now we just need Labour to say they really want one. And mean it.

        Is that so much to ask?

        • Colonial Weka 8.2.1.1

          Completely agree micky and gobsmacked. It scares me everytime I see someone here talk about a threeway coalition that included NZF as if it’s a good thing. And yeah, Labour really need to get their shit together on who their allies are.

          • Sweetd 8.2.1.1.1

            Based on this article, will Shearer have the balls to ask Winston that he either dumps Prosser or Labour will not go into coaliation win NZF?, or does getting into power trump everything else?

            • felixviper 8.2.1.1.1.1

              Should be asking Key really, he’s the one who’s going to have to deal with Winston & co.

    • bad12 8.3

      Excellent, Winston has just about passed His used by date, Brendon Who has been kneecapped and bundled off to Siberia along with His leadership aspirations,

      Prosser, the loose cannon in this little game of ‘Texas holdem’ has not only jumped off of the 17th floor in an act of political suicide far grander in scale than that of Brendon Who, Prosser has also managed to introduce the possibility that NZFirst wont feature in the next Parliament,

      Bravo Richard Prosser lets have you on the TV news for a week raving about muslims and ‘Wogistan’ a guaranteed provocation that should have the left arm of NZFirst walking away in droves…

      • bad12 8.3.1

        Winston was just on RadioNZ National distancing Himself from Richard Prosser’s comments, saying that there are zillions of law abiding Muslims and he knows a few personally as they are Party members,

        Richard Prosser’s political future in NZFirst=Zero, NZFirst’s chances of returning to the Parliament in 2014= Fading fast…

  9. Anakereiti 9

    Darn – no cliff in a hollywood movie – on the upside it also means no Tem in a hollywood movie.

  10. geoff 10

    Just listened to yesterday’s RNZ politics with Hooton & Williams.

    Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

    Yet again, Mike W agrees with almost everything that Hooton says and so yet again the seemingly
    only leftwing voice comes from the bloody presenter. (Hint Mike: It’s not Kathryn’s job to call Mathew out on his shit, it’s yours)

    Lowlights: When asked why NZ doesn’t have enough sailors to operate its vessels, Hooton bizarrely goes into a rant about how the Green party are hypocrites because they aren’t pushing for a strong military given their position on climate change. (Hooton apparently thinks that consequences of climate change for NZ will be millions of Indonesians trying to invade us.)

    After this Kathryn, once more, called him on his shit of not answering the question.

    Then….

    Right at the end Hooton, like a love-sick puppy, can’t sing enough praise for David Shearer, ‘oh David’s so savvy, oh David’s fought off three leadership challenges, oh David oh David….etc’

    I used to think the problem with the show was hooton but it’s not, it’s Williams.
    He’s too bloated (in all senses of the word) to do the job properly. Too close to the beltway. He’s spent too many years on the good paddocks, getting fat on the very system he should be railing against. I hear him speak and I feel, as he nods along with Hooters, that his mind is straying to the pasta and beer he’s going to have for lunch, or the afternoon nap in a comfy chair.

    Please step down Mike. Please let someone with vitality and enthusiasm do the job properly.

  11. 4wardthinking 11

    How can this be so? The secret vote is no longer secret? And whoever has leaked it is pushing Grant Robertson as leader?
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/02/was_it_10_votes_against.html

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      Yeah I understood that it was a 10 vote abstention as well. In otehr words, 70% of caucus decided that there was no need to give a voice to the members and affiliates.

      • The Voice of Reason 11.1.1

        Don’t just blame the 70%, CV! The other 30% of caucus also decided that there was no need to give a voice to the members and affiliates and bottled it by abstaining.

        And, encouragingly, 100% of caucus endorsed the democratic process the members and affiliates wanted and voted in at conference.

        Even if this report was true, and I seriously doubt it, so what? The minority didn’t have the courage of their convictions., Shearer is endorsed and we move on …

        • felixviper 11.1.1.1

          …to Robertson.

          • The Pink Postman 11.1.1.1.1

            The next government will be a Shearer led Labour /Green coalition.and Shearer will prove to be an excellent Labour PM. I just wish some of you so called Labour Supporters would just start to fully support the LP, party . I think a lot of you are just Tories in drag if you are not well join the Nat’s and moan and groan to those Po faced creeps or better still join NZ 1st and join the Muslim bashers At least they give the Jews and Asians a break. from their Racist utterances .

            • Pascal's bookie 11.1.1.1.1.1

              How hard would it have been for Shearer to respond to Prosser’s crap by saying “It’s outrageous and he won’t be a minister in any government I lead” ?

              But instead

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10864924

              where are his instincts? On what do you base your belief that he’d be an excellent PM?

              • Colonial Viper

                Why on earth is the word “Moslem” used in that NZH article??? What the frak is a “Moslem”???

                • McFlock

                  An indication that the Herald’s only dictionary on site is fifty years old?

                • QoT

                  Ha, it’s “Muslim” now. I noticed earlier in the day though that it was “Moslem” except for the name of the NZ Muslim Association. So who do you reckon the numpty is, Kurt Bayer or Matthew Theunissen?

              • McFlock

                Labour Leader David Shearer said he found Mr Prosser’s comments “offensive” and said they could hurt New Zealand’s reputation in other countries.

                “If those sorts of comments were made in the Middle East it could incite violence we don’t want that here.

                It makes us look like we don’t care about people from the Middle East, from Moslem countries. People will be looking at us with some disdain.”

                The fact they were made in a printed column made it worse as they were clearly pre-meditated, he said.

                And from Stuff:

                Labour leader David Shearer said the remarks were ”completely inappropriate for this Parliament”.

                “It’s not something that came off the top of his head as a mistake, it was calculated. I think MPs… should act responsibly. And in this case I think it could lead to inciting violence.”

                Other nations – particularly in the Middle East – will look on New Zealand “with some disdain”, Shearer said.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  That’s my point McFlock.

                  His instincts. are ‘OMG what will people think’ rather than the principle. And he includes a weird little aside about how he thinks Muslims might riot if he’d said it in the middle east. At least he didn’t call it wogistan I guess.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    The best bit is the subtle buying into the “Muslims are violent and lawless” meme that Prosser is promoting.

                  • McFlock

                    No, his instincts were to say Prosser’s comments were offensive and completely inappropriate for Parliament.
                    THEN to look into the further problems with them, and the impact they could have locally and internationally. And that the comments were premeditated, not just a slip of the tongue.

                    Was he incorrect?

                    • felixviper

                      The correct answer in that context is “That’s racist bullshit and I won’t have him in my govt”.

                      Anything else – in that context, for Shearer – is incorrect, yes.

                    • McFlock

                      incorrect for two reasons: firstly, Shearer doesn’t do “ladsy” very well. Using the patois of the gutter wouldn’t be convincing from him – it would be patronising. And referring to “my government” at this stage would be fodder for key and yourself (seriously – if he’d said what you just typed, are you seriously saying you wouldn’t call him something like “try-hard and deluded”?).

                      So Shearer needed to go to the second characteristic of leadership: show decorum and geopolitical competence. Which he did.

                      Hone’s line was best, Peters did the minimising self-serving statement, and key was pretty noncommittal until fed the angle by the journalists.

                      [edit] PB – did we cross-post?

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Was he incorrect to start blathering about how he reckons Muslims might have reacted (hint Violent muslims)? Yes.

                      the point isn’t that what he said might hurt us internationally, the point is he’s a bigoted halfwit. How hard is it to say:

                      “It’s outrageous and he won’t be a minister in any government I lead” ?

                      If he needs to follow up on that go with how he wouldn’t have future in the party if he was a Labour MP but that’s a matter for Winston.

                      Or talk about how this is the sort of nonsense we last heard when Bush was in power, and the National party wanted to join in on the stupid war in Iraq, where John Key said we were missing in action.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      That was geopolitical competence? For whom, a 3rd year pol-sci undergrad?

                    • McFlock

                      nope. From someone with several years’ experience in the region.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      I guess we did cross post.

                      Read this: Judith Collins ffs, sounds more like what I’d expect a NZ Labour party leader to sound like:

                      http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1302/S00126/nz-embarrassed-by-prossers-comments.htm

                      rain artillery on the prick, from a position of principle.

                    • McFlock

                      Goff’s statement.

                      Similar to Collins’. Which is a valid technique – the leader frowns, the front bench barks. 1-MP parties have to do both.

                    • felixviper

                      I didn’t mean he should say that verbatim McF.

                      My fault, should’ve been clearer. I just meant all he needs to do is strongly disagree and NOT waffle on about how you shouldn’t piss muslims off ‘cos they get a bit stroppy, or anything else.

                      Trouble is the more he does this sort of thing, the more I think he’s just saying what he really thinks.

                      And that’s way worse than what I was giving him credit for.

                    • QoT

                      completely inappropriate for Parliament.

                      Totally appropriate in heaps of other contexts, though.

                    • McFlock

                      Shearer did strongly disagree with Prosser’s comments.

                      I disagree with your interpretation of Shearer’s comments relating to civil stability in the Middle East. I think they were valid, especially given his extensive experience in the area. But feel free to correct him. I suggest repeating Prosser’s statements in downtown Cairo. Let us know how you get on.

                      @QoT: what a load of crap.

                    • felixviper

                      “I suggest repeating Prosser’s statements in downtown Cairo. Let us know how you get on.”

                      Ah, so you mean if you just take Shearer’s literal words, squnting away all context and subtext, you could say he was factually accurate in that you shouldn’t actually go to the middle east and be all anti-muslim.

                      Does that make it a smart thing to say? I suppose it depends what message you’re trying to send.

                      A bit like Hone’s ‘white motherfuckers have been raping our land for centuries.’ Factually accurate if you allow a little poetic license, but potentially highly offensive, mainly to those with no grasp of basic set theory.

                      Many thought at the time that it was politically naive of him to say such things, but again, it depends who the message is for. Who do you think Shearer’s message about muslims being prone to violence was for?

                    • McFlock

                      “Many thought at the time that it was politically naive of him to say such things, but again, it depends who the message is for. Who do you think Shearer’s message about muslims being prone to violence was for?”

                      That wasn’t the message I detected. So I guess is wasn’t for people who generally try to see if there’s any realistic reason for outrage before displaying it.

                      Maybe Shearer was simply pointing out that having a racist MP won’t make us friends in the Middle East, and might make us a few enemies? But once again Shearer can’t mention an issue without it apparently being an intentional dogwhistle.

                      Option B is that people are going well out of their way to detect cause for offense.

                    • felixviper

                      It’s possible.

                      It’s also possible that he’s just not very good at making a concise, unambiguous statement.

                      I guess one day we’ll have enough data to figure out if there’s a pattern to support either of those hypotheses.

                  • The Fan Club

                    Ex-UNAMA worker in let’s-avoid-violence in Middle East shocker!

              • Colonial Weka

                Cf to Harawira –

                ” Mana Party leader Hone Harawira said Mr Prosser’s comments were racist, and without basis in fact.

                “It’s kinda like saying that no 19- to 35-year-old white guys should be allowed to go anywhere because they cause so many wars around the world.”

                Lol.

            • 4wardthinking 11.1.1.1.1.2

              It’s all very well saying Shearer will led a Labour/ Green coalition but he’s not exactly shining when it comes to actually having some talent on the front benches – still the same old, same old. Even Key has managed to gain the march on him when it comes to bold moves (and that’s saying something). The vindictive way he has treated Cunliffe is rediculous. When Shearer starts pulling the party together, we will start winning!

        • Colonial Weka 11.1.1.2

          How private was the private vote? Did some MPs abstain instead of voting because they feared repercussions?

        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.3

          And, encouragingly, 100% of caucus endorsed the democratic process the members and affiliates wanted and voted in at conference.

          most MPs voted for just a little democracy (eg they supported the thresholds at 50% or 60%). Only a minority of MPs voted for the 40% threshold.

        • alwyn 11.1.1.4

          Can someone who really knows what the Labour Constitution changes were please explain one thing for me.
          Did Shearer have to get 60% of the caucus to vote for him to keep his position without a party-wide vote or did 40% have to vote against him to force a vote?
          In the first case an abstention would be just the same as a no vote wouldn’t it?
          In the second case it wouldn’t but there would surely have to be another candidate who stood against him.

    • Treetop 11.2

      “Everyone in Labour knows Grant Robertson will become the next leader. The only question is when.”

      In August is my guess, six months to see if there is a poll improvement and then the chop or resignation as leader by Shearer.

      The link you supplied says it all, how united the Labour caucus are over Shearer being the leader.

    • felixviper 11.3

      Is this the “almost certainly unanimous” vote we heard so much about?

  12. Rogue Trooper 12

    well, now that I have a telly, Shearer continues to underwhelm; maybe I’m phylum and xylem after all ;)

  13. felixviper 13

    Assuming you’ve replied to the wrong comment there, but anyhoo…

    “for all the reasons I’ve given above” would seem to me to include the bit about how Ed is starting to grow on voters, and how the polls are showing it.

    No?

    edit: This was a response to a comment from TRP which appears to be missing.

    [lprent: He probably deleted it. It can be done in the editing window. ]

    • Te Reo Putake 13.1

      I replied in the wrong place, felix, and deleted it. It’s now a bit further down the page.

      And in answer to your question, a qualified yes. Both leaders are starting to gain some small traction in the preferred PM polls, but both have a long way to go. In terms of the UK poll support for Labour, it really has a lot to do with voter disgust with both the other parties, rather than anything Miliband is doing. But then, its probably easier to gain support in a 3 way, FPP contest where the other 2 parties form the current Government than it is in a 7 way MMP contest. In the UK situation, Labour is the default depository of the anti-coalition vote, though UKIP are also hurting the Tories by taking the important taxi driver, white van man and Little Englander vote.

  14. Colonial Weka 14

    NRT gets blogpost title of the week:

    “Labour: As useless as a proverbial useless thing”

    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2013/02/labour-as-useless-as-proverbial-useless.html

  15. vto 15

    A pondering… one tane huna and meself just had another ding dong over when someone becomes a hater rather than a person with simply a different view.

    When does someone become a hater? You know, like a hater of homosexuals. A hater of old white men. A hater of the yellow peril. A hater of pakeha. When? Because as far as I can see there remain so many issues where there is blanket hypocrisy e.g. supporting of separate institutions… is this bigotry of a form? Or is it not? Or another example, supporting of inclusive institutions … is it this that is a form of prejudice? Or does it depend on what side of the political specturm your view apparently stems from according to political fashion of the day?

    When does racism exist? When does ageism exist? When does any form of bigotry exist? It is such a mish-mash of varying rules and determinants that it renders so many of these accusations and labels empty and useless. There is no consistency. Or is there? Where is it? Who has it?

  16. Pascal's bookie 17

    Anyone care to argue that Shearer handled this well?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10864924

    Never mind! He’s getting Better!!

    Except he’s not.

    How hard is it to respond to a bunch of bigited crap from a NZ First idiot without saying ‘Muslims would riot if he said it over there’. ffs.

    • felixviper 17.1

      Jeebers. The actual words he used are worse than your summary.

      The worst part is that he was quoted alongside Peters, Key, Banks and Harawira and he still looks a tool in comparison. ffs indeed.

      • McFlock 17.1.1

        Peters saying there’s an element of truth? Sheesh.

        Nice chuckle at Banks’ describing someone else as “crazy” and “bizarre”.

        Harawira had the best response I reckon, and the journos in the lobby chat with Key on tv1 website basically led him to the desired lines.

        • felixviper 17.1.1.1

          Yeah I liked that too, and Banks’ weirdness.

          Peters’ response ain’t far from what Shearer said really. All that stuff about how the muslims would turn violent if you said that in the middle east etc, that’s pretty much just another way of saying there’s an element of truth to it.

          • McFlock 17.1.1.1.1

            I disagree. Peters was saying that there was an element of truth that muslim males pose a significant risk to air transport (when apparently Boeing batteries are more dangerous). Basically the only non-Muslim terrorist he knew of was McVeigh.

            Shearer was simply pointing out that sometimes cartoons can clock off riots in the MidEast.

            • Pascal's bookie 17.1.1.1.1.1

              But Shearer should know that cartoons that insult the prophet have sparked riots. This is not like that. All he did was reinforce that those crazy Muslims riot at the drop of a hat over there in wogistan.

              • McFlock

                Firstly, I should point out that the cartoon reference was mine, not Shearer’s. Shearer referred to the Middle East.

                I’m sure that the cartoon-related riots were the only incidents of civil disorder from North Africa to the Indus in the past decade.

        • gobsmacked 17.1.1.2

          But this perfectly illustrates Shearer’s problem. He’s hopeless at politics.

          I am quite certain that David Shearer the person – the guy who has worked in all those places, alongside so many people of different faiths, ethnicities etc – would be genuinely offended by Prosser’s comments. He’s thinking “What a racist sh*t”.

          But Shearer the politician thinks he has to second-guess and run it by whoever the handlers are and generally dilute and diminish his own real response. He condemns, but … as always, with qualifiers. Every time he speaks, he qualifies.

          According to NRT he couldn’t even say that he wouldn’t have Prosser in his team. But I bet he wouldn’t have Prosser in his team … he’s just been brainwashed into thinking he mustn’t say so. Or say anything that would interfere with the Sleepwalk Strategy.

          FFS David, stop this. You lose both ways. The liberals and left only think less of you, the so-called centre (conservatives?) just think you’re a wimp.

          • McFlock 17.1.1.2.1

            Projection.
            Just because you or I think in obscenities it doesn’t mean Shearer does.

            And did KEY say Prosser couldn’t be in HIS government? If Shearer had said it he would be arrogant and delusional. He doesn’t so he gets flak. Key doesn’t, not a whisper. Shearer’s already losing both ways, right here.

            • gobsmacked 17.1.1.2.1.1

              *bangs head on desk*

              Shearer can’t determine what Key says. Or what the media say about what Key says. But (and this really, really isn’t hard …) –

              Shearer can determine what HE says. Jessica Mutch asked him a question. It wasn’t a fair question, it was a “Gotcha” if you like, but if Shearer can only cope with what’s fair, he should quit politics right now.

              Do you seriously have any difficulty in deciding on the spot how to answer a question about standing Prosser down? Of course you don’t. Nor do I. Nor would anybody with an ounce of political smarts.

              He is lost.

              [lprent: I am getting concerned about your head banging. Is there anything we can do to help? :twisted: Personally at present I find that standing directly in front of te aircond….]

              • McFlock

                Who in the blogosphere has criticised key for not ruling prosser out of government, was my point. But it seems to be a drumbeat against the guy the drum-circle seem to think will never be IN government, anyway.

                Mutch with a gotcha? What are you referring to? The only searches I’ve found that quote Shearer are print – got a link? Or am I to wait for 6pm?

                • felixviper

                  He couldbe in govt McF, but he’s doing his darndest to avoid it so far.

                  • McFlock

                    Which still means issuing statements about who he’d govern with is arrogant to the point of delusion. Or it’s a serious omission by a probable future prime minister. Damned both ways.

                    • gobsmacked

                      He doesn’t have to issue statements. He simply has to respond to questions. Exactly what he’ll be required to do in the election campaign, without benefit of minders 24/7.

                      For the Twitter reaction, here’s a good starting point:

                      https://twitter.com/publicaddress

                      The relevance here is that this is part of a consistent pattern. Shearer is not faced with a tough challenge, condemning Prosser. But he can only deal with the prepared line (Stage 1), not follow-ups (Stage 2). That tells us a lot about both his political instincts, and his underlying principles. Both are found wanting, frequently.

                      There’s no “drum beat” from many of those (like Russell Brown) who were annoyed on Twitter. The idea that Shearer’s critics are only a Standard few is a delusion.

                    • felixviper

                      Yeah, on current polling it probably would be arrogant.

                      But that’s where he should be now: Being taken seriously as a contender for the top job, articulating an alternate vision for the country, describing the kind of govt he’ll lead.

                      @gobsmacked: I’m sure it’s just a one-off stumble, he won’t be like this all the time, he’s stared down warlords, his media training will kick in any day now, he’s only like this when there are cameras or people around etc etc.

                    • McFlock

                      fuck twitter – where’s the interview with the gotcha question you’re talking about?

                      @FV:
                      At the moment he’s not. And if Labour were polling 55%, people here would be calling him arrogant and jumped up.

                    • felixviper

                      Meh, can’t really argue with what you reckon people would say given this or that.

                    • McFlock

                      You could point out how my characterisation is completely inconsistent with the measured and rational tone with which issues are logically discussed whenever Shearer’s name is mentioned. Good luck with that.

                    • felixviper

                      Yes, it’s getting quite difficult to criticise anything Shearer (or Labour) says without inviting quite irrational and emotional responses from certain commenters here.

                    • McFlock

                      You’d have a point if “mad barking at contrived slights” counted as “criticism”.

                    • felixviper

                      Oh I think there’s been plenty of decent criticism. You’re bound to get a bit of mad barking when all the decent criticism goes so unheeded for so long though.

                    • McFlock

                      chicken and egg syndrome again, I guess

      • Colonial Viper 17.1.2

        Trust the process and get on side guys, no more of this whining like bellyachers, victory will be ours in 2014!

    • bad12 17.2

      Cannot see anything wrong with the Shearer comment myself, if such a story became a feature of news in many of the Arab Muslim countries there is a likelihood of demonstrations being provoked…

  17. Scintilla 18

    @vto

    I thought you wound up that little ding dong rather well!

    Seems like the ground is always shifting as to what’s ‘a different opinion ‘ and what’s ‘enter derogatory name here’. I get fed up with the race to label someone and box them into a place where they have no choice but to hold their ground. What do you (as in anybody) want – to “win the contest” ? Have a frank exchange of views? Learn something? Bring someone round to your point of view? If you want to alter someone’s perception, giving them no option but to defend themselves at all costs results in a ‘not achieved.’

    It’s interesting how one’s own views get challenged in unexpected ways. A couple of years ago, I was in a large workplace where I was one of the 5% minority by ethnicity and gender. That place fractured in ways I never expected, much of it was destructive, cut-throat and detrimental to the people it was meant to serve. It was very ugly and a timely warning that greed, ambition and egotism reside everywhere. And that for me is the crux of the matter – the best ideals can be subverted by ugliness.

    I like authenticity. Where the walk matches the talk.

    I’m very fond of the word ‘and’. Like, I think there’s room in the Labour Party for Louisa Wall AND John Tamihere. Personally, neither is my cup of tea, but both voices need to be heard. Room in the Green Party for Russel Norman AND David Cunliffe – yeah, I know, in my dreams.

    • vto 18.1

      Indeed, thanks for the feedback. You are especially right about the race to pigeonhole someone and the effect, often cumulative, that that has on healthy debate and inclusiveness – it does the opposite, as it did. For no gain.

      This entire issue around pigeonholing and labelling and hypocrisy is on the watch list …..

    • Tim 18.2

      Well he was (DC I mean) frolicking/engaging with a few Green Party types on the Rainbow Warrior today so ….. funnier things have happened at sea

  18. marsman 19

    Been trying to find an online copy of Tom Scott’s cartoon of Steven Joyce sicking a turtle onto Novopay in Sat 9 Feb DomPost. Stuff have conveniently not shown it, nor is it on their Tom Scott page. It’s sad/funny and spot on. Can anyone supply a link please?

  19. bad12 20

    Rob Oram, one of my favorites when commenting on either business or economics got around to being really circumspect when discussing the Mainzeal collapse on His regular RadioNZ National nine to noon spot today,

    Rob got as far as pointing out that RichinaPacific the Richard Yan investment vehicle which was the majority shareholder in the collapsed Mainzeal had been de-listed from the New Zealand share-market
    along with Mainzeal and RichinaPacific was then registered in the Bahamas,(a known tax haven),

    Here’s one for Rob, and would tend to suggest RichinaPacific in the guise of a company registered in an extremely low tax jurisdiction being the depository for the monies from Mainzeal construction being a vehicle for claiming losses in a higher taxed jurisdiction,

    December 2012, Revenue Minister, (the Hairdo from Ohariu), Peter Dunne publicly announces that He will be closing the loophole in the New Zealand tax laws which allows multi-national companies to declare losses in New Zealand and ship the profits off-shore to be declared in a low tax inviroment,

    December 2012,Jenny Shiply along with a number of others quit the board of Mainzeal Construction…

  20. Bully Bully 21

    If Johnny smart arse had worked in NZ for any great length of time before his need for greed completely took over and became Shylock he might have a small idea as to what NZ is loosing thru his tight wad policies

  21. Treetop 22

    Crown Law spent $441,000 fighting Susan Couch suing corrections; as if the woman has not been through enough already nearly dying. RNZ put in an OIA request.

    • alwyn 22.1

      Yes and the awful affair has been going on since 2005!
      It appears to have been settled only because the Corrections department got a new boss.
      For a change I am on the side of Garth McVicar on this one.

  22. lprent 23

    Ok. Starting to get close. Two bugs, one (minor) enhancement, and a occasional repaint issue to go on the project. At 32 months, one product already released, a heart attack, and more than 4500 revisions in svn – I might be able to slow down from coding for a while and actually write some posts….

    I’m sure that politicians will be looking forward to that. :twisted:

    • RedLogix 23.1

      svn = makes life worth living

      But congrats … I never picked up on what the project was but I imagine it’s been all consuming. In my own technical space I’ve been pretty committed and full on myself this last year or so… finally got to a decent break myself this week.

      But how the hell did you do all that and run this place too Lynn?

      • lprent 23.1.1

        Carefully

        Mostly over the last two years by steadily dropping everything that sucked up too much time. The Labour work I dropped. Effectively stopped writing posts and cut back on comments here, but maintained tech and moderation. Driving to work rather than buses/walking (saves about an hour a day but drops the exercise way back). And above all, using an iPad in bed for blogging and reading (kicked reading speed up by about 50%)

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