Open mike 12/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 12th, 2013 - 181 comments
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181 comments on “Open mike 12/06/2013 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    12 June 2013 at 6:25 am

    Come to New Zealand Edward you will be safe here.

    For his safety and ours, the name of Edward Snowden should not be allowed to drop out of the public memory.

    Already, after an initial flurry of interest, (lasting all of one day), Snowden’s name has been pushed down the media memory hole. And is no longer mentioned.

    With a reputation for democracy and freedom, New Zealand should be in the lead of countries offering Edward Snowden political asylum.

    As well as being the right thing to do;

    A gesture like this would hugely lift this country’s profile in the world as an honest broker. Such a courageous and humanitarian act, would earn us international respect as an outlier of democracy freedom.

    Since abandoning his life in Hawaii last month, Snowden has gone into hiding in Hong Kong, saying he feared he could be captured by the CIA, another foreign government or Asian organised crime gangs.

    “That’s a fear I’ll live under for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be,” he said in the video.

    In his secretive dealings with the Washington Post, he took the codename Verax – Latin to describe a truth teller – the paper said.

    “He’s very intelligent, calm, (but) always scared that someone would knock on the door and he’d be taken away,” said Ewen MacAskill, one of the Guardian journalists who worked on the story.

    Snowden expressed some interest in seeking asylum in Iceland. He checked out of his hotel in Hong Kong on Monday and his whereabouts were not known.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/8780328/Who-is-Edward-Snowden

    • kiwicommie 1.1
      12 June 2013 at 7:45 am

      Why would the National party bite the hand that feeds it. According to the leaks National are just a fifth column of the neo-con, extreme right faction of the Republican party.

      • Professor Longhair 1.1.1
        12 June 2013 at 11:05 am

        “Why would the National party bite the hand that feeds it? According to the leaks National are just a fifth column of the neo-con, extreme right faction of the Republican party.”

        National is certainly the party of the toady and the craven coward.

        But so is Labour: don’t forget who it was that persecuted Ahmed Zaoui just over a decade ago.

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 7:30 pm

          Ah yes. I have friends still pissed off about that. War on terrorism indeed.

    • karol 1.2
      12 June 2013 at 8:17 am

      Surely you jest? Why would Snowden come to Key’s Orwellian NZ, where anyone can be spied upon?

      • Jenny 1.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 7:29 pm

        No joke karol.

        The Prime Minister is afraid that just such an eventuality could occur. And to head of this very possibility,being they US toady he is, the PM has publicly tried to warn Snowden away.

        Key: Snowden not welcome in New Zealand

        Prime Minister John Key says American whistleblower Edward Snowden is not welcome here….

        Key said today the former security contractor did not meet the requirements for asylum and it was ridiculous to suggest he would.

        “He wouldn’t be welcome,” he said.

        Key couldn’t rule out Snowden coming to New Zealand under another immigration category because he was not facing criminal charges.

        But the prime minister expected the Government would oppose any asylum application.

        “I can’t see why we’d want him to turn up,” he said.

        KATE CHAPMAN
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8787477/Key-Snowden-not-welcome-in-New-Zealand Fairfax News 12 June 2013

        However this disgusting toady does not speak for all New Zealanders, not even a majority of us.

        And Key and his secret police mates aren’t the only ones who have a say here.

        I would say to Edward Snowden, don’t listen to John Key;

        Listen to Te Whanau a Apanui, send an email to Kim Dotcom, ask him what he thinks. Ask the tens of thousands of New Zealanders who marched to stop the Nacts raping schedule 4 land, if John Key speaks for New Zealanders. Ask Amed Zouie if the vast majority of New Zealanders make strangers welcome here, despite some of our leaders making biased and prejudiced public statements against him.

        New Zealanders of good will who value democracy and freedoom will welcome Edward Snowden as a global hero for freedom and truth.

        Edward you are not safe in China.

        Edward you will not even be safe in Australia.

        If you can make it here you will be safe.

        You have my promise.

        We will look after you.

        You may even give you a job. Kim Dotcom needs people with your IT skills, he may even put you up in his mansion till you get on your feet.

        NZ is furtherest from the reach of the Northern Hemisphere superpowers than any other nation on earth.

        Our remoteness makes you safer for a start.

        New Zealand is a small country surrounded by hundreds of miles of open ocean.

        New Zealand is small. The cliche is everyone knows everyone else. This is not quite true. But nothing can happen to you here that everyone wouldn’t know, and be able to identify those responsible.

        If you doubt what I say refer to the Rainbow Warrior bombers who murdered Nando Fereira in New Zealand. The security services and the police let these terrorists slip through their hands. It was average everyday New Zealanders who identified Mafar and Prieur, and found them out leaving them no where to go. If it had been left solely up to the police and the state forces they would have walked away free.

        The same will happen to anyone who dares touch you while you are in this country.

        Finally the traitors and toadies that John Key speaks for are a tiny minority. Fhose who favour democracy and freedom, and who respect courage and self sacrifiice in the cause of truth, are the vast majority. (I suspect this true for most countries, but for a number of factors those of us who feel this way here, have a greater say.)

        New Zealand has a reputation for protecting and defending the underdog. Ask Nelson Mandela or Desmond Tutu.

        Edward If you can get here you will be treated like the hero you are.

        Green Party co-leader Russel Norman said he couldn’t understand why anyone would not want Snowden here.

        “He was a whistleblower inside the organisation, he made a moral decision I think most people on planet Earth would agree with the morality of his decision,” Norman said.

        KATE CHAPMAN
        http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8787477/Key-Snowden-not-welcome-in-New-Zealand Fairfax News 12 June 2013

        And finally the last word from the Prime Minister who makes himself look ridiculous ,relating to the revelations released by Edward Snowden:

        Key has also been asked about the presence of US spy software company Palantir which has established a base in Wellington.

        He said he knew who they were but didn’t speak for the company.

        Key wasn’t asked if he spoke for Palantir, he was asked if he was aware of their presence.

        Why would John Key possibly think it would need to be stated that, he didn’t speak for a US spy agency?

        What an idiot, what a traitor.

        He should stop fouling this country’s international reputation and scuttle back to his own luxurious ‘safe haven’ in Hawaii and leave New Zealander to rest of us who love it and who don’t divide our loyalties between Wall Street and Washington.

        • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 7:31 pm

          Your judgement in this matter is ridiculous and dangerously flawed.

          • Jenny 1.2.1.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 8:01 pm

            But you say that about all my opinions.

            • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1.1.1
              12 June 2013 at 8:15 pm

              how’s the popular uprising in Syria going? I hear the Free Syria Army has a thing for the hearts of their opponents nowadays?

              • Jenny …
                13 June 2013 at 5:04 am

                I was too polite CV, to mention your past rabid cheerleading on this site for the mass murder and war crimes committed by the Syrian State against it’s own people. I had generously imagined that your admiration and support for Assad’s facist state was a grotesque mistake was a thing of the past, springing from your ignorance of Syria and the Arab world .

                It says more about you than the Syrian opposition, that in a sea of atrocities and war crimes, you zero in on one particular admittedly disgusting desecration of a dead Syrian soldiers body, (deliberately caught on video and distributed to intimidate Bashar Assad’s troops), and not on the many cases of mass murder of innocents from the air by your hero.

                You are not the leftist democrat you posit you are.

                • Jenny …
                  13 June 2013 at 6:11 am

                  ‘
                  The war in Syria has been going on for more than two years now. And there is no sign of it ending soon.
                  People like Colonial Viper who has never been to Syria, and who racistly dismiss the Arab Spring as a conspiracy by the Western Powers and the CIA. May wonder how on earth the Syrian conflict could have lasted so long and become so protracted and brutal.
                  At present the rebels seem to be getting the worst of it. But they won’t surrender, they can’t. Even before the massive slaughter started, 30 thousand Syrian citizens were “disappeared” by the Syrian State in the preceding year, and this was before the people started fighting back.
                  A defeat for the rebels will mean massive extermination on a scale not matched during this conflict, when the rebels are able to, at least manage to defend themselves and are still managing to hold their own in what is a war of extermination. This battle has become an existential one for the rebels. If they fight they might be killed by the regime, if they don’t fight they will be killed by the regime. On the other side of the conflict, Basha Assad’s exploitation of sectarian divisions to weld a minority religious sect to his cause, has also made this an existential struggle for them as well. These fighters know full well the atrocities they have committed on Basha’s behalf, and the likely fate they may suffer because of it.
                  Another factor that has prolonged this conflict, is the West’s growing publicly expressed fear of the rebels. Whether true or not, Western media, more and more are coming to depict the rebels who spontaneously took up arms against the regime as being primarily Al Qaeda militants. There is some truth in this, as these elements have been attracted to this struggle against this Western ally. The Islamist Al Nusra Front have the most experienced fighters and are the most well equipped, of the rebel factions. Coming as many of them do, from the war zones of Afghanistan and Iraq. While the secular rebel forces are being left high and dry by everyone. Many of the secular fighters are defecting to Al Nusra. They are doing this, rather than die starved of weapons and ammunition, and basic supplies, defenceless in the face of Basha Assad’s military machine.
                  But Al Nusra is not quite as black and white as it has been portrayed in the West. Instead of being a monolithic Al Qaida front, as depicted by the West. Al Nusra has been described by secular Syrian leaders as being made up of many different fractions and strands. (And they are more likely to know than one eyed, frightened western journalists interviewing their typwriters in Washington, or London. Worried that the whole applecart of Western domination is being toppled over.)

                • Jenny …
                  13 June 2013 at 6:22 am

                  ‘
                  What has been described as the Turkish Spring has begun.
                  Turkey is another majority Islamic country.
                  I must ask Colonial Viper:
                  CV; Do you also consider this popular people’s movement to also be a US CIA plot to undermine a Heroic anti Western moderate democracy?

                  Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is facing a Syria moment of his own. Does he back down in the face of popular though peaceful mass protest, or does he crack down with brutal force, and risk creating even more resistance?

                  Erdogan should take as warning, the lesson of Syria.
                  Taking a hard line against peaceful protesters with violent repression, may quell the unrest. But just as likely it may create more unrest, outraging even moderate citizens who will be moved by their outrage to join the protests against the regime.

                  (Every budding autocrat around the world, who would choose repression over finding solutions to popular grievances ought to take note.)

                  Attacking Western criticism of the crackdown in Turkey, and justifying the violence against peaceful unarmed protesters, the prime minister of Turkey was quoted as saying they took their guide from the US government’s crushing of the Occupy Wall Street protests.

                  Despite Western government’s loud hurumphing at this accusation, the links are there.

                  The increasing turn to autocracy and repression by governments globally is not a coincidence. Governing authorities around the world know better than anyone that the twin dangers of financial crisis and climate collapse are undermining their legitimacy. Many are choosing to counter that loss of popular legitimacy to their rule by replacing it with repression.

                  But more repression creates more resistance to repression, and even less legitimacy for the rulers
                  .
                  Finally:
                  John Key should be one of those autocratic leaders who should take note; The massive increase in jail terms and fines against protesters trying to protect the environment will not deter them. The increase in state repression will not stop protests against the rape of the environment by deep sea oil. Repression only creates more resistance, and more and greater protest. And what will you do then John?
                  When the prisons are full of political prisoners and still people are protesting against the looting of the Seabed and Forshore on behalf of foreign multinationals?

                  What will you do next?

        • karol 1.2.1.2
          12 June 2013 at 7:38 pm

          Jenny, all the article does is to confirm my point: i.e. why would Snowden want to come to NZ as it is at the moment? Why would any Kiwi seriously suggest it, knowing Snowden would just be handed over to the US agencies, by NZ’s agencies?

          • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.2.1
            12 June 2013 at 7:52 pm

            After arrival on the Auckland airport tarmac, Snowden would be escorted off his plane by armed NZ police in front of all other seated passengers, taken to a nearby disused gate, handed over to American officials, marched onboard an unmarked private jet, and after it was given priority clearance to take off, that would be that for Snowden.

            PM John Key: “Not only has the man committed serious crimes against our allies the United States and potentially aided terrorists around the world, but he was also without doubt a massive risk to our national security simply by being in this country. We did the right thing today by ensuring that he faces justice for the crimes he committed in the United States.”

            cue statement from the US embassy on how valuable a partner in international security NZ is.

            • Populuxe1 1.2.1.2.1.1
              12 June 2013 at 9:42 pm

              Such a rich fantasy life you have, CV. One to many James Bond movies, perhaps?

          • Jenny 1.2.1.2.2
            12 June 2013 at 8:04 pm

            Maybe karol, you might like to suggest a country where Snowden would be safer?

            • Pascal's bookie 1.2.1.2.2.1
              12 June 2013 at 8:12 pm

              One which doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the US and whose government’s security services aren’t tied at the hip to the NSA?

            • karol 1.2.1.2.2.2
              12 June 2013 at 8:16 pm

              Why? I’m sure Snowden and his aids are well onto that.

              And what Pb said.

          • Jenny 1.2.1.2.3
            13 June 2013 at 5:20 am

            For the answer to this question karol. You only have to see what a difficult time the authorities have had in handing Amed Zouie or Kim Dotcom over to their tormenters and jailers. To know that New Zealand is still a democratic country that protects civil rights and jurisprudence.

            Edward Snowden would be safe here.

    • Pascal's bookie 1.3
      12 June 2013 at 8:34 am

      Jenny, I’ve read at least ten stories from today already on Snowden. It’s a pretty shallow Memory Hole!

      And NZ has an extradition treaty with the US. He is a US citizen who has most likley committed a crime under US law. Our courts would be no protection for him as they would grant extradition.

      • Pascal's bookie 1.3.1
        12 June 2013 at 8:42 am

        I just checked the Treaty ( available here: http://newzealand.usembassy.gov/us_treaties.html ) and it’s arguable that he might be safe here. But it would still be a huge risk given the politics of it. And the chances of NZ ‘offerring political asylum’ are nil.

        I think it might be nice if we did, but it’s still just gesture politics. To get real international advantage we should pass laws protecting privacy such that it is seen as an economic and political advantage to have companies based here. Our govt should be saying that we do not allow NSA or others to snoop, and that we actively take steps to prevent them. But again, chances: nil.

      • Pasupial 1.3.2
        12 June 2013 at 8:48 am

        Jenny’s just got to be first to post to open mike again? But today really takes the cake for wishful thinking! PB neatly sums up the glaring flaws in her suggestion for me.

        • Colonial Viper 1.3.2.1
          12 June 2013 at 10:03 am

          We’re an interlocking part of the NSA network. Snowden would be a fool to come anywhere close to Australia or NZ.

      • Jenny 1.3.3
        12 June 2013 at 6:51 pm

        Jenny, I’ve read at least ten stories from today already on Snowden.

        Pascal’s bookie

        Of course you have Pb. And to prove you are not full of it. You have put up the full ten links to the stories you have already read today, to prove it. (or not).

        • Pascal's bookie 1.3.3.1
          12 June 2013 at 7:31 pm

          Turn it up, there was no need for me to go through my browser history and find the links to the stories I’d read.

          The existence of the stories is readily available to anyone with a browser that can search news sites.

          You made a claim:

          Already, after an initial flurry of interest, (lasting all of one day), Snowden’s name has been pushed down the media memory hole. And is no longer mentioned.

          Which is just flat out false. Where’s your link to a search engine result showing no mentions of Snowden in the last few hours? Just to prove you’re not full of it?

          Ridiculous right? But the same!

          Care to test those two claims in a search and see what happens?

          • Colonial Viper 1.3.3.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 7:36 pm

            Jenny’s just living up to her self styled reputation of integrity and role as the international conscience of The Standard.

          • karol 1.3.3.1.2
            12 June 2013 at 7:43 pm

            It’s all only a couple of google.news clicks away.

            PS; along with the totally unnecessary “pole-dancer” mentions.

            • Jenny 1.3.3.1.2.1
              12 June 2013 at 9:08 pm

              It’s all only a couple of google.news clicks away.

              karol

              And its true. They say that you can find anything on the internet. Annd that is it’s greatest strength. Nothing can be hidden or suppressed any longer. Even across borders and frontiers, even during a war.

              CV, maybe you and karol are right and my comment missed the mark.

              But look at all the mainstream news sites and you will see that the Snowden story is either completely missing or pushed way down the news cycle.

              Stuff.co.nz for instance had nothing on Snowden this morning.

              For interest I checked out the NZ Herald website. The only story on Snowden was a related story on the sudden boom in sales of the novel 1984 by George Orwell.

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890085

              It is interesting that many people can relate to the message in this book. The all pervasive surveillance described and the outrageous mainstream media lies promulgated as truth.

              “We are at war with East Asia, we have always been at war with East Asia”

              “We are opposed to Saddam Hussein, we have always been opposed to Saddam Hussein”

              This book should be updated and remade as a movie. The two way interactive communication screen described by Orwell that could never be turned off. That was everywhere and let the authorities peer into every aspect of your work and private life. He could have been describing a dystopian version of the internet and cell phone technology. Even the story of Peter Dunne has echoes of 1984. Where Dunne’s illicit email flirting with Andrea Vance is used to bring him down. Just as electronic snooping into Winston Smith’s illicit romantic affair with Julia is used to destroy them both.

              Winston Peters could take the part of O’Brian the smooth talking and deeply corrupt bully and torturer with secret links to the government and state, who gloats with sadistic pleasure in bringing down Winston Smith.

              But I suppose it is a movie that we will never see, cutting to close to the bone, and way too critical of authority..

          • Jenny 1.3.3.1.3
            12 June 2013 at 9:37 pm

            Come on Pascal, I would still like to see the ten links you claimed to have read before your comment at 8:34am today.

            What are you, chicken? Cluck, cluck, cluck.

            You must had a very busy morning as by 8:42am you also claim to have checked out the US/NZ relating to extradition as it might affect Snowden.

            Pascal you either make all this up, or have an interest in Edward Snowden bordering on compulsive.

            Haven’t you got a job to go to?

            • Pascal's bookie 1.3.3.1.3.1
              12 June 2013 at 9:53 pm

              By 830 I’ve been at work for nearly 4 hours Jenny.

              I read, in my work, several hundred news stories a day. Following news stories that interest me is not a problem.

              You claimed there were no stories on him. I simply noted that that was not actually true.

              I’m going to bed.

              • Jenny …
                12 June 2013 at 10:00 pm

                They must be good then. Still waiting for those ten stories.

                • Colonial Viper …
                  12 June 2013 at 10:09 pm

                  Your demands are absurd Jenny. The links from PB above show that the NZ Herald covered the story far more than you realised.

                  And the Guardian, The Huffington Post, and the New York Times have all run major stories and/or editorials on the Snowden stories today.

                  Further, PB sounds like a professional intensive consumer of news reporting, while you are not.

                  • Jenny …
                    13 June 2013 at 5:37 am

                    Your demands are absurd Jenny. The links from PB above show that the NZ Herald covered the story far more than you realised.

                    Colonial Viper

                    Indeed and the telling words here are; “far more than you realised.” Or probably any other ‘normal’ reader of the news would have realised either. But even you must admit CV that by his own admission Pascal’s bookie is an outlier when it comes to trawling the news feeds. What normal reader of the news would spend four hours of the morning and presumably the rest of the day combing the news to become aware of so many stories about the misdeeds of the secret intelligence community?

                    I bet that if you walked out onto any city street today and did a vox pop on everyone you met and asked them, Do you know who Edward Snowden is? Nine out of ten, maybe more, would have no idea

        • Rosetinted 1.3.3.2
          12 June 2013 at 7:56 pm

          Oh don’t be silly Jenny, time for a holiday for you. Too much thinking drives people crazy.

          • Jenny 1.3.3.2.1
            12 June 2013 at 9:16 pm

            “Being in a minority, even in a minority of one, did not make you mad. There was truth and there was untruth, and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad.”
            ― George Orwell, 1984

            “You are a slow learner, Winston.”
            “How can I help it? How can I help but see what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.”
            “Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.”
            ― George Orwell, 1984

    • James 1.4
      12 June 2013 at 10:00 am

      If he has broken the law – he should be held to account.

      So send him back to the US I say.

      • Colonial Viper 1.4.1
        12 June 2013 at 10:06 am

        Bullshit. Its only the law if everyone is held to the same standard. And at the moment corporations, the wealthy and the powerful in the US can and have been doing whatever they like, and getting away with it under the rubric of “war against terrorism”

        EDIT the irony of Russia offering to consider asylum to protect a conscientious objector from the state security apparatus

        • James 1.4.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 11:07 am

          No – thats bullshit. If he broke the law of his own country when he was there – then he should be held to account.

          regardless if you agree with what he did, or did not do, should not come into it.

          Blaming “the man” just makes you sound …well….silly.

          • Pascal's bookie 1.4.1.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 11:21 am

            So we should send people from Iran back to face the music if they broke any Iranian laws?

          • weka 1.4.1.1.2
            12 June 2013 at 11:24 am

            You really don’t understand the concept of whistleblower, do you?

          • vto 1.4.1.1.3
            12 June 2013 at 11:34 am

            James, why are you so concerned about the application of laws that have been implemented for the purpose of securing power to large organisations who already have more power than they know what to do with and routinely use and abuse that power (i.e. break the law, as they have admitted if you didn’t know) to further their own ends to the detriment of the manwoman in the street?

            Your approach is touching and naive in the extreme imo.

          • Colonial Viper 1.4.1.1.4
            12 June 2013 at 11:36 am

            No – thats bullshit. If he broke the law of his own country when he was there – then he should be held to account.

            It’s only the rule of law if the law holds everyone to account equally. Don’t you see that? Because otherwise it’s merely a tool of state repression. The classic case at the moment is the trial of Private Manning. His defence is not even allowed to present any evidence or testimony critical to understanding his motives and his rationale. It’s a show trial in other words.

            In the USA, the law is only applied to targets of the Govt, whereas friends of the Government, banksters and other, get off scott free.

            Further, Snowden is a no-one. It’s his revelations of what politicians, the government and intelligence machine has been doing behind all our backs, unconstitutionally and without public knowledge, which is the real story.

            I notice they even took down the head of the CIA, Patreous, this year.

            • Rosetinted 1.4.1.1.4.1
              12 June 2013 at 11:55 am

              Here’s a little Poem James on what happens to the Disobedient. And the Disobedient one was Never Seen Again. This demonstrates how one should never do anything that isn’t permitted by authorities, who know best about everything.
              http://ingeb.org/songs/jamesjam.html

              Disobedience (A.A.Milne)
              James James Morrison’s Mother
              Said to herself, said she:
              “I can get right down
              to the end of the town
              and be back in time for tea.”
              King John
              Put up a notice,
              “LOST or STOLEN or STRAYED!
              JAMES JAMES MORRISON’S MOTHER
              SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN MISLAID.
              LAST SEEN
              WANDERING VAGUELY:
              QUITE OF HER OWN ACCORD,
              SHE TRIED TO GET DOWN
              TO THE END OF THE TOWN –
              FORTY SHILLINGS REWARD!”
              (For those attuned sensitively to capitals, they appear this way in the poem on the internet.)

          • Polish Pride 1.4.1.1.5
            12 June 2013 at 6:51 pm

            One who breaks an unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.

            Martin Luther King, Jr.

      • Jenny 1.4.2
        12 June 2013 at 7:52 pm

        If he has broken the law – he should be held to account.

        James

        And in your opinion James, if the GCSB has broken the law – should they be held to account?

        I wonder James if you are one of those right wing hypocrites who fears anyone defies authority and is prepared to risk everything for truth, while at the same time covering for the secret agencies that flout the laws of our democracy and illegally spy on us all like we are criminals.

  2. Paul 2
    12 June 2013 at 7:36 am

    Hekia Parata made to look like the Minister of Cliche by Kim Hill.
    Had no answers to her questions, except repeating her press release over and over again.
    What an incompetent minister!

    • mickysavage 2.1
      12 June 2013 at 7:44 am

      Yep the questioning was exquisite and Kim put the contradictions in National’s position to Parata and they went completely over Parata’s head.

      So a miniscule improvement in unmoderated statistics is trumpeted as vindication of National Standards even though it showed us something that was known already and there is no plan for what to do next. What a mess …

    • CnrJoe 2.2
      12 June 2013 at 7:47 am

      but according to brian edwards shes a stellar performer! listen again!

      …..When she returned to the green room to collect her belongings I said to her, “That was absolutely brilliant”…..Finally, has she the capacity to stand up to media scrutiny, to look after herself in probing media interviews? Well, if the interview with Smalley is anything to go by, the answer to that has got be a resounding Yes…….

      http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz/2013/06/when-hekia-met-rachel-a-sometime-interviewers-perspective/

      btw – with Kim Hill on morning report I feel like radio is back in the morning – is Geoff away for a very very long time?

      • ianmac 2.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 9:33 am

        Afraid that Kim is expected for just 2 weeks on National Radio and this is her 2nd week. Pity.

        • phillip ure 2.2.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 12:14 pm

          nooo!!!!!

          ..i was holding my breath that she was back for good..

          ..i can’t listen to the other pairing..(far too polite for the job..)..and had just come back..!

          ..and why isn’t kim hill given her own telly-show again..?

          ..something along the lines of democracy now..

          ..where the interviewer is given enough room/time to be able to dig/roam widely..

          please..!..we need an intelligent mainstream political show..

          ..(and ‘la’ hill should be given to option of turning up in trackies..(‘make-up..?..bah..!’..)..should that be what it takes to get her to agree..)

          phillip ure..

          • phillip ure 2.2.1.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 12:32 pm

            and..is it too soon..?

            ..the funniest spook-trawling one-liner i have heard came in john olivers’ taking over of the daily show helm last nite..

            “..I’ll bet the amish are feeling pretty smug about now..”

            ..(b.t.w..oliver kicked arse..the show is a recommended-watch..very funny..)

            ..phillip ure..

          • ianmac 2.2.1.1.2
            12 June 2013 at 7:26 pm

            Kim on TV was not a success because she twitches and flings herself about – a lot! Which seems to make her nervous and less effective. TV people have to be pretty still because movements are exaggerated. Pity.

            • Rosetinted 2.2.1.1.2.1
              12 June 2013 at 8:10 pm

              ianmac
              Thanks for that. I had forgotten about Kim and her tv effect. She is too natural compared to the scaled down immobility of others. But compare her screen image to Graham Norton? In a more relaxed environment couldn’t her animation give vitality to her show? Interviewing interesting people on tv in a group like Graham Norton. Then the camera doesn’t linger on just her and the interviewee.

            • phillip ure 2.2.1.1.2.2
              12 June 2013 at 9:46 pm

              @ianmac..

              have you watched democracy now!..?..

              ..amy goodman is a lot like hill..the intellect shines thru..

              ..i still think hill should have another crack at it..

              ..i would love to see the faces of politicians etc as she peels them..

              ..maybe all she really needs to do is broadcast her sat morn show online..?

              ..that would be a good way to test the market-appetite..

              ..i’d be there..

              phillip ure..

              • Pasupial …
                12 June 2013 at 10:31 pm

                @ Phillip Ure

                Not to mention Juan Gonzales!..

                If there’s ever any big Latin American news; Democracy Now is the first site to which I go…

                Amy Goodman is a lot calmer than Kim Hill though: I guess after you’ve been the last journalist out of Timor Este as the Indonesian shock troops roll in, it takes a lot to phase you.

                • Clockie …
                  12 June 2013 at 10:55 pm

                  free vocab assist: phase = faze 🙂

                  ..and yes I’ve been a life-time fan of Kim Hill’s too. Best they’ve ever had, although I objectively think that like many of us her best days are in the rear view mirror.

  3. karol 3
    12 June 2013 at 7:56 am

    Why I don’t go to rugby matches and prefer to watch on TV at home.

    The last rugby match I went to was an ABs-England match at Twickenham. A couple of guys in front of us kept yelling “sheep shaggers” & “cheats” throughout the match. I could have put up with them calling it once or twice, but the mindless and unimaginative repetition was just unpleasant.

    But being subjected to homophobic chants and abuse would turn watching a match into a trial instead of being a bit of fun and entertainment. And then they pull out the “PC” justification. That excuse is well past its use-by date.

    • mac1 3.1
      12 June 2013 at 11:14 am

      The PC justification was also used in the ‘debate’ over the food in schools cartoons. The way I see PC is “proper conduct” or “polite consideration” and usage of the “PC” defence usually defends the opposite behaviour.

      A sort of “Prick’s Charter.”

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1
        12 June 2013 at 6:18 pm

        The way I see PC is “proper conduct” or “polite consideration” and usage of the “PC” defence usually defends the opposite behaviour.

        QFT

    • weka 3.2
      12 June 2013 at 11:35 am

      Eden Park spokeswoman Tracy Morgan said harassment of a patron would not be condoned and the men could have been evicted for that.

      But unless everyone else around Ms Spyksma was offended by the men’s slurs, they would likely not have been kicked out. Ms Morgan said it wasn’t Eden Park’s place to “be the PC police”.

      “If she’s saying that she was isolated and that it shouldn’t be acceptable, it’s not our job – I don’t believe – to try to move the cultural morals of society.”

      Ah rugby culture, good on ya.

      The lack of acknowledgement of the vulnerable situation the complainant was in once she spoke up is disturbing.

      The stadium has a text service where people can complain about any anti-social or offensive behaviour without them becoming a target.

      General manager of public affairs at New Zealand Rugby, Nick Brown, urged anyone with concerns about other patrons to alert security.

      That’s better. Can’t find the text number on the Eden Park website though.

      There is this piece of impenetrable information on complaints

      http://edenpark.co.nz/how-do-i/conditions-entry/

      • McFlock 3.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 12:32 pm

        University of Auckland psychology lecturer Danny Osborne has researched the relationship between participation in core sport, such as rugby, and homophobia.

        “That somebody can stand up for what’s right should be applauded.”

        Agree entirely with that statement – good on her for standing up in that environment. And shame on the spectators: the main antagonists, but also the rest of those in the area for not following her example of giving a damn.

        • Tigger 3.2.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 3:40 pm

          Ah, the good ole ‘PC’ hammer, used to smash anyone who stands up against a bully. Fuck you, Eden Park. I’m with Karol, I avoid rugby and this is one reason why. Very proud of these women, standing up to mean (drunk?) men is scary.

      • karol 3.2.2
        12 June 2013 at 7:18 pm

        On top of the vulnerable situation of the complainant: this game is supposed to be NZ’s national sport. Rugby stadiums get priority treatment from the government’s spend of tax payers’ money. So, are only some sections of the public considered to be part of this wonderful [/sarc] nation?

        • karol 3.2.2.1
          12 June 2013 at 7:27 pm

          PS: Oh. No. My mistake, rugby isn’t a game for women it seems.

          While quite a few Herald readers came to the abused wommen’s defense, some replied with the “get over yourselves” kind of comment addressed to the women. And then there was this reply:

          “Rugby is the mans domain you are just a guest.”

          So, where ever did I get the idea it was supposed to be the game for the whole nation?

  4. karol 4
    12 June 2013 at 7:59 am

    So there was a more detailed version of the Kitteridge report that was never released. Which one did Anderea Vance get to see?

    • Alanz 4.1
      12 June 2013 at 8:16 am

      There is enough information on public record, and also if the media’s life-cycle and good practices are appreciated, that point to an(other) earlier leak.

      If and when free, I might post something. (Off to work soon. Tony was looking so very pleased with himself yesterday. I wonder what colour and pattern tie he will be wearing today hehe.)

    • mickysavage 4.2
      12 June 2013 at 8:17 am

      I get the feeling Karol that Dunne is telling the truth, of sorts, when he says he never leaked the report. Maybe he did not show Vance the report. But I would really like to see the emails to see if the information subsequently reported by Vance was contained in them.

      • bad12 4.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 8:35 am

        Winston is saying that Dunne not only leaked the Kitteridge report but there is a trail of leaks from ‘the Hairdo’ which Winston says He has evidence supporting His assertion,

        Interestingly or not, i got a squizz at the member for Ohariu a few months back and commented here on ‘Open Mike’ that He was looking more than a bit s**t and had a little speculating moment over whether He, (Dunne), would make it through to the 2014 election,

        When i seen Him downtown He looked like He had seen a ghost,(perhaps He thought i was going to mug Him), or perhaps wee Petey had had that long dormant part of His anatomy brought rushing back to life by the DomPost reporter, He knew He was trapped like a moth circling a naked light-bulb and the situation was scaring the crap outta Him…

    • James N 4.3
      12 June 2013 at 9:08 am

      As I understand it, the original Kitteridge Report contained 7 appendices but only the first 2 of these: a tabulated summary of findings and Terms of Reference were made public or ever intended to be made public. There were therefore 5 remaining appendices including inter alia the list of the names of people spoken to and a canvassing of legal issues involved that remained confidential. It would cerainly be interesting to know whether Peter Dunne (if he were the leaker) apprised the leakee of this material. If he did so then this rather white-ants the defence that “the report was going to be released anyway” and may indeed raise the legal stakes.

    • freedom 4.4
      12 June 2013 at 11:51 am

      once again the final line of the article seems to hold the biggest questions . .
      “A spokeswoman for the Prime Minister said the only copy Mr Key ever received was released in full with classified appendices withheld.”

      The PM does not have clearance to read the appendices of the department he is meant to have control over yet we are to implicitly trust his statements that life is hunky dory and there is nothing to concern ourselves with ?

      btw, want some spine chilling fun with way too many “it’s just a big co-incidence” results:
      do some searches around “Booz Allen Hamilton & Palintir”
      recommend throwing in words like “NZ” “US” “employment” “lobbyists” etc

  5. vto 5
    12 June 2013 at 8:12 am

    Wowser-ville coming to a town near you once again …… http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/8784123/Helmet-call-for-scooter-users

    I call for helmets to be made compulsory when riding in all motor vehicles. The highest number of head and brain injuries in New Zealand results from people not wearing helmets when in their cars especially. People only have one brains and when its gone there’s not much that can done. I am not anti-risk or anti-fun, we are pro-safety.

    Next week we will be launching a campaign to make open-toed jandals illegal.

    • karol 5.1
      12 June 2013 at 8:15 am

      People only have one brains and when its gone there’s not much that can done.

      Heh.

      Well, I’m for better education on the use of moving vehicles: such education from a very early age.

      • weka 5.1.1
        12 June 2013 at 11:47 am

        Better education on using scooters might help too. Does anyone teach kids much about what is safe.

        The journo really should have compared ACC scooter head injury stats in that report. Just saying there has been an x increase in overall claims doesn’t tell us much.

        Is it legal for kids to use a scooter in the road?

    • Pasupial 5.2
      12 June 2013 at 9:09 am

      @ VTO

      “I am not anti-risk or anti-fun, we are pro-safety.”

      Can you translate that into English please? I know that may be hard for your one brains, but before I contradict you I’d like to know who; “we” are, and how they can be simultaneously “anti-risk” and “pro-safety”. A link to data supporting your assertions (which I imagine relate to; absolute numbers, rather than; injury proportions/ hour traveled by transportation means), would be appreciated too.

      • vto 5.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 9:20 am

        We want to make sure that nobody taking part in a risky activity like riding a bike or a scooter gets harmed. And of course when people take part in an even more risky activity like riding in a car then it is even more important that safety equipment such as seat belts and helmets are worn.

        We don’t link to data because, you know, lies lies and statistics. We just ask ourselves – how many people come out of a car crash without head injuries? If these head-injured people had been wearing helmets then they would still have their one brains.

        Our eventual aim is continual compulsory wearing of helmets all day long.

        • Pascal's bookie 5.2.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 9:29 am

          “Our eventual aim is continual compulsory wearing of helmets all day long.”

          Don’t be ridculous. A lot of people die in bed. A lot.

          The policy must be: Our eventual aim is continual compulsory wearing of helmets at all times.

        • Pasupial 5.2.1.3
          12 June 2013 at 10:47 am

          Ah… Thanks VTO; I missed the irony the first time around, what with the word salad (though missing out; “not” in the “not anti-risk” quote, reduced the comprehensibilty of my own reply). I still don’t agree that; safety precautions shouldn’t be mandatory with vehicles, but at least now I know what I’m disagreeing with.

          Strangely enough, you are on firmer ground with: “People only have one brains and when its gone there’s not much that can done”. Though I’d say; one central nervous system (CNS) comprosing of; two cerbral hemispheres (each themselves divisable into cortical areas), ocular receptors (eyes), olfactory bulb, limbic system, and cerebellum, plus peripheral nervous system (PNS) and associated receptors. Where the PNS is (largely) capable of neuronal regeneration (barring spinal damage), while in the CNS cell-death is permanent (though synaptic profusion is lifelong). Which is why helmets are such a good idea!

          Personally I prefer the; Calvin Party song “lies, lies, lies, and government”, to your; “lies, [damned] lies, and statistics” Twain (?) quote. But then to borrow another phrase (I wish I knew from who): “Facts!.. Hah; you can prove anything with facts”.

          • vto 5.2.1.3.1
            12 June 2013 at 11:07 am

            Yes, it was a bit of a word salad sorry. A result of a knock to the head and brains when I stood up into the corner of an open kitchen cupboard. If only I had been wearing a helmet.

    • phillip ure 5.3
      12 June 2013 at 12:43 pm

      people should be made to wear helmets while watching third degree..(vacuity causing brain-damage risk..?..)

      ..and isn’t it funny when those surplus to needs co-comperes do their ‘my-underpants are too tight and full of itching powder!’ shuffle-duo number..?

      ..combined with their montgomery-burns stoops..it makes for quite the sight..

      ..and current affairs..it ain’t…

      ..phillip ure..

  6. bad12 6
    12 June 2013 at 8:19 am

    Who would have thunk it, more on the little debate we have been having about by-elections and their ability to upset the proportionality of the Parliament,

    The latest gem from the electoral Commission: ”There is no one provision in the Electoral Act 1993 that states that a by-election can change the proportionality of (the ) Parliament” unquote,

    It appears that the Electoral Commission has arrived at such decision to allow it’self the luxury of being, in the case of a by-election, able to alter the Parliaments proportionality on the basis of ”key definitions” which include the ”definition of an election and a by-election in section 2 of the 1993 Electoral Act,

    So, the nose goes back into the 1993 Act to see if i can ascertain how the Electoral Commission arrived at such ‘definitions’ giving it the power to upset the Parliaments proportionality,

    i was saying yesterday that this situation vis a vis by-elections and their ability to alter the Parliaments proportionality smelled a little of someone(s) making up the rules as they went along given that there is no specific Legislated provisions in the 1993 Electoral Act that address this issue,

    It’s now starting to pong a bit more, my view is that the people of New Zealand at general elections are the final arbiter of the proportional representation of the Parliament and it is not the privilege of appointed civil servants to alter that proportionality based upon definitions, (i assume), they have made from sections of the electoral Act…

    • bad12 6.1
      12 June 2013 at 1:11 pm

      Is our democracy of ‘proportional representation’ at the whim of public servants to be turned into a shoddy shonky sham ???,

      You bet, in certain situations ‘proportional representation’ would end up in the dustbin on the whim of Legislation with holes in it big enough to drive a bus through and the ‘interpretation’ of the Electoral Act by the Electoral Commission regarding by-elections,

      Here’s 2 ‘live’ situations that admittedly are unlikely to occur but could,

      (1), “the Hairdo from Ohariu” resigns from the Parliament and a by-election is held, National win this by-election but NO adjustment is made to their number of list MP’s thus giving National an extra MP in the Parliament over and above what the 2011 election dictates they have,

      (2), Parekura’s old seat Ikaroa-Rawhiti, should Mana win this by-election under the rules of proportional representation Labour would be entitled to an extra List MP in the Parliament to maintain their proportion of MP’s as dictated by the 2011 election but NO adjustment would be made to the number of Labour list MP’s in the house,

      Welcome to the Mickey Mouse democracy brought to you by a piece of shoddy electoral law and a handful of unelected civil servants who when questioned on this issue reply citing ‘definitions’ in the Electoral Law which do appear not to exist and sections of the same law which in word and intent have nothing whatsoever to do with the proportionality of the Parliament,

      And now…back to the Email to tell them about it…

  8. just saying 8
    12 June 2013 at 8:32 am

    A smile for the morning – satire from Lyndon Hood:
    http://werewolf.co.nz/2013/06/from-the-hood-plot-mega-plot/
    Wee snippet:

    Dappled forest light caught the Oracle’s hair and the strange smoke that curled around her face. She swayed, eyes curled upward.

    Russel found himself trying to grab Metiria’s hand as even he felt the power descend.

    “Welcome.”

    The voice that came from the Oracle’s mouth seeming too deep and wide for such a lean body to produce. The co-leaders fell to their knees.

    “Hear the Earth’s message. Know that these troubled times will end. Each injury to the fabric of the world wins another follower to our cause. Remember this in the storm to come. But beware. I am now unable to intuit the times ahead with clarity. A distortion in the ley lines from an unknown source is making its impact felt. The White Rooster has been sacrificed before the time foretold.”

    Russel’s brow crinkled.

    “You mean Peter Dunne?”

    “Yes.”

    “Surely he just suffered the normal fate of furry animals that sit in the middle of the road?”

    “His fall was the result of a cause I cannot descry.”

    “It wasn’t Dotcom?” said Russel. “I assumed it being the GCSB and that…”

    “Be assured The Count of Mansion Chrisco is as surprised as you are.

  9. just saying 9
    12 June 2013 at 8:57 am

    Werewolf is out today on ‘Scoop’ Always worth a read imo.

    http://werewolf.co.nz/2013/03/the-crying-game/
    Gordon Campbell on the blurring of politics and television.
    A teaser:

    To the HBO wing of the political blogosphere, Key may be vain and shallow and Joyce may be a bag of wind who has failed hopelessly to foster economic growth – but that sort of detail is felt to belong on a “Making Of “ featurette, and not in prime time. In prime time, the politicians may well come across as awkwardly shifty political tools – but the nightly displays of their fallibility merely confirm the wisdom of having low expectations in the first place. Routinely, journalists function as enablers of that process. The process readily becomes a duet of cynicism, and not a genuine holding to account. That’s the evil genius of television politics, and media theorist Mark Crispin Miller described its elements pretty well in his “Divide and Conquer” essay way back in 1986. For “TV” read “politics.”

    TV solicits each viewer’s allegiance by reflecting back his or her own automatic skepticism toward TV. Thus, TV protects itself from criticism or rejection by incorporating our very animus against the spectacle into the spectacle itself.

  10. vto 10
    12 June 2013 at 8:59 am

    .
    so the bank numty, I mean manager, rings and says ‘sorry we are cancelling your miniscule overdraft because you never completely pay it off’.

    * cough, splutter, gasp * …. ‘what?’ say I ‘ but just last week you sent me another one of those letters offering to double my credit card limit again. What on earth are you talking about? How do those two things make sense mr numty, I mean manager? Why do you offer a massive credit card, while at the same time crying credit failure over a teency tiny oevrdraft?’

    ‘Oh that’s a different department * nervous giggle *’ replies numty.

    Seriously, banks are the most dangerous of corporate creatures with a blood as cold as this morning’s river flow. Needless to say both matters have been cancelled completely and they can go f… themselves. Sticking the money under the mattress from now on, but don’t tell anyone (although I suppose the New Zealand government people spying on me will make a note)

    • Colonial Viper 10.1
      12 June 2013 at 9:53 am

      A bank is like someone happy to lend you an umbrella when it is sunny. And wants it back straight away when it starts raining.

      BTW a big Oz bank?

      • vto 10.1.1
        12 June 2013 at 10:21 am

        Yes a big ozzie bank.

        It was confirmation again that the MO of banks is the same as drug dealers – give the punters lots of lolly to get them hooked and then when they are addicted and can’t keep up move in and hoover the assets (on a nationwide scale of course, not so much individual)

    • bad12 10.2
      12 June 2013 at 10:22 am

      Buried in the vaults of the Bank of Tane Mahuta is a far better, (and safer), option for any spare cash you want to keep out of the fraudulent money go round operated by the banking system,

      The joy of banking with Tane Mahuta is that He has branches everywhere, snigger…

      • vto 10.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 11:11 am

        Funnily enough we do have some buried within some tane mahutas. Being the fast growing high value trees that they are we planted a small crop some years ago.

    • Lanthanide 10.3
      12 June 2013 at 11:50 am

      I thought someone that doesn’t pay off their interest-bearing overdraft would be a bank’s perfect customer?

      • vto 10.3.1
        12 June 2013 at 11:55 am

        That’s what I said before realising of course that if they can push that overdraft debt onto even more expensive credit card debt then, whammo, it’s win win win for the bank!

        But there evil ways have backfired he he he he – all debts now paid in full and no overdraft, credit card, and especially no business banking for them which is the real loss for them given our business banking dwarfs this numpty stuff. Seriously, they seem to operate by computer program. There appears little or no thinking inside day-to-day bank operations and customer relations.

        • Colonial Viper 10.3.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 2:26 pm

          There appears little or no thinking inside day-to-day bank operations and customer relations.

          That’s what happens when you are part of a monopolistic industry with massive power, profitability and leverage.

      • freedom 10.3.2
        12 June 2013 at 11:59 am

        yup, since the redundancy and the current pick’n’mix of haphazard income, my very small OD has grown a little and the interest and fees that are accruing have resulted in the most attentive and generous banking services I have ever experienced 🙂

        I am confident I will go back to being a nobody as soon as I get regular work again, or finally succumb to signing on for assistance which I have somehow managed to stave off so far, but hunger is beginning to bore me.

        • Pasupial 10.3.2.1
          12 June 2013 at 6:12 pm

          @ Freedom

          You do realise that WINZ start their stand-down period from when you apply, rather than when you lost employment income? Your pride in refusing to accept a benefit which your taxes have paid for, seems akin to that of; someone refusing to apply for an insurance payment on which they’ve always kept the premiums up to date: I’m sure that Paula Bennett would rub her hands, with much the same glee as the insurance company executives would, on hearing of your plight.

          • freedom 10.3.2.1.1
            13 June 2013 at 8:16 am

            At the pre-application meeting I did not appreciate being told my skill base and non-paid work commitments were irrelevant to what jobs I got sent for. It did get my gander up, so I am the first to admit that stubbornness (and a loathing of the senseless aggression inherent in the current processes) is certainly part of it.

            I was made redundant so there is no long term stand down in my circumstance, but it is a complex situation re the tax grounds you reference 🙁 and that plays its part also, as I do have reservations of asking for help when my taxes are not fully up to date.

  11. karol 11
    12 June 2013 at 9:00 am

    He’s baaack! Well, not quite. United Future says it has the numbers to re-register, but not on paper.

    The party had attempted to supply electronic records but the commission required signed paper copies of a member’s application.

    UnitedFuture will meet with the commission today to discuss the requirement saying it would be too difficult for any new party.

    Say what? Hasn’t every new party, like Mana, met the requirements?

    So United Future members are just electronic entities?

    • Hayden 11.1
      12 June 2013 at 9:35 am

      “Despite, and maybe because of, the events of the last week involving party leader Hon Peter Dunne MP we have had continuing membership applications from across the country, with huge levels of support for what the party stands for…”

      “Whatever the hell that might be”, he forgot to add.

    • bad12 11.2
      12 June 2013 at 10:31 am

      Translation, Facing the loss of 100 thou Pete furiously emailed ‘everyone’ He had ever met cajoling them to join the party sweat pouring from His fevered brow as He contemplated life without the Ministerial salary, perks AND the loss of the leadership allowance…

    • weka 11.3
      12 June 2013 at 11:58 am

      Signed paper copies… The GP has been using online registration for years and I think if you set up an AP your membership just rolls over.

      I wonder if the Electoral Commission’s requirement of UF is because they want to double check that they are in fact above 500 members, rather than it being a blanket requirement for every party to have signed paper copies.

      • felix 11.3.1
        12 June 2013 at 12:36 pm

        Yeah that’s my read of it too.

        No-one is taking Dunne’s word for anything.

        • Te Reo Putake 11.3.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 1:25 pm

          Yep, as previously noted, there may be a lot of George Peters, PG Bores, Pete R George’s etc on the list. Though probably not Vance, A.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.4
      12 June 2013 at 6:55 pm

      Um, what?

      Get the members to print out the membership forms and send them to you. It’s what every other bloody party does and have been doing for several decades – well, ok, fine, a few decades ago the parties probably even printed the forms themselves. The point being that it’s how it’s been done for fucken decades and probably was how UF managed to get registered in the first place so claiming that they can’t do it is total BS.

      • weka 11.4.1
        12 June 2013 at 9:03 pm

        Draco, the GP doesn’t require paper copies. You can join the party online without any other documentation. If the EC were to require the GP to provide signed copies, they would have to go back to the membership and ask them to fill in a form, sign it and post it in (because no such forms exist currently for those that joined online).

  12. ianmac 12
    12 June 2013 at 10:00 am

    ” Hard copies of the report were distributed to 34 people before it was released.

    Inquiry head David Henry focused only on the three people of the 34 who had been known to have contact with the reporter over a two-week period.”
    What! Is it possible that any one of the other 31 people leaked? Perhaps not by email and just handed over the brown paper parcel? No. Of course not. Only an email trail would indicate any possible answer to the leak. No Minister would have a private cell phone would they, and a who these days would have a brown paper to wrap up a report? Nah. Must be Peter Scapegoat.

    • Lanthanide 12.1
      12 June 2013 at 11:55 am

      “Inquiry head David Henry focused only on the three people of the 34 who had been known to have contact with the reporter over a two-week period.”

      Whoever wrote this got the story very very wrong and should be ashamed to be a journalist.

      What they were trying to say, is this:

      “Of the 34 people that had access to the report, Inquiry head David Henry focused only on the three of them who had been known to have contact with the reporter over a two-week period.”

  13. freedom 13
    12 June 2013 at 11:38 am

    Yesterday Chris Hipkins asked an important question relating to National Standards and their moderation. From reading through what I imagine to be the (not exactly easy to locate) section referred to by the Minister I fail to see how any of the information can be said to relate to a National Standard. There are numerous outlines of moderation handy-hints but there is certainly nothing pertaining to a well laid out standard for national moderation objectives. It certainly suggests if Schools choose to go outside of their own conversation they may find it useful, when developing their own techniques of assessment, but surely this only highlights the mainly insular nature of the moderation process.

    I do not see anything which differs from what schools have genuinely been themselves developing over decades and certainly noticed nothing which could direct a school to what a National Standard of moderation should be aiming for.
    http://nzcurriculum.tki.org.nz/National-Standards/Key-information/Fact-sheets/Moderation

    Q5- supplementary: http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/Debates/1/5/b/50HansD_20130611_00000008-Questions-for-Oral-Answer-Questions-to-Ministers.htm

    • freedom 13.1
      12 June 2013 at 12:06 pm

      I obviously posted in the wrong thread , could a moderator please shift it . . I already spilt a coffee broke a carving and sliced my thumb, generally not having a good day

      I am going for a walk,

    • ianmac 13.2
      12 June 2013 at 12:59 pm

      You are on to it freedom.
      Today Q12 CCHRIS HIPKINS to the Minister of Education: Does she stand by all of the answers she gave to Oral Questions yesterday?
      Do you reckon Parata will make a correction at the beginning of Q Time today?

  14. Pete 14
    12 June 2013 at 12:57 pm

    I actually facepalmed when I read of Trevor Mallard’s antics in threatening a copper’s job. Has the man learned nothing from the Aaron Gilmore debacle?

    • Te Reo Putake 14.2
      12 June 2013 at 1:13 pm

      Educational link, Pete! This one is better: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8786881/Drama-at-select-committee

      btw, I have no problem with Mallard raising the issue. A top cop praising a crooked cop is worthy of being discussed at that committee, though Trevor does seem to have blown a foofoo valve when challenged about it.

      • McFlock 14.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 1:36 pm

        Yes, although given the lovely nature of this crop of nats it was probably understandable.

        Some of the nats seem to think that if AAT were innocent, the police wouldn’t have fitted him up (or at least that’s what their unblinking defense of police in the face of serious questions would imply).

      • Winston Smith 14.2.2
        12 June 2013 at 2:34 pm

        407 Examples of contempts

        (o) reflecting on the character or conduct of the House or of a member in the member’s capacity as a member of the House:

        (p) misconducting oneself in the presence of the House or a committee:

        (u) intimidating, preventing, or hindering a witness from giving evidence, or giving evidence in full, to the House or a committee:

        (x) assaulting, threatening, or disadvantaging a person on account of evidence given by that person to the House or a committee:

        “We’re deciding whether or not to continue his salary, that’s what we’re deciding now,” he said.

        – That sounds threatening, imagine if a national mp threatened a worker job…(absolutely no sarcasm at all)

        Its a good thing nobody in the labour party has a relative that might profit from this in the form of a promotion/transfer

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 14.2.2.1
          12 June 2013 at 2:44 pm

          It’s appropriate to question the decision to give the eulogy, let alone its content, but attempting to hold some sort of de-facto employment tribunal was stupid and counter-productive Mallard.

          • Winston Smith 14.2.2.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 3:00 pm

            Mallard could now be short hand for stupid and counter productive

  15. Colonial Viper 15
    12 June 2013 at 2:22 pm

    500,000 private contractors and consultants have access to the NSA’s most secret systems and data

    Are we feeling the love yet, people?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/nsa-leak-contractors_n_3418876.html?1370919691

  16. felix 16
    12 June 2013 at 3:24 pm

    Just heard Joyce in the house saying that Labour members have accepted hospitality from Sky City – a corporate box at some event or other – and complaining that they still voted against the Sky City conference centre deal.

    All the Nats in the house tut-tutted in faux-outrage.

    Note what’s they’re expressing here: they think it’s scandalous to accept corporate hospitality and not be influenced by it!

    Could there be a clearer illustration of the bankrupt, backwards, and corrupt ethical framework followed by this government?

    • TheContrarian 16.1
      12 June 2013 at 3:47 pm

      I suspect it didn’t have anything to do with being influenced and more to do with accepting gifts from people they accuse of being involved in crony corruption or dirty deals.

      That’s how I understood anyway

      • felix 16.1.1
        12 June 2013 at 4:38 pm

        That’s not what “understood” means.

        But it’s about the level we’ve come to expect from you lately. Reminiscent of when you recently spent all day arguing that blatantly racist cartoons were actually making fun of racists.

        But while you’re still pretending to be making a serious point, would you care to outline the ethical principle in play in your interpretation, and explain how National’s acceptance of favours differs?

        • TheContrarian 16.1.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 4:48 pm

          Nothing in my comment warranted your stupid response, so fuck off Felix.

          • felix 16.1.1.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 4:52 pm

            Except for the words.

            Care to answer the question? Or have you already ceased pretending to have a serious point to make?

            • TheContrarian 16.1.1.1.1.1
              12 June 2013 at 4:55 pm

              I did, I said “fuck off Felix”.

              • felix …
                12 June 2013 at 4:57 pm

                Am I to take that to mean you have no wish to compare the ethical positions of the two parties in question according to your own interpretation as stated above?

                How surprising.

                • TheContrarian …
                  12 June 2013 at 5:00 pm

                  I would have been happy to discuss it but your inability to state why you disagree and why without being a sneery asshole makes one think “Why would I talk to that, dick?”

                  So fuck off Felix.

                  Oh and for the record, dick, I recanted my position of the cartoons within a couple hours of my first a comment and admitted in light of other peoples arguments that I was incorrect. So again, fuck off.

                  • felix …
                    12 June 2013 at 7:00 pm

                    Yeah, I can totally see why you wouldn’t want to discuss things with someone who was all rude and sneery.

                    Totally.

                    And yep I know you recanted your absurd position on the obviously racist cartoons, the point I was making is that you spent all day defending the indefensible before finally agreeing to look at them from the point of view of a normal fucking human being.

                    All available indications are that had you deigned to lower yourself to discuss my observation above with my rude, sneery self, the outcome would be no different.

                    Frankly it’s a waste of everyone’s time and it’s probably for the best that you’ve decided to centre the discussion around your twattish nature and lack of self awareness instead.

    • QoT 16.2
      12 June 2013 at 6:32 pm

      Yeah, I must with regret say I agree with TC on this one.

      It’s fucking amateur to decry businesses getting special treatment from government in return for favours … then accept those favours. Someone remind me, has Labour made any commitment to explore any and all options to end the 35-year pokies deal yet?

      As for “not being influenced by it” – they’re in Opposition. They’re not in a position to make policy now. But if they’re accepting corporate hospitality barely a year out from a general election … what fun new deal might 2014 bring for all concerned?

      Not to mention that it’s a fantastic look for a party trying once again to brand itself as the supporter of Kiwi battlers to be sitting in corporate boxes hobnobbing with executives at rugby matches. Let me guess, they were being ~aspirational~.

      • Colonial Viper 16.2.1
        12 June 2013 at 6:42 pm

        Overseas foreign currency bank accounts, one for every working class battler

      • TheContrarian 16.2.2
        12 June 2013 at 7:15 pm

        “It’s fucking amateur to decry businesses getting special treatment from government in return for favours … then accept those favours.”

        The principled position, if you were to complain about the cronyism between the National and SkyCity would be to have nothing to do with SkyCity.

        Which I think Joyce was trying to point out (though his point is kinda lost in the fact he is hardly principled himself).

      • felix 16.2.3
        12 June 2013 at 7:16 pm

        Let me be clear, I don’t give a rat’s whether it’s a good look for Labour or not. I’ve pretty much come to accept that they’re useless at this stuff and I’ve given up expecting them to get any better at it any time soon. My comment was about the criticism leveled by Joyce (and then Ryall in the gen debate).

        Their criticism gets all the relevant principles of ethics, conflicts of interest, and transparency 180 degrees backwards.

        “As for “not being influenced by it” – they’re in Opposition. They’re not in a position to make policy now. “

        They’re in a position to either vote for or against the shonky deal, and they voted against. And that’s what Joyce and Ryall were pointing to as a hypocrisy – that if they were going to take the gifts they should bloody well knuckle down and get to work for the corporate overlords.

        • Rosetinted 16.2.3.1
          12 June 2013 at 7:52 pm

          tc
          How can Labour participate in society if It doesn’t have anything to do with things it is not in agreement with? Attending something being held at Sky City seems reasonable. Objecting to having a corporate box would just make them look precious.

          What was to be gained by refusing it at that time? They have to make a case for change where they can have some effect. But first they need to see what’s going on. So they attend. If they hadn’t they ‘d probably be called wowsers so Labour can’t win.

          • TheContrarian 16.2.3.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 8:14 pm

            No need to make a big song and dance of things and outright refuse, one can politely decline.

            But outside of that – this is a politically ‘hot’ issue and one that Labour has been very vocal about. It provides talking points and ammunition for National to make an issue of.

            • felix 16.2.3.1.1.1
              13 June 2013 at 12:48 am

              There’s no political issue with Sky City though. They’ve never done anything except try to advance their own interests.

              The political issue is with the politicians and whose interests they are advancing, and that question is answered very clearly by the voting record.

          • Colonial Viper 16.2.3.1.2
            13 June 2013 at 1:06 am

            What was to be gained by refusing it at that time? They have to make a case for change where they can have some effect. But first they need to see what’s going on. So they attend. If they hadn’t they ‘d probably be called wowsers so Labour can’t win.

            What the fuck? So according to you, first they need to see what is going on in a fully catered, free bar corporate box, THEN they can make a case for change? Politiely put, what the FUCK are you on about?

            And according to you, the risk of being called a fucking “WOWSER” or looking “PRECIOUS” is supposed to influence the behaviour of our MPs? Sticks and stones may break my bones…for fucks sake, just grow up.

            I mean seriously, did you even think about what you wrote, before you wasted data storage space expressing it?

            Let’s be real clear here. Our politicians are not supposed to be trying to cajole and persuade and convince the corporates of anything. They are not supposed to be creating closer ties and working relationships with the corporate community and the top 0.1%. Instead, they are supposed to acting in the best interests of the nation and the people.

            We, the ordinary people are supposed to be the constituency they represent NOT the multimillionaire corporate class (nor the MSM for that matter).

            These politicians are Members of the Sovereign Fucking Parliament of the Land and being called a fucking “WOWSER” and buddying up with the SkyCity Board of Directors should be the least of their fucking concerns. And the way you “have an effect” is by judicious and firm use of the sovereign powers and authority of the Crown. Not by trying to grease up to the top 0.1%.

  17. Penny Bright 17
    12 June 2013 at 3:38 pm

    Just asked Sean Plunket this question on his facebook page :

    “Sean Plunket- sorry – but I really do have to ask you this question:

    Do you have a genuinely investigative bone in your body, when it comes to the fluoridation of public water supplies issue – or are you just a National Party ‘political HACK’?

    (Meant of course, in a caring way 😉

    Are you interested in ‘seeking truth from FACTS’?

    Have you yet carefully read this new study in the Journal of Environmental and Public Health which delivers a significant blow to fluoridation? :

    “..chronic effects of fluoride involve alterations in the chemical activity of calcium by the fluoride ion. Natural calcium fluoride with low solubility and toxicity from ingestion is distinct from fully soluble toxic industrial fluorides …”

    “Industrial fluoride ingested from treated water enters saliva at levels too low to affect dental caries. Blood levels during lifelong consumption can harm heart, bone, brain, and even developing teeth enamel.
    The widespread policy known as water fluoridation is discussed in light of these findings. ….”

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2013/439490/

    Or this?

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Waikato-Amended-ACC-Presentation-18-10-02.pdf

    Which questions whether either the Ministry of Health and Watercare Services be trusted, given their proven track record in supporting the use of Waikato water, as a ‘raw’ source of drinking water supplies for the Auckland region?”

    For the public record, I again state my considered opinion, that as a 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate, I do NOT support the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies.

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner.”

    • TheContrarian 17.1
      12 June 2013 at 4:14 pm

      “Do you have a genuinely investigative bone in your body, when it comes to the fluoridation of public water supplies issue – or are you just a National Party ‘political HACK’?”

      Wait, what? Believing fluoridation of water as a good public health policy in line with the CDC, American Dental Association, The UN, the American Medical Association etc etc now makes one a National Party hack?

      • Anne 17.1.1
        12 June 2013 at 8:15 pm

        For the anti-fluoridationists who have been rabbiting pseudo-science re-fluoride recently on this site:

        The fluoride science is already settled

        I will listen to Dr Gluckman – and the other illustrious scientific bodies mentioned by TC – on the subject before amateur hacks any day.

        Let me inform the uninformed the following. Did you know:

        That a person would have to drink 40 bath-fulls of fluoridated water (at the level allowed by law in NZ) in one sitting before that person would be affected by an overdose of fluoride. How do I know this? It was part of a lecture by a professor of dentistry during my dental training… albeit several decades ago. Nothing has changed since then.

        • TheContrarian 17.1.1.1
          12 June 2013 at 8:29 pm

          Some communities have been fluoridated for over 50 years, some have never been fluoridated. Given the time and population sizes one should be able to show a difference in health between the fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities.

          No such difference has been demonstrated. Fluoridated communities have no significant health problems in comparison to the non-fluoridated.

          The reality speaks for itself.

          • Anne 17.1.1.1.1
            12 June 2013 at 8:56 pm

            That is correct TC. What annoys me most about this recently resurrected debate is the attempt to infer that the population has been exposed to serious side effects from the fluoridation of water. Yes, there are side effects but only at levels far in excess of that which exists in controlled conditions. We also have minute quantities of other chemicals present in water (some naturally and some added) that would also pose a risk to health if they were present at excessive levels. They’re not… and never will be.

            One only has to compare the state of children’s teeth before the addition of fluoride, to those children who have been the beneficiaries of fluoridation. The difference has been enormous. What is more, fluoride provides an additional topical protection for adults too, which also helps to at least delay serious tooth decay.

  18. mac1 18
    12 June 2013 at 3:43 pm

    Such behaviour puts the whole of the lobbying industry at risk. What next if we can’t trust people’s venal greed and self-serving interest?

    Next we’ll have donations to the poor, honesty boxes and… and….. and…. friendship, dammit!

  19. Te Reo Putake 19
    12 June 2013 at 4:09 pm

    So how much dya reckon an Abbott government will improve things for Aussie women?

    http://thehoopla.com.au/julia-gillard-kentucky-fried-quail/

  20. marty mars 20
    12 June 2013 at 5:07 pm

    So much shit going down and now this

    “Haqq-Misra is leading a team of scientists and entrepreneurs who are launching a new initiative called “Lone Signal” which will send the first continuous mass “hailing messages” out into space, starting later this month.”

    Surely something like this should have to be ‘approved’ by the human race before they do it – but no the scientists have decided.

    http://www.universetoday.com/102844/lone-signal-first-continous-message-beacon-to-find-and-say-hello-to-an-extraterrestrial-civilization/#more-102844

    • McFlock 20.1
      12 June 2013 at 5:24 pm

      Those people decided.

      From what I recall, besides a couple of exceptions, various collections of scientists, philosophers and sociologists (he – see what I did there? Qual/quant fight go! :)) have looked at the issue and generally come down with a “generally bad idea” conclusion.

      But of course the key word in the article is “entrepreneur”: I suspect their business plan is strictly terrestrial.

    • Rosetinted 20.2
      12 June 2013 at 5:31 pm

      Time for me to watch Mars Attack again. Quite funny. And the green ones are so direct. We approach extending the hand of friendship. They shoot and deal with any problems before they arrive.

    • Colonial Viper 20.3
      12 June 2013 at 6:14 pm

      What could possibly go wrong?

    • muzza 20.4
      12 June 2013 at 8:33 pm

      Perhaps they’re just trying to phone home , Marty!

      My opinion its the people who are funding the project, made the decision, semantics possibly, but its my issue with the misuse of science, which seems to be working against humanities better interests!

      I’m quite certain the reason the planet continues to be trashed, is that the psychopaths in charge, expect to be able to leave the planet, and head elsewhere, once its game over!

      Perhaps its how things are meant to be, the evolutionists should appreciate it!

      • karol 20.4.1
        12 June 2013 at 8:36 pm

        I’m quite certain the reason the planet continues to be trashed, is that the psychopaths in charge, expect to be able to leave the planet, and head elsewhere, once its game over!

        And oblivious to the possibility that, any intelligent life out there could look at their “hail”, and say Piss Off. You’re not the kind we want in our Hood!”

  21. Rosetinted 21
    12 June 2013 at 5:20 pm

    Donkey has just given a short sharp answer to Russel Norman that he is not interested in the operational matters of the methods and practices of intelligence agencies supplying our NZ intelligence and this seems meant to apply to private companies working for the government. Palantir? has advertised for an embedded analyst. Sounds like they’re in bed with the government all right. But embedded means sunk into the midst of something! Anyway we don’t need to bother about it, Jokey Hen thinks it’s all hunky-dory.

  22. Morrissey 22
    12 June 2013 at 5:25 pm

    NEWSFLASH!
    Karl du Fresne manages a whole hour and a quarter of normality

    Radio NZ National, The Panel, Wednesday 12 June 2013
    Jim Mora, Karl du Fresne, Finlay Macdonald

    Preshow chat, 3:45 to 4:00 p.m.—nothing. Well, one thing of interest: Karl du Fresne notes that the U.S. regime lied continuously and grossly about what it was doing in Vietnam. That’s a remarkable change in his behaviour; a tilt toward honesty.

    First half hour: nothing eventful. Some interesting discussions, about Peter Dunne and Winston Peters, and something else about Sir Bruce Ferguson, but nothing eventful.

    At 4:30, the News. Nothing exciting.

    Karl du Fresne on his best behaviour. So far. Mora and Macdonald pleasant and urbane as always.

    At 4:40, a discussion with Phil Ruthven, chairman and founder of Ibis World, from Melbourne, about use of leisure time. Diverting, but nothing special.

    Next it’s time for the “Soapbox” segment, where the guests deliver a prepared rumination on something they’ve been thinking about. Or, in the case of guests like Christine (Spankin’) Rankin, a confused and incoherent rant against Māori. So, maybe du Fresne will say something stupid in this segment….

    MORA: Finlay I think you want to mention Nelson Mandela.

    FINLAY MACDONALD: He’s been there for all of my life. I was born in 1961, when he was just starting his revolutionary movement. He went to jail soon after and he was in Robben Island all during my youth. I was thirty when he was released from jail, and my oldest child was born the year that he was elected president of South Africa. I just wonder who are we sending to his funeral? The prime minister, who can’t remember what side he was on in 1981? Or one of those public figures who called him a terrorist?

    MORA: [with a slight edge of facetiousness] John Minto!

    FINLAY MACDONALD: [refusing to rise to Mora’s provocation] Yeah, maybe. Or I think possibly John Graham, who went to the townships—he asked to be taken there—and came back to New Zealand and said “I don’t think we should play with those people”. That took a lot of courage.

    KARL DU FRESNE: Mmmm, mmmmm.

    MORA: Mmmmm, mmmmm. Karl, what’s been on YOUR mind?

    KARL DU FRESNE: I want to have a bit of a grizzle about incomprehensible sets of instructions.

    MORA: Hur hur hur hur.

    KARL DU FRESNE: There are some things where you CAN’T disregard the instructions and charge ahead. Particularly electronic things. My brother is a builder, well accustomed to dealing with technical challenges. But he’s tearing his hair out trying to work the electronic equipment in his house. ….

    This monologue continues for some time, and is actually very amusing.

    MORA: Lots of suggestions on the texts about who to send over to the funeral: Phil Recordon, Jim Bolger, Sandy McNicol…

    FINLAY MACDONALD: There’s a whole planeload of them!

    At 4:50, a discussion about crude and offensive language at the football on Saturday night.

    At 4:55, an amusing discussion with the sly and hilarious Patrick Morgan, about scooter safety. Once again, Karl du Fresne’s comments are pertinent and positive.

    VERDICTS:

    Good work, Jim. Keep it up! (A minus.)

    Well done, Karl du Fresne. See, you CAN act like a normal human being. (A minus.)

    Finlay Macdonald: Badly misjudged assessment of John Graham. That one comment aside, he took nothing like the stance against apartheid, or racism, that you say he did. (B minus.)

  23. Tim 23
    12 June 2013 at 5:51 pm

    Yep – I heard that and wondered if it could be the same man. He must have changed his underwear

  24. ScottGN 24
    12 June 2013 at 6:09 pm

    I love how the company looking to embed an analyst into the goverment here is called Palantir. Still loving all that LOTR stuff eh John?

  25. gobsmacked 25
    12 June 2013 at 7:20 pm

    To: MPs Shearer, Cosgrove, Fa’afoi, Goff.

    I hope you enjoyed SkyCity’s corporate box. Unlike your blood-sucking chums, I don’t have anything to offer you, except my vote. It’s not much, I know, but it’s all I’ve got. And you don’t seem to want it, so you won’t be getting it.

    Please fuck off out of Parliament and into the National Party, where you belong.

  26. karol 26
    12 June 2013 at 7:20 pm

    Are estate agents, actually agents of the 1%?

    • Colonial Viper 26.1
      13 June 2013 at 12:55 am

      Yes. Or more accurately, they are agents of capitalism.

      For several reasons, but primarily because they make a living from other people exchanging capital assets where they are not paid by the hour but as a % commission of the value of those assets – nothing to do with the input or physical value of their labour.

      • karol 26.1.1
        13 June 2013 at 8:01 pm

        Well, I am getting heartily sick of estate agents ringing me, assuming I am the “home owner” rather than actually being a renter, and trying to encourage me to put my property on the market. Basically, the scumbags are trying to get landlords to sell property from under the renters, thus contributing to housing inflation and rising and insecure rents.

  27. Penny Bright 27
    12 June 2013 at 7:49 pm

    FYI

    12 June 2013

    ‘Open Letter’ / OIA to Professor Sir Peter Gluckman from Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright:

    “Upon what ‘science’ are you relying to support fluoride in water?”

    OFFICE OF THE PRIME MINISTER’S SCIENCE ADVISORY COMMITTEE

    Professor Sir Peter Gluckman, KNZM FRSNZ FMedSci FRS
    Chief Science Advisor

    Dear Professor,

    I read with interest your following ‘Media Release’:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/GE1306/S00035/sir-peter-gluckman-statement-of-flouride.htm

    “Media release
    12 June 2013

    “The science of fluoride in water is effectively settled. It has been one of the most thoroughly worked questions in public health science over many decades,” says Sir Peter Gluckman, the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Advisor.

    In a statement released today on the issue of fluoride in public water supplies, Sir Peter reiterates the scientific facts, saying “it is absolutely clear that at doses used in New Zealand to adjust the natural level to one that is consistent with beneficial effects (0.7-1.0mg/litre), there is no health risk from fluoride in the water.”

    So why is there any issue at all?

    Sir Peter points to the importance of the values debate around fluoridation, but warns that this should not be misrepresented as a scientific debate. …”

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Can you please provide the information which confirms you have read the following research:

    1) http://www.hindawi.com/journals/jeph/2013/439490/

    “..chronic effects of fluoride involve alterations in the chemical activity of calcium by the fluoride ion. Natural calcium fluoride with low solubility and toxicity from ingestion is distinct from fully soluble toxic industrial fluorides …”

    “Industrial fluoride ingested from treated water enters saliva at levels too low to affect dental caries. Blood levels during lifelong consumption can harm heart, bone, brain, and even developing teeth enamel.
    The widespread policy known as water fluoridation is discussed in light of these findings. ….”

    2) http://www.slweb.org/50reasons.html

    50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
    Dr. Paul Connett
    Professor of Chemistry
    St. Lawrence University, NY 13617

    __________________________________________________

    FYI – I have spent some hundreds of hours researching the decisions of the Ministry of Health and Watercare Services to use Waikato river water as a ‘raw’ source of drinking water supplies for the Auckland region.

    I respectfully suggest that you read the following document which I prepared for a meeting of the Auckland City Council Finance and Business Committee back in October 2002, so that you can understand why a number of persons, such as myself, do NOT trust either the Ministry of Health, or Watercare Services Ltd, when it comes to safeguarding public health and drinking water supplies.

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Waikato-Amended-ACC-Presentation-18-10-02.pdf

    FYI – as a 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate, I do NOT support the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies.

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation’ campaigner.

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=152

  28. xtasy 28
    12 June 2013 at 8:25 pm

    What a sad country and state of affairs this place has become. Day in day out the same posters and crowd, no growth, no appeal, the MSM misinforming and getting away with it even more than before, the wider public dumber than they have ever been (outracing previous records of dumbness and ignorance daily), and trivia and misinformation being the staple diet of the most dumbed down people within the OECD, that is – guess what, New Zealand.

    It is the best place to leave for good, and to never come back to, it is a lost place, full of emptiness, especially in the minds of too many, it is not even on the map, that is for most in the world, as it just dropped off, before the map got the final current print run.

    Good night, a waste of time, really! X

    • muzza 28.1
      12 June 2013 at 8:58 pm

      Feeling you, X!

      The point to remember, is that NZ is still part of a major experiment, there is a reason we have all those *firsts*, they are not anything to do with being progressive, much as the peeps would like to believe.

      NZ’ers, generally take the view , that the world is *just like them*, its not, it never was, and never will be, primarily because, NZ’ers have little to no sense of identity, or their place in the world., which is what comes from being such a young nation.

      TPTB are having their way with NZ, it started in in 1840, but really kicked off in 1961. You can see NZ’s decline in the OECD rankings, from the end of the 60’s onwards, which tells the timeline of the experiment.

      It saddens me greatly, to understand that NZ remains under attack, and worst of all, that there are so many who , not only are unaware, but in fact they believe so much , in their *worldly understandings*, they are actively supporting the propagation of evil, and effectively digging their own graves!

      Try to enjoy what you can in this life, X, its important that we all give, and receive joy, it can be found everywhere, even when the clouds are at their most sinister!

      If you spend too much time on this site, or tracking the gloom around, the joy will become ever more difficult to engage with, and if you are feeling that way, my advise would be, stop tracking the system, its going to continue regardless. Just do what you need to, I appreciate from your posts, that there are restrictions, and changes which are directly going to affect you, if I recall, that being the case, I wish you well, and keep up the good fight, but don’t let the fight kill you, eh!

      Kia kaha

    • marty mars 28.2
      12 June 2013 at 9:28 pm

      Thanks for your help in exposing some of the shit. And muzza is on to it – go and have an actual look around at the beauty everywhere and get off the fucken internet for a while – you’re alive start living.

  29. Chooky 29
    12 June 2013 at 8:44 pm

    Now that he has done the Dunne business …Lets see what Winnie is really made of …. Hope Winston gets on the case of Palantir?….This really is an outrage!

    Private companies spying on NZers?…What for? Who exactly is Palantir? Where do they come from? ….AND ….Why doesnt John Key know about them and what they are up to ?…Surely that is his job ?

    Any more leaks ? ( or is that a naughty word?)

    GOOD ON THE GREENS !…. for fishing this one from out under the bed.

    Winnie what can you do to help?

  30. xtasy 30
    13 June 2013 at 12:31 am

    Stuff to be entertained or thinking about –

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IstzHJGydzU

    A bit nutty:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5_8XN8K0HM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEEPDS_IKnc

    Greens or not Greens, or whatever, we should be allowed some basic freedoms and to talk face to face.

  31. xtasy 31
    13 June 2013 at 12:38 am

    Also I totally thank all for sympathy, we live in a world that we have little input in, and I welcome you all to take a solid stand, just bit by bit!

    So raising voices and disagreeing is just part of the agenda to let em know, there are others that do NOT support your one system, largely corporate focused. Bear that in mind, the corporates RUN the system and all words of them are lies and hollow. Do NOT believe them and create your own individual, independent, democratic systems and islands all over, thanks!

  32. Jenny Kirk 32
    13 June 2013 at 8:55 pm

    moderator : can you put this onto tomorrow’s notice please.

    Nasty racism times ahead for Aotearoa-New Zealand’s people. 1-law-4-All is stepping up its pace,
    and I note the advertisement from ACT on The Standard today about a public meeting on The Constitution Mon 17 June St Heliers. This will be part of the same sick stuff which is spewing forth from Muriel Newman as director of NZ Centre for Political Research. The following is part of their creed :

    ” We reject reference to the Treaty of Waitangi or its principles in any constitutional document.
    We ask that such references be removed from all existing legislation.
    We ask that race-based Parliamentary seats be abolished.
    We ask that race-based representation on local bodies be abolished.
    We ask that the Waitangi Tribunal, which has outlived any usefulness it may have had, be abolished.”

    An extract from – The Origins of 1 Law 4 All (a new political party – don’t know if its registered yet)

    “Over recent years – and especially since National went into coalition with the Maori Party – there has been a step-by-step erosion of our traditional democratic rights in favour of the tribal elite, which the Maori Party represents.’

    “However, it needed a catalyst to bring about a movement for political action and that catalyst was the (February, 2013) publication of “Twisting the Treaty”, an authoritative and terrifying account of the way that New Zealand is blindly going down the dark path of separatism and racism, with those who are not part-Maori being made to feel like second class citizens in their own country.’

    “Twisting the Treaty” ……….. The book has made enough people angry enough to initiate political action and 1 Law 4 All is the result – a party that is determined to roll through the country like thunder, informing the people of how they are being cheated of long held rights by the two main parties in the spurious name of “Treatyism”.

    “Treatyism is the false belief that the Treaty of Waitangi gave special rights to the Maori when it did not. Treatyism says that the Treaty of Waitangi created a “partnership” between Maori and other New Zealanders when it did not……..”

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