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The Standard

Open mike 12/07/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 12th, 2012 - 89 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

89 comments on “Open mike 12/07/2012”

  1. Pascal's bookie 1

    Good morning Pete George.

    Just wondering about your comments in various places yesterday about how various parties are talking about the Waitangi Tribunal hearing.

    You’ve demanded evidence that Key was playing the race card, and been dismissive of any put forward. I’d like to know if you can square that stance with your own comments about “extortion”. What evidence do you have to suggest “extortion”. You claimed in a very inflammatory post that you find it hard not to think that the claim to the tribunal isn’t extortion.

    I think it’s hard to come to that conclusion at all, so I’m genuinely curious about your reasoning, especially given you have also said you support honouring the treaty.

    I’ve asked a number of times if you would like to withdraw the extortion claim, and apologise. You haven’t responded to that so I can only assume you stand by it.

    So what gives?

    • Patrick Gower has just spoken on Firstline, explaining why he doesn’t think John Key was playing the race card. Gower pointed out that what Key said was consistent with what he’d been saying on this issue since Waitangi Day.

      No one on The Standard yesterday (that I saw) came up with any evidence that “Key’s fight with Maori no accident’.

      I accept that ‘extortion’ could be seen as a strong term, but I qualified this if you look at it in context of all that I said:

      But the timing of the claim makes it difficult to avoid the perception of cynical extortion, of trying to force the Government to give some people preferential treatment with the sale of MOM asset share floats.

      I don’t think that was inflammatory. You seem to be trying to fan it by repeatedly promoting one word only, but it hasn’t attracted much reaction otherwise.

      I’ve backed up and shown that some people think the Waitangi Tribunal action should result in financial gain. I’m not the only one who has raised the issue of deliberately timed pressure, and that it’s a possible abuse of the Waitangi tribunal authority.

      Now a question for you – do you think Eddie saying “Key’s fight with Maori no accident” was imflammatory?

      He repeated similar sentiments in his post, and suggested a NZH editorial was wrong. Do you think there is any proven basis to what Eddie posted?

      So what gives?

      • Pascal's bookie 1.1.1

        There is no qualification in your post Pete.

        You just use the passive vopice, talking about perception, and some people. All that does is make it look like it isn’t *you* saying it, that you are just reporting. So name the people and explain the extortion.

        People seeking remedy are not extorting. Extortion is a crime. Why would it be unjust for people to get remedy for harm caused?

        I highlight the word extortion, because it is the essence of your smear. You still haven’t justified it.

        So if this extortion perception is so very hard to avoid, where are the people who see it? Other than yourself.

        I grant that commenters on Kiwiblog, or callers to talkback, will no doubt be claiming it. But I’d wager those same people would think that the whole Treaty is null and void. That is what they will be basing their thinking on.

        But you have said that you think we should honour the treaty. If you believe that, then it follows that when the crown is doing something that may breach treaty rights, then there should be some urgency around determing the case. That’s the timing issue.

        So please explain how you can agree that the crown should honour the trety obligations it has, and at the same time think it’s hard to avoid thinking it’s extortion when iwi ask the crown to honour the treaty.

      • mickysavage 1.1.2

        Pete your comment was inflammatory because it was not true.  For decades Iwi have complained about the loss of their Taonga including land, mountains, rivers, shellfish, pretty well everything.

        If you had any sense of the history, for instance Tainui’s claim for the Waikato.

        But from a point of complete ignorance you say not only that this is not true, but that Maori have engaged in cynical extortion.

        Not only is it not true but it is insulting to Tangata Whenua.

        PB called you on it.  And I don’t see that you have come up with any evidence to justify your claim.

        Just because other red necks have also trotted out the same statements does not make those statements true. 

  2. Descendant Of Smith 2

    Pete George = to quisle

  3. Descendant Of Smith 3

    The government is already giving people preferential treatment with the shares – those with money.

    If we were to be fair they would give every NZ citizen an equal number of shares who then would be free to do with them what they wish.

    Why now ramp it up – because the asset is being sold against their wishes.

    I remember when water was taken from the Whanganui river and some of the angst that caused. Places we used to swim are now well above the water line even when the river is in flood.

    There was some accpetance at the time it was for the good of the people – this common good is being transferred into private good – that was opposed at the time and is opposed now.

    It’s an abuse of the goodwill that existed at the time, particularly by Tuwharetoa, in the same way that transferring National Park into private hands would be.

  4. Socialist Paddy 4

    The Herald editorial this morning appears to be saying that Trade Union influence on the Labour Party ought to be minimized and that the MPs should be given the most power in determining who should be the party’s leader.

    All the more reason for the Labour Party to do the opposite.  I don’t know why the MPs should have so much say.  They ought to be the servants of the party and not its masters.

    The Trade Union movement provide the heart and soul of the party and should be given a significant say. 

    • Craig Glen Eden 4.1

      I couldnt agree more Paddy our Mps have clearly elected the wrong leader with David Shearer providing next to no leader ship, all the while being given huge amounts of material to work with by a National Government that is hardly full of talent or strong performers. If we ran the same arguments that the Herald is using and applied them to a general election it wouldnt be the people who voted in a Government because they simply wouldnt know enough to select the right parties and therefore who should be PM, all to complex for them. If a party wants members and wants peoples time money and energy why shouldnt those people get to decide who the leader should be. Sadly our Labour MPs are full of their own self importance it wouldnt be so bad if they were as good as they are arrogant, if that was so Labour would never be in opposition.

    • marsman 4.2

      The Herald would not for a moment dream of also saying that the Business Round Table influence on the National Party ought to be minimized.

    • Jim Nald 4.3

      At least the Herald editorial is being constant and true to its right-wing readership and wallets by volunteering that mischievous advice.

      In contrast …..
      Labour’s heart and soul appear to be adrift in recent times, disconnected from their heads and moral compass. The eyes of their leadership seem to be locked into polling figures, their ears closed to the voices of the broader non-caucus members.

      It is not even discernible these days whether Labour remains strongly grounded in the values of their grassroots and wider party membership.

    • Carol 4.4

      And presumably the Herald editor must think they would be able to have more influence on Labour MPs than on the membership, or unions.

      Thus they completely abdicate any fourth estate responsibilities and show they are anti-democracy.

    • Colonial Viper 4.5

      The Trade Union movement provide the heart and soul of the party and should be given a significant say.

      Which decade were you referring to?

  5. just saying 5

    http://www.thepoliticalscientist.org/

    Puddleglum analyses the “work is liberty” spin in regard to shit work.

    A teaser:

    Almost 2,000 years after Cicero, here in New Zealand, a recent survey claimed that:

    Unemployed Kiwis have a better overall level of wellbeing than “disengaged” employees, according to consulting company Gallup’s global wellbeing finder.

    Some 72 per cent of New Zealanders are actively disengaged in the workforce, with 59 per cent of disengaged employees behaving poorly with family and friends after a stressful day’s work.

    Read that again: being employed but “actively disengaged” is worse for your personal (subjective) well-being – and the well-being of those around you, it would seem – than being unemployed. And, according to the survey, most employed New Zealanders are actively disengaged.

    Yet, isn’t it well-known that being employed is far better than being unemployed? It might be well-known but it’s not that simple. Employment comes in different shapes and sizes and in different quality as, believe it or not, this – slightly dated – Treasury paper argues:

    It can be concluded that all of these studies consistently suggest that “bad” or unsatisfactory employment is no better for a person’s psychological well-being than having no job at all….

    • higherstandard 5.1

      Let me guess….. consulting company Gallup makes a shite load of money out of conferences and consulting to companies and governments about human resources and wellbeing and produces polls to drive that business ?

    • Olwyn 5.2

      When you think of people working at the franchised gassies, who have cameras on them all day lest they eat a chocolate bar without paying for it, and who must pay themselves if someone fills their car and runs off under their watch, or the lady who was put on notice for having a bible in her pocket at Sky City, then what you are saying makes perfect sense.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3

      Actual link

  6. Dr Terry 6

    Can anybody tell me what Labour does stand for? Are they so aligned with most of Key’s policies that they are left with nothing new to say? Will the country be choosing between two similar parties in 2014? Shearer usually looks like he needs a sleep – maybe he is sleepwalking! Has Cunliffe (again?) been gagged – the only shining light? Labour is presently giving Key another term by default. Consequently, Key knows he can go right on doing whatever he likes, in safety. One only wishes more people would give their support to the Greens – at least we do hear strong stuff from them all the time.

    • higherstandard 6.1

      “Can anybody tell me what Labour does stand for?”

      They same as every other political party their own self interest and jolly big dollop of troughing.

    • Colonial Viper 6.2

      Can anybody tell me what Labour does stand for?

      Labour strongly stands for winning, and stands strongly against losing.

      Is that clearer now?

  7. AnnaLiviaPluraBella 7

    Shearer promised a genuine role for the membership in the Leader selection Process.  I’m sure he did not mean that the Caucus would have a veto over the wishes of the membership. 

    So here does the tone of the stories over the past two days in the Herald and Dominion Post come from?  Shearer needs to refute what the MSM is writing.   The membership and labour voters stayed at home because they felt the party was not listening to them.  Shearer said he was listening. 

    Shearer can deliver real influence to the membership: the corollary is (a) the Caucus having a veto on when a leadership selection may be actioned and (b) the Caucus having a veto over the Memberships preference. 
    This is the litmus test

  8. A group of like minded individuals and groups have launched a petition calling on the New Zealand Government to vote against extending the regulatory authority of the International Telecommunications Union to the Internet.

    The petition is here, and it takes less than a minute to sign.

    Vote against the ITU having regulatory authority over the Internet Petition | GoPetition

    The background to the petition is:

    Right from inception, the Internet has had no central ruling authority. But this December, the International Telecommunications Union (ITU) is conducting a review of the international agreements governing telecommunications and aims to expand its regulatory authority to the Internet.

    Countries such as Russia which are advocating the ITU have regulatory authority over the Internet have advocated restrictions over the Internet “where it is used to interfere in the internal affairs of a state”. This represents a dramatic threat to the openness of the Internet, where countries could regulate content not just within their own borders, but over the entire Internet.

    Geographically isolated nations such as New Zealand and other Pacific Island nations have a significant economic and social interest in an open and well functioning internet. Accordingly, such changes to the ITU may harm our social and economic well being more than other nations.

    The ITU has been a closed organisation for nearly 150 years – they represent the antithesis of the Internet community’s open and inclusive approach. Civil society, private sector, technical experts, and Internet users will only have limited input in the process. This would be a significant departure from the open, participatory, multistakeholder model that has made the internet a successful driver of social and economic growth.

    If you support the continuing evolution of the multistakeholder internet, you are invited to read and sign this statement of principles.

    We are calling on the NZ Government to specifically:

    We request the New Zealand Government to vote against any amendments to the International Telecommunications Regulations, to be considered at the World Conference on International telecommunications 2012 (WCIT-12) which would give the ITU regulatory authority over the Internet, as it is not a truly open and transparent multistakeholder institution, but ultimately a body controlled by Governments.

    We also request the New Zealand Government to take a pro-active stance in advocating to other states the benefits of retaining the current open and transparent multi-stakeholder governance of the Internet and to invest in proactive representation and promotion of the Internet as a vital, global platform for access to information and communication, and an enabler of economic and social opportunity.

    Again, feel free to sign and promote the petition within your networks. This is an important issue.
    Vote against the ITU having regulatory authority over the Internet Petition | GoPetition

    (Replicated from here)

    • Relevant to the above post (another repeat):

      The Russian version of online encyclopedia Wikipedia closed its site on Tuesday in a one-day protest against what it said were plans by President Vladimir Putin to create his own version of the “Great Chinese Firewall” to block dissent on the Internet.

      Supporters of amendments to Russia’s information law, which were proposed by the ruling United Russia party and will be discussed in parliament on Wednesday, say changes are needed to protect children from harmful sites.

      But leaders of anti-Putin protests say the new law could shut down websites in Russia such as Facebook and Twitter without a court order and is meant to stop their opposition movement, which is organised via social networking sites.

      “These amendments may become a basis for real censorship on the Internet – forming a list of forbidden sites and IP addresses,” Russian Wikipedia said in a statement.

      “The following provisions and wording undertaken for discussion would lead to the creation of a Russian equivalent of the ‘Great Chinese Firewall’ … in which access to Wikipedia could soon be closed across the entire country.”

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/7260418/Russian-Wikipedia-closes-site-in-protest

      The same Russia that wants the ITU to be given regulatory authority over the Internet.

  9. FYI.

    “12 July 2012

    Chief of Staff
    ACT
    Chris Diack

    Dear Chris,

    As discussed yesterday by phone, I have a defended hearing on 19 September 2012 at the Auckland District Court in the matter of Police v PENELOPE MARY BRIGHT CRN 12004009078 , arising from my arrest for wilful trespass on 18 June 2012 at the electorate office of John Banks, ACT MP for Epsom, at 27 Gillies Avenue, Newmarket.

    Having been trespassed for 2 years from that address, I am seeking confirmation of how best to effect service of a ‘summons to witness’ for John Banks.

    I look forward to confirmation of a suitable address at your earliest possible convenience.

    Yours sincerely,

    Penny Bright ”
    …..

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

  10. weka 10

    In one of the threads yesterday the phrase ‘pete george’ appeared on the page 15 times. When I counted at 102 comments, that was a rate of 15%. Just saying.

    • David H 10.1

      Yep you just can’t keep the TROLL down.

      • Pete George 10.1.1

        There’s about 21 posts on Thursday from mike e – he’s a typical resident troll who’s a recidivist abuser who tries to label others trolls. It’s common for abusers here to accuse others of what they do themselves.

        • mike e 10.1.1.1

          Petey boy 90% of my blogs are undoing your diatribe of Nationals spin your continually spewing out.
          You have the odd bit of reason the rest is just repeating Nationals propaganda nothing more.
          Stick to UF’s policy like the very good idea on super and I won’t have to take your BS apart.

        • weka 10.1.1.2

          Maybe Pete, but I don’t hear lots of people groaning everytime mike e posts. And I haven’t noticed him continually grabbing the first post of Open Mike. Or link whoring to his blog. etc etc.

          There’s nothing wrong with someone posting alot (TS publishes lists of top posters from time to time), unless they annoy lots of people, which you do. You specialise in engaging in a kind of debate here that’s repetitive and for many people boring. It takes up debate resources that could be spent on other things, which is why people call you a troll.

          I completely understand why some people want to reply to you – Pascal’s Bookie’s calling you on bullshit yesterday at the top of Open Mike was inspired, and it’s important that your posts that are inaccurate or disingenuous are refuted. The problem is YOU. You’re like the bore in the pub who takes no social cues from those around him about how the conversation is going and whether people are happy or satisfied.

          What I can’t figure out is if you don’t understand how you influence the place, or if you don’t care, or if you think it’s a good thing. I suspect the latter two. You use this place for your own personal agenda, and the culture of TS be damned.

          • Pete George 10.1.1.2.1

            I hear from people who (sometimes at least) agree with me but won’t comment here due to the likelihood of attacks.

            What do you think is “the culture of TS”?

            • Kotahi Tane Huna 10.1.1.2.1.1

              People who agree with you will get sympathy, not attacks.

            • weka 10.1.1.2.1.2

              “I hear from people who (sometimes at least) agree with me but won’t comment here due to the likelihood of attacks. ”

              So? This has nothing to do with people disagreeing with your politics or views. It’s about your behaviour. Which is ironic because you come across as someone who believes in personal responsibility for one’s behaviour.

              “What do you think is “the culture of TS”?”

              That’s not relevant to this conversation. What I want to know is if YOU have any idea about the culture of this place. Do you?

              • I don’t think you can refer to ‘the culture’, there’s a number of intermingling cultures – there’s a lot of different individuals participatimg for a variety of reasons. There’s even quite a difference between the authors.

                I think I have a good understanding of some of the cultures. It’s difficult to know about the silent reader culture or the occasional contributor culture. There’s a variety of Labour orientated cultures, more than one Green culture, at least one Mana culture. Maori pops up a bit.

                I’d say there’s a dominant negative culture with fairly strong dollops of exclusiveness and non-inclusivenes, which I find odd for people from parties trying to rebuild or build their support. Some prominent participants seem to only want you if you toe their line.

          • Vicky32 10.1.1.2.2

            but I don’t hear lots of people groaning everytime mike e posts

            You don’t hear it, because I don’t say so here, but I groan when he posts! He writes like a primary school kid, he’s full of anger and seems to have a massive chip on his shoulder, and he joins my mental list of people who have very little to say, but insist on saying it anyway!

        • McFlock 10.1.1.3

          It’s common for abusers here to accuse others of what they do themselves.

           

          Yes, yes it is.
                 
             

    • prism 10.2

      weka
      Overall I’ve counted PG 16 comments today.

  11. freedom 11

    Would you like to view a succinct unemotional discussion on the Libor Scandal?

    We hear the Bankers’ cry that the glass is half full,. Yet the facts suggest there is a rampaging torrent of trouble approaching that is going to smash that glass against the wall of reality.

    • just saying 12.1

      Thanks. An interesting read.

    • Sam Hall 12.2

      Excellent link thankyou. My thoughts exactamundo, cept they had to be sought out over years, including years of “different health”.

      Credentialism was an anathema to me once i had experienced self-efficacy.

      Soooo, ye nay-sayers, follow Schopenhauer down through Nietzsche thru Heidegger and onto Habermas et al; and one is heading in the useful western direction towards the East.

      One could argue that post-work analysis is “constructive”—————————————————

      ACTIVE NIHILISTIC DECONSTRUCTION.

      Oh Friedrich…if you only knew what your solitude and despair began.

      • Carol 12.2.1

        Actually the influence of the East started earlier than that: e.g. on the Ancient Greeks, and on Christianity. I recall my stage one philosophy lecturer saying that, with reference to the Ancient Greek maxim of “know thyself”. Some eastern ideas came through Socrates, then Rome, into Christianity and the West.

        And it has long seemed logical to me that more people should be employed but for less hours, and all getting a living wage. But, of course, that would mean that it would be harder for the elite to be filthy rich and all powerful.

  12. Sam Hall 13

    DAVID CUNLIFFE.

    I believe that i am relatively informed about politics and politics in New Zealand.

    I have been an open-minded autodidact all my life.(neccessary response to personal experience of child abuse and neglect which is such a cancer for this country).

    Directed into, and spent over 20 years in one of the heaviest, dirtiest, blue-collar occupations there is, Heavy Diesel Mechanic.

    Completed an arts degree at home, full-time equivalent, self-directed over years, with one internal year and block courses.

    Worked supporting some of the most vulnerable people serviced by the health system etc, etc,

    Up to speed with the ideas and techniques behind politics and the history of social policy in NZ.

    While personally a nihilist, I believe that political movement grounded in socialist analysis is likely to be of the greatest benefit to the greatest number and the environment that supports us, therefore most helpful.

    New Zealand, with the right govt, may well lead the world again in quality of life type statistics.
    If Life gives ya lemons, lemonade (sans fructose) is indicated.

    Soo, some realpolitik;

    David Cunliffe appears to me to be the necessary leader for the Labour Party.
    I would not vote Labour though as long as they subscribe to Neo-Liberal Third Way nonsense.

    Greens and Mana are where the future is at IMHO.

    I dont even visit Labour flagged sites or blogs. LONG MEMORY.

    Julie-Ann Genter is “hot” and incredibly brainy. But lust must be seen as oppression leading to suffering……

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      autodidact

      Oh, look at that, a new word 😀 Describes my own education quite well although I don’t have any degrees (that latter probably has something to do with my opinion of degrees).

      Greens and Mana are where the future is at IMHO.

      IMO, nope but, then, I’m an anarchist and both those parties are too close to the authoritarian mindset – especially Mana – for my liking.

    • OneTrack 13.2

      “Greens and Mana are where the future is at IMHO”

      What happens after the rest of the country have emigrated to Aussie and there is no more “other people’s money”

      • Carol 13.2.1

        What happens after the rest of the country have emigrated to Aussie and there is no more “other people’s money”

        I guess the bankers will all just follow the people to Aussie, and do their best to siphon money off there.

  13. joe90 14

    A sobering piece by Chris Hedges: War Is Betrayal, Persistent Myths of Combat.

  14. smokeskreen 15

    Anyone been to the dentist lately? In NZ there doesn’t appear to be any fixed scale of charges – in other words they can charge what they like. After I was recently quoted $3,600 for a root canal and crown, I am shopping around. Why is it this profession seems to be able to get away with exhorbitant charging on such an important aspect of public health? Surely this must exclude large numbers of people from seeking regular dental care.

    • Uturn 15.1

      If in Auckland, go and see Royal Oak Dental 625 7069. Couldn’t tell you a price, but level of service and skill is exceptional. From experience, I owuld suggest a pre-treatment inspection from either Dr Pellow or Gibson-Hardie would be worth the time.

      • smokeskreen 15.1.1

        Unfortunately I live too far away from Auckland Uturn, but thanks anyway.

    • Vicky32 15.2

      After I was recently quoted $3,600 for a root canal and crown, I am shopping around.

      Good grief! Shocking…

    • Half Crown Millionare 15.3

      “Surely this must exclude large numbers of people from seeking regular dental care.”

      This would not only exclude those on lower incomes, but also those on middle incomes too.

    • OneTrack 15.4

      The government should set a fixed scale of charges and if that means the dentist can’t afford modern equipment well too bad. And if the dentists all take off to Aussie, then good riddance.

      • McFlock 15.4.1

        Oh yes,
        “treat the poor” = “c0mmunism with the berlin wall”.
         
           
        Thanks for reminding us. 

    • Anne 15.5

      I doubt you would get a root canal for much less that $1000 anywhere smokeskreen. And ‘crowns’ are a very expensive item – Labour intensive. $1600 for a crown does not sound too exorbitant in the scheme of things.

      “Surely this must exclude large numbers of people from seeking regular dental care.”

      It certainly does. In fact its been in the news in recent days.

    • Colonial Viper 15.6

      Take a flight to Thailand and get it done there at a top notch place. Have a holiday as well and still save $1K.

  15. Sam Hall 16

    xcuse moi. Luddite here. could someone pls advise how to capture and “paste” a link with windows vista and a mouse and internet explorer.

    Promise i wont wear it out on this blog.

    • McFlock 16.1

      right click the link, select “copy link location” (or similar).
             
      The right click the TS comment box and select “paste”. 

    • OneTrack 17.1

      What a load of rubbish. Where do these “academics” get these stupid ideas from? Not everything can be blamed on neoliberalism and this is right off the planet.

      Time for a bit of neoliberalism in the faculty that “employs” them, methinks.

      • higherstandard 17.1.1

        Hate crime, hate crime !!!

      • mike e 17.1.2

        one track Off the rails.Myopic idiot, economic research shows neoliberalism doesn’t work anyone with any intelligence can research the facts for them selves.
        Neo liberalism is a Cult with an agenda some what like Scientology its believers follow it in blind faith.

      • Carol 17.1.3

        So then, how do you explain the disproportionate amount of large people amongst the poorer classes? And the fact that it has become seen as a problem since the 1980s?

        How do yo explain that it seems to be a problem in societies embracing rampant consumerism?

        At least these academics have presented an argument…. maybe you should try it?

        • Pete George 17.1.3.1

          Ironic that rampant consumerism promotes thin, creates fat.

          How can consumerism be reversed? Ideally by people power but the ones that need to change see it the least.They are convinved that they’ll be loving it but they end up hating what they become. If they notice.

          • mike e 17.1.3.1.1

            You must be hating yourself Politically Gullible.
            As you have been Consumed by the rampant neoCon right.
            Maybe you could lead by example and reverse your position.
            The Neo Con right just love rampant consumerism .
            Thats their Mantra,
            Create vacuous people have their needs falsely met by the market like a gambler or alcoholic they need more and more .
            So the right wing say its personal responsibility and do nothing to change the bad behaviour.
            same with alcohol reform gambling reform.
            So the right expect every body to take responsibility while taking no responsibility for creating the problems in the first place!

          • Anne 17.1.3.1.2

            What the hell are you talking about PG?

        • higherstandard 17.1.3.2

          There’s a good little piece on it here Carol.

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/7256608/Fat-hatred-should-be-banned-scholar

          The most sensible part being the last couple of sentences.

  16. Sam Hall 18

    If LABOUR wish to ride the zeigeist to the treasury benches they could do worse than to take a socialist turn.

  17. joe90 19

    Romney panders to his base by getting booed at the NAACP conference and showing how disconnected he is. But that’s all right, he’s got secret black supporters.

  18. Colonial Viper 20

    Forget it unions, Labour doesn’t want you

    Seems to me that the Right Wing of the Labour caucus want to minimise the influence that workers’ organisations have over any future Labour leadership selection process.

    And they want caucus itself to have the biggest say in any leadership selection process, not the rank and file membership.

    Keep this anti-democratic centralised control from Wellington nonsense up and it’ll become more and more obvious that its only the Greens who truly value democracy.

    • McFlock 20.1

      Shades of lab4: ‘caucus knows best, now shut up and do what we say while we represent you.’

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        I’m asking around a bit more. So far it also sounds like Labour in Wellington also want to get rid of the regions’ ability to define who they want at the top of regional lists.

        • Te Reo Putake 20.1.1.1

          Sez who, CV? Sounds like bollocky bollocks to me.

          • Colonial Viper 20.1.1.1.1

            One of the proposals being considered is that Regions no longer rank their top 5 list candidates.

            Instead they just present their candidates as a block of equals, from which a much smaller Moderating Committee chooses who they want.

            • Te Reo Putake 20.1.1.1.1.1

              Probably wouldn’t make much difference, the first few are almost always sitting MP’s anyway. Interested in the smaller moderating committee suggestion though. That’s where the real power lies, so it might be an improvement to have a smaller, but more democratically fought over committee.
               
              But for all that, I’m sure lots of ideas are being considered. That’s a good thing.

              • Colonial Viper

                I’m not interested in good ideas being considered, I’m interested in good ideas getting through to implementation.

                And that is not what I am hearing.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  Whats your hurry, CV? Bunji has the timeline here. And this a useful link for continuing the debate. Just hit the ‘join’ button at the foot of the page.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Good to know that you are ‘nice and relaxed’ about things.

                    Yeah there’s a hurry on just to clue you up, its called Caucus Rule xy (where xy is an integer higher than 15 but less than 30). This rule institutes an opportunity to confirm the full confidence of caucus in the current leadership of the Labour Party going into an election year. Pretty important don’t you think, especially if the rule happens to get canned just before it comes due to be used again?

                    Or maybe you think we should just lay back, chill and stay cruisey?

                    With all due respect, fuck ‘clicking on a debate’ I’ve been making phone calls and writing emails this week.

              • Anne

                A smaller moderating committee is a must. In my view, that’s been a large part of the problem in the past. I was told there were 38 members of the 2011 moderating committee. Crazy? There should be 10 -12 members only.

                It probably started out that way back in the mid 1990s, but over time every Tom, Dick and Harry special Labour sub-group was demanding a place at the moderating table. And each sub-group was pushing their own candidates regardless of talent and/or suitability. Hence there were some bad decisions, and a few very good MPs ended up out of parliament altogether.

                • muzza

                  Smaller numbers of course being much easier to “control”.

                  Just keep whistling along to keep thinking the Labour party are not owned the same way the NACT is..

                  Same control, same outcomes!

                  • Anne

                    No muzza it doesn’t work like that. The moderating committee is the body which makes the final list placements after all the regions have submitted their list preferences. Those preferences are agreed to after a weekend of candidate speeches and written biographical details. The Mod. Committee ignores those preferences at their peril.

                    In a nutshell, what appears to have been happening is: with such a large number of people involved at the final committee stage, the left hand ends up not knowing what the right hand is doing. The make-up of the committee is, and would continue to be, an even mix of party and parliamentary representatives only with fewer people involved.

    • mike e 21.1

      The scary thing is they have about the same debt ratio per head of population as NZ.
      Goldman Sachs lied and colluded to these banks to defraud them the Greek people the hardest working people in Europe and the rescue countries including us $100 million so far .
      Goldman Sachs the SCF of the world. yeah I don’t see all the
      NeoConartists defending these ponzi scamming criminals.
      Their heros!

    • muzza 21.2

      Actually the FED owns all the debt, and the rest is owned by the ECB. Those two are the same entity.

      Those listed banks are are simply for “show”

      They are all just the central cartel!

  19. Carol 22

    International sports has been co-opted by the corporates and often draws on taxpayer dollars. It’s not enough that the UK is turning people’s homes into a military encampment, with surface-to-air missiles on their roofs, but the Olympics is also one big tax haven:

    http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/commentanalysis/corporatewatch/thegreatolympictaxswindle.aspx

    In July and August this year Stratford, East London, will become a temporary tax haven. Millions of pounds will be channelled through foreign subsidiary companies operating in the area before it leaves these shores for the pockets of shareholders and CEOs the world over.
    […]
    Without these tax sweeteners the IOC would simply take their corporate circus elsewhere and so begins a race to the bottom in a bidding process that echoes the offshore system. New tax rules ushered in as part of the winning Team GB bid include ‘a temporary exemption from UK Corporation Tax and UK Income Tax for certain non-resident companies’. (1)

    The legislation is written to include ‘partner’ organisations such as McDonald’s and Visa. Both, along with other ‘partners’, look set to make a tax-free fortune. The former will a monopoly on vending branded food and the latter a total monopoly on venue and ticket payment methods.
    […]
    The new legislation also exempts all foreign nationals working on the games in the UK from paying income tax on any earnings. Thousands will be exempt from taxation from competitors to media workers (including journalists, technicians and producers) to representatives of official Games bodies and technical officials (including judges, referees and classifiers) along with the athletes themselves.

    Another reason for me to not watch any of the Olympics. These greedy corporates have taken everything that is part of the common good, often funded with taxpayer money, and turned it into a lucrative earner for themselves.

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