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Open mike 13/02/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 13th, 2013 - 115 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

115 comments on “Open mike 13/02/2013”

  1. Ad 1

    Top work by the Salvation Army this morning, launching its State of the Nation report.

  2. Te Reo Putake 2

    Good question posed in the Guardian. Should Californian police lives be risked capturing fugitive killer Christopher Dorner when a drone strike would be so much more efficient?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/11/chris-dorner-drones-lapd

    • Bill 2.1

      A facile argument…actually, any argument… seeking to justify extra judicial killings being carried out by the state, falls a long way short of “a good question (being) posed”.

      • Colonial Viper 2.1.1

        Summary judgement and execution, enacted by remote control hellfire missle. What’s not to like about extra-judicial “efficiency”. I hear Afghan villagers have really got behind the concept as being “fair and balanced”.

        Further in the US, it would save all that messy expensive bullshit to do with death row: lawyers, appeals, incarceration at tax payer expense for the next 15 years etc.

        Reminds me of good old Chinese (or Russian) style justice. Very efficient. Get it done, move on, the only documentation left to do being an after-action report and some coroners paper work.

        Also, bringing home military tactics, procedures and technology formerly developed and used against muslim terrorists for the purposes of actions against US citizens on US soil – what could possibly be unconstitutional about that?

        It couldn’t be that the survivalist nut types in the US had a point all along about not being able to trust the motivations of the Feds, could it???

    • Te Reo Putake 2.2

      Looks like the killer has been cornered. Dorner’s apparently been found in a mountain cabin; so much for the assymetrical war etc. boasting he did on fb. Just another yank nutter with easy access to weapons.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21436588

  3. ad 3

    - is it still possible to have one legal standard for summary justice operating across the world; can’t we just be a little loose for those people Richard Prosser describes?

    - if you’re innocent, don’t you have nothing to worry about?

    - wouldn’t this make leadership selections and country elections easier?

    - which side were you on watching Terminator Salvation?

    - when every country in the world with a significant defence capability operates fleets of them, can we do away with armed forces then?

    - are we not entertained?

  4. Daveo 4

    Shearer on bfm. Jesus Christ.

    Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

    He starts by talking about the weather and then can’t even keep that up.

    • fatty 4.1

      Somehow I made it to the end.
      @ 8mins Shearer gives Key a pat on the back for his punitive response to students who are in Australia.
      WTF Shearer?.. this is a student radio station. You just failed big time.
      Students have just been told quite clearly why its not worth getting out of bed on election day.
      Is this it Labour? Is this your tertiary education policy? The student loan scam will continue under stumble-face?
      FFS Labour…you are killing this county.
      The only upside of this interview is that most students would have turned it off before Fozzie Bear mumbled on about treating our educated people as criminals.

    • Daveo 4.2

      Really, Daveo, you’re being a bit desperate. Shearer was asked what he did on the weekend by the DJ, replies to that bit of fluff, then moves on to answer more relevant questions quite competently, before er, returning to the weather. Pretty normal stuff for this kind of interview.

      BTW, where is it from? BFM?

      • Colonial Viper 4.2.1

        Note comment 4 and comment 4.2 in this thread

        It appears in 4.2 someone is using Daveo’s same email address and handle to question and criticise Daveo himself in comment 4.0

        This is very weird.

        [lprent: It is the badly configured client side web page caching issue that pops up in a few places. ]

      • ianmac 4.2.2

        Daveo. A bit odd talking to yourself???
        I listened via your link. Sounded like a good interview to me. He answered the questions. Was unafraid to support the decision to get NZ students in Australia to repay their debts. I think that Mr Shearer was more informative than Mr Key in a similar scenario. And chatting about the weather was the DJ’s initiative, not Mr Shearer.

    • Colonial Viper 4.3

      I didn’t think that Shearer did too badly. But the remarkable thing is that he conveys almost nothing in terms of substance or insight into the topics he is asked about. And certainly nothing about his own personal convictions on issues.

      For instance. Why did he attend Big Gay Out? Response. Well, there are Gay Labour MPs who have worked really hard for gay rights, but in fact it was just down the road from home so I could take a stroll. WTF. An opportunity to espouse important principles and values of equality, equal rights, and unhindered participation in our society to tens of thousands of people, missed, in favour of “It was within walking distance”.

      • Te Reo Putake 4.3.1

        Tens of thousands? Listening to BFM? Maybe back when Graeme Hill did the morning show …

        edit: just spotted the Daveo doppleganger comment. That was me. It appears that I’m using the same IP address as Daveo today. Not the first time that’s happened; my work takes me to a variety of workplaces and I log in to whatever broadband server is handiest. For what it’s worth, Daveo’s email address is a generic gmail account, so I don’t know who he or she is.

        • marty mars 4.3.1.1

          that sounds very weird

          have you thought about changing back to ‘voice of reason’ – your te reo joke lacks ompf and the right wingers don’t get it anyway – might be a bit more honest voice.

        • Colonial Viper 4.3.1.2

          Ahhh fascinating…

        • Te Reo Putake 4.3.1.3

          Righties never saw the objectivist based humour in The Voice of Reason either, Marty. Come to think of it, not many lefties did either. I’ve been TRP since Waitangi Day last year and the change was both out of respect for that celebration and also to end the needless confusion TVoR seemed to bring. However, using the maori translation has allowed the occasional witless racist to riff on it, too. Hi, Pete!

          The IP thing, and using multiple computers, is apparently why some of my comments also occasionally come up as TVoR. I’ll try to remember to check the ‘name and email’ boxes in future so it doesn’t happen again.

          • marty mars 4.3.1.3.1

            I liked the voice of reason personally and it had a reasonable back story/comment history. But yes the new name has caused a few laughs for sure.

        • lprent 4.3.1.4

          I just posted this on the site of the witless whiner… Pete George. Saw a linkback when I was clearing spam.

          It is the classic (and slowly diminishing) cached page in a badly configured web proxy problem.

          Because we allow anyone to leave messages without logging in, the details of what pseudonym and email address are stored on a cookie held on the client machine. This is sent to the server when a request for a page is made and is filled in on the page by the server in the appropriate fields. It means that people commenting without logging in don’t have to spend their time plugging in the fields all of the time.

          Now this works almost everywhere because we have the settings for all of our *dynamic* pages set to not cache (and all of the static images, css, js, etc to cache). But it has problems when it runs into a web proxy that doesn’t obey the caching instructions in the http and html headers.

          What happens then is that if there are two or more people are commenting at the same time, then the dumbarse web proxy is quite likely to serve up the wrong cached page. In practice this has happened only in few workplaces that I know of in the last 5 years. In both places it is a known technical issue. One hasn’t shown up for a couple of years. The other is obviously still an issue.

          I have investigated alternatives to using the server side insertion of the cookie info. Javascript proved to be far to problematic for security reasons, a pretty extreme level of variation between browsers, and that a good number of readers have it turned off. The auto-fill on many browsers is just too flaky to rely on.

          Of course I could just turn off the insertion of the name and e-mail fields, or force everyone to login or shift everything over to running on https (with all of the problems that has for dialup readers).

          But doing this for the slowly diminishing numbers of poorly configured proxies that don’t obey caching instructions, it is simply excessive. Instead whenever it causes problem, I tell the participants that they should whine like you do to their techs.

          And incidentally, your site will have exactly the same problem in those same workspaces

          So TRP, and Daveo – irritate your techs (again)..

          • Te Reo Putake 4.3.1.4.1

            Cheers, LP, will do. But I will also check the boxes in the meantime as well.

            Good ol’ PG, eh? I see he’s too dim to even work out which ‘daveo’ comment was the doppleganger. Wait till he gets to the line about racist commentaters; how long dya reckon it’ll take before he twigs which Pete I was referring to?

            PS, PG, ya wally. I have nothing to do with the leadership of the LP, apart from badgering them at every reasonable opportunity to lift their game on social media. I don’t do their talking for them and never have. Didn’t LP explain this to you only a few weeks ago?

        • just saying 4.3.1.5

          That was me. It appears that I’m using the same IP address as Daveo today. Not the first time that’s happened; my work takes me to a variety of workplaces and I log in to whatever broadband server is handiest….

          I would have thought the chance of it happening once would be remote. You must be visiting some interesting workplaces.

          ps, I bet Daveo knows who you are now

          • Te Reo Putake 4.3.1.5.1

            I’m grateful to have a job that keeps me in touch with working Kiwis in a wide variety of industries accross rural, provincial and urban NZ, js. It certainly gives me access to a wide range of opinions and experiences which I hope adds a little authenticity to some of my comments at TS.

            As for Daveo, the wee scamp, I’m pretty sure we both think we know who the other is online, but that’s Ok. Neither of us is telling. The bigger problem would be others on that server logging in to a TS comment box to try and suss both of us out.

  5. A FRIENDLY REMINDER FOLKS!

    Got a couple of STUNNING new banners which will be unfurled today – first outside the offices of Mighty River Power, then outside the offices of Mercury Energy!

    Opposed to the sale of State Assets by this minority National Government (which only got 59 out of 121 MPs in the 2011 election?

    Remember – the vote on the Mixed Ownership Model Act was 61 – 60.

    National – who did campaign on asset sales – were dependent on the votes of dodgy John Banks – who arguably should NOT be an MP – let alone a Minister, and Peter Dunne – who DID NOT campaign on supporting State Asset sales.

    SO – WHERE’S THE ‘MANDATE’?

    Do the maths!

    NO MAJORITY – NO MANDATE!

    (In my considered opinion :)

    http://gpjanz.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/gpja-454-rally-against-assett-sales-6pm-tomorrow-in-wellington/

    WHAT’S ON IN AOTEAROA/NEW ZEALAND

    Wednesday, February 13, 12-2pm, outside head office of Mighty River Power, 23-29 Albert St, Auckland CBD

    PROTEST! Say No to Asset Sales 3:30 – 5:30 pm,
    outside Mercury Energy Office, 602 Great South Road, Penrose.
    …………………………………………………

    Wednesday, February 13, 6pm, Frank Kitts Park in Wellington

    Rally to oppose government asset sales.
    The Rainbow Warrior will be in town and will drop a banner off her side in support. Join the crowd after work at Frank Kitts, bring the kids.

    Hear interesting speakers (named below) and some of Wellington’s finest musicians and performers, Aroha Priest, Warren Pomana, Marama Te Kira, Skank Jigger, Lucky Ngatuere, Tribal Rizin and Brass Razoo.

    Now’s the time to show you care, if you don’t like the idea of selling our assets. No other time will do. So, Wellington and anybody else, come on down and bring a couple of people with you.

    Greenpeace is backing this event, so show your support for them when they’re here. Say No To Asset sales is a rally not a protest.

    We all recognise the diversity of opinion in opposition to the government’s proposed sale of state assets.

    We all know that we will have to fight hard to stop the sales, but that we can do it. Only by retaining 100% control of the power companies can we, the public, develop and enjoy a clean, affordable, NZ-owned energy system. Selling removes these opportunities and, crucially, replaces the chance to investigate historical and contemporary violations of the terms of the Treaty of Waitangi with mere promises that the issue of rights in water between Government and tangata whenua will somehow be unaffected by privatisation.

    The following speakers at this Rally represent the diverse range of groups, organisations and factions and the vast majority of people in Aotearoa/NZ opposed to the sale of our state assets. Celia Wade-Brown, Major of Wellington City Council; Justin Duckworth, Anglican Bishop of Wellington; Nathan Argent, National Policy Adviser, Greenpeace; Dr Geoff Bertram. Senior Economics Lecturer, Victoria University; Dr Jane Kelsey, Professor Law, Auckland University; Maanu Paul, Chair, NZ Maori Council; Peter Love, Te Atiawa & Board Member Wellington Tenths Trust with mokopuna, Kaira Love, Te Atiawa; Frances Kuo, Spokesperson, Aotearoa is Not for Sale; Dr Ganesh Nana, Chief Economist, BERL; Roy Reid, National President, Grey Power; John Maynard & Steve Booth, Spokespeople, Peoples Power Ohariu.
    _____________________________________________________________________________

    Forwarded by Penny Bright
    A Spokesperson for the Switch Off Mercury Energy community group.

    • Sweetd 5.1

      Auckland rates due 20th of Feb, have you paid you rates arrears yet Penny? Are you allowed to vote if you are in rate arrears? Are you allowed to stand for mayor?

      [RL: Penny has chosen to withhold paying her rates as a means of political protest; as distinct from avoiding an obligation to the Council. Your failure to mention this is of course a deliberate distortion. Virtually all protest involves some action which can be described as illegal at one level, while ethically justifiable at another. Your approach is here is not a discussion, it's abuse. Don't keep repeating it.]

      • bad12 5.1.1

        You keep asking that same stupid personal question, do you live under a bridge,stink worse than a goat but are not one….

      • Te Reo Putake 5.1.2

        RL: Penny also has a proud history of challenging established authority in other ways too. She was the first woman to become a licenced welding inspector back when it was an all male club. All power to her (no pun intended!).

  6. xtasy 6

    Hi ALL -

    After getting a bit carried away with comments over a week ago, which was due to honest frustrations and a level of built up anger, I wish to apologise to Irishbill for losing focus on the topic, in a thread he had launched with good intentions (http://thestandard.org.nz/on-engagement-with-the-labour-caucus/).

    Retrospectively I thank IrishBill for giving me a week of a “break” or holiday, as it enabled me to have a closer look at some policy and plans that this present National led government is pushing through in the health areas.

    Particularly mental health and addiction treatment and care should be of interest to all those that also are highly concerned about the welfare reforms presently before the Social Services Committee in the form of the Social Security (Benefit Categories and Work Focus) Amendment Bill. A high number of sick and invalids on benefits do have mental health issues, and some have addiction illnesses.

    There has (from Bennett, English and Key) been talk about putting more resources into “helping” those that are on sickness and invalid’s benefits, to somehow get well and fit enough to return to work or training.

    Well, by looking at the Ministry of Health’s “Rising to the Challenge: The Mental Health and Addiction Service Development Plan 2012–2017″, which Associate Minister for Health Peter Dunne (UF) presented without much notice by media and the public just about a week before Christmas last year, I have discovered, how hollow, false and misleading the statements by the government are once again.

    The plan can be downloaded from this website:
    http://www.health.govt.nz/publication/rising-challenge-mental-health-and-addiction-service-development-plan-2012-2017

    It is full of high aspirations, “new” goals, ambiguous slogans, much talk about more responsibilities, efficiencies, effectiveness, mentions repeatedly KPIs (“key performance indicators”), but delivers very little of substance in regards to what will actually be done, what staff will be employed and trained, what resources will be made available, and how better outcomes are supposed to be achieved.

    In short: It basically reveals that the mentally ill and addicted will first and foremost have to help themselves, and additional resources will NOT be made available, new resources for new focus and target areas will instead need to come from “less effective” areas in health care, which means taking money off some to help others (“re-allocation”). “Robbing Peter to pay Paul” comes to mind.

    Also does it seem to be leading to a “mass medication” program that will be expected from GPs and other primary care deliverers, as what I have heard and experienced at the coal face is, that these low cost “solutions” are now the primary way of dealing with mental health and addiction.

    Key stakeholders and professional health organisation appear to not have been consulted properly and sufficiently, so many have delivered damning criticism at this plan.

    See some here:
    http://www.nzno.org.nz/home/consultation/articletype/articleview/articleid/1350/rising-to-the-challenge–the-mental-health-and-addiction-service-development-plan-2012-2017
    (see final draft consultation at bottom, PDF download)

    http://www.nzma.org.nz/sites/all/files/NZMA%20Submission%20on%20the%20Mental%20Health%20%26%20Addiction%20Service%20Development%20Plan%202012-2017.pdf

    http://www.psychology.org.nz/cms_show_download.php?id=1753

    http://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/assets/documents/Standards–Policy/Submissions/2012.11.02-MoH-Rising-to-the-Challenge.pdf

    http://anzasw.org.nz/social_work_practice/topics/show/426-release-of-rising-to-the-challenge-the-mental-health-and-addiction-service-development-plan-2012-2017
    (download their submission in PDF by clicking the templet at the top right)

    http://www.nzcmhn.org.nz/files/file/338/Rising%20to%20the%20Challenge%20Feedback%20form%204102012.pdf

    Now while all this is going on “discretely” in the background, I encourage all those interested to do a thorough read and study of all this. It appears – once again, that neither the media, nor politicians, are discussing and debating this highly important information in the open. I ask also, where is the opposition spokeswoman on health, whom I heard deliver yet another very mediocre speech in Parliament yesterday afternoon.

    Maybe a Labour front bench re-shuffle will see to it that someone more dedicated will be looking at all relevant stuff that a spokesperson in such key area should be looking at???

    As nobody in government seems to be able to rise to it, maybe someone there will soon “Rise to the Challenge”?

    • Colonial Viper 6.1

      a warm welcome back xtasy…glad to hear you are more at peace this week.

      • xtasy 6.1.1

        CV – more at peace with myself, kind of, but still committed to address issues that need attention, no matter what party affiliation or other orientations.

        Thanks!

        • Rogue Trooper 6.1.1.1

          Yay xtasy (keep up the good work) I recommend a little extra-curricular reading and gardening myself. Oh, and listening to a little Bach, Elgar, Michael Nyman, Handel,
          Vivaldi, Metallica!

          • xtasy 6.1.1.1.1

            RT – Yes, thanks, I have a fair bit of that in my collection, but I need to take more time out and play some of it. I have had a couple of years of pretty hard work, not for pay by the way, but just to take a stand, to defend justice, and to take on some real big players in the NZ admin system environment.

            Heaps of stuff I and others learned, and more is to come, as a “mission” has been discovered and is being realised, to take things further.

            • BLiP 6.1.1.1.1.1

              .

              Hey there – always good to welcome people back from their bans. I’ve been guilty of deserving a ban or two myself when the blood starts to boil and hit the Enter key before taking a deep breath. These days, I keep this pinned to the wall next to my monitor . . . it helps keep things in perspective.

  7. David H 8

    Joyce will be live on TV3′s website at 12.45pm over the novapay debacle, I wonder what dog whistle he will try to spin this time.

    • David H 8.1

      Yeah right no sign of it he must have changed his mind

      • Johninsg 8.1.1

        No need for Joyce to front up … yet, … thanks to Prosser.

        And whatever might, or might not, be Winston’s tactics, the stupid Prosser thing is taking attention away from Winston’s own questions being raised in the House about National’s appointment of Jenny Shipley to the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Review Panel, her directorship on Mainzeal, and questions about conflicted interests.

  8. David H 9

    And on the TV3 website here’s Key showing what an unprincipled prick he really is.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Opinion-Key-open-to-a-deal-with-Wogistan-Party/tabid/1382/articleID/286612/Default.aspx

    Or it could just be Gower having a bad news day making shit up again.

  9. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 10

    What appears to be a solid piece of helpful information with a warning to pay attention to.
    Under radionz news – rural for today

    Blind push for production brings risk – consultant
    A Waikato agricultural consultant says the dairy industry’s focus on more cows, more milk and ever-more production does not equal more profit for all farmers, and in fact, it puts some at a lot more risk.

    • Draco T Bastard 10.1

      That’s just common sense but you won’t find either the economists or politicians accepting that.

    • aerobubble 10.2

      English contends that the productive sector wants to pay their workers less by arguing for intervention to bring the dollar down. But as we know National hate looking at other aspects of the accountancy equation. Producers who pay more to their workers and less to pay down foreigner held debt (by not growing the debt in the first place) would give their employees more buying power and so increase the demand for foreign exchange which in turn would drive down the high doller.

      So let’s make this clear, people are demanding NZ dollars because our assets are under valued, our workers are underpaid, and our government rig the tax system to reward capital gain at the expense of organic NZ economic growth, but worse, the global system is rigged to reward those who get to pay their taxes in a low tax haven, and grow capital gain in higher tax NZ.

      But English doesn’t like to put meat on the argument, or emphasis that when NZ employers pay NZ employees more the economy will boom, when NZ companies go bust that have too much debt, and NZ owned companies take over and pay their workers more, the dollar will drop, when NZ companies vote for a capital gains tax on a second home (investment property) then the housing bubble won’t burst just the pressure will come off and builders can start building to the demands of the NZ market not the demands of the world foreign speculators who use NZ.

      Its precisely because the NZ manager classes read the Herald that they keep having problems understanding why the dollar is so high and who (them) needs to change their nasty habits of debt, low wages and chronically deficient neo-liberal economic thinking. You don’t get healthy as
      a person by eating junk food, we won’t as a nation get health economically by listening to the turd
      way National and the Herald newspaper.

      • Foreign Waka 10.2.1

        Mr English is a farmer, that should give the answer. He is only interested to have a return for his mates.

        • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1

          Mr English is most certainly NOT a farmer.

          • Johninsg 10.2.1.1.1

            That is true.

            Mr English has some farm like clothes and ready-to-wear muddied boots that provide the right outfit and look for when he goes walky walky down South. But that is about it, ha ha ha!

            Mr English’s hands have not seen much farming and outdoors work. Anyone who has a sharp eye or has shaken real farmers’ hands and his hand can tell the difference.

            • felixviper 10.2.1.1.1.1

              What do you mean “much”?

              The dude went straight from uni to treasury and then to parliament. He’s the archetypal career bureaucrat.

          • aerobubble 10.2.1.1.2

            His Brother is the farming lobby uber leader.

  10. Rogue Trooper 11

    Interesting. On Rural Roundup ;) the other day- China, by volume, largest importer of our lamb, yet returning only $4 / kilo, half that to UK which is still largest importer by value. dear oh dearie me.

    Yahoo hacking cough; take some more medication.

    Sooo , now we are struglling to maintain species from extinction, Y-E.P , species that our own lifestyles are exterminating. Exterminate! Exterminate!

    The City! “…man’s greatest achievement ” -Ellul (not withstanding, the toilet-roll cathedral)

    Northland farmers panhandle “…they’re cutting people like us out!”

    when Sport becomes the fraud and drug-crime news. (shame on those hippies though, smokin’ dope and watchin’ sport on Sky)

    watched Seven Sharp, before the accident and surveillance porn that followed, and is it just me or do the presenters seem ultra-scripted and adhered to the prompters before them; not very natural. And Winston Peters? Is he on drugs or just drunk most evenings?

    Education?- “the gap between the poorest 3 deciles and the wealthiest 3 grew 31.6 % between 2010 – 2011, despite a fall in achievement at the top schools”- Metiria Turei

    even at study group this morning, the consensus was that these cultural memes of self-reliance, self-made, independent blah blah, will be our undoing. (see this attitude of “tolerance” of kiwis in Oz by their citizens repeated in the MSM, dear oh dear, paybacks (for our disproportionate earlier successes and hubris) may be painful)

  11. Rogue Trooper 12

    on the Bohm, yet comes in for a lot of criticism. (“wat you lookin’ at Willis?”)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphic_resonance#Morphic_resonance

  12. bad12 13

    Sadly the private prosecution of ACT leader,(ACT leader that’s a hilarity),John Banks has had to be withdrawn as the original paperwork was incorrectly filled out,(wonder if they let all the minor crims off for the same excuse),

    Leave has been sought from the Judge in the Wellington district Court to re-lay the charges…

    • muzza 13.1

      Chalk another one up to the brothers…

      This slips off radar, as it was always going to do!

      [lprent: Tomorrow is the end of the ban. But removing the block. Feel free to comment. ]

  13. bad12 14

    ”We would be out in a war zone armed only with a pea-shooter” so says the Member for Dipton Bill English who as Minister of Finance seems to be ‘out in a war zone armed only with a pea-brain’ when it comes to intervening in the NZ$ so as to save as many jobs in this country as possible,

    Bill was talking about lowering the Kiwi$ as lowering the living standards of all New Zealander’s versus having another 10,000 or so Kiwi’s lose their jobs altogether and become a political football for Him and the Minister of overseas travel for employment Paula to kick around,

    Bill’s actually saying that it’s great to have 10′s of 1000′s of New Zealand workers to throw on the scrap heap of unemployment so as to keep the prices of i pads’ flat-screen TV’s and other imported shit cheap to buy for those who vote for this abysmal Slippery lead National Government,

    Maybe Bill hasn’t thought of it, but even if He has He wont tell us, that a lower NZ dollar will encourage people to make the stuff we need here in New Zealand instead of importing it all from the cheap labour countries thus creating jobs,

    Bill’s just another liar who refuses to face the reality that in the future we all are going to have to get by on less,there is no grand recovery from the ‘smart economy, export lead or otherwise, and the sooner the politicians in the Parliament begin to address this particular FACT and how we are to better share around our monetary resources the sooner we can all get down to actually doing so…

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      Well, Bill’s just operating in the conventional, orthodox, neoliberal framework. If we were to print every tenth dollar the NZ government required instead of borrowing it from overseas, we’d find that the NZD would drop in value fairly significantly.

      • bad12 14.1.1

        Yep and then use the monies to embark on a proper affordable housing program where the government builds the houses and either sells them or rents them to tenants at 25% of income thus becoming the mortgage holder,

        The monies taken in by Government from those it was the mortgage holder too could then be ticked off the original ‘debt’ of having created the money in the first place and the actual cash brought into the coffers could be redistributed as social programs and welfare payments to those most in need,

        Thus any price rises from having lowered the value of the NZ$ by printing the money in the first place would be negated by those paying lower rent costs and lower rates of mortgage to the Government as the lender,

        It’s obvious from here that ‘this’ or a variation of this will have to occur within the next ten years or the whole s**t-pile will come to a grinding halt, which would be fun but not of any real benefit in societal terms…

  14. bad12 15

    Richard Prosser is appearing on TV1′s 7sharp tonight, hope they ask Him why He found it necessary to be attempting to board domestic flights in New Zealand armed with a pocket-knife,

    that’s the sort of s**t that Terrorists get up to…

  15. Latest Roy Morgan out. Labour up 3 and National down 2 …

    http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2013/4865/

    [lprent: better. But the GCR is a pain. ]

    • Te Reo Putake 16.1

      Shearer Out Now!

      Love the headline:

      NATIONAL (44%) LEAD DOWN OVER LABOUR (34.5%)
      LABOUR, GREENS WITH MINOR PARTIES WOULD WIN ELECTION

      • bad12 16.1.1

        Think Labour+Green+Mana would give a simple majority on those numbers, polls should get better for labour next month again as the left wing of NZfirst abandon ship big-time,

        If Roy was doing as i suspect, reading the National vote from the high side of the margin of error and Labour from the low side he appears to have rectified that,

        Not party in the street material but looking good 20 month’s out from an election, wonder if this will provoke another fainting spell from Slippery…

      • The Al1en 16.1.2

        “Shearer Out Now!”

        Now you’re getting it. :lol:

        At 34% he’s still Colonel Mumblefuck leading the charge of the slight brigade.

        • Te Reo Putake 16.1.2.1

          Actually, I’m waiting for tomorrow’s post; something like …

          Another Flatlining Roy Morgan Poll:

          The latest Roy Morgan poll has National on 44%, Labour 34.5%, the Greens on 13.5%, and NZ First on 4%.

          It just amazes me the government can still poll close to 45% after stuff up, after stuff up.

          I’m sick of hearing from the Greens “just wait, it’ll get better”. Well it’s not. You’ve been stuck on 13.5 for 4 weeks. So stop making excuses.

          Labour have done their bit.

          Maybe it’s time the Greens started focusing on the important stuff rather than pulling silly stunts. Instead, take some risks and put yourselves on the line for the people who put you there.

          Because right now, it’s just sad.

          • bad12 16.1.2.1.1

            Trying to enable a National victory in 2014 by attacking the Green Party in a fit of overblown egoism over a margin of error poll rise for the Labour Party isn’t very clever…

            • Te Reo Putake 16.1.2.1.1.1

              Over two hundred comments on that post attacking Labour only two weeks ago. Sauce for the goose etc. But point taken bad; we’re all in this together.

              It’s been a good few days on the unity front actually. Signs of a rapproachment between the LP and TS and now the Roy Morgan result hint at good times to come.

              • xtasy

                TRP: “We’re all in it together”

                Right, so why not get all the parties on the “left” together, to throw off their vanities and individual member’s personal ambitions, and hammer out ONE unified left party, so that all are in it for the same one cause, which will have synergy effects, as the entrepreneurial operators so often describe the growth effect of positive combinations.

                I still cannot believe, how so many choose to be divided, and it is so, when really, much more should combine and join forces.

                Is it not the “branding” crap, that led us to this, now we have “Labour”, “National”, “Greens” and the likes, the word “party” is not mentioned, as it is perceived as a negative word from the past.

                We have individuals try to portray themselves as “leaders”, as “spokespersons”, as “members” and whatever, but they brand themselves too, so the unifying factor becomes less relevant.

                It is a result of the “corporatisation” of politics, is it not? YOU do as MP or whatever politician No longer represent, you are a “brand” to “stand” for a kind of label “option”, and anything else, even personal involvement is not even considered anymore.

                This stinks, as this thinking has totally corrupted politics and society as a whole. I want to deal with people, persons and meet and see people face to face. I want to know who represents me in person, not some glossed up web page, a Facebook facade, a poster or whatever crap they present now, but I do not get what I expect.

                So politics is becoming too faked, like so bloody much, I am afraid. Who can I trust, relate to and even vote?

            • Colonial Viper 16.1.2.1.1.2

              34.5%, that’s a Labour high not achieved since late 2010/mid 2011 under Goff. Not bad at all. 34.5% in the polls on E-day will likely win the Treasury benches for Labour, at the cost of having to give up a lot of relatively minor portfolios to support parties.

              • Te Reo Putake

                Lordy, just imagine the black ops posts on KB and WO in the weeks before Xmas about cabinet scenarios. All the ‘Greens To Get Treasury, Police and the Army’ Shock Horrors.

              • McFlock

                It’s close, but the next one will probably go down a touch. Progressing well, but still not out of the woods IMO.

                [edit] lolfuck CV – we might be slowly swapping sides at this rate :)

                • The important poll will be in 6 months time. Goff got a bounce when he ditched Carter but it did not last for very long.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Indeed. Certainly not out of the woods. The high water mark pre-Nov 2011 was 36% or 37%. It didn’t hold to election day. A lot of work needs to be done.

                  However the wrong move would be for caucus to see this as vindication of the “tide coming in” strategy.

                  • McFlock

                    aye – in 2014 I’d be looking to have at least a couple of 40%+ under the labour belt, just as breathing room for the campaign.

    • Te Reo Putake 16.2

      Parliament, assuming all electorate seats stay the same:

      ACT New Zealand 1 1 1
      Green Party 17 0 17
      Labour Party 44 22 22
      Mana 1 1 1
      Māori Party 1 3 3
      National Party 56 42 14
      United Future 0 1 0
      120 70 53 (123)

      And if Labour pick up a couple from National and 1 from the MP:

      ACT New Zealand 1 1 1
      Green Party 17 0 17
      Labour Party 44 25 19
      Mana 1 1 0 1
      Māori Party 1 2 2
      National Party 56 40 16
      United Future 0 1 1

      • Te Reo Putake 16.2.1

        Whoops, got caught out editing that data. If no electorate seats change (ie MP, UF and ACT are a combined 5 seats, Mana 1), the current Gov’t have 61 seats in a 123 seat Parliament. Lab/Green the same, so it’d be up to Hone! (well, more likely, Peter Dunne would rediscover his socialist roots).

        However, with just a minimum of likely electorate seat changes (two off National, 1 from the MP) its Nats et al 50, Lab/Green 51 (plus Hone’s one on the side) in a 122 seat house.

        Of course the latter is a conservative reading of what might happen to the electorate seats. If the MP lose 2 seats, not 1, or Dunne or Banks miss out, its curtains for the Nats.

        • bad12 16.2.1.1

          Lolz, rifmatic not your strong suit then Te Reo, you mean Labour/Green 61 v National and assorted scum 60 right…

          • Te Reo Putake 16.2.1.1.1

            LOL, that’s still not as bad as posting an angry comment on a 3 year old post over at Red Alert, as I did earlier today! That’s a classic.

            But the good news is that the only man smiling tonight over in National towers is Steven Joyce. btw, if Joyce is Mr Fixit, does that make Key Mr Fuxit?

            • bad12 16.2.1.1.1.1

              i think Slippery might be considering more of an Asian persona next, Mr Legginit Soon, i believe is His preferred name…

    • GregJ 16.3

      A quick calculation (oh how I love the Elections NZ Virtual Seat calculater!) and assuming Electorate seats stay the same (a stretch I know) the results would translate into a 122 seat House:

      Nats – 55
      Labour – 44
      Greens – 17
      MP – 3
      Mana – 1
      ACT – 1
      UF – 1

      However if Nats were to stitch a deal with the Conservatives over an Electorate seat a National/MP/Conservative/ACT/UF coalition could grab 62 seats. Actually they could take back Epsom from ACT and still do it as long as they reach an accomodation with the Conservatives.

      Fascinating!

      Still work to be done on the left to secure the field though – there could still be much fancy footwork around NZ First and the Conservatives which could distort it unless some big chunks are taken out of the National vote that go to the Left.

      • bad12 16.3.1

        My view is that the Maori Party are going to be left with 1 seat in 2014, i am now going to have to start practicing saying bye bye Slippery without going into mad bursts of laughter…

        • GregJ 16.3.1.1

          Actually to be honest I wonder whether they will end up with any representation – their political capital seems pretty much spent – unless there is a rapprochement with Mana of course (which might actually be the logical thing for the MP to do).

          • bad12 16.3.1.1.1

            Ah man sailing on His ego trip, which is what politics consists of for many, i cannot see the Maori Party and Mana joining forces, can’t see it but they definitely should,(after Turia and Sharples have gone that is),

            After what was said on the Marae at firstly Ratana Pa and secondly at Waitangi you are not far off on where the Maori Party now sit in relation to what was it’s support base,

            The bulk of the ‘Whanau ora’ fund that just so happened to have been spent in the electorate of Tariana Turia might ensure a reasonable turnout of the vote for the Maori Party in that electorate if they stand someone like Rahui Katene as the candidate, Ken Mair’s chances should He stand i think are about zero,

            I am picking that the Labour candidate while not winning Te Ureroa Flavell’s Waiariki seat will split the vote sufficiently so as to allow Mana’s Annette Sykes to win,

            The reverse i believe will occur in Sharple’s seat where the Mana candidate will pick up enough votes for Labour’s Shane Jones to prevail…

            • GregJ 16.3.1.1.1.1

              Yes – the politics of the personal should not be underestimated – I always felt that it meant the MP and Labour missed an opportunity because of personal antipathies – the events and principles that lead to the formation of the MP were legitimate and after an understandable cooling down period (the emotions were running high) the 2 parties really should have looked at how to work together – in the end the MP got some IMO minimal gains from National at the expsense of selling their soul.

    • felixviper 16.4

      Bloody good news!

    • Colonial Weka 16.5

      NZF are looking good.

  16. RedBaronCV 17

    Okay this is dumb question of the week.
    How does Roy Morgan poll treat the non voter. The “won’t say” is 3.5% but the poll assumes they will vote? That is tiny compared to the total electorate non vote. Does Roy Morgan simply assume that all the hang up’s, non answers and “go away it’s teatime” are the non voters?

    • Te Reo Putake 17.1

      Not a dumb question at all. There may be some breakdown of the process on the Roy Morgan site and I do know that most polling companies press for an answer even if the respondent says they haven’t made up their mind. Email Roy, I’m sure he’ll tell you how it works if you ask nice.

    • felixviper 17.2

      As I understand it, most polls completely ignore the hang-ups, non-answers, and go-away-it’s-teatimes in the results.

      The reported percentages are of those who answer the poll, not those who were called. So if 1000 calls are made and 100 responses received and 44 of those support National, National is reported as 44%, not 4.4% (which, while technically correct, would also be slightly absurd.)

  17. RedBaronCV 18

    Does this mean that an ever increasing “I’m not going to vote”, [some days I feel like joining them] simply goes unrecorded? It means that increasing disillusionment isn’t recorded?

    So eventually we may get down to say 10 voters and 4.4 of them say NACT – well 4 say NACT and .4 of Peter Dunne as he spreads his personal vote around?

    Would Roy Morgan answer?

  18. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 19

    Our edumacation. A serious comment from a US teacher about the ‘No Child Left Behind” rote learning system that the US adopted around 2002 and its results there.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/02/09/a-warning-to-college-profs-from-a-high-school-teacher/

    (The Washington Post has a number of entries under the subject line I used – the washington post no child left behind. )
    and
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/study-graduation-rate-accountability-weakened-under-no-child-left-behind-waive
    and – Business leaders urge Congress to rewrite No Child Left Behind (Why?)
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/01/31/business-leaders-urge-congress-to-rewrite-no-child-left-behind/

    We have done much the same as the USA when we adopted National Standards. We have put aside intellectual rigour applied in understanding our education problem and chosen a response pathetically lacking in self-determination and heavily skewed towards genuflecting to the big guy, the USA, and so finding an excuse for visiting there and having Important Discussions about Weighty Matters with people who are richer than we are (and therefore on the scale of simple commercial value we judge by, must be better than us.)

  19. Pascal's bookie 20

    Something to go to in wellington:

    http://t.co/yEsfFxL4

    suspect all the cool kids are going to be there

  20. NoseViper (The Nose knows) 22

    I didn’t make a submission on the Family Court even though I think it is important. I was too busy doing other things like having a go at Prosser the Tosser. I had the idea that it closed Friday but didn’t check.

    When I went to the site I saw the date but no closing time. This is important as the Electoral Commission submissions closed at 5pm. It is strange to adopt post office hours when on-line submissions are given. I would have thought that 12 am would be the deadline.

    Then if you follow the information to help with submissions you have to download a booklet from a PDF. How clunky and convoluted – a barrier in fact.

    I guess its too late to make a submission though it doesn’t state closing time. And I don’t feel like reading a textbook on submission making. Isn’t there a Plain English movement that would also apply to making this sort of instruction clear and short?

    • Johninsg 22.1

      Go ahead and make ‘a’ submission anyway if you wish. And copy the submission to relevant parliamentary spokespeople as well as the individual members of the appropriate select committee.

      Is that a submission to a parliamentary select committee?

      If so, for the information of readers here, generally -

      Next time, just before the deadline, or as soon as the announcement comes out, put in a quick one- or two-line submission stating that you are putting in a submission, that you wish to be heard (you can decide later and write in that you don’t wish to be heard) and that the rest of your comments will be submitted asap.

      That way, even if you miss the deadline by a few minutes or a day, you are still ‘in’.

      And given that you have stated you wish to be heard, you will be contacted at some stage later. (You can indicate otherwise later if you change your mind.)

      Have fun.

  21. xtasy 23

    Recommended reading for Paula Bennett, the Principal Health Advisor David Bratt, senior employee at MSD and for Work and Income, and even for opposition welfare and health spokespersons:

    http://www.kingsfund.org.uk/sites/files/kf/field/field_document/quality-gp-diagnosis-referral-gq-inquiry-research-paper-mar11.pdf

    I am sure this may well apply to NZ as well.

    So when getting GPs to make “assessments”, to diagnose and to refer clients to specialists, always bear in mind, there may well be a “mine field” in regards to actions not being the right ones to take, in many cases, or in at least some cases.

    While having relied so heavily on even MSD “trained” general practitioners, to make decisions on health, disability and work incapacity, MSD and WINZ seem to have taken risks and possibly relied on “flawed” recommendations in quite high numbers.

    Even on the so-called Medical Appeal Boards (appointed by the “Chief Executive” of MSD) do usually have about 2 GPs (being “designated doctors” trained or at least “selected” by MSD) sit on them, so they tend to have a two thirds majority.

    A recent workshop held by MSD on 31 Jan. 2013 does though appear to be used now, by MSD, to select comments from disability participants, saying they do NOT want to be assessed about work capacity by their GPs. Now while that may seem reasonable and sensible for some, though, that is exactly what MSD want, as they are going to take over that job under the new welfare reforms themselves! I fear that some of these advocates and disabled spokespersons are not quite aware what they are asking for. Doctors – mostly GPs – may not be right all the time, but are WINZ health and disability advisors the ones you want to rely on?

    There is a lot of shit happening, like the recent “survey” MSD conducted on suggestions by various affected groups, what may assist people with ill health or disabilities back into work. I fear this is all being abused and used as an “instrument” to pick the suggestions that suit them, to justify the introduction of UK style assessments, and to force sick and disabled into work, before they may even be asked themselves.

    Now much more scrutiny must be put on all this. I appeal to all opposition spokespersons on welfare and health to pay serious attention to these matters and issues.

    I am sure nobody wants to have the UK scenario, with many dying trying to do work they are not able to do, or committing suicide, seeing no hope, and being unable to be taken serious as sick and disabled.

    Surely, a trusted doctor and GP will need to be listened to, same as proper specialists for the conditions people suffer, but a balanced and objective and fair, fact based approach is needed, before determining sick and disabled can do some work.

    One intersting relevant article is this by the way:

    http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/news/2013/january-2013/31/doubts-about-gps-assessing-work-fitness.aspx

    If the link does not work, google “Doubts about GPs assessing work fitness” along NZ Doctor and 31 Jan. 2013.

  22. GregJ 24

    And the good news continues to roll in for National…Contact to cut 100 jobs

    …this despite an expected increase by 8% in half-year operating profits.

    Apparently savings have to be made and late last year, CEO Barnes signalled returns to shareholders were likely to be “ramped up” once the company’s big investment programme ended in the current financial year…so the translation would be “shareholders need more profits so let’s cut some more jobs”. Obviously rorting the consumers just isn’t cutting it.

    • Colonial Viper 24.1

      Capitalism and it’s mission to seek increased return on capital at any social cost, at it’s finest.

    • infused 24.2

      To be fair, contact are shit. Highest prices by far. Useless helpdesk. I did a merry go round, Genesis->Contact->Meridian->Power Shop

      Contact by far the worst, the Meridian. Should have never changed from Genesis actually. Powershop is great.

      Also, didn’t contact shed like 30k customers?

      • Colonial Viper 24.2.1

        Time to re-nationalise. The private sector can’t deliver. Well, except to foreign shareholders.

  23. Te Reo Putake 25

    Message to PG: re: your question on YawnNZ about missing the login. You can see the comment box yourself. Like most posters (I guess) my eyes glaze over the ‘Name (required)’ and ‘Mail’ bits above it because they come up automatically. I go straight to the comment box and start typing the sparkling bon mots you’ve grown to love so well.

    Anyway, nice to see this crushingly dull event has quadrupled your usual average daily comments. Up to four now, I see! Is this a record?

    Pip pip!

    • QoT 25.1

      Don’t get carried away, TRP, two of the comments *are* just Pete himself demonstrating no practical knowledge of how web forms work.

  24. xtasy 27

    The responses to Farrar’s post on KB got me totally shocked and frozen to be honest. Even Farrar seems to be shocked by at least some comments on his post. Wow, this is showing how many sickoes there are in NZ society.

    I have been against too liberal migration for various reasons, also am aware (as I know about it) of some abuse of migration, but hey, this is FUCKING SICK!

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/02/nz_first_mps.html#comments

    • BLiP 27.1

      .

      Heh!! I recognise a couple of lols tr0lls in there winding it all up and giving room for the bigots to show their colours. But, seriously, you’re surprised by that? C’mon, Farrar’s Sewer reflects the general conversation you will find at pretty much any gathering of employed, sporting, wanna-be middle-class Kiwi baldheads.

      If its not the Muslims its the Greenies or women or bloody maaaari – they gotta have something to hate – its as much a social lubricant as their green bottle beer. A lot of the banter is just piss and wind designed to irritate the overly sensitive but, as you can see, what passes for discourse is driven by deliberate and beligerent ignorance.

      God forbid that they should actually read a scholarly book or watch a 90-minute documentary about what they think they know all about. Even worse would be admitting to having done such a thing. Nah, much easier to get their religious instruction from Fox News and then reinforce the messages amongst themselves. Its a good way for them to judge if you’re wiv ‘em or agin ‘em.

      Unfortunately, as more and more of our best and most able head overseas, this cohort of “sickoes” is growing by the day and forms a significant political bloc. They are the sort of people who turn their stove and oven on during Earth Hour and vote National Ltd™ only to keep Labour out. Study them well.

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