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Open mike 16/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 16th, 2013 - 170 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

170 comments on “Open mike 16/06/2013”

  1. Morrissey 1

    “I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!”
    Sue Moroney’s dismal, delusional anti-fluoridation rave

    Backbenchers, Prime TV, Wednesday 12 June 2013, 10:30 p.m.
    Hosts: Wallace Chapman, Damian Christie
    Politicians: Sue Moroney (Labour), Simon O’Connor (National), Richard Prosser (New Zealand First)

    If you can bear the unedifying spectacle of “wretchedness o’ercharg’d”, then please watch as Labour List lightweight Sue Moroney, in an incredible display of sheer purblind obstinacy, incites the crowd to outraged jeering, and drives the normally unflappable Wallace Chapman to completely lose his rag.

    First topic for tonight is the Edward Snowden story…

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him?
    SUE MORONEY: [face frozen in rictus grin] Ahhhhhhhhhhh. [extended pause] No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: [shrugs shoulders, raises eyebrows in disbelief] Okay then. Do you feel sorry for Peter Dunne?
    SUE MORONEY: Ohhhhh, look, he’s a minister. There are expectations we have of a minister, and he failed.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you?
    SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!

    For a moment, a stunned and ominous silence fills the Backbenchers Tavern; then the slight titter of derisive laughter, and also a slight percussive sound: the Labour Party supporters gnashing their teeth in mortification. Wallace Chapman licks his lips, shakes his head in disbelief, then he decides to see if he can get someone to talk sense….

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: All right, I’ll ask all three of our politicians: Edward Snowden, hero or villain?
    RICHARD PROSSER: Ooooh…depends where you stand. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay. Short and sweet. Sue Moroney?
    SUE MORONEY: [significant pause] I’d like a lot more information. But I guess he’s a hero.
    SIMON O’CONNOR: He’s a young man who made a rash decision. He hasn’t thought it through.

    Next topic is FLUORIDATION. Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program. It surely makes sense, therefore, that a parliamentary backbencher from Hamilton should be on Backbenchers tonight. Surely. Unfortunately, as we have already seen by her confused and contradictory statements about the Edward Snowden case, this particular backbencher makes little or no sense at all….

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: What do you think of that decision, Sue Moroney?
    SUE MORONEY: [significant pause] I stand with Labour. We need a proper government inqu—-
    SIMON O’CONNOR: No, no, no, no, no! That’s not good enough, Sue! I ask you to give me an answer and you say nothing that makes sense. This is a bit of a shocker, Sue!
    SUE MORONEY: Research and evidence! I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!
    SIMON O’CONNOR: The evidence is beyond doubt. There are SCORES of peer-reviewed studies in academic journals.
    WALLACE CHAPMAN: Richard Prosser, what do you think about fluoride in the water supply?
    RICHARD PROSSER: I have to say I would be personally against it.
    SIMON O’CONNOR: [drily, to Prosser] I’ll send you the articles in Nature and by the government’s Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman tomorrow.

    Chapman has obviously prepared seriously for this, to the extent of bringing on Doctor JONATHAN BROADBENT, an expert in dental epidemiology from Otago University. Dr Broadbent explains that there is no rational debate about it, and that there has already been a major inquiry on the matter: the major New Zealand study on the effects of fluoridation was completed in 1971. He speaks for a considerable time, and then it’s time to confront the List MP from Hamilton with a cold dose of reality….

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: He makes sense, Sue Moroney, you don’t.
    SUE MORONEY: Well if you base your decision on forty-year-old science—-

    At this point, there is sustained jeering from the audience. Cries of “Shame!” and “Ignorant!” can be heard.

    WALLACE CHAPMAN: We know where you stand. You stand with Richard Prosser.
    SUE MORONEY: [nonplussed expression on face] Ummmm….We need an inquiry!

    More angry, contemptuous hooting and jeering.

    SIMON O’CONNOR: Here we are again, Labour asking for another inquiry.
    SUE MORONEY: [rictus grin now replaced by angry scowl] Well, FORTY-YEAR-OLD SCIENCE! Do you want to put your faith in forty-year-old science?

    Hooting and jeering and derisive laughter continues….

    The rest of the show consists of poor, awkward Damian Christie circulating round groups of drinkers, poking a microphone into their midst and trying to get them to answer his extraordinarily inane questions. As usual, this is an excruciatingly painful watch.

    • Jenny 1.1

      Earlier, in the interview in which he revealed his identity to the world, Snowden explained that he had sought refuge in Hong Kong because it “has a strong tradition of free speech” and “a long tradition of protesting in the streets”.

      Local activists plan to take to the streets on Saturday in support of Snowden. Groups including the Civil Human Rights Front and international human rights groups will march from Chater Gardens in Central to the US consulate on Garden Road, starting at 3pm.

      The march is being organised by In-media, a website supporting freelance journalists.

      “We call on Hong Kong to respect international legal standards and procedures relating to the protection of Snowden; we condemn the US government for violating our rights and privacy; and we call on the US not to prosecute Snowden,” the group said in a statement.

      Good on Snowden. And what a compliment he has paid to the people of Hong Kong. I am jealous.
      On the other hand in an unedifying mirror image of Sue Maroney’s sick comments, a Beijing Communist Party toady calls for Snowden’s deportation:

      While many Hong Kong lawmakers, legal experts, activists and members of the public have called on the city’s courts to protect Snowden’s rights, others such as Beijing loyalist lawmaker and former security chief Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee said he should leave.

      Yay! Team Edward

      Boo! Toady politicians

      WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him?

      SUE MORONEY: No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters.

      Maroney. You suck. You are a disgrace to your party.

      Fortunately for us. As in New Zealand, in Hong Kong, mainstream politicians are not the only ones who get to have a say. (Marking Hong Kong out as a democratic stand out. And also as a good choice by Snowden as a safe haven.)

      Any politician that makes a statement in direct opposition to Edward Snowden’s brave act of conscience, as Maroney has done, does not belong in any political party that claims it stands for democracy.

      But not according to “Ask me something that matters” Maroney.

      Is Maroney parroting the Labour Party line, here?

      Is Maroney speaking for the Labour Party, or for herself?

      Why is David Shearer so silent on the spying scandals that have rocked New Zealand and the world?

      Can Shearer be trusted to take over John Key’s role as minister for the SIS and GCSB?

      When it comes to spying on us: Will an incoming Labour administration under the Shearer gang be a seamless continuation of Business As Usual?

      Will a Labour administration repeal the Act that has legalised criminal behavior by the GCSB?

      Will law breaking by the SIS the GCSB and the police, continue to be covered up and excused, under a Labour administration as they have been under a National one?

      Who are the 88?

      Are they really a danger to us?

      Will David Shearer as head of the SIS honour OIA requests and release the names of the 88 New Zealanders illegally spied on? So that we, and they, can decide if the illegal intrusion on their privacy was justified?

      Will New Zealand be a safe haven for prisoners of conscience under a Labour administration, no matter which country they hale from?

      Maybe some Labour Party insiders might like to enlighten us?

      • Populuxe1 1.1.1

        That would be Hong Kong, territory of that bastion of free speech and democracy, the People’s Republic of China? Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to. Mind you, given he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does, I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

          however, Google does not have powers to incarcerate you in Guantanamo Bay without trial, for no stated reason. That seems to be an important difference.

        • Morrissey 1.1.1.2

          Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to.

          Sycophants and ideologically trustworthy servants of state power are not the ones who ever have to worry about having to flee state vengeance. You are safe, my friend.

          …he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does

          In view of your extensive form, it’s difficult to call this one, but I think that statement could be just about the stupidest thing you have ever written on this mostly excellent forum.

          I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.

          Yes, the treatment of Julian Assange and Bradley Manning must have given comfort to all those who value liberty, human rights and justice. Oh yes.

      • johnm 1.1.2

        100% right Jenny.Under Key NZ is little more than a vassal state of the U$. Why? Since Rogernomics we’ve bought into the Washington Consensus which is neoliberalism and privatisation and a horror of anything which is Socialist, even a simple mixed economy. Defence wise we’re locked in with Australia, the U$’s sheriff in the southern pacific, our subservience to the U$ is shown by having soldiers in Afghanistan. The greatest figure of South American politics the anti neoliberal Hugo Chavez, Key did not attend his funeral though he visited ex Pinochet Chile. To give asylum to Snowden would be a direct slap in the face to the U$ military hegemony, and our defence agreements with them, no politician in Labour or National would do that.
        Without U$ military might in the Pacific there would be a huge power vacuum almost certainly filled by China. The Japanese would almost certainly have to develop nuclear weapons against North Korea and China as a deterrent.
        That said we should still give Snowden asylum showing we’re not total toady bastards to U$ military and security dominance

        • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.1

          I don’t think you need worry. The US is greatly expanding its presence in the Pacific and nothing we do will change that. Having said that we also want to keep both China and the US on side, while ensuring we do what is best for NZ.

          That’s statecraft.

          • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.1.1

            Having said that we also want to keep both China and the US on side, while ensuring we do what is best for NZ.

            And the best way to do that is to declare our total neutrality – and then build up enough force to prevent an invasion.

            • Colonial Viper 1.1.2.1.1.1

              There are many styles and kinds of invasion.

              • Draco T Bastard

                True. The ones we’re experiencing ATM are financial but I was speaking of direct invasion. To stop the financial invasion we’d also have to declare neutrality and then drop the Washington Consensus.

      • johnm 1.1.3

        “Snowden Supporters Rally in Hong Kong
        ‘Arrest Obama, free Snowden’ protesters chant ”

        http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/06/15-1

        No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

        Article 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights

        How about our own government spying on New Zealanders?

    • bad12 1.2

      Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’, i should imagine even tho it doesn’t seem a topic to fire the imagination that there would have been ‘opposition’ to the mass uptake of fluoridation in the 70’s,

      i have no strong view either way but would suggest that in the ‘stuffed shirt’ days of the 70’s the prevailing view of ‘science’ would have and has lead to a really nice little earner for chemical companies over many generations,

      i havn’t heard of farming communities suffering any worse dental outcomes than ‘towny’ communities do they stuff their water tanks with fluoride…

      • Descendant Of Sssmith 1.2.1

        Shit if 40 year old science is a problem what about those idiots that decided the earth was round, or that gravity caused things to fall.

        That science is really old!

        • Anne 1.2.1.1

          Point well made D Of Sssmith

          • Colonial Viper 1.2.1.1.1

            DoS does ignore one factor. While the fact that the Earth is round hasn’t changed in 40 years, our understanding of medicine, biochemistry, physiology and human health has radically changed.

            The harms caused by something like smoking or by pestcides like 245T for example…we know things now about detailed mechanisms that they barely suspected back then.

            EDIT I see Bad12 beat me to it…

            • Descendant Of Sssmith 1.2.1.1.1.1

              I wasn’t really ignoring it I as simply saying that the age of the science was irrelevant as to whether we trusted it.

              New scientific discoveries may or may not change what we know.

              We shouldn’t discount any science on the basis of age. That isn’t how science works.

              You’re reading too much into what I intended.

        • Jenny 1.2.1.2

          Shit if 40 year old science is a problem what about those idiots that decided the earth was round, or that gravity caused things to fall.

          Descendant Of Sssmith

          Or indeed, the hundred year old science of heavier than air flight.

          What nonsensical rationalisations these are. And from an Labour MP who by refusing to support safe haven for Edward Snowden, is supporting the crude and cruel hounding of this brave individual who courageously and at great personal cost has exposed to the public view, a level of intrusive state surveilence into US and other countries citizens engaged in by the US government that would make the East German Stasi blush.

          WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you?

          SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!

          What Chapman could have asked her was; Do you have any brains? To which this tory could have given the same answer.

          With these sort of statements Sue Maroney shows she properly belongs in the National Party caucus, or the even more whacky ACT caucus. (If there ever was such a thing again).

          This is the sort of smug dismissal I would normally expect to come from John Key. And not a Labour Party MP. How on earth did Sue Maroney get on the Labour list?

          • Te Reo Putake 1.2.1.2.1

            Jenny, your complaint about Moroney is based on what Moz claims she said. You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.

            Moroney, and Labour, want an independent enquiry to see whether fluoride is needed or not. That seems sensible given that the opposition to it seems to be reduced to ‘but, nazis!’

            • Morrissey 1.2.1.2.1.1

              You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.

              You have already been exposed several times for your pettifogging and quibbling, but I see you are back at it. Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim as it would be if I had laboriously transcribed from a tape recording. But I got the key parts of that horrifyingly substandard performance absolutely right, and you know it.

              I did not make up any of it—even in my most extravagantly satirical mood, I could not imagine anything as stupid and irresponsible as Sue Moroney came out with on Wednesday night.

              • Te Reo Putake

                “Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim …”

                Thank you for confirming my point. Again.

          • johnm 1.2.1.2.2

            “Thousands Of Companies Have Been Handing Over Your Personal Data To The NSA”
            http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/thousands-of-companies-have-been-handing-over-your-personal-data-to-the-nsa

            Good on Snowden!

        • bad12 1.2.1.3

          Point not so well made is my view, you are comparing the ‘science of nature’ with the ‘chemical science of man’,

          The two are as different as chalk and cheese, the Earth is spherical because it is!!! that’s hardly based upon science and it was hardly science that someone at some point gained the means to sail out past the horizon and discover that it ain’t flat,

          Ugly Truth in comment 2 links to some large scientific studies that debunk the fluoride myth…

          • McFlock 1.2.1.3.1

            On the contrary, what changes in population health & chemical science is the degree of accuracy, not the facts.

            Hence the research about going for 0.7ppm rather than 0.75, as opposed to the range 40 years ag which was say 0.6-1.2ppm.

            But the clear benefits of fluoridation were evident 60 years ago, no matter what UT thinks. His link in comment two was incorrect at point one and went downhill from there.

            For example: “According to the NIDR’s statisticians, the study found an average difference of only 0.6 DMFS (Decayed Missing and Filled Surfaces) in the permanent teeth of children aged 5-17 residing in either fluoridated or unfluoridated areas (Brunelle and Carlos, 1990). This difference is less than one tooth surface! There are 128 tooth surfaces in a child’s mouth.“. Let’s say 200,000 children: that’s 120,000 teeth that require additional treatment such as fillings, capping or extraction before the age of 17 (not to mention the next 60 years).

      • Saarbo 1.2.2

        Farming families are generally issued fluoride tabs, we were. Also did not have much access to soft drink and lollies :-), made up for it when we left home.

      • Morrissey 1.2.3

        Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’…

        Nonsense. Moroney had no point to make, because she has never read anything about it, nor thought about it.

        Whatever LEC in Hell selected her should should have all of its members struck off immediately.

        • bad12 1.2.3.1

          Nor had i until i got onto the link in comment 2, which shows that there is a fairly large amount of study by reputable scientists which paint the depositing of fluoride into the water system in a not very favorable light,

          i may be wrong but i see Sue Moroney as part of the well meaning middle class who may not have too many clues but are (slightly) left leaning,

          The Labour Party is chocka with such people it’s why they can come up with such a grand idea as shoe-horning the children of the middle class onto the ‘property ownership ladder’ whilst remaining eerily SILENT on the economic fate of the Mene Mene’s of this world…

    • Rogue Trooper 1.3

      As a Labour man, some of these Labour MPs do make me cringe; guess that is why Nash declined a certain cup of tea. (high-lobe Cam).

      • Tim 1.3.1

        I agree RT – I frequently find myself asking (myself): Who the fuck ARE these people?, and how the hell did this happen?
        I know the answer, but I also wonder WHY we keep empowering them.
        The Labour Party’s worst enemy (enema even) has always been apathy. But the buggers just KEEP subscribing to the doctor’s prescription – even when it’s giving them the runs.
        Who the hell is advising them (I’ll send the boys around – half of them a mates of Mallard anyway)?

        • Tim 1.3.1.1

          An hour or so on, and after a sesh with the proctologist, I’m more the wiser and in no need now of a dainty little dinner party anyway.
          The difference between National and Labour is that Nat members strut around asking anyone that will listen “Don’t you know who I am?”, whilst members of Labour ask themselves and anyone that will listen – “who the fuck are “WE”?’

    • Tim 1.4

      Well I’ve just struck her off my dinner party list! Or maybe not. I’ll discuss my proctologist with her, instead of my psychiatrist – I’m sure she’ll be able to give me some deep and meaningful advice. She’ll probably advise I need a second (perhaps even 3rd) opinion.

  2. “Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program”

    Don’t beat around the bush, Morrisey. Tell us what you really think.

    50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
    Dr. Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University

    http://www.slweb.org/50reasons.html

    • tc 2.1

      Makes a change from hamilton council doing the bullying.

    • Pasupial 2.2

      @ Ugly

      Having you oppose fluoridation seems one of the best reasons to support it (I guess those strip-club girls don’t care too much about the state of your teeth if you’re bulging at the wallet area).

      However, I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply. I doubt there would be that many (a similar, or lesser, proportion than those who signed Hamilton’s failed referendum against it). Plus it could be used as an emergency back-up for the scientifically literate if there was a disruption to the normal water works.

      • bad12 2.2.1

        Read the link at (2), there’s plenty of science that does not support fluoridation…

        • ak 2.2.1.1

          Crap. A handful of obsessive rebels without a cause and chickenship councilors in election year have condemned thousands of high-deprivation children to the misery of excrutiatingly bad oral health and the downstream effects that will last all their lives. And if those same heroes get crook tomorrow, they’ll accept – in fact demand – without the tiniest murmur, every other advance of modern medical science. Selfish, hypocritical, cretins.

          • Lanthanide 2.2.1.1.1

            +1

          • Rogue Trooper 2.2.1.1.2

            regular brushing, morning and night, plenty of ‘sterilization’ over the years, and fluoridated water; only one extraction at 45. (though a few ‘knocked about'; wrong place, wrong time).
            😎

          • bad12 2.2.1.1.3

            LOLZ, obviously didn’t bother to read the ‘science’ contained in comment 2, suppose the ‘scientists’ involved in such studies,(some of them of multi-year duration) are all selfish, hypocritical cretins as well,

            It would seem that the consensus of opposition to fluoride in water is that fluoride when applied orally via a toothpaste has some positive effect while adding such to drinking water is dubious at best and if a high enough dose of the stuff is continually added to drinking water there are negative effects becoming apparent…

            • Colonial Viper 2.2.1.1.3.1

              bad12 if you remember that this debate is now not one of science and rational discourse, it is one of belief systems and world views, it will make more sense. Part of a civic religion in other words.

              That’s why you are seeing the emotional polemics, condemning our children to hell, I mean, in the form of a lifetime of decaying rotten teeth. You are messing with the transmitted orthodoxy.

              • bad12

                It appears that one’s worship of Uncle Sam is a must in the fluoride ‘debate’, it appears that ALL of non-English speaking Europe has now ceased to apply fluoride to water supplies,

                This is obviously a plot by non-English speaking dentists from all over Europe who can see mountains of money to be made from all them kids with bad teeth…

                • McFlock

                  Not Quite.

                  And then there’s the issue of salt or milk fluoridation as alternative avenues.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Good ideas those, allowing people to choose to use fluoridated salt or milk.

                    • McFlock

                      Possibly not as effective for poor people or maybe those who aren’t intimately aware of their micro-nutrient needs, though. Look at the price of higher-calcium milk, for example.

          • Ugly Truth 2.2.1.1.4

            @ak

            “Crap”

            No, it is actual scientific fact. Here’s the first one from the list:

            Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride.

            • McFlock 2.2.1.1.4.1

              But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.

              • weka

                “But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.”

                I’d agree with the second* but would like to see a citation for the first. Modern fluoridation of water happens in places where humans generally eat diets that harm oral health. Are you suggesting that humans that don’t eat like that are better off with fluoridated water too? I haven’t looked to see what the research is saying on this but am curious if you have.

                * to an extent. We know that some people don’t keep their teeth for life, or have poor oral health, even when they drink fluoridated water all that time.

                • McFlock

                  Nope.

                  All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Large numbers of advanced western countries have decided that fluoridation doesn’t justify mandatory use, and several have even withdrawn it from their populations after having had it for many years.

                    I’m not aware of any evidence which shows that children’s teeth in those countries are significantly worse off after the withdrawal of water fluoridation.

                    • McFlock

                      Do a lit search on Ovid over the weekend, did you?

                      Sorry, but “Colonial Viper isn’t aware of it” isn’t much in the way of “evidence”.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      How about “McFlock isn’t aware of any such evidence either”

                      Better? :)

                    • McFlock

                      True, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

                      Whereas evidence of benefit is actual evidence.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.

                    • McFlock

                      …that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.

                      Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      yeah pretty sure it is

                      but as the Israeli Minister of Health says…why are you fluoridating all this water when only 2% of it will be drunk

                    • McFlock

                      because 2% of it will be drunk.

                    • weka


                      There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.

                      McFlock …
                      16 June 2013 at 10:30 pm
                      …that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.

                      Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.

                      McFlock, what key words would you use for a search? I did a quick google and found the following, but not much otherwise.

                      The best available evidence from studies following withdrawal of water fluoridation indicates that caries prevalence increases, approaching the level of the low fluoride group. Again, however, the studies were of moderate quality (level B), and limited quantity. The estimates of effect could be biased due to poor adjustment for the effects of potential confounding factors.

                      http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fluoride/documents/crdreport18.pdf

                      (sept 2000)

                    • Colonial Viper

                      because 2% of it will be drunk.

                      LOL

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Note: it appears from a quick read that fluoride also changes the behaviour of bone cells through various poorly understood signalling mechanisms. I wonder what other cell signalling mechanisms it affects.

                    • McFlock

                      @Weka – not really my field, but Scandinavia has a pretty good history of epi research so I’d be surprised if they didn’t do something. Beyond the obvious (“fluoride”, etc) I’m not sure where to start.

                      I find that keyword searches can still overload one with results that are frequently only tangentially related to the actual area of interest – try title word searches as well if keywords bring up nothing useful.

                    • McFlock

                      @CV

                      OMG, you’ve discovered that a chemical might have detectable effects! At what doses? Links?

                  • weka

                    “All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.”

                    Fair enough. Let me rephrase your earlier comment then,

                    from –

                    But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.

                    to –

                    But humans are more likely to have shit teeth if their oral health is destroyed in other ways and they don’t have fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.

                    Myself, I would also add –

                    And addressing the reasons why good oral health is not promoted in NZ
                    at a preventative level is something we should be doing, including looking at meta issues of poverty, education, and whether mass medication is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff

                    • McFlock

                      “Mass medication” like iodised salt in bread and fluoride in water is prevention, not an ambulance. Even in the most equitable and civilised society, I would expect some initiatives along those lines. Because on the flipside of “personal choice” is “information overload” and “some people will have no freaking idea either way”.

                      Although I agree with the rest of your addendum.

                    • weka

                      A society that says we won’t ban soft drinks etc in schools or lollies at supermarket check outs, cannot then claim that regulating water fluoridation is prevention. It’s medication instead of prevention. True prevention is making sure that everyone can afford to eat well and has access to healthy foods, and is making sure that knowing how to eat well has the same value as reading and writing. Prevention also doesn’t see tooth decay as separate from diabetes or heart disease.

                      We are so far away from a prevention model we don’t even recognise what prevention is.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      We are so far away from a prevention model we don’t even recognise what prevention is.

                      Well said.

                      It’s still too often fighting fire with fire.

                    • McFlock

                      @ Weka,

                      behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.

                      Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.

                    • weka

                      “behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.”

                      It’s not the logic behind my thinking. What I think is that if we promoted and practiced true prevention, then the rates of tooth decay would be much lower, and the fluoridation debate would look very different.

                      “Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.”

                      Sure. So we can educate (and legislate) about smoking and lots of people will quit, but some won’t. Of course we can’t really know what is going on there until we deal with poverty and the stresses of modern life too (both powerful influences on health).

                      But let’s say in some mythical world, we did actual health promotion in a meaningful way, poverty was drastically reduced, and people had genuine choices around how to live their lives. Some people still choose to eat lots of sugar and most of them get holes in their teeth. What percentage of the population would that need to be to warrant fluoridation of the water supply?

                      I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).

                      I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).

                    • McFlock

                      I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).

                      I would say that inclusion of a substance in the water supply (or staples like milk or bread) is the best course of action if it has a demonstrable benefit for some, does not cause demonstrable harm to others at the supplied levels, does not affect the appearance and quality of the product, and is more effective/efficient at reaching people in need than other intervention strategies.

                      So no, if a substance that didn’t adversely affect people was included in the water supply to help other people keep their feet, I would not be opposed to it.

                      Frankly I don’t get the big deal – being around a car or logburner is much more hazardous than fluoridated water.

                      I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).

                      Yes, it’s a balancing of rights to a certain degree (although, as you show, those worked up enough about flouridation would also have other issues with the municipal water supply). Excuse me for getting terse, but in the cases of folate in bread and water fluoridation, it’s the right to pretend to be able to control micronutrient intake (have you tested your bore for fluoride or other non-H2O substances? Down to less than one part per million?) against the right of other people to live healthier lives.

            • Anne 2.2.1.1.4.2

              Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.

              • Colonial Viper

                Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.

                It looks to me like less than 5% of people have access to naturally occurring fluoride in water.

                In the UK for instance wikipedia says 0.5M people receive naturally fluoridated water.

          • muzza 2.2.1.1.5

            Handful of rebels…

            Oops, its the emotionally charged, we know which science is the righteous science, brigade, out in full force!

            Think about the children, they cry, while dismissing the opportunity to discuss potential harm caused by the mass medicating!

            Brilliant attitude!

      • Ugly Truth 2.2.2

        Can’t cope with the facts, eh Pasupial? Have some more.

        • Pasupial 2.2.2.1

          @ Ugly
          The facts I can cope with fine. It’s pusillanimous hysteria and delusion that I have a problem with…

          @Bad12
          That’s not science – that’s a manipulative list from someone that regards pseudosciences such as; naturopathy, and chiropracty, as valid. I have no time for Paul Conman – link to someone with scientific credibility please. Here’s a link for you in the meantime:
          http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/02/anti-fluoridation-crankery-how-1960s/

          • Ugly Truth 2.2.2.1.1

            Let me know when you can comprehend the the difference, Pasupial.

            Fluoride is a poison. It is a roughly as toxic as lead or arsenic, and it accumulates in the body. Fluorosis causes bone hardening, which makes osteoporosis more hazardous, and fluorine can cause loss of IQ and docility.

            Fluoride was find used by the Nazis to keep prisoners docile and manageable, Later it was introduced into US water supplies under the watch of Andrew Mellon, a Nazi supporter and eugenicist.

            • Te Reo Putake 2.2.2.1.1.1

              So what? Fluoride in water is not at poisonous levels and your repeated Godwins make no difference to the argument.

              • bad12

                His point is that the amounts of fluoride added to the water supply while not toxic in themselves have the ability to build up in the body bonding with other metallic elements as the body has not the means to expel an over-supply of fluorides…

                • McFlock

                  I’d like a link about fluoride compounds accumulating in the body tissues or joints manner of heavy metals, rather than simply being consumed at higher levels than they can be excreted.

                  It’s a claim UT has made repeatedly without providing any evidence, and I suspect has similar provenance to their Jacques Cousteau “quote”, which turned out to be bunk.

              • Godwin’s law no longer applies.

            • Lanthanide 2.2.2.1.1.2

              Hey UT, I’m sure you’re also against dihydrogen monoxide?

              Here are some facts about it:
              * Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
              * Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
              * Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
              * DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
              * Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
              * Contributes to soil erosion.
              * Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.

              There are many more problems with it, too, but that’s just a short list to give you a taste.

              Would you be surprised to learn that DHMO is found in all public drinking water, at concentrations that can lead to all of the above problems? The Nazis also made extensive use of DHMO in their concentration camps. Surely we should ban it too?

              • Te Reo Putake

                Excessive amounts of DHMO have stopped me mowing the lawns this morning. Totally buggered my golf plans for this arvo too. Ban it now!

              • Dv

                Also produced devastating explosions under appropriate conditions.

              • Lanthanide, A fish in DHMO will die from oxygen deprivation.

                There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.

                • Lanthanide

                  “There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.”

                  Nor a shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between what the nazis did as experiments and torture, vs what health professionals do under informed science for the betterment of public health.

                  • You have missed the point entirely, Lanthanide.

                    The Nazis didn’t give fluoride to prisoners as an experiment or as a form of torture, and health professionals were never originally informed of the actual science, they were simply fed the Carnegie-Mellon propaganda.

                    “In Australia, the Dental Health & Research Foundation, which has such names as Colgate, Kellogg and other ex-Farben associates listed among it’s ‘governors and contributors’, has been irreverently but accurately dubbed “the Fluoride Mafia”. Closely allied with this Sydney University ‘Foundation’, in its printed promotional claims for fluorides and fluoridation, is ‘Foundation 41′. Unfortunately, the data of the “thorough investigations” said to have been carried out by the Foundation into fluoride, its benefits and its hazards, have never been made available, despite numerous appeals. A recent ABC Science Show’s examination of the scientific integrity of Foundation 41 may explain the elusive data. America is literally bursting at the seams with such Foundations, but amongst the earlier names were the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation and the Ford Foundation. It is necessary to mention these specifically because they were the first Foundations to make grants in the population (control) field and the Carnegie family merged with the Mellon family Institute to create the Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh in 1967.”

                    http://www.fluoridationfacts.com/education/propaganda/870000_perkins.htm

                    • Pasupial

                      @ Ugly

                      If only your passion for this nonsense could be turned to some cause more productive than endangering the health of Aotearoan communities.

                      At 2.2 I say that: “I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply.” I was going to further suggest that this might also be an advantage for attracting European tourists, but am now starting to think that might be a very bad idea.

                      If the anti-fluoridation mob were to be given power over a large vat of water in every town; how long would it before they started drowning witches?

  3. Saarbo 3

    Bill Ralston on The Nation. The Nation is providing an ignorant and mildly intelligent man a way bigger pedestal for his opinions than he deserves.

    Russel Norman…should be our next Prime Minister, excellent!

    • Rogue Trooper 3.1

      Thankful that I passed on The Nation; Bill Ralston, sigh.

      • Saarbo 3.1.1

        fell back to sleep watching Q&A, susan wood makes me almost want paul holmes back…i wonder what selection criteria TVNZ use to get Q&A hosts?

        and Fran O Sullivan’s grin is really scarey….what the hell is she grinning about.

  4. The NZEI union has been asked to address concerns held by some staff at Auckland’s Kelston Intermediate School over reciting a Maori prayer before lessons start each day.

    The school recites a karakia at the start of its weekly assembly and in classrooms before lessons begin.

    Staff deliver the prayer, which asks for the day to be blessed, help with work and to have a good week.

    An NZEI spokeswoman confirmed the union was intervening at the school.

    This story intrigued me because the principal says

    he had no idea some staff were unhappy with karakia in the classroom until contacted by the union representative.

    What has happened around communication at that school – I can’t understand why any issues couldn’t be raised with the principal instead of going to the union.

    and he said

    I guess what they might have been inquiring about is the presence of karakia, etc, within school so we talked about what we’re doing is not a religious thing but a cultural thing.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890829

    A karakia by definition is spiritual and that is the point of it – sure it is in Te reo Māori and is good practice for pronunciation but to take away the cultural context is not correct imo.

    • joe90 4.1

      This is recited where I work part time and doesn’t compromise to my godlessness.

      Whakataka te hau ki te uru,
      Whakataka te hau ki te tonga.

      Kia mākinakina ki uta,
      Kia mātaratara ki tai.

      E hī ake ana te atākura he tio,
      he huka, he hauhunga.

      Haumi e! Hui e! Tāiki e!

      http://folksong.org.nz/whakataka_te_hau/

      • marty mars 4.1.1

        I love that karakia Joe – thanks for reminding me.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1

          NZ children need an introduction to a spiritual practice. And a karakia seems perfect for the job.

          • QoT 4.1.1.1.1

            I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.

            If there’s actual education/discussion around why they do the karakia, awesome. But the original article doesn’t tell us that.

            • Saarbo 4.1.1.1.1.1

              yep. agree.

              • logie97

                Just so we can keep some balance in this, the Abrahamic faiths/culture are the culture of Tauiwi are they not and adopted by the Pacific cultures.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Well, so is the alphabet. But it has been widely adopted and accepted by all. What was the exact point you were making?

            • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1.1.2

              So the NZEI is going to encourage that the activity is given some educational context? Well, that would be fine. If that’s what they are intending.

            • weka 4.1.1.1.1.3

              “I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.”

              I would expect an intermediate school in Auckland to have the cultural context spread throughout the curriculum and day to day goings on of the school (as it should be).

              The other schools quoted in the article appear to have developed use of karakia as part of cultural practice within the school over time.

              • Colonial Viper

                More basically, there is a place for traditions and rituals in our society. Might as well pick good ones for the young ones.

        • weka 4.1.1.2

          Beautiful karakia, I hadn’t seen that before. The explanation in the link is really good – showing not just the translation and structure of karakia, but the cultural differences, and how karakia is about taking us into relationship with the world (which is actually how some Christians and other religions use prayer, for anyone thinking it’s just about having an imaginary friend).

      • mac1 4.1.2

        “Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”

        This is recited where some people work, too, and it hasn’t compromised with their ‘godlessness’ either.

        • Rogue Trooper 4.1.2.1

          Interestingly, it was hearing that prayer, and the farce that follows it often, that sparked my interest in watching Parliament live. Major Frank Burns.

    • Rogue Trooper 4.2

      Communication Breakdown, all round.

    • McFlock 4.3

      One of the many unsung roles of union reps – a worker has a concern and (for whatever reason) doesn’t feel comfortable approaching the employer about it themselves. Sorting out issues in the workplace so bad feelings don’t fester and harm the organisation.

  5. Chrissy 5

    Did simon bridges get a nice new 32ml cancer unit for Tauranga for being a good boy?Funny to see paula bennett holding the high moral ground about private info being sent a person who is supposedly blackmailing her Dept in a bid to have her child returned to her, when she herself blackmailed two beneficiaries, who challenged her policies, by threatening publication of their private and personal details. Which she in fact did. Deeply hypocritical.

    • Rogue Trooper 5.1

      Cancer, heart disease, diabetes and aged-care is where the money is being thrown.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes

        • Populuxe1 5.1.1.1

          Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, and cancer is no great respecter of ethnicity – methinks you have scored an own goal.

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1

            Ethnicity? Where did I make any assumption on the ethnicity of the comfortable middle classes?

            Seems like a racist own goal there yourself, Pop.

            • Populuxe1 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Looking at the available poverty and health statistics, I see nothing racist in my assumptions.

          • rosy 5.1.1.1.2

            “Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, “
            Given that diabetes and heart disease are huge health problems world-wide, don’t you think there might be something other than ethnicity in play?

            “Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
            Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.

            Type 2 diabetes most often occurs in adulthood usually after the ages of 30 – 40 years. However, increasing numbers of teenagers and children are developing Type 2 diabetes. New estimates indicate 500 young people aged between 10 and 18 years have the disease that was, only a few years ago, virtually unknown in this age group.

            I reckon spending money to to prevent as much heart disease and Type-2 diabetes as possible – to enable people to work, and care for themselves, to reduce sickness and invalid benefits and reduce the need for expensive heart surgeries, dialysis for kidney failure and amputations due to poor circulation might be a good public health spend for taxpayers of whatever age or class.

            • Rogue Trooper 5.1.1.1.2.1

              that is revealing about the incidence among the young rosy. You may not have used the term ‘public health’ correctly; this funding is likely to be directed to secondary and tertiary interventions.

              • rosy

                Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough – I meant the Public Health spend to prevent heart disease and Type-2 diabetes. These may later require secondary and tertiary interventions once the disease are established.

            • weka 5.1.1.1.2.2

              ““Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
              Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.”

              Yes, but I suspect that CV’s point was that the money follows middle class, middle aged concerns. In this case, the fact that the low socio-economic classes benefit is a side effect.

              /cynicism.

  6. Morrissey 6

    The Sensible Sentencing Trust is not, and never was, a charity
    Sunday with Chris Laidlaw, Radio NZ National, Sunday 16 June 2013

    Main topic for discussion today is the deregistration of charities. First up, an interesting interview with the former director of CORSO, a real charity which was effectively destroyed by John Key’s hero Robert Muldoon in the late 1970s. Then, like night follows day, just as I predicted to my “companion”, this was followed by a respectful interview with….yes, you guessed it!…the utterly despicable Garth “The Knife” McVicar, Imperial Grand Dragon of the knife-killing advocates, the S.S. Trust.

    Appalled I flicked off the following email….

    Dear Chris,
    Jeremy Rose interviewed the S.S. Trust’s Garth McVicar as if he and his organization were a benevolent organization trying to do good work. In fact, the S.S. Trust is the very opposite of benevolent. When a teenage boy was chased down on a Manurewa street and stabbed to death in 2008, McVicar and his organization led a public campaign of defamation of the dead boy and heaped abuse and scorn on his parents and his wider family.

    To compound this, he championed the man who had killed the boy as an “upstanding New Zealander.” Far from moderating these extreme views, McVicar amplified them in his book, entitled with brazen cynicism Justice: Speaking up for Crime’s Silent Victims.

    McVicar continually portrays himself as a victim of official discrimination, as well as a victims’ rights advocate. He is neither. And his organization is not, and never was, a charity unless that word has been drained of meaning.

    Yours in disgust at the continual publicity afforded the S.S. Trust,
    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    ————————————————-

    Hopefully Chris Laidlaw will read it out. He did read out THIS one that I sent him exactly two months ago….

    Garth McVicar should be declared persona non grata; why is he still being treated with deference?

    Dear Chris,
    In the lead item on this morning’s Mediawatch, Colin Peacock spoke of Garth McVicar’s Sensible Sentencing Trust as if it were a victims’ advocacy organization.

    The facts are somewhat different.

    In 2008, after a teenage boy was chased down and stabbed to death on the street in Manurewa, Garth McVicar was loud in his condemnation—of the dead boy. McVicar spoke sympathetically and supportively about the killer, and he went on to lead an extraordinarily brutal media campaign of character assassination of the victim and his family.

    In his recent authorized biography, McVicar reiterated his support for the killer.

    I am disturbed that Mediawatch, and indeed Radio New Zealand National, still treats this vicious and cruel person with respect.

    Yours sincerely,
    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

  7. Colonial Viper 7

    2007: which leading American politician spoke out most strongly against spying on ordinary US citizens?

    Here is the quote:

    “This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.

    That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient.”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-15/who-said-it-administation-acts-violating-civil-liberties-way-enhance-our-security

    • Rogue Trooper 7.1

      His earlier positions, even as President, have been re-played on the television news.
      That McCain sure is a Warhawk; interesting that the USS Forrestal fire was in ’67.

  8. Pascal's bookie 8

    Rumours of Snowden’s exaggeration have been exaggerated:

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-admits-listening-to-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants/

    Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed “simply based on an analyst deciding that.”
    If the NSA wants “to listen to the phone,” an analyst’s decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. “I was rather startled,” said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.
    Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA’s formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.
    Because the same legal standards that apply to phone calls also apply to e-mail messages, text messages, and instant messages, Nadler’s disclosure indicates the NSA analysts could also access the contents of Internet communications without going before a court and seeking approval.
    The disclosure appears to confirm some of the allegations made by Edward Snowden, a former NSA infrastructure analyst who leaked classified documents to the Guardian. Snowden said in a video interview that, while not all NSA analysts had this ability, he could from Hawaii “wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president.”
    There are serious “constitutional problems” with this approach, said Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation who has litigated warrantless wiretapping cases. “It epitomizes the problem of secret laws.”
    The NSA yesterday declined to comment to CNET. A representative said Nadler was not immediately available. (This is unrelated to last week’s disclosure that the NSA is currently collecting records of the metadata of all domestic Verizon calls, but not the actual contents of the conversations.)

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      And many of those “low ranking analysts” are not even govt employees, they are private sector consultants like Snowden.

      Basically the whole issue has moved beyond that of simple spin; when it comes to matters this important the authorities feel that they have to lie, for our own good.

    • Populuxe1 8.2

      The only thing that surprises me is that a US politician would be so niave, and has clearly not read the Patriot Act and considered its implications.

      • Colonial Viper 8.2.1

        The author of the Patriot Act, Rep Sensenbrenner, regards how his Act is being used today as an outright abuse of the law, and says that the Act was designed to prevent exactly this kind of “dragnet” surveillance. He is actively campaigning in the House on this.

      • Pascal's bookie 8.2.2

        Interesting Pop. What part of the Patriot Act are you talking about?

        I ask because it’s a really long Act, I’m surprised you’ve read it to be honest. The relevant Act here would appear to be FISA though:

        That law says surveillance may be authorized by the attorney general and director of national intelligence without prior approval by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, as long as minimization requirements and general procedures blessed by the court are followed.
        A requirement of the 2008 law is that the NSA “may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States.” A possible interpretation of that language, some legal experts said, is that the agency may vacuum up everything it can domestically — on the theory that indiscriminate data acquisition was not intended to “target” a specific American citizen.

        That’s how they grab everything (yet to be tested in any court AFAIA), it isn’t deemed collected until someone looks at the data, (another ‘interpretation’ of an Act that is yet to be tested in the courts). From there (having it on file) analysts seem to be have been given authority to look at what’s been grabbed without a warrant under FISA, or anything else. So where in the Patriot Act is this made legal, seeing it would appear to be in breach of the 4th amendment? Please enlighten me.

        • Pascal's bookie 8.2.2.1

          I’ll give a a hint, start at section 200, look for language that authorises warrantless looking at intercepted comms.

          Pay close attention to 204. Hint: FISA or GTFO

  9. johnm 9

    Here’s a good example of a typical horror story of Privatisation in the U$K.
    Thames Water had been set up with the taxpayer’s commonwealth but under the neoliberal madness of Thatcher and the profit mad greedies following it’s been prvatised. On a turnover of over a billion pounds they made a profit of half a billion which they don’t pay tax on as they’re registered in the Carribean somewhere ! :-( ! people are complaining about water being too expensive and they’re getting sewage contaminated water.

    • Rogue Trooper 9.1

      Her Royal Highness, Patti Smith

    • The UK is toast in my opinion. Labour and the Conservatives are basically the same and seem to be equally dedicated in razing the UK to the ground, in the name of neo liberalism. Sadly things won’t improve in the UK, eventually the UK will have the same inequality and poverty as places like India.

  10. Rogue Trooper 11

    New Zealand not pedalling those trade rick-shaws fast enough
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890893
    not enough Mandarins in the salad.

    Baby-Boomers loading the Gen Y up with debt
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10890779
    Love Bites.

    Blogging Handbrakes
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890802

    oooh, Dr. Naughty
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890813

    “the insidious creep of inefficiency” doing the rounds.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890800
    in NZ Hospitals.

    The ol’ Elder Abuse; reports tip of the ice-berg.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890751
    better the Devil you know.

  11. Good response from Marama and The Greens to the latest from labour

    A suggestion by the Labour candidate for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti that New Zealand should ‘stop immigrant workers coming here’ has been slammed by the Green Party.

    Responding to comments Meka Whaitiri made in an iwi radio interview on Friday, Green Party candidate Marama Davidson said such attitudes were out of date and out of place in Ikaroa-Rāwhiti.

    “I could not believe the Labour candidate seriously suggested that we should adopt the xenophobic policies of the far right” said Ms Davidson who worked for ten years at the Human Rights Commission.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/06/16/xenophobia-has-no-place-in-ikaroa-rawhiti/

    I hope this pathetic attempt to terrorise is treated with the contempt it deserves by voters.

    • Populuxe1 12.1

      What never seems to be addressed is what happens if, and likely, when Maori cease to even be the largest minority in Aotearoa

      • weka 12.1.1

        You mean when most NZers are Polynesian (Maori and PI)? That’s going to happen within a few generations.

        • Populuxe1 12.1.1.1

          Pacific Islanders are not tangata whenua and I find your lumping them together to be odd

      • marty mars 12.1.2

        Tangata whenua will continue to fight for their right to equality as guaranteed in the Treaty and as the indigenous people of these islands, and those opposed will continue to oppose it. That is what has, is, and will, continue to happen until equality is achieved imo.

    • weka 12.2

      I’m not greatly in favour of increasing general immigration to NZ, so was pleased to see this from Davidson

      “Rather than banning all migrant workers, the Green Party would support a review of the special permit process that seasonal workers come in on to fill so-called labour shortages”

  12. Kim Hill interviewing Sibel Edmonds:
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2558757/sibel-edmonds-whistle-blowing

    Solid interview by Kim Hill, but it mainly covers Edmonds’ background with the FBI, not her more recent work on Gladio-B and the Syria angle. Some nuggets were Edmonds’ accounts of the FBI’s lack of accountability, rewarding of unlawful behaviour and post 9/11 contact with Ayman al-Zawahiri. Also good info on the US states secrets privilege, the US mainstream press withholding damaging material, and data collected by security agencies being held for blackmail purposes.

    Looks like Kim Hill doesn’t know what due process is either.

  13. Rogue Trooper 14

    The worst wild-fire in Colorado history
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10890898
    it’s a Cisco Inferno, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine,
    He drink whiskey, Poncho drink the wine
    They rode the sunset, horse was made of steel
    The outlaws had us pinned down at the fort
    Cisco came in blastin’ drinkin’ port.

  14. Rogue Trooper 15

    The largest ever flood on the Danube
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/europe/news/article.cfm?l_id=7&objectid=10889241
    cost of flooding to Germany alone, 11B Euros, 55,000 people may need to be evacuated.
    Down the Carpathian drain

    • johnm 15.1

      Hi Rogue Trooper
      Climate Change. We’re no longer in the relatively stable climate since the last ice age ended but are in a new climate of an open ended warming world in despite of which some places are getting colder i.e. UK. Arctic Ice cap retreat is causing that.
      Note torrential rain in the Nelson area one woman killed by a slip,we’re getting it too.

  15. Rogue Trooper 16

    from te Newz;
    Devoy smacks Peters’ race-card hand; “stigmatizing a population for his own benefit”.(even Fran concurs :) ).
    Morsi under pressure from hardline Sunni clerics to go to war with Syria.
    http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Morsi-cuts-Egypts-Syria-ties-backs-no-fly-zone-316665

  16. Rogue Trooper 17

    Despite best efforts (things that do not work) Child Abuse in New Zealand has risen by nearly a third in the last five years; 21 000 new cases last year, 4000 in state care, of which 21 children were subjected to further abuse by carers

    “Horrific, we should be ashamed…a lot of policy written, yet a gap between policy and practice in this country”. – Judge Carolyn Henwood.

    Robert Schlaifer on the THEORY – PRACTICE GAP.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schlaifer
    Bring to test as soon as possible a number of alternate designs-pick one that combined good characterictics with few developmental problems-then work intensely to develop it.
    Now that should not be too difficult now, should it?

  17. infused 18

    fyi, where is the evidence of water fluoridation having a positive effect? Curious. Bought a water distiller this week.

    Doesn’t toothpaste do enough of a job on it’s own?

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