“I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!”
Sue Moroney’s dismal, delusional anti-fluoridation rave
Backbenchers, Prime TV, Wednesday 12 June 2013, 10:30 p.m.
Hosts: Wallace Chapman, Damian Christie
Politicians: Sue Moroney (Labour), Simon O’Connor (National), Richard Prosser (New Zealand First)
If you can bear the unedifying spectacle of “wretchedness o’ercharg’d”, then please watch as Labour List lightweight Sue Moroney, in an incredible display of sheer purblind obstinacy, incites the crowd to outraged jeering, and drives the normally unflappable Wallace Chapman to completely lose his rag.
First topic for tonight is the Edward Snowden story…
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him? SUE MORONEY:[face frozen in rictus grin] Ahhhhhhhhhhh. [extended pause] No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters. WALLACE CHAPMAN:[shrugs shoulders, raises eyebrows in disbelief] Okay then. Do you feel sorry for Peter Dunne? SUE MORONEY: Ohhhhh, look, he’s a minister. There are expectations we have of a minister, and he failed. WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you? SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!
For a moment, a stunned and ominous silence fills the Backbenchers Tavern; then the slight titter of derisive laughter, and also a slight percussive sound: the Labour Party supporters gnashing their teeth in mortification. Wallace Chapman licks his lips, shakes his head in disbelief, then he decides to see if he can get someone to talk sense….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: All right, I’ll ask all three of our politicians: Edward Snowden, hero or villain? RICHARD PROSSER: Ooooh…depends where you stand. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay. Short and sweet. Sue Moroney? SUE MORONEY:[significant pause] I’d like a lot more information. But I guess he’s a hero. SIMON O’CONNOR: He’s a young man who made a rash decision. He hasn’t thought it through.
Next topic is FLUORIDATION. Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program. It surely makes sense, therefore, that a parliamentary backbencher from Hamilton should be on Backbenchers tonight. Surely. Unfortunately, as we have already seen by her confused and contradictory statements about the Edward Snowden case, this particular backbencher makes little or no sense at all….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: What do you think of that decision, Sue Moroney? SUE MORONEY:[significant pause] I stand with Labour. We need a proper government inqu—- SIMON O’CONNOR: No, no, no, no, no! That’s not good enough, Sue! I ask you to give me an answer and you say nothing that makes sense. This is a bit of a shocker, Sue! SUE MORONEY: Research and evidence! I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do! SIMON O’CONNOR: The evidence is beyond doubt. There are SCORES of peer-reviewed studies in academic journals. WALLACE CHAPMAN: Richard Prosser, what do you think about fluoride in the water supply? RICHARD PROSSER: I have to say I would be personally against it. SIMON O’CONNOR:[drily, to Prosser] I’ll send you the articles in Nature and by the government’s Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman tomorrow.
Chapman has obviously prepared seriously for this, to the extent of bringing on Doctor JONATHAN BROADBENT, an expert in dental epidemiology from Otago University. Dr Broadbent explains that there is no rational debate about it, and that there has already been a major inquiry on the matter: the major New Zealand study on the effects of fluoridation was completed in 1971. He speaks for a considerable time, and then it’s time to confront the List MP from Hamilton with a cold dose of reality….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: He makes sense, Sue Moroney, you don’t. SUE MORONEY: Well if you base your decision on forty-year-old science—-
At this point, there is sustained jeering from the audience. Cries of “Shame!” and “Ignorant!” can be heard.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: We know where you stand. You stand with Richard Prosser. SUE MORONEY:[nonplussed expression on face] Ummmm….We need an inquiry!
More angry, contemptuous hooting and jeering.
SIMON O’CONNOR: Here we are again, Labour asking for another inquiry. SUE MORONEY:[rictus grin now replaced by angry scowl] Well, FORTY-YEAR-OLD SCIENCE! Do you want to put your faith in forty-year-old science?
Hooting and jeering and derisive laughter continues….
The rest of the show consists of poor, awkward Damian Christie circulating round groups of drinkers, poking a microphone into their midst and trying to get them to answer his extraordinarily inane questions. As usual, this is an excruciatingly painful watch.
Earlier, in the interview in which he revealed his identity to the world, Snowden explained that he had sought refuge in Hong Kong because it “has a strong tradition of free speech” and “a long tradition of protesting in the streets”.
Local activists plan to take to the streets on Saturday in support of Snowden. Groups including the Civil Human Rights Front and international human rights groups will march from Chater Gardens in Central to the US consulate on Garden Road, starting at 3pm.
The march is being organised by In-media, a website supporting freelance journalists.
“We call on Hong Kong to respect international legal standards and procedures relating to the protection of Snowden; we condemn the US government for violating our rights and privacy; and we call on the US not to prosecute Snowden,” the group said in a statement.
Good on Snowden. And what a compliment he has paid to the people of Hong Kong. I am jealous.
On the other hand in an unedifying mirror image of Sue Maroney’s sick comments, a Beijing Communist Party toady calls for Snowden’s deportation:
While many Hong Kong lawmakers, legal experts, activists and members of the public have called on the city’s courts to protect Snowden’s rights, others such as Beijing loyalist lawmaker and former security chief Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee said he should leave.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him?
SUE MORONEY: No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters.
Maroney. You suck. You are a disgrace to your party.
Fortunately for us. As in New Zealand, in Hong Kong, mainstream politicians are not the only ones who get to have a say. (Marking Hong Kong out as a democratic stand out. And also as a good choice by Snowden as a safe haven.)
Any politician that makes a statement in direct opposition to Edward Snowden’s brave act of conscience, as Maroney has done, does not belong in any political party that claims it stands for democracy.
But not according to “Ask me something that matters” Maroney.
Is Maroney parroting the Labour Party line, here?
Is Maroney speaking for the Labour Party, or for herself?
Why is David Shearer so silent on the spying scandals that have rocked New Zealand and the world?
Can Shearer be trusted to take over John Key’s role as minister for the SIS and GCSB?
When it comes to spying on us: Will an incoming Labour administration under the Shearer gang be a seamless continuation of Business As Usual?
Will a Labour administration repeal the Act that has legalised criminal behavior by the GCSB?
Will law breaking by the SIS the GCSB and the police, continue to be covered up and excused, under a Labour administration as they have been under a National one?
Who are the 88?
Are they really a danger to us?
Will David Shearer as head of the SIS honour OIA requests and release the names of the 88 New Zealanders illegally spied on? So that we, and they, can decide if the illegal intrusion on their privacy was justified?
Will New Zealand be a safe haven for prisoners of conscience under a Labour administration, no matter which country they hale from?
Maybe some Labour Party insiders might like to enlighten us?
That would be Hong Kong, territory of that bastion of free speech and democracy, the People’s Republic of China? Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to. Mind you, given he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does, I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
however, Google does not have powers to incarcerate you in Guantanamo Bay without trial, for no stated reason. That seems to be an important difference.
Sycophants and ideologically trustworthy servants of state power are not the ones who ever have to worry about having to flee state vengeance. You are safe, my friend.
…he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does
In view of your extensive form, it’s difficult to call this one, but I think that statement could be just about the stupidest thing you have ever written on this mostly excellent forum.
I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
Yes, the treatment of Julian Assange and Bradley Manning must have given comfort to all those who value liberty, human rights and justice. Oh yes.
100% right Jenny.Under Key NZ is little more than a vassal state of the U$. Why? Since Rogernomics we’ve bought into the Washington Consensus which is neoliberalism and privatisation and a horror of anything which is Socialist, even a simple mixed economy. Defence wise we’re locked in with Australia, the U$’s sheriff in the southern pacific, our subservience to the U$ is shown by having soldiers in Afghanistan. The greatest figure of South American politics the anti neoliberal Hugo Chavez, Key did not attend his funeral though he visited ex Pinochet Chile. To give asylum to Snowden would be a direct slap in the face to the U$ military hegemony, and our defence agreements with them, no politician in Labour or National would do that.
Without U$ military might in the Pacific there would be a huge power vacuum almost certainly filled by China. The Japanese would almost certainly have to develop nuclear weapons against North Korea and China as a deterrent.
That said we should still give Snowden asylum showing we’re not total toady bastards to U$ military and security dominance
I don’t think you need worry. The US is greatly expanding its presence in the Pacific and nothing we do will change that. Having said that we also want to keep both China and the US on side, while ensuring we do what is best for NZ.
True. The ones we’re experiencing ATM are financial but I was speaking of direct invasion. To stop the financial invasion we’d also have to declare neutrality and then drop the Washington Consensus.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights
How about our own government spying on New Zealanders?
Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’, i should imagine even tho it doesn’t seem a topic to fire the imagination that there would have been ‘opposition’ to the mass uptake of fluoridation in the 70’s,
i have no strong view either way but would suggest that in the ‘stuffed shirt’ days of the 70’s the prevailing view of ‘science’ would have and has lead to a really nice little earner for chemical companies over many generations,
i havn’t heard of farming communities suffering any worse dental outcomes than ‘towny’ communities do they stuff their water tanks with fluoride…
DoS does ignore one factor. While the fact that the Earth is round hasn’t changed in 40 years, our understanding of medicine, biochemistry, physiology and human health has radically changed.
The harms caused by something like smoking or by pestcides like 245T for example…we know things now about detailed mechanisms that they barely suspected back then.
Shit if 40 year old science is a problem what about those idiots that decided the earth was round, or that gravity caused things to fall.
Descendant Of Sssmith
Or indeed, the hundred year old science of heavier than air flight.
What nonsensical rationalisations these are. And from an Labour MP who by refusing to support safe haven for Edward Snowden, is supporting the crude and cruel hounding of this brave individual who courageously and at great personal cost has exposed to the public view, a level of intrusive state surveilence into US and other countries citizens engaged in by the US government that would make the East German Stasi blush.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you?
SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!
What Chapman could have asked her was; Do you have any brains? To which this tory could have given the same answer.
With these sort of statements Sue Maroney shows she properly belongs in the National Party caucus, or the even more whacky ACT caucus. (If there ever was such a thing again).
This is the sort of smug dismissal I would normally expect to come from John Key. And not a Labour Party MP. How on earth did Sue Maroney get on the Labour list?
Jenny, your complaint about Moroney is based on what Moz claims she said. You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
Moroney, and Labour, want an independent enquiry to see whether fluoride is needed or not. That seems sensible given that the opposition to it seems to be reduced to ‘but, nazis!’
You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
You have already been exposed several times for your pettifogging and quibbling, but I see you are back at it. Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim as it would be if I had laboriously transcribed from a tape recording. But I got the key parts of that horrifyingly substandard performance absolutely right, and you know it.
I did not make up any of it—even in my most extravagantly satirical mood, I could not imagine anything as stupid and irresponsible as Sue Moroney came out with on Wednesday night.
Point not so well made is my view, you are comparing the ‘science of nature’ with the ‘chemical science of man’,
The two are as different as chalk and cheese, the Earth is spherical because it is!!! that’s hardly based upon science and it was hardly science that someone at some point gained the means to sail out past the horizon and discover that it ain’t flat,
Ugly Truth in comment 2 links to some large scientific studies that debunk the fluoride myth…
On the contrary, what changes in population health & chemical science is the degree of accuracy, not the facts.
Hence the research about going for 0.7ppm rather than 0.75, as opposed to the range 40 years ag which was say 0.6-1.2ppm.
But the clear benefits of fluoridation were evident 60 years ago, no matter what UT thinks. His link in comment two was incorrect at point one and went downhill from there.
For example: “According to the NIDR’s statisticians, the study found an average difference of only 0.6 DMFS (Decayed Missing and Filled Surfaces) in the permanent teeth of children aged 5-17 residing in either fluoridated or unfluoridated areas (Brunelle and Carlos, 1990). This difference is less than one tooth surface! There are 128 tooth surfaces in a child’s mouth.“. Let’s say 200,000 children: that’s 120,000 teeth that require additional treatment such as fillings, capping or extraction before the age of 17 (not to mention the next 60 years).
Farming families are generally issued fluoride tabs, we were. Also did not have much access to soft drink and lollies :-), made up for it when we left home.
Nor had i until i got onto the link in comment 2, which shows that there is a fairly large amount of study by reputable scientists which paint the depositing of fluoride into the water system in a not very favorable light,
i may be wrong but i see Sue Moroney as part of the well meaning middle class who may not have too many clues but are (slightly) left leaning,
The Labour Party is chocka with such people it’s why they can come up with such a grand idea as shoe-horning the children of the middle class onto the ‘property ownership ladder’ whilst remaining eerily SILENT on the economic fate of the Mene Mene’s of this world…
I agree RT – I frequently find myself asking (myself): Who the fuck ARE these people?, and how the hell did this happen?
I know the answer, but I also wonder WHY we keep empowering them.
The Labour Party’s worst enemy (enema even) has always been apathy. But the buggers just KEEP subscribing to the doctor’s prescription – even when it’s giving them the runs.
Who the hell is advising them (I’ll send the boys around – half of them a mates of Mallard anyway)?
An hour or so on, and after a sesh with the proctologist, I’m more the wiser and in no need now of a dainty little dinner party anyway.
The difference between National and Labour is that Nat members strut around asking anyone that will listen “Don’t you know who I am?”, whilst members of Labour ask themselves and anyone that will listen – “who the fuck are “WE”?’
Well I’ve just struck her off my dinner party list! Or maybe not. I’ll discuss my proctologist with her, instead of my psychiatrist – I’m sure she’ll be able to give me some deep and meaningful advice. She’ll probably advise I need a second (perhaps even 3rd) opinion.
“Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program”
Don’t beat around the bush, Morrisey. Tell us what you really think.
50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
Dr. Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University
Having you oppose fluoridation seems one of the best reasons to support it (I guess those strip-club girls don’t care too much about the state of your teeth if you’re bulging at the wallet area).
However, I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply. I doubt there would be that many (a similar, or lesser, proportion than those who signed Hamilton’s failed referendum against it). Plus it could be used as an emergency back-up for the scientifically literate if there was a disruption to the normal water works.
Crap. A handful of obsessive rebels without a cause and chickenship councilors in election year have condemned thousands of high-deprivation children to the misery of excrutiatingly bad oral health and the downstream effects that will last all their lives. And if those same heroes get crook tomorrow, they’ll accept – in fact demand – without the tiniest murmur, every other advance of modern medical science. Selfish, hypocritical, cretins.
regular brushing, morning and night, plenty of ‘sterilization’ over the years, and fluoridated water; only one extraction at 45. (though a few ‘knocked about’; wrong place, wrong time).
😎
LOLZ, obviously didn’t bother to read the ‘science’ contained in comment 2, suppose the ‘scientists’ involved in such studies,(some of them of multi-year duration) are all selfish, hypocritical cretins as well,
It would seem that the consensus of opposition to fluoride in water is that fluoride when applied orally via a toothpaste has some positive effect while adding such to drinking water is dubious at best and if a high enough dose of the stuff is continually added to drinking water there are negative effects becoming apparent…
bad12 if you remember that this debate is now not one of science and rational discourse, it is one of belief systems and world views, it will make more sense. Part of a civic religion in other words.
That’s why you are seeing the emotional polemics, condemning our children to hell, I mean, in the form of a lifetime of decaying rotten teeth. You are messing with the transmitted orthodoxy.
It appears that one’s worship of Uncle Sam is a must in the fluoride ‘debate’, it appears that ALL of non-English speaking Europe has now ceased to apply fluoride to water supplies,
This is obviously a plot by non-English speaking dentists from all over Europe who can see mountains of money to be made from all them kids with bad teeth…
Possibly not as effective for poor people or maybe those who aren’t intimately aware of their micro-nutrient needs, though. Look at the price of higher-calcium milk, for example.
No, it is actual scientific fact. Here’s the first one from the list:
Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride.
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
“But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.”
I’d agree with the second* but would like to see a citation for the first. Modern fluoridation of water happens in places where humans generally eat diets that harm oral health. Are you suggesting that humans that don’t eat like that are better off with fluoridated water too? I haven’t looked to see what the research is saying on this but am curious if you have.
* to an extent. We know that some people don’t keep their teeth for life, or have poor oral health, even when they drink fluoridated water all that time.
All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.
Large numbers of advanced western countries have decided that fluoridation doesn’t justify mandatory use, and several have even withdrawn it from their populations after having had it for many years.
I’m not aware of any evidence which shows that children’s teeth in those countries are significantly worse off after the withdrawal of water fluoridation.
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.
McFlock …
16 June 2013 at 10:30 pm
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
McFlock, what key words would you use for a search? I did a quick google and found the following, but not much otherwise.
The best available evidence from studies following withdrawal of water fluoridation indicates that caries prevalence increases, approaching the level of the low fluoride group. Again, however, the studies were of moderate quality (level B), and limited quantity. The estimates of effect could be biased due to poor adjustment for the effects of potential confounding factors.
Note: it appears from a quick read that fluoride also changes the behaviour of bone cells through various poorly understood signalling mechanisms. I wonder what other cell signalling mechanisms it affects.
@Weka – not really my field, but Scandinavia has a pretty good history of epi research so I’d be surprised if they didn’t do something. Beyond the obvious (“fluoride”, etc) I’m not sure where to start.
I find that keyword searches can still overload one with results that are frequently only tangentially related to the actual area of interest – try title word searches as well if keywords bring up nothing useful.
“All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.”
Fair enough. Let me rephrase your earlier comment then,
from –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
to –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth if their oral health is destroyed in other ways and they don’t have fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
Myself, I would also add –
And addressing the reasons why good oral health is not promoted in NZ
at a preventative level is something we should be doing, including looking at meta issues of poverty, education, and whether mass medication is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff
“Mass medication” like iodised salt in bread and fluoride in water is prevention, not an ambulance. Even in the most equitable and civilised society, I would expect some initiatives along those lines. Because on the flipside of “personal choice” is “information overload” and “some people will have no freaking idea either way”.
A society that says we won’t ban soft drinks etc in schools or lollies at supermarket check outs, cannot then claim that regulating water fluoridation is prevention. It’s medication instead of prevention. True prevention is making sure that everyone can afford to eat well and has access to healthy foods, and is making sure that knowing how to eat well has the same value as reading and writing. Prevention also doesn’t see tooth decay as separate from diabetes or heart disease.
We are so far away from a prevention model we don’t even recognise what prevention is.
behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.
Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.
“behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.”
It’s not the logic behind my thinking. What I think is that if we promoted and practiced true prevention, then the rates of tooth decay would be much lower, and the fluoridation debate would look very different.
“Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.”
Sure. So we can educate (and legislate) about smoking and lots of people will quit, but some won’t. Of course we can’t really know what is going on there until we deal with poverty and the stresses of modern life too (both powerful influences on health).
But let’s say in some mythical world, we did actual health promotion in a meaningful way, poverty was drastically reduced, and people had genuine choices around how to live their lives. Some people still choose to eat lots of sugar and most of them get holes in their teeth. What percentage of the population would that need to be to warrant fluoridation of the water supply?
I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).
I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).
I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).
I would say that inclusion of a substance in the water supply (or staples like milk or bread) is the best course of action if it has a demonstrable benefit for some, does not cause demonstrable harm to others at the supplied levels, does not affect the appearance and quality of the product, and is more effective/efficient at reaching people in need than other intervention strategies.
So no, if a substance that didn’t adversely affect people was included in the water supply to help other people keep their feet, I would not be opposed to it.
Frankly I don’t get the big deal – being around a car or logburner is much more hazardous than fluoridated water.
I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).
Yes, it’s a balancing of rights to a certain degree (although, as you show, those worked up enough about flouridation would also have other issues with the municipal water supply). Excuse me for getting terse, but in the cases of folate in bread and water fluoridation, it’s the right to pretend to be able to control micronutrient intake (have you tested your bore for fluoride or other non-H2O substances? Down to less than one part per million?) against the right of other people to live healthier lives.
Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.
Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.
It looks to me like less than 5% of people have access to naturally occurring fluoride in water.
In the UK for instance wikipedia says 0.5M people receive naturally fluoridated water.
@ Ugly
The facts I can cope with fine. It’s pusillanimous hysteria and delusion that I have a problem with…
@Bad12
That’s not science – that’s a manipulative list from someone that regards pseudosciences such as; naturopathy, and chiropracty, as valid. I have no time for Paul Conman – link to someone with scientific credibility please. Here’s a link for you in the meantime: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/02/anti-fluoridation-crankery-how-1960s/
Let me know when you can comprehend the the difference, Pasupial.
Fluoride is a poison. It is a roughly as toxic as lead or arsenic, and it accumulates in the body. Fluorosis causes bone hardening, which makes osteoporosis more hazardous, and fluorine can cause loss of IQ and docility.
Fluoride was find used by the Nazis to keep prisoners docile and manageable, Later it was introduced into US water supplies under the watch of Andrew Mellon, a Nazi supporter and eugenicist.
His point is that the amounts of fluoride added to the water supply while not toxic in themselves have the ability to build up in the body bonding with other metallic elements as the body has not the means to expel an over-supply of fluorides…
I’d like a link about fluoride compounds accumulating in the body tissues or joints manner of heavy metals, rather than simply being consumed at higher levels than they can be excreted.
It’s a claim UT has made repeatedly without providing any evidence, and I suspect has similar provenance to their Jacques Cousteau “quote”, which turned out to be bunk.
Hey UT, I’m sure you’re also against dihydrogen monoxide?
Here are some facts about it:
* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
There are many more problems with it, too, but that’s just a short list to give you a taste.
Would you be surprised to learn that DHMO is found in all public drinking water, at concentrations that can lead to all of the above problems? The Nazis also made extensive use of DHMO in their concentration camps. Surely we should ban it too?
“There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.”
Nor a shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between what the nazis did as experiments and torture, vs what health professionals do under informed science for the betterment of public health.
The Nazis didn’t give fluoride to prisoners as an experiment or as a form of torture, and health professionals were never originally informed of the actual science, they were simply fed the Carnegie-Mellon propaganda.
“In Australia, the Dental Health & Research Foundation, which has such names as Colgate, Kellogg and other ex-Farben associates listed among it’s ‘governors and contributors’, has been irreverently but accurately dubbed “the Fluoride Mafia”. Closely allied with this Sydney University ‘Foundation’, in its printed promotional claims for fluorides and fluoridation, is ‘Foundation 41’. Unfortunately, the data of the “thorough investigations” said to have been carried out by the Foundation into fluoride, its benefits and its hazards, have never been made available, despite numerous appeals. A recent ABC Science Show’s examination of the scientific integrity of Foundation 41 may explain the elusive data. America is literally bursting at the seams with such Foundations, but amongst the earlier names were the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation and the Ford Foundation. It is necessary to mention these specifically because they were the first Foundations to make grants in the population (control) field and the Carnegie family merged with the Mellon family Institute to create the Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh in 1967.”
If only your passion for this nonsense could be turned to some cause more productive than endangering the health of Aotearoan communities.
At 2.2 I say that: “I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply.” I was going to further suggest that this might also be an advantage for attracting European tourists, but am now starting to think that might be a very bad idea.
If the anti-fluoridation mob were to be given power over a large vat of water in every town; how long would it before they started drowning witches?
The NZEI union has been asked to address concerns held by some staff at Auckland’s Kelston Intermediate School over reciting a Maori prayer before lessons start each day.
The school recites a karakia at the start of its weekly assembly and in classrooms before lessons begin.
Staff deliver the prayer, which asks for the day to be blessed, help with work and to have a good week.
An NZEI spokeswoman confirmed the union was intervening at the school.
This story intrigued me because the principal says
he had no idea some staff were unhappy with karakia in the classroom until contacted by the union representative.
What has happened around communication at that school – I can’t understand why any issues couldn’t be raised with the principal instead of going to the union.
and he said
I guess what they might have been inquiring about is the presence of karakia, etc, within school so we talked about what we’re doing is not a religious thing but a cultural thing.
A karakia by definition is spiritual and that is the point of it – sure it is in Te reo Māori and is good practice for pronunciation but to take away the cultural context is not correct imo.
I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.
If there’s actual education/discussion around why they do the karakia, awesome. But the original article doesn’t tell us that.
“I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.”
I would expect an intermediate school in Auckland to have the cultural context spread throughout the curriculum and day to day goings on of the school (as it should be).
The other schools quoted in the article appear to have developed use of karakia as part of cultural practice within the school over time.
Beautiful karakia, I hadn’t seen that before. The explanation in the link is really good – showing not just the translation and structure of karakia, but the cultural differences, and how karakia is about taking us into relationship with the world (which is actually how some Christians and other religions use prayer, for anyone thinking it’s just about having an imaginary friend).
“Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
This is recited where some people work, too, and it hasn’t compromised with their ‘godlessness’ either.
Interestingly, it was hearing that prayer, and the farce that follows it often, that sparked my interest in watching Parliament live. Major Frank Burns.
One of the many unsung roles of union reps – a worker has a concern and (for whatever reason) doesn’t feel comfortable approaching the employer about it themselves. Sorting out issues in the workplace so bad feelings don’t fester and harm the organisation.
Did simon bridges get a nice new 32ml cancer unit for Tauranga for being a good boy?Funny to see paula bennett holding the high moral ground about private info being sent a person who is supposedly blackmailing her Dept in a bid to have her child returned to her, when she herself blackmailed two beneficiaries, who challenged her policies, by threatening publication of their private and personal details. Which she in fact did. Deeply hypocritical.
Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, and cancer is no great respecter of ethnicity – methinks you have scored an own goal.
“Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, “
Given that diabetes and heart disease are huge health problems world-wide, don’t you think there might be something other than ethnicity in play?
“Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.
Type 2 diabetes most often occurs in adulthood usually after the ages of 30 – 40 years. However, increasing numbers of teenagers and children are developing Type 2 diabetes. New estimates indicate 500 young people aged between 10 and 18 years have the disease that was, only a few years ago, virtually unknown in this age group.
I reckon spending money to to prevent as much heart disease and Type-2 diabetes as possible – to enable people to work, and care for themselves, to reduce sickness and invalid benefits and reduce the need for expensive heart surgeries, dialysis for kidney failure and amputations due to poor circulation might be a good public health spend for taxpayers of whatever age or class.
that is revealing about the incidence among the young rosy. You may not have used the term ‘public health’ correctly; this funding is likely to be directed to secondary and tertiary interventions.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough – I meant the Public Health spend to prevent heart disease and Type-2 diabetes. These may later require secondary and tertiary interventions once the disease are established.
““Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.”
Yes, but I suspect that CV’s point was that the money follows middle class, middle aged concerns. In this case, the fact that the low socio-economic classes benefit is a side effect.
The Sensible Sentencing Trust is not, and never was, a charity Sunday with Chris Laidlaw, Radio NZ National, Sunday 16 June 2013
Main topic for discussion today is the deregistration of charities. First up, an interesting interview with the former director of CORSO, a real charity which was effectively destroyed by John Key’s hero Robert Muldoon in the late 1970s. Then, like night follows day, just as I predicted to my “companion”, this was followed by a respectful interview with….yes, you guessed it!…the utterly despicable Garth “The Knife” McVicar, Imperial Grand Dragon of the knife-killing advocates, the S.S. Trust.
Appalled I flicked off the following email….
Dear Chris,
Jeremy Rose interviewed the S.S. Trust’s Garth McVicar as if he and his organization were a benevolent organization trying to do good work. In fact, the S.S. Trust is the very opposite of benevolent. When a teenage boy was chased down on a Manurewa street and stabbed to death in 2008, McVicar and his organization led a public campaign of defamation of the dead boy and heaped abuse and scorn on his parents and his wider family.
To compound this, he championed the man who had killed the boy as an “upstanding New Zealander.” Far from moderating these extreme views, McVicar amplified them in his book, entitled with brazen cynicism Justice: Speaking up for Crime’s Silent Victims.
McVicar continually portrays himself as a victim of official discrimination, as well as a victims’ rights advocate. He is neither. And his organization is not, and never was, a charity unless that word has been drained of meaning.
Yours in disgust at the continual publicity afforded the S.S. Trust,
Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point
————————————————-
Hopefully Chris Laidlaw will read it out. He did read out THIS one that I sent him exactly two months ago….
Garth McVicar should be declared persona non grata; why is he still being treated with deference?
Dear Chris,
In the lead item on this morning’s Mediawatch, Colin Peacock spoke of Garth McVicar’s Sensible Sentencing Trust as if it were a victims’ advocacy organization.
The facts are somewhat different.
In 2008, after a teenage boy was chased down and stabbed to death on the street in Manurewa, Garth McVicar was loud in his condemnation—of the dead boy. McVicar spoke sympathetically and supportively about the killer, and he went on to lead an extraordinarily brutal media campaign of character assassination of the victim and his family.
In his recent authorized biography, McVicar reiterated his support for the killer.
I am disturbed that Mediawatch, and indeed Radio New Zealand National, still treats this vicious and cruel person with respect.
2007: which leading American politician spoke out most strongly against spying on ordinary US citizens?
Here is the quote:
“This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient.”
His earlier positions, even as President, have been re-played on the television news.
That McCain sure is a Warhawk; interesting that the USS Forrestal fire was in ’67.
Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed “simply based on an analyst deciding that.”
If the NSA wants “to listen to the phone,” an analyst’s decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. “I was rather startled,” said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.
Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA’s formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.
Because the same legal standards that apply to phone calls also apply to e-mail messages, text messages, and instant messages, Nadler’s disclosure indicates the NSA analysts could also access the contents of Internet communications without going before a court and seeking approval.
The disclosure appears to confirm some of the allegations made by Edward Snowden, a former NSA infrastructure analyst who leaked classified documents to the Guardian. Snowden said in a video interview that, while not all NSA analysts had this ability, he could from Hawaii “wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president.”
There are serious “constitutional problems” with this approach, said Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation who has litigated warrantless wiretapping cases. “It epitomizes the problem of secret laws.”
The NSA yesterday declined to comment to CNET. A representative said Nadler was not immediately available. (This is unrelated to last week’s disclosure that the NSA is currently collecting records of the metadata of all domestic Verizon calls, but not the actual contents of the conversations.)
And many of those “low ranking analysts” are not even govt employees, they are private sector consultants like Snowden.
Basically the whole issue has moved beyond that of simple spin; when it comes to matters this important the authorities feel that they have to lie, for our own good.
The author of the Patriot Act, Rep Sensenbrenner, regards how his Act is being used today as an outright abuse of the law, and says that the Act was designed to prevent exactly this kind of “dragnet” surveillance. He is actively campaigning in the House on this.
Interesting Pop. What part of the Patriot Act are you talking about?
I ask because it’s a really long Act, I’m surprised you’ve read it to be honest. The relevant Act here would appear to be FISA though:
That law says surveillance may be authorized by the attorney general and director of national intelligence without prior approval by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, as long as minimization requirements and general procedures blessed by the court are followed.
A requirement of the 2008 law is that the NSA “may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States.” A possible interpretation of that language, some legal experts said, is that the agency may vacuum up everything it can domestically — on the theory that indiscriminate data acquisition was not intended to “target” a specific American citizen.
That’s how they grab everything (yet to be tested in any court AFAIA), it isn’t deemed collected until someone looks at the data, (another ‘interpretation’ of an Act that is yet to be tested in the courts). From there (having it on file) analysts seem to be have been given authority to look at what’s been grabbed without a warrant under FISA, or anything else. So where in the Patriot Act is this made legal, seeing it would appear to be in breach of the 4th amendment? Please enlighten me.
Spill. You’ve got some theory that you reckon shuld be obvious to everyone, and yet no one is citing it as justification. Head of NSA has denied over the years that they are doing what you claim is justified by the Act.
I’m interested in what you think, care to share it?
This is the best mainstream in depth report I’ve seen so far, oddly no one seems to have picked up on your theory Pop, whatever it is. This report details Bush era legal types threatening to resign over metadata gathering, far less than what you allege people would have to be naive to think isn’t going on.
Here’s a good example of a typical horror story of Privatisation in the U$K.
Thames Water had been set up with the taxpayer’s commonwealth but under the neoliberal madness of Thatcher and the profit mad greedies following it’s been prvatised. On a turnover of over a billion pounds they made a profit of half a billion which they don’t pay tax on as they’re registered in the Carribean somewhere ! 🙁 ! people are complaining about water being too expensive and they’re getting sewage contaminated water.
The UK is toast in my opinion. Labour and the Conservatives are basically the same and seem to be equally dedicated in razing the UK to the ground, in the name of neo liberalism. Sadly things won’t improve in the UK, eventually the UK will have the same inequality and poverty as places like India.
The young people of Turkey are rejecting the corporate fascism islam tainted of neoliberalism and market tyranny. Profit and money more important than people.
Good response from Marama and The Greens to the latest from labour
A suggestion by the Labour candidate for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti that New Zealand should ‘stop immigrant workers coming here’ has been slammed by the Green Party.
Responding to comments Meka Whaitiri made in an iwi radio interview on Friday, Green Party candidate Marama Davidson said such attitudes were out of date and out of place in Ikaroa-Rāwhiti.
“I could not believe the Labour candidate seriously suggested that we should adopt the xenophobic policies of the far right” said Ms Davidson who worked for ten years at the Human Rights Commission.
Tangata whenua will continue to fight for their right to equality as guaranteed in the Treaty and as the indigenous people of these islands, and those opposed will continue to oppose it. That is what has, is, and will, continue to happen until equality is achieved imo.
I’m not greatly in favour of increasing general immigration to NZ, so was pleased to see this from Davidson
“Rather than banning all migrant workers, the Green Party would support a review of the special permit process that seasonal workers come in on to fill so-called labour shortages”
Solid interview by Kim Hill, but it mainly covers Edmonds’ background with the FBI, not her more recent work on Gladio-B and the Syria angle. Some nuggets were Edmonds’ accounts of the FBI’s lack of accountability, rewarding of unlawful behaviour and post 9/11 contact with Ayman al-Zawahiri. Also good info on the US states secrets privilege, the US mainstream press withholding damaging material, and data collected by security agencies being held for blackmail purposes.
Looks like Kim Hill doesn’t know what due process is either.
The worst wild-fire in Colorado history http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10890898
it’s a Cisco Inferno, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine,
He drink whiskey, Poncho drink the wine
They rode the sunset, horse was made of steel
The outlaws had us pinned down at the fort
Cisco came in blastin’ drinkin’ port.
Hi Rogue Trooper
Climate Change. We’re no longer in the relatively stable climate since the last ice age ended but are in a new climate of an open ended warming world in despite of which some places are getting colder i.e. UK. Arctic Ice cap retreat is causing that.
Note torrential rain in the Nelson area one woman killed by a slip,we’re getting it too.
Despite best efforts (things that do not work) Child Abuse in New Zealand has risen by nearly a third in the last five years; 21 000 new cases last year, 4000 in state care, of which 21 children were subjected to further abuse by carers
“Horrific, we should be ashamed…a lot of policy written, yet a gap between policy and practice in this country”. – Judge Carolyn Henwood.
Robert Schlaifer on the THEORY – PRACTICE GAP. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schlaifer
Bring to test as soon as possible a number of alternate designs-pick one that combined good characterictics with few developmental problems-then work intensely to develop it.
Now that should not be too difficult now, should it?
Buzz from the Beehive Transport Minister Simeon Brown dutifully issued advice to all road users to keep safe on our roads during the Easter weekend. He encouraged them to stay safe, plan their journeys ahead of time, and be patient with other drivers while travelling around this Easter long weekend. ...
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Eric Crampton writes – Richard Harman’s Politik newsletter provides a bit of the context that ought to have been showing up in other media reports on potential reductions in public service staffing. Media has been reporting on staffing cuts on the order of about 7%. Is that ...
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Is she hinting that the Coalition Government will have to back down on key promises it made in Opposition?The Minister of Finance, Nicola Willis, is telling an evolving story about her fiscal challenges. In Opposition she was confident that she could deliver her promised income tax cuts. Appointed minister, she ...
Buzz from the Beehive Ministers of the Crown have drawn attention to one sector of the science sector which is unlikely to be subjected to heavy spending cuts, a state-funded broadcaster which is doing nicely, thank you, and a sporting event that had $5.4 million from the public purse puffed ...
Abbott’s Freestyle Libre sensors allow continuous glucose monitoring (CGM). The sensor is applied to the back of the patient’s arm, with a thin filament under the skin measuring glucose levels constantly. But it costs around $100 per sensor and must be replaced once every 14 days. Photo by BSIP/Universal Images ...
The Inspector General of Intelligence and Security (IGIS) recently released a report in which he exposes the existence of a foreign intelligence partner-controlled technological “capability” inside the headquarters of the GCSB, NZ’s 5 Eyes-affiliated signals intelligence collection and analysis agency. … Continue reading → ...
Peter Dunne writes – Nearly three decades after the introduction of MMP and multiparty governments there should be a greater level of understanding about their finer points than often appears to be the case. The reaction to the despicable outburst from the Deputy Prime Minister at the weekend highlights ...
The sweet kisses from fruit of summerHave slowly been turning dullerYou say, "those times"And "remember the daysWhen we went outside and there still was the shade?"Taking no reason into play…Autumn. Clear, blue days shortening to longer nights, growing colder. Aotearoa.That’s us. The temperature dropping, the looming car crash - so ...
Bryce Edwards writes – “It is often said that behind every great man is a great woman”. This is the pitch by the National Party Botany electorate branch to attend their “Ladies Afternoon Tea with Amanda Luxon”. For $110 including GST, you can turn up on Saturday 20 April ...
David Farrar writes – The Electoral Commission has published the expense returns for political parties for the 2023 election. I’ve put them in a table with how many votes a party got so we can see the spend per vote. National only spent $3.34 for every vote they got, almost ...
Winston Peters’ headline-making actions over the past week may have been a show of political power intended to strengthen his hand in Budget negotiations. It was no accident that his State of the Nation speech was as it was. He made it as New Zealand First Leader, not as Deputy ...
Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The five things that mattered in Aotearoa’s political economy that we wrote and spoke about via The Kākā and elsewhere for paying subscribers in the last week included:Former Labour Finance Minister Grant Robertson bowed out of politics this week, giving a series of exit ...
Graham Adams writes — If you love the law or sausages, as the saying goes, best not to look too closely at how they are made. And after watching the orgy of self-pity when Newshub’s closure was announced on February 28, television journalism should definitely be added to the list of those ...
Venerable New Zealand political commentator, Chris Trotter (https://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/), is a sad creature these days. Once one of the most reliable Leftist writers out there – Economic Left at that – Trotter seems to have absorbed the worldview of Auckland culture-war obsessives. It is not for me to categorise what he ...
The cruelty of short-term memory loss is that each time you ask where she is, you get the fresh shock and grief of the news. That was Dad's day yesterday.Comfortingly, it seems to be less so today. Last night he looked crumpled, today he seems more settled. There's a card ...
The Coalition Government’s plan to ‘get Auckland moving’ is a cuts cover-up that will ultimately cost Aucklanders more to move around the city, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Slashing the Ministry of Pacific Peoples by 40% will have a devastating impact on pacific communities and further highlights how little this government cares about anything other than cutting taxes for the wealthiest few. ...
Labour has proposed an urgent inquiry to investigate the ever-increasing profits of supermarkets, aiming to lower costs for shoppers and food producers alike, says Labour Spokesperson for Commerce and Consumer Affairs Arena Williams and Primary Production Spokesperson Cushla Tangaere-Manuel. ...
With 14% of jobs on the line at the Ministry for Ethnic Communities, the responsible Minister Melissa Lee is failing to stand up for the very communities she’s meant to be representing. ...
COURT OF APPEAL: TRIFECTA OF VICTORY FOR NZ FIRST, TRIFECTA OF FAILURE FOR OPPONENTS For the third time since April 2020, New Zealand First has defeated the Serious Fraud Office and all those complicit in a malicious attack against a political party going about its lawful business in a lawful ...
The Green Party stands with people who live in public housing, people in dire housing need, experts and advocates in demanding better than the Government’s archaic approach to housing those who need our support the most. ...
New Zealand has recently lost the hosting rights of some major international sporting events including the America’s Cup, the Rugby Championship, Netball World Cup, and the Wellington Sevens. We are now at a huge risk of losing SailGP as well. And it won’t stop there. The recent issues with SailGP ...
A Member’s Bill drawn this week would modernise insurance law and make things fairer and more transparent for consumers, Christchurch Central MP Duncan Webb said. ...
The Minister for Disability Issues has confirmed she was aware of funding issues in mid-December and did nothing to stop it. On 14 March, she signed off on changes that were announced and implemented on 18 March without any consultation with disability communities. ...
Green Party MP Julie Anne Genter says her members' bill is an opportunity for the coalition government to plug the gap in electric vehicle incentives. ...
The National Government continues to talk about irresponsible tax cuts that will only drive up inflation, despite the country entering a technical recession. ...
The Minister for Disability Issues must act urgently to reinstate flexibility around the funding for disability support and apologise to disabled carers. ...
This story has been initiated by a leftie shill reporter who proactively sought to call a member of a former band, which disbanded twelve years ago, give their biased appraisal of what was said in my speech, and concocted a ham-fisted attempt at a story that does nothing but show ...
The Government has accepted Labour’s change to the Road User Charge (RUC) discount for hybrid vehicles, meaning there will still be some incentive for people to buy greener vehicles. ...
Many in the mainstream media have taken what was said in New Zealand First’s State of the Nation Speech in Palmerston North on Sunday and deliberately, deceitfully, and ignorantly misrepresented what I said and why I said it. The headlines and commentary on the news stated that I compared ‘co-governance ...
Kicking the most vulnerable people out of state housing and pushing them towards homelessness will result in a proliferation of poverty and trauma across our most vulnerable communities. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader and MP for Waiariki, Rawiri Waititi has penned a letter asking MPs to support his members bill to remove GST from all food. The bill is expected to go through its first reading in parliament this Wednesday. “I’m calling on all political parties to support my ...
Good afternoon. Thank you for, in your very busy lives, turning up to this meeting today. On October 14th last year New Zealanders overwhelmingly voted for change. That is exactly what this new government is bringing. New Zealand First campaigned to ‘take back our country’ and stop the disastrous economic ...
This year is about getting real with Kiwis and discussing the tough issues, as the National Government exacerbates inequality and divides New Zealand, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said ...
The Government adding Significant Natural Areas (SNAs) to its already roaring environmental policy bonfire is an assault on the future of wildlife that makes Aotearoa unique. ...
After 12 years of fighting to protect our moana we are finding ourselves back at square one and back at court. Today, the Environmental Protection Agency is sitting in Hawera to reconsider an application from Trans-Tasman Resources to dig up 50 million tonnes of the seabed in South Taranaki. This ...
Minister Shane Jones’ decision to step away from a seabed mining project is evidence of the murky waters surrounding the Government’s fast-track legislation. ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The growth of Treaty of Waitangi clauses in legislation caused so much worry that a special oversight group was set up by the last government in a bid to get greater coherence in the publicservice on Treaty matters. When ministers first considered the need for tighter oversight in 2021, there ...
The Coalition Government’s miscalculation saga continues as it has forgotten an eyewatering $90 million gap in its interest deductibility cost figures, say Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds and Revenue Spokesperson Deborah Russell. ...
He Pou a Rangi Climate Change Commission has today released advice that says if the Government doesn’t act now New Zealand is at risk of not meeting its climate goals. ...
The Coalition Government has today confirmed it is abandoning first home buyers who are struggling to get ahead, says Labour Finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds. ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed the passing of legislation to move light electric vehicles (EVs) and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) into the road user charges system from 1 April. “It was always intended that EVs and PHEVs would be exempt from road user charges until they reached two ...
New Zealand is strengthening its ability to combat illegal fishing outside its domestic waters and beef up regulation for its own commercial fishers in international waters through a Bill which had its first reading in Parliament today. The Fisheries (International Fishing and Other Matters) Amendment Bill 2023 sets out stronger ...
Economists Carl Hansen and Professor Prasanna Gai have been appointed to the Reserve Bank Monetary Policy Committee, Finance Minister Nicola Willis announced today. The Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) is the independent decision-making body that sets the Official Cash Rate which determines interest rates. Carl Hansen, the executive director of Capital ...
Apartment owners and buyers will soon have greater protections as further changes to the law on unit titles come into effect, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “The Unit Titles (Strengthening Body Corporate Governance and Other Matters) Amendment Act had already introduced some changes in December 2022 and May 2023, and ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters will travel to Egypt and Europe from this weekend. “This travel will focus on a range of New Zealand’s traditional diplomatic and security partnerships while enabling broad engagement on the urgent situation in Gaza,” Mr Peters says. Mr Peters will attend the NATO Foreign ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown is encouraging all road users to stay safe, plan their journeys ahead of time, and be patient with other drivers while travelling around this Easter long weekend. “Road safety is a responsibility we all share, and with increased traffic on our roads expected this Easter we ...
About 1.4 million New Zealanders will receive cost of living relief through increased government assistance from April 1 909,000 pensioners get a boost to Superannuation, including 5000 veterans 371,000 working-age beneficiaries will get higher payments 45,000 students will see an increase in their allowance Over a quarter of New Zealanders ...
Ensuring social housing is being provided to those with the greatest needs is front of mind as the Government restarts social housing tenancy reviews, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. “Our relentless focus on building a strong economy is to ensure we can deliver better public services such as social ...
The Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary will not go ahead, with Cabinet deciding to stop work on the proposed reserve and remove the Bill that would have established it from Parliament’s order paper. “The Kermadec Ocean Sanctuary Bill would have created a 620,000 sq km economic no-go zone,” Oceans and Fisheries Minister ...
Dam safety regulations are being amended so that smaller dams won’t be subject to excessive compliance costs, Minister for Building and Construction Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on reducing costs and removing unnecessary red tape so we can get the economy back on track. “Dam safety regulations ...
The coalition Government is expanding the medium-scale adverse event classification to parts of the North Island as dry weather conditions persist, Agriculture Minister Todd McClay announced today. “I have made the decision to expand the medium-scale adverse event classification already in place for parts of the South Island to also cover the ...
The passing of legislation giving effect to coalition Government tax commitments has been welcomed by Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “The Taxation (Annual Rates for 2023–24, Multinational Tax, and Remedial Matters) Bill will help place New Zealand on a more secure economic footing, improve outcomes for New Zealanders, and make our tax system ...
Science, Innovation and Technology Minister Judith Collins and Tertiary Education and Skills Minister Penny Simmonds today announced plans to transform our science and university sectors to boost the economy. Two advisory groups, chaired by Professor Sir Peter Gluckman, will advise the Government on how these sectors can play a greater ...
The Budget will deliver urgently-needed tax relief to hard-working New Zealanders while putting the government’s finances back on a sustainable track, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The Finance Minister made the comments at the release of the Budget Policy Statement setting out the Government’s Budget objectives. “The coalition Government intends ...
The coalition Government will look at options to address a zoning issue that limits how much financial support Queenstown residents can get for accommodation. Cabinet has agreed on a response to the Petitions Committee, which had recommended the geographic information MSD uses to determine how much accommodation supplement can be ...
Cabinet has agreed to a short extension to the final reporting timeframe for the Royal Commission into Abuse in Care from 28 March 2024 to 26 June 2024, Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says. “The Royal Commission wrote to me on 16 February 2024, requesting that I consider an ...
The coalition Government is delivering an $18 million boost to New Zealanders needing to travel for specialist health treatment, Health Minister Dr Shane Reti says. “These changes are long overdue – the National Travel Assistance (NTA) scheme saw its last increase to mileage and accommodation rates way back in 2009. ...
The Government is recognising the innovative and rising talent in New Zealand’s growing space sector, with the Prime Minister and Space Minister Judith Collins announcing the new Prime Minister’s Prizes for Space today. “New Zealand has a growing reputation as a high-value partner for space missions and research. I am ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has confirmed New Zealand’s concerns about cyber activity have been conveyed directly to the Chinese Government. “The Prime Minister and Minister Collins have expressed concerns today about malicious cyber activity, attributed to groups sponsored by the Chinese Government, targeting democratic institutions in both New ...
Independent Reviewers appointed for School Property Inquiry Education Minister Erica Stanford today announced the appointment of three independent reviewers to lead the Ministerial Inquiry into the Ministry of Education’s School Property Function. The Inquiry will be led by former Minister of Foreign Affairs Murray McCully. “There is a clear need ...
State Highway 1 across the Brynderwyns will be open for Easter weekend, with work currently underway to ensure the resilience of this critical route being paused for Easter Weekend to allow holiday makers to travel north, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Today I visited the Brynderwyn Hills construction site, where ...
Introduction Good morning to you all, and thanks for having me bright and early today. I am absolutely delighted to be the Minister for Infrastructure alongside the Minister of Housing and Resource Management Reform. I know the Prime Minister sees the three roles as closely connected and he wants me ...
New Zealand stands with the United Kingdom in its condemnation of People’s Republic of China (PRC) state-backed malicious cyber activity impacting its Electoral Commission and targeting Members of the UK Parliament. “The use of cyber-enabled espionage operations to interfere with democratic institutions and processes anywhere is unacceptable,” Minister Responsible for ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters and Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced New Zealand will provide logistics support for the upcoming Solomon Islands election. “We’re sending a team of New Zealand Defence Force personnel and two NH90 helicopters to provide logistics support for the election on 17 April, at the request ...
The European Union Free Trade Agreement Legislation Amendment Bill received Royal Assent today, completing the process for New Zealand’s ratification of its free trade agreement with the European Union. “I am pleased to announce that today, in a small ceremony at the Beehive, New Zealand notified the European Union ...
Public consultation on the terms of reference for the Royal Commission into COVID-19 Lessons has concluded, Internal Affairs Minister Hon Brooke van Velden says. “I have been advised that there were over 11,000 submissions made through the Royal Commission’s online consultation portal.” Expanding the scope of the Royal Commission of ...
Hardworking families are set to benefit from a new credit to help them meet their early childcare education (ECE) costs, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. From 1 July, parents and caregivers of young children will be supported to manage the rising cost of living with a partial reimbursement of their ...
A specialised Independent Technical Advisory Group (ITAG) tasked with preparing and publishing independent non-binding advice on the design of a "green" (sustainable finance) taxonomy rulebook is being established, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “Comprising experts and market participants, the ITAG's primary goal is to deliver comprehensive recommendations to the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins has thanked the Chief of Army, Major General John Boswell, DSD, for his service as he leaves the Army after 40 years. “I would like to thank Major General Boswell for his contribution to the Army and the wider New Zealand Defence Force, undertaking many different ...
25 March 2024 Minister to meet Australian counterparts and Manufacturing Industry Leaders Small Business, Manufacturing, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly will travel to Australia for a series of bi-lateral meetings and manufacturing visits. During the visit, Minister Bayly will meet with his Australian counterparts, Senator Tim Ayres, Ed ...
Government commits almost $3 million for period products in schools The Coalition Government has committed $2.9 million to ensure intermediate and secondary schools continue providing period products to those who need them, Minister of Education Erica Stanford announced today. “This is an issue of dignity and ensuring young women don’t ...
Good morning, it’s great to be here. First, I would like to acknowledge the New Zealand Institute of Building Surveyors and thank you for the opportunity to be here this morning. I would like to use this opportunity to outline the Government’s ambitious plan and what we hope to ...
Minister for Pacific Peoples Dr Shane Reti has announced the Government’s commitment to the Auckland Secondary Schools Māori and Pacific Islands Cultural Festival, more commonly known as Polyfest. “The Ministry for Pacific Peoples is a longtime supporter of Polyfest and, as it celebrates 49 years in 2024, I’m proud to ...
Before moving onto the substance of today’s address, I want to recognise the very significant and ongoing contribution the Breast Cancer Foundation makes to support the lives of New Zealand women and their families living with breast cancer. I very much enjoy working with you. I also want to recognise ...
New Zealand has notched up a first with the launch of University of Canterbury research to the International Space Station, Science, Innovation and Technology and Space Minister Judith Collins says. The hardware, developed by Dr Sarah Kessans, is designed to operate autonomously in orbit, allowing scientists on Earth to study ...
Introduction Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today and I’m sorry I can’t be there in person. Yesterday I started in Wellington for Breakfast TV, spoke to a property conference in Auckland, and finished the day speaking to local government in Christchurch, so it would have been ...
The Coalition Government is contributing more than $1 million to support the establishment of an emergency multi-agency coordination centre in Northland. Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell announced the contribution today during a visit of the Whangārei site where the facility will be constructed. “Northland has faced a number ...
New Zealanders have enjoyed a broader range of voices telling the story of Aotearoa thanks to the creation of Whakaata Māori 20 years ago, says Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka. The minister spoke at a celebration marking the national indigenous media organisation’s 20th anniversary at their studio in Auckland on ...
Commercial catch limits for some fisheries have been increased following a review showing stocks are healthy and abundant, Ocean and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The changes, along with some other catch limit changes and management settings, begin coming into effect from 1 April 2024. "Regular biannual reviews of fish ...
Opposition MPs and unions are criticising a proposal by New Zealand’s Ministry of Pacific Peoples to cut staff by 40 percent. The country’s largest trade union — The Public Service Association — says the ministry has informed staff that it is looking to shed 63 of 156 positions. Opposition MPs ...
A poem by Poetry Aotearoa Yearbook 2024 featured poet Carin Smeaton. Daughtr of the 90s when she gets promoted to usherette a baby blu eel carries her all the way up to mothership she’s hovering high she lets the underaged in to see keanu reeves she lets the only lonely ...
Analysis by Keith Rankin. Keith Rankin, trained as an economic historian, is a retired lecturer in Economics and Statistics. He lives in Auckland, New Zealand. My earlier article – Can ‘Good’ be the Greater Evil? – looked at the issue of how wars should end, and how Good versus Evil ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 AMMA by Saraid de Silva (Moa Press, $38)A stunning debut novel reviewed by Brannavan ...
From Steve Martin to Ricky Stanicky, a pick’n’mix of things worth watching and listening to this long weekend. This is an excerpt from our weekly pop culture newsletter Rec Room. Sign up here. If you’re at a loss for something to occupy yourself with this Easter, don’t panic: The Spinoff’s got ...
Jesus had dinner with his 12 disciples right before he died. Noted historian Madeleine Chapman finds out who really deserved to be there.First published in 2018 but let’s be honest, the subject is timeless. As you sit on your couch this Easter Sunday, eating a chocolate egg you know ...
The newly-promoted Northern League club is on a mission to return to the National League for the first time in two decades. Plenty about domestic football in New Zealand has changed in that time – but the sense that this amateur competition is not an entirely level playing field remains. ...
Auckland Council has put a deadline on new weather-impacted property owners applying for categorisation as government funding looks set to run out. Councillors have voted to support a deadline of September 30 for property owners who haven’t accessed support to come forward and engage with the council’s recovery office. It ...
NONFICTION 1 BBQ Economics by Liam Dann (Penguin Random House, $40) “It’s official,” wrote Dann nine days ago in the Herald, where he works as business editor at large, “we’re in recession.” Yeah, great. He delivered the bad stats: “GDP fell 0.1 percent in the December 2023 quarter, compared with ...
Comment: Every year on February 2, a dozen men in tuxedos and top hats approach the burrow of a groundhog in Gobbler’s Knob, Pennsylvania and entice the beaver-like rodent to emerge and predict the weather. If the groundhog, named Punxsutawney Phil, sees its own shadow when it is summoned, legend ...
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By Anneke Smith, RNZ News political reporter A petition urging the New Zealand government to provide urgent humanitarian assistance to the Palestinian people has been tabled in the House. More than 200 people gathered on Parliament’s forecourt today and they were met by MPs from Labour, the Greens and Te ...
Pacific Media Watch The Paris-based global media freedom watchdog RSF (Reporters Without Borders) has appealed for information about the “disappearance” of Palestinian journalist Bayan Abusultan. She was reportedly last seen on March 19 among people “sequestered” in this week’s raid and siege of Al Shifa hospital by Israeli troops in ...
EDITORIAL:The Jakarta Post It happens again and again; indigenous Papuans fall victim to Indonesian soldiers. This time, we have photographic evidence for the brutality, with videos on social media showing a Papuan man being tortured by a group of plainclothes men alleged to be the Indonesian Military (TNI) members. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Robyn J. Whitaker, Director of the Wesley Centre for Theology, Ethics, and Public Policy & Associate Professor, New Testament, Pilgrim Theological College, University of Divinity A strange and eclectic range of activities takes place across these few weeks of the year. Some ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Panizza Allmark, Professor Visual & Cultural Studies, Edith Cowan University It’s Easter weekend, which means many of us will be kicking back with the greatest hits on repeat. But whether you’re a boomer, or an ‘80s or ’90s kid, you might be ...
RNZ Pacific Fiji’s Acting Public Prosecutor has filed an appeal against the sentences of former prime minister Voreqe Bainimarama and suspended police chief Sitiveni Qiliho in their corruption case. Bainimarama was granted an absolute discharge for attempting to pervert the course of justice while Qiliho received a conditional discharge with ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Arosha Weerakoon, Senior Lecturer and General Dentist, School of Dentistry, The University of Queensland Casezy idea/Shutterstock How does toothpaste work? What did people use before toothpaste was invented? – Amelia, age 7, Meanjin (Brisbane) Thanks for your ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brett Hallam, Associate professor, UNSW Sydney IM Imagery/Shutterstock Solar SunShot is well named. The Australian government announced today it would plough A$1 billion into bringing back solar manufacturing to Australia, boosting energy security, swapping coal and gas jobs for those ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Dix, Research Fellow in Nutrition & Dietetics, The University of Queensland Easter is the time for chocolate. The shops are full of fantastically packaged and shiny chocolates in all shapes and sizes, making trips to the supermarket with children more challenging ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emma Felton, Adjunct Senior Researcher, University of South Australia Even in a stubborn cost-of-living crisis, it seems there’s one luxury most Australians won’t sacrifice – their daily cup of coffee. Coffee sales have largely remained stable, even as financial pressures have ...
Mining company Trans-Tasman Resources has unexpectedly withdrawn its application for a consent to suck the valuable metals vanadium and titanium from the Taranaki seafloor, as it apparently wagers on the Government’s new fast-track process. It had spent two-and-a-half days putting its case to the Environmental Protection Agency’s decision-making committee, at ...
Contrary to the Associate Minister of Education’s claims, analysis of Healthy School Lunches Programme - Ka Ora, Ka Ako assessments has revealed it provides excellent value for the taxpayer dollar, as a groundswell of public opposition to Government ...
Greenpeace says wannabe Taranaki seabed miner Trans-Tasman Resources is likely banking on Christopher Luxon’s fast-track process to side-step proper scrutiny of its Taranaki seabed mining proposal by bailing out of the Environmental Protection Agency hearing ...
Kiwis Against Seabed mining today slammed Australian owned would-be seabed miner Trans Tasman Resources (TTR) for abandoning its application to the Environmental Protection Authority (EPA) to mine the seabed of the South Taranaki Bight. The company ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Katie Attwell, Associate Professor, School of Social Sciences, The University of Western Australia Ground Picture/Shutterstock Months after COVID vaccines were introduced in 2021, governments and private organisations mandated them for various groups. Health and aged care workers were among the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Dzurak, Scientia Professor Andrew Dzurak, CEO and Founder of Diraq, UNSW Sydney Diraq For decades, the pursuit of quantum computing has struggled with the need for extremely low temperatures, mere fractions of a degree above absolute zero (0 Kelvin or ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne A national Essential poll, conducted March 20–24 from a sample of 1,150, gave the Coalition a 50–44 lead including undecided, a reversal ...
The Taxpayers’ Union has today made a formal request under the Regulations of the People’s Republic of China on Open Government Information () for information held about how New Zealand Members of Parliament are spending taxpayer ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Robert Nelson, Honorary Principal Fellow, The University of Melbourne A Byzantine depiction of the Eucharist in Saint Sophia Cathedral, Kyiv.Jacek555/Wikimedia Commons, CC BY-SA A nasty quarrel arose in the 11th century over what kind of bread should be used in holy ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Patrick Hesp, Professor, Flinders University Patrick Hesp In some parts of Australia, coastal dunes are retreating from the ocean at an alarming rate, as waves carve up the beach and wind blows the sand inland. But coastal communities are largely ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Luke Heemsbergen, Senior Lecturer, Digital, Political, Media, Deakin University With an impressive 60% of the US smartphone market, Apple is undeniably big, but not a clear monopoly. Yet, years of innovation by Apple have effectively given the company its own exclusive ...
Whether you’re facing layoffs or are just an emotional junior staffer, it’s always a good idea to scout out a good crying place before you need it. It’s an incredibly hard time for Wellington. Across the city, thousands of public servants are hearing tough news about redundancies and layoffs. Government ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By James Miller-Jones, Professor, Curtin University Nuclear explosions on a neutron star feed its jets. Danielle Futselaar and Nathalie Degenaar, Anton Pannekoek Institute, University of Amsterdam, CC BY-SA How fast can a neutron star drive powerful jets into space? The answer, it ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Daryl Adair, Associate Professor of Sport Management, University of Technology Sydney Earlier this week, independent MP Andrew Wilkie accused the AFL of conducting “off the books” illicit drug testing to identify players using substances of abuse, then inappropriately withdrawing them from matches ...
The Government’s announcement that it will scrap plans for a vast marine sanctuary around the Kermadec Islands is ‘shameful’ and will make it impossible for Aotearoa New Zealand to meet its international commitments, says the World Wide Fund for Nature ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Quiggin, Professor, School of Economics, The University of Queensland Shutterstock The federal government has bowed to pressure from the car industry, announcing it will relax proposed emissions rules for utes and vans and delay enforcement of the new standards ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Suzanne Rutland, Professor Emerita, University of Sydney In his latest book, Jewish Life in Medieval Spain, Jonathan Ray focuses on the tumult of the 14th century in Spain – a time of the plague, civil strife and war between the two largest ...
While creating a slate of world-class shows, Whakaata Māori also developed a generation of world-class creatives. Television is an odd word. It mixes the Ancient Greek and Latin languages, and its most literal meaning is “far-off sight”. In the contemporary and living language of te reo Māori, “whakaata” as a ...
Yesterday the UN Security Council passed a resolution demanding an immediate ceasefire in Israel’s war on Gaza. This significant step and the deteriorating humanitarian situation in Gaza prompted an urgent debate in the New Zealand Parliament. Leader ...
The Government’s decision to reduce access to continuous glucose monitors (CGM) not only threatens the lives of children with type 1 diabetes and increases the potential for ‘Dead in Bed’ syndrome, but also threatens the health of their parents an ...
Apples are available year-round, but the wide variety on offer involves intensive scientific research – and large-scale commercialisation. What’s beautiful, red, sweet and crunchy? Tony Martin’s favourite kind of apple: Sassy. The CEO of apple and pear breeding organisation Prevar, Martin’s fondness for Sassy represents professional success as well as ...
Family violence specialist service Shine is calling on employers to stop asking for proof of domestic violence in order for employees to access domestic violence leave. The call comes five years after the introduction of the Domestic Violence ...
The Deputy Chairperson of the Finance and Expenditure Committee is calling for public submissions on the Budget Policy Statement 2024. The Budget Policy Statement 2024 (BPS) sets out the Government's priorities for the 2024 Budget. It explains the approach ...
Brutal government spending cuts that will see the size of the Ministry for Pacific Peoples slashed by 40% will hit Pasifika communities hard, the PSA says. The Ministry has told staff that it is seeking voluntary redundancies, and to redeploy and reassign ...
I live with five people I mostly love, but our different ideas about generosity are starting to really irk me.Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzDear Hera,This is a bit of a random one but here goes. I’m 22 and work an OK job (OK meaning I get paid ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Maria Nicholas, Senior Lecturer in Language and Literacy Education, Deakin University Earlier this month, the New South Wales government announced it would roll out programs for gifted students in every public school in the state. This comes amid concerns gifted school ...
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“I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!”
Sue Moroney’s dismal, delusional anti-fluoridation rave
Backbenchers, Prime TV, Wednesday 12 June 2013, 10:30 p.m.
Hosts: Wallace Chapman, Damian Christie
Politicians: Sue Moroney (Labour), Simon O’Connor (National), Richard Prosser (New Zealand First)
If you can bear the unedifying spectacle of “wretchedness o’ercharg’d”, then please watch as Labour List lightweight Sue Moroney, in an incredible display of sheer purblind obstinacy, incites the crowd to outraged jeering, and drives the normally unflappable Wallace Chapman to completely lose his rag.
First topic for tonight is the Edward Snowden story…
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him?
SUE MORONEY: [face frozen in rictus grin] Ahhhhhhhhhhh. [extended pause] No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: [shrugs shoulders, raises eyebrows in disbelief] Okay then. Do you feel sorry for Peter Dunne?
SUE MORONEY: Ohhhhh, look, he’s a minister. There are expectations we have of a minister, and he failed.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you?
SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!
For a moment, a stunned and ominous silence fills the Backbenchers Tavern; then the slight titter of derisive laughter, and also a slight percussive sound: the Labour Party supporters gnashing their teeth in mortification. Wallace Chapman licks his lips, shakes his head in disbelief, then he decides to see if he can get someone to talk sense….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: All right, I’ll ask all three of our politicians: Edward Snowden, hero or villain?
RICHARD PROSSER: Ooooh…depends where you stand. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay. Short and sweet. Sue Moroney?
SUE MORONEY: [significant pause] I’d like a lot more information. But I guess he’s a hero.
SIMON O’CONNOR: He’s a young man who made a rash decision. He hasn’t thought it through.
Next topic is FLUORIDATION. Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program. It surely makes sense, therefore, that a parliamentary backbencher from Hamilton should be on Backbenchers tonight. Surely. Unfortunately, as we have already seen by her confused and contradictory statements about the Edward Snowden case, this particular backbencher makes little or no sense at all….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: What do you think of that decision, Sue Moroney?
SUE MORONEY: [significant pause] I stand with Labour. We need a proper government inqu—-
SIMON O’CONNOR: No, no, no, no, no! That’s not good enough, Sue! I ask you to give me an answer and you say nothing that makes sense. This is a bit of a shocker, Sue!
SUE MORONEY: Research and evidence! I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!
SIMON O’CONNOR: The evidence is beyond doubt. There are SCORES of peer-reviewed studies in academic journals.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Richard Prosser, what do you think about fluoride in the water supply?
RICHARD PROSSER: I have to say I would be personally against it.
SIMON O’CONNOR: [drily, to Prosser] I’ll send you the articles in Nature and by the government’s Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman tomorrow.
Chapman has obviously prepared seriously for this, to the extent of bringing on Doctor JONATHAN BROADBENT, an expert in dental epidemiology from Otago University. Dr Broadbent explains that there is no rational debate about it, and that there has already been a major inquiry on the matter: the major New Zealand study on the effects of fluoridation was completed in 1971. He speaks for a considerable time, and then it’s time to confront the List MP from Hamilton with a cold dose of reality….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: He makes sense, Sue Moroney, you don’t.
SUE MORONEY: Well if you base your decision on forty-year-old science—-
At this point, there is sustained jeering from the audience. Cries of “Shame!” and “Ignorant!” can be heard.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: We know where you stand. You stand with Richard Prosser.
SUE MORONEY: [nonplussed expression on face] Ummmm….We need an inquiry!
More angry, contemptuous hooting and jeering.
SIMON O’CONNOR: Here we are again, Labour asking for another inquiry.
SUE MORONEY: [rictus grin now replaced by angry scowl] Well, FORTY-YEAR-OLD SCIENCE! Do you want to put your faith in forty-year-old science?
Hooting and jeering and derisive laughter continues….
The rest of the show consists of poor, awkward Damian Christie circulating round groups of drinkers, poking a microphone into their midst and trying to get them to answer his extraordinarily inane questions. As usual, this is an excruciatingly painful watch.
Good on Snowden. And what a compliment he has paid to the people of Hong Kong. I am jealous.
On the other hand in an unedifying mirror image of Sue Maroney’s sick comments, a Beijing Communist Party toady calls for Snowden’s deportation:
Yay! Team Edward
Boo! Toady politicians
Maroney. You suck. You are a disgrace to your party.
Fortunately for us. As in New Zealand, in Hong Kong, mainstream politicians are not the only ones who get to have a say. (Marking Hong Kong out as a democratic stand out. And also as a good choice by Snowden as a safe haven.)
Any politician that makes a statement in direct opposition to Edward Snowden’s brave act of conscience, as Maroney has done, does not belong in any political party that claims it stands for democracy.
But not according to “Ask me something that matters” Maroney.
Is Maroney parroting the Labour Party line, here?
Is Maroney speaking for the Labour Party, or for herself?
Why is David Shearer so silent on the spying scandals that have rocked New Zealand and the world?
Can Shearer be trusted to take over John Key’s role as minister for the SIS and GCSB?
When it comes to spying on us: Will an incoming Labour administration under the Shearer gang be a seamless continuation of Business As Usual?
Will a Labour administration repeal the Act that has legalised criminal behavior by the GCSB?
Will law breaking by the SIS the GCSB and the police, continue to be covered up and excused, under a Labour administration as they have been under a National one?
Who are the 88?
Are they really a danger to us?
Will David Shearer as head of the SIS honour OIA requests and release the names of the 88 New Zealanders illegally spied on? So that we, and they, can decide if the illegal intrusion on their privacy was justified?
Will New Zealand be a safe haven for prisoners of conscience under a Labour administration, no matter which country they hale from?
Maybe some Labour Party insiders might like to enlighten us?
That would be Hong Kong, territory of that bastion of free speech and democracy, the People’s Republic of China? Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to. Mind you, given he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does, I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
however, Google does not have powers to incarcerate you in Guantanamo Bay without trial, for no stated reason. That seems to be an important difference.
Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to.
Sycophants and ideologically trustworthy servants of state power are not the ones who ever have to worry about having to flee state vengeance. You are safe, my friend.
…he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does
In view of your extensive form, it’s difficult to call this one, but I think that statement could be just about the stupidest thing you have ever written on this mostly excellent forum.
I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
Yes, the treatment of Julian Assange and Bradley Manning must have given comfort to all those who value liberty, human rights and justice. Oh yes.
100% right Jenny.Under Key NZ is little more than a vassal state of the U$. Why? Since Rogernomics we’ve bought into the Washington Consensus which is neoliberalism and privatisation and a horror of anything which is Socialist, even a simple mixed economy. Defence wise we’re locked in with Australia, the U$’s sheriff in the southern pacific, our subservience to the U$ is shown by having soldiers in Afghanistan. The greatest figure of South American politics the anti neoliberal Hugo Chavez, Key did not attend his funeral though he visited ex Pinochet Chile. To give asylum to Snowden would be a direct slap in the face to the U$ military hegemony, and our defence agreements with them, no politician in Labour or National would do that.
Without U$ military might in the Pacific there would be a huge power vacuum almost certainly filled by China. The Japanese would almost certainly have to develop nuclear weapons against North Korea and China as a deterrent.
That said we should still give Snowden asylum showing we’re not total toady bastards to U$ military and security dominance
I don’t think you need worry. The US is greatly expanding its presence in the Pacific and nothing we do will change that. Having said that we also want to keep both China and the US on side, while ensuring we do what is best for NZ.
That’s statecraft.
And the best way to do that is to declare our total neutrality – and then build up enough force to prevent an invasion.
There are many styles and kinds of invasion.
True. The ones we’re experiencing ATM are financial but I was speaking of direct invasion. To stop the financial invasion we’d also have to declare neutrality and then drop the Washington Consensus.
You Sir are a comedian par excellence. Monty Python eat your hat.
If you have a point, please feel free to share.
“Snowden Supporters Rally in Hong Kong
‘Arrest Obama, free Snowden’ protesters chant ”
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/06/15-1
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights
How about our own government spying on New Zealanders?
Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’, i should imagine even tho it doesn’t seem a topic to fire the imagination that there would have been ‘opposition’ to the mass uptake of fluoridation in the 70’s,
i have no strong view either way but would suggest that in the ‘stuffed shirt’ days of the 70’s the prevailing view of ‘science’ would have and has lead to a really nice little earner for chemical companies over many generations,
i havn’t heard of farming communities suffering any worse dental outcomes than ‘towny’ communities do they stuff their water tanks with fluoride…
Shit if 40 year old science is a problem what about those idiots that decided the earth was round, or that gravity caused things to fall.
That science is really old!
Point well made D Of Sssmith
DoS does ignore one factor. While the fact that the Earth is round hasn’t changed in 40 years, our understanding of medicine, biochemistry, physiology and human health has radically changed.
The harms caused by something like smoking or by pestcides like 245T for example…we know things now about detailed mechanisms that they barely suspected back then.
EDIT I see Bad12 beat me to it…
I wasn’t really ignoring it I as simply saying that the age of the science was irrelevant as to whether we trusted it.
New scientific discoveries may or may not change what we know.
We shouldn’t discount any science on the basis of age. That isn’t how science works.
You’re reading too much into what I intended.
Or indeed, the hundred year old science of heavier than air flight.
What nonsensical rationalisations these are. And from an Labour MP who by refusing to support safe haven for Edward Snowden, is supporting the crude and cruel hounding of this brave individual who courageously and at great personal cost has exposed to the public view, a level of intrusive state surveilence into US and other countries citizens engaged in by the US government that would make the East German Stasi blush.
What Chapman could have asked her was; Do you have any brains? To which this tory could have given the same answer.
With these sort of statements Sue Maroney shows she properly belongs in the National Party caucus, or the even more whacky ACT caucus. (If there ever was such a thing again).
This is the sort of smug dismissal I would normally expect to come from John Key. And not a Labour Party MP. How on earth did Sue Maroney get on the Labour list?
Jenny, your complaint about Moroney is based on what Moz claims she said. You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
Moroney, and Labour, want an independent enquiry to see whether fluoride is needed or not. That seems sensible given that the opposition to it seems to be reduced to ‘but, nazis!’
You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
You have already been exposed several times for your pettifogging and quibbling, but I see you are back at it. Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim as it would be if I had laboriously transcribed from a tape recording. But I got the key parts of that horrifyingly substandard performance absolutely right, and you know it.
I did not make up any of it—even in my most extravagantly satirical mood, I could not imagine anything as stupid and irresponsible as Sue Moroney came out with on Wednesday night.
“Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim …”
Thank you for confirming my point. Again.
“Thousands Of Companies Have Been Handing Over Your Personal Data To The NSA”
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/thousands-of-companies-have-been-handing-over-your-personal-data-to-the-nsa
Good on Snowden!
Point not so well made is my view, you are comparing the ‘science of nature’ with the ‘chemical science of man’,
The two are as different as chalk and cheese, the Earth is spherical because it is!!! that’s hardly based upon science and it was hardly science that someone at some point gained the means to sail out past the horizon and discover that it ain’t flat,
Ugly Truth in comment 2 links to some large scientific studies that debunk the fluoride myth…
On the contrary, what changes in population health & chemical science is the degree of accuracy, not the facts.
Hence the research about going for 0.7ppm rather than 0.75, as opposed to the range 40 years ag which was say 0.6-1.2ppm.
But the clear benefits of fluoridation were evident 60 years ago, no matter what UT thinks. His link in comment two was incorrect at point one and went downhill from there.
For example: “According to the NIDR’s statisticians, the study found an average difference of only 0.6 DMFS (Decayed Missing and Filled Surfaces) in the permanent teeth of children aged 5-17 residing in either fluoridated or unfluoridated areas (Brunelle and Carlos, 1990). This difference is less than one tooth surface! There are 128 tooth surfaces in a child’s mouth.“. Let’s say 200,000 children: that’s 120,000 teeth that require additional treatment such as fillings, capping or extraction before the age of 17 (not to mention the next 60 years).
Farming families are generally issued fluoride tabs, we were. Also did not have much access to soft drink and lollies :-), made up for it when we left home.
Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’…
Nonsense. Moroney had no point to make, because she has never read anything about it, nor thought about it.
Whatever LEC in Hell selected her should should have all of its members struck off immediately.
Nor had i until i got onto the link in comment 2, which shows that there is a fairly large amount of study by reputable scientists which paint the depositing of fluoride into the water system in a not very favorable light,
i may be wrong but i see Sue Moroney as part of the well meaning middle class who may not have too many clues but are (slightly) left leaning,
The Labour Party is chocka with such people it’s why they can come up with such a grand idea as shoe-horning the children of the middle class onto the ‘property ownership ladder’ whilst remaining eerily SILENT on the economic fate of the Mene Mene’s of this world…
As a Labour man, some of these Labour MPs do make me cringe; guess that is why Nash declined a certain cup of tea. (high-lobe Cam).
I agree RT – I frequently find myself asking (myself): Who the fuck ARE these people?, and how the hell did this happen?
I know the answer, but I also wonder WHY we keep empowering them.
The Labour Party’s worst enemy (enema even) has always been apathy. But the buggers just KEEP subscribing to the doctor’s prescription – even when it’s giving them the runs.
Who the hell is advising them (I’ll send the boys around – half of them a mates of Mallard anyway)?
An hour or so on, and after a sesh with the proctologist, I’m more the wiser and in no need now of a dainty little dinner party anyway.
The difference between National and Labour is that Nat members strut around asking anyone that will listen “Don’t you know who I am?”, whilst members of Labour ask themselves and anyone that will listen – “who the fuck are “WE”?’
Well I’ve just struck her off my dinner party list! Or maybe not. I’ll discuss my proctologist with her, instead of my psychiatrist – I’m sure she’ll be able to give me some deep and meaningful advice. She’ll probably advise I need a second (perhaps even 3rd) opinion.
“Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program”
Don’t beat around the bush, Morrisey. Tell us what you really think.
50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
Dr. Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University
http://www.slweb.org/50reasons.html
Makes a change from hamilton council doing the bullying.
@ Ugly
Having you oppose fluoridation seems one of the best reasons to support it (I guess those strip-club girls don’t care too much about the state of your teeth if you’re bulging at the wallet area).
However, I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply. I doubt there would be that many (a similar, or lesser, proportion than those who signed Hamilton’s failed referendum against it). Plus it could be used as an emergency back-up for the scientifically literate if there was a disruption to the normal water works.
Read the link at (2), there’s plenty of science that does not support fluoridation…
Crap. A handful of obsessive rebels without a cause and chickenship councilors in election year have condemned thousands of high-deprivation children to the misery of excrutiatingly bad oral health and the downstream effects that will last all their lives. And if those same heroes get crook tomorrow, they’ll accept – in fact demand – without the tiniest murmur, every other advance of modern medical science. Selfish, hypocritical, cretins.
+1
+1
regular brushing, morning and night, plenty of ‘sterilization’ over the years, and fluoridated water; only one extraction at 45. (though a few ‘knocked about’; wrong place, wrong time).
😎
Lolz, i have got a face full of those wrong place wrong time ones…
LOLZ, obviously didn’t bother to read the ‘science’ contained in comment 2, suppose the ‘scientists’ involved in such studies,(some of them of multi-year duration) are all selfish, hypocritical cretins as well,
It would seem that the consensus of opposition to fluoride in water is that fluoride when applied orally via a toothpaste has some positive effect while adding such to drinking water is dubious at best and if a high enough dose of the stuff is continually added to drinking water there are negative effects becoming apparent…
bad12 if you remember that this debate is now not one of science and rational discourse, it is one of belief systems and world views, it will make more sense. Part of a civic religion in other words.
That’s why you are seeing the emotional polemics, condemning our children to hell, I mean, in the form of a lifetime of decaying rotten teeth. You are messing with the transmitted orthodoxy.
It appears that one’s worship of Uncle Sam is a must in the fluoride ‘debate’, it appears that ALL of non-English speaking Europe has now ceased to apply fluoride to water supplies,
This is obviously a plot by non-English speaking dentists from all over Europe who can see mountains of money to be made from all them kids with bad teeth…
Not Quite.
And then there’s the issue of salt or milk fluoridation as alternative avenues.
Good ideas those, allowing people to choose to use fluoridated salt or milk.
Possibly not as effective for poor people or maybe those who aren’t intimately aware of their micro-nutrient needs, though. Look at the price of higher-calcium milk, for example.
@ak
“Crap”
No, it is actual scientific fact. Here’s the first one from the list:
Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride.
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
“But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.”
I’d agree with the second* but would like to see a citation for the first. Modern fluoridation of water happens in places where humans generally eat diets that harm oral health. Are you suggesting that humans that don’t eat like that are better off with fluoridated water too? I haven’t looked to see what the research is saying on this but am curious if you have.
* to an extent. We know that some people don’t keep their teeth for life, or have poor oral health, even when they drink fluoridated water all that time.
Nope.
All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.
Large numbers of advanced western countries have decided that fluoridation doesn’t justify mandatory use, and several have even withdrawn it from their populations after having had it for many years.
I’m not aware of any evidence which shows that children’s teeth in those countries are significantly worse off after the withdrawal of water fluoridation.
Do a lit search on Ovid over the weekend, did you?
Sorry, but “Colonial Viper isn’t aware of it” isn’t much in the way of “evidence”.
How about “McFlock isn’t aware of any such evidence either”
Better? 🙂
True, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Whereas evidence of benefit is actual evidence.
There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
yeah pretty sure it is
but as the Israeli Minister of Health says…why are you fluoridating all this water when only 2% of it will be drunk
because 2% of it will be drunk.
There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.
McFlock …
16 June 2013 at 10:30 pm
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
McFlock, what key words would you use for a search? I did a quick google and found the following, but not much otherwise.
The best available evidence from studies following withdrawal of water fluoridation indicates that caries prevalence increases, approaching the level of the low fluoride group. Again, however, the studies were of moderate quality (level B), and limited quantity. The estimates of effect could be biased due to poor adjustment for the effects of potential confounding factors.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fluoride/documents/crdreport18.pdf
(sept 2000)
LOL
Note: it appears from a quick read that fluoride also changes the behaviour of bone cells through various poorly understood signalling mechanisms. I wonder what other cell signalling mechanisms it affects.
@Weka – not really my field, but Scandinavia has a pretty good history of epi research so I’d be surprised if they didn’t do something. Beyond the obvious (“fluoride”, etc) I’m not sure where to start.
I find that keyword searches can still overload one with results that are frequently only tangentially related to the actual area of interest – try title word searches as well if keywords bring up nothing useful.
@CV
OMG, you’ve discovered that a chemical might have detectable effects! At what doses? Links?
“All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.”
Fair enough. Let me rephrase your earlier comment then,
from –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
to –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth if their oral health is destroyed in other ways and they don’t have fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
Myself, I would also add –
And addressing the reasons why good oral health is not promoted in NZ
at a preventative level is something we should be doing, including looking at meta issues of poverty, education, and whether mass medication is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff
“Mass medication” like iodised salt in bread and fluoride in water is prevention, not an ambulance. Even in the most equitable and civilised society, I would expect some initiatives along those lines. Because on the flipside of “personal choice” is “information overload” and “some people will have no freaking idea either way”.
Although I agree with the rest of your addendum.
A society that says we won’t ban soft drinks etc in schools or lollies at supermarket check outs, cannot then claim that regulating water fluoridation is prevention. It’s medication instead of prevention. True prevention is making sure that everyone can afford to eat well and has access to healthy foods, and is making sure that knowing how to eat well has the same value as reading and writing. Prevention also doesn’t see tooth decay as separate from diabetes or heart disease.
We are so far away from a prevention model we don’t even recognise what prevention is.
Well said.
It’s still too often fighting fire with fire.
@ Weka,
behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.
Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.
“behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.”
It’s not the logic behind my thinking. What I think is that if we promoted and practiced true prevention, then the rates of tooth decay would be much lower, and the fluoridation debate would look very different.
“Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.”
Sure. So we can educate (and legislate) about smoking and lots of people will quit, but some won’t. Of course we can’t really know what is going on there until we deal with poverty and the stresses of modern life too (both powerful influences on health).
But let’s say in some mythical world, we did actual health promotion in a meaningful way, poverty was drastically reduced, and people had genuine choices around how to live their lives. Some people still choose to eat lots of sugar and most of them get holes in their teeth. What percentage of the population would that need to be to warrant fluoridation of the water supply?
I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).
I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).
I would say that inclusion of a substance in the water supply (or staples like milk or bread) is the best course of action if it has a demonstrable benefit for some, does not cause demonstrable harm to others at the supplied levels, does not affect the appearance and quality of the product, and is more effective/efficient at reaching people in need than other intervention strategies.
So no, if a substance that didn’t adversely affect people was included in the water supply to help other people keep their feet, I would not be opposed to it.
Frankly I don’t get the big deal – being around a car or logburner is much more hazardous than fluoridated water.
Yes, it’s a balancing of rights to a certain degree (although, as you show, those worked up enough about flouridation would also have other issues with the municipal water supply). Excuse me for getting terse, but in the cases of folate in bread and water fluoridation, it’s the right to pretend to be able to control micronutrient intake (have you tested your bore for fluoride or other non-H2O substances? Down to less than one part per million?) against the right of other people to live healthier lives.
Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.
It looks to me like less than 5% of people have access to naturally occurring fluoride in water.
In the UK for instance wikipedia says 0.5M people receive naturally fluoridated water.
Oops, its the emotionally charged, we know which science is the righteous science, brigade, out in full force!
Think about the children, they cry, while dismissing the opportunity to discuss potential harm caused by the mass medicating!
Brilliant attitude!
Can’t cope with the facts, eh Pasupial? Have some more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GX0s-4AyWfI
@ Ugly
The facts I can cope with fine. It’s pusillanimous hysteria and delusion that I have a problem with…
@Bad12
That’s not science – that’s a manipulative list from someone that regards pseudosciences such as; naturopathy, and chiropracty, as valid. I have no time for Paul Conman – link to someone with scientific credibility please. Here’s a link for you in the meantime:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/02/anti-fluoridation-crankery-how-1960s/
Let me know when you can comprehend the the difference, Pasupial.
Fluoride is a poison. It is a roughly as toxic as lead or arsenic, and it accumulates in the body. Fluorosis causes bone hardening, which makes osteoporosis more hazardous, and fluorine can cause loss of IQ and docility.
Fluoride was find used by the Nazis to keep prisoners docile and manageable, Later it was introduced into US water supplies under the watch of Andrew Mellon, a Nazi supporter and eugenicist.
So what? Fluoride in water is not at poisonous levels and your repeated Godwins make no difference to the argument.
His point is that the amounts of fluoride added to the water supply while not toxic in themselves have the ability to build up in the body bonding with other metallic elements as the body has not the means to expel an over-supply of fluorides…
I’d like a link about fluoride compounds accumulating in the body tissues or joints manner of heavy metals, rather than simply being consumed at higher levels than they can be excreted.
It’s a claim UT has made repeatedly without providing any evidence, and I suspect has similar provenance to their Jacques Cousteau “quote”, which turned out to be bunk.
Godwin’s law no longer applies.
did thecourt of the hundred say so?
No, reason said so, McFuckwit.
Well, you said it so it must be true
Hey UT, I’m sure you’re also against dihydrogen monoxide?
Here are some facts about it:
* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
There are many more problems with it, too, but that’s just a short list to give you a taste.
Would you be surprised to learn that DHMO is found in all public drinking water, at concentrations that can lead to all of the above problems? The Nazis also made extensive use of DHMO in their concentration camps. Surely we should ban it too?
Excessive amounts of DHMO have stopped me mowing the lawns this morning. Totally buggered my golf plans for this arvo too. Ban it now!
lovely fiddling on the roof though.
Also produced devastating explosions under appropriate conditions.
Oxygen by itself is nasty corrosive stuff.
Carcinogenic
The hydrogen bit is explosive. Remember the Hindenburg.
Ahhh that’s a whole interesting debate there in itself 🙂
and then there’s the weed.
Lanthanide, A fish in DHMO will die from oxygen deprivation.
There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.
“There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.”
Nor a shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between what the nazis did as experiments and torture, vs what health professionals do under informed science for the betterment of public health.
You have missed the point entirely, Lanthanide.
The Nazis didn’t give fluoride to prisoners as an experiment or as a form of torture, and health professionals were never originally informed of the actual science, they were simply fed the Carnegie-Mellon propaganda.
“In Australia, the Dental Health & Research Foundation, which has such names as Colgate, Kellogg and other ex-Farben associates listed among it’s ‘governors and contributors’, has been irreverently but accurately dubbed “the Fluoride Mafia”. Closely allied with this Sydney University ‘Foundation’, in its printed promotional claims for fluorides and fluoridation, is ‘Foundation 41’. Unfortunately, the data of the “thorough investigations” said to have been carried out by the Foundation into fluoride, its benefits and its hazards, have never been made available, despite numerous appeals. A recent ABC Science Show’s examination of the scientific integrity of Foundation 41 may explain the elusive data. America is literally bursting at the seams with such Foundations, but amongst the earlier names were the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation and the Ford Foundation. It is necessary to mention these specifically because they were the first Foundations to make grants in the population (control) field and the Carnegie family merged with the Mellon family Institute to create the Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh in 1967.”
http://www.fluoridationfacts.com/education/propaganda/870000_perkins.htm
@ Ugly
If only your passion for this nonsense could be turned to some cause more productive than endangering the health of Aotearoan communities.
At 2.2 I say that: “I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply.” I was going to further suggest that this might also be an advantage for attracting European tourists, but am now starting to think that might be a very bad idea.
If the anti-fluoridation mob were to be given power over a large vat of water in every town; how long would it before they started drowning witches?
Bill Ralston on The Nation. The Nation is providing an ignorant and mildly intelligent man a way bigger pedestal for his opinions than he deserves.
Russel Norman…should be our next Prime Minister, excellent!
Thankful that I passed on The Nation; Bill Ralston, sigh.
fell back to sleep watching Q&A, susan wood makes me almost want paul holmes back…i wonder what selection criteria TVNZ use to get Q&A hosts?
and Fran O Sullivan’s grin is really scarey….what the hell is she grinning about.
This story intrigued me because the principal says
What has happened around communication at that school – I can’t understand why any issues couldn’t be raised with the principal instead of going to the union.
and he said
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890829
A karakia by definition is spiritual and that is the point of it – sure it is in Te reo Māori and is good practice for pronunciation but to take away the cultural context is not correct imo.
This is recited where I work part time and doesn’t compromise to my godlessness.
Whakataka te hau ki te uru,
Whakataka te hau ki te tonga.
Kia mākinakina ki uta,
Kia mātaratara ki tai.
E hī ake ana te atākura he tio,
he huka, he hauhunga.
Haumi e! Hui e! Tāiki e!
http://folksong.org.nz/whakataka_te_hau/
I love that karakia Joe – thanks for reminding me.
NZ children need an introduction to a spiritual practice. And a karakia seems perfect for the job.
I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.
If there’s actual education/discussion around why they do the karakia, awesome. But the original article doesn’t tell us that.
yep. agree.
Just so we can keep some balance in this, the Abrahamic faiths/culture are the culture of Tauiwi are they not and adopted by the Pacific cultures.
Well, so is the alphabet. But it has been widely adopted and accepted by all. What was the exact point you were making?
So the NZEI is going to encourage that the activity is given some educational context? Well, that would be fine. If that’s what they are intending.
“I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.”
I would expect an intermediate school in Auckland to have the cultural context spread throughout the curriculum and day to day goings on of the school (as it should be).
The other schools quoted in the article appear to have developed use of karakia as part of cultural practice within the school over time.
More basically, there is a place for traditions and rituals in our society. Might as well pick good ones for the young ones.
Beautiful karakia, I hadn’t seen that before. The explanation in the link is really good – showing not just the translation and structure of karakia, but the cultural differences, and how karakia is about taking us into relationship with the world (which is actually how some Christians and other religions use prayer, for anyone thinking it’s just about having an imaginary friend).
“Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
This is recited where some people work, too, and it hasn’t compromised with their ‘godlessness’ either.
Interestingly, it was hearing that prayer, and the farce that follows it often, that sparked my interest in watching Parliament live. Major Frank Burns.
Communication Breakdown, all round.
One of the many unsung roles of union reps – a worker has a concern and (for whatever reason) doesn’t feel comfortable approaching the employer about it themselves. Sorting out issues in the workplace so bad feelings don’t fester and harm the organisation.
Did simon bridges get a nice new 32ml cancer unit for Tauranga for being a good boy?Funny to see paula bennett holding the high moral ground about private info being sent a person who is supposedly blackmailing her Dept in a bid to have her child returned to her, when she herself blackmailed two beneficiaries, who challenged her policies, by threatening publication of their private and personal details. Which she in fact did. Deeply hypocritical.
Cancer, heart disease, diabetes and aged-care is where the money is being thrown.
Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes
Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, and cancer is no great respecter of ethnicity – methinks you have scored an own goal.
Ethnicity? Where did I make any assumption on the ethnicity of the comfortable middle classes?
Seems like a racist own goal there yourself, Pop.
Looking at the available poverty and health statistics, I see nothing racist in my assumptions.
“Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, “
Given that diabetes and heart disease are huge health problems world-wide, don’t you think there might be something other than ethnicity in play?
“Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.
I reckon spending money to to prevent as much heart disease and Type-2 diabetes as possible – to enable people to work, and care for themselves, to reduce sickness and invalid benefits and reduce the need for expensive heart surgeries, dialysis for kidney failure and amputations due to poor circulation might be a good public health spend for taxpayers of whatever age or class.
that is revealing about the incidence among the young rosy. You may not have used the term ‘public health’ correctly; this funding is likely to be directed to secondary and tertiary interventions.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough – I meant the Public Health spend to prevent heart disease and Type-2 diabetes. These may later require secondary and tertiary interventions once the disease are established.
““Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.”
Yes, but I suspect that CV’s point was that the money follows middle class, middle aged concerns. In this case, the fact that the low socio-economic classes benefit is a side effect.
/cynicism.
Indeed. The most consistent voters are those who are 40+.
Yeah, I got the idea and would have let it go if it was about hip replacements and the like.
The Sensible Sentencing Trust is not, and never was, a charity
Sunday with Chris Laidlaw, Radio NZ National, Sunday 16 June 2013
Main topic for discussion today is the deregistration of charities. First up, an interesting interview with the former director of CORSO, a real charity which was effectively destroyed by John Key’s hero Robert Muldoon in the late 1970s. Then, like night follows day, just as I predicted to my “companion”, this was followed by a respectful interview with….yes, you guessed it!…the utterly despicable Garth “The Knife” McVicar, Imperial Grand Dragon of the knife-killing advocates, the S.S. Trust.
Appalled I flicked off the following email….
Dear Chris,
Jeremy Rose interviewed the S.S. Trust’s Garth McVicar as if he and his organization were a benevolent organization trying to do good work. In fact, the S.S. Trust is the very opposite of benevolent. When a teenage boy was chased down on a Manurewa street and stabbed to death in 2008, McVicar and his organization led a public campaign of defamation of the dead boy and heaped abuse and scorn on his parents and his wider family.
To compound this, he championed the man who had killed the boy as an “upstanding New Zealander.” Far from moderating these extreme views, McVicar amplified them in his book, entitled with brazen cynicism Justice: Speaking up for Crime’s Silent Victims.
McVicar continually portrays himself as a victim of official discrimination, as well as a victims’ rights advocate. He is neither. And his organization is not, and never was, a charity unless that word has been drained of meaning.
Yours in disgust at the continual publicity afforded the S.S. Trust,
Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point
————————————————-
Hopefully Chris Laidlaw will read it out. He did read out THIS one that I sent him exactly two months ago….
Garth McVicar should be declared persona non grata; why is he still being treated with deference?
Dear Chris,
In the lead item on this morning’s Mediawatch, Colin Peacock spoke of Garth McVicar’s Sensible Sentencing Trust as if it were a victims’ advocacy organization.
The facts are somewhat different.
In 2008, after a teenage boy was chased down and stabbed to death on the street in Manurewa, Garth McVicar was loud in his condemnation—of the dead boy. McVicar spoke sympathetically and supportively about the killer, and he went on to lead an extraordinarily brutal media campaign of character assassination of the victim and his family.
In his recent authorized biography, McVicar reiterated his support for the killer.
I am disturbed that Mediawatch, and indeed Radio New Zealand National, still treats this vicious and cruel person with respect.
Yours sincerely,
Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point
2007: which leading American politician spoke out most strongly against spying on ordinary US citizens?
Here is the quote:
“This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-15/who-said-it-administation-acts-violating-civil-liberties-way-enhance-our-security
His earlier positions, even as President, have been re-played on the television news.
That McCain sure is a Warhawk; interesting that the USS Forrestal fire was in ’67.
Ahhh I didn’t know about that accident
Ahhh I didn’t know about that accident
Rumours of Snowden’s exaggeration have been exaggerated:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-admits-listening-to-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants/
And many of those “low ranking analysts” are not even govt employees, they are private sector consultants like Snowden.
Basically the whole issue has moved beyond that of simple spin; when it comes to matters this important the authorities feel that they have to lie, for our own good.
The only thing that surprises me is that a US politician would be so niave, and has clearly not read the Patriot Act and considered its implications.
The author of the Patriot Act, Rep Sensenbrenner, regards how his Act is being used today as an outright abuse of the law, and says that the Act was designed to prevent exactly this kind of “dragnet” surveillance. He is actively campaigning in the House on this.
Interesting Pop. What part of the Patriot Act are you talking about?
I ask because it’s a really long Act, I’m surprised you’ve read it to be honest. The relevant Act here would appear to be FISA though:
That’s how they grab everything (yet to be tested in any court AFAIA), it isn’t deemed collected until someone looks at the data, (another ‘interpretation’ of an Act that is yet to be tested in the courts). From there (having it on file) analysts seem to be have been given authority to look at what’s been grabbed without a warrant under FISA, or anything else. So where in the Patriot Act is this made legal, seeing it would appear to be in breach of the 4th amendment? Please enlighten me.
I’ll give a a hint, start at section 200, look for language that authorises warrantless looking at intercepted comms.
Pay close attention to 204. Hint: FISA or GTFO
Here’s a hint, look at Title II of the Patriot Act, specifically Sections 303, 206, 209, 212, 213, 214, 218, and 220, and think like a cunning lawyer
Come on Pop.
Spill. You’ve got some theory that you reckon shuld be obvious to everyone, and yet no one is citing it as justification. Head of NSA has denied over the years that they are doing what you claim is justified by the Act.
I’m interested in what you think, care to share it?
Particularly, I’m interested in where you think these sections create a gap in which you can get out from under FISA. I’m not seeing it.
This is the best mainstream in depth report I’ve seen so far, oddly no one seems to have picked up on your theory Pop, whatever it is. This report details Bush era legal types threatening to resign over metadata gathering, far less than what you allege people would have to be naive to think isn’t going on.
Perhaps you should get in touch with someone.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-surveillance-architecture-includes-collection-of-revealing-internet-phone-metadata/2013/06/15/e9bf004a-d511-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html
Here’s a good example of a typical horror story of Privatisation in the U$K.
Thames Water had been set up with the taxpayer’s commonwealth but under the neoliberal madness of Thatcher and the profit mad greedies following it’s been prvatised. On a turnover of over a billion pounds they made a profit of half a billion which they don’t pay tax on as they’re registered in the Carribean somewhere ! 🙁 ! people are complaining about water being too expensive and they’re getting sewage contaminated water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSrhx_1Kt0c
Her Royal Highness, Patti Smith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE2qTPWG_Lo
The UK is toast in my opinion. Labour and the Conservatives are basically the same and seem to be equally dedicated in razing the UK to the ground, in the name of neo liberalism. Sadly things won’t improve in the UK, eventually the UK will have the same inequality and poverty as places like India.
KC
100% right! It’s shocking!
From Istanbul.
http://gezipark.nadir.org/index_eng.html
joe90
The young people of Turkey are rejecting the corporate fascism islam tainted of neoliberalism and market tyranny. Profit and money more important than people.
#1MilyonBugunTaksime. (1MillionToTaksimToday)
edit:
https://translate.google.com/
– chemicals in the water cannons
https://twitter.com/Donboloski/status/346225299664564224/photo/1
https://twitter.com/berkysnmz/status/346226097635090432/photo/1
https://twitter.com/Besiktasliyizzz/status/344376793073070081/photo/1
– buses to transport AKP supporters to rally?
https://twitter.com/ozanaktas_sbf/status/346225840654262272/photo/1
Nice.
https://twitter.com/Hurriyet/status/346233312760696832/photo/1
http://www.jenixbibergazi.com/en/subpro.asp?id=7
Photo stream of the protests in Turkey.
http://lexicalgap.com.au/occupygezi/
New Zealand not pedalling those trade rick-shaws fast enough
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890893
not enough Mandarins in the salad.
Baby-Boomers loading the Gen Y up with debt
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10890779
Love Bites.
Blogging Handbrakes
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890802
oooh, Dr. Naughty
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890813
“the insidious creep of inefficiency” doing the rounds.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890800
in NZ Hospitals.
The ol’ Elder Abuse; reports tip of the ice-berg.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890751
better the Devil you know.
Good response from Marama and The Greens to the latest from labour
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/06/16/xenophobia-has-no-place-in-ikaroa-rawhiti/
I hope this pathetic attempt to terrorise is treated with the contempt it deserves by voters.
What never seems to be addressed is what happens if, and likely, when Maori cease to even be the largest minority in Aotearoa
You mean when most NZers are Polynesian (Maori and PI)? That’s going to happen within a few generations.
Pacific Islanders are not tangata whenua and I find your lumping them together to be odd
Tangata whenua will continue to fight for their right to equality as guaranteed in the Treaty and as the indigenous people of these islands, and those opposed will continue to oppose it. That is what has, is, and will, continue to happen until equality is achieved imo.
I’m not greatly in favour of increasing general immigration to NZ, so was pleased to see this from Davidson
“Rather than banning all migrant workers, the Green Party would support a review of the special permit process that seasonal workers come in on to fill so-called labour shortages”
Kim Hill interviewing Sibel Edmonds:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2558757/sibel-edmonds-whistle-blowing
Solid interview by Kim Hill, but it mainly covers Edmonds’ background with the FBI, not her more recent work on Gladio-B and the Syria angle. Some nuggets were Edmonds’ accounts of the FBI’s lack of accountability, rewarding of unlawful behaviour and post 9/11 contact with Ayman al-Zawahiri. Also good info on the US states secrets privilege, the US mainstream press withholding damaging material, and data collected by security agencies being held for blackmail purposes.
Looks like Kim Hill doesn’t know what due process is either.
The worst wild-fire in Colorado history
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10890898
it’s a Cisco Inferno, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine,
He drink whiskey, Poncho drink the wine
They rode the sunset, horse was made of steel
The outlaws had us pinned down at the fort
Cisco came in blastin’ drinkin’ port.
The largest ever flood on the Danube
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/europe/news/article.cfm?l_id=7&objectid=10889241
cost of flooding to Germany alone, 11B Euros, 55,000 people may need to be evacuated.
Down the Carpathian drain
Hi Rogue Trooper
Climate Change. We’re no longer in the relatively stable climate since the last ice age ended but are in a new climate of an open ended warming world in despite of which some places are getting colder i.e. UK. Arctic Ice cap retreat is causing that.
Note torrential rain in the Nelson area one woman killed by a slip,we’re getting it too.
Yes.
from te Newz;
Devoy smacks Peters’ race-card hand; “stigmatizing a population for his own benefit”.(even Fran concurs 🙂 ).
Morsi under pressure from hardline Sunni clerics to go to war with Syria.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Morsi-cuts-Egypts-Syria-ties-backs-no-fly-zone-316665
Despite best efforts (things that do not work) Child Abuse in New Zealand has risen by nearly a third in the last five years; 21 000 new cases last year, 4000 in state care, of which 21 children were subjected to further abuse by carers
“Horrific, we should be ashamed…a lot of policy written, yet a gap between policy and practice in this country”. – Judge Carolyn Henwood.
Robert Schlaifer on the THEORY – PRACTICE GAP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schlaifer
Bring to test as soon as possible a number of alternate designs-pick one that combined good characterictics with few developmental problems-then work intensely to develop it.
Now that should not be too difficult now, should it?
fyi, where is the evidence of water fluoridation having a positive effect? Curious. Bought a water distiller this week.
Doesn’t toothpaste do enough of a job on it’s own?
Are comments and posts on this server your your only source of information?
Right here, infused. And the best part is that you don’t have to pay for a pill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9pD_UK6vGU