Written By: notices and features - Date published: 6:30 am, June 16th, 2014 - 204 comments
Categories: open mike -
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“The richest 10 per cent of New Zealanders are wealthier than the rest of the population combined, according to figures cited by Oxfam NZ.”
So there it is, in black and white. But Bill English is still peddling the tired old trickle-down lie: “The best contribution the Government can make to support lower income families is to support a growing economy that provides more jobs and higher incomes.”
So whats new amirite? That in the starkest terms is the core of the Left Right divide, the old old debate about who gets what and why? And the continuation of the 10%ers domination is the starkest reminder that the “Centre” so beloved of the major parties is so easily bribed by “crumbs from the rich mans table” so long as they get first cut of the aforesaid “crumbs”.
In a nut shell the above is why I despise “centrist” politics.
Out of the top 10% it’s the 0.1% who run and own the nation
the other 9.9% are simply the paid professional lackeys, servants and careerists who enable that.
The Oxfam report is on the wealth gap. English is presumably talking about the income gap. The wealth gap is the major problem, with the housing bubble leading the way.
I do not object to the wealthy having their wealth … but wish they paid a fair share from the results of their ability to help those without the ability …. Thomas Piketty makes a good suggestion in his book IMO
I do not object to the wealthy having their wealth
I do as we can’t afford the rich.
So, let’s get rid of all of the nett tax payers? Who will fund my dole ?
You won’t need the dole, the government will provide you with a living wage job instead, building wind farms and railways.
I suspect that we’d get more taxes if we didn’t have the rich – about $5b dollars more in fact. And that’s without even changing the tax laws.
Have you read Picketty’s book?
He says National Debt would be quickly piad back so there would then be plenty for your dole Dumrse and all the other support programmes we believe in ….DTB is so mindset on the current situation that he cannot envisage where while covering everybody there is opportunity for those to improve on that if they have the opportunity and energy.
That fails to make any sense.
We need to stop valuing peoples worth to society and community by the mere dollars they pull in, to what they actually contribute to the lives of others in terms of learning and caring.
Radical concept, I know.
As opposed to what? Direct transfers whereby say 5 percent of the wealth of the top 10 percent is directly redistributed to the other 90 percent?
Not 5% of their wealth but 7% of their annual income with those at the bottom paying 0.5%
No, those ten percent shouldn’t have the level of wealth that they have in the first place as it’s detrimental for society.
It’s also very concentrated at the top, 1% having more than the bottom 70%.
As opposed to what? Direct transfers whereby say the work and wealth generated by 90% of the population is directly redistributed to the top 10% of the population, as it is now?
The entire wealth distribution structure in place at the moment is woeful and does not serve the needs of the New Zealand community. At all. It needs changing.
A flaw in the monetary system
There’s no way that you can say that that channeling of the wealth to the few hasn’t been designed into the system.
I doubt very much doubt if it was ‘designed into the system’ as it is a natural progression for those who are fortunate to have a bit to spare over their daily needs and wisely invest it and it naturally compounds if not spent on immediate luxuries whathaveyou.
If you have a well thought out progressive taxation system there is plenty to support the socialistic values of ensuiring everybody is looked after to a reasonable level … that is the modification to the capitalistic system that is needed.
Though I imagine that a lot here would like to see the capitalistic system go to the wall and people would be enslaved by the beaurocratic regulations ensuring that nobody can improve themselves … aa very dull world indeed.
Wouldn’t beaurocratic regulations dictate how everyone will look beautiful?
btw, the “capitalism or 100% planned economy/communism” dichotomy is false. There are different flavours of anarchism and communitarianism, too
The capitalist system:
That is the lessons of history and Piketty’s research. Taxation doesn’t pay for anything, it’s people actually working that pays for everything. This also applies to the rich – they don’t pay for anything either and they also don’t produce any wealth.
The capitalist system does need to go to the wall simply because it doesn’t work. Will this end up with a boring world? Nope. If anything, I figure it would be far more interesting.
A world where the focus is on relationships, on people and on culture in communities. Nothing more interesting than that. Nothing more fucking boring and lifeless than the latest Bugatti.
Though I imagine that a lot here would like to see the capitalistic system go to the wall and people would be enslaved by the beaurocratic regulations ensuring that nobody can improve themselves … aa very dull world indeed.
Oddly enough, standardisation is absolutely demanded and required by the corporate world. From logo colours to memo character spacing. To the way employees are dressed to how the phone is answered.
No one complains of that being bureaucratic or stifling. It’s just the way its done.
Uniformity has become the new norm. I remember when life was so much more interesting, diverse and people tended to help others.
That’s the way we need to push back towards, to find the path of being fully human beings again, nice thing is that people tend towards that way anyways – when they aren’t being misled and distracted by endless commercial, economic (and dare I say it – political) crap.
Also gosman, this line here “the wealth of the top 10 percent ” ….
is total bullshit. It is not the wealth of the top 10%, it is the wealth of the nation that the top 10% have managed to grab for themselves.
You are coming up short on the thinking stakes again. Quelle surprise…
What percentage would be acceptable?
In a survey of 5000 Americans, 9 out of 10 had this preference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vttbhl_kDoo
But who cares about the opinions of people who don’t have any money?
That is truly depressing. For two reasons – one, it makes life unbearably difficult for the bulk of the population relative to their neighbours; and two, it leads to the destruction of society (French revolution anyone?).
People that support that sort of system are scum bastards.
and two, it leads to the destruction of society (French revolution anyone?).
Seems to me like the US authorities are on to it, anticipating the likely rise of civil unrest when the combination of austerity, climate change disasters and oligarchy become irresistable.
Hence surveillance of everyone all the time, militarisation of the police, enabling US military to be deployed on US streets against US citizens, etc.
Oh, and then there’s the Minerva Research Initiative as described by Zero Hedge:
Such war-games are consistent with a raft of Pentagon planning documents which suggest that National Security Agency (NSA) mass surveillance is partially motivated to prepare for the destabilising impact of coming environmental, energy and economic shocks.
But that is just more lunacy. What do the authorities think such repression of already repressed people will do? Make the population bow down to their guns and jackboots?
Lunacy. Gns and jackboots are not the solution – all they will do is exacerbate the problem.
And any Americans thinking they can just uplift their wealth and relocate to somewhere “safe” like NZ backblocks better think again. They would be, and are, entirely unwelcome…
The situation will eventually descend into insanity IMO.
What do the authorities think such repression of already repressed people will do? Make the population bow down to their guns and jackboots?
Have a look at what they were willing to do with peaceful, young Occupy protestors.
then think about what the authorities would be willing to do if a real and substantial challenge to their position came up.
Hint – the USA were quite happy to do it to their own Japanese citizens in WWII
Every 10 years there should be a reset.
All wealth distributed evenly amongst everyone and then let people go for it for another ten years.
Reset all debt too.
What a vision. I suppose you could couple that with phil Ure’s desire to have grass distributed to all on a daily basis, and then we could all sit around in our pyjama’s all day passing the bong around. No chance of any civilian uprising then eh.
Great messaage for kids entering the work force, don’t be too successul in what you do as we will just take it all from you in 10 years. Stirling stuff eh. In fact dont even bother about qualifing in anything as its easy just to sit on your arse and get a pay out. By the way the burger and liquor shops are going great guns.
Great messaage for kids entering the work force, don’t be too successul in what you do as we will just take it all from you in 10 years.
And there’s the problem right there – success measured in monetary terms. Meaning that future generations are herded and goaded into a reality where the systems surrounding production and distribution (ie, the market) will ensure their continued relative impoverishment.
Way to go.
Ever reflected on why it is that so many kids are told not to pursue their passion? Y’know, the passions, valuable as they may be, that can’t be monetised?
You are correct Bill . I agree that success should not be measured in only monetary terms.
I am looking at it from a tax perspective & redistribution perspective. You would like the Govt to redistribute wealth to the segments that do not have much. That requires people to generate wealth. If there is no wealth being created then it is very difficult for anyone to distribute anything.
For some strange reason you seem to think that the rich create wealth. They don’t. The poor do but the rich take that wealth from them because our present system is set up to allow them to do that.
Ragged Trousered Philanthropists all.
Draco , I did not say that rich create wealth at all. What I did say is that some wealth is required if you wish to redistribute it.
There is plenty of great entrepreneurial endeavours of great acheivers and great givers in society.
Its pretty bleak for everyone if there is no wealth anywhere.
What I did say is that some wealth is required if you wish to redistribute it.
You only need redistribution if the wealth wasn’t correctly distributed in the first place and the only place that it could possibly be redistributed from would be the rich.
Pretty childish of me I suppose but I thought I’d get a bite from a ‘Rob’ or a ‘Gosman’ or a ‘Srylands’ etc with that little lure. An’ I wuz rite!
You hang the bait in the water and the frothing misanthropes like Rob can’t help themselves.
Hey Rob, beneficiaries should be paid the living wage ay?
That’s very biblical of you Hamish, but you’re a little off on your numbers as according to Leviticus 25, debt is to be reset, slaves freed and property returned to the original owners every 50 years.
Every 7 years or 49 years are the classical interpretations.
It was really scary “shit” a friend told me yesterday, about his recent medical review by WINZ. They are hard as nails now, and want to get sick and disabled into work, no matter what conditions. So he had a horrible experience a few years back, got another 2 years “grace”, and now they though it is time to “check” on his PERMANENT conditions again, whether Jesus may have appeared in his third coming, to heal him from all ailments.
The case manager did at first refuse all other info and records apart from the person’s GP’s medical certificate, now UK style called “Work Capacity Medical Certificate”. And the GP did this time not present too clear and conclusive info. So the case manager tried to question every entitlement, and was preparing the poor soul, desperate and scared to hell, given mental health issues, to basically move him onto the “jobseeker” benefit.
It took my mate a hell of an effort, to present all kinds of records, also a trusted psychologist’s one, to finally convince the manager, albeit rather reluctantly, as it sounded. Hell, there are things going on that scare me, it is not right what WINZ are doing to sick, injured and disabled now. If you can lift your hand and arm, they think you are “fit” to work, no matter what other condition. It comes back to David Bratt, WINZ’s Principal Health Advisor, likening benefit dependence to “drug dependence”, and that “mad” UK professor Mansel Aylward, who actually claims, most sickness is just in people’s minds. He calls it “illness belief”, all being just “psychological” fantasy, so to say, and the best “medicine” is work in open employment, competing with the fit and healthy. Do we live in a humane and honest society, or am I living a bloody nightmare here? Who else had bad experiences with WINZ in this area, I really would like to know. Study the following for your own well being:
‘WORK ABILITY ASSESSMENTS DONE FOR WORK AND INCOME – PARTLY FOLLOWING ACC’s APPROACH: A REVEALING FACT STUDY’
Also essential material to study is found here:
And also try a newer website, a forum with lots of similar info, search:
You and others may be interested to know that it is perfectly (?) legal for the Medical Appeals Board not to look at notes in coming to their decision around whether or not a person qualifies for Jobseeker (sickness with reduced work assessment), Supported Living, or Child Disability Allowance.
And I trust you have been here writehanded.org
ACCforum has a higher level of nutters than the average forum, mainly due I suspect to the abusive system forum members are subjected to.
Yes, ACC Forum has issues, and went downhill a bit, because of some there not being that honest and also getting at each other’s collars. I know what is going on there, and I ignore the bad stuff and read what is worth reading.
As for MABs, they have always had their own “rules”, being appointed by an appeals coordinator employed by MSD and WINZ, and of course always making sure at least 2 on a panel are “designated doctors”, chosen by Bratt and WINZ, and being favourable to WINZ.
This is nothing new, the whole system stinks, and what makes me so bloody angry is, that so many just shrug things off, and put up with all the BS, while people, no matter how sick and disabled, should get together with their fitter compatriots, to fight the damned injustice.
I know someone who has now the Ombudsmen Office on the attack line, as even they refused to even look at totally blunt evidence, of what goes on. It seems this country is with the upper echelons of admin and “public offices” so damned corrupt, it is not funny!
And yes, writehanded.org raised a fair bit, and justifiably, so I support Sarah Wilson, as I think her name is, she is due to her challenges still too cautious about it all, we need a full blown challenge and attack of the WINZ approach we now have. Who is “ready” for it, I ask?
@ xtasy…this may sound naive ….but …maybe there needs to be a Bill brought before the House to protect the rights of those with chronic mental health and physical health issues NOT to be harassed by WINZ into work….and where such people have been pressurized illegitimately with adverse and sometimes dire effects …WINZ can be sued! ( legal fees paid for by a publicly funded forensic health watch dog)
for example a person with schizophenia … who once would have been in sheltered care, which the state has now disestablished…but is now on compulsory medication and forced onto the streets with a health disability benefit ….is then pressurized by WINZ to be taken off their compulsory medication ( pressure brought on psychiatrists and mental health workers to get people off their lists, who seem to be coping and hence certified as capable of work)…. and this person is then by WINZ taken off their disability benefit and forced to hunt for work
….this can lead to a personal and public crisis…it can set chronically ill people back years…it could lead to suicide …..and in some cases such people forced into stress and work which they are not capable of by WINZ …could be a danger to the public as well
imo WINZ and the State has to be held accountable for the consequences of pressurizing chronically ill people off their disability benefits and to hunt for work
a UBI would solve this problem as well
“a UBI would solve this problem as well”
Depends on how it was set up and whether it was tory-proofed into the future. Prejudice against people with disabilities who are perceived as being blugers is entrenched in parts of NZ culture, including civil servants and NGOs. A UBI is not going to solve that issue for people with illness and disability who are dependent on the state for income, unless maybe the UBI is set higher for them. If they have to apply to any agency for a topup, then there are still going to be criteria that need to be met, and those criteria will be set by govt departments that currently practice discrimination (health or welfare). Even if the UBI was higher, it would still require testing for eligibility.
While I think that the UBI is impertative, we need to be careful not to think it will be an automatic panacea for people with disabilities. The work of dismantling prejudice could be done within WINZ and the health system as it is now, and it’s not, so what guarantees are there that a UBI scheme would be done differently?
Ok agreed about the UBI
…however another angle is enough free half way housing/homes/shelters which would go a long way to alleviating the problem for people with long term chronic disabilities…this seems to be a crucial area of need that needs addressing
eg in Christchurch they have had to requisition an acute mental health patient ward at Hillmorton…just to cater for the homeless with long term chronic health disabilities…seems like the need for free or affordable housing for people with long term chronic diasabilites is huge
Chooky, for those able to live in the community, still having manageable mental health issues, one would think that Housing NZ should look after them.
But learning a couple of years back, how they treated another mate of mine, also having mental and physical health issues leading to disability, they were at first damned anti his application, meaning they did not “trust” he was a genuinely deserving case.
He stayed in a cockroach infested, overcrowded and damp boarding house, and they still tried to argue he was “suitably housed”!
As he was close to breaking point, I assisted where I could, and we went to their regional head office and took other action, which they were not happy about. Only when he finally had a NZ Herald journalist take up his story and write about it, then suddenly, Housing NZ obliged with an offer within a week.
That is what we are up against, there is NO honest appreciation of person’s circumstances, it is all treated with one brush for all, and you have to basically end up in the gutter in too many cases, until the system kicks in and takes action. Ask the cops, they are dealing with endless misery stories all the time, expected to pick up the pieces at the bottom of the cliff, when it is often too bloody late. This government has NO HEART and NO SPIRIT, it dishonest and uncaring, and since Key and Nats got into power, things really turned nasty, we only do not hear much about it, because the media are bought off also, and happy to work with keeping this government happy and protected from too much criticism.
Too many vacant paper pushers on $45K pa and too many vacuous target setting line managers on $55K pa.
Anyone on staff who shows too much empathy or caring, they organisationally beat it out of you until you conform.
Chooky – if you ever have time, read some stuff under this link:
What we have is a situation, where doctors get off most malpractice and wrong decisions, as the HDC (Health and Disability Commissioner) is so far the ONLY institution to go to and make any complaint about breaches of the Code they are supposed to enforce and monitor. But last year’s report showed they had over 1,600 complaints, of which only just about 60 were “formally” investigated, and of those 42 had valid complaints about breaches by medical and health practitioners established.
Most cases are never seriously investigated, are dealt with through “advocacy” and “consultation” and “training” and so forth. The offending practitioners get at worst a kind of slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket “punishment”, and recommendations are made to “review” practice, and in some cases to “apologise” to the affected.
The ACC legislation does take away a lot of opportunities for affected to take action against doctors and other practitioners, as the right to sue was abolished. We have a situation where the Medical Council won’t usually act unless the rather useless HDC makes a referral to have a case investigated by them, and actions taken. Few cases ever go to the Director of Proceedings, and it is truly a disgrace what goes on.
What we need is to change the HDC Act to give the Commissioner some “teeth”, and to basically put in a requirement for investigations to be made, and certain sanctions being possible. As New Zealand has always struggled to maintain and afford a functioning health work force, the government is rather bending over backwards to not punish medicals too harshly. They need them, and they forgive too easily in too many cases.
As for assessors, like designated WINZ doctors, they are not strictly delivering treatment, so that gets them off the hook. They are not covered by the code for consumers of health and disability services that the HDC deal with. The same applies to persons like Principal Health Advisor for MSD Bratt, he is just an “advisor”, and thus does not even provide health services, so he gets away with comments and more, that are not what a usual doctor would get away with. The HDC also have a “memorandum of understanding” with ACC and probably MSD, so no serious actions will ever result in assessors making flawed assessments. It is indeed a gap in the law, so to say, why designated WINZ assessors and others get away with what they do.
It stinks, but even the opposition parties seem too damned inexperienced with medico legal matters, and too scared to take action in this area. So we have the status quo of “Gods” in white coats doing whatever they see fit, and one Mansel Aylward, the extreme UK professor, he even delivers them ideologically driven “science” to do what they wish to do, like tell sick and disabled, hey, you can still lift your arm, you can be a “signal giver” in roadworks then.
FFS I had enough of all this, but it seems at times it is a lost battle, as politicians are always just focused on the usual headline stuff, often trivial, and will do nothing to help people treated unfairly and disgustingly by WINZ and their “experts”!
“You and others may be interested to know that it is perfectly (?) legal for the Medical Appeals Board not to look at notes in coming to their decision around whether or not a person qualifies for Jobseeker (sickness with reduced work assessment), Supported Living, or Child Disability Allowance.”
So what are they basing their decision on?
Does anyone know if the review doctors and the appeal process are covered by the Health and Disability Act? I know WINZ itself isn’t, not being a health provider, but am curious how they’ve classified assessors.
Oh yeah, slightly off topic but there is a tender from an Australian insurance company for the ACC sensitive claims (% impairment) assessments. More oz crap contractors taking/attempting to take work from our specialised sexual abuse services.
It’s high time we looked after our own.
Awww – yes, stuff to be worried about, and that is just the beginning, look at what they have done in the UK, and what they are planning there for the future, it is not getting easier or better.
If you do actually read the stuff on “work ability assessments”, that post on ACC Forum, also soon to be published (in bits) on nzsocialjusticeblog2013, you will see what is already happening here, how we get it all privatised, and it involves Australian players too.
People should take this bloody seriously, but sadly so many are not bothering to study and read stuff, they still rely their own GP, who is though, due to the AFOEM new policy on the “health benefits of work” (introduced by Mansel Aylward there, well received by former ATOS President of AFOEM, Dr David Beaumont, who also got a “reputation” with ACC claimants AND runs his own “rehab” outfit “Pathways to work”!) also being indoctrinated now.
GPs are now being trained to follow the new agenda, and Bratt and Aylward made sure, the NZ College of General Practitioners and the Medical Schools all adopted the dogma, and we have it taught there now, believe it or not, and most do not even get any idea of what goes on!
Had an email from an Opposition M.P. regarding some queries I posed earlier, and he said a lot of the G.P.’s were also being driven by policy from the DHB’s, which comes straight from the Minister. We are truly being shafted. This Government is the most corrupt in the history of this nation.
10% are wealthier than the combined wealth of the rest of the country. Not a virtue to be proud of. And none of that was done by hard work, just pure speculation.
Yes, talk about GPs, they are ALL now pressured or “convinced” to tow the ideologically driven “new approach” to work ability. It comes now in this part of the world from the AFOEM (Australaisian Faculty of Occupational and Environmental Medicine), who are also part of the RACP (Royal Australasian College of Physicians), and they invite the top propagator of the ideology, about the “health benefits of work” (paid open employment!), Mr Mansel Aylward from the UK, in 2010 to give them the pseudo scientific justification for all cost saving.
If only more would open eyes, ears and braincells, and start reading stuff of relevance, publicly available:
Their “President Elect” is a former ATOS man, a convinced one, who has with some others facilitated to get all this introduced “Down Under”:
Their idea of the role of GPs:
The Position Statement on the Health Benefit of Work:
The Consensus Statement:
And yes, the CTU themselves fell for this propaganda approach, about the “work will set you free” mantra, and even one Helen Kelly signed it!
As I kept on challenging her and the CTU on this, she had a comment by me deleted on one of her posts. Fair enough, it may have been a bit “off topic”, but she has never answered to any challenges.
This whole stuff is now being drummed into each GP’s brain, and hence the government can faithfully rely on the collaboration of medical professionals in all this. The DHBs are very concerned about costs, so they will embrace it just to have another justification to save costs. The sick and disabled are told to “toughen up”, as Dr Bratt, Principal Health Advisor at WINZ and MSD says, benefit dependence is like “drug dependence”, I presented plenty of info on that before.
NZ is indeed corrupt, as this stuff was also presented to the Health and Disability Commissioner and is before the Office of Ombudsmen now, but it seems they want nothing to do with it!?
What kind of society has this country become? Are there any daring to speak up and out, and challenge all this? Too many just think of “number one” and are too scared to rock the boat, I am afraid.
Dr David Beaumont, from the UK, another bought “expert”, formerly working for ATOS and thus serving the DWP and so there:
His LinkedIn profile:
His business Pathways to Work:
His ‘Fit for Work’ involvement:
With such vested interests and his background, also having “advised” ACC and MSD before, no wonder he loved to have Aylward come here and sell the UNUM Provident paid “research” presented here!
NaziYahoo accuses Hamas……..80 Palestinians arrested……..remind me again how many Palestinian kids rot in IDF detention……..average stay etc etc. For throwing stones.
Love your work NaziYahoo……..against throwing stones.
All’s well……..Zionist ‘exceptionalism’ makes it so……..and the US Congress agrees……..so yeah, all’s well.
Professor Norman Finkelstein’s analysis of latest developments in the John Kerry-sponsored Israeli-Palestinian “Peace Talks”.
“If Kerry succeeds or if Kerry fails – either way, it’s a disaster for the Palestinians, who are caught between U.S.-brokered capitulation and the miserable status quo.”
“Mr Cunliffe doubted there was any connection between Liu’s residency bid and his donation two years later.”
Actually, it sounds like the truth, Chris. However, I can understand why you might not be familiar with that concept.
Sounds like National’s ‘Research Unit’ has been furiously trying to dig up some dirt.
How many Labour MPs interfered with a police investigation?
So you believe williamson called the cops cos of a donation, that collins went out of her way to promote oravida cos of a donation, you cant have it both ways.
Jesus chris, talk about burying the lede:
But the Herald can reveal Liu, 53, also paid $15,000 at a Labour Party auction in 2007 for a book signed by Helen Clark, the Prime Minister at the time, according to a party source.
..a book she DIDN’T EVEN WRITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Is that sort of like the painting she didn’t paint?
And surprise surprise, chris73 was spreading bullshit. According to Checkpoint, Labour has no record of any donation from Mr Liu.
Some people never learn !
A mighty fine fuck you by Jim Wright.
All we fought for in Iraq.
All we fought for in Iraq is on the cusp of vanishing.
That’s what Mitt Romney says.
We fought for. We fought for. We.
Oh, so it’s we now, is it, Mitt?
I must have missed you over there, but it was a busy place. We. The guy who helped set up “pro-draft” rallies and yet somehow managed to avoid service in Vietnam is upset about losing what “we” fought for? We.
Yeah, fuck you, Mitt.
And you’re all welcome to quote me on that.
Somebody stepped into my office yesterday and asked how I felt about it. He wanted to know how I felt about “losing” Iraq.
How do I feel about losing all we fought for?
I don’t know.
And Blair’s weaseling.
The reality is that the whole of the Middle East and beyond is going through a huge, agonising and protracted transition. We have to liberate ourselves from the notion that ‘we’ have caused this. We haven’t. We can argue as to whether our policies at points have helped or not; and whether action or inaction is the best policy and there is a lot to be said on both sides. But the fundamental cause of the crisis lies within the region not outside it.
He’s learned fine – he took the UK into an illegal war and has been richly rewarded for doing so.
Why the media still give that talking head airtime is beyond me. In fact, I’m still slightly amazed he’s avoided being prosecuted for war crimes but nonetheless..
A crisis is Iraq, John Key visits Obama, and a new NATO treaty signed in June 2012. What could go wrong?
Minor event happening in Ukraine in the next few hours. The “junta” (I wont give them any credit for their legitimacy) are laying bare the vacuity of EU backing of their cause. They are demanding Russia sells gas to them at a discount of over 35% of what the EU buys for. If they don’t get it they are threatening to walk away from their massive debt to their suppliers.
The Russia Gazprom are saying that they will cut the supply and demand pre-payment, the “junta” are threatening to cut supplies to EU as they transit Ukraine. The Kremlin are keeping quiet, a bad sign…..my suspicion is that the “bear” may just wake up angry and walk on in.
Russia is playing this very gradually step by step. Given that they have essentially been supplying Ukraine with free natural gas for many many months now they are being very patient – why? Because they want to demonstrate to Germany and other key EU states that they are giving their ‘valued commercial partner’ Ukraine the benefit of the doubt and all the due process available – and then some.
Which completely stymies US provocations aiming for Putin to militarily act rashly and justify a NATO move into Ukraine.
Very true: one wonders how the EU would react to the “puppet” regime denying them gas? It would really lay bare the disparity in interests between the Whitehouse and European economies.A true hot potato. As you say Putin very likely will just sit, all the cards are falling his way.
This is a recent interview where French media grilled Putin, during his visit to the Normandy commemorations. Over half an hour long of tough questions non-stop. Covering many topics, on Syria, on Ukraine, on Crimea, on Russia itself.
You got to hand it to Putin, he plays a very straight, statesman-like line in public.
So did Rick Barker declare the trip to Chongqing in the pecuniary interests register. I assume he just went to Chongqing on the way to the airport.
Is Barker’s partner on the board of Liu’s cement company?
I believe so.
He was on holiday, so, no, he wouldn’t have put it on the register. Does Key put the rounds of golf the American taxpayer shouts him on the register?
Yes he does.
Barker was at the time not traveling as a Government Minister, He was traveling as a private citizen…
so was Collins….oh wait a minute
Interestingly it’s only the period of her time as Minister for oravida that Collins didnt register overseas trips and their funding, in previous years she did so quite happily.
10 Overseas travel costs
Australia – joint Cabinet meeting and bilateral meetings. Contributor to
accommodation: Australian Government.
Her colleagues also happily declared their Chinese government funded trips.
I guess she is just too busy with her new portfolio
I have thought for some time there is a conflict/hypocracy in the Ukraine situation where it seemed that a demonstration led to the current Ukraine regime in a simular manner to how the Crimea changed hands … all very puzzling.
Further south it seems the abitary by western power[s] setting up of Iraq is now going to split into its natural parts with any luck despite the anguish of the west.
”Vote to end ACT Party rort in Epsom”, so says, apparently a Labour Party election pamphlet delivered to letter-boxes in the Epsom electorate, according to the Herald’s Clare Trevett that’s ”code” that Labour voters should vote for the National Party candidate,
If it were, ”code” that is, and i have my doubts, it would be pretty lame don’t you think, a real waste of paper, Labour would better serve it’s voters in Epsom, the Party, and, the country by simply telling Labour voters that a electorate vote for the National Candidate will rid them and us of the ACT Party and have Labour halfway to the Treasury Benches,
Micheal Wood, the Labour Party candidate for Epsom seems to know what is required having been quoted in the Trevett piece in today’s Herald as saying He is ”not campaigning for the National Party candidate yet”,
My opinion says that He should be tho, and openly, the sooner the ”party strategists” give Him the nod to do so the better…
Never gonna happen, Bad. A nod and a wink is as good at will get because the NZLP is never going to publicly support a Tory candidate. And nor should we.
Good O Te Reo, stuff the head back in the sand and pretend you can win the election while National ”gifts” electorates here, there, and, everywhere,
Dense seems a mild epithet to attach to such ”thinking”, Labour will not publicly support tactical voting to (a) get rid of ACT, and (b) ensure that they are more likely to be the next Government,
Is Te Reo tho saying that not ”publicly supporting” a tactical vote in Epsom means that it will do so via ”coded statements”,
Dishonest i would suggest could be added to Dense if that were the case…
As usual, you haven’t got a clue. Still, no doubt you’ll be equally appalled at the other party’s failure to endorse Paul Goldsmith. Looking forward to reading your condemnation of Hone’s dishonest and dense silence on the matter.
Neither Mana or in its new guise InternetMana have a presence of any size in the electorate that could sway the outcome in any way, the same cannot tho be said of Labour,
Your dragging into the conversation InternetMana vis a vis Epsom is simply more of your personal dishonesty, and, an unkind person would suggest that such personal dishonesty as you display is exhibited on a Party wide basis vis a vis the Epsom electorate…
Ooooh, hypocrisy alert! It’s only dense and dishonest if you’re a big party? Really? Presumably you think the Greens are are half dense and half dishonest. Doofus.
Te Reo, you need a name change, i suggest ‘Te Tupeke Pine’ as your debate consists of leaping from pin-head to pin-head,
If Labour cannot convince it’s voters in the Epsom electorate to vote for the National candidate then it is odds on that come September they will still be the opposition,
Take some responsibility wont you…
it horrifies me that u may be ‘somebody’ in labour..t.r.p..
..and that you could somehow be indicative of their mindset..
Have you got the fear, Phil?
Sit down, man. Take control. You have done something to your brain. You have made it high. If I lay ten mils of Diazepam on you, you will do something else to your brain, You will make it low. Why trust one drug and not the other?
That’s politics, isn’t it?
Hey Phil, stop whining and get out there and campaign.
If you’re out to change the government rather than sitting on your couch inhaling, great. But if you’re trying to tell any party what to do without some skin in this game, at this point you’re wasting your breath.
Never gonna happen, Bad. A nod and a wink is as good at will get because the NZLP is never going to publicly support a Tory candidate. And nor should we.
Yeah but there was plenty of public support for Douglas, Caygill, Prebble, et al
Yeah, good call, CV Though technically, Actoids aren’t tories.
one of the people living at our address got a letter from john key. The other two did not. I wonder how they decide who in the epsom electorate to send the mailout to?
“Labour would better serve it’s voters in Epsom, the Party, and, the country by simply telling Labour voters that a electorate vote for the National Candidate will rid them and us of the ACT Party and have Labour halfway to the Treasury Benches”
Nope. Labour is simultaneously sending a message:
a) to Labour voters to back Goldsmith in order to help Labour, and
b) to National voters to reject ACT
Your suggestion only achieves one of those objectives.
Iceland’s President on capitalism vs democracy (short video)
The bouncer who tackled the streaker at the Dunedin test should be charged with assault. It was outrageous. Bouncers routinely assault and even kill people in NZ. They are a pseudo-police force and are out of control. The police need to investigate and charge imo as this sort of behaviour by bouncers is not even remotely reasonable.
It was a vicious unnecessary tackle and the employer of that bouncer should also be sued for negligence resulting in physical harm.
Also looking at how the streaker was dragged away from the field – what was that about – the streaker did not appear to put up any resistance whatsoever but looked like he was getting roughed up any way.
“It was a vicious unnecessary tackle and the employer of that bouncer should also be sued for negligence resulting in physical harm”
What an ignorant comment. It was a vicious unnecessary tackle but to suggest that it was his employers fault is typical left thinking. You are assuming this thug was instructed to do a vicious tackle. It is common knowledge that if you do an unsafe act at work that it is serious misconduct and if there is an injury you can be fined as well as fired.
“It was a vicious unnecessary tackle but to suggest that it was his employers fault is typical left thinking”
Remind never to contract you to provide me any type of service. Apparently you believe that once you employ someone to provide the service to me on your behalf that you are no longer responsible for the work.
Oh nakiman, I think that you’re assuming that the employer correctly trained the bouncer in question and had a full set of proper policies in place governing the use of physical force.
But I’m going to guess that there are big gaps there and the employer has liability.
Further, if it comes out that the employer at any time stated to the bouncers that a hard line was to be taken against any pitch intrusion, then the legal fun really begins.
Wow………Naki’ launches furious attack on ‘vicarious liability’.
Unwittingly mind. He not having a fucking clue what it is……..obviously.
Well done Naki’ you poor thick bastard !
You seen the sad on-line poll results? 70+% reflecting pathetic ‘macho’ opinions. Doubt those numbers would stack up the same if a streaking woman had been similarly tackled by a female security guard. I don’t quite get it though seeing as how there’s no homophobia in NZ these days.
Yep. Simple boofheads who don’t even realise what they are advocating, namely vigilante justice and the establishment of anarchy. Boofheads who don’t think is what they are … I hope they don’t get a vote at the election – imagine the sort of idiotic damage they could do ….
Superb lines from Gordon Campbell:
With the exit of its former leader John Banks, the Act Party is currently in what might charitably be called a rebuilding phase. Mind you, it still appears to be preaching the old time religion of plucky self-reliance – which is pretty amusing, given that its own survival in Parliament has long been reliant on electorate handouts from the National Party, a form of welfare set to continue in Epsom this year. How on earth Act rationalizes its policy stance on welfare with its own modus operandi in Epsom is anyone’s guess.
borne out of former labour cabinet ministers, preaching personal responsibility, particularly for law breakers, they are the definition of contradiction.
Heh, stalker economy.
I hear that there is a new party being set up to oppose the use of 1080. I think it would be a good idea to start one that bans the use of private cars. Every day there are hurtful accidents, injuries and even deaths through the use of cars. People using them run over little children and kill them. They spread pollution and result in the high use of imported oil which has to be paid for from our precious export returns. Almost every holiday results in deaths, sometimes of adults and children, even whole families. Cars should be limited in availability just for taxi use, with more buses available, more frequently and good train services. Then more room for bikes, giving safer use of them.
So what about starting a Facebook campaign and build up interest and support to ban cars as death-causing bad technology causing untold harm. There is as much a case for this than that for banning 1080.
national will try and run a non campaign.
rely on photo ops and pr bullshit + crosby textor tricks and ruses.
Its going to be very subtle but very powerful.
get ready for the ride!
amy adams has begun by blaming auckland council for aucklands housing problems.
When the supercity was being pimped, cos we didnt get to vote, it was that as a single behemouth we could make our own decisions. Of course the truth was the nacts wanted a single entity to impose its will on, rather than going through 8.
It is the councils fault, I heard Penny H say that Auckland house’s are expensive because its a great place to live and lots of people want to live here. These councillors want to become wealthy from a housing shortage and over priced housing that is why they don’t want to make more land available to build on.
What did you think of the unitary plan?
amy adams is a prune.
aye..!..if you had politicians as fruit/veges….she wd be a prune..
..whereas brownlee wd be the prize-winning giant pumpkin @ the country fete…
..bennett an over-boiled beetroot…
..and key a stick of rancid celery…
Spoken like a true veggie
Collins would be a lemon…
craig a limp stick of rhubarb..
..finlayson is a martini olive..
.and joyce wd b something sour..
..ryall is one of those strange pomegranete things..
..that everyone looks at..but no-one wants to eat…
..and of course english..as some form of lumpen-turnip…
..(only good for (slow-cooked) veggie-stews..)
Collins would be a sweet, juicy peach…
way past its’ eat/use-by date..
The Internet Party has a petition up to:
“I agree that our Party Votes should have equal value. This means lowering the 5% threshold and removing the one-seat (coat-tails) threshold.”
This appeals to me regardless of Party loyalty.
despite being a likely beneficiary they want it gone. Cf ACT UF and national
the threshold should be lowered to 3%…
..i’ll start the animal-rights party then..
..neither left nor right..
..just there for the animals..
..people from right across the spectrum welcomed..
..they just have to want to end animal-slavery..
..it’s time to get cracking on that one..i reckon..
start it now. John banks is looking for a job in public service
NZ manufacturing falls for second month as new orders decline
New Zealand manufacturing activity fell for a second consecutive month in May to the lowest level in 17 months, with a decline in new orders and a rise in inventory suggesting demand is waning.
Yep, a ‘rockstar’ economy with no crisis in manufacturing | Tui.
Late yesterday there was a post up about the Kiwiassurance. I was sure it was on the NS??? There is now no sign of it. Am I going mad/senile?
Please someone release me from my doubt.
What’s the NS?
I must be senile Weka. I meant here on the The Standard. There was a post I am sure about Kiwiassure and a followup of DC giving speech. There is nothing in the comments or anywhere.
Would appreciate it if it could be confirmed that it had existed.
Lower threshold to 3 percent – Harre
In my opinion, the
The government should not allow the immediate political interests of any single party get in the way of changes that strengthen our electoral system in the long term.
In its report the commission said,
“Relatively few changes were needed to the electoral system. but those we recommend are important. They would enhance public
confidence in the fairness and operation of our MMP voting system and
The threshold should be dropped to the equivalent of 1 seat in Parliament. Someone has posted that figure on TS before but I can’t find it.
From memory it was around 25,000 votes which would be the equivalent of 1 seat in Parliament, although I could be wrong.
A 3 to 4 seat caucus = 2.5% of the vote is a practical, productive grouping of MPs in Parliament.
That should be what the threshold is set at.
Multiple 1 MP caucuses will fragment Parliament too much.
CV, prefer 1%=1 seat, thus the issues on the periphery would get a full airing in the Parliament, Phillips animal rights and dope decriminalization being two where i see most here would be in agreement with that have no specific voice,
i am sure when thought about there are quite a few issues that while parties might have specific policies that address these such are always ”on the slide” in terms of importance as the various Parties look at what their various coalition options are and what each component of such a coalition might react like in the face of the peripheral issues,
my view is stuff the present political parties, true MMP would consign them to the same fate as the Dinosaur…
“..true MMP would consign them to the same fate as the Dinosaur…..”
One other comment – a 3-4 seat caucus would prevent “single issue” parties from gaining Parliamentary traction.
If a political party wants into Parliament, it will have to stand for a broad range of policies, and not just a single issue.
as harre pointed out..3% is preferable for giving more a voice in parliament..
..and she noted the 4% in germany was only put in just after ww2..’cos of a fear of a resurgance of the far-right/nazis..
..there would be no more need for coat-tailing..
.and all ideas wd go out and argue/stand on their merits..
..and a 3% threshold would be a major strengthening of democracy..
..and would give us a much more representitive-parliament..
.and yes..the likes of craig wd likely b there.
..but if 3% of the population doubt the moon-landings happened..fear chem-trails..and think the earth is 10,000 yrs old..
..well i guess democracy dictates they too get a voice..
Why even have a threshold? It’s just a way of keeping out parties that have enough support to warrant 1-6 seats in parliament – elections therefore less accurately represent voter choice with a threshold than without.
The coat-tailing clause at least mitigates that somewhat – but then makes first-past-the-post electorate contests have undue relevance to the outcome of the election. I would also advocate preferential voting in electorates to make those seats also a fairer representation of voter preference.
Funny when the power went out in Auckland for a day back in 2006 the Troy scum screamed blue bloody murder. Well some of us in West Auckland have either no power or no hot water for a week – the Tory press does bugger all. Yesterday finally something said in Herald but only on full outage – http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11274099
The problem with hot water not being available is still on going for many. Funny they just can’t get the hot water to work properly again. This is a major structural flaw. I have asked around and many tradesmen fell Auckland is a ticking time bomb, especially it’s power and sewage.
I remember some slimy opposition MP back in 06 ranting for weeks on the telly about how the power outage was a crime for all New Zealanders and a disaster for Auckland. It 2014 and these Tory slime are in power and the power is still fubar, and getting worse. Once again political advantage is, who can steal the most off the working folk of this country. Thanks Len and thanks National the party of sell and hope – I would say pray, but you are so self absorbed god would struggle to hear you through all that petty self congratulations.
paula used to care but she isnt a westie anymore she is an Upper T now.
You also have fewer judder bars than remuera epsom or mt eden. Your children and pets just arent as valuable
Well,as well as it now happening under the Nats’ watch, the continuing outages seem to be a West Auckland problem. The central part of Auckland has been increasingly colonised by the well off, while parts of West Auckland, since 2010, are becoming increasingly ghettoised.
Folks in Parnell, Remmers, etc, probably don’t care much about the trials and struggles of Westies.
oh they LOVE paula, even more now they know she was never a real Westie
West of Auckland meet the East of Christchurch. Entitled to be ignored by those in power.
(b) National Party Values
We believe this will be achieved by building a society based on the
• Loyalty to our country, its democratic principles and our Sovereign as
Head of State
• National and personal security
• Equal citizenship and equal opportunity
• Individual freedom and choice
• Personal responsibility
• Competitive enterprise and rewards for achievement
• Limited government
• Strong families and caring communities
• Sustainable development of our environment
National = Equal opportunity Green/Labour/Internet Mana = Equal income
National = Rewards for achievement Green/Labour/Internet Mana = Tax for achievement
National = Sustainable development of our environment Green/Labour/Internet Mana = no development, industry closure and killing of cows
National = competitive enterprise Green/Labour/Internet Mana = nationalisation
Is it any wonder that National id polling so high?
how do you know roy morgan poll results in advance
I’m guessing because the last two Roy Morgan polls were good for National and bad for the left but don’t worry you’ll know if its good for the left if it gets its own thread:
If its still bad for the left it’ll get a mention in open mike
[lprent: This has come up before. But usually in non-election year polls only get posts every 2-3 months because that is how long it takes before a trend becomes clear outside of the noise. Obviously the frequency increases in a election year. The probability that a poll is relatively good or bad for the left in a post seems to to unrelated. When I have time I often pull the graphs through in OpenMike.
However I really don’t like people attempting to say what we do and just lying about it. You know this. 2 week ban for stupidity. ]
i didnt realise you and fisiani were the same person.
I’ve never been shy about jumping into a thread
So bad it wont get a mention.
so good Stuff and the herald haven’t even mentioned it yet… /sarc
So when national cabinet ministers signed off on novopay with at least one “mission critical” target unachieved (after renegotiating it twice and possibly with six other critical targets unachieved) and all are still in cabinet, how is that consistent with the value of “Personal responsibility”?
Fisi haw-haw. Sounds catchy…
You are an idiot. Look at the history of the governments led by National and Labour. Every one of the great progressive achievements on economic and social issues were all instituted and delivered by Labour administrations because Labour represents the bulk of the society while National primarily represents the wealthy and the privileged. Fact! Open your eyes.
Labour does NOT represent the bulk of the nation and can barely hold over 31% support for the last couple of years, even as the economic situation gets grimmer and grimmer, and 300,000 kids live in poverty.
The polling figures and support may be low, but the policies and programmes of Labour help the bulk of the country, the workers, the families and ordinary people. That is the point.
(speaking to the lies from fisi.)
..the greens are going into the election promising tax cuts..
..but don’t let facts get in the way of yr steaming-bullshit-fantasies….eh..?
and ‘sustainable development’..eh..?..national admit their policies will see out emissions increase by 50% over the next decade..
..so that’s more steaming-bullshit from you..isn’t it..?
..and for ‘competitive-enterprise’..read ‘corporate-welfare’..for ‘friends-of-national’..
..so that’s three for three…eh..?
..you really are fucken full of it..aren’t ya..?
Granny herald reports today…
Former National Business Review owner Barry Colman recently gave over $50,000 to the National Party in what is the wealthy publisher’s first contribution to the party that’s required to be disclosed.
Mr Colman paid $50,000 to the party earlier this month, on top of previous donations of $600 and $1520 in recent months according to recent filings of party donations over $30,000 on the Electoral Commission’s website.
Mr Colman’s previous donations to National were revealed in journalist Nicky Hager’s book the Hollow Men but were done in a way that didn’t require disclosure at the time.
The website also shows Conservative Party Leader Colin Craig sank a further $100,000 into his party earlier this month taking his total donations since the last election to $876,000.
He has said he intends funding the bulk of his party’s projected $1.5 million campaign costs.
A donation of just under $1.7 million shortly after the last election was the write-off of loans he made to the party during its 2011 election campaign.
NEWSFLASH! Barry Corbett is now OPPOSED to knife attacks
The Panel, Radio NZ National, Monday 16 June 2014
Jim Mora, Barry Corbett, Finlay Macdonald
One night in January 2008, a Manurewa resident called Bruce Emery took a knife in his hand and chased 15-year-old Pihema Cameron down a street. Pihema Cameron, a Māori, had been tagging the fence of Emery, a Pākehā. When Emery caught the boy, he stabbed him repeatedly. The killing was shocking, and was regarded with horror and condemned by all decent people. But a significant and shameless minority took the opportunity to praise the killer. The leading cheerleaders for this exercise in depravity were most—not all, but most—of the hosts on the notorious right wing radio station NewstalkZB, who ran a campaign of denigration, night after night after night, for months on end, against the dead boy and his family. They took their lines almost verbatim from the demonic partnership of Emery’s lawyer Chris Comesky and the Sensible Sentencing Trust’s Imperial Wizard Garth “The Knife” McVicar, who insisted truculently that the killer was a “decent citizen” who had been pushed over the brink by the low-life scum that infested his neighbourhood.
The brutal campaign even made it onto National Radio for a short time. The day after the killing of Pihema Cameron, Christchurch city councillor Barry Corbett expressed his concern and sympathy—not for the victim, but for the killer. A chorus of outrage led to Corbett making a vapid apology, and a mealy-mouthed “clarification” of his statement.
But no disciplinary action of any kind was taken against him by Radio New Zealand. Bomber Bradbury was permanently banned after committing the monumental crime of criticizing the behaviour of the Prime Minister—but Corbett, who actually spoke out in favour of a knife-killer, faced no such sanctions, and indeed has continued to regularly appear on The Panel.
As anyone who listened to today’s show will have noted, Corbett is as vacuous and reactionary as ever, and judging by his unstinting support for the thuggish behaviour by a security guard at the football in Dunedin on Saturday night, he still supports extremely violent behaviour. But he seems to have somewhat lost his enthusiasm for knife attacks.
Just to show him that some of us haven’t forgotten what Corbett said six years ago, I sent Jim Mora the following….
Barry Corbett’s dishonesty and hypocrisy
Barry Corbett predictably came out in support of that brutal hit on the streaker. But he claimed that the violence happened because the victim “stopped suddenly”. In fact, the victim was standing still for some time before the security guard hit him. Corbett’s words were entirely misleading; whether or not they were deliberately misleading is not clear.
It’s perfectly acceptable for Corbett to voice his endorsement of a high-velocity assault on an unsighted man—but he is not entitled to his own facts.
It was also intriguing to hear Barry Corbett try to bolster his argument by invoking the stabbing of Monica Seles by a crazed spectator. What a difference to Corbett’s attitude in 2008, when he loudly spoke out in FAVOUR of the frenzied knife-killing of a teenage boy in Auckland.
Yours in concern at the quality of your guests,
At 5:07 p.m. I received the following reply:
Thank you Morrissey; when Barry mentioned that the streaker had been on the move I wished I’d looked at the video again. Jim
Moz, while Corbett was clearly lying when he claimed to have watched the video several times and that he was convinced the security guard couldn’t have pulled out of the ‘tackle’, you don’t don’t do yourself any favours by referring to the Emery stabbing as frenzied or repeated. It was a single stab wound, and did not penetrate the full length of the blade. That fact is probably what saved Emery from an otherwise deserved murder conviction.
Moz, …you don’t don’t do yourself any favours by referring to the Emery stabbing as frenzied or repeated. It was a single stab wound, and did not penetrate the full length of the blade. That fact is probably what saved Emery from an otherwise deserved murder conviction.
Thanks for that, Te Reo. I guess I’ve just gotten into the pattern of describing it as a frenzied killing because no one has bothered to correct me before, and it’s become a pat formula by now. As you point out, it does no good to anyone to exaggerate like I have done here.
Anyway, it’s not Emery that disgusts me about this whole sordid business. Certainly, he committed a violent act, but he was remorseful and there seems to be little or no likelihood he will do it again. His vicious and cynical cheerleaders on the other hand, like Corbett, McVicar, Larry “Lackwit” Williams, Bruce Russell, “Whaleoil” and the rest of them, are beneath contempt.
It gives me a slight degree of pleasure to note that Emery’s rotten lawyer, Chris Comeskey, was eventually struck off for corrupt practices, and is now selling false teeth in the Australian outback.
Nicely put, mon ami. And good news about Comeskey; a laugh out loud bit of imagery that one!
Watch the tide turning on the “dietary fat is bad” mantra of the past handful of decades. Time magazine has front paged that the scientists were wrong, but appears to lay correct blame on the politicians and media who manufactured the mantra in the first place in the actual article (which is behind a paywall).
tl;dr dietary fat does not cause heart disease, obesity etc, refined carbohyrdates do. If you want to eat fat, eat it with veges not carbs.
And what about the bloody statins
Western conventional medicine, great when you are in a crisis, ranges from merely passable to crap every other instance.
still better than the alternatives.
Nah you’re wrong, and the reason that you are wrong is a fat probability tail of iatrogenics.
based on more evidence.
You know what they call alternative and complementary medicines that have evidence of efficacy? “Medicine”.
That would explain why Cam on Pubmed exists
Sarcasm aside, your statement is still wrong. Medical science has its own set of flaws, both in terms of bias/corruption, and the mere fact that it can’t study everything. It also lacks the capacity to study things that fall outside its current models of understanding. There is evidence of many things that have never been studied. To say that the only valid medicine is that which has been through an RCT is daft beyond belief.
On the other hand, you are right, it’s all medicine, which is why there are such things as herbal medicine, or medicine wo/men ;-p
CV, you do medicine a disservice. It’s not just iatrogenesis that makes McFlock wrong, it’s that many alternatives models work better than mainstream ones
Yeah. That’s why lifespan has plummeted since scientific medical research started.
Get your facts right. Increasing lifespan coincides with raised standards of living (better shelter, less over-crowding, better hygiene, better diet etc). Obviously medical science has helped on some areas, but much of the improvement is down to coal, gas and oil.
The irony of course is that had we combined alternative and mainstream approaches (the smart thing to do) we would have much better outcomes and would haven’t major fuckups like MRSA within half a century of the discovery of penicillin.
Get your facts right. Increasing lifespan coincides with raised standards of living (better shelter, less over-crowding, better hygiene, better diet etc).
Also, income levels as an independent factor separate from better access to healthcare or nutrition, is also a noted factor in improving longevity.
As you have so aptly described, it’s nothing to do with the myth (i.e. conceit) that modern scientific medicine has been the major demographic explanation to living longer.
But as income levels fall across the world, we can expect this to reverse as well.
Of course for individuals or very specific populations, modern medicine is indeed a life saver. But on a population basis, taking into account benefits as well as iatrogenesis and adverse effects, it doesn’t work out wholly positively.
who the fuck said “wholly positively”? It’s just a lot better than burning sage.
Perhaps marginally so, except burning sage doesn’t screw you over with a limb losing hospital acquired infection (that’s the fat tail downside I’ve been mentioning).
until you burn the house down
Like everything from infant mortality to geriatric care.
MRSA? I’d rather cut myself shaving today than in 1900. Much less risky.
The move from cut-throats to safety razors are what has prevented the most infections from shaving cuts since 1900. That’s health benefits due to industrial design and product technology improvement, in other words. Not medical care or antibiotics.
Just another little example of how medical care may have had some minor positive impact, but much less than other often overlooked non-medical factors.
Have to agree with CV on the statins McFlock. There should be some very red faces and big bloody lawsuits over the whole dietary fat = high cholestorol = heart diseases/diabetes thing. Anyone that values science should be appalled at what has been done with both the advice on diet, and the prescribing of statins.
Start with the link above, or Gary Taubes’ NYT article ‘What if it’s all been a big fat lie?’ and follow the trail.
My point is that I don’t particularly give a shit that science progresses and maybe changes direction in some cases. That’s how it works. And corporate involvement is a major kick in the nuts to scientific advancement.
But the fact remains that more evidence eventually overrules corporate influence. Asbestos, lead in fuel, CFCs, car safety – all evidence overcoming corporate influence.
So on balance, I won’t be suddenly giving medical-doctor-grade credibility to a certified pyramid therapiser who thinks tying a cat to my head will cure my cancer.
Calling modern primary care medicine “merely passable to crap” is just a fucking lie. It’s a lot better, as I said, than the alternatives that had us rebalancing humours or praying.
You obviously haven’t read. This isn’t about science progresseing and perhaps changing direction, unless you call an about turn progress. When Ancel Keys pushed the fat hypothesis, scientists at the time said he was wrong. Politicians followed the Keys’ line and then subsequent science fucked up. For decades. We now have 30 or 40 years of people having been given the wrong advice and this having led to a public health epidemic. You can downplay it all you like, but it just makes you look like a fundamentalist when the evidence is there to see. I’m kind of gobsmacked at your dismissal of the fat hypothesis issue given your involvement in public health promotion.
As for your criticism of alternative health, if you think this is about a certified pyramid therapiser, then you’re either incredibly ignorant, or extremely disingenuous. I’d actually go for the former because you come across as generally balanced in your understanding of information. The same fundy arguments you use were previously used against things like acupuncture that are now routinely available in the mainstream. It’s ok though, because thankfully people are still free to choose alternatives and don’t have to wait for the sanctioning from medical science when other bodies of knowledge are already leading the way.
Something for you weka
Much of what medical researchers conclude in their studies is misleading, exaggerated, or flat-out wrong. So why are doctors—to a striking extent—still drawing upon misinformation in their everyday practice?
Oct 4, 2010.
The same fundy arguments you use were previously used against things like acupuncture that are now routinely available in the mainstream.
sort of proves my point.
What was the reason for why it’s now routinely available in the mainstream? I seem to recall something about studies on its effectiveness…
Studies which were preceded by practitioners practicing competently within their own body of knowledge and patients going to acupuncturists and medical doctors seeing that their patients were getting better and eventually studies being done. Which kind of proves my point: medical science drags the chain on this, alternative medicine leads the way. If medical science wasn’t so full of itself, we would be a lot further along.
But until those studies were done, acupuncture was indistinguishable from whatever therapy steve jobs chose to delay actual treatment for.
Consider this analogy:
in front of me is a plate of small granules. There are slight differences in colour, shape and texture. Some granule types are a wonder food that will cure my ills and make me an Adonis. Other granule types don’t do a damned thing. A third type might actually slowly kill me. A variety of folk with varying degrees of eye-glaze insist that different granules are the wonder food.
Fuck ‘em all. I’ll wait for the evidence.
Calling modern primary care medicine “merely passable to crap” is just a fucking lie. It’s a lot better, as I said, than the alternatives that had us rebalancing humours or praying.
Oh FFS McFlock, what % of primary care medicine procedures are evidenced based on RCTs on meta-analyses?
25%? If you are lucky?
By your own standards you should be calling for 75% of primary care medicine to be ditched, right here, right now.
Do your own research. Like try and find out how much proven benefit an annual medical check provides (clue: next to none) vs how many doctors keep doing them.
whatever, dude. You made the assertion.
But I suppose that suggesting an assertion without evidence means I should just believe you is good enough for someone who thinks medicine doesn’t need evidence.
Edit: I’m off to bed.
Easy way out.
Well, yeah. I’m not going to support his assertions for him when I don’t have any basis to believe them in the first place.
Anybody esss wotchin Kemble Loive tunoite?
Re chasing Crims and the devasshun on ear mota ways?
Tork abeart stupudityt fuck!
We shud be fankful thet the only thung thet saves us from devastayshun is thet the crims (crumbs) are a wee bit fucker than the Police! )Or Please es Greffie calls ‘em)
( Ans of course they’ve got the likes of Jude, en Greg, en an “Indy” Please Kwoiry Thority ta bek em all up.
mmmm – that 3rd whurl bolt hole is looking more trektuv by the day goan forwid (especially knowing Key and Co hav it nex on their genda to cum grovling for FTA’s and the like loik.
[loik loik hoik hoik)
I really should be thinking farts and funnies – except that it’s ekshully quite serious (goan forwid).
20 – 30 years ago when I used to have to attend the dad-in-laws Saturfay morning Gardeninf Sess in the local – listening him reminisce about Al Alamein and various other campaigns – and the individuals barious legacies in the Nu Zull Please, I never expected I’d have to be laughing like fuck about their 21st legacy of cowardice, lying, woosiness, – you frikken name it.
Gref Fuckn O’Connor eh? (I mean JUST for starters!)
Pardon the fuk fingers
‘g’s ken pear es ‘f’s en the loik – but you get the idea.
I’ve not changed the channel (3), and I’m now witnessing another round of stupid.
I feel really sorry for Joe Average policeman! Really I do. Their own worst enema is their supposed representative and foreskin of their welfare (Greg).
Oh well …. more fool ‘em eh?
Good shit OWT – I couldn’t understand a lot of it but you know most of our communications are non-verbal so… and I enjoyed trying to understand it.
Minister officially a waste of time and space…says same minister.
“Ms Adams said her Government had said all it needed to and she did not believe talking in person would add any weight to their arguments.”
fisianis said he was going and not coming back.
did hooton get an order from crosby textor to keep sending this machine manufacted crap down the line.
national only believes in one thing and that is ling their own pockets.
John Key charged at the Auckland District Court with Conspiring to defeat justice.
Anyone else I’d say they were overreaching. McCready though – he’s as unpredictable success-wise as Winston Peters
I can here the shredders buzzing, the hard drive being nuked on the 9th floor from here
Conspiring to defeat justice
Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who conspires to obstruct, prevent, pervert, or defeat the course of justice in New Zealand or the course of justice in an overseas jurisdiction.
Compare: 1908 No 32 s 137
Section 116: amended, on 18 June 2002, by section 6(1) of the Crimes Amendment Act 2002 (2002 No 20).
Enjoying the world cup ?
a lot of Brazilians certainly are not !