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Open mike 16/11/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 16th, 2012 - 107 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

107 comments on “Open mike 16/11/2012”

  1. KhandallaMan 1

    Forgiveness is also a Labour value. 
    Forgiveness is the renunciation or cessation of resentment, indignation or anger as a result of a perceived offence, disagreement, or mistake.
    All members of the Labour Party get out of bed in the morning, or go to a Branch meeting or a Conference, with the intent of doing the right thing.  

    I, or you, may disagree with them. Politics is how we work with these different views. 

    • mac1 1.1

      Agree totally. Forgiveness I read recently is a characteristic of the strong, not of the weak. Especially it is important since it disposes of the crippling effects of resentment, indignation and anger.

      An examination of Labour/Left values would help us focus on what is truly important and be a timely reminder of what we seek to achieve, especially for others.

    • ak 1.2

      Quite right Khanno. I remember dear old dad telling us how he met the original founder of world Labour once and when pressed for practical instructions, the only single advice he gave them was exactly that. Forgiveness (I think the exact words were “as we forgive those who press arse against us” or summing) The only exception was currency dealers, funnily enough, beat the snot out of them….

    • Colonial Viper 1.3

      :D

    • prism 1.4

      What’s all this forgiveness thing. Who to whom?
      ‘Politics is how we work with these different views’.
      Then putting forward different views is how we work at the political coalface.
      In a real democracy there needs to be an opportunity for everyone in the country to put forward a reasoned view and have it considered. The views and analysis of performance cannot be contained to those within the mirror city all looking at their own reflections, listening to their own audio feed.

      • Uturn 1.4.1

        Aha! A sharp eye there, prism. But tell me, this Democracy thing, for who from whom? And reason, what does reason know? Any tips on leaving the Mirror city?

        • prism 1.4.1.1

          Uturn
          Ummmm so confusing. I wonder if a pinhole camera might help here. It was great with the eclipse which would have been otherwise blinding. And we blinding well need to find our way out of where we are.

  2. Te Reo Putake 2

    A nice article about the least pretentious leader in the world, Jose Mujica.
     
    “I’m called ‘the poorest president’, but I don’t feel poor. Poor people are those who only work to try to keep an expensive lifestyle, and always want more and more,” he says.
    “This is a matter of freedom. If you don’t have many possessions then you don’t need to work all your life like a slave to sustain them, and therefore you have more time for yourself,” he says.

  3. marsman 3

    Government for the casinos, by the casinos, of the casinos.

    SkyCity Knew Of Plan To Ease New Zealand Access For Chinese High Rollers-Stuff.co.nz

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/7957580/SkyCity-knew-of-plan-to-ease-access

    • Uturn 3.1

      Yes, I saw that while I was being randomly nosey over here, and the first article was about this:

      “The deal was struck after China Southern (Airlines) told Immigration NZ that its Gold and Silver Card holders were seeking to avoid “the necessity to answer questions relating to financial backing and employment history and to provide evidence of these” ”.

      To even be interested in a Sky Pearl Club Silver Card you have to fly the equivalent distance as that of here to London and back, every three years. It could be argued that the agreement with Immigration is one that “rich people” are accepted in good faith and that “poor people” are considered suspicious as default. If frequently flying around the world is not a symptom of being “rich”, then at least it is part of a certain set of middle-class values. If that’s the case, it’s almost predictably boring that favouritism is accepted by supporters of our current style of living. It’s also not a very accurate portrayal of the myriad variations of Chinese cultural beliefs.

      While I was at Avondale market last week there was a stand promoting Falun Gong, or more specifically, they were promoting resistance to the Chinese communist party. The banner on the stall read something about truth and goodness, happiness and values, and I thought wow, modern politics has pushed people in a circle back round to pre-Confucianism. I wonder if they’ll drift just a little bit further and drop the values and goodness, maybe even the happiness. Then I lost interest and went back to my banana pancake, which is always very tasty – two for $1.50.

      In certain Chinese writings, that were around while competing ideas like Confucianism also vied for dominance, there is the idea that an authentic person can be completely impoverished, while the confused rule, and that outward appearances are worthless. Also, that aligning oneself on the say-so of another, or accepting ingenuine gifts in the style of the prevailing fashion, are ideas that should be strenuously avoided if one seeks to live out all the years given by life. Sun Tzu had departed for his country estate by then, but his ideas on organising the acquisition of other people’s stuff were still in effect. I don’t know if Chinese organised criminals laundering money, or drug mules making deliveries, would carry Sky Pearl Club Silver or Gold cards. It might be a dead giveaway. Whether or not modern cultural beliefs are a threat to NZ is debateable. Probably, it’s just better to screen everyone as they arrive, than guess who is trouble or not by their frequent flyer plans.

  4. Jim Nald - Once Was National 4

    More rubbish from the Novopay saga, which should be renamed No-mo(re)-pay.

    After Te Puni Kokiri’s mind-numbingly long propaganda being read out yesterday on Morning Report, another tack is taken this morning with yet another lot of shambles unfolding. This time, courtesy of the Education Minister & Ministry. What are their responses?

    The Minister’s office is not returning calls and the Ministry is not responding:
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport

    WTF. You can’t make this shit up even with the strongest satire. It is clear that Minister Hekia has dumped the need to front up onto Assoc Minister Floss who himself is now fast vanishing from office.

    As for the Ministry of Education, it should be honest and say it is no longer part of the Public Service, but provides aggravation by way of public disservice.

    • AlseepWhileWalking 4.1

      You missed the part where the MOE has announced that they are already planning to make staff redundant. LOL as if the issues will be solved by next year!

      http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/absolute-insanity.html

      I encourage media to give appropriate air time to opposition MP’s to comment on issues such as this so that if ministers elect not to front interviews with the media at least the public know they are not totally irrelevant. Seems only fair.

    • prism 4.2

      Good one. Ministry of Aggravation. Very apt, and sounds educated too! How did you do it in NZs ‘faulty’ system?

    • Rosie 4.3

      “once was national” Big ups to you man:-)

      Re Hekia Parata and your statement about her lack of fronting up. That lady wears an invisibility cloak. She is one slick ninja. She has repeatedly declined John Campbells requets for interviews regarding the CHCH schools fiasco and the nopay issues. It not the odd request either, theres been several. Instead the poor bedragled and harrased looking secretary for the MOE has to front up.

    • mike e 4.4

      Getting rid of back room people is backfiring !
      on this govt!

  5. Is this the type of labour leader we need?
    The herald has a write up about the labour conference and it takes it in his office.
    One more telling blerb from the annointed one is that he once again refers to bloggers,
    saying that the “Bloggers are just a background noise,that, that is all it is worthy of”
    Today’s herald folks.
    ps,sorry i can’t link.

    • Te Reo Putake 5.1

      Here ’tis. The man is a plonker:
       
      “The influence of people sitting anonymously in front of computer screens behind darkened curtains is not something I think we should be taking as seriously as we do.”
       
      The problem is that the blogs are accurately reflecting how Labour voters feel about David Shearer. Shooting the messenger doesn’t alter the fact that he has failed to do his job convincingly. He may well end up being an accidental Prime Minister, but that will be because of Nationals failings not his own popularity. 
       
      And much as I take heart from the poll trends, Labour should be a damn site closer to National, given the ammunition they have at their disposal. Shearer will survive this conference, but Labour may not survive Shearer.

    • Dr Terry 5.2

      Again Shearer opted to insult critics from his own Party (plus others). His main interest is (and has been) self-praise. Also, the following in the Herald, “When he’s asked about what differentiates Labour from National, he answers promptly and opts to focus on economic policy rather than social”. That really is something coming from a Labour leader! In short, his goal is exactly the same as National’s. Yet he still maintains that Labour will mean taking the country in a different direction!
      Then Mr Shearer suggests Labour will offer “a more intelligent interventionist government”. Well, maybe more interventionist, but where from the intelligence? Surely he is imagining coalition with the Greens (where intelligence truly lies).

      The Herald again, “There is a very long pause indeed when Shearer is asked what differentiates him from John Key” – yes, another of those awful long pauses. The Herald continues, “In many ways the two are comparable . . . Shearer is more like Key than he is like Clark. He finally answers he has respect for Key as a ‘communicator’ . . . “. My God, we know only too well the kinds of communications we are receiving from Key!!
      Anyway, rest assured, Shearer “does know where he wants to take the country himself and will share that with the rest of us this weekend”. Hurrah! At last it is coming!! (Maybe)

    • just saying 5.3

      vainglorious plonker.

      (who was never an “aid worker” )

      • gobsmacked 5.3.1

        The juxtaposition of Khandalla Man’s comment and Starlight’s comment really does sum it all up.

        On the one hand, Labour supporters and the broad left saying …

        “Let’s talk. Let’s try and work together to resolve our problems, in a positive spirit. We want the same thing.”

        In response, the leadership says …

        “There isn’t a problem!”

        So the positive spirit turns into frustration, then anger.

        In response to the anger, the leadership says …

        “You’re a right-winger!” or “You’re a lonely sad loser!” (AKA a person with internet access)

        And so the anger grows.

  6. felix 6

    Hey mickysavage if you’re around I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the reinstatement of the rank of QC last night.

  7. Enough is Enough 7

    Enough

    When are we going to tell the Chinese we are not for sale?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/farming/7951798/Chinese-government-eyes-Fonterra-fund

    • prism 7.1

      We won’t tell the Chinese anything except welcome them to gamble at our casinos and while you’re here, get a sure bet on our country’s remaining enterprises.

  8. Jackal 8

    How low can you go?

    Clearly the unTRUTH and the NBR are just trying to be controversial in order to gain readership by exploiting the death of Greg King. What a bunch of cretins!

  9. aerobubble 9

    Government needs skin in the game, a deposit guarentee
    scheme on savings, basically insurance paid by banks
    and other institutions would expose quickly those not
    paying and so those running ponsi type schemes, with
    the additional incentive that government has justification
    for investigation. But National ended the deposit guarentee
    by allowing South Canterbury Finance into the scheme and
    not doing due diligence, win-win for crooks,
    well National don’t believe in
    due diligence, the market will do provide that. The
    cult of no governance keeps on giving, Pike river, CTV,
    SCF, but not Env.Canterbury funny enough, or alledgely fast
    tracking Chinese criminals to launder money. And
    wait up, why are australian banks deposits guarenteed but
    not NZ ones, surely aligning with Australia to remove
    inhibitors to businessness is a National policy???
    Wonder what Australian regulators have to say about the
    ametaur NZ banking system. We don;t need world standards,
    rich successful kiwis never make their money criminally,
    happens all over the world but not in NZ. Why is parliament
    filled with cretins? The senatoral chamber keeps on doing this,
    flash new regulation rammed into law that saves business
    costs (usually not actively wanted by business) and neo-liberalism
    neo-conservatism gets another victory for small incompete
    government.

    We cannot afford a DGS, WTF, we cannot NOT afford to protect
    investors who have been hoodwinked. BUT WAIT, its worse, Key
    promised to clear up the financial industry, that’s why the story
    comes out on a friday, to protect Key. Key lost a billion in SCF,
    then removed the incentive for government to stop further fraud.

    • ianmac 10.1

      Roll out the vaccines. GERM is insidious and so destructive. A great article Dave.
      People who have the interests of kids must read.

  10. prism 11

    Listening to the Dunedin Mayor this morning on the subject of the loss of Hillside engineering was like listening to a NACT robot. He was only interested in fending off Claire Curran.

    There was talk about the NZ price for engineering work for Kiwirail being 25% higher than the alternative. No business could ignore that so we had to go with the cheapest – mantra!

    When will the effect on our overseas reserves be taken into account. We have to borrow overseas to get the currency to pay for these overseas purchases. That in turn puts us further into hock as a country. What effect does that have on our exchange rate? Someone here will know and might find the time to explain. And in the meantime we are languishing with no jobs and declining business and rising unemployment. Dunedin could do with the money from building that NZrail stock, AND the onflow of spending to the community generally termed the multiplier effect.
    The multiplier effect is what grows an economy.
    The dry explanation – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics)
    also http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-an-expenditure-multiplier.htm
    for ‘deep throat’ there is an interview hour on the subject through here http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2011/10/ramey_on_stimul.html

    This Canadian link faulting austerity is interesting. http://rabble.ca/columnists/2012/10/multiplying-mistakes-tallying-economic-costs-austerity

    • thatguynz 11.1

      And the thing is that if the price difference was only 25% more expensive for NZ made then it is a false saving to manufacture offshore.  The government would easily recoup that cost from the tax take of the workers and suppliers not to mention the obvious cost savings of having those people in the workforce as opposed to on a potential benefit..
       
      False economy and completely disingenuous when solely the up front cost is considered..  What about the overall TCO?

      • prism 11.1.1

        thatguynz
        Yes why can’t we have that sort of wide economic thinking instead of being a vulture shopper seeking the cheapest.

  11. prism 12

    Friday on my mind Listen – get tapping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSowZcvoqr4

  12. Bill 13

    I notice that on the feed column, there is a link to Ruth Dyson release decrying the fact that democracy in Canterbury is poked. I agree with her sentiments. But didn’t Labour vote in favour of giving Gerry Brownlie extra-ordinary powers and wasn’t it Gerry Brownlie who used those powers to replace the elected Regional Council with appointees?

    Apologies if I’m remembering this incorrectly. Otherwise, shameful hypocrisy and selective memory or tacit admission of stupidity on the part of Labour.

    • prism 13.1

      Bill
      You must learn to live in the now! What we said before is well, before. This is now and if you don’t like these principles.. well we’ve got other ones.

  13. Morrissey 14

    Michael Laws: neither fair nor balanced
    Radio Live, Friday 16 November 2012

    Today, it’s not the “ferals” of the poorest suburbs in Whanganui and Hastings that are the object of Michael Laws’ snarling contempt. Overnight, Israel has stepped up its ongoing brutalisation of Gaza, so it’s incumbent on all unconditional supporters of Israel to express their undying love for the Holy State.

    Not all his listeners are as ready to uncritically accept what they are told in the mainstream news broadcasts. A young man called Aidan rings up Laws to remonstrate….

    AIDAN: You are siding with the oppressors.
    LAWS: No they’re not. They are not the oppressors.
    AIDAN: Palestinians in Israel are discriminated agai—
    LAWS: Listen Aidan. Listen to me, otherwise I’ll think you’re mad. Israel started in 1948 as a Jewish state. [A long, wandery and incoherent rehash of Israeli propaganda follows.] Anyway, coming up after the news, I’ll be speaking to an EXPERT on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

    …11 a.m. NEWS…

    LAWS: This latest middle eastern, ahhhh, flashpoint. Joining us to give us a bit of a background to all this is Professor William Harris, from the Political Studies department at Otago University. Bill, this current conflict, with the Israelis firing back at the Palestinians… My understanding is that the Palestinians are bitterly divided between Hamas and Fatah. Is that right?
    PROFESSOR HARRIS: That is right. In fact they may even be divided more than that. Since their last big operation in 2008-9, things have been desultory.
    LAWS: From an outsider’s perspective it makes no sense. Why would Hamas fire rockets at Israel?
    HARRIS: Yes but Gaza has been under a tight siege.
    LAWS: Yes but hasn’t Egypt been a part of that siege too?
    HARRIS: Egypt wants to be a mediator too.
    LAWS: When the U.N. created Israel in 1948, did they create a Palestinian state as well?

    In the face of such profound ignorance, Professor Harris managed to politely start educating the host, but this will be an ongoing project. Laws, who clearly knows hardly anything about the situation and has made no effort to do any reading about it, listened politely and asked reasonably intelligent questions.

    Encouragingly, Laws indicated that Professor Harris will be coming back on the programme again, so at least someone with a bit of knowledge will occasionally get a hearing.

    • If Israel had a food for orphans of Gaza programme then I might have some time for them.

      The blockade on Gaza has been running for how long ?

      And Israel says it’s the Orphans that started it by firing rockets at them?

      Who instigated the Blockade then, Let alone enforced it with “Diplomacy” ?

      Let them build their Muslim Mosques/Temples I say.

      • Morrissey 14.1.1

        And Israel says it’s the Orphans that started it by firing rockets at them?

        That’s exactly the message spouted by the BBC, Radio New Zealand, NewstalkZB, Radio Live, Television One and TV3. Nearly all of these broadcasters actually used Netanyahu’s fantastical and dishonest words—that Israelis “live under a constant barrage of rockets and missile fire”—and passed it off as their own copywriting.

        Who instigated the Blockade then, Let alone enforced it with “Diplomacy”?

        Israel instigated it, with the full support of its sponsor, the United States.

        • prism 14.1.1.1

          Morrissey
          Let’s face it Netanyahu is a General and he’s getting old. There’s probably an urgent desire on the part of all old generals to do something vital before they die. Look at the USA ones! And the Israeli just wants to keep the pot boiling and the huge armament supplies and business flooding in.

          And the Israelis have set up a political system that allows political power to those who have military power, so they are in permanent war mode. And they haven’t thought out the difficulties even impossibilities, of allowing any and all Jewish believers and sects to flourish. Now in the country they have their own version of the Taliban trying to drag them back into ancient times and sharia-type rules.

          And the Palestinians are so bloody irritating with their persistence about their land rights and harrassing and threatening Israel with their armaments and their tunnels and their inadequate leadership that matches Israel’s. And they won’t say that Israel is legit.

          So the score of death was three Israelis and fifteen West Bank. Some in Israel would think that’s too low a currency. The going rate has been far higher than that. For every one Israeli killed, it is about 30 Palestinians or perhaps down to 10 but also an olive grove, a strategic building and at least five houses demolished. Israel is mighty and will defend and punish.

          And while this country of intelligent, so-called civilised people carries on like this, creating hatred and defiance and suspicion amongst the Palestinians who retaliate in a similar byzantine manner they stoke the fire of contempt and anger amongst a vast population of young men who are ready and willing to attack anyone, given enough encouragement by their holy ones. And we all feel it. If in the back of their minds Israelis are thinking that we deserve it after all they suffered down the centuries and in Nazi Germany, if they don’t make firm moves to peace and demand civil compensation for breaches, if there is some sort of positive outcome for them, it will be a pyrrhic victory.

        • Dr Terry 14.1.1.2

          Obama has spoken to Netanyahu by ‘phone, encouraging him to step up the brutal assault on Gaza. How many Israelis were casualties? Count them on one hand. As usual we behold the massive over-retaliation.

    • OneTrack 14.2

      Or another plan would be if the palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel and killing Israeli civilians. Shocking idea. Wash your mouth out.

      • fatty 14.2.1

        Nah, that’s a good idea OneTrack…but the problem is you said into Israel when you really meant to say into Palestinian land that is occupied by Israel
        If Israel moves back to where they should be then the Palestinian rockets might stop…or they can just carry on like this for a couple more decades at most, until the USA can no longer protect Israel, and then we’ll see the brutal end of Israel from all their neighbours…that’s gonna be nasty

      • Morrissey 14.2.2

        Something calling itself “OneTrack” is hopelessly confused.

        …another plan would be if the palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel and killing Israeli civilians.

        The ignoramus has confused the Occupied Territories for Israel. Has this poor fool ever wondered why a few Palestinians are firing rockets into illegal settlements? Of course not. It doesn’t know what it’s talking about.

  14. prism 15

    Morisey
    This quote seems to apply to Michael Laws discourse – from a past Standard comment. From Monty Python – John Cleese et al.

    Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

    No it isn’t

  15. Lanthanide 16

    Gerrymandering:

    “So how did Republicans keep their House majority despite more Americans voting for the other party—something that has only happened three times in the last hundred years, according to political analyst Richard Winger? Because they drew the lines. ”

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/11/republicans-gerrymandering-house-representatives-election-chart

  16. kea 17

    Gallup attacks Nate Silver.

    “It is impossible to read this as anything other than an attack on Nate Silver, who is by far the most prominent aggregator and analyzer of others’ polls currently operating today. And it simply reeks of sour grapes. During the campaign year, Silver consistently pointed out that Gallup’s results were oddly inconsistent with what other pollsters were finding. And he was right — Gallup got it wrong. It is not inappropriate to point that out. But Gallup presumes too much when it effectively threatens to take its surveys home and just stop playing.”

    http://www.salon.com/2012/11/13/gallup_is_very_upset_at_nate_silver/

    • You can’t “Mimick” genius.
      If everyone started/tried to emulate Nate they’d be turfed out for being wrong all the time M8!

      :twisted:

      And futhermore, he’d just start his own polls surely? …. same data folks!

  17. gobsmacked 18

    Shearer’s critics are blogs aligned to the National Party, apparently …

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/121016/labour-conference-to-begin-amidst-attacks-on-shearer

    So, those National blogs and bloggers …

    Brian Edwards. Dim-Post. Imperator Fish. QoT. Giovanni Tiso. Chris Trotter. No Right Turn. Tapu Misa. Probably more I’ve missed. And of course, several on the Standard.

    Meanwhile, defending Shearer, those trusted Labour allies …

    Fran O’Sullivan. Richard Long (Don Brash’s guy). A Facebook page set up by Nats. Others?

    Black is white. White is black.

    • Bill 18.1

      Did I really hear Shearer waxing about future input from ‘the grassroots’? Nah. Couldn’t be. They be utterly dismissable people who spray paint their curtains a dark colour and won’t tell anyone what their name is. (apparently)

      And was that Goff praying or saying that ‘everyone’ (ie, caucus) was solidly behind Shearer while dismissing the Party’s grasroot sentiments as National Party tosh? (Headsup to Ph.Goff. – Nobody claimed there was a challenge from within caucus. ‘Everybody’ claimed they are right pissed off and disillusioned.)

      • Jim Nald 18.1.1

        Goff should count himself lucky to date for not been subject to the bright light of scrutiny about parachuting Shearer into a safe Labour seat, indeed the seat that the former three-term Prime Minister had just vacated.

        There were other very obvious more deserving candidates then.

    • QoT 18.2

      We have always been at war with Eurasia.

  18. prism 19

    Rioting in Europe. People are angry and desperate. The leaders are themselves sitting on the golden egg. They had Faberge eggs in Russia before the revolution. Will there have to be another revolution, another war. because the dangerous playboys and autocratic men and women at the top have too little head space for brain?

    Terry Pratchett’s character in the Discworld, Havelock Vetinari, Lord Vetinari, Patrician of Ankh-Morpork is a schemer but he does ensure that the place keeps going. He thinks his way past others who have aspirations. He allows for known moral problems, there is an Assassins Guild, a Thieves Guild, etc and they have stern standards to adhere to. Perhaps we need more honesty and less of the greasy promisers that slide away when there’s trouble.

    Some clips of the punishment that the rulers of European countries are dealing out on the people they are supposed to be serving. Hah! Some hints – not sure of content. http://mlcastle.net/raisethefist/tactics.html
    Spain -
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/14/eurozone-crisis-general-strikes-protest-day-of-action 14/11/12
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-police 29/9/12
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaIrRU8p6FM 27/5/2011
    (Comment under – Is it in a cops genes to be degenerate scum or do they just become that way?)
    Greece limited level of confrontation while German delegation was visiting.
    http://www.dw.de/greek-protesters-attack-german-official/a-16381676

  19. Why is that Bomber thinks he can lie so openly and still taken seriously?

    http://tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/the-problem-for-climate-deniers-like.html
    “The reason climate deniers like Slater and Farrar keep the spin lies going is because for them, it’s a cultural war. Slater and Farrar can not ever agree that human pollution is causing the planet to heat because it forces them to reflect upon the free market they slavishly worship.”

    Ok…..What say you Farrar?

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2012/07/climate_data.html
    “…what my view is, that there is global warming, and human activity is causing it, but that the extent of the warming is debatable and not as large as originally projected.”

    So Farrar may disagree with the extent but he quite clearly states he believes it is happening and that humans cause it.

    Where is the integrity?

    • felix 20.1

      There’s just no respect any more. Won’t someone think of the children?

    • Draco T Bastard 20.2

      Yeah, I’d say that was Farrar being a denier as the science clearly shows that the original projections were far below what’s actually happening.

      • TheContrarian 20.2.1

        Well you can quibble over who believes what extent (I disagree with Farrar myself) but the fact remains that ” Slater and Farrar can not ever agree that human pollution is causing the planet to heat ” is an utter falsehood. Provably so. A quick search of Kiwiblog has Farrar saying, many times, I believe in climate change and humans are causing it.

        It lacks integrity.

        • Lanthanide 20.2.1.1

          I agree with you.

          I often correct things or quibble over what others see as minor points and many probably think me a pedant, but IMO it’s important to get things correct, and when an error is pointed out to you, admit it.

          • TheContrarian 20.2.1.1.1

            Indeed, I pointed it out on Tumeke some hours ago but not only has the article not changed but my comment never made it out of moderation.

            To me that is somewhat dishonest if not outright lying

            • fatty 20.2.1.1.1.1

              it may still come through, or they may change the article…Tumeke’s moderation can take up to a day or so sometimes, that’s why I never post there anymore. And Bomber rarely interacts with the comments

              • The comment that is currently on the article was approved sometime after I sent mine.

                • fatty

                  looks like you’ve been ignored then. Its not really a site for discussion, just a place to go to read bomber’s thoughts…shame really, more of an online magazine because there is no interaction. Its gotten to the point where you not only know what topics are going to be posted on that blog, but also what is going to be said. Then again, that’s true for almost all blogs to a degree.
                  It could be better but I guess they are busy. Citizen A and the Union Report are worth a watch though…they’re the only TV shows I bother watching

                  • I’m not worried about being personally ignored but it goes further to my opinion of Bomber being dishonest, disingenuous and focused purely on his own positions at the expense of honesty.

                    The left-wing answer to Cam Sater.

                    • fatty

                      yeah, maybe, or maybe you have taken his words too strongly?…and it depends how you read what Farrar wrote, his last 7 words is what bomber is questioning – and not as large as originally projected That kind of statement leaves most readers thinking that climate change is questionable…check the comments on the post to see how Farrar’s post leads to heavy denial.
                      Bomber claims that Slater and Farrar are people who try to suggest that human pollution isn’t warming the planet and then says Muddy the waters on the science (there is no direct link between smoking and cancer) and keep repeating that position so people don’t think the science is as settled as it actually is.
                      Bomber uses the words try to suggest and muddy the waters …hardly claiming that Slater and Farrar flatly deny that warming is not occurring…
                      And lastly, Bomber uses the term climate deniers…that’s a vague term in itself…does it mean that they deny climate is changing, does it mean that they deny climate change is caused mainly by humans…or does it mean that they deny climate change is caused solely by humans?
                      Basically, Bomber is as vague as Farrar…and the other hand, Slater is in a league of his own.

          • McFlock 20.2.1.1.2

            I both agree and disagree (who said I’m unbalanced?).
                 
            Literally yes, Farrar acknowledges AGC. But he does minimise it and its significance in the quote TC pasted.
                   
            BUT I’m not so sure that denying AGC is different in any practical sense from denying its significance. The ship still sinks while Farrar et al argue that it’s just normal rain which has never been a problem before, or that there is a hole but it’s really not letting in as much water as alarmists suggest.
                 
            Oh, semantically they are distinct statements and Bomber should be more accurate,  but in the practical world Farrar is firmly in the “fuck the planet, my paymasters are okay” camp: the same side as Monckton etc.

            • TheContrarian 20.2.1.1.2.1

              Indeed but Bombers post isn’t about Farrar minimizing the effect of AGW (which would be the honest position) but about Farrar expressly denying it to the point of:
              “Slater and Farrar can not ever agree that human pollution is causing the planet to heat” when Farrar explicitly states many times, he believes it is caused by humans.

              It isn’t just right-wingers that omit facts and/or lie which is what bothers me about Bomber. He gets so barking mad at others for their lies and omissions but then proves himself to be no better.

              • McFlock

                Farrar doesn’t believe AGC is as significant as the [under]estimates predicted.
                         
                You’re getting worked up and throwing words like “integrity” around over the semantic difference between “does not affect” and “does not significantly affect”.
                       
                And quite frankly, the difference between:
                1) an AGC denier; and
                2) an AGC minimiser
                 
                is much less significant than the difference between:
                3) someone who confuses 1 and 2; and
                4) someone who is 1 or 2. 
                          
                But Bomber gets your nuts in a knot. Have fun with that. 

                  • McFlock

                    You’ve made 9 comments on the earth-shattering issue that Bomber’s blog omits the word “significant”. 
                           
                    Just saying. 

                    • Dude states the Farrar can’t ever admit the humans are causing global warm when he specifically does several times. Its dishonest.

                      But whatever man, I’m just pointing out that Bomber is the left’s Cam Slater in this respect.

                      Anyway, time to go get drunk

        • Rogue Trooper 20.2.1.2

          Where shall we look for integrity Top Cat? (compliment intended)

        • Draco T Bastard 20.2.1.3

          I think Farrar’s position lacks integrity. He’s saying that the science is correct and incorrect at the same time. He’s trying to say well, yes, AGW is happening but we don’t have to do anything about it. Which is a position of denial.

          • TheContrarian 20.2.1.3.1

            Well, whatever you think Farrar thinks the extent is he does not deny climate change is happening and that humans are causing it which is Bombers incorrect assertion. The honest position is that Farrar denies the extent of the damage being done, not that Farrar denies any damage in the first place.

      • Jackal 20.2.2

        It’s also a change in tune, with David Farrar often posting climate change denial rubbish. I guess he might have just woken up for a little while in the face of reality, but is still sleepily not really acknowledging the extent of the problem.

        You can’t ignore the fact that Farrar makes a number of arguments in favour of the fossil fuel industry and posts articles that try to deny climate change exists just because of one example TC. It’s the overall denying that Bomber is responding to, which makes his argument justified.

  20. Draco T Bastard 21

    I really don’t know if I should laugh or cry as the normal lies about banking are spread through the nation.

    The nation has a strong, well-regulated banking sector, but households, businesses and governments do not save enough of their income.

    If we ‘save money’ under the present system we actually run out of money and the economy would grind to a halt as the only thing that would be left would be the debt caused by the private banks charging interest on money they created.

  21. xtasy 22

    It is with regret that I have found confirmation that the comments on this site and forum are largely “navel gazing” types of comments, but the threads for discussion basically enforce this.

    Now we have the prospect of full blown, wider, escalating war in the Middle East, and here most are pre-occupied with a “Labour Conference”, which is likely to result in a kind of scenario, similar to the majority votes in former Eastern Bloc ruling parties.

    No way will anyone seriously challenge the leadership, and the mostly aged members will cast their votes and utter their support in old, stubborn fashion. There may be a bit of dissent and criticism, but I expect little.

    So it is time to move on, and to establish a NEW party on the left, that is inclusive, also stops the divisiveness amongst many activist groups I know, which is more like a “social scene” for some, to battle it out amongst each other. Unity is a distant goal or rather dream, it sometimes seems.

    Now why not bear a thought tonight also about what the hell goes on in Gaza and Palestine?

    Does anybody give a damn in NZ? I am sure some do, but it is far too few.

    Let the Middle East explode, I say, clear the air, let off steam perhaps, fight it out, which will never be cleared and sorted with bogey attempts to negotiate what is not negotiable.

    This attack by Israeli forces was well calculated, it happened just before an election, and again, it is the right wing, nationalistic Likud, who started this on purpose. They want to create war to get a “crisis” feeling, so Israelis feel afraid and vote for them. It has worked too many times, and it is tried again.

    The usual blame game goes on. Hamas and their supporters are all terrorists, that is the accusation, so we must march in and sort this out, is the addition.

    This time though, it may lead to more, and Israelis should be bloody worried, as this may end the existence of this state, which was created in the early post war years, under support by powers, who were still “enjoying” their last years of “colonial dominance” of the world. They did contribute to the creation of the state of Israel, which is a state based on race interests and dominance, and they would not know, that colonialism was to end soon.

    So let us see, whether the last remnant of a kind of neo-colonialist state of Zionists will survive, or whether jews will return to the diaspora, or at least learn to live with the natives of centuries of that land, in peace, and to share the land and interest.

    I wonder whether anyone here grasps the significance?!

    • ropata 22.1

      Labour is getting its own house in order before going off on tangents and pontificating about foreign policy

    • rosy 22.2

      Yes, xtasy there is a lot more risk this time around for Israel.

      I find it impossible to reconcile what Israel is doing to the Palestinians in Gaza given their own experience. For as long as they imprison Palestinians, deny a diplomatic solution and sporadically invade, there will be no resolution of this.

      The way I see it, sadly, is that from my safe little home there is not an effective thing I can do about this except make my express my opinions to those who support Israeli action and ask our U.S-aligned government to express support for Palestinian aspirations… and our government is not going to do that anytime soon.

    • Draco T Bastard 22.3

      The only people who can stop the war in the Middle East is the people in the ME. But, as you point out, there’s some people who don’t want to stop the war and they’re the people in power and they don’t want to stop the war because it keeps them in power.

  22. xtasy 23

    The Aliyah movement shows the nationalistic side to Israel, which is dominated by the settler movement, and who believe totally in the whole land, also the West Bank and Gaza, to be JEWISH land, that is theirs, and there to be taken and kept forever, as part of the promised land, that they believe God gave them!

    http://aliyahmagazine.com/

    The Jerusalem Post is the conservative leading paper and written media in Israel, and it also has strong ties with the Aliyah and Likud.

    http://www.jpost.com/

    Hamas to them are terrorists, and their supports and voters as well. Hence the hard line.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah

    The plan of the Aliyah movement, supported by the state of Israel, is to bring as many settlers of Jewish origin into the country, to strengthen the homeland character and solidarity, and to populate the land they believe is theirs.

    The Israeli Defence Force and Likud also believe, that the West Bank can never be surrendered to Palestinian rule, as the control of it is essential to Israeli security.

    Now this is important stuff, and it highly strategic a situation, so I wonder, where blase NZers stand on this all?!

  23. xtasy 25

    Better shut up now, as I do not want to upset soft lefties with too radical info and material. I have a library full of stuff, and I suggest to everyone, study, study, study, learn, learn and learn and get real about what goes on. Sadly this country is run by idiots, sadly largely for idiots. If you want to save your country, take a damned bloody stand! That is for ALL Nzers.

    • muzza 25.1

      Xtasy – The reason most in NZ, even those who do pay some interest, focus on local issues is because they feel there is some degree of input they can have which might one day, lead to directional change.

      Sadly this is not going to happen, and there are much closer links between the ME situation, and NZ than people would like to accept. NZ is simply an extension of the powers who control “the west”, dicate wars, and control right down to the local “clubs”

      NZ is rooted because the peoople have become fat, lazy, stupid and complicit!

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