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Open mike 19/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 19th, 2013 - 207 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

207 comments on “Open mike 19/06/2013”

  1. I understand the next Roy Morgan poll results are out today. I suspect that with even more interest than usual the results will be poured over and conclusions will be offered.

    Has National’s continuous assault on our rights and our constitutional norms persuaded enough people that they should be tossed out of office? Is David Shearer appealing to enough people as a leader in waiting? Has Phil Goff, Annette King, Kris Faafoi and Clayton Cosgrove’s frankly embarrassing decision to enjoy Sky City’s Eden Park hospitality had an effect on Labour’s support? Has Winston Peters’ theatrics improved his party’s standing? Is the Green Party’s disciplined and principled approach to policy resulting in gains? Is everyone getting too excited by a poll over 12 months away from the next election or should we be caring about the results now?

    Labour will be looking for a good result. If they do not get one and if Key and his minions still look like they will win the next election then Labour needs to have a cup of tea and a rethink.

    • JK 1.1

      And pigs might fly, Mickey. Labour’s senior MPs have “gone rogue” – it happens in corporates, and it obviously can happen in politics if there is not a strong leader in place. If Labour doesn’t get a good result in the poll, they’ll just shrug it off and continue as before. The Greens are looking more and more attractive as the alternative to vote for.

    • Winston Smith 1.2

      Much as I’d like to announce its National all the way I’m not even going to hazard a guess on what the polls will say

    • gobsmacked 1.3

      The last Morgan poll was probably an outlier (National 41%) so even if the result is bad for National (e.g. 42%) the headline will be “National up in latest poll”. The details will be more interesting, therefore ignored.

    • Enough is Enough 1.4

      “Has Phil Goff, Annette King, Kris Faafoi and Clayton Cosgrove’s frankly embarrassing decision to enjoy Sky City’s Eden Park hospitality had an effect on Labour’s support?”

      I don’t think so.

      Can Labour’s support get any worse?

      I suggest the 32-35% of people who still support Labour will always support Labour no matter how useless they are. We have a hard core tribal Labour core who just vote red every time. Unconditional support in an organisation that losts its compass in 1984 and has never really refound it.

      • Arfamo 1.4.1

        Labour’s fucked – lost its way and full of 1%ers in Parliament or on boards of businesses or NGOs creaming it, using all the tools of the wealthy to retain and hide their wealth and influence, doing fuck all for ordinary citizens but making sure their MPs and party hierarchy get plenty of gravy. Core support is low for good reason. Somewhere along the way soon the Greens should rebrand to exorcise the “crazy hippy anti business tree hugger” propaganda effect, which I think has been pedalled out to the public for so long now by the right in both Labour and National/Act it’s well embedded in the subconscious of enough voters to be effective in preventing many from looking into exactly how this party is becoming what Labour used to be – a party that is actively planning and testing and refining how it might actually be able to govern for the interests and betterment of the whole electorate, including the business sector. Labour could well end up becoming a minor support party before fading into history.

        • weka 1.4.1.1

          “Somewhere along the way soon the Greens should rebrand to exorcise the “crazy hippy anti business tree hugger” propaganda effect,”

          How do you propose they do that (more than they already have) without alienating their membership and core voters?

          • Arfamo 1.4.1.1.1

            Slowly, thoughtfully, and carefully, the way they are doing it now. They don’t need to convince their existing support base they have changed. They only need to convince swinging or lost voters they have a better alternative to Labour’s lost direction and audience. Labour has to convince those same voters they can be trusted. Their MPs keep showing the electorate they can’t. Every departure of one of their MPs elsewhere looks like rats leaving the sinking ship.

            • Arfamo 1.4.1.1.1.1

              A name change would be essential. Green is the source of the tree-hugger myths, and a word with a common meaning of inexperienced or naive. They are now none of these things. They have principles. They have articulate leaders and MPs and they understand better how to use media than Labour leaders do. IMO anyway. They are setting the few good parts of Labour’s agenda.

              • Morrissey

                A name change would be essential. Green is the source of the tree-hugger myths, and a word with a common meaning of inexperienced or naive.

                What utter nonsense. This spurious obsession with branding reminds me of the call by some Roger Douglas-type nitwits in the early 1980s to change the name of the Labour Party to the Social Democrati Party.

                At the time, party chairman Jim Anderton scotched the foolish talk, saying that unlike the Lange-Douglas loons, he did not feel ashamed of his connections with workers, and there was nothing shameful about the idea of work.

                • Arfamo

                  Don’t be so green :)

                  Ok, maybe its not essential. But I think it might be a good idea. Time will tell. Labour didn’t come from nothing and it initially represented labour. Its name makes it easy to demonise as a party for blue collar workers. Which is what happens. But which is laughable because it went through a period of representing the top end of town. Now it has no idea who it represents, nor do I.

        • Saarbo 1.4.1.2

          “Somewhere along the way soon the Greens should rebrand…”

          Yes, its an interesting point you make regarding branding. Branding is that intangible thing that is holding Labour up and holding the Greens back I suspect. The Greens are considerably more cohesive and principled than Labour (the current Labour that is), and Labour’s leadership doesn’t come close and yet the Greens continue to only attract 11% while Labour attract mid 30%.

          I suspect that Labour can only milk its brand equity for so long before we see some big drops in their support. And conversely some big improvements in Greens support.

          • Tim 1.4.1.2.1

            Silver perhaps? with maybe a fern. And a Labour Green alliance could brand itself with a flowering Pohutukawa.
            Its a sad state of affairs when it all comes down to branding, but I accept that these days – it does.

            • Descendant Of Sssmith 1.4.1.2.1.1

              Screw the branding Labour has a brand that had stood the test of time.

              It’s the policies and what the current crop of politicians believe in and stand for that is the problem.

              It’s the disconnect between prostituting the 8 hour working day, 40 hour working week, state housing for life, etc on their website and the current neo-Labour beliefs that is the problem.

              Still calling themselves neo-Labour solves the problem and would distinguish themselves from anyone who actually has left Labour values.

              Russell Brand has a bit to say on the image type of bullshit that those in power want us to buy into:

              http://gawker.com/russell-brand-destroys-msnbc-talk-show-host-for-treatin-513992493

              In an episode of Brain Games it’s also interesting to see how people picked the winner of electoral campaigns by how the people looked. Let us not sink that low.

      • gorj 1.4.2

        It was worse at the 2011 election… (27.5%)

    • Saarbo 1.5

      “Labour will be looking for a good result. If they do not get one and if Key and his minions still look like they will win the next election then Labour needs to have a cup of tea and a rethink.”

      Agree 100% Micky.

  2. lprent 2

    The creation of a backup imaging of the database appears to have stopped the database accepting connection from the server last night at about 0300. I missed the alarm because my cellphone was powerless.

    Now I have to figure out how to either stop that happening or to make sure that it restarts itself. And how to ensure that I get the alarms

    • karol 2.1

      Well, I guess at 3am there wouldn’t be many trying to read TS. And you didn’t get your sleep interrupted (unless you were working through the night on something else).

  3. Arfamo 3

    Greens Ditch Quantitative Easing Policy:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10891557

    Interesting development.

    • Colonial Viper 3.1

      Labour/David Parker refused to back the policy. Too radical. They dont think the NZ public is smart enough to see that the world is already printing like mad.

      But like the Green’s CGT, Labour will run with it later. In 4-6 years time. It is, as they say, an inevitability.

    • bad12 3.2

      All hail the cheap flat-screen tv and i-phone, i can understand the Green Party position on ‘printing money’, being the ‘junior party’ in the future coalition Government means that some policy is put aside as not worth dying in a ditch over,

      Is printing money radical or the cause of massive inflation, such can only be described as radical if we are to believe that the Governments of Europe,Japan and the US are such radical organizations,

      Massive inflation from ‘printing money’???, where is such inflation, the US has been ‘printing’ massive amounts of dollars for 5 years now along with Europe and the Japanese, can any of those opposed to ‘money printing’ on the grounds of massive inflation explain to us where and when this massive inflation is to occur???

      Had we as a country at the outset of the Global financial crisis ‘printed’ instead of ‘borrowed’ the 100-300 million dollars a week shortfall in Government revenue there would not at this moment be a debt ‘mountain’ of some 60-80 billion dollars,

      The efficacy of ‘printing money’ at such times of unforeseen shortfalls in Government revenue have now been well proven by those countries that have taken such measures,

      The Government need only have ‘printed’ it’s shortfall in revenue along with X amount of dollars which would have covered lowering the taxation on fuel as the nett lowering of the NZ$ caused by the 100-300 million dollar weekly printing pushed up the price of imported fuels,

      Instead we now have a Government debt best described in mountainous terms,and, cheap i-pads and flat-screens, you all can now feel an extreme amount of guilt every time you use such appliances…

      • aerobubble 3.2.1

        Its not so simple. Given the full policy platform of the Greens QE would be stablizing, but presently it arguable that it would set off a housing collapse. Look I’m no economist but the way I could see the economy is as an organism, fattened and lazy from cheap oil and cheap credit but bleed by countless cuts to the rule of law, regulations, rights, social cohesion (aka neo-liberalism). While the cheap juice from oil and the even more spectacular leverage of cheap credit, the body could take the cutting, but now energy and resource, aging and climate change, have turned the invincible ninnies into shit scared dopes. QE without re-regulation, higher taxes, without rebuilding the organism of the economy (or building a new economy broadband – not happening at present prices and the promise of market rigidity and rigging that is so come place in NZ) then any QE printing goes straight out the open wounds. That’s why the US has been joined by Japan, EU in printing and its still going on, their inertia politics that set in once their revolution had gotten its wish list is very hard to remove.

        Bring in capital gains, raise taxation on the riches, close loopholes, get state house building ramping up, then QE becomes very stablizing as it re-balances the money held by the wealthy back to middle NZ.

        The Greens weren’t wrong to highlight QE because it needed highlighting, aka US. And its a good policy to have around, just emphasis a bit better when it would be used and how, investors don’t mine a hit as long as its necessary, good in the medium to long term and isn’t going to be ongoing.
        Why is the NZZ dollar so high, because investors hate QE in the US, and why would it cause a housing bubble burst because paying the interest on the private nz debt without foriegn investment…

        anyway that’s my guess estimate.

        • McFlock 3.2.1.1

          Not a bad analogy – add a little hypertension in the housing market, and the fat, unfit economy might pop a vein if it tries to do vigorous exercise without everything else being taken into account, too.

    • Tangled up in blue 3.3

      Great news. That was one of the few Green Party policies I didn’t like.

      • bad12 3.3.1

        Care to explain why you didn’t like that particular policy???…

        • Tangled up in blue 3.3.1.1

          The large majority of NZ economists I’ve read on the issue claim that our economy is not in the right context to be considering QE yet. I.e. we’ve got other conventional monetary policy tools to use first, our Official Cash Rate while historically low still has room to move and our economy isn’t in crisis.

          • bad12 3.3.1.1.1

            Have you got any links to such an assertion ”the large majority of NZ economists etc”, you don’t see an economy carrying 60-80 billion dollars of Government debt as a crisis???,

            There were 2 paths this Government could have taken vis a vis addressing the effects of the Global Financial Crisis, borrow or print, i would say that given the choice made we not only face a Government with a debt crisis we also face a government with a crisis of intelligence, lack of it that is…

            • Tangled up in blue 3.3.1.1.1.1

              OTOH Gareth Morgan, Bollard, Noland, John McDermott David Mayes vs Nana.

              I think comparatively NZ’s not in crisis. Though we could have been in a lot better position now had it not been for Key and National. Also I think short-term borrowing is a good choice given the amount of debt Cullen paid off though it should have went along with a CGT, extending the pension age without income tax cuts.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Also I think short-term borrowing is a good choice…

                It’s not as all it does is unnecessarily add to the cost to run our government. The reality is that if our government printed our money (with adequate controls of course) it would never have to borrow at all, our money would stabilise in the forex markets and we’d be less in debt than we are.

                • Tangled up in blue

                  Yeah that’s the theory. Though it’s not as uncontroversial as you’re suggesting and would be unusual to bring in with our OCR where it is and also not without big financial risks.

                  I guess it’s all a bit moot now because not even our innovative Greens are willing to pursue it.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    The OCR would be dropped as there would be no need of it – the private banks would no longer be creating the money.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.1.2

            The large majority of NZ economists…

            The large majority of economists that completely failed to predict the GFC? Yeah, I wouldn’t listen to them as they wouldn’t know what an economy was if they tripped over one.

            we’ve got other conventional monetary policy tools to use first,

            Actually, no we don’t. We have the OCR and that’s it.

            The government printing money wouldn’t destabilise the economy at all and our economy is in crisis – that’s what that high unemployment and degrading industrialisation means.

          • KJT 3.3.1.1.3

            Yeah. Raise the OCR. Bring in another lot of hot money to raise house prices, raise interest rates to kill our few remaining manufacturers and push the dollar higher.

            Great!

            QE is a much better option.

            • Gosman 3.3.1.1.3.1

              Seems like not even the Greens agree this policy is worth dying in a ditch over. Perhaps you could get Hone to take up the idea. I would like that very much.

  4. bad12 4

    Fluoridation???, according to the Wikipedia only 5.7% of the worlds population use fluoridated water, (that’s the stuff that’s added by government/councils as opposed to what occurs naturally in water),

    Approximately 1/2 the New Zealand population use regularly fluoridated water, (where’s the studies showing that those who do not have added fluoride in their water have grossly worse rates of tooth decay than those that do),

    From all that i have read any beneficial effects of fluoride added to water would only occur while such water is held in the mouth, so drinking fluoridated water would have minimal beneficial effects,

    The supposed beneficial effects of fluoride have of course occurred during the same period as the uptake and use of fluoridated toothpastes have occurred and in my opinion claims of better dental out-comes occurring because of fluoridation are at best dubious,

    http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/fluoridation_by_country

    • McFlock 4.1

      Interesting report here. Check out pp305–7, comparing oral health in kids between schools in fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas.

    • Tangled up in blue 4.2

      Some good information over at SciBlogs:

      fluoridation (where did science communication go wrong?) – http://sciblogs.co.nz/bioblog/2013/06/06/fluoridation-where-did-science-communication-go-wrong/
      Water Fluoridation – the emotional tail wags the dog in Hamilton – http://sciblogs.co.nz/diplomaticimmunity/2013/06/05/water-fluoridation-the-emotional-tail-wags-the-dog-in-hamilton/
      Tactics and common arguments of the anti-fluoridationists- http://sciblogs.co.nz/open-parachute/2013/06/07/tactics-and-common-arguments-of-the-anti-fluoridationists/
      Fluoridation – Mass Medication or a Societal Benefit? – http://sciblogs.co.nz/molecular-matters/2013/06/08/fluoridation-mass-medication-or-a-societal-benefit/
      Fluoridation – are we dumping toxic metals into our water supplies? – http://sciblogs.co.nz/open-parachute/2013/06/11/fluoridation-are-we-dumping-toxic-metals-into-our-water-supplies/
      fluoridation: those pesky facts – http://sciblogs.co.nz/bioblog/2013/06/12/fluoridation-those-pesky-facts/

      • weka 4.2.1

        from the first link

        Right now I’m beginning to think that those of us who are science educators & communicators have done something very wrong, because in the summary of ‘views against’ I see things like this (emphasis in the original):

        A key sub-theme that emerged within this topic was the view that fluoride is a chemical or poison.

        Yes, fluoride is a chemical. So are table salt & dihydrogen monoxide**. So often we see the term ‘chemical’ used in a pejorative sense, ignoring the fact that everything on the planet, ourselves included, is at some level a concatenation of chemicals. Incidentally, in the right – or should that be wrong? – quantities all are toxic: drinking too much water can be fatal.

        I haven’t read the rest of the article yet, and will be interested to see where they go with the idea that scientists have a communication problem, because it’s right there in those paragraphs. Scientists use the word ‘chemical’ to mean one thing, lay people use it in a different way. In the paragraphs above is the classic problem – some scientists want everyone to use words the way they use them, rather than understanding that good communication is about how people negotiate meaning. Really dumb and unhelpful.

        • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.1

          It’s an interesting approach to say that this is the result of a “science communication problem”. Maybe it’s the result of a science credibility problem.

          If it’s one and not the other, then its a whole other thing going on.

          • McFlock 4.2.1.1.1

            Could just be a case of casting pearls before swine, or seeds onto stony ground, etc.

            • weka 4.2.1.1.1.1

              lolz. That’s right, if you’re not a scientist you are a stupid ingrate. As we all know, scientists are better than everyone else and should be in charge of everything ;-p

              • McFlock

                I recall reading an article in Times Higher Education Supplement about the communication gap between “spoon feeding” and “mind reading”, i.e. lecturers thinking they’ve given more than enough information while many students are still completely lost.

                While it was a valid point and interesting article,the cynic in me thinks that there’s not enough time in the universe to adequately explain some issues to some folk, however loud or adept at creating websites they might be.

                • weka

                  True enough, but the problem is that those people at the extreme end of the spectrum get sympathy from those closer to the middle specifically because too many scientists have been arrogant and disconnected from every day reality. So sure, write off the tinfoil hat brigade. But you’re still also losing a huge chunk of the population who are capable of rational thought and critical thinking (and lay science education) who are really sick of being told that they are stupid by scientists.

          • weka 4.2.1.1.2

            It’s an interesting approach to say that this is the result of a “science communication problem”. Maybe it’s the result of a science credibility problem.

            If it’s one and not the other, then its a whole other thing going on.

            Could be both, in varying proportions. I tend to think it is both, but I do have some sympathy for scientists who have to deal with a largely scientifically illiterate population. That is a both a communication issue and an education one. On the other hand, science as it is practiced is deeply flawed and people are right to be suspicious and untrusting in many cases, esp when they are being told to trust on the basis of faith.

      • Macro 4.2.2

        The pro side of fluoridation is that appears to be of some benefit for primary school aged children. There is no benefit to people once their secondary teeth are formed. I say it “appears” – because the oral health of children in developed countries has been improving at a steady rate since the 1930’s. Whether or not the countries have fluoridated water supplies. Good oral health is more a factor of of good nutrition, regular brushing and, and regular dental hygiene. As the average number of caries per child drops, the percentage differences between one group and another increases. For example the percentage difference between no caries and 1 filling is 100%, the percentage difference between 2 caries and 3 is 50% and so forth. The average number of filled teeth for children aged between 6 to 13 is around 3. A a 30 % increase over normal would mean 4 fillings rather than 3. So what we are talking about is the mass medication of the entire population to prevent one or two fillings in a small proportion of the population who may or may not benefit. Maybe they prefer to drink soft drinks rather than water when they get home from school.

        The negative side of fluoridation is dismissed out of hand by those who support it. However there are certain issues that are not addressed by either the Ministry of Health or those medical professionals that champion the cause of fluoridation. Note that there is an increasing number of medical and scientific opinion that challenges the conventional wisdom that fluoridation at current levels is safe.

        Firstly town supplies in NZ that are fluoridated add Hydrofluorosilicic Acid at the rate of 0.01 g/l. The recommended maximum dosage for H2F6Si is 0.02g/kg. A young infant bottle fed on infant formula mixed with fluoridated water will exceed the maximum dosage daily. The EPA in the USA has recently recommended that fluoridation be dropped from 0.01 g/l to 0.007 g/l.

        Secondly there are 36 studies that show a correlation between fluoridation and reduced scores on standard IQ tests.

        It should come as no surprise that fluorine is to be found in soft tissue as well as bone tissue. It is know to accumulate in the thyroid, replacing iodine, and the pituitary gland.

        The ability of the body to excrete fluoride ions is impaired in persons with chronic kidney disorders, up to 1/7 of the population.

        Finally fluorosilicates are not the same as fluoride. They are supposed to disassociate at pH of 7 but the human gut has a pH of around 2-3. And at that level of acidity few Fluoride ions are available.

        This was the information presented to the Hamilton Council. The Ministry of Health and the pro fluoride lobby had ample opportunity to refute these concerns, but were unable to do so.

        The simple fact remains that for a large proportion of the population fluoridation is unnecessary and the target population is comparatively small. It is to take a sledge hammer to crack a nut. There are better ways to achieve the same outcome.

        • lprent 4.2.2.1

          Wisdom teeth?

          My one wisdom tooth grew in while I was in a city with inadequate fluoride. It rotted out less than a decade later. Needless to say that is the only one I have lost like that.

          You may need to extend your ages and population sizes somewhat. Or do mandatory extraction of all wisdom teeth?

          :twisted:

          • Macro 4.2.2.1.1

            The EU study into Fluoridation conducted in 2011 by the Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks of the European Commission states in summary “There is no clear advantage of water fluoridation over direct application for prevention, and systemic exposure via drinking water is unlikely to benefit people whose teeth have already grown. Europe-wide trends show a reduction in tooth decay in 12 year-olds regardless of whether water is fluoridated or not.”

            • Colonial Viper 4.2.2.1.1.1

              And this is the key. If you are going to compulsorily mass medicate a large population, all issues of importance sure better be beyond reasonable doubt. And there is no way that threshold is reached on the issue of fluoridation.

        • Tangled up in blue 4.2.2.2

          The World Health Organisation, the World Dental Federation, the International Association for Dental Research and the overwhelming majority (if not all) of health and health promotion agencies promote the fluoridation of water. Over in Victoria Australia they’re spending Au$3.6 million to build more fluoridation plants across rural parts of their State. It’s fine to have a healthy skepticism for science but to claim you are right and the near consensus of scientists are wrong is a conspiracy theory.

          • bad12 4.2.2.2.1

            94.3% of the world does not fluoridate it’s water over and above what is naturally found in water,

            The 5.3% of the world that does knows better right???…

            • Tangled up in blue 4.2.2.2.1.1

              That comment is intellectually dishonest at best.

              For starters, wouldn’t the amount of regions that can fluoridate water but haven’t, and also the areas that have stopped fluoridating; have been more pertinent? And secondly, (as you very well know) the percentage of people not drinking fluoridated water isn’t some sort of public peer review system for the mountain of studies supporting the safety and benefits of fluoridation.

              Seriously, people thinking that they know better than the majority of scientists is silly.

              • Colonial Viper

                It’s fine to have a healthy skepticism for science but to claim you are right and the near consensus of scientists are wrong is a conspiracy theory.

                Any educated people in Germany or Austria? Scientists too? Are Austria and Germany advanced western economies? Do they have their own dental schools and train their own dentists?

                Well newsflash: these countries do not fluoridate their water, but they do make available some fluoridated toothpastes and salt.

                Further, on German unification, the new government ordered the East German authorities which were fluoridating water to cease doing so. And that’s the way it has been ever since.

                And just 50% of NZers don’t drink fluoridated water so the ‘consensus amongst scientists’ apparently only carries so much weight.

                • rosy

                  I thought this [.pdf] was a reasonable summary of the reasons behind the decline in dental caries in Western Europe.

                  – Preventative dentistry (even NZ gets a mention with free school-based dental care for kids – note – report is dated 2004)
                  – Fluoridation – whether topical, tablets or in water, salt etc
                  – Better brushing
                  – Cost of toothbrushes/fluoridated toothpaste is reasonable (compared to the cost in Eastern Europe where this is one of the reasons for poorer dental health)
                  – Socio-economic differences – poor people and migrants from outside Western Europe have worse dental health. Also noted were the geographic disparities in UK, with the south-east (more affluent) having better dental health.

                  My view is that most people don’t need fluoridated water for dental health in NZ (I have no problem with the safety aspects), but if it’s going to be removed then other preventative measures must be ensured for kids who would otherwise not get the fluoride their teeth need.

                • KJT

                  Isn’t it that fluoride occurs naturally in the water in most countries.

                  NZ water and soils are markedly deficient in trace elements.
                  Including many we need for better health.

                  Too pure. If you like!

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Isn’t it that fluoride occurs naturally in the water in most countries.

                    Yes, but only in very specific waterways or bodies of water. Which usually means that 5% or fewer people in that country will benefit.

          • weka 4.2.2.2.2

            “but to claim you are right and the near consensus of scientists are wrong is a conspiracy theory.”

            No, it’s not. It’s disagreeing with the consensus. Conspiracy theories require the idea that the WHO, WDF, etc conspired in secret to fluoridate the water in certain populations for nefarious ends. Now, it is true that there are people who believe this (that fluoridation is used intentionally to dumb down the population). But it’s not true to say that everyone who opposes fluoridation believes that, or is a conspiracy theorist.

            There is nothing in macro’s comment that even hints at conspiracy. I know that this is hard for some people to hear, but sometimes organisations relying on science get it wrong. Sometimes massively. In this case I don’t believe that the MoH, dental/medical associations etc are evil or manipulative. I think that they work from a specific world view about what health is, what risk is, and engage in confirmation bias as a result.

            The easiest way to understand this is to look at another big example that doesn’t have the associations with the tinfoil hat brigade. Look at the history of the fat hypothesis. Here’s the best introduction. In it award winning science journalist Gary Taubes examines how the fat hypothesis (that saturated fat causes heart disease) came into being due to factors other than good science.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

            • Colonial Viper 4.2.2.2.2.1

              I know that this is hard for some people to hear, but sometimes organisations relying on science get it wrong.

              It’s like a mass socialised amnesia, actually. And ignoring that the operation of science in our society is highly entrenched in personalities, politics, profits, and power bases.

              Consider everything from the original “food pyramid” to thalidomide to vioxx to superbugs to the early version of the MMR vaccine which caused fatal/near fatal fevers amongst infants.

              But now in this modern age, THIS TIME we have it RIGHT…you can trust us on that!!!

              • NickS

                :roll:

                Oh to be able to send you to Dunedin to do a history and philosophy course…

              • NickS

                History and philosophy of Science course that is /d’oh

                • Colonial Viper

                  Shall I keep going?

                  FDA approved breast implants full of industrial silicon, meningitis vaccines which only protect infants for months (if that) not the school years parents were promised, 20 to 30 747’s full of patients dying daily in USA hospitals due to problems directly caused by the medical care given, huge swathes of medical literature absolutely untrustworthy because it turns out they were ghostwritten, and the medical researchers named on the papers simply paid to put their names there.

                  Shall we keep going?

                  For over a century, standard procedure with any medical patient was to bleed them, automatically tripling the risk of death, medical doctors of the day saw their patients dying day after day everyday, but kept doing it because all their peers were doing it and refused to upset accepted practice.

                  But now you’re saying just TRUST US we have our facts and figures right THIS TIME?!

                  I wonder what your PHILOSOPHY course going to say about this?

        • weka 4.2.2.3

          Great comment macro.

          “Finally fluorosilicates are not the same as fluoride. They are supposed to disassociate at pH of 7 but the human gut has a pH of around 2-3. And at that level of acidity few Fluoride ions are available.”

          Can you please explain what that means in lay terms?

          • NickS 4.2.2.3.1

            Not really, the lack of links backing him up is the give away, as per usual…

            As for the disassociation stuff, hydrogen atoms attached to an acidic functional molecule or group have given pH thresholds before they disassociate from it to form a H+ ion. Same thing happens with bases.

            • weka 4.2.2.3.1.1

              I asked for an explanation a lay person could understand.

              • NickS

                Sometimes, you have to google/wiki a term if you don’t know what it means :P

                • weka

                  If you aren’t able to explain in lay terms that’s fine, but please don’t complain about lay people not having enough understanding of science.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It basically means that the fluorosilicates need a neutral pH level to split up from the silicon based part of the chemical, and therefore make free fluoride ion parts available to the body.

                    But the state of the stomach is highly acidic, so fuck all of the fluorosilicates actually split up, so in reality only a tiny amount of the fluoride ions are freed up and available to the body.

                    Hey weka, you know you mentioned that thing about ‘scientific arrogance’?

                    In action, right here on The Standard, by certain know it all types.

                  • Populuxe1

                    Yet more evidence that scientific literacy in this country is woefully poor. No wonder crackpots (anti-caccination, anti-flouridation, anti iodised salt, chemtrails, homeopaths etc) get traction.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Stop whinging mate. You might want genetic material and proteins sourced from aborted fetuses or animal organs injected into your blood, but not everyone feels the same way.

                    • NickS

                      You might want genetic material and proteins sourced from aborted fetuses or animal organs injected into your blood

                      [citation needed]

                      Also – random bits of DNA/RNA floating unprotected by certain proteins, tend to get digested up parts of the innate immune system (DICER is one) and cell membranes typically have to be treated to become permeable to DNA/RNA. Which is why viruses are often used to do genetic transforms

                    • NickS

                      Knowledge decays if you don’t have cause to use it and so strengthen the neural connections that allow you to recall and remember it. And most people don’t need to understand pH disassociation or basic toxicology stuff.

                      Probably the only way around it in the longterm is decent documentaries being easily available that provide straight forward, easy to get and interesting science education. Which TVNZ seems to have abandoned making use, instead going for reality TV doco’s.

                  • NickS

                    More aiming for you to try and do some research :P

          • Macro 4.2.2.3.2

            This is part of the presentation I gave References are appended:
            “It is simply assumed that all fluoride compounds dissociate entirely into fluoride ions, and harmless hydration compounds of silicon. Pure fluoride solutions do behave relatively predictably, both over the permissible pH range of municipal water supplies and in the extremely acidic environment of the human stomach. However, fluorosilicates dissociate in highly complex fashion in water, with an amazing range of complex derivatives forming at different pH values, none of whose toxicological properties has been adequately investigated. When fluorosilicates are added to water they dissociate to form fluorosilicate ions with two negative electrical charges, accompanied by either two individual ions of hydrogen H+ (from fluorosilicic acid) or of sodium (Na+) (from sodium fluorosilicate). The individual elements, silicon (Si) and fluorine (F) in the fluorosilicate ion cannot move independently – at neutral pH they act as the complex substance fluorosilicate.
            Fluorosilicates are therefore emphatically not identical to ‘fluorides’. In fact, fluorosilicates should not be referred to as ‘silicofluoride’, because this improperly implies that they are fluorides and have similar properties. This argument is often used to mislead audiences into believing that fluorosilicates are chemically interchangeable with true fluorides, and that adding fluorosilicate to drinking water is merely a ‘topping up’ process to augment fluoride concentrations below the ‘optimal’ level for preventing tooth decay.
            When simple fluorides are dissolved in water, they are in the ionic form, F+, they remain so at all relevant pH levels, whether in pure water or in the acidity of the stomach.
            At around pH of 7, approximately 97% of the fluorine in fluorosilicate added to the water is present in the form of ionised fluoride, F+ . At the very slightly acidic pH of 6, only 27% of the fluorine in fluorosilicate is present as fluoride – the rest is associated with other ions, and forms a number of complex and unstable compounds and ions that change over variable periods of time and at different pH values. At the acidity of the human stomach – pH2 to 3 – the proportion of fluorine atoms that are present as fluoride ions changes dramatically, and effectively no fluorine atoms are present in the ionic state.
            In other words, the ingestion of water fluoridated, with hydro fluorosilicic acid has unknown consequences for dental health, because the chemistry is not known.

            7. Crosby NT; “Equilibria of Fluosilicate Solutions with Special Reference to The Fluoridation of Public Water Supplies”; J Appl Chem; v19; pp 100-102, 1969
            8. Busey RH et al; “Fluorosilicicte Equilibria in Sodium Chloride Solutions from 0 to 60 o C”; Inorg. Chem V 19; pp 758-761, 1980.↵
            9. Urbansky, E.T., and Schock, M.R.. Can fluoridation affect water lead levels and lead neurotoxicity? In: American Water Works Association Annual Conference Proceedings, Denver, CO, June 11-15, 2000↵
            10. Westendorf J. Die Kinetik der Acetylcholinesterasehemmung und die Beeinflussung der Permeabilitat von Erythrozxytenmembranen durch Fluroid und Fluorokomplex-Jonen. Doctoral Dissertation, Hamburg Universitat Hamburg Fachbereich Chemie, 1975.↵
            11. Thomsen, Milton S, High-silica fluosilicic acids : specific reactions and the equilibrium with silica, Am, Chem, Soc. 74 : 1690-1692

        • NickS 4.2.2.4

          Secondly there are 36 studies that show a correlation between fluoridation and reduced scores on standard IQ tests.

          :roll:

          What you fail to mention is that claim only holds up with concentrations of fluoride much higher than what is found with water fluoridate for health reasons, where either fluoride is leaching from surrounding rocks or is contamination from mining/industry. So yeah, ci-fucking-tation please.

          See this for the basics: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3491930/

          • NickS 4.2.2.4.1

            One more paper:
            http://cof-cof.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Ding-et-al-The-Relationships-Between-Low-Levels-Of-Urine-Fluoride-On-Children%E2%80%99s-Intelligence.pdf

            There are some effects with lower concentrations though, but for therapeutic purposes, an effective concentration of 0.5mg/L appears to have no harm associated with it. Though Ding et al tie harm to levels of visible dental fluorosis, so I don’t have exact concentration thresholds to cite, and indicate that at moderate and above levels of fluorosis there are statistically significant decreases in average IQ scores. Small, but detectable ones.

            Quite a nice bit of work actually, as the study faced numerous statistical issues due to the environmental and genetic factors that lead to large variation in IQ, plus none even sample sizes.

            • Colonial Viper 4.2.2.4.1.1

              just get the fluoride you need for your teeth from brushing ffs.

              Oh you already do that every day? Well, you get as much fluoride as your body can possibly find useful already.

              • Populuxe1

                Wouldn’t it be nice if that was the case in all homes in NZ, but nah.

                • Colonial Viper

                  So, maybe only 90% of households use fluoridated toothpastes regularly. What’s your point?

              • NickS

                Basically from what I can remember (me need sleep) tooth paste + fluoridated water = a lot less cavities than either alone.

                Probably because the fluoride ions have better availability to be incorporated via drinking, than from the brief encounter that tooth paste provides. Although using tooth paste does allow for more direct contact with surface enamel, in particular, erosions forming in the enamel.

                /shrug

                Moar hunting for papers methinks…

              • NickS

                Well, you get as much fluoride as your body can possibly find useful already.

                [citation needed]

                • Macro

                  Are your teeth still being formed Nick?
                  Actually if you read the toothpaste tube it says – “do not swallow”. Which I guess is a let out for Colgate et el
                  By the way the active ingredient in fluoridated tooth paste is NaF which as I have referred to above, does provide fluoride ions.

                  But if you are older than 12, your secondary teeth have largely formed. Topical application is the most effective treatment from here on in.
                  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2179341
                  http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-0528.1973.tb01056.x/abstract;jsessionid=8511226BCA8824E5FF983F4A01126D05.d02t01?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

                  • NickS

                    Oh how cute, instead citing recent research/review, let alone papers that aren’t stuck behind paywalls, thus meaning readers can actually read the frakking paper, instead you pick two abstracts out.

                    Why is that a problem? Abstracts only provide the conclusion(s), leaving people without sufficient information to understand how and why the conclusion(s) were reached, along with lacking vital background information.

                    Better stuff to read:
                    http://hrcak.srce.hr/file/44663
                    – page 8 has the info relevant to this thread, otherwise the paper deals with CaF formation and it’s role in fluoride incorporation into the enamel, providing extremely key info on the role of fluoride therapy and it’s mechanisms. Importantly, it concludes that the anti-microbial properties of the F- when disassociated from the enamel plays a major role in caries prevent. However, it doesn’t discuss fluoridation of water, but a synthesis can be drawn from the paper that in place of topical treatment, water fluoridation probably would have significant effects on caries prevention. Albeit not as significant is tooth brushing is not involved, as this action helps to break up bacterial plaques.

                    Very interesting paper imho, took sweet fuck all time to find as well, so why the fuck didn’t you use this one? Oh right – you probably just pulled the papers from a online list, instead of bothering to read teh fucking literature and actually look for key papers T_T

                    There’s also this one:
                    http://cof-cof.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Pizzo-et-al-Community-Water-Fluoridation-And-Caries-Prevention-A-Critical-Review-Clinical-and-Oral-Investigations-14-Feb-2007.pdf
                    From the abstract:

                    The aim of this paper was to critically review the current role of community water fluoridation in preventing dental caries. Original articles and reviews published in English language from January 2001 to June 2006 were selected through MEDLINE database. Other sources were taken from the references of the selected papers. For the past 50 years community water fluoridation has been considered the milestone of caries prevention and as one of the major public health measures of the 20th century. However, it is now accepted that the primary cariostatic action of fluoride occurs after tooth eruption. Moreover, the caries reduction directly attributable to water fluoridation have declined in the last decades as the use of topical fluoride had become more widespread, whereas enamel fluorosis has been reported as an emerging problem in fluoridated areas. Several studies conducted in fluoridated and nonfluoridated communities suggested that this method of delivering fluoride may be unnecessary for caries prevention, particularly in the industrialized countries where the caries level has became low. Although water fluoridation may still be a relevant public health measure in poor and disadvantaged populations, the use of topical fluoride offers an optimal opportunity to prevent caries among people living in both industrialized and developing countries.

                    Time to find – less than 10 minutes.

                    Relevance? Smoking fucking high per the bolded piece.

                    Did you find it? Nope.

                    Back to undergrad science courses for you methinks so you can learn how to use teh literature, hopefully. Instead of picking the odd paper up in hope of relevance in a scattershot, slipshod fashion :roll:

                    Also:
                    http://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=fluoridation+review&btnG=&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5
                    ’tis a freaking goldmine of information, use the “all (number) versions” link to hunt down pdfs. For which the synthesis for the lazy is as follows:

                    1) Fluoridation safety is strongly linked to dosage level, with dosage of below around 1.5mg/L having mainly light dental fluorosis associated with it. Higher concentrations of fluoride are however linked to decreases in IQ and other health concerns, highlighting the need to deal with highly fluoridated public water sources. Cancer-fluoride linkage only holds at very high dosage levels, otherwise no statistical linkage in environmental studies at theraputic dosage levels.

                    2) Fluoridation of public water supplies does have a high efficacy in dealing with dental decay in populations where topical treatment with tooth paste is low or absent. Thus in much of the developed world it’s not entirely needed unless there is a high rate in dental caries within the population. Note however, that even in the developed world some population segments are at high risk due to socio-economic policies, although these could be dealt with via public education and free health care and thus a cost/benefit analysis is needed in each population case*.

                    3) Ethically – if going with the actual science, rather than pseudo-science for basis, the main issue comes down to the ethics of mass-medication, which for the cost/benefit frame I use comes out rather simply e.g. For low dosing of fluoride in the water supply leads in high dental decay populations looks rather good per reducing pain and suffering from tooth decay. Low decay populations don’t needed it, in fact, it would probably be more beneficial to educate the public on dental health further, targeting high-risk population segments.

                    Other frameworks however have obviously different views, depending on how they way emotional/ideological views, as libertarian systems will usually see it as a no, no matter the cost/benefits due to holding the individuals choice high. Nature-based systems will usually focus on the perceived toxicity of fluoride, irrespective of the actual toxicity data. Utilitarian views will range from yes to no, depending on perceived benefits vs social costs and lastly, political frameworks will take into account vox pop, in order to avoid loosing votes, unless swayed by other systems… This however is just a brief, back of the napkin sketch, as ethics and in this case bioethics is extremely rich in terms of arguments around mass medication. So go forth and google it :P

                    ____________________________________________________
                    *e.g. Personally, fluoridation would have probably saved me a lot of pain, as my episode of insomnia a 5 years back cost me two very painful wisdom teeth + subsequent extraction due to difficulties in carrying for self. Still some issues, but will generally brush teeth more often that in previous years due to effects of anti-depressants.

                  • NickS

                    And I so totes <3 how you haven't responded to the bit on fluoride toxicity, which puts your IQ-fluoride claims in fucking context as false for standard therapeutic fluoridation fluoride concentrations.

                    • UglyTruth

                      For some fluoride-IQ context, a friend related how to me how her son was noticeably quiet and withdrawn after he was given fluoride treatment at school. He had no previous exposure to fluoride from water or fluoridated toothpaste.

                    • Arfamo

                      Somehow I don’t think that’s enough to settle the argument though. It amounts to a survey of one without knowing what other factors need to be taken into account, and it’s not clear what becoming quiet and withdrawn tells us about IQ.

                    • NickS

                      Note – UglyTruth is a complete crank, see the site linked to in their name for the whys/lulz.

                      And frankly that anecdote only has one use, to show beautifully how you don’t understand how to science, let alone basic statistical methodology. i.e. the child could be withdrawn because of a variety of reasons, but instead of bothering with such a basic empirical start, you instead assume that the fluoride treatment did it and somehow think withdrawn behaviour is linked to IQ :roll:

                    • UglyTruth

                      “you don’t understand how to science”

                      Misrepresentation fail, NickS. I didn’t suggest that a single anecdote is science.

                      “the child could be withdrawn because of a variety of reasons”

                      Given his sudden exposure to fluoride and the documentation of Nazis using it to make people docile, it is the simplest explanation for his change in behaviour.

                      “somehow think withdrawn behaviour is linked to IQ”

                      Misrepresentation fail #2, NickS. I didn’t imply that.

                    • NickS

                      Except you said this:

                      For some fluoride-IQ context,

                      Lulz. For when put in the context of your post, it’s pretty clear you’re suggesting there was a link, heck, you all but shout it out with the last sentence :chuckle:

                    • UglyTruth

                      If you read the context it’s reasonable to interpret my posts as implying that there is a link between fluoride, withdrawn behaviour and IQ.

                      But fluoride was a separate point when you said that I thought that the was a link between withdrawn behaviour and IQ, thus your misrepresentation.

                      “you instead assume that the fluoride treatment did it” — this is about fluoride
                      “and somehow think withdrawn behaviour is linked to IQ” — this isn’t about fluoride.

                      The point is that the use of fluoride by the Nazis to induce docile behaviour is documented from two sources (Major George Racey Jordan, and Charles Eliot Perkins), and begin withdrawn and being docile can look the same.

                      The anecdote is consistent with the historical use of fluoride by the Nazis.

  5. joe90 5

    Standing Man.

    At around 8pm in Istanbul, one man stood in Taksim Square…and continued to stand. Within hours, #duranadam, or #standingman, was trending worldwide on Twitter. Police broke up the protest at 2am. Watch the progression..

    • aerobubble 5.1

      Its repeating history. Depression economics and banning alcohol. Turkey stupid leader can’t understand that bring civil strife to his nation when so many of his neighbors are unstable, or positively imploding… …shakes head… …how is that strong leadership. The whole point of moderate alcohol drinking is about relaxing, sitting down, letting your guard down, letting your fears out and meeting minds, so finding the bridge between what looks like a chasm.

      Religion dogma is not a way to run a country, Turkey is doomed while this instability remains in power, what a moron.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        And lets get involved in the Syrian War on the side of Sunni Muslims while we’re at it

        • Jenny 5.1.1.1

          Another disgusting slur from CV to justify his continued support for dictatorship and mass murder.

          Divide and rule the oldest trick in the book.

          Colonial Viper said in a previous thread that using gas weapons against the insurgents wouldn’t be a war crime in his opinion. People like Colonial Viper are a partner to murder. And I had thought that comment was low.

          Now CV has reached a new low expounding sectarian divide and rule tactics to support of the Syrian dictatorship.

          And lets get involved in the Syrian War on the side of Sunni Muslims while we’re at it

          Colonial Viper

          We all know which side Colonial Viper is on. He has stated it several times.

          Colonial Viper has come out openly on the side of the regime. Even going as far as to malign the reputation of eyewitness reporters like Anita McNaught.

          What is it with you CV?

          You have never been to Syria. You have never met the Syrian people. But you support their oppressor. You are either profoundly ignorant, or deeply racist in your dismissal of the roots of the Syrian revolt and the whole Arab Spring as a Western plot.

          Either way CV you have no credibility.

          The revolt against the tyrant arose from all sectors of society secular, religious, Christian and Moslem. The first protests got their impetus from the Arab spring and from a deep resentment of the extreme neo liberal reforms and government privatisations implemented by Assad that impoverished the population while rewarding those in Assad’s closest circle, many who gained personal ownership of state assets.

          The original demand of the protesters were demands for mild democratic reforms toward more democracy. Instead of granting the relatively minor demands, Assad responded with massive state violence to suppress the protests. A decision he probably has cause to regret now.

          Aside from the massive military support from the neo-Stalinist Putin. It is Assad’s ability to exploit religious differences, to divide the population against each other that has preserved his regime.

          In the past Assad presented a secular and progressive face and was toasted by the West. One of only a few foreigners and only Arab leader to have stayed as a guest in Buckingham Palace. But faced with a mass peaceful revolt, almost overnight Assad performed an amazing transformation from secular to Shiite. Posing as saviour of the Alawite minority he armed and incited the notorious Shabiha death squads to attack the protests and murder the protesters, backed up by police and military. The crimes committed by the Shabiha in the name of the dictator have ensured the Alawite community are now in death lock with the regime. Which has made this dispute so intractable and sectarian.

          Through the two years of this revolt,Colonial Viper’s support for this dictatorship has been unwavering. Though his justifications for supporting mass murder have changed.

          First off Assad was fighting a just war against US and Western Imperialists.

          After that CV tried to depict Assad’s war against his people as a war against foreign Islamist terrorists linked to Al Qaeda

          Following the dictators script, CV is now depicting the civil war in Syria as a religious dispute between Sunni and Shia. This is just CV’s latest excuse for supporting autocracy and dictatorship and belittling the Arab Spring the greatest mass people’s movement in recent (if not all) history.

          This apologist for what amounts to fascism, should be ashamed for his continued support of a mass murderer and war criminal.

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1

            Oh fuck off Jenny.

            You’re supporting a proxy war of foreign powers and foreign Islamist fighters inside Syria and still trying to frame it as a popular revolt by the citizens.

            What did you come down in the last shower? Or do you just parrot lines from CNN?

            Do you honestly really think life in Egypt and Libya is actually better for the citizens, after their (phoney) “Arab Spring” “revolts”? After Al Qaeda has set up base in Libya and the Muslim Brotherhood has gained massive political power in Egypt?

            The USA has wanted to take down Syria for over a decade as part of the list of nations it wanted done away with – General Wesley Clark said that explicitly – and here you are shit swallowingly stupid and gullible enough to support it.

            German authorities fear return of battle hardened Islamist extremists from Syria to Germany

            http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/german-officials-fear-return-of-islamist-fighters-in-syria-a-896745.html

            I guess now you think the German mainstream media are also running propaganda for Assad?

            You really are fucking thick.

          • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.2

            Hey Jenny, do you support the arming of foreign Islamist fighters in Syria with American supplied heavy weapons and training?

            • Jenny 5.1.1.1.2.1

              Yet to happen. Your abuse is getting more hysterical and extreme.

              I wonder why. Maybe you would like to tell us.

              Do you support Assad because it is Labour Party policy?

              Did you also support our involvement in Afghanistan for the same reason?

              Your support for the mass murder of the Syrian people from the air can have no moral justification.

              Over 30 thousand disappeared even before the hostilities began.

              Syria a safe haven for CIA rendition for the purposes of torture.

              While at the same time Assad is celebrated in the West as a moderate and put up for a night in Buckingham Palace by the Queen.

              What fine company you keep.

              • Jenny

                Some other questions for you CV.

                And aren’t you worried that your open support for massive blood shed unleashed by the Assad regime, might put your Labour Party membership in Jeopardy?

                Now that the Turkish Spring has broken out, do you also support Prime Minister Erdogan’s harsh crackdown on the right to peaceful protest?

                Noting that Erdogan has claimed that his crackdown is based on the West’s similar crackdown on the Occupy Wall Street movement?

                If such a protest movement broke out here. Against let’s say, the Labour led government’s determination to proceed with Deep Sea Oil drilling. (A quite possible occurrance). Would you support the same sort of massive state violence against the protesters as unleashed in Turkey?

                • Colonial Viper

                  Edrogan is one of the main supporters for expanding NATOs military intervention in Syria, as well as acting as a logistics and advisory base for the foreign rebels fighting in Syria.

                  He is supporter of Armed regime change in a neighbouring country while suppressing protestors in his own.

                  You basically have no fucking clue, and stop trying to be my spokesperson on issues when you have no fucking clue.

                  • Jenny

                    Why CV can’t you answer the questions?

                    Why CV do you support mass murder?

                    Why CV do you support a psychopath who murders his own people from the air?

                    Why CV do you support a torture state that provided a safe haven for CIA renditions?

                    There has been no Nato intervention in Syria.

                    Why CV do you keep telling such obvious lies?

                    Why CV do you think it wouldn’t be a war crime if Assad gassed his opponents to death?

                    Why CV do you denigrate the Arab Spring?

                    Are you CV of the opinion that only white predominantly Christian people are prepared to struggle and die for democracy and freedom?

                    Considering your open support for the Assad regime, I think these are fair questions, why CV can’t you answer them?

                    Why CV do you reply with profanity and abuse?

                    Do you think this is fit and rational behaviour?

                    And finally why CV do you refuse to tell us whether you would or would not support the same sort of suppression of protest in this country?

                    When, not if, large protests are mounted against the Labour led coalition government’s determination to proceed with deep sea oil drilling. CV will your party in government be setting the police and the naval forces against them?

                    Why CV are you so sure that your party backs your support for bloody suppression of popular protest?

                    Is this CV what we can expect here from your government?

                    Or are you CV just one lone isolated extremist with no support at all within the Labour Party, and are in fact bringing your party into disrepute with your support for mass murder and torture?

  6. Seen this?

    “Is the science on fluoridation really settled?”

    (Note where this article has been published………….. )

    http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/un-doctored/2013/june-2013/18/is-the-science-on-fluoridation-really-settled.aspx

    Compare this with the statement from Professor Sir Peter Gluckman:

    http://www.pmcsa.org.nz/blog/what-is-in-the-water/

    Penny Bright

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate who OPPOSES the fluoridation of public drinking water supplies

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/?page_id=152

    • weka 6.1

      (Note where this article has been published………….. )

      Quite. Also note where and how they published it, and who it was actually written by –


      Un-edited statements from the health sector and beyond

      Is the science on fluoridation really settled?

      Queenslanders for Safe Water Air and Food Inc

      Tuesday 18 June 2013, 3:02PM

      Media release from Queenslanders for Safe Water Air and Food Inc

    • UglyTruth 6.2

      Remember, the science was supposedly settled on asbestos, leaded petrol and Vioxx, before it was shown that the science was wrong.

      Also the “settled science” of global warming.. sorry, I mean climate change.

      Strange that the science has generally been “settled” in favour of those who promote stuff that kills people.

      Carnegie-Mellon university was the leading defender of the asbestos industry. Andrew Mellon was involved in the introduction of fluoridated water.

      Dr. Robert Kehoe, defender of industry in fluoride pollution lawsuits, and proponent of water fluoridation also spent much of his career defending leaded petrol.

      http://www.fannz.org.nz/history.php

    • NickS 6.3

      :roll:

      Here’s a really fucking neat idea, how about you bother to actually read the fucking science literature?

      It’s as easy as going to http://scholar.google.co.nz/ and using search terms + looking at citations, made even easier with tabbed browsing. And usually, papers that are available to the public (look at “versions” to see if a pdf etc is available) usually discuss and review prior research.

      Reading, hard it is not.

  7. karol 7

    This is an interesting article in the Herald. David Cunliffe says Labour will be watching “like a hawk” to see if there is any dubious government involvement in the tax dispute related to Mediaworks collapse.

    Also interesting is the image that the NZH has used to accompany the article – of Parker, Cunliffe & Hipkins.

  8. Boadicea 8

    What does Parker, Cunliffe and Hipkins have in common?

    They did not accept Sky City Rugby Hospitality Box invites while the party were attacking the Nats for doing a stupod deal with Sky City.

    The three of them have a great future together if they rise above the game being orchestrated by Grant Robertson.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      interesting observation.

      • Rogue Trooper 8.1.1

        It’s alright, It’s Ok
        Oooh La La

      • Anne 8.1.2

        Interesting observation indeed, but Boadicea needs to at least supply a modicum of an explanation as to why she has made such a statement. It is presumably based on something he/she knows about or perhaps has witnessed.

        • Boadicea 8.1.2.1

          Hi Anne,

          It was a response to Karol’s remarks in 7. She remarked on the Herald story on Cunliffe’s comments on Mediaworks. And on the use of a photo of the three non-boxers. It got me thinking about how those who supported Shearer in January now feel about Shearer and the games that Grant Robertson is playing.

          Btw.
          That photo was taken at the 2011 Ellerslie Conference at which Mallard and Grant Roberton used Paddy Gower to frame Cunliffe.

          • Sam 8.1.2.1.1

            Would just be a good start if they put Cunliffe on the front bench, wouldn’t it?! That photo was interesting – and did highlight the higher performing MPs at the moment – only one of them is being left languishing. What a flamin’ waste of talent.

          • Boadicea 8.1.2.1.2

            Correction, the 2012 conference last November.
            And I’m a Celtic Queen who kicks Tory/Roman asses.

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.2.1.2.1

              May the light of your soul guide you.
              May the light of your soul bless the work that you do
              with the secret love and warmth of your heart.
              May you see in what you do the beauty of your own soul.
              May the sacredness of your work bring healing, light
              and renewal to those who work with you
              and to those who see and receive your work.
              May your work never weary you.
              May it release within you wellsprings of
              refreshment, inspiration and excitement.
              May you be present in what you do.
              May you never become lost in bland absences.
              May the day never burden.
              May dawn find you awake and alert,
              approaching your new day with dreams, possibilities and promises.
              May evening find you gracious and fulfilled.
              May you go into the night blessed, sheltered and protected.
              May your soul calm, console and renew you.

              • mac1

                Who wrote that, CV?

                Edit: just did my own research, and my suspicion was right. John O’Donohue. Funnily enough, my godmother was an O’Donohue.

          • Anne 8.1.2.1.3

            Thanks Boadicea. As you seem to have recognised, it was a genuine question. The reason I asked is because Robertson is coming to our local electorate meeting next month and I’m going to be very interested in what he says or maybe… what he doesn’t say.

    • Alanz 8.2

      “the game being orchestrated by Grant Robertson”

      Grant was ok during the Clark Administration. The H3 thing kinda was highly complimentary. Without H1 and H2, he is more like CO2.

      Having said that, he will make an effective cabinet minister but there are others more ready than him for a higher position on the front bench.

  9. Rogue Trooper 9

    On Property Investment:
    22% Australian
    20% Chinese
    9% live overseas.
    -RNZ

    • vto 9.1

      “9% live overseas”

      That is not a small number, that is a very large number that distorts the market. Cut that lot of bludgers out and watch the prices ease back. Then do it to rural land and all other land and watch capital values drop waaay back…

      … then watch the amount of work we all have to do to pay the banks interest shrink back and we wont know what to do with the extra moola in our pockets.

      High capital values of anything assist nobody but money lenders.

      This is a truth.

      • karol 9.1.1

        I suspect it’s not just the overseas resident buyers that are likely to distort the market. New residents, who acquired their money overseas in places like Aussie, the UK and China, are likely to be able to spend more than those who have resided long term in NZ.

        • karol 9.1.1.1

          PS. I thought UK buyers were up there with the Aussies and Chinese? OK not quite as high a %age.

          A BNZ-Real Estate Institute survey suggests 8% to 9% of houses are being sold to people living abroad.

          Real estate agents report that about 22% of overseas buyers, and vendors, are Australian, 20% of are Chinese and 13% are from Britain.

          BNZ chief economist Tony Alexander said more data is needed on ways to cool housing demand, such as whether to impose a tax on overseas buyers.

          He estimates half the overseas buyers are either immigrants buying before they move here, or New Zealanders returning home – especially from Australia and the United Kingdom.

    • weka 9.2

      On Property Investment:
      22% Australian
      20% Chinese
      9% live overseas.
      -RNZ

      Are the Australians and Chinese investors NZ residents? Can’t quite make sense of that.

  10. Rogue Trooper 10

    Somewhere, over the rainbow…
    -affectionately yours, Fire and Forget.

  11. Rogue Trooper 11

    Just Remember, that Death is not the end! (although…)

    • Olwyn 11.1

      Thanks for that Rogue Trooper. Just lovely, as darkness falls and the street lights come on.

  12. Morrissey 12

    After framing Arthur Allan Thomas,
    senior cops joked about it in the Mangere Hotel

    by Nicholas Jones, New Zealand Herald, 1 May 2013

    Senior police officers joked about framing Arthur Allan Thomas for the Crewe murders while drinking at a bar, says a woman who worked there.

    Queenie Edmonds said she overheard the talk while working at the Mangere Hotel 43 years ago at the time of the investigation. She heard police officers, including Bruce Hutton, who led the investigation, call Thomas a “half-wit”….

    Read more….
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10880777

    • dumrse 12.1

      Most of us read this six weeks go unless I’ve missed something new within ?

      • Morrissey 12.1.1

        Since when has this been a breaking news channel? I’ve posted up stuff about things that have happened much longer ago than six weeks ago—e.g. the Surafend massacre of 1918—and until now nobody has caviled about the time lag.

        Fair play to you, though, dumrse, I do appreciate your point. This article did appear a while ago now, but I had not seen it before. I wanted to share it with others, who probably feel exactly the same as you do.

        [lprent: we don't care about old stuff. There is a post up at present that *ends* in the recent date of 1915. What we care about is boring drones - trolls in particular. ]

        • Morrissey 12.1.1.1

          PRENT: [dyspeptic cough] What we care about is boring drones – trolls in particular. Cough, cough, snarl….

          BREEN: [looks around in bewilderment] W-w-w-w-what? You talking to ME?

          • lprent 12.1.1.1.1

            Nah. I tolerate you just as I do with most people commenting here. I tolerate differing views because I seldom *agree* with anyone. But I expect that most people are probably correct to one degree or another because almost every argument is in an area of grey. It is usually so easy to pick holes in any argument. All you have to do is to look for the areas where the data is weak or subject to differing interpretations.

            In the end everything is a question of probability and careful definition about the bounds of asserted rules. In other words, I was trained in science, and it colours everything else.

            But anyone can tell pretty easily when I target a drone. Have you ever known an actual troll to last more than a week before I start needling them? I just watch until I see them going repetitive, showing an inability to deal intelligently with others interacting with them, and acting like every half arsed troll that I have seen since 1980 when I first started playing around on computer nets at Waikato Uni. I get interested in their ability to adapt to the environmental shifts – like a moderator or sysop taking an interest in them. The ones unable to adapt usually aren’t useful to anyone else without a sharp lesson in manners.

            Admittedly there have been a few that are in the intermediate zone that I watch for longer. They can argue and oft-times pretty well. Then I’m interested in a different trait – the type of tactics they are using. If the tactics chosen disrupt the discussions or the tactic becomes too narcissistic so the discussion is all about them, then it isn’t good for the comments part of the site.

            But you’re well past that. I’d just anticipate having to warn you on the odd occasion as your enthusiasm wanders over the bounds and possibly the rare ban when you don’t pay heed to the warnings.

  13. Q Bert 13

    Cracking up at TV3’s lame arse concerted attack on the Greens and their policy idea of devaluing the dollar somewhat by creating sovereign currency and spending it into the economy, and Jonkeys dead faced lying broken record ” The greens want to print money, and other wacko ideas…” comments, the private banks PRINT MONEY OUT OF THIN AIR EVERY DAY, you fk*n idiot, every time someone takes out a loan; it’s called double entry book keeping, and the FRACTIONAL RESERVE SYSTEM. of course he must know that, but the retarded political reporter obviously didn’t or he might have mentioned it as a point of balance. What a wank and another complete fail from mainstream media. The world economy is awash in over inflated, leveraged debt based fiat currency, hence ever increasing debt, housing bubbles and recurrent crises. It’s pretty basic, if 96 odd percent of world currency in circulation is based on debt, what are you going to pay it off with numb nuts? more debt? How are going to pay the interest on the old debt? CREATE MORE MONEY, oh but only the banks are allowed to do that at interest ! …. it’s frkn obvious. At least the Greens currency would be debt free and help our trade deficit. Good enough for every major economy in the world in recent times, but for Key …. WHOA THAT’S WACKO MAN!!! What a god forsaken tosser. At least the greens have got some vision you gormless corporate bum boy nonce.! Anyway that’s my rant for the day.

  14. Paul 14

    Tracy Barnett
    “It’s a dark day for New Zealand – and strangely, no one has noticed. No one.
    ……..
    New Zealand has established a horrible new precedent: We have now said to the world we don’t have to honour the international laws we have pledged to uphold. Countries around the world who have asylum numbers in the tens of thousands annually look at us, confounded.

    I’m not sure what is more frightening: Now that this precedent has fallen, how easily others will crumble too. Or, in our innocence, that we keep telling ourselves it will never happen here.

    Wake up. It has just begun.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10891405

  15. Paul 15

    Tracy Barnett
    “It’s a dark day for New Zealand – and strangely, no one has noticed. No one.
    ……..
    New Zealand has established a horrible new precedent: We have now said to the world we don’t have to honour the international laws we have pledged to uphold. Countries around the world who have asylum numbers in the tens of thousands annually look at us, confounded.

    I’m not sure what is more frightening: Now that this precedent has fallen, how easily others will crumble too. Or, in our innocence, that we keep telling ourselves it will never happen here.

    Wake up. It has just begun.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10891405

  16. Paul 16

    Tracy Barnett
    “It’s a dark day for New Zealand – and strangely, no one has noticed. No one.
    ……..
    New Zealand has established a horrible new precedent: We have now said to the world we don’t have to honour the international laws we have pledged to uphold. Countries around the world who have asylum numbers in the tens of thousands annually look at us, confounded.

    I’m not sure what is more frightening: Now that this precedent has fallen, how easily others will crumble too. Or, in our innocence, that we keep telling ourselves it will never happen here.

    Wake up. It has just begun.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10891405

  17. North 17

    Premature perhaps, because The Vote has only just started, but I’m compelled to my keyboard by the spectacle of the well off, junk-blinged Rankin (down to lack of taste, not lack of money) making nought of the impact of multi-generational poverty. While having a side bet with a throwaway acknowledgment that “Oh Yes, poverty’s a terrible thing.”

    Fuck’n wannabee bitch ! Wear the mocassins of poverty in 2013 you right wing, thirsty for power baggage !

  18. Paul 18

    Celia Lashley amazing on Child Poverty on the Vote.

    • weka 18.1

      Oooh, forgot about that, and QoT’s tweeting…

      (Lashlie is awesome everytime I’ve heard her speak).

    • xtasy 18.2

      Paul – Yes there are still some “real people” out there, and she is one of them.

      Too many follow the misguided commercial and self centred agenda, faces full of make up, dressing up to please, trying to flirt with the boss, to get a pay-rise and what else goes on. There is much mental, emotional and spiritual prostitution out there now, and the commercial advertising drives it further by the day, many know no other values, but that.

      And then the religious nutters, brainwashed to death, not dissimilar to radical fascists like the Nazis and Hitler Youth were, not for the same cause of course, but to “serve” to whosover chooses to “lead” and exploit them.

      What the hell has become of this society, what has become of the people on this planet???

  19. North 19

    Celia Lashlie…….you bring tears to my eyes.

    And you Hannah Tamaki make me want to puke you outrageous bitch ! Yeah, you know all the bad stuff, just like Bling Girl Christine……you’re as rich as fuck by virtue of being married to the Charlatan Supreme Bishop. And complicit in the fraud he engages to pay for your bling and your bullshit hair. How much did your hairdresser cost at the last coiff’ Baby ? $280…….$350 ? How much work you had done on the face Darling ? How much did that cost ?

    Know wonder this country’s fucked !

    No Hannah, YOU don’t buy your whanau gifts. The tithers in the Destiny Church buy your whanau the gifts you give. Maggot !

    “Get my husband on the show if you wanna ask those questions……” You mean the tithing don’t pay for your hairdos……the tithing don’t pay for your facejobs, the gifts you give to your whanau ?

    Complicit cow looking down your paid for nose at the very people you sneer at. Fuck Off !

    • Paul 19.1

      Hannah Tamaki….the hairstyle, the clothes, the utter hypocrisy of these rich out of touch …
      Yeah, money makes no difference.

    • xtasy 19.2

      The result of “The Vote” is proof enough to me, that New Zealand has a gigantic problem. That problem is a self serving, self righteous, moralistic, unsocial, betraying and divisive “middle class”!

      That is also why I have been so damned outspoken on matters, that is why I have been so critical of much of NZ society, that is why I have repeatedly been thinking that I wished I should never have come back “home”.

      It is a disgrace, it is a shame for this society, it is also partly the reason “the left” is not getting traction, because too many in the supposed “middle class” are desperately trying all to align themselves with the “coping lot”, the managing “Kiwi battlers”, more so the successful makers, the top percentages really running the show, they want to grease up and feel they will in return get protection and favours, so they do themselves not drop into hopeless poverty!

      In fact, especially in the more urban areas, the larger centres, there is a fair number of society doing OK, maybe not well, but they struggle and still manage, others do very well indeed, and they rather have a dodgy John Key run the show, than share the cake with others. Their house values go up, and they think of making a good sale and earn a tax free profit, rather than think of the wellbeing of the whole country and society. That is too many out there.

      We are facing a very divided and divisive society, that probably never existed in this country before. The bottom 20 or 25 percent have nobody, but some on the left, stand up for them. I take my hat off to Hone Harawire, who performed excellently, who said what had to be said, but still, the vote was not in his favour, and not in that cause for abolishing poverty in New Zealand.

      It is so disgraceful what New Zealand has become like. Seeing the studio filled with religious and biased Destiny Church supporters would well have tilted the rest of the public sentiment, initially 68 per cent saying it is parenting, that is the main issue for child neglect and poverty.

      People like Tamaki should be locked up for extorting 10 per cent in tithing from poor people, who will follow him and his hypocritical wife to whatever they want. Same the other churches that manipulate people, and still have too much power in this country, and moralise and participate in stigmatisation.

      Forget not the church that owns and runs Sanitarium, earning hundreds of millions tax free, and paying NO tax. So “humane” of them to donate some weet bix for low quality breakfast in schools. In Europe, especially more socially aware Scandinavia, they would not beg for corporates and churches to offer food for kids at school.

      Shame on those self righteous New Zealanders there are too many of, that is those frowning on the poor and lecturing about parenting. You are not worth to live in your own land. Go and learn poverty in Africa for a change, to understand how some too many in numbers live in parts of your YOUR own country!

      • Paul 19.2.1

        Yes the result of the vote was predictable and depressing.
        As Celia Lashley, blaming poor parenting gets middle New Zealand off the hook and so they can forget the problem.
        It also gets the 1% off the hook because the destruction they have wrought to society since the advent of neo-liberalism is ignored
        Members of the 63% are now sufficiently self-centred that the issue will only become a problem when it personally and directly affects them.
        The sheeple follow the dog whistle call……
        .

  20. North 20

    64% say poverty ain’t got stuff all to do with it. Jesus Christ ! From their bloody armchairs.

    • weka 20.1

      Yeah but you have to remember that there are whole lot of people like myself who weren’t watching because we believe it betrays kids and poor people to even ask such a stupid fucking question as they did on the programme.

      • Gosman 20.1.1

        Yeah because policy should be made for pure emotive reasons and not involve any debate whatsoever.

        • weka 20.1.1.1

          To generate useful knowledge from inquiry, you have to ask a sensible question. The question asked tonight was designed to create controversy not knowledge. It was idiotic. Poverty and parenting issues should be dealt with separately, rather than being juxtaposed as either/or.

          • Gosman 20.1.1.1.1

            In your opinion.

            • weka 20.1.1.1.1.1

              Obviously. But are you suggesting that one can generate useful knowledge by asking a stupid question?

              • Gosman

                Whether a question is stupid or not is subjective. Obviously the person asking is unlikely to think it is stupid otherwise they wouldn’t have asked it. All questions have the ability to elicit information that was unknown. In that regard no question is stupid in my mind.

        • xtasy 20.1.1.2

          Policy should be made for the well being of ALL, at least the vast majority of society, and the latter is a compromise some make, but I do NOT stand for. You are middle class self-serving traitor, as I guess, and you only “care” about “your kind of country”, not all that live in it.

          Your comments here and on other blogs betray your self serving betrayal and lies, are you really feeling “good” in the skin you were born in?

    • Gosman 20.2

      Hone Harawira lost it for his side when he admitted he and his wife were better parents and had less stresses when the lived with virtually nothing in Northland than when they had some in Auckland. Stupid guy didn’t realise what he said until too late.

      • Arfamo 20.2.1

        They combined the issues of poverty and parenting into a game show. And people treat it like it was reality and it was all the evidence and discussion that was needed. After they had heard from the people actually working on the ground with it. Jesus.

        • Gosman 20.2.1.1

          No, they treated it like a good old fashioned political debate. Of course we could do away with debating topics and just accept the views of a few select people as gospel truth on the matter. Would you prefer that?

          • Arfamo 20.2.1.1.1

            No. You are right. I just would’ve preferred a higher vote of the don’t knows. Because I feel hopelessly under-informed. And I think combining the two issues in that way is too simplistic. But it is what I expected.

          • gobsmacked 20.2.1.1.2

            Gosman, it was an hour of television (minus ads).

            What did you/we learn from it? What are you now better informed about? Examples?

            • Gosman 20.2.1.1.2.1

              There was lots to learn.

              I learnt that Hone Harawira actually believes that having money can make raising children more difficult rather than easier.

              I learnt that the poverty line is $30,000 income for a family of four after housing costs have been taken in to account.

              I learnt that many of the proposed solutions to Child poverty are essentially turning back the clock to some perceived golden age in NZ pre 1984.

              I learnt that many New Zealanders don’t buy into the overly emotive arguments that people use in this area.

      • weka 20.2.2

        “Hone Harawira lost it for his side when he admitted he and his wife were better parents and had less stresses when the lived with virtually nothing in Northland than when they had some in Auckland. Stupid guy didn’t realise what he said until too late.”

        Poverty takes many forms. It’s not the lack of money that’s the point, it’s the lack of resources that enable one to live beyond constant survival stress. I can well imagine that someone might do better on less money if they had other things supporting them (eg family and community support, lower stress, better environment etc). But the fact that someone in that situation does better doesn’t mean that everyone on a low income can do better. You’ve really missed the point if that’s what you think.

      • xtasy 20.2.3

        Hone did also imply he and his wife were making extra efforts, and it was out of the extraordinary, as far as I can recall. Stop your disrespecful hate campaign against one of the very few politicians in this country, who even cares. Get your Dunne Done Job to the surface, hey, what a self righteous prick is he, and also Banks, the dodger, liar and criminal.

        Dunne dared to claim on Radio Live tonight, he was being persecuted, no other party was expected to deliver the kind of evidence of membership as UF, but on Checkpoint, RNZ, it was made clear, that all parties have the same rules, only Dunne tried to get away with presenting a simple spread sheet for membership proof.

        They want more proof, and the electoral commission is right. We get people like you, part of the promoters of lying private commercial media, that tell lies and misrepresent, and tell people crap.

        Get fucking honest man, and face the music. Your media and favoured people are ALL corrupt!

  21. gobsmacked 21

    I only saw the last half of The Vote, that was enough. Celia Lashlie was outstanding. It’s amazing what impact you can make on telly if you a) know about stuff b) care about stuff c) can communicate. It’s not about better media training – she just had something to say and said it (politicians -*cough* Labour caucus – please take note).

    The result is meaningless: “Do you not think that poverty isn’t a bigger issue or is it parenting or isn’t it? Text Yes and No now!” Plus, any team with Garner the bombastic bouffhead is losing from the start.

    • weka 21.1

      “It’s amazing what impact you can make on telly if you a) know about stuff b) care about stuff c) can communicate.”

      d) have deep emotional and social intelligence.

      Imagine if we had politicians with that.

      • Paul 21.1.1

        Celia Lashley for Prime Minister

      • Paul 21.1.2

        Celia Lashley for Prime Minister

      • Colonial Viper 21.1.3

        Imagine if we had politicians with that.

        Hmmmm people with those characteristics tend to run a mile.

        • weka 21.1.3.1

          It wasn’t you that said recently that politics is for hard people was it? ;-)

          (someone said it when I was pointing out that parliament is a horrible place that inherently excludes people who would bring in useful skills were it a kinder place).

          • Colonial Viper 21.1.3.1.1

            In response to some pollie being made fun of or insulted? Ahhhhh…probably :)

    • the pigman 22.1

      I think the sad reality is that he’ll cobble together the nutters, sympathizers and sycophants sometime between now and the next election. And thanks to the new precedent set by the Speaker we’ll just keep paying him like he’s leader of a party until he’s registered a new one (cheers, Dave!)

  22. Jimmie 23

    So which side was Hone on? I actually like the way he is passionate that there are things wrong with his people but at first he started off grizzling about poverty but ended up arguing for the yes vote??

    I think he would like to turn the clock back to the 70’s when many Maori were employed in out of date freezing works and other lower skilled work places (such as car and clothing factories) which lost money hand over fist.

    I actually sympathize with his view point coz for many of that generation who had worked in the same place for 20-30 years retraining into something new was just too hard.

    The question has to be how do you retrain a lost generation into a new society where stable jobs that last for 40 years don’t exist?

    • xtasy 23.1

      “I think he would like to turn the clock back to the 70′s when many Maori were employed in out of date freezing works and other lower skilled work places (such as car and clothing factories) which lost money hand over fist.”

      Jimmie – what was all that retraining about?

      Some was construction work, others was a lot of a waste of time. The construction skills came in handy for building under the credit financed property boom until 2007, but after that Maori had to go to Australia to get jobs in the area.

      Other skills were often low and even lower skilled jobs they were offered. If you only offer low-low training courses, what do you bloody expect them to perform?

      I am sure many Maori can do better than what WINZ, MSD and other agencies expect them to do.

      But would any body ever bother to engage more constructively, to work closely, to also ask the harder questions, to come as a partner and deliver? I have seen what goes on in NZ, even if it is under PC type agendas, there is always either big nanny or daddy behind it, knowing best, and stifling all incentives and initiatives.

      NZ society is like a mentally and spiritually manipulated or even “castrated” country, where few have true rights and freedoms. I know some countries never perceived as “free” which offer more true freedom than NZ offers it’s citizens.

      Time to get fair and real on matters, and face the music.

  23. A group of whistleblowers, including a number of aviation experts, have come forward in a new documentary to claim that the official explanation for the crash of TWA Flight 800 was wrong and a gas tank explosion did not bring down the flight off the coast of Long Island 17 years ago.
    However, the six whistleblowers, all part of the original investigation team, stopped short of saying the plane was shot down.
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/18/twa-flight-800-investigators-break-silence-in-new-documentary-claim-original/

    Richard Russel’s affadavit describes a radar tape which showed a non-beacon target travelling at a speed of 600 knots before the explosion. Many witnesses reported something like a missile colliding with the airliner.

  24. xtasy 25

    Just a cut and paste, on Brasil, maybe to be examined, but really, generally there is an element of truth!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIBYEXLGdSg

    Brazilians are NOT known to protest, this is SERIOUS!

    • Murray Olsen 25.1

      They protest quite a lot, especially students, but it normally turns into a party. When the people from the favelas protest, it turns into police shootings. It’s been a long time since anything on this scale has happened.

      I’m not sure what to make of it yet, but the right wing are certainly getting involved, trying to exclude the smaller left parties and pretend this is something patriotic, above parties. There are also many reported incidents of agent provocateurs.

  25. xtasy 27

    So NZ is all happy go lucky and the rest of the world is not important, right?! Maybe for some.

    Hey get a fucking life, get a fucking wake up call, while you sleep, things are happening, all over the place even in Brazil!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUcRSOiYyow

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKqk4iaMHO8

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=rio+de+janeiro+&oq=rio+de+janeiro+&gs_l=youtube.12..0l10.10113.10113.0.12793.1.1.0.0.0.0.373.373.3-1.1.0…0.0…1ac.1.11.youtube.IG7PZ9Wl7L0

    I am furious about the indifference, the slackness, the wannabe shit going on in some other places, this is REAL, it is the next best thing to what happened in 1973 Chile, maybe a game changer.

    Well, perhaps I am over courageous, but Brazilians are NOT know to go on the streets for things, this may be something they really care about. Take note, take care, take sides, and perhaps learn about Latin America and take a bloody stand!

    • xtasy 27.1

      It was not meant to say “..the best thing to what happened in 1973 in Chile”. What I meant was not that year, but the year that Allende became president of Chile, which was of course a fair bit earlier.

  26. Colonial Viper 28

    Milan court sentences Dolce and Gabbana to 20 months prison for tax fraud

    Yes, that D&G.

    :shock:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-19/dolce-and-gabanna-sentenced-20-months-jail-hundreds-millions-tax-evasion

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    Tertiary Education Union | 01-10
  • Vic students to leave NZUSA under VSM cloud
    Student leaders around New Zealand will meet in two weeks to discuss the future of student representation after the decision made last week by the Victoria University Students’ Association (VUWSA) to give one year’s notice terminating their membership of the...
    Tertiary Education Union | 01-10
  • Collective agreements get more pay rises
    Does it pay for you to be on a collective agreement rather than an individual agreement, asks CTU economist Bill Rosenberg? The evidence available suggests that yes, workers on collective agreements get bigger and more frequent pay rises. They may...
    Tertiary Education Union | 01-10
  • Maybe you’re not cut out for this kind of work
    I attended a great buddies wedding in the bay of islands recently. It was everything […] The post Maybe you’re not cut out for this kind of work appeared first on Connected....
    Potentia | 01-10
  • Maybe you’re not cut out for this kind of work
    I attended a great buddy’s wedding in the Bay of Islands recently. It was everything […] The post Maybe you’re not cut out for this kind of work appeared first on Connected....
    Potentia | 01-10
  • 2014 – Ongoing jobless tally
    . . Continued from: 2013 – Ongoing jobless tally So by the numbers, for this year, January OceanaGold/Macraes Mine: 146 redundancies Fitzroy Yachts: 100 redundancies OceanaGold: 76 redundancies Tenix: 15 redundancies February Goodman Fielder: 125 redundancies Pacific Steel Group: 70-90 redundancies...
    Frankly Speaking | 01-10
  • 2014 – Ongoing jobless tally
    . . Continued from: 2013 – Ongoing jobless tally So by the numbers, for this year, January OceanaGold/Macraes Mine: 146 redundancies Fitzroy Yachts: 100 redundancies OceanaGold: 76 redundancies Tenix: 15 redundancies February Goodman Fielder: 125 redundancies Pacific Steel Group: 70-90 redundancies...
    Frankly Speaking | 01-10
  • Media malice
    There has been a lot of talk, over on the Standard and elsewhere, about media bias.  The election was lost because of it.  Cunliffe's leadership ruined because of it.  The Scottish independence referendum lost because of it.  The media are...
    Left hand palm | 01-10
  • How to Create a Divided Society: New Plymouth’s Maori Seat
    Last week New Plymouth District Council opted to create a Maori ward for the next local government election. That means local Maori who choose to go on a Maori-only role get to elect a representative directly to the council. Everybody...
    Gareth’s World | 01-10
  • Trickle Down Economics? No way. Rather it’s wealth capture by the sel...
    If You Look At One Graph About Inequality Look At This!Henning MeyerYou might have heard about recent reports stating that global inequality is decreasing. This is a nice example of constructing the comparison according to the result you would like to...
    the Irascible Curmudgeon | 01-10
  • A Study in Party Stability
    . In terms of long-term stability, one party above stands above all others, with the exception of personality-driven groups such as NZ First and United Future. That party is the Greens. If the Labour Party wants to look elsewhere for...
    Frankly Speaking | 01-10
  • A Study in Party Stability
    . In terms of long-term stability, one party above stands above all others, with the exception of personality-driven groups such as NZ First and United Future. That party is the Greens. If the Labour Party wants to look elsewhere for...
    Frankly Speaking | 01-10
  • PPTA’s EDUCANZ battle continues
    1 October 2014 The legislation around the government’s EDUCANZ body is so sloppy it is impossible to know what kind of monster will eventually be unleashed, says PPTA president Angela Roberts.This afternoon PPTA members voted to empower the association’s executive...
    PPTA | 01-10
  • AT’s surveillance system
    Concern erupted yesterday about whether Auckland Transport was going to by effectively spying on us all as part of a new surveillance system they are buying. Surveillance technology that uses high definition cameras and software that puts names to faces and...
    Transport Blog | 01-10
  • Deep thought vs Deep prejudice
    . . This letter to the editor appeared in The Listener, on 27 September, and caught my attention; . . Mr Dawson wrote in response to one of those typically unthinking comments which  condemned the poor for their “unbridled, reckless...
    Frankly Speaking | 01-10
  • Deep thought vs Deep prejudice
    . . This letter to the editor appeared in The Listener, on 27 September, and caught my attention; . . Mr Dawson wrote in response to one of those typically unthinking comments which  condemned the poor for their “unbridled, reckless...
    Frankly Speaking | 01-10
  • Limiting global warming to 2 °C – why Victor and Kennel are wrong
    In a comment in Nature titled Ditch the 2 °C warming goal, political scientist David Victor and retired astrophysicist Charles Kennel advocate just that. But their arguments don’t hold water. It is clear that the opinion article by Victor &...
    Real Climate | 01-10
  • New and Improved Ice Loss Estimates for Polar Ice Sheets
    In a previous post, several years ago, I discussed the various ways that we measure changes in the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets. Today, scientists still use these main methods for identifying ice changes but recent technological and data processing...
    Skeptical Science | 01-10
  • Crime Reporting Hides Reality
    The National Government has been clever at fudging data and hiding unwanted statistics. It has refused to measure the extent of child poverty, stopped independent environmental reporting and while there has been some worrying crime statistics, we only hear of...
    Local Bodies | 01-10
  • What Labour needs to hear: the 4th voice
    As he pops back and forth between New Zealand and the Pacific Islands, Shane Jones must look on himself as the luckiest of the three men who took part in the Labour leadership race just a scant 12 months ago.read...
    Pundit | 01-10
  • Extremes report 2013: NZ drought and record Aussie heat made worse by warmi...
    The latest climate extremes report finds that 9 out of 16 extreme weather events from last year were influenced by climate change. In particular, the conditions that led to New Zealand’s severe North Island drought — the worst for 41...
    Hot Topic | 01-10
  • On holiday
    Quick PSA: I won on holiday this week, which is why I'm not blogging much at all. Next week I will post once and only once on the Labour leadership contest....
    Polity | 01-10
  • World News Brief, Wednesday October 1
    Top of the AgendaAfghanistan and United States Sign Security Deal...
    Pundit | 01-10
  • Dancing Traffic Lights
    As a pedestrian it can be easy to become a bit impatient, especially when traffic lights are prioritised solely around the movement of vehicles which can leave a long wait between phases. Here’s one idea to keep people occupied while...
    Transport Blog | 01-10
  • Secure work, health and safety and pay rises
    This week the New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (the NZCTU) released their latest economic bulletin today with economist Bill Rosenberg answering the question about whether workers who have a collective employment agreement get bigger pay rises than those on...
    frogblog | 01-10
  • Shock! Horror! Wife defends husband!!!!
        In recent posts I’ve made some fairly trenchant comments about David Cunliffe, primarily about his media performance. Others, including some of his Caucus colleagues, have gone even further. The now resigned Leader of the Opposition has been under...
    Brian Edwards | 01-10
  • September ’14 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    PLEASE NOTE: Sitemeter is playing up again making it impossible to automatically get the stats for some blogs – those I list below. Maybe more bloggers will shift to StatCounter or other counter. No stats could be found for these blogs: Works...
    Open Parachute | 01-10
  • September ’14 – NZ blogs sitemeter ranking
    PLEASE NOTE: Sitemeter is playing up again making it impossible to automatically get the stats for some blogs – those I list below. Maybe more bloggers will shift to StatCounter or other counter. No stats could be found for these blogs: Works...
    Open Parachute | 01-10
  • Auckland: the world’s friendliest city
    UK travel magazine Conde Nast Traveler has just named Auckland the world’s friendliest city in its 2014 rankings. It introduces Auckland with a great photo that highlights the city’s growing urbanity: FRIENDLIEST: 1. Auckland, New Zealand Score: 86.0 (tie) We...
    Transport Blog | 01-10
  • Waterview Breakthrough
    On Monday Alice the Tunnel Boring Machine broke through at Waterview after tunnelling for the last 10 months. And here’s a video of it happening. One of the things that is really impressive is just how accurate the machine is...
    Transport Blog | 30-09
  • Fundamental incomprehension II
    Another day, and another journalist who just doesn't get it about the Greens. This time its Duncan Garner:The Green Party needs a serious rethink. For as long as they have been in Parliament, they have been a left wing party...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • An Open Letter to Green Party Supporters: Why I slagged off your Party
    Last week I called for a Bluegreen Party – an environmental party that I could in all conscience, vote for. It prompted a huge response, which confirmed to me there is a clear constituency that is not being serviced. I...
    Gareth’s World | 30-09
  • Parliament should decide
    Yesterday John Key began laying the groundwork to deploy kiwi troops to Iraq to fight in another pointless American war. And with the Labour Party distracted by its autocannibalism, its left to Winston Peters to stand up for democratic values...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • The problem with warmongers
    The problem with warmongers is they appear to have no empathy for their fellow human beings. That's because war, and the industrial complex behind it, is invariably built upon people's prejudices.History is littered with examples of prejudice being used as...
    The Jackal | 30-09
  • Australia to criminalise journalism
    Imagine this scenario: Australian spies seeking to fight domestic terrorism borrow the tactics of their American counterparts and start running agent provocateurs to "flush out" those with terrorist leanings. But an operation goes horribly wrong, and actually results in a...
    No Right Turn | 30-09
  • School funding failing vulnerable students – time for a better way?
    1 October 2014 Schools with the greatest needs get too little to meet those needs, says PPTA president Angela Roberts. The current school funding system is failing to support our most vulnerable students and this morning delegates at PPTA’s annual...
    PPTA | 30-09
  • Waiho Papa Moana Hikoi
    More than 1,000 people marched up Queen Streen in Auckland yesterday, as part of the Waiho Papa Moana Hikoi, to protest outside Sky City at the New Zealand Petroleum Summit against plans to begin deep sea oil drilling in the...
    Greenpeace NZ blog | 30-09
  • Hold fast to your Mana – Harawira
    Hone Harawira today called on the voters of Tai Tokerau to hold fast to their mana, and not be dictated to by those party leaders who have ganged together to tell them how to vote. “I call on our people...
    Mana | 18-09
  • Media Advisory – Interview availability
    This is to advise all media that Hone Harawira will be available in Auckland tomorrow, Friday the 19th of September from 7am to 4pm for interviews relating to his recent press releases. If you are interested in interviewing Mr Harawira on...
    Mana | 18-09
  • Labour stands on proud record on Suffrage Day
    Women have come a long way in the 121 years since New Zealand became the first country to give them the vote on September 19 1893, but there is still more to do, Labour’s Women’s Affairs spokesperson Carol Beaumont says....
    Labour | 18-09
  • Polling Booths asked to treat Maori voters with respect
    “Polling booths without Maori roll voting papers, Maori people not being offered assistance to vote, people getting sent from Whangarei to Wellsford to vote, Maori people getting turned away from voting because they didn’t have their ‘easy vote’ card, Maori...
    Mana | 17-09
  • Aussie Liberals embroiled in Key campaign
    John Key needs to explain why Australia’s Liberal Party is interfering in New Zealand domestic politics and is encouraging Kiwi voters across the ditch to vote for National just days out from the election, Labour’s campaign spokesperson Annette King says....
    Labour | 17-09
  • The MANA Plan for Beneficiaries and Income in Waiariki
    Median Personal Income for Waiariki is $21,700. Over 13,000 Maori who live in Waiariki rely upon a form of government benefit including the Unemployment Benefit, Sickness Benefit, Domestic Purpose Benefit and the Invalids Benefit. “If you’re lucky enough to have...
    Mana | 16-09
  • Māori development crucial to New Zealand’s future
    Labour recognises the concern of Māori about child poverty and the rising costs of living, and in Government will make a real difference to the wellbeing of whānau and iwi, Labour’s Māori Affairs spokesperson Nanaia Mahuta says. “As our Māori...
    Labour | 16-09
  • MAORI PARTY – DON’T COMPLAIN … WALK
    “If the Maori Party are serious about stopping government spying on NZ citizens then they should tell the Prime Minister to either stop doing it or they will walk away” said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau MP Hone Harawira, on...
    Mana | 16-09
  • JOHN KEY SUPPORTING LABOUR
    “There is something really sick about a National Party Prime Minister coming out in support of a Labour candidate” said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau MP, Hone Harawira, after hearing that John Key is urging voters to back Labour in...
    Mana | 16-09
  • SHUT DOWN THIS GOVT NOT KAITI WINZ – Nikora
    “I’m going to make it as hard for you to get help as I can” is Paula Bennett’s message to the people of Kaiti  said MANA candidate Te Hāmua Nikora today in response to the news that National will close...
    Mana | 16-09
  • Winegums make for better polling – Harawira
    I wanted to laugh when I saw the Native Affairs poll the other night (Hone Harawira 38%, Kelvin Davis 37%) because it was almost the same as the one they did back in 2011”, said MANA leader and Tai Tokerau...
    Mana | 16-09
  • The Leadership of MTS Lied – Harawira
    “Normally I’m happy to tell people that I was right but when I received the news about the staff cuts at Maori Television, I had nothing but sympathy for the three Maori media leaders who are going to be made...
    Mana | 16-09
  • Privileges Complaint Laid against Prime Minister – Harawira
    MANA Movement Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP Hone Harawira has today lodged a Privileges Complaint with the Speaker regarding the Prime Ministers denials in parliament that he knew anything about Kim Dotcom before 2012. “Information made public today appears...
    Mana | 15-09
  • Sharples’ new appointments are out of order
    The new appointments to the Waitangi Tribunal announced by Dr Pita Sharples this morning are completely out of order given the election is just five days away, says Labour's State Services spokesperson, Maryan Street. “This Government continues to show disdain...
    Labour | 15-09
  • MANA Movement Housing Policy
    “When families are living in cars, garages, cockroach-infested caravans and three families to a house then we have a housing crisis”, said MANA leader and MP for Te Tai Tokerau, Hone Harawira. “When you have a housing crisis for low-income...
    Mana | 15-09
  • Bigger than the Foreshore and Seabed – Sykes
    “Over the past week I have received some disturbing information that has led myself and a number of Maori lawyers to conclude that this National - Maori Party - ACT and United Future Government are going to put an end to both...
    Mana | 14-09
  • MANA wants Te Reo Māori petition fulfilled
    Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and MP for Te Tai Tokerau Annette Sykes, MANA candidate for Waiariki Te Hāmua Nikora, MANA candidate for Ikaroa Rāwhiti  “More than four decades have passed and the petition calling for Te Reo Māori in schools...
    Mana | 14-09
  • Primary focus on the critical issues
    A Labour Government will prioritise New Zealand’s agricultural sectors by recreating a Rural Affairs Minister and appointing a Primary Industry Council and a Chief Agricultural Adviser. Releasing Labour’s Primary Sector and Rural Affairs policies today, spokesperson Damien O’Connor says the...
    Labour | 12-09
  • Maori Television fears confirmed – Harawira
    ...
    Mana | 12-09
  • More ghost houses from National
    The Government’s desperate pre-election announcement of more ghost houses won’t fool Aucklanders wanting action on the housing crisis, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. “These are ghost houses, to go with National’s ghost tax cut. Families cannot live in ghost...
    Labour | 12-09
  • National bows to union pressure over travel time
    National has reluctantly bowed to pressure from unions and adopted Labour’s fair and sensible policy to pay home support workers for the time they spend traveling between clients, Labour’s Associate Health spokesperson Iain Lees-Galloway says. “This decision is long overdue...
    Labour | 12-09
  • I feel sorry for Labour Party members and supporters
    I feel really sorry for the members and supporters of the Labour Party as they watch their caucus tear itself to shreds. And no matter what the outcome of the coming leadership race Labour members and supporters will be the...
    The Daily Blog | 01-10
  • Ummmm, why is Auckland Transport spying on Aucklanders?
    Ummm. What? Sophisticated surveillance coming to Auckland Surveillance technology that uses high definition cameras and software that can put names to faces and owners to cars is coming to Auckland. The surveillance has the capability to also scan social media...
    The Daily Blog | 01-10
  • It. Is. About. The. Economy. Stupid.
    Liam Dann does a good job of explaining the positive and negative issues looming for the NZ economy and as dairy prices plunge again overnight alongside a large Wall st sell off  and China Bank rumours begin, his case for the negative...
    The Daily Blog | 01-10
  • Don’t think of it as reinvading Iraq, think of it as redecorating Iraq
    I think some NZers view Iraq like an episode of The Block. Yes Iraq is the worst country on the street, but with a bit of elbow grease by our SAS and some great deals down at Bunnings, hey presto we...
    The Daily Blog | 01-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Trinder – Mana Maori alliance
    Most Maori you speak to on the street can’t understand why Mana movement and  Maori Party don’t combine it confuses them why Maori are divided cross benches in Parliament instead of a unified political power that represents 15% of the...
    The Daily Blog | 01-10
  • Party members and affiliates – the real losers in Labour’s leadership f...
    Hey, wanna do a back room deal that cuts the members and affiliates out? Cunliffe must be reeling. He has lost failed Ilam candidate James Dann. It must cut as deep as the loss of Steve Gibson. Apart from providing Claire...
    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, the election res...
    Jeremy Wells’ Mike Hosking rant on Radio Hauraki: Today, the election result...
    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • The rich get richer
    Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman highlights the growing inequality in this article in the New York Times. The left wing slogan that the “the rich get richer” is a fact of almost perverse power. The most recent period of expansion in the...
    The Daily Blog | 30-09
  • A brief word on reinvading Iraq
    So after telling the country before the election that NZ would not send forces to Iraq, lo and behold now he’s won the election with a full spectrum dominance political majority, Key is suddenly now looking to join the re-invasion of...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • A brief word on the importance of ACT, Maori Party and United Future to Nat...
    I’m a far right wing clown who attacks tax money going on anything collective, gimmie some cash and privilege.  One of the great successes of National has been to implement hard right policy but have it sold as moderate. For some NZers,...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Labour’s Angst
    Was Labour’s predictably low vote David Cunliffe’s fault? Was it policy? Was it something else that has aroused perceptions of electoral carnage? My analysis of the numbers suggests that, as uncertain voters made up their minds, there was a late...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Information wars: Gaza as “the last taboo”, the threat of mass surveill...
    “When the truth is replaced with silence” wrote the soviet dissident Yevgeni Yevtushenko, “the silence is a lie.” There has been a silence these past months full of noise, static and sound bites of those in power justifying their violence,...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • When the media say they covered Dirty Politics – did they?
    I was watching The Nation in the weekend, and watched the defenders of NZ media up against Minto telling him he was wrong in his claims of media bias and that the media covered Dirty Politics. I laughed. When the...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG – P Campbell – To the Left with love
    A week after the general election results I feel wrung out emotionally, having been through the disappointment, depression and anger of seeing  another right wing government elected overwhelmingly by winning support from the parts of NZ that will never benefit...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – I will be the new Labour Leader!
    One week after the election, while I was still waiting to be consulted about contributing to the review on what went wrong, what do you know? There is a leadership challenge. So instead of opting for a united, thoughtful and...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Pat O’Dea – A Prescient Post
    A very prescient pre-election post by Martyn Bradbury tells us why the Labour Party are at war now. “The NZ First-Labour Party attack strategy against Internet MANA better work” Despite Martyn Bradbury warning them this Right Wing strategy “Better Work”...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Rolinson – W(h)ither Labour (!/?)
    There’s an old saying that success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan. Not so in the Labour Party, wherein soul-crushing defeat on a scale unseen since 1925 definitely has many fathers (and more than a few mothers and...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • At the end of the day…
    At the end of the day…...
    The Daily Blog | 29-09
  • Cynicism towards Key’s sudden desire to help children in poverty
    Cynicism towards Key’s sudden desire to help children in poverty...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Internet MANA the election and the media
    I’ve been very critical of media reporting of Internet MANA during the election campaign and not surprised at the predictable response from representatives of the corporate media establishment. I wasn’t going to carry this further but was asked at the...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Rachel Jones – A superficial discourse analysis of a superfic...
    On Sunday there was a story about Paddy Gower and his detached retina in the Herald on Sunday. Really? I hear you ask. Really? Yes, really. Pam Corkery will have sprayed toast crumbs over her dressing gown. The reporter has become...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Terrorising Australia’s Muslim population
    We should be suspicious when 800 police conduct “terror” raids across Australia, but only one person is charged with a relevant terrorism offence (of which we know few details). We should be suspicious of the lurid tales of terrorists planning...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • Another Labour leader has resigned and as per usual, the media lost its min...
    Another Labour leader has resigned and as per usual, the media lost its mind. I know the Labour party has its problems and I’m not even going to try to prescribe what should be done about it. But what I...
    The Daily Blog | 28-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Anjum Rahman – Loyalty, Leadership and the Labour Party
    My first after the election and I can only say I’m feeling pretty sad.  It was a terrible result, and feels even more so knowing the number of volunteers hours, hard work & sacrifice made by so many people who...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • A Study in Party Stability
    . In terms of long-term stability, one party above stands above all others, with the exception of personality-driven groups such as NZ First and United Future. That party is the Greens. If the Labour Party wants to look elsewhere for...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • Cunliffe vs Robertson – Round 2
    Much to the disappointment of the NZ Herald and other right wing pundits who have decided they would like to appoint the next Labour leader, Cunliffe has surprised by deciding to damn the Caucus and appeal directly to the members...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • The tasks before the left and labour movement
    Anyone on the left would have been disappointed at the result of the election. There was an opportunity to win, but that got lost through a combination of factors. There were tactical decisions made by Labour, the Greens and Internet-Mana...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • From Fiji’s dictatorship to ‘democracy’ – the AUT student team on t...
    Mads Anneberg’s profile on Ricardo Morris and Repúblika. David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific. THREE STUDENTS from AUT University covered Fiji’s historic “from dictatorship to democracy” general election this month. While the election arguably legitimised Voreqe Bainimarama’s so-called 2006...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • David Cunliffe Resigns As Labour Leader – Forces Robertson Out of the Bel...
    David Cunliffe has made a smart move, resigning as the leader of the Labour Party so as to force a leadership primary campaign. The move draws rival Grant Robertson out of the beltway to parts of the country where he...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • Deep thought vs Deep prejudice
    . . This letter to the editor appeared in The Listener, on 27 September, and caught my attention; . . Mr Dawson wrote in response to one of those typically unthinking comments which  condemned the poor for their “unbridled, reckless...
    The Daily Blog | 27-09
  • The NZ National voters elected
    The NZ National voters elected...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Kate Davis – The post election postmortem is giving me post p...
    I feel the need to contribute to the discourse. This is a new experience for me. Not having an opinion, but expressing it on a popular forum in a public sphere. That’s why I have waited till now and put...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • A dictionary of education terms and definitions, brought to you by the let...
    Free to all TDB readers, please enjoy your very own cut-out-and-keep handy primer of terms that I predict you will need to know over the next three years… Achievement Gap (noun) Synonym for wealth gap. ACT (abstract noun) Intangible. Reported to exist in...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • A Mines Rescue brigadesman’s perspective on the Pike River Mine
    My husband and I lived in Greymouth in 2010, we were a coal mining family.  The day Pike River Mine blew up and the days following changed us profoundly, as it did for so many.  This is a Mines Rescue...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • The Left Triumphant! A Counterfactual History of the Last Twelve Months.
    DID IT REALLY HAVE TO END LIKE THIS? Reading through the commentary threads of the left-wing blogs it is impossible to not feel the anger; the sense of betrayal; the impression of having had something vital ripped from their grasp;...
    The Daily Blog | 26-09
  • GUEST BLOG – Myles Thomas: The media won it!
    Make no mistake, John Key is a clever communicator – reasonable, authoritative and relaxed – but without the media he wouldn’t be PM. Depending on your viewpoint, New Zealand’s news media are either a bunch of Grey Lynn lefties or...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • Not Learning Lessons Past: the West’s Response to IS
    In an earlier posting Ukraine, United Kingdom, Ireland, Scotland, I noted that the first lesson of conflict learned by Robert McNamara was “understand your adversary”. If we have honourable objectives, our first and most important weapon is empathy. In the Vietnam War,...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • GUEST BLOG: Dr Jarrod Gilbert – Proof of David Farrar’s deception: my ...
    In the lead up to the election the Minister of Corrections Anne Tolley launched a gang policy. In order to justify the government’s approach she used gang figures that overstated the gang problem. Not by a little bit, but a...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • SPECIAL FEATURE: Stuart Nash – Red To The Rescue?
    SPECIAL FEATURE by Selwyn Manning. IF THE ELECTION RESULT which was dished out to Labour was not enough to incite an immediate leadership primary, then the caucus’ refusal to recognise David Cunliffe as the leader should cement it. Now is...
    The Daily Blog | 25-09
  • Has the one party state crackdown begun already? Left wing NZ activist grou...
    Well known left wing activist social media group, ‘John Key Has Left Down NZ’ has been shut down on Facebook. At 11.40pm last night, Facebook, without any warning shut the group down siting a breach of terms of service as...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • Why Cunliffe should probably just let Nash & Robertson win
    We have to face some very unpalatable home truths. If you are a left wing political person, best you put your vote now to the Green Party, although you’ll have to do that all the while the Greens frantically tell you...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • The graceless win of Kelvin Davis
    The graceless win of Cameron Slater’s mate in the North, Kelvin Davis is difficult to swallow. Here Cameron Slater’s mate in the North is shitting on Hone Harawira by calling Hone all steam, no hangi as Kelvin rubs his ganged up win into...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • So Labour shifted too far to the left?
    So Labour shifted too far to the left?   Here’s the ill-judged view of Josie Pagani in the Pundit “Labour must change”: “At the last election I made myself a heretic when I wrote a column mentioning how unpopular the...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • Uncomplicated Loyalties: Why Cunliffe and the Labour Left Cannot Win
    THE STORY of David Cunliffe’s leadership of the Labour Party has been one of missed opportunities and unforced errors. That he was the only choice available to those who wanted to rid the Labour Party of its neoliberal cuckoos is...
    The Daily Blog | 24-09
  • So we can expect this now?
    So we can expect this now?...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Can Labour be saved? Why Whaleoil & National won and why we need a new ...
    As the shock of my optimism that NZers would recoil from the real John Key as exposed by Dirty Politics and mass surveillance duplicities wears off, I am surprised to find that the right in NZ are not content with...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Three more years (up shit creek and paddling hard)
    “If the future is not green, there is no future. If the future is not you, there is no future”. Emma Thompson’s stirring words to the climate marchers in London last Sunday are worth considering in the aftermath of the...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • One Party State
    In years to come this election will be seen as a historic turning point towards one party rule. I don`t mean this literally, absolute single party dictatorship is not in prospect. In the New Zealand context though, one party has...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • No More. The Left Falls.
    . We cannot be beaten down Because we are down already. We can only rise up and if you should beat us down, We will rise again. And again. And again… And when you tire of beating us down, We...
    The Daily Blog | 23-09
  • Hang tight everyone – Marama Davidson campaign reflection
    To the many people who had expressed their overwhelming support for me to enter Parliament this election – thank you. That the Greens held steady in a big loss for progressive politics is an achievement. We are hopeful that after...
    The Daily Blog | 22-09
  • How You Can Help the Homeless
    At any one time, there are an estimated 357 homeless people in Central Auckland alone, many enduring hardships beyond the rain, wind and cold of sleeping rough. October 10 is World Homeless Day when the public are invited to learn...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Over 20% of Gold Production Now Pledged to Kiwifruit Claim
    Kiwifruit growers representing over 20% of New Zealand gold kiwifruit production have already pledged to join The Kiwifruit Claim, the chairman of the claim’s grower committee, John Cameron, said today....
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • ‘Creepy’ Decision on Up-Skirt Filming Slammed
    Family First NZ says that a discharge without conviction given to a man who filmed up a woman's dress in a Wellington department store is a ‘creepy’ decision that should concern all people who value their privacy. “This decision by...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Speaker leads delegation to CPA Conference
    Strengthening New Zealand’s ties with parliaments from across the world will be the focus of the upcoming delegation to the 60th Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) Conference in Yaoundé, Cameroon from 4-10 October and the 131st Inter-Parliamentary...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Response to Russell Brown and Tertiary Education Union
    The allegation that I have worked with others to discredit public health efforts is wrong. My public comments in relation to public health researchers have been where academics have mislead the public about official support or endorsement, and where...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • 17 jobs lost as Bridon/Cookes reaches the end of its rope
    Seventeen workers at the iconic Bridon/Cookes wire rope company in Auckland are to be made redundant as the company ceases production in New Zealand. The company has blamed the high New Zealand dollar for making it uncompetitive to keep the...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Slip in University Rankings – Funding Not the Problem
    Responding to the slippage of New Zealand universities' rankings , Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says:...
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Time to rethink police chases, says safety campaigner
    Police chases are dangerous and generally unnecessary, says the American Federal Bureau of Investigation....
    Scoop politics | 02-10
  • Robertson now expected to be Labour leader by Xmas
    Grant Robertson is now overwhelmingly picked to become the next leader of the Labour Party by the end of the year, according to the combined wisdom of the 8000+ registered traders on New Zealand’s predictions market, iPredict. Another potential Labour...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Documenting historic Māori land law cases for the first time
    A new book from Victoria University of Wellington’s Faculty of Law will continue to put the spotlight on Māori Land Law judgments which have never before been published....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • ‘Oily’ people greet Petroleum Summit diners
    Greenpeace activists smeared in fake oil have greeted guests arriving at the part-Statoil sponsored Petroleum Summit dinner this evening....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Key Decisions Made About Labour’s Leadership Election
    Labour’s New Zealand Council has made the key decisions about the timetable and process around the election of Labour’s Party Leader. The result will be announced on Tuesday 18th November, following a comprehensive and extensive process unique...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Suspected $6 Million Dollar Wananga Fraud Alarming
    The Taxpayers’ Union is calling on on the Te Whare Wananga o Awanuiarangi to front up over claims the Wananga has pocketed government overpayments amounting to $6 million of taxpayers' money. Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Submissions sought on herbicide for weed control in maize
    The Environmental Protection Authority is calling for submissions on a herbicide to improve broadleaf weed control in maize. The substance CADET contains 100g fluthiacet-methyl in the form of an emulsifiable concentrate and would contain a new active ingredient...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Jesse Mulligan Lives Below Poverty Line
    Jesse Mulligan Lives Below Poverty Line TV personality Jesse Mulligan will live on the equivalent of the extreme poverty line this October in order to raise awareness of sex trafficking. Mulligan will survive on $2.25 for his food from October...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Narratives from the 2014 Election: What do we learn?
    Narratives from the 2014 Election: What do we learn? - Sue Bradford, Russell Brown & Kirk Serpes discuss....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Voices from Oceania to speak out on climate change
    Voices from Oceania to speak out on climate change at launch of Pacific environment report...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Changes to Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre messages
    The Ministry of Civil Defence & Emergency Management advises that while changes to Pacific Tsunami Warning Centre messages come into effect from today (Wednesday 1 October), the Ministry has been, and remains, the authoritative voice for tsunami...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Police remove banner at Statoil Offices in Wellington
    Oil Free Wellington hung a banner at 9:30 this morning at the Statoil office headquarters in Wellington as the Petroleum Summit opened in Auckland. The banner, which read 'Statoil out of Northland: Stop Deep Sea Oil', has now been removed...
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Mixed massages raise concerns
    Mixed massages raise concerns for Te Taumata Kaumatua Ngapuhi nui tonu, and Te Wakaminenga O nga Hapu Ngapuhi....
    Scoop politics | 01-10
  • Union Slams Port Boss’s Pay Rise
    The Rail and Maritime Transport Union (RMTU) says Lyttelton Port CEO Peter Davie’s 18% wage rise, taking his pay packet to $1.24m, is unjustified and inflammatory. ‘Lyttelton port has an appalling health and safety record, with three deaths on...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Prisons expert Ron Nikkel to speak in Auckland October 15
    Prison Fellowship NZ and JustSpeak have the privilege of hosting the former president of Prison Fellowship International, Ron Nikkel....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Hundreds of educators protest IES in Rotorua
    Four hundred educators from around the country took their opposition to the Government's controversial Investing in Educational Success policy to the public today....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Crime drops by 3.2 % in the 2013 / 2014 financial year
    Criminal offences dropped by 3.2 % in the last financial year according to figures released today through Statistics New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Narratives from the 2014 Election: what do we learn?
    I would like to invite you to a Fabians Reflection on "Dirty Politics, Dotcom and Labour’s worst result" with Colin James, Keith Ng, Stephanie Rodgers and Richard Harman. They will provide a debrief of analysis and lessons from the 2014...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Oil Free Wellington drops banner from Statoil headquarters
    Today members of Oil Free Wellington have targeted the offices of Statoil, by attaching a banner reading 'Statoil out of Northland: Stop Deep Sea Oil' to the entrance of Vodafone on the Quay Midland Park, where Statoil's New Zealand office...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Media Statement from Karen Price
    “After a period of intense media attention and scrutiny of our family, I set up and used an anonymous Twitter account over the weekend and made a number of comments that I deeply regret....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Greenpeace disrupts Simon Bridges’ speech to oil industry
    Greenpeace activists have disrupted the opening speech by Energy and Resources Minister Simon Bridges at the Petroleum Summit in Auckland this morning....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • New Zealand Red Cross Responds to Drought in Tonga
    New Zealand Red Cross has sent an aid worker and two desalination units, to turn seawater into safe drinking water in the drought-hit Ha’apai islands of Tonga....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Can you ever tell if an email is real or forged?
    Computer industry veteran Brian Eardley-Wilmot warns that we should never take claims about stolen emails at face value....
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • NZ MPs to attend the ASPG Annual Conference in Sydney
    New Zealand MPs to attend the Australasian Study of Parliament Group Annual Conference in Sydney...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Independent Maori seats still needed in Parliament
    “He’s got to be joking!” is the reaction of the president of the Maori Party, Rangimarie Naida Glavish to a call by a former Labour Minister of Maori Affairs, Dover Samuels, for debate by Maori on whether the Maori electorates...
    Scoop politics | 30-09
  • Support for Democratic Rights in Hong Kong
    Rallies supporting the rights for universal suffrage will take place all over New Zealand today and tomorrow...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Trout Mass-Poisoned in New Zealand
    Trout Mass-Poisoned in New Zealand The Graf Boys New Zealand has some of the best trout fishing in the world! Every year thousands of international visitors wade pristine rivers in search of the freshwater game fish....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • New Zealand’s 2014 Hottest Vegetarians Crowned
    With winter gone things are heating up, and things just got even hotter with the crowning of New Zealand’s hottest vegetarians, says animal advocacy group SAFE. Marking World Vegetarian Day, 1st October, director James Napier Robertson and actor...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • A day to remember our duty to look after our senior citizens
    Human Rights Commissioner Dr Jackie Blue says International Day of the Older Person (1 October) is a United Nations day to celebrate our senior citizens, but also acknowledge the need to protect our kaumatua, or older people from abuse and...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Clear data needed on impact of benefit sanctions on children
    A lack of data on benefit sanctions means there is no way of knowing whether welfare reform is helping or harming children, says Child Poverty Action Group....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • The socialist alternative to austerity and war
    Public meeting: After the New Zealand election—the socialist alternative to austerity and war By Tom Peters 29 September 2014...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • New recruits to boost border protection
    Twenty six new recruits began an intensive nine-week training course in Auckland today that will see them graduate as Customs officers in time for the busy summer season....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Dwindling Mallard population shows up ‘pest’ myth
    The pro hunting organisation Fish & Game is researching the causes of the decline of the mallard duck population, upset at the prospect of fewer ducks to kill....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Support for Democratic Rights in Hong Kong
    New Zealanders in Auckland will gather on Wednesday to support the rights for universal suffrage in Hong Kong....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Campbell Live Exclusive Interview with David Cunliffe
    David Cunliffe resigned as leader of the Labour party on Saturday; but he still wants the top job....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Action needed on cycling safety
    “Clearly we aren't doing enough to protect the 1.5 million New Zealanders who ride bikes,” said Mr Morgan....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • World Rivers Day Passes Without A Whimper
    Sunday 28 September was World Rivers Day to celebrate clean, flowing rivers and caring about them. But a recreation-conservation advocacy the Council of Outdoor Recreation Associations of NZ (CORANZ) says the day seems to have slipped by without...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • The Kiwifruit Claim: Q&A
    1. Who is running The Kiwifruit Claim? The Kiwifruit Claim was founded by kiwifruit growers representing well in excess of 10% of the industry. 2. Why are you running this claim? The introduction of Psa into New Zealand had devastating...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Fed Farmers Need to Be Weaned
    The Taxpayers’ Union is calling on Federated Farmers to make a firm commitment to reject any future Government funding, after it was revealed that the lobby group had received over $200,000 of payments in recent years....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Children paying the price for charter school stitch up
    New Zealand children will be paying a high price for a one-seat deal between ACT and National, with an expansion of the beleaguered charter school system says education union NZEI Te Riu Roa....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Hikoi From North Reaches Oil Conference Tomorrow
    Today: The Hikoi opposing Statoil plans for seismic testing and deep sea oil drilling has marched through Dargaville and later be welcomed to Piringatahi Marae, West Harbour,Tamaki Makaurau/Auckland....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Communities Still Count
    The efforts of many organisations to influence the electorate and the political parties they voted for in the lead up to the 2014 Election is over. The voting public has spoken and provided a strong endorsement to the centre-right National...
    Scoop politics | 29-09
  • Eleven social enterprises get ready to take off
    Eleven teams from across the country will take part in the Launchpad, Ākina’s programme to get social enterprise ideas off the ground....
    Scoop politics | 29-09
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lprent: At the request of Tim Barnett, Labour's returning officer, the Karen Price/Clayton Cosgrove post has been withdrawn during the primary.