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Open mike 20/09/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 20th, 2012 - 200 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

200 comments on “Open mike 20/09/2012”

  1. lprent 1

    I had to leave a rather long note about when and how we moderate on legal issues and public interest because Bob (at least) clearly doesn’t understand it.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19092012/#comment-523421

    You’d think that after all of these years since Lange vs Atkinson that people will have caught up with the arguments that the court of appeal and privy council ruled on.

  2. Try clapping your hands 110 times within 13 secs. That’s how fast the floors were pulverized. It went so fast, they couldn’t even hit eachother. The floors were pulverized to dust in mid-air.

    The Toronto hearings condensed for those of you interested to hear what scientists, Architects and engineers have to say about the events of 9/11

    • Fuck man, give it up. No one believes your stupid conspiracy theories.

      • thatguynz 2.1.1

        No.  All your comment means is that YOU don’t.

      • freedom 2.1.2

        So, Mary Mary quite contrary can you explain why 9/11 truth groups are showing ever increasing numbers of members ?

        • QoT 2.1.2.1

          Without commenting on the merits of this particular instance, it seems fairly logical that the further away we get from an event, the more plausible different theories about it are. Fewer people have direct knowledge, primary sources start to fade … see also: Nazca Plateau, Jack the Ripper, the moon landings.

      • vto 2.1.3

        That’s a bit harsh contrarian.

        Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK?

        • TheContrarian 2.1.3.1

          “can you explain why 9/11 truth groups are showing ever increasing numbers of members?” 

          Argumentum ad populum. It is irrelevant how many people believe it.

          Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK?”

          Of course

        • Tiger Mountain 2.1.3.2

          I am healthily skeptical about 9/11 particularly building 7 and the Pentagon that do not appear to have been hit by planes and the suspicious lack of publicly available photos of wreckage from flight 93.

          This stuff should be pursued to the end, just as one Augusto Pinochet was, because it is about how “civilized” societies function. The WWII Polish Katyn forest executions by Soviet forces were known about by the allies from the start but they only ’fessed up this year! Do those in charge do horrible things to the people? I can sense a few nods from readers here… yes they bloody do, so why not sections of the US spook/corporate brigade.

          At one stage Lprent suggested if interest in this topic was going to continue then maybe a dedicated thread could be set up. This could be worth looking at, so the disinterested or general reader could avoid. But that is easy for me to say as I do not run the blog!

          • freedom 2.1.3.2.1

            Perhaps instead a simple links hub could be facilitated.

            Somewhere that links only are posted into either a Truther/Denier ‘twin tables’ set up that people can freely investigate without the judgement and the vitriol that usually accompanies them.
            Just a thought.

          • insider 2.1.3.2.2

            try entering “flight 93 wreckage” in google. It’s not hard. You’ll be amazed – pictures of plane bits in a deep hole in a field!

      • Te Reo Putake 2.1.4

        Good on ya, TC. However, the best response is probably the rolling eyes or taking this ever useful advice: DNFTT. Still, you managed to get one fool to throw in a bizarro world link to the JFK shooting, so well done for that!
         
        ps. Freedom, I’m not saying the GFC and 9/11 fantasies are definitely linked, but the answer to your question might be found here.

        • travellerev 2.1.4.1

          TC, Fuck man should be Fuck woman.

        • freedom 2.1.4.2

          TRP, i am not going to get into a 911 debate here as face to face communication is the only successful method of helping someone break through the cognitive dissonance that is strangling the world. If you choose to continue ignoring the laws of physics and the mind-buggeringly huge amount of data that obliterates every aspect of the official story there is little that a hundred hours of online bickering will achieve.

          People either wake up or they don’t. I stopped wasting my time fighting it online last year. instead i take every opportunity that arises in the real world to engage, assist and educate anyone who shows the telltale signs of 911 ignorance. I can honestly say i have personally witnessed the ‘awakening’ of over a hundred people in that time and it is getting easier every single time.

          So either people have a growing awareness of the issue or i am just an incredibly persuasive individual who gets rational adults to believe in what you call fantasies.

          have a pleasant day

          • Te Reo Putake 2.1.4.2.1

            Cheers to you, too, freedom. I’m pretty much at the same level of frustration as yourself and most of the time I ignore the madness of the 9/11 truth deniers. But, this is a left wing site and occasionally I rise to the bait that the righties throw. I know I should really take my own advice and stop feeding the trolls, but occasionally its worthwhile anyway, just for conversations such as this.
             
            Ultimately, the best defence against the mis-named truthers is the truth. And the complete lack of any factual comfirmation of an alternative conspiracy to the successful AQ led attack on the WTC speaks volumes.
             
            11 years, 8 days. Still no evidence. Occam’s razor remains as sharp as ever.

            • TheContrarian 2.1.4.2.1.1

              I like to remind truthers that the Bush government was so freaking inept at everything else it tried but somehow has pulled of the most masterful of conspiracies without there ever being a whistle blower? 
               

              • framu

                which is a good point.

                Ok – normally i dont join in this argument, because it has no end – ever.

                however – im still of the opinion that…
                “there are many conspiracies about 9/11 – the US govt’s is one of them”. Theres just too much stuff that doesnt add up in ANY given explanation.

                I know that puts me in a bit of a stasis/fence sitting position – but i can live with that

              • weka

                I don’t have an opinion either way, but I do like to watch the argument sometimes and how illogic pops up on both sides. 

                For instance, the idea that the Bush administration is so inept they couldn’t have pulled this off, plus the argument that no-one has ever spoken out about the conspiracy, remind me of the commentary in the days following 11/9 where people couldn’t believe that Arabs were capable of planning and carrying out such an attack.

                 

                • BernyD

                  Not Arabs, torture trained maniacs, they exist everywhere in case anyone was wondering

                  • Jokerman

                    pointers for a better round of golf (or shall i find another course)?

                    • BernyD

                      My heart is beating slow @ the mo, L8r maybe.
                      I need a golf club that can take it , not an easy ask.

                  • weka

                    Sure Berny, but in the days after 11/9 that’s not what people were talking about. They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.

                    • BernyD

                      true, fear mongering, Nut Jobs do it every day

                    • “lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians”

                      Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull of?

                    • “lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians”

                      Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull off?

                    • weka
                      Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull of?

                       
                      I wouldn’t have thought so. Probably looks easy in  hindsight.
                    • BernyD

                      So you’re a life supporter weka, we are not alone in this world.

                    • Easy in that ‘lowly Arabs’ are just as adept as anyone else

                    • BernyD

                      Just another prohibitive culture trying to survive the modern day human condition.
                      = Every country on the planet.

                    • QoT

                      They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.

                      Yes. That’s how propaganda works.

                    • weka

                      They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
                      “Yes. That’s how propaganda works.”

                      True, but I think it was also the US people just not being that aware of the rest of the world and having a retarded view of Middle Eastern countries.

                      Anyway, my original point, somewhere, such as it was, was that saying that there is no conspiracy because Bush is an idiot is akin to saying Al Qaeda weren’t smart enough to pull off the attacks.  Neither argument makes logical sense. (and yes, I know, logic in this debate, a vain hope).

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      but the logic falls down because it’s a flse equivalence.

                      The controlled demolition theory calls for an extremely complicated plan that hasn’t been put forward. ie, we know that it must have been extremely complicated, and we have had no suggestion of how they might have carried it out. We also know that the alleged planners have a track record of fucking much simpler things up.

                      The terrorist attack theory is highly detailed; there are loads of very good analytical and investigative books, including interviews with the planners, timelines, historical threads, the whole gambit. It’s also a much simpler explanation of events, needing much less planning, and the alleged planners had the experience to do it.

                      So not really buying the equivalence angle.

                  • Jokerman

                    you have captivating technique your self

                    • BernyD

                      How many options do I have?
                      I’ve lived in pain my whole life, captivating?Engineered?UNPaidFor?
                      I should change my handle to BloodyOrphan, maybe that’d help

          • Murray Olsen 2.1.4.2.2

            Maybe they just pretend to agree so they can escape your explanations, freedom.
            I’ve got some doubts about what happened with building 7, but haven’t seen anything yet which comes close to making me think about why the other two towers collapsed. As for the wreckage in the forest – when planes hit vertically or near vertically, they tend to excavate deep holes for themselves. Bf 109s going into English soil sometimes managed to get surprisingly deep.
            As for the Pentagon – the plane flew over the top of a friend’s car just before it hit. His wife was driving and he is an American scientist, so we’re probably trying to suppress something. Yawn.

      • mike e 2.1.5

        Trav yeah trav60,000 tons of material coming down 14ft gaining momentum then gathering in another 70 floors at 2,000 tons each I think your brains have been pulverized by blinkered thinking.
        As for your thermite theory its just a theory thermite could easily be made from the aluminium joinery and the aluminium lining of the gibboard (Dry wall )rubbing together under huge forces 500,000 tons with the momentum building gathering up as the building crashes down the amount of energy and destruction would be in the 100,s of millions of tons equivalent in energy dissipated which could quite easily produce pockets of nano thermite.

        • travellerev 2.1.5.1

          For those of you wanting to learn more about what Mike E is talking about here is an excellent analysis of the collapse of the South tower and why there is no pile driver (Which would be against the laws of physics as the top of the building would find the path of least resistance) from Greame McQueen. called waiting for the Wham!
          And Mike E you might take your blinkers off for about an hour and watch the presentation too and the same goes for McFlock

        • freedom 2.1.5.2

          i have to respond to that mike, and i will do so with a quick question

          Care to explain how a steel I-beam that was identified as coming from above the point of impact was found embedded in a building 400+ m away from where it was originally riveted and welded into place?

          The nonsensical statements that have no basis in science (or even bother with logic) such as that delivered from mike e above, are why i prefer to keep my 911 work on a face to face platform these days. People are far less willing to throw out bs when they have to sit there defending and or explaining their assertions that always end up contradicting or defeating their own statements.

      • mike e 2.1.6

        Its funny these conspiracy theorists seem to believe aliens have already landed and just about everything is a conspiracy just about all the theorists I know are unemployed or in low wage jobs I suppose its a form of escapism.
        But these conspiracy theorists Don’t believe in Vaccinating their children either!
        Another one was that the swine flu vaccination was going to wipe out your immune system.
        My family has all got the swine flu jab and you couldn’t meet a healthier bunch of people.
        I see their kids ( the ones who haven’t immunised their children )and most of them are anaemic
        and physically small Always off school sick with something wrong!

        • travellerev 2.1.6.1

          Funny, most people I know who are donating their intelligence and time in search for 911 truth are university professors,scientists, successful architects, Engineers, fire fighters, lawyers, military personnel and Pilots.

        • muzza 2.1.6.2

          Well Mike, I know some pretty high level business people, intelligent, educated and the like, and guess what, they ask questions too, because they are not stupid, and they don;t believe what is rolled out by TPTB , on all manor of subjects. Only a complete fool believes that corporations, war machines, intelligence industries, big oil, pharma, war on drugs, war on terror etc are there for your well being. Only a FOOL would not want to at least try to see if there is more going on, and a coward would deny it!

          Questioning the party line, and looking for understadings is a responsibility we all should take on, sure that does not mean we will all agree etc, which is fine, but hey the conversations become much more interesting than rugby, beer and other house extensions, or isn’t so and so a bitch, and other irrelevant topics. making up so called conversation in NZ.

          Which person makes the world a potentially worse place for everyone to live, now and in future, including for your kids, nieces, nephews or gandkids etc?

          1: The person who seeks understandings and answers, and questions events which shape this world?

          or

          2: The person who accepts what they are told and never questions the version of what they are told is happening around them?

          Simple question innit!

    • McFlock 2.2

      Comparing a building collapse to clapping your hands is idiotic.
       

      • freedom 2.2.1

        no mcFlock it is simply an instructive and basic visualization tool that forces your consciousness to realize that one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times. It is the niggling reality of the situation that you are fighting and which causes you to react so predictably.

        • Andrew Scobie 2.2.1.1

          “one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times”

          really? link please. i believe it is you that doesn’t understand physics then.

          • McFlock 2.2.1.1.1

            Fuckit, envelope physics time:

            At 3 metres / floor, 110 floors = 330 metres in 13 seconds.
            Average speed = 25 Metres per second. (about 90KpH).

            G = 9.8M/s/s
            After 13 seconds free-fall acceleration that = 147.4M/s (530KpH). It would have travelled 891.8 Metres. At 3M/floor that’s 297 times.
            Average speed 68.6M/s or 247KpH.

            Obviously this doesn’t include wind or concrete resistance, but in order to replicate the theoretical average frequency of floor destruction at freefall speeds, you would need to clap nearly 300 times in 13 seconds.
                    
            Obviously the law of gravity breaks the laws of physics. 

             

            • travellerev 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Hahahah,
              Let’s calculate something and exclude one of the most prominent qualities: that of concrete resistance. 
              The law of gravity obeys the three laws of Physics. If the law of gravity had been obeyed as well as the laws of physics the top which you claim acted as a sledge hammer would have found the path of least resistance.

              You should really watch Greame McQueen’s presentation linked to above.

              • The laws of physics were obeyed.

                • There there C, calm down. Of course the laws of physics were obeyed. Nothing can break the laws of Physics. It is just that the official story can’t have happened unless 19 young Muslims could break them. In order to pulverise the buildings and allow them to come down into their own footprint someone had to have access to all three buildings and place explosives in them, s’all.
                  Only with a huge amount of extra energy could those buildings come down. Office fires and kerosene could not have done that.

                  • Jet fuel =/= kerosene.

                    You realise that the plane itself is made of many elements with different melting points (like aluminium and magnesium) which would melt and burn before steel, adding to the ferocity of the fire, and that steel is significantly weakened in high temperatures

                    Secondly you have never explained when and how the explosives got into a building with 24 hour surveillance and bomb sniffing dogs and without alerting security or anyone else that worked there.

                    You also failed to address the fact that the it wasn’t the top few floors vs the rest of the building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.

              • Andrew Scobie

                I watched it this morning and personally believe it’s complete bollocks.
                Trav, read this next bit very slowly …. the top of the building DID follow the path of least resistance. All laws, including Newton’s, which you claim weren’t, were followed to the letter.

                • Either you are right in which case there was no resistance all the way to the ground where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building indicating the destruction of the building by something other than the Sledgehammer Mike e is talking about or you’re wrong and the top bit rammed the bottom bit to smithereens breaking the laws of physics.
                  You can’t have it both ways. Your turn.
                   

                  • BernyD

                    Well if what they say is true, then I’d be guessing building practices in the name of weight reduction for the primary cause then.

                  • Andrew Scobie

                    no-one has ever said there was “no resistance”, or course there was. But just not as much as you think there was. Your use of the words: “just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building” are clearly incorrect. The top clearly fell through at least 1 floor with little to no resistance.

                    The floor trusses in those 2 buildings were clearly the weak point. With the top 12 floors tipping and leaning to one side, all of the resulting force was being transferred through a smaller footprint, clearly more than was able to be withheld, leading to the structural failure. The floors were made of only 4 inch thick “lightweight” concrete.

                    To quote wikipedia: “While the buildings were designed to support enormous static loads, they provided little resistance to the moving mass of the sections above the floors where the collapses initiated. Structural systems respond very differently to static and dynamic loads, and since the motion of the falling portion began as a free fall through the height of at least one story (roughly three meters or 10 feet), the structure beneath them was unable to stop the collapses once they began. Indeed, a fall of only half a meter (about 20 inches) would have been enough to release the necessary energy to begin an unstoppable collapse

                    and … “Once the collapse initiated, the mass of failing floors overwhelmed the floors below, causing a progressive series of floor failures which accelerated as the sequence progressed. Soon large portions of the perimeter columns and possibly the cores were left without any lateral support, causing them to fall laterally towards the outside pushed by the increasing pile of rubble. The result was the walls peeling off and separating away from the buildings by a large distance (about 500 feet in some cases), hitting other neighboring buildings. Some connections broke as the bolts snapped, leaving many panels randomly scattered. Significant parts of the naked cores (about 60 stories for the North Tower and 40 for the South Tower) remained standing for some seconds before they also collapsed themselves

                    Anyway, you and i have had countless arguments about this topic and neither one of us is going to budge. I don’t even know why i bothered commenting on the topic again. The weight of evidence is on my side, not yours. so, as you most eloquently put it …. your turn.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      I’d love to see a truther account one tenth as detailed as the various and numerous accounts that are to be found of the mainstream theory.

                      For example, I’d like to know how much ‘nano thermite’ would have been needed and where it was placed. Then we’d need a discussion that takes account of the nature of thermite, that it burns rather than explodes, so it usually requires aditional explosives to shift the cut steel.

                      Factor that into the images we have of the collapse and explain how it all happened, and whether it makes sens to do it that way.

                      The plan would have had to take account of the fact that several floors were severely damaged by the plane crashes and fires. How was this built into the pla? How did the wiring plans for the thermite and explosives build redundancy in to deal with this?

                      Is the controlled demolition theory explaining what we see, or is the controlled demolition account trying to force itself on to what is being observed?

                      But we never get offered any detail. After a decade, there is still no explanation of their account.

                    • I want to know “How did the thermite get in there without anyone noticing”

                    • Andrew Scobie

                      agree! i’m especially interested in how all the tons and tons of explosives and thermite were wired into the building with kilometers of demolition cord, under the noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.

                      All the while being placed in exactly the correct place for a plain to hit the buildings and not damage said explosives rig. Then requiring someone to press the button to initiate the collapse while knowing 300 odd innocent firefighters were still inside the building with no change of escape.

                      to quote the Tui adds, yea right.

                    • “e noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.”

                      and 24 hour surveillance, security guards…plus fucking bomb sniffing dogs  to boot.  

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      But don’t push the button right away, let it burn for while, having full confidence that when you push the button it will go. :roll:

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna

                      The thermite? It was all added by Buzz Aldrin at the time of construction – just don’t say it to his face…

                  • You are doing it again:

                    “where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building ”

                    No,  it wasn’t the top few floors vs  a huge solid and undamaged building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.

                    Why do you never address this?

                  • mike e

                    Benny D is right but trav you are just repeating con job.
                    You don’t understand laws of physics tell me why it takes 1.2km to stop a1200tonne train going along tracks !
                    then tell me how you would stop 60,000 tonnes which is gaining momentum also fighting the effects of gravity stops .
                    The train isn’t gaining momentum and has only a mild gravitational drag!
                    Those buildings were built quickly cheaply using formally illegal methods until they conned NY City to go back to old methods using clip in prefabricated floor trusses !
                    Now you will find that the flooring systems in use today has to be bolted in with very expensive non sheer temp proof bolts!
                    They’ve learned from the mistakes!

              • McFlock

                I was pointing out that the speed of the towers was within the bounds highest possible speed with no resistance, i.e. freefall speed, and that therefore your “hands clapping” argument is batshit-stupid idiocy.
                     
                We might have some agreement, though – the towers fell at slower than freefall speed due to concrete being in the way. 

              • Murray Olsen

                What exactly are the three laws of physics?

      • Te Reo Putake 2.2.2

        Just for the record, this bloke can clap 12-13 times a second. So, clearly, it is possible to clap 110 times in 13 seconds, which probably negates whatever vague point Trav was trying to make. But no matter, it just makes the comparison entirely consistent with the rest of the truther claims, which are equally bogus.

      • I threw a burning piece of metal in the shape of a plane at a piece of concrete once and NOTHING HAPPENED!

        9/11 WAS A LIE!

         

    • BernyD 2.3

      The loss must be phenomonal, conspiracy theories rob u of the ground you stand on, they do not answer loss.

      • mike e 2.3.1

        What isn’t a conspiracy theory is that it has been found that GW Bush has been found to have lied to the American public in saying he wasn’t warned of an impending attack he was warned but didn’t take it seriously as he thought that no one would dare attack the US!

      • BernyD 2.3.2

        Those cats were talking about it in 99, problem was no one could fathom it.
        and I’m just a cat off the street.
        They created a lot of fear with that “engineered” approach.
        You can see it in Afghanistan and other places right now

      • travellerev 2.3.3

        Bernie,

        The first speaker is a lady by the name of Laurie van Auken. She was one of the people who fought for an investigation into what happened. She lost her husband on 9/11. As long as people like her want to fight for a new and independent investigation I’m with her

        • BernyD 2.3.3.1

          Fair enuf, in a civilised world that’s a good thing, power too them, but I think in this case the inuendo I speek of is all there is behind it, truely sorry for their loss, heartbreaking.
          It was street level info from NZ.

    • millsy 2.4

      Regardless of whether you thought the WTC was deliberately demolished or not, you have to admit, that it is rather strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.

      Given that black boxes have been recovered in dense jungles, shark infested oceans and icy rivers, it would be pretty straightforward for them to be recovered in the rubble of a destroyed building or in the Pennsylvania countryside.

      • kiwi_prometheus 2.4.1

        “strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.”

        They weren’t all destroyed.

        http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_Black_Boxes ->

        “The Flight 93 flight data recorders were recovered. The Flight 77 black boxes were also removed from the Pentagon, but one of them (the cockpit voice recorder) was too badly damaged to be used. The only boxes not to be recovered were from the World Trade Centre impacts ”

        The World Trade Centre ones were destroyed – is that surprising given the extreme forces involved there?

        Black boxes aren’t indestructible. They aren’t always recovered.

        And these crashes were not normal – crazies at the steering wheel with the accelerator to the floor.

        It’s like the old moon landing conspiracy nonsense:

        “There are no stars in the background!” – because the sun light fades them out, the sky is black because there is no atmosphere on the moon otherwise it is just like we don’t see stars in the blue daytime sky.

        And seriously, would someone go to all that trouble to fake a mooning landing and forget to paint the stars on the background? :roll:

        The moon is a completely alien environment, what is experienced on Earth and taken for granted is turned upside down.

        Stupid conspiracy nonsense.

      • Tiger Mountain 2.4.2

        That type of issue is why I remain a 9/11 skeptic Millsy, not a ‘Truther’, follow the evidence.
        No plane appears to have hit the Pentagon or building seven so what did happen?

        A govt., or sections of it, would not harm it’s own people? C’mon Pol Pot, Indonesia, Chile, Syria.

        • Te Reo Putake 2.4.2.1

          Building 7 was hit by a large chunk of one of the falling towers, TM. And while you’ll get no argument from me on America’s historical propensity to use its power extra-judicially, to do so against its own citizens on a mass scale has no modern precedent.
           
          The wikipedia site has pretty common sense descriptions of the main theories, including the video of the Pentagon crash. The guts of it is, for me, that there is no credible alternative to the established facts. And the complete absence of human corroboration of the inside job is the clincher. No whistleblower, no stray email, no oh so human cock up.
           
          It is what it is. A relatively simple plot, using a classic guerilla technique, modernised; multiple hits to maximise the chance of success. They succeeded because a highjacking with the intention of destroying the aircraft and all aboard was inconceivable. Security, till then, had been premised on the idea that political hijackers wanted publicity and a safe haven; that they intended to survive. 
           
          The USA was mugged, pure and simple.

          edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

          • insider 2.4.2.1.1

            There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.

            • muzza 2.4.2.1.1.1

              There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.,

              That comment I just had to laugh at, especially when you used the words ignorant, google search, bits of engine, wheels, parts , logos etc.

              Its like Voice saying that Wiki is a reliable source., and no prescedent etc…

              Ignorant indeed!

              • Te Reo Putake

                Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.
                 
                ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.
                 
                It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!

                • muzza

                  Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.

                  Its all BS on every angle, it so obvious, no need to spend time dwelling on it. No need to waste time on what stinks from top to bottom!

                  ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.

                  Now you’re catching on, slow, but better you got there….I don’t even mind that its you who finally caught on to my position on such matters around deliberate confusion on every angle. Next you just have to develop the inate ability to be able to tell the shite in the lies….You dont have it though, your words tell me that for sure. Worse you have no interest in even trying, which is why you will remain confused on so many issues!

                  It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!

                  Idiocy beyond belief!

                  • insider

                    Your postion of deliberate confusion on almost every angle is entirely obvious to most observers. Although I’m prepared to drop the deliberate.

              • insider

                I’m assuming it was the laugh of the insane

              • insider

                Funny how she never once mentions the airliner debris on the lawn.

                You’d think amongst all the other things she’s assessed she’d have a damn good theory about how the parts were stored inside the building to be found after the event or conveniently dropped in full view in the moments before people arrived on the scene to lend help.

                Odd this is never addressed given that she has worked out everything else. Did she forget?

                • It seems that the only crime in the universe where the people pointing out that there is a problem with the story of the people who have most to gain by the crime, namely the military industrial complex who had earned trillions with the wars started in the aftermath, have to prove their allegations before a police investigation is started is the crime of 911.
                  This compares to a case were bystanders, who after a bloody body has been found, have to prove the guy who inherited all the dosh is guilty, after they point out the story he is telling is scientifically impossible, before a proper police investigation is started.

                  If you find a bloody body and call the police they come and investigate. They interrogate, question and use science to prove or disprove who has done the deed.
                  It is not our job to find out every detail and every facet of the story. We have done our job in that we have pointed out that scientifically the official story is a load of BS.
                  Even the members of the 9/11 commission declared they were set up to fail and are denouncing their own results.

                  We want a new and independent investigation into what happened on that day and we are not alone in this.
                  End of story!

                  • insider

                    I want a new and independent inquiry into why she completely ignores the most telling pieces of evidence, something you just spent a lot of words dancing around but never actually addressed either. Alternatives are fine, but they lack credibility when they just pretend counters don’t exist.

          • travellerev 2.4.2.1.2

            Even NIST denies the damage was cause for the collapse. In fact after seven years they said that they could not explain the collapse of building 7. Could have something to do with the fact that they refused to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition perhaps?

        • mike e 2.4.2.2

          TM building seven how many tonnes of debris fell on building 7
          Do they have cameras pointing at the pentagon all the time maybe now but not then the black box was recovered innocent passengers were killed!
          The right wing will be laughing their heads of off over these conspiracy theorists !

          • travellerev 2.4.2.2.1

            At the time of the attack on the Pentagon some 83 camera’s were pointed at the Pentagon at all times. Every footage of those cameras has been confiscated. We know this because the FBI The FBI acknowledges Having 83 video’s in their possession which they refuse to release. Only 6 frames have been released to date which do not show clear footage.

            • insider 2.4.2.2.1.1

              Here’s one of the classic situations where something mundane gets built upon and reimagined until the ‘facts’ shift to give the veneer of something suspicious.

              “83 camera’s ..pointed at the Pentagon at all times” were nothing of the sort. There were 83 films taken by or given as evidence to the FBI. Most showed no images of the crash site (some were of the WTC events, some were from Florida and one from Wisconsin!) or were by people who attended the site after the event. Some were tourist videos, so pretty bored tourists if they have their cameras pointed at the Pentagon ‘all the time’

              Why were they not released? Because the FOIA request only asked for videos showing the impact. The one that showed it was released after the completion of the Massoui trial.

              Most, if not all, of the others have also been released since. http://penttbom.com/

              So Eve presents a whole lot of not even half truths she has muddled together into a half baked blob of nothing, then adds some fairy dust and hey presto it’s a scandal.

  3. vto 3

    .
    Christchurch, I have realised, is experiencing one of those good old cliches / sayings that your granny always used to say. One of them ones which ring true and you get to see in action from time to time…

    And that is “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”

    This government, with no plan to do anything anywhere in the economy or elsewhere, sees in Christchurch an opportunity to show it does stuff. You know, “right, lets get on with it. No point is sitting around, just get stuck in”. But they are bozos blowing it with their bluster and big man bullshit.

    Two example. Firstly, the blueprint is such a massive undertaking that it is almost certainly going to struggle. Getting into the detail and action it becomes apparent that there are major issues not thought through sufficiently. The sorts of issues that cause things to stall, then re-think, then try again and by that time everyone has realised that the government actually had no idea in the first place.

    Secondly, the school closures. The people and protests on te news are 100% right. The schools have been a beacon of normality for people, especially children. So why the rush? Why not start the conversation now and tell the communities that some time in the next couple of years some schools are going to have to close? Then the communities would have time to adjust, discuss, etc. That would seem to be the obvious and caring way. But no…

    … fools rush in where angels fear to tread

  4. captain hook 4

    sounds good to me vto.
    and by that time a decent Labour government that understands the concept of fair play for all will be back in power and the job can be done properly instead of the Jerry built way they are doing things now.

  5. lprent 5

    Just been reviewing the slow queries log after seeing nasty slowdowns over the last few days. Added a few indexes into comments that hopefully will improve things. Apologies to anyone caught while the scripts were running.

    Oh well off to the paid employment and what looks like a bug deep deep inside of webkit.

    • BernyD 5.1

      Ffox 15.0.1 still acting up wickedly, cleared the cache, sits there going round in circles after reading one article.

      • Carol 5.1.1

        I’m using FF 15.01 and am not, nor have I recently been having, that problem.

        • BernyD 5.1.1.1

          I’ll try a re install then, thanks

        • BernyD 5.1.1.2

          Complete re install fixed it, thanks again

          • lprent 5.1.1.2.1

            Great. I have seen that a few times myself. FF has this script engine that runs a lot of the internals and sometimes it seems to get itself quite screwed up. I suspect plugins myself.

            I’m migrated pretty much to Chrome for normal use these days because it is on all my platforms :- linux, ios, android, virtual microsoft machines, microsoft server 2003 R2 (legacy systems), osx (to use xcode for ios grrr…), and even in the once a month boot of a dual partition vista (for bloody itunes grrr). It also seems to be pretty damn robust and quite fast for every platform I’ve used it on. Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release

            • BernyD 5.1.1.2.1.1

              Yeah suspect it’s flash player myself, re installed it to no avail tho.
              (Had a strange error / crash after visiting the standard this time)
              Haven’t used chrome much, it’s installed but not used.

              • Jokerman

                Transformational Leadership?
                ( google on another tab but slows this old pc)

                • BernyD

                  Revenge of the Fallen?
                  Faster memory

                  • Jokerman

                    The Standard ílluminati taught me how to be Helpful.
                    He teaches me how to care

                  • BernyD

                    Sounds like your walking on ice bud

                    • Jokerman

                      ‘skating away, skating away….on the Thin Ice of a New Day”

                      Well-grounded actually. (just have to manage the emotional cycles of the day)
                      We all have our crosses to bear, i imagine
                      i also imagine the Diversity of people who may read or reference The Standard

                      came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal

                    • BernyD

                      It’s a weak response to the context of the views expressed, not even worth reading, so i didn’t.
                      Context is everything on the Net.

                    • BernyD

                      It’s just a Blog M8!

                    • lprent

                      came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal

                      He is a somewhat selective and always has been. For some strange reason he never seems to get the lesson that it makes very little difference if authors here are using their real names (like Ben Clark), or a psuedonym like myself when I’ve been using the same one for 30 years – it was my first login name, or where it is a psuedonym.

                      But you can’t get a sense of a person until you actually know them in person. Knowing someone on the net is an exercise in knowing one of their personas, the same as it is knowing them where they work, or whatever. It is a spurious argument that knowing who they are offers any particular value to their opinion unless they are an expert in their field like Mike is (which of course neither Whale or the other great whiners about real names – journos – never are).

                      However opinion is opinion and it makes bugger all difference who writes it – it is what it says that is important. You can always tell someone who writes something useful even if you disagree with it. It forces you to think

                      I suspect that what really gets him is the latter point. If you have nothing meaningful to say, then poor opinion like his invariably is gets treated as being crap regardless if it is a psuedo or “real name”. So he clings to the “outing” he was so irritated about 5 years ago just as he clings to his pseudonymous persona….

                    • BernyD

                      Yeah, I scanned it when looking for a blog to read, but landed on the Standard.
                      It was the articles originally.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.1.2

              Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release

              Could be at that. Just checked memory use and it’s using close to 300MB and I thought it was bad when it was using ~100MB. The reason why I didn’t keep using Chrome, even though I liked it, was because Google won’t allow it to block ads from Google (Using AdBlock) but is quite happy for it to block everyone else’s.

              • lprent

                *grin* Now that is a funny…

                I don’t block ads* apart from malware so that isn’t an issue.

                * Actually there are a few ad site that I block by IP – but that is because their ads irriate the hell out of me. I see that we picked one of those up this morning – the jiggling dialog style. I’ll have to tell scoop that the company making it is not to use our site again.

    • lprent 5.2

      Evidently I still haven’t gotten whatever it is. It just happened again.

      Damn. I’ll turn on the full query logging so I can find out what it is doing when I next see the database going ape.

      • Carol 5.2.1

        Something happened when I just posted my comment to Return to Planet Key – I got an error message . Eventually I refreshed and the comment was posted, but I couldn’t edit (minor capitalisation typo).

      • BernyD 5.2.2

        Probably traffic surges, nothing to worry about, let it burp and continue

  6. KJT 6

    Anyone notice the slip of the tongue currently happening in statements from National MP’s.

    Apparently they are now our governors, not our representatives.

    Maybe an admission of the real situation?

    • Draco T Bastard 6.1

      Probably more the way they actually think of themselves. They certainly act as if they’re our overlords rather than our representatives.

      • Anne 6.1.1

        That’s because they think they are our overlords. They’re to damm dumb to know they’re not…

  7. gobsmacked 7

    In Parliament, Grant Robertson has just asked the “Dotcom” questions to the Police Minister that were suggested on this very blog, on Tuesday and Wednesday.

    But she wasn’t there (Brownlee stood in) and nor was Key. They were there on Tuesday and Wednesday. Too late now.

    That’s Labour’s incompetence in a nutshell. If there’s nobody there who can think of this stuff for themselves, why don’t they just have somebody standing by at lunchtime, and we’ll tell them the questions to ask, before 2 pm. No charge for the first ones used – after that, 10% of the MPs’ salary. It’s not like they’re earning it.

  8. Chris 8

    Hear ye!Hear ye! Apparently Commanderkey is announcing,possibly to the world, of his intention to send four SAS personnell to Afghanistan to obtain information on who is responsible for the recent attacks on NZ soldiers. What does SAS stand for? Will not someone see them coming now? Apparently, they will do nothing themselves,but share their info with somebody else. Who?Possibly an infiltrator in the Afghanistan Force. But, that’s alright,apparently this is not a revenge mission.Maybe he just wants an apology and then everything will be ok buddy.
    Hope said personnell are good at their jobs and can stay safe, or stupidkey could have some blood on his hands.
    ps key is an idiot!

    • Murray Olsen 8.1

      Key could get Whalespew and three other gungho volunteers from that vile blog to go and give the “ragheads” what they deserve. I’d contribute a month’s salary on successful completion of the mission.

  9. Draco T Bastard 9

    Oh dear, poor NACt are having a hard time justifying this private prisons business.

    s construction of a new private prison began in south Auckland today, ONE News can reveal the scale of the Government’s controversial deal.

    The prison, located in the suburb of Wiri, had a sod-turning ceremony today but ONE News understands there are hundreds of prison beds lying empty in jails across New Zealand.

    And Serco, the overseas company which will manage the new 960-bed facility, has confirmed it will be paid for 100% occupancy of the prison even if beds remain empty.

    Oops, it seems that the government hiring the private sector just results in the private sector getting government guaranteed profits while not actually saving us money.

    • Carol 9.1

      And it seems the London Stock exchange has been told more about the contract than the NZ public:

      http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/tolley-needs-come-clean-regarding-wiri-prison/5/135340

      “Anne Tolley must, by law, table the contract between Corrections and the Serco-led consortium that will build and operate Wiri. I challenge her to do so before the House rises next Thursday, rather than drop its details during a parliamentary recess, which I am sure is her plan”, Labour’s Justice spokesperson Charles Chauvel, said.

      “Serco told the London Stock Exchange earlier this month that it expected revenues of £15 million (NZ$29 million) per annum from the operation of the prison, and £2 million from the period before the prison even opens. The LSE has more information than the New Zealand public about what the taxpayer will pay under the arrangement.

  10. weka 10

    Conspiracy theories…. do we have some good examples of ones that have been proven true after being written off?

    (we don’t need the WTC as an example thanks, see up thread). 

    • Bob 10.1

      Yip, Hillsborough Disaster, 23 year cover-up just been exposed in the UK http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964 after 3 seperate enquiries finding the fans at fault, the truth has finally been exposed.

    • McFlock 10.2

      Loads.
               
      Cover ups:
      Erebus
      Bloody Sunday Massacre
      Dreyfus Affair

      Other:
      Gunpowder Plot 
      Iran-Contra
      Anything ever done by an intelligence service.
      All the GWBush wars – e.g. yellowcake, “smoking gun”, yadda yadda
      Gulf of Tonkin.

       
       

       
       

    • Murray Olsen 10.3

      I think that, to be labelled a conspiracy, it has to be more than just a coverup after the event. I’d label Hillsborough, Erebus, and Bloody Sunday as coverups, for example.
      The Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Burning of the Reichstag are more deserving of being called conspiracies, as they were both planned in advance. The destruction of the USS Maine in Havana was possibly a false flag operation, which maybe qualifies.
      I think the biggest conspiracy theory of all is the spreading of theories about Bilderberg, the Illuminati, Zionist one world government etc. All these have the effect of causing despair in people because if something is done behind the scenes by almost omnipotent forces, what can be done about it? On the other hand, anyone who analyses capitalism knows broadly what our ruling class will do and what needs to be done to stop it. Of course, this requires a lot more than watching youtube. You have to get off your ass and mobilise for a start. It’s not easy.

      • McFlock 10.3.1

        Yeah, there is an instinctive distinction between a plain “coverup” and a full conspiracy. But then the coverup can be an extensive and systemic conspiracy, e.g. Dreyfus.
              
        The trouble is that a lot of the stuff that happens in the world isn’t anyone’s master plan, most of the time it’s an improvised response to a changing situation which folk then quietly work around. ISTR that the Nazis mounted a real “false flag” operation in 1939, staging an attack on their own border posts by pretend-Polish soldiers. 
           
        Watergate definitely counted as a conspiracy, but then it was another programme that evolved into illegal activities beyond par.
           
        As an aside, the most reasonable explanation I read for the USS Maine was that it was a coal bunker fire that had heat conducted through the metal structure to an ammunition bunker. But then it was certainly perverted and transformed into a casus belli. 

  11. BernyD 11

    God bless the NZ SAS and their Friends in combat and those they are protecting.
    It’s possible, they are trying.
    In the name of peacefull coexistence and life I bless them.

    • kiwi_prometheus 11.1

      Are you suppose to be a priest or something?

      • BernyD 11.1.1

        Agnostic, and no.

        • kiwi_prometheus 11.1.1.1

          Your “blessing” is worth about sweet FA then.

          • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1

            lol
            Only if you’re an atheist. 

            • kiwi_prometheus 11.1.1.1.1.1

              I was just having a go at him because of his unctuous drivel.

              Woody Allen put the dilemma well:

              You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.

              If you do believe in a god you got a BIG problem proving it – you just got to have “faith”.

              • BernyD

                God is thought, life tells us to grow and think
                evolved over billions of years.

                • kiwi_prometheus

                  That’s an old idea.

                  It was super ceded by Hegel’s Phenomenology of Spirit. The world and human civilization were the material expression of Spirit/Idea.

                  Then Marx came along and took the next logical step removing the Spirit/Idea part for an efficiency gain. All that there is, is material, and man is God.

              • McFlock

                Two points:
                If the universe is a cold meaningless place, then the warmth and meaning of people is much more important.
                     
                And asserting that anyone’s blessing is worth sweet FA is a much stronger religious assertion than a quick blessing by someone who’s not entirely sure it will have an effect.

                • kiwi_prometheus

                  “the warmth and meaning of people”

                  The problem is they stop existing.

                  • McFlock

                    So we find the warmth where we can, and we provide warmth for others.

                    • kiwi_prometheus

                      Then you drop dead.

                      See? Absurd.

                    • McFlock

                      If a light is turned off, does that mean it never shone?
                      The act of extinguishing it requires that it have been bright in the first place. 
                         
                      Shit changes. The word turns. If we lived forever Hitler would still be farting and ranting.

              • Pascal's bookie

                You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.

                Er, nope. That doesn’t follow at all.

                That only makes sense if a god is the only thing that could prevent a universe being ‘indifferent, cold, and meaningless’; and I can’t think of any reason why that might be, or any reason why an atheist would believe it. It’s pants pretty much.

                • kiwi_prometheus

                  So where is the meaning? Seems like countless philosophers, poets, artists have struggled with it.

                  So what makes you think you’ve bagged it?

                  Please share.

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    A pretty silly demand to make k-p.

                    You are the one who has suggested that god is a necessary condition for ‘meaning’ (and so on), in the universe. I said that has not been shown to be the case. You haven’t established that.

                    How does it follow from from what I said, that I should have ‘bagged’ whatever it is you think that theologians have over philosphers?

                    Short answer, it doesn’t. Typical slippery question begging from the theologician camp.

                    Explain to me why god is necessary for the things you claim.

                    You’ll need to define those things first, (the opposites of ‘indifferent, cold, meaningless’) and as you do so, be careful that that what you are describing are not subjective experiences of the universe by sentient beings. Because if that’s the case, then what’s needed for those things to exist is sentient beings, not necessarily gods.

                    • kiwi_prometheus

                      I dont believe in the existence of a God.

                      So my dilemma is finding meaning.

                      Whereas God believers are stuck with “faith” and questions like “If God is so freaking loving and all powerful why are there little children who have had their feet and hands blown off by mines disguised as children’s toys?”

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Meaning is a subjective thing k-p. In the western way of looking at it at least.

                      Sticking with that angle, meaning is what people find. It’s how they perceive, explain, experience.

                      You are not going to find it on the outside, it must be active, and provided by yourself. And it won’t be universal. One person’s experience of the universe will, of necessity, be different to everyone else’s, so it’s cray cray to expect their meanings to be the same, and that’s ok.

                      Or to take a more eastern angle, we are ourselves just ‘expressions of the universe’.

                      I’m the universe being me, just as my chair is the universe being a chair.
                      Why? To what end?
                      Ends in themselves, strip away the ego, and just let the universe be the things it is. Relish that and savour it. Be the universe observing itself.

                      Both those angles are saying the same thing by the way.

              • Draco T Bastard

                You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.

                Ah, no. It doesn’t require a god to make the universe a place of wonder and adventure.

  12. RedBaron 12

    And talking about state capture of a process:
    http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/govt-confirms-earthquake-commission-review.

    Only selected stakeholders are getting a say in this while the general public will get a couple of weeks to comment at the end. The private insurers must be drooling in anticipation. Lean on your MP to open up the submissions?

  13. kiwi_prometheus 13

    “Gay marriage” has taken a hammering over in Aussie. Voted down big time twice!

    Hopefully it falls on its face here too.

    • XTASY 13.1

      On this one you have a point. NZ Labour and Greens focussed largely on it, but they neglecte other “issues”. Something to think aboout perhaps.

      • kiwi_prometheus 13.1.1

        The right wingers took a big hit though. One of their top players had to quit after saying if gay marriage is permissible why not bestiality?

        I think he has got a good point – its the Slippery Slope argument. But he went down in a hail of bullets from the media and opponents, his argument dismissed as “ridiculous” or “homophobic” whatever the fuck that is suppose to mean. :roll:

        • McFlock 13.1.1.1

          How does the concept “any two consenting adults can marry” slide into “people will marry their pets”? 
                 
          Marriage is between consenting parties. Animals (and for that matter children) cannot consent to anything. 

          • kiwi_prometheus 13.1.1.1.1

            “Marriage is between consenting parties.”

            A father and his son?

            “How does the concept “any two consenting adults can marry” slide into “people will marry their pets”? ”

            It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.1

              You mean where both are old enough to consent?
                     
              Wouldn’t that conflict with the familial relationship, though? I’ll give you that, then – make it “consenting parties who aren’t closely related”.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                See there you go – now YOU are deny rights to people.

                So obviously you dont think individual rights are absolute.

                And neither do I.

                Basically you’re pushing rational contract theory – the same one that is the foundation for neo classical economics actually – rational individual free agents entering contracts with each other. And look where that has got us, haha.

                So back to marriage. Consent is NECESSARY, but it is not SUFFICIENT. Is love necessary let alone sufficient? No, after all it can be faked.

                But it is necessary but not sufficient that the two agents be of the opposite sex, there are physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement that is and must be acknowledged in the idea of marriage.

                • McFlock

                  No, you presented a counter example and I said okay, that would involve a conflict of interests, I’ll give you that one. But there is no conflict of interests between two unrelated men marrying, any mor that between an unrelated man and woman.
                         
                  Any union between two people involves  “physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement”. Why does gender need to be singled out?

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    “Why does gender need to be singled out?”

                    If your relationship does not have those unique elements of one based on consent, you don’t qualify for marriage.

                    If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.

                    Pretending that “gender doesnt matter” will destroy the meaning of marriage.

                    Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that, but of course once they got it, they then wanted more.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Wow! Have you ever considered ringing a talkback station?
                       
                      “Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be  recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.”
                       
                      Why must it?

                    • McFlock

                      If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.

                      No. 
                      Marriage is a legal recognition of a relationship between people that, in many instances, is more intimate than most familial bonds. 
                           
                      Nothing about ‘nads in it at all.

                    • gobsmacked

                      Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that

                      Did you support that legislation, or oppose it?

                    • felix

                      lolz.

                      Poor little k_p still hasn’t figured out where babies come from.

            • XTASY 13.1.1.1.1.2

              his is idiot stuff. let us focus on what is important!

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.3

              It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.

              Love is a mutual emotion. As far as I can see, nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”. That would be against the entire concept of marriage. Both parties at the ceremony say “I do”, not one party saying “I’ll take that one”. But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.
                     
               

              • kiwi_prometheus

                “Love is a mutual emotion.”

                No way! Come on, its the core of a million love stories, you know the quote “When the object of ones affection…”

                “But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.”

                Very much, see above ^.

                “nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”.”

                See above ^.

                • McFlock

                  Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.
                     
                  If you want soppy love quotes, love is when you’re prepared to share the deepest, darkest, worst thing about yourself to another person, and it doesn’t matter to them.

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    “Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.”

                    Poets and novelists have been writing about love for thousands of years.

                    You really think you know what its all about? Then you should write the book, and make your fortune.

                    • McFlock

                      Some people find Twilight romantic.  Others see an abusive and emotionally controlling relationship. Meh.

              • Draco T Bastard

                That would be against the entire concept of marriage.

                Depends upon which culture you’re looking at. Several cultures had/have arranged marriages where people are married against their will.

            • Pascal's bookie 13.1.1.1.1.4

              It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.

              I’ve never seen that expressed as anything other than ‘let us marry each other’, or ‘let me marry someone I am in love with’.

              But sure, if you have an example of anyone suggesting non-consensual gay marriage, I’ll be against that. But I bet you can’t.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                What do you mean? It was on a protester’s sign in a pic on a thread here.

                • fatty

                  Come on KP – you can’t be serious.
                  If that sign was at a gay marriage protest, then ‘who I love’ is referring to their partner…not their Grandma.
                  If a pub has a sign outside saying ‘smoking section’…that does not mean you can pull out a glass pipe and start smoking crack – it is referring to cigarettes/tobacco.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Gosh. A sign at a protest you say. Certainly put me in my place.

    • millsy 13.2

      Do you want homosexuality recriminalised?

    • Murray Olsen 13.3

      Kiwi_prometheus
      If you wish to have sex with animals, or even confine this to one animal, go for it. I really don’t care either way. I just hope it’s a carnivore with large teeth.
      The only essential difference I see among people is that some want a better world for themselves and others want a better world for society as a whole. This has nothing to do with gender.

  14. Draco T Bastard 14

    Crisis or Breakdown?

    Why has it failed? Because capitalism is a mode of production for profit; and profitability is in secular and terminal decline, in Graeber’s view. Graeber says there are three claims that capitalism makes to justify it as a progressive mode of social organisation: it fosters scientific and technological growth; second, it increases overall prosperity; and third, it creates a more secure and democratic world. But it increasingly fails to deliver on all three: “we can feel especially confident that none of this will happen within the framework of contemporary capitalism or any form of capitalism”.

    Emphasis mine:

    The drive for profit and accumulation must result in advancement in technology being curtailed as capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares. To prop up profit essential services are being cut.

    • kiwi_prometheus 14.1

      Conflating capitalism and democracy is what right wingers do.

      Capitalism and democracy chaff. But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!

      “capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares”

      Its not about Capitalism doing this. It’s democracy which can – re ozone depletion and solution.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1

        But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!

        Really? Did you not notice the increasing poverty over the last 30 years? The quarter of a million children in hardship? The majority of the people aren’t getting a good deal. In fact, they’re being shafted so as to prop up the 1% profits.

        Its not about Capitalism doing this.

        No, it’s about capitalism preventing it. That’s why NACT keep saying that we need to balance between the economy and the environment means.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.2

      As an addendum to that one have this one:
      Of Flying Cars

      Americans do not like to think of themselves as a nation of bureaucrats—quite the opposite—but the moment we stop imagining bureaucracy as a phenomenon limited to government offices, it becomes obvious that this is precisely what we have become.

      And that most definitely applies to NZ as well. Contrary to what most people seem to believe about the free-market the bureaucrats have taken over.

  15. kiwi_prometheus 15

    There’s no reply link on the gay marriage strand!

    “Did you support that legislation, or oppose it?”

    I supported it.

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  • Reo Māori Policy Launch
    MANA will be launching its Reo Māori policy at 10am Thursday 24 July, at Matangireia (the old Māori Affairs Select Committee room at Parliament). We will also be addressing our concerns regarding the Minister of Māori Affairs Māori Language Strategy...
    Mana | 22-07
  • Basin Flyover decision victory for common sense
    The Green Party welcomed the Environmental Protection Authority's draft decision announced today not to allow the $90 million Basin Reserve flyover in Wellington to proceed."Both popular and expert opinion opposed the flyover. The proposal was expensive, unnecessary and would have...
    Greens | 22-07
  • Laila Harre to run against Key in Helensville
    Another full house in Rotorua as part of Internet MANAs road trip Another day, another full house for the Internet MANA road trip. John Armstrong understands the energy now swirling around Internet MANA, and the latest announcements of Georgina Beyer...
    The Daily Blog | 29-07
  • Waiting for Gower’s Twittering of indignation…
    .   . Key has made his call; deals with ACT and Peter Dunne are in – a deal with the CCCP (Colin Craig’s Conservative Party), is out; . . Now we can look forward to TV3′s political commentator, Patrick...
    The Daily Blog | 29-07
  • National’s desperate oil drilling agenda exposed
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: National’s desperate oil drilling agenda exposed Tuesday, 29 Jul 2014 | Press Release A Wall Street Journal article exposing the Government’s attempts to lure deep sea oil drillers to New Zealand shows...
    The Daily Blog | 29-07
  • Owner of Kiwis’ favourite tacos takes bold stand for climate action
    MIL OSI – Source: Oxfam NZ – Headline: Owner of Kiwis' favourite tacos takes bold stand for climate action The maker of Old El Paso tacos, Betty Crocker cake mixes and Haagan Daz ice-cream has today committed to industry-leading measures...
    The Daily Blog | 29-07
  • Out of touch Brownlee gets numbers wrong
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Out of touch Brownlee gets numbers wrong Gerry Brownlee has shown how badly he is managing the rebuild by getting his figures wrong on how many houses are needed in Christchurch, Labour’s...
    The Daily Blog | 29-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Michael Wood: Weekend at Bernie’s lll – ACT in Epsom
    While no one will be surprised by yesterday’s deal to prop up ACT in Epsom, the audacity of it is still astounding. ACT is a political corpse. Their sole MP has been found guilty of electoral fraud and bides his...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • So how’s all the ‘ Labour Party man ban’ hysteria working out for you...
    Remember all the screams from the media at the so called ‘man ban’ of the Labour Party? Labour’s attempt at gender equality was really just more evidence of Labour’s man hate,  feminists were taking over, heterosexual red blooded men burnt at the stake....
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Paul Henry; the issue is you, not flag-burning
    There will always be reductive, dangerous and reactionary responses to different forms of oppressive violence by our western, often biased, mainstream media. These reactionary responses purposefully distract from the real issues and those who are at the root and the...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Oh now John Armstrong and Vernon Small want to talk about policy?
    The audacity of the mainstream media seems to know no end. This week both John Armstrong and Vernon Small had the hilarity to demand a focus on policy and not ‘gotcha’ politics… John Armstrong: The ‘gotcha politics’ disease is afflicting...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • “They put Maori centre stage” – Harawira
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: “They put Maori centre stage” – Harawira  Posted on July 24, 2014 by admin in Hone Harawira, Press Releases“I’m sorry I can’t be at parliament for the valedictory speeches of Tariana Turia...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Burning the flag or accepting the evil
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: Burning the flag or accepting the evil Posted on July 24, 2014 by admin in Hone Harawira, Press ReleasesBurning the Israeli flag in Auckland in protest over the murder of innocent civilians...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • TAXPAYER UNION “outrageously stupid”
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: TAXPAYER UNION “outrageously stupid” Posted on July 24, 2014 by admin in Hone Harawira, Press ReleasesJordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says a MANA billboard “appears to have been funded by taxpayers”,...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Tōku reo, tōku oho oho, tōku reo, tōku mapihi maurea – MANA launches ...
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: Tōku reo, tōku oho oho, tōku reo, tōku mapihi maurea – MANA launches te reo Māori policy  Posted on July 24, 2014 by admin in Annette Sykes, Press Releases, Te Hamua Nikora“MANA...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Green Party launches Solar in Schools policy
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: Green Party launches Solar in Schools policy Thursday, 24 Jul 2014 | Press Release Our Solar in Schools policy will allow them to save money on electricity – money which can be...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Media Release: New report on GP costs for 6-17 year olds
    MIL OSI – Source: Child Poverty Action Group – Headline: Media Release: New report on GP costs for 6-17 year olds 24 July 2014 Free doctor’s visits should be extended to all children under 18 as GP charges are a...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • 3 reasons why I can’t care about Gerry Brownlee’s airport security fias...
    I find it very difficult to get upset about Gerry Brownlee barging through airport security for 3 simple reasons. Firstly I think airport security in this country is a total farce. Why we need to be conditioned to security searches...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • How the Opposition win Epsom now Key has cemented Goldsmith into place
    One fear I had this election would be that National listened to Matthew Hooton and removed Goldsmith from the ballot box to leave the race open enough for David Seymour to ensure an ACT Party victory. Thankfully National Party hubris...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Now Conservative Party has been killed off, is a vote for NZ First a vote f...
    Are Winston and John Key new Best Friends Forever?   Colin Craig and his Conservative Party have been cleverly played and tricked and trapped by National. Whatever promises and flirtations Key made with Craig last year have eventuated into nothing....
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • The front page the NZ Herald would use if they thought they could get away ...
    The front page the NZ Herald would use if they thought they could get away with it...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Best National Party Billboard
    Best National Party Billboard...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Annette Sykes to launch campaign for Waiariki Annette Sykes, MANA candidate...
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: Annette Sykes to launch campaign for Waiariki Annette Sykes, MANA candidate for Waiariki Posted on July 28, 2014 by admin in Annette Sykes, Press ReleasesAt midday tomorrow, Annette Sykes will officially launch...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Something Fishy About Nick Smith’s Game.
    NICK SMITH’S crude intimidation of the Fish and Game Council points to the bleakest of environmental futures should National be re-elected on 20 September. It is now considerably clearer than 60 percent of New Zealand’s lakes, rivers and streams that...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Minister shouldn’t stop Fish and Game doing its job
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: Minister shouldn’t stop Fish and Game doing its job Monday, 28 Jul 2014 | Press Release Fish and Game is supposed to advocate for clean and healthy rivers, it’s the law. It...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Key’s odd personal hypocrisy in Epsom, his kiss of death to the Maori Par...
    Aside from tricking Colin Craig into running in an electorate National can crush him in, John Key has announced three things in his election deals that are ill thought out. The first is his deal with the Maori Party. At a time...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Public deserves electoral integrity
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Public deserves electoral integrity National’s deals with spent political forces ACT and United Future will be met with a deepening sense of unease over the manipulation of MMP, Labour Leader David Cunliffe...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Out of control costs raise questions about National Science Challenges
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Out of control costs raise questions about National Science Challenges Amid strong criticism of the value of the National Science Challenges from some of the country’s senior scientists, new figures show administrative...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Low build numbers and faulty repairs: what has Brownlee been doing?
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Low build numbers and faulty repairs: what has Brownlee been doing? Despite being a man in a hurry new figures show just 2160 new homes, thousands fewer than needed, have been built...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • UNEMIG: Disgraced hotel operator still hasn’t learned
    MIL OSI – Source: First Union – Headline: UNEMIG: Disgraced hotel operator still hasn’t learned A publicly disgraced Auckland hotel is still not paying their workers the minimum wage, according to the Union Network of Migrants (UNEMIG). Last week the...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Christchurch CHEP workers walk off the job again
    MIL OSI – Source: First Union – Headline: Christchurch CHEP workers walk off the job again Workers at Brambles-owned CHEP Christchurch have walked off the job again today to protest the employer’s refusal to negotiate an improved pay offer, according...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Why it’s all over for the Conservative Party
    Whatever flirtations were made months ago to Colin Craig by National strategists, the polling must have come back showing them too much of their soft urban vote would walk if Key was in Government with Colin Craig.  The necessary inside muscle to...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Balance in the NZ Herald and has something gone terribly wrong at the Heral...
    So the ‘balance’ in the NZ Herald this year for the election will be… Guest columnists will include the acerbic Cactus Kate from the radical right, former Labour candidate Josie Pagani and broadcaster Mark Sainsbury. Right, so that would be...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Joyce’s heavy hand stifling innovation
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: Joyce’s heavy hand stifling innovation Monday, 28 Jul 2014 | Press Release “The heavy hand of Steven Joyce is destroying New Zealand’s innovation economy.” The National Government should allow scientists and businesses...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • CERA spends almost $2m on 7000 flights
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: CERA spends almost $2m on 7000 flights CERA has spent $1.8 million on 7286 flights from Christchurch to Wellington in three years – a huge waste of money as Cantabrians still wait...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Nick Smith oversteps the mark yet again
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Nick Smith oversteps the mark yet again Nick Smith has yet again completely overstepped the mark as a minister – this time with a threat to muzzle Fish and Game if they...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Phew – National Party hubris seals strategy
    The National Party are bot listening to Matthew Hooton. Phew. Hooton has crunched the numbers and based on past polling National always drops 6 points come election day. National aren’t listening. Barging through the need to cut deals with all...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Noam Chomsky on the TPPA
    Noam Chomsky on the TPPA...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Unacceptable secrecy around labelling people terrorists
    It’s good to see the Sunday Star-Times attempting to get more information from government agencies about Daryl Jones, the Kiwi killed in a US drone strike in Yemen.  The paper is right to complain about the government’s refusal to provide...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • A critical deconstruction of John Key – what’s behind the facade?
    Aspiring national leaders need a popular narrative of their rise to power.  Once in office, the narrative can be refined to fit the requirements of leadership and re-election.  Such is the purpose of John Roughan’s John Key: Portrait of  a...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Radio Live – off Mark
    The Top Marks lasted five weeks on Mediaworks radio station The Sound. This may have something to do with last being relevant in the mid-1980s when there were only two commercial FM licences in Auckland and they were on one...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Wellingtonians say ‘No!’ to Israeli aggression
    .   . Wellington, NZ, 26 July – About 600 Wellingtonians, and from further afield, met at the Cuba Mall Bucket fountain under a wintery sunny sky, to protest Israel’s continuing aggression in the Gaza strip, which – at the...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Greens call for shipping lanes backed by Maritime Union
    MIL OSI – Source: Maritime Union of New Zealand – Headline: Greens call for shipping lanes backed by Maritime Union The Maritime Union is backing the Green Party’s policy to implement compulsory shipping lanes for coastal shipping, announced 27 July...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Government needs to get Fishing reform bill passed now
    MIL OSI – Source: Maritime Union of New Zealand – Headline: Government needs to get Fishing reform bill passed now The Maritime Union is urging the Government to push through a Bill reforming the fishing industry. Maritime Union of New...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga  Posted on July 27, 2014 by admin in Hone Harawira, Press Releases“It’s great to have Georgie on board” said Hone Harawira, MANA...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Israel/Gaza conflict: Questions and Answers
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Israel/Gaza conflict: Questions and Answers What does Amnesty International think of the resolution passed by the UN Human Rights Council on 23 July? What should happen next?Amnesty International welcomes resolution S-21/1...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Green Party launches plan to protect our beaches from oil spills
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: Green Party launches plan to protect our beaches from oil spills Sunday, 27 Jul 2014 | Press Release Like New Zealand chose to go nuclear free, we can add to our national...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Shasha Ali – I am an indigenous person but I will never call ...
    Yesterday was indeed a politically hectic day in Aoteaora New Zealand, especially if you are an activist that cares about both human and non-human animal rights. Protest actions were organised to demand an end to factory farming from about noon, and...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine or ‘Pro-Peace’?
    Latest protest for people of Gaza in Auckland In the past couple of weeks I have heard a lot of people say that they are neither Pro-Israel nor Pro-Palestine; they are pro-peace. This is a stand that I respect. Everyone...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • So we can’t feed the kids, the poor OR the sick now?
    Let me get this straight. We can borrow $10 billion in tax cuts over the last 6 years for the richest NZers, but we can not feed the kids, the poor or even the sick now? Revealed: Warning over hospital food...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Kim Dotcom has said it, Laila Harre has said it and now David fisher says i...
    Fascinating piece by David Fisher in the NZ Herald breaking down how many opportunities the Government had to listen to officials and stop KDC entering the country and concludes KDC should never have been allowed in… It prepared papers for the...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • You, Me and the GCSB Public Meetings
      The GCSB and TICS legislation rushed through Parliament by John Key represent the largest erosion of civil liberties this country has seen since the 1951 Waterfront Lockout. In the post Snowden world we now know a mass surveillance state operating...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • Harré: It’s Game on in Helensville
    Harré: It’s Game on in Helensville Internet Party Leader Laila Harré will stand in John Key’s Helensville electorate because “the Prime Minister has some explaining to do”. Ms Harré wants to debate Mr Key at candidate meetings in his own...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • Ministers condemned for failing to meet Papuan journalist
    West Papua Action Auckland is shocked that that Ministers Coleman and Tolley have decided against giving even a brief time to meet with visiting Papuan journalist Victor Mambor (Chair of the Papua Chapter of the Association of Independent Journalists...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • Cliff Curtis Apolitical
    While I respect my cousin Annette Sykes commitment in engaging in the political process, I do not endorse or support any political party. I respect all candidates who make the commitment to stand for political office. It requires and takes...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • National getting students into science
    National Party Hutt South candidate Chris Bishop today supported the government’s launch of A Nation of Curious Minds: He Whenua Hirihi I te Mahara, a programme to boost community involvement in the science sector....
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • NZ NGOs respond to the worsening humanitarian crisis in Gaza
    NZ NGOs are responding to the worsening humanitarian crisis in the Gaza strip with news today of an upsurge in violence and an increasing number of civilian casualties....
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • ACT Candidate for Epsom delighted by second endorsement
    ACT Candidate for Epsom delighted by second endorsement David Seymour, ACT Candidate for Epsom 29/07/2014...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • Colin Craig (sic) Launches New Website
    Colin Craig today advised that his web presence was not large enough, especially when compared to similarly polling parties such as the Internet/Mana Party. “After extensive discussion and advice from my full time legal team, and my IT part timer...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • Spat between Minister Smith and Fish and Game overdue – ACT
    With the latest spat between Minister Nick Smith and Fish and Games Bryce Johnston hitting fever pitch, ACT Primary Industry Spokesman Don Nicolson says a review of the Fish and Game legislation will be an ACT ambition in the next...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • Maori King challenges Ngapuhi leader to front up
    Following his strong condemnation of the Maori King, Tuheitia yesterday, Ngapuhi kaumatua David Rankin has received a challenge this afternoon from prominent Kingitanga [King Movement] supporter Mamae Takerei....
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • ACT Speech to Waikato Conference: Race has no place in law
    David Cunliffe recently apologised to a Women’s Refuge symposium: “I don't often say it – I'm sorry for being a man … because family and sexual violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men.” The Prime Minister accused Cunliffe of being insincere....
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • Greg Campbell Chief Executive of Wellington Regional Council
    Chair of Wellington Regional Council, Fran Wilde today announced the appointment of Greg Campbell as Chief Executive of the Council. Greg Campbell will take up the role in September following the departure of outgoing Chief Executive David Benham...
    Scoop politics | 29-07
  • We are going to campaign harder
    “It was great news to learn that John Key says I am his recommendation for Epsom. While the Prime Minister is an important person and he is my pick to remain Prime Minister, John Key is just one voter. I...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Why Green isn’t the best colour for water
    Why Green isn’t the best colour for water Ian Mackenzie is Federated Farmers Environment spokesperson and was on the reference group for the National Objectives Framework. An opinion is also running in the New Zealand Herald. The Green Party recently...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Rainbow Wellington General Election Candidates Forum
    In many ways the transgender community is in a similar position now to that faced by lesbians and gay men a generation ago. It is having to face many of the same difficulties, often based on the same ignorance and...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Defence Lawyer Disgust!!!
    “ The Sensible Sentencing Trust is horrified by Defence Lawyer Steven Zindel's comments at the Sentencing of a Man Jailed for the Rape of his 4 year old daughter .”...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Ōhāriu deserves better than a rort
    The National Party's deal with Peter Dunne is a rort and shows the people of Ōhāriu are being taken for granted, Labour candidate Virginia Andersen says. "Peter Dunne has been placed on political life support by the National Party. His...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • FMC Backs Fish and Game’s Role on Freshwater
    Federated Mountain Clubs today reinforced its strong support for the New Zealand Fish and Game Council's statutory role in advocating for anglers and hunters interests in freshwater. FMC President Robin McNeill stated that the Federation's 17,000 members...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • The Letter: Key Gives Nod for Seymour in Epsom
    This afternoon the PM acknowledged the importance of Epsom to National’s re-election prospects when said he wanted National’s supporters in Epsom to vote for ACT’S David Seymour. We always thought David could win Epsom, for which he has been campaigning...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Forest & Bird supports Fish and Game’s freshwater advocacy
    The independent conservation organisation Forest & Bird is concerned over allegations the Fish & Game Council has been threatened over its advocacy for freshwater quality....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Time for Epsom to say “no deal”
    “Epsom voters will be disgusted by the deal announced today to try and once again gift their electorate to the ACT Party”, says Labour candidate for Epsom Michael Wood....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Petition for release the of seven Bah
    At the invitation of the Honourable Annette King the New Zealand Bahá'í community is presenting a petition to the House of Representatives asking the NZ government to demand the release of the seven former leaders of the Baha’i community in...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Capital gains in the capital city
    Victoria University will today be hosting a public debate on the merits of more comprehensive capital gains tax—a step which taxation expert Associate Professor Dr David White considers would be beneficial for New Zealand. Organised by student group Beta Alpha...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Te Kupenga supports efforts of anti-violence campaigner
    Te Kupenga Whakaoti Mahi Patunga – National Network of Stopping Violence Services (Te Kupenga) wholeheartedly endorses statements made by DJ, Kickboxer and Anti-Violence Campaigner Richie Hardcore this morning on TV3’s Firstline about the role of men...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • iPredict Ltd2014 Election Update #28
    The chances of a fiscal surplus in 2014/15 continue to plunge and are down to 50%, according to the combined wisdom of the 7000 registered traders on New Zealand’s online predictions market, iPredict. The forecast surplus is now just 0.22%...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • TPPA is a bad idea
    “Currently New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Brunei, Vietnam, the USA, Japan, Malaysia, Canada, and Mexico are still negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement. Officially talks finished last August, but the reality is that they keep...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Getting privacy right in our data future
    Privacy Commissioner John Edwards welcomes the release of the New Zealand Data Futures Forum’s report....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Conference on Democracy, Ethics and the Public Good
    Conference on Democracy, Ethics and the Public Good A conference is to be held in Wellington on 1 and 2 August with the aim of starting a NZ-wide discussion about the quality of our democracy. The conference is hosted jointly...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Paddock to plate, and smart roads possible
    New Zealand’s international brand and exports could grow significantly with the creation of a data sharing ‘eco-system’ according to a paper released by the NZ Data Futures Forum today....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Ngapuhi wants to overthrow Maori King
    Ngapuhi is planning a hui for the end of the year – organised by iwi leader David Rankin – in which the future of the King Movement will be discussed....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Housing warrant of fitness little help for sick children
    A housing warrant of fitness has been promoted as a way of preventing sickness among children in poverty. The attached report shows that such a regime would have little impact on health outcomes but would come at a considerable cost,...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Upcoming Fabian Events in Auckland
    Sue Bradford ’s PhD thesis, 'A major left wing think tank in Aotearoa—an impossible dream or a call to action?' looked at why no major left wing think tank has developed in Aotearoa and whether the left in 2010-2013 was...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Senior Citizens, Not Senile Citizens
    The Taxpayers’ Union is questioning the merits and costs of the “ No car? No problem! Getting around your community without a car” brochure, released by the Office for Senior Citizens. The brochure’s purpose is to explain to senior citizens...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • NZ Troops Hone Their Skills in Queensland
    Around 260 New Zealand troops are on a 25-day Australian-led warfighting exercise in Townsville, Northern Queensland....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Maritime Union backs Green Party call for shipping lanes
    The Maritime Union is backing the Green Party’s policy to implement compulsory shipping lanes for coastal shipping, announced today....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Auckland Council Bypasses Public, Ditches Rodeo Ban
    Auckland Council Bypasses Public, Ditches Rodeo Ban The Auckland Council has announced that they are abandoning the rodeo ban on council land, put into place in 2008. This was done with virtually no consultation, says SAFE, the animal advocacy organisation....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Tolley and Coleman urged to meet West Papuan visitor
    Ministers Tolley and Coleman urged to meet West Papuan visitor Police Minister Anne Tolley and Defence Minister Dr Jonathan Coleman have a rare opportunity this week to gain first-hand knowledge about Indonesian police and military activities in West...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Minister Right to Give Fish & Game a Serve
    Reacting to Radio New Zealand’s report concerning allegations that Conservation Minister Nick Smith warned the Fish and Game Council that it acts like a 'rabid NGO', Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says:...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Government needs to get Fishing reform bill passed now
    The Maritime Union is urging the Government to push through a Bill reforming the fishing industry....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Ivory trade laws look set to tighten following petition
    A petition mounted by an Auckland schoolteacher has won the support of a powerful Select Committee and has moved the New Zealand closer towards a fully enforceable ivory trading ban....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Bilingual guide a demonstration of leadership
    “Waikato River Restoration: A Bilingual Guide” to the Waikato River that saw Tainui Waikato, Landcare Trust and the Waikato River Authority working together is a demonstration of rangatiratanga or leadership says Race Relations Commissioner...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga
    "It's great to have Georgie on board" said Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP. "She's strong-minded, stands up to be counted, and has fought for the rights of those who haven't had any - and won. That...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Sir Bob Harvey
    SUSAN Sir Bob Harvey was behind the transformation of Norm Kirk, and one of New Zealand's most popular Prime Ministers. He also advised Bill Rowling, David Lange and Helen Clark, the latter as Labour Party President. Wild Westie a new...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Rod Drury
    Xero boss Rod Drury told TVNZ’s Q+A programme what the political parties are offering at this election is ‘all too small.’ “There's no policy, all it is a bunch of incremental stuff. “All too small. What we want to do...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Gerry Brownlee
    Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee Rules Out Fastracking Auckland’s City Rail Loop Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee told TV1’s Q+A programme this morning that he won’t be bringing forward an Auckland City Rail loop based on new figures showing...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Owen interviews Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey
    Lisa Owen interviews Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey Headlines: Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey suggests “we can move on some” changes to welfare for New Zealanders in Australia New Zealanders “brothers and sisters” who make “a massive contribution”,...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Flavell and Harawira on The Nation
    Lisa Owen interviews Maori Party leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana leader Hone Harawira Headlines: Hone Harawira says realistically his Mana Party can take three Maori seats, Te Ururoa Flavell sticks to prediction that Maori Party will win all seven....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • The Nation 26,27 July: Flavell & Harawira, Joe Hockey
    On The Nation this weekend…. With the Maori seats primed to play a pivotal role this election, Torben Akel reports from the key battlegrounds and meets the top contenders. Then the Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana Party...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Announcement of New Zealand First Candidate for Rangitīkei
    New Zealand First has endorsed Dr Romuald (‘Rom’) Rudzki as the candidate for the Rangitīkei Electorate in the 2014 General Election....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Labour Offer Len Brown a Hotel Tax
    The Taxpayers’ Union is slamming the Labour Party's plan to allow councils to levy new 'pillow taxes' and regional petrol taxes. Reacting to this afternoon’s NZ Herald report Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union ,...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Cell phone evidence a first
    Cell phone evidence a first Evidence gathered solely from a cell phone has been used for the first time to convict a Hastings man for possessing child sexual abuse pictures. Michael Lawrence Worsnop, a 29-year-old orchard worker pleaded guilty to...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
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