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Open mike 20/09/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 20th, 2012 - 200 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

200 comments on “Open mike 20/09/2012”

  1. lprent 1

    I had to leave a rather long note about when and how we moderate on legal issues and public interest because Bob (at least) clearly doesn’t understand it.

    http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19092012/#comment-523421

    You’d think that after all of these years since Lange vs Atkinson that people will have caught up with the arguments that the court of appeal and privy council ruled on.

  2. Try clapping your hands 110 times within 13 secs. That’s how fast the floors were pulverized. It went so fast, they couldn’t even hit eachother. The floors were pulverized to dust in mid-air.

    The Toronto hearings condensed for those of you interested to hear what scientists, Architects and engineers have to say about the events of 9/11

    • Fuck man, give it up. No one believes your stupid conspiracy theories.

      • thatguynz 2.1.1

        No.  All your comment means is that YOU don’t.

      • freedom 2.1.2

        So, Mary Mary quite contrary can you explain why 9/11 truth groups are showing ever increasing numbers of members ?

        • QoT 2.1.2.1

          Without commenting on the merits of this particular instance, it seems fairly logical that the further away we get from an event, the more plausible different theories about it are. Fewer people have direct knowledge, primary sources start to fade … see also: Nazca Plateau, Jack the Ripper, the moon landings.

      • vto 2.1.3

        That’s a bit harsh contrarian.

        Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK?

        • TheContrarian 2.1.3.1

          “can you explain why 9/11 truth groups are showing ever increasing numbers of members?” 

          Argumentum ad populum. It is irrelevant how many people believe it.

          Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK?”

          Of course

        • Tiger Mountain 2.1.3.2

          I am healthily skeptical about 9/11 particularly building 7 and the Pentagon that do not appear to have been hit by planes and the suspicious lack of publicly available photos of wreckage from flight 93.

          This stuff should be pursued to the end, just as one Augusto Pinochet was, because it is about how “civilized” societies function. The WWII Polish Katyn forest executions by Soviet forces were known about by the allies from the start but they only ’fessed up this year! Do those in charge do horrible things to the people? I can sense a few nods from readers here… yes they bloody do, so why not sections of the US spook/corporate brigade.

          At one stage Lprent suggested if interest in this topic was going to continue then maybe a dedicated thread could be set up. This could be worth looking at, so the disinterested or general reader could avoid. But that is easy for me to say as I do not run the blog!

          • freedom 2.1.3.2.1

            Perhaps instead a simple links hub could be facilitated.

            Somewhere that links only are posted into either a Truther/Denier ‘twin tables’ set up that people can freely investigate without the judgement and the vitriol that usually accompanies them.
            Just a thought.

          • insider 2.1.3.2.2

            try entering “flight 93 wreckage” in google. It’s not hard. You’ll be amazed – pictures of plane bits in a deep hole in a field!

      • Te Reo Putake 2.1.4

        Good on ya, TC. However, the best response is probably the rolling eyes or taking this ever useful advice: DNFTT. Still, you managed to get one fool to throw in a bizarro world link to the JFK shooting, so well done for that!
         
        ps. Freedom, I’m not saying the GFC and 9/11 fantasies are definitely linked, but the answer to your question might be found here.

        • travellerev 2.1.4.1

          TC, Fuck man should be Fuck woman.

        • freedom 2.1.4.2

          TRP, i am not going to get into a 911 debate here as face to face communication is the only successful method of helping someone break through the cognitive dissonance that is strangling the world. If you choose to continue ignoring the laws of physics and the mind-buggeringly huge amount of data that obliterates every aspect of the official story there is little that a hundred hours of online bickering will achieve.

          People either wake up or they don’t. I stopped wasting my time fighting it online last year. instead i take every opportunity that arises in the real world to engage, assist and educate anyone who shows the telltale signs of 911 ignorance. I can honestly say i have personally witnessed the ‘awakening’ of over a hundred people in that time and it is getting easier every single time.

          So either people have a growing awareness of the issue or i am just an incredibly persuasive individual who gets rational adults to believe in what you call fantasies.

          have a pleasant day

          • Te Reo Putake 2.1.4.2.1

            Cheers to you, too, freedom. I’m pretty much at the same level of frustration as yourself and most of the time I ignore the madness of the 9/11 truth deniers. But, this is a left wing site and occasionally I rise to the bait that the righties throw. I know I should really take my own advice and stop feeding the trolls, but occasionally its worthwhile anyway, just for conversations such as this.
             
            Ultimately, the best defence against the mis-named truthers is the truth. And the complete lack of any factual comfirmation of an alternative conspiracy to the successful AQ led attack on the WTC speaks volumes.
             
            11 years, 8 days. Still no evidence. Occam’s razor remains as sharp as ever.

            • TheContrarian 2.1.4.2.1.1

              I like to remind truthers that the Bush government was so freaking inept at everything else it tried but somehow has pulled of the most masterful of conspiracies without there ever being a whistle blower? 
               

              • framu

                which is a good point.

                Ok – normally i dont join in this argument, because it has no end – ever.

                however – im still of the opinion that…
                “there are many conspiracies about 9/11 – the US govt’s is one of them”. Theres just too much stuff that doesnt add up in ANY given explanation.

                I know that puts me in a bit of a stasis/fence sitting position – but i can live with that

              • weka

                I don’t have an opinion either way, but I do like to watch the argument sometimes and how illogic pops up on both sides. 

                For instance, the idea that the Bush administration is so inept they couldn’t have pulled this off, plus the argument that no-one has ever spoken out about the conspiracy, remind me of the commentary in the days following 11/9 where people couldn’t believe that Arabs were capable of planning and carrying out such an attack.

                 

                • BernyD

                  Not Arabs, torture trained maniacs, they exist everywhere in case anyone was wondering

                  • Jokerman

                    pointers for a better round of golf (or shall i find another course)?

                    • BernyD

                      My heart is beating slow @ the mo, L8r maybe.
                      I need a golf club that can take it , not an easy ask.

                  • weka

                    Sure Berny, but in the days after 11/9 that’s not what people were talking about. They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.

                    • BernyD

                      true, fear mongering, Nut Jobs do it every day

                    • “lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians”

                      Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull of?

                    • “lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians”

                      Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull off?

                    • weka
                      Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull of?

                       
                      I wouldn’t have thought so. Probably looks easy in  hindsight.
                    • BernyD

                      So you’re a life supporter weka, we are not alone in this world.

                    • Easy in that ‘lowly Arabs’ are just as adept as anyone else

                    • BernyD

                      Just another prohibitive culture trying to survive the modern day human condition.
                      = Every country on the planet.

                    • QoT

                      They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.

                      Yes. That’s how propaganda works.

                    • weka

                      They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
                      “Yes. That’s how propaganda works.”

                      True, but I think it was also the US people just not being that aware of the rest of the world and having a retarded view of Middle Eastern countries.

                      Anyway, my original point, somewhere, such as it was, was that saying that there is no conspiracy because Bush is an idiot is akin to saying Al Qaeda weren’t smart enough to pull off the attacks.  Neither argument makes logical sense. (and yes, I know, logic in this debate, a vain hope).

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      but the logic falls down because it’s a flse equivalence.

                      The controlled demolition theory calls for an extremely complicated plan that hasn’t been put forward. ie, we know that it must have been extremely complicated, and we have had no suggestion of how they might have carried it out. We also know that the alleged planners have a track record of fucking much simpler things up.

                      The terrorist attack theory is highly detailed; there are loads of very good analytical and investigative books, including interviews with the planners, timelines, historical threads, the whole gambit. It’s also a much simpler explanation of events, needing much less planning, and the alleged planners had the experience to do it.

                      So not really buying the equivalence angle.

                  • Jokerman

                    you have captivating technique your self

                    • BernyD

                      How many options do I have?
                      I’ve lived in pain my whole life, captivating?Engineered?UNPaidFor?
                      I should change my handle to BloodyOrphan, maybe that’d help

          • Murray Olsen 2.1.4.2.2

            Maybe they just pretend to agree so they can escape your explanations, freedom.
            I’ve got some doubts about what happened with building 7, but haven’t seen anything yet which comes close to making me think about why the other two towers collapsed. As for the wreckage in the forest – when planes hit vertically or near vertically, they tend to excavate deep holes for themselves. Bf 109s going into English soil sometimes managed to get surprisingly deep.
            As for the Pentagon – the plane flew over the top of a friend’s car just before it hit. His wife was driving and he is an American scientist, so we’re probably trying to suppress something. Yawn.

      • mike e 2.1.5

        Trav yeah trav60,000 tons of material coming down 14ft gaining momentum then gathering in another 70 floors at 2,000 tons each I think your brains have been pulverized by blinkered thinking.
        As for your thermite theory its just a theory thermite could easily be made from the aluminium joinery and the aluminium lining of the gibboard (Dry wall )rubbing together under huge forces 500,000 tons with the momentum building gathering up as the building crashes down the amount of energy and destruction would be in the 100,s of millions of tons equivalent in energy dissipated which could quite easily produce pockets of nano thermite.

        • travellerev 2.1.5.1

          For those of you wanting to learn more about what Mike E is talking about here is an excellent analysis of the collapse of the South tower and why there is no pile driver (Which would be against the laws of physics as the top of the building would find the path of least resistance) from Greame McQueen. called waiting for the Wham!
          And Mike E you might take your blinkers off for about an hour and watch the presentation too and the same goes for McFlock

        • freedom 2.1.5.2

          i have to respond to that mike, and i will do so with a quick question

          Care to explain how a steel I-beam that was identified as coming from above the point of impact was found embedded in a building 400+ m away from where it was originally riveted and welded into place?

          The nonsensical statements that have no basis in science (or even bother with logic) such as that delivered from mike e above, are why i prefer to keep my 911 work on a face to face platform these days. People are far less willing to throw out bs when they have to sit there defending and or explaining their assertions that always end up contradicting or defeating their own statements.

      • mike e 2.1.6

        Its funny these conspiracy theorists seem to believe aliens have already landed and just about everything is a conspiracy just about all the theorists I know are unemployed or in low wage jobs I suppose its a form of escapism.
        But these conspiracy theorists Don’t believe in Vaccinating their children either!
        Another one was that the swine flu vaccination was going to wipe out your immune system.
        My family has all got the swine flu jab and you couldn’t meet a healthier bunch of people.
        I see their kids ( the ones who haven’t immunised their children )and most of them are anaemic
        and physically small Always off school sick with something wrong!

        • travellerev 2.1.6.1

          Funny, most people I know who are donating their intelligence and time in search for 911 truth are university professors,scientists, successful architects, Engineers, fire fighters, lawyers, military personnel and Pilots.

        • muzza 2.1.6.2

          Well Mike, I know some pretty high level business people, intelligent, educated and the like, and guess what, they ask questions too, because they are not stupid, and they don;t believe what is rolled out by TPTB , on all manor of subjects. Only a complete fool believes that corporations, war machines, intelligence industries, big oil, pharma, war on drugs, war on terror etc are there for your well being. Only a FOOL would not want to at least try to see if there is more going on, and a coward would deny it!

          Questioning the party line, and looking for understadings is a responsibility we all should take on, sure that does not mean we will all agree etc, which is fine, but hey the conversations become much more interesting than rugby, beer and other house extensions, or isn’t so and so a bitch, and other irrelevant topics. making up so called conversation in NZ.

          Which person makes the world a potentially worse place for everyone to live, now and in future, including for your kids, nieces, nephews or gandkids etc?

          1: The person who seeks understandings and answers, and questions events which shape this world?

          or

          2: The person who accepts what they are told and never questions the version of what they are told is happening around them?

          Simple question innit!

    • McFlock 2.2

      Comparing a building collapse to clapping your hands is idiotic.
       

      • freedom 2.2.1

        no mcFlock it is simply an instructive and basic visualization tool that forces your consciousness to realize that one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times. It is the niggling reality of the situation that you are fighting and which causes you to react so predictably.

        • Andrew Scobie 2.2.1.1

          “one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times”

          really? link please. i believe it is you that doesn’t understand physics then.

          • McFlock 2.2.1.1.1

            Fuckit, envelope physics time:

            At 3 metres / floor, 110 floors = 330 metres in 13 seconds.
            Average speed = 25 Metres per second. (about 90KpH).

            G = 9.8M/s/s
            After 13 seconds free-fall acceleration that = 147.4M/s (530KpH). It would have travelled 891.8 Metres. At 3M/floor that’s 297 times.
            Average speed 68.6M/s or 247KpH.

            Obviously this doesn’t include wind or concrete resistance, but in order to replicate the theoretical average frequency of floor destruction at freefall speeds, you would need to clap nearly 300 times in 13 seconds.
                    
            Obviously the law of gravity breaks the laws of physics. 

             

            • travellerev 2.2.1.1.1.1

              Hahahah,
              Let’s calculate something and exclude one of the most prominent qualities: that of concrete resistance. 
              The law of gravity obeys the three laws of Physics. If the law of gravity had been obeyed as well as the laws of physics the top which you claim acted as a sledge hammer would have found the path of least resistance.

              You should really watch Greame McQueen’s presentation linked to above.

              • The laws of physics were obeyed.

                • There there C, calm down. Of course the laws of physics were obeyed. Nothing can break the laws of Physics. It is just that the official story can’t have happened unless 19 young Muslims could break them. In order to pulverise the buildings and allow them to come down into their own footprint someone had to have access to all three buildings and place explosives in them, s’all.
                  Only with a huge amount of extra energy could those buildings come down. Office fires and kerosene could not have done that.

                  • Jet fuel =/= kerosene.

                    You realise that the plane itself is made of many elements with different melting points (like aluminium and magnesium) which would melt and burn before steel, adding to the ferocity of the fire, and that steel is significantly weakened in high temperatures

                    Secondly you have never explained when and how the explosives got into a building with 24 hour surveillance and bomb sniffing dogs and without alerting security or anyone else that worked there.

                    You also failed to address the fact that the it wasn’t the top few floors vs the rest of the building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.

              • Andrew Scobie

                I watched it this morning and personally believe it’s complete bollocks.
                Trav, read this next bit very slowly …. the top of the building DID follow the path of least resistance. All laws, including Newton’s, which you claim weren’t, were followed to the letter.

                • Either you are right in which case there was no resistance all the way to the ground where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building indicating the destruction of the building by something other than the Sledgehammer Mike e is talking about or you’re wrong and the top bit rammed the bottom bit to smithereens breaking the laws of physics.
                  You can’t have it both ways. Your turn.
                   

                  • BernyD

                    Well if what they say is true, then I’d be guessing building practices in the name of weight reduction for the primary cause then.

                  • Andrew Scobie

                    no-one has ever said there was “no resistance”, or course there was. But just not as much as you think there was. Your use of the words: “just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building” are clearly incorrect. The top clearly fell through at least 1 floor with little to no resistance.

                    The floor trusses in those 2 buildings were clearly the weak point. With the top 12 floors tipping and leaning to one side, all of the resulting force was being transferred through a smaller footprint, clearly more than was able to be withheld, leading to the structural failure. The floors were made of only 4 inch thick “lightweight” concrete.

                    To quote wikipedia: “While the buildings were designed to support enormous static loads, they provided little resistance to the moving mass of the sections above the floors where the collapses initiated. Structural systems respond very differently to static and dynamic loads, and since the motion of the falling portion began as a free fall through the height of at least one story (roughly three meters or 10 feet), the structure beneath them was unable to stop the collapses once they began. Indeed, a fall of only half a meter (about 20 inches) would have been enough to release the necessary energy to begin an unstoppable collapse

                    and … “Once the collapse initiated, the mass of failing floors overwhelmed the floors below, causing a progressive series of floor failures which accelerated as the sequence progressed. Soon large portions of the perimeter columns and possibly the cores were left without any lateral support, causing them to fall laterally towards the outside pushed by the increasing pile of rubble. The result was the walls peeling off and separating away from the buildings by a large distance (about 500 feet in some cases), hitting other neighboring buildings. Some connections broke as the bolts snapped, leaving many panels randomly scattered. Significant parts of the naked cores (about 60 stories for the North Tower and 40 for the South Tower) remained standing for some seconds before they also collapsed themselves

                    Anyway, you and i have had countless arguments about this topic and neither one of us is going to budge. I don’t even know why i bothered commenting on the topic again. The weight of evidence is on my side, not yours. so, as you most eloquently put it …. your turn.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      I’d love to see a truther account one tenth as detailed as the various and numerous accounts that are to be found of the mainstream theory.

                      For example, I’d like to know how much ‘nano thermite’ would have been needed and where it was placed. Then we’d need a discussion that takes account of the nature of thermite, that it burns rather than explodes, so it usually requires aditional explosives to shift the cut steel.

                      Factor that into the images we have of the collapse and explain how it all happened, and whether it makes sens to do it that way.

                      The plan would have had to take account of the fact that several floors were severely damaged by the plane crashes and fires. How was this built into the pla? How did the wiring plans for the thermite and explosives build redundancy in to deal with this?

                      Is the controlled demolition theory explaining what we see, or is the controlled demolition account trying to force itself on to what is being observed?

                      But we never get offered any detail. After a decade, there is still no explanation of their account.

                    • I want to know “How did the thermite get in there without anyone noticing”

                    • Andrew Scobie

                      agree! i’m especially interested in how all the tons and tons of explosives and thermite were wired into the building with kilometers of demolition cord, under the noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.

                      All the while being placed in exactly the correct place for a plain to hit the buildings and not damage said explosives rig. Then requiring someone to press the button to initiate the collapse while knowing 300 odd innocent firefighters were still inside the building with no change of escape.

                      to quote the Tui adds, yea right.

                    • “e noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.”

                      and 24 hour surveillance, security guards…plus fucking bomb sniffing dogs  to boot.  

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      But don’t push the button right away, let it burn for while, having full confidence that when you push the button it will go. :roll:

                    • Kotahi Tāne Huna

                      The thermite? It was all added by Buzz Aldrin at the time of construction – just don’t say it to his face…

                  • You are doing it again:

                    “where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building ”

                    No,  it wasn’t the top few floors vs  a huge solid and undamaged building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.

                    Why do you never address this?

                  • mike e

                    Benny D is right but trav you are just repeating con job.
                    You don’t understand laws of physics tell me why it takes 1.2km to stop a1200tonne train going along tracks !
                    then tell me how you would stop 60,000 tonnes which is gaining momentum also fighting the effects of gravity stops .
                    The train isn’t gaining momentum and has only a mild gravitational drag!
                    Those buildings were built quickly cheaply using formally illegal methods until they conned NY City to go back to old methods using clip in prefabricated floor trusses !
                    Now you will find that the flooring systems in use today has to be bolted in with very expensive non sheer temp proof bolts!
                    They’ve learned from the mistakes!

              • McFlock

                I was pointing out that the speed of the towers was within the bounds highest possible speed with no resistance, i.e. freefall speed, and that therefore your “hands clapping” argument is batshit-stupid idiocy.
                     
                We might have some agreement, though – the towers fell at slower than freefall speed due to concrete being in the way. 

              • Murray Olsen

                What exactly are the three laws of physics?

      • Te Reo Putake 2.2.2

        Just for the record, this bloke can clap 12-13 times a second. So, clearly, it is possible to clap 110 times in 13 seconds, which probably negates whatever vague point Trav was trying to make. But no matter, it just makes the comparison entirely consistent with the rest of the truther claims, which are equally bogus.

      • I threw a burning piece of metal in the shape of a plane at a piece of concrete once and NOTHING HAPPENED!

        9/11 WAS A LIE!

         

    • BernyD 2.3

      The loss must be phenomonal, conspiracy theories rob u of the ground you stand on, they do not answer loss.

      • mike e 2.3.1

        What isn’t a conspiracy theory is that it has been found that GW Bush has been found to have lied to the American public in saying he wasn’t warned of an impending attack he was warned but didn’t take it seriously as he thought that no one would dare attack the US!

      • BernyD 2.3.2

        Those cats were talking about it in 99, problem was no one could fathom it.
        and I’m just a cat off the street.
        They created a lot of fear with that “engineered” approach.
        You can see it in Afghanistan and other places right now

      • travellerev 2.3.3

        Bernie,

        The first speaker is a lady by the name of Laurie van Auken. She was one of the people who fought for an investigation into what happened. She lost her husband on 9/11. As long as people like her want to fight for a new and independent investigation I’m with her

        • BernyD 2.3.3.1

          Fair enuf, in a civilised world that’s a good thing, power too them, but I think in this case the inuendo I speek of is all there is behind it, truely sorry for their loss, heartbreaking.
          It was street level info from NZ.

    • millsy 2.4

      Regardless of whether you thought the WTC was deliberately demolished or not, you have to admit, that it is rather strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.

      Given that black boxes have been recovered in dense jungles, shark infested oceans and icy rivers, it would be pretty straightforward for them to be recovered in the rubble of a destroyed building or in the Pennsylvania countryside.

      • kiwi_prometheus 2.4.1

        “strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.”

        They weren’t all destroyed.

        http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_Black_Boxes ->

        “The Flight 93 flight data recorders were recovered. The Flight 77 black boxes were also removed from the Pentagon, but one of them (the cockpit voice recorder) was too badly damaged to be used. The only boxes not to be recovered were from the World Trade Centre impacts ”

        The World Trade Centre ones were destroyed – is that surprising given the extreme forces involved there?

        Black boxes aren’t indestructible. They aren’t always recovered.

        And these crashes were not normal – crazies at the steering wheel with the accelerator to the floor.

        It’s like the old moon landing conspiracy nonsense:

        “There are no stars in the background!” – because the sun light fades them out, the sky is black because there is no atmosphere on the moon otherwise it is just like we don’t see stars in the blue daytime sky.

        And seriously, would someone go to all that trouble to fake a mooning landing and forget to paint the stars on the background? :roll:

        The moon is a completely alien environment, what is experienced on Earth and taken for granted is turned upside down.

        Stupid conspiracy nonsense.

      • Tiger Mountain 2.4.2

        That type of issue is why I remain a 9/11 skeptic Millsy, not a ‘Truther’, follow the evidence.
        No plane appears to have hit the Pentagon or building seven so what did happen?

        A govt., or sections of it, would not harm it’s own people? C’mon Pol Pot, Indonesia, Chile, Syria.

        • Te Reo Putake 2.4.2.1

          Building 7 was hit by a large chunk of one of the falling towers, TM. And while you’ll get no argument from me on America’s historical propensity to use its power extra-judicially, to do so against its own citizens on a mass scale has no modern precedent.
           
          The wikipedia site has pretty common sense descriptions of the main theories, including the video of the Pentagon crash. The guts of it is, for me, that there is no credible alternative to the established facts. And the complete absence of human corroboration of the inside job is the clincher. No whistleblower, no stray email, no oh so human cock up.
           
          It is what it is. A relatively simple plot, using a classic guerilla technique, modernised; multiple hits to maximise the chance of success. They succeeded because a highjacking with the intention of destroying the aircraft and all aboard was inconceivable. Security, till then, had been premised on the idea that political hijackers wanted publicity and a safe haven; that they intended to survive. 
           
          The USA was mugged, pure and simple.

          edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

          • insider 2.4.2.1.1

            There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.

            • muzza 2.4.2.1.1.1

              There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.,

              That comment I just had to laugh at, especially when you used the words ignorant, google search, bits of engine, wheels, parts , logos etc.

              Its like Voice saying that Wiki is a reliable source., and no prescedent etc…

              Ignorant indeed!

              • Te Reo Putake

                Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.
                 
                ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.
                 
                It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!

                • muzza

                  Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.

                  Its all BS on every angle, it so obvious, no need to spend time dwelling on it. No need to waste time on what stinks from top to bottom!

                  ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.

                  Now you’re catching on, slow, but better you got there….I don’t even mind that its you who finally caught on to my position on such matters around deliberate confusion on every angle. Next you just have to develop the inate ability to be able to tell the shite in the lies….You dont have it though, your words tell me that for sure. Worse you have no interest in even trying, which is why you will remain confused on so many issues!

                  It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!

                  Idiocy beyond belief!

                  • insider

                    Your postion of deliberate confusion on almost every angle is entirely obvious to most observers. Although I’m prepared to drop the deliberate.

              • insider

                I’m assuming it was the laugh of the insane

              • insider

                Funny how she never once mentions the airliner debris on the lawn.

                You’d think amongst all the other things she’s assessed she’d have a damn good theory about how the parts were stored inside the building to be found after the event or conveniently dropped in full view in the moments before people arrived on the scene to lend help.

                Odd this is never addressed given that she has worked out everything else. Did she forget?

                • It seems that the only crime in the universe where the people pointing out that there is a problem with the story of the people who have most to gain by the crime, namely the military industrial complex who had earned trillions with the wars started in the aftermath, have to prove their allegations before a police investigation is started is the crime of 911.
                  This compares to a case were bystanders, who after a bloody body has been found, have to prove the guy who inherited all the dosh is guilty, after they point out the story he is telling is scientifically impossible, before a proper police investigation is started.

                  If you find a bloody body and call the police they come and investigate. They interrogate, question and use science to prove or disprove who has done the deed.
                  It is not our job to find out every detail and every facet of the story. We have done our job in that we have pointed out that scientifically the official story is a load of BS.
                  Even the members of the 9/11 commission declared they were set up to fail and are denouncing their own results.

                  We want a new and independent investigation into what happened on that day and we are not alone in this.
                  End of story!

                  • insider

                    I want a new and independent inquiry into why she completely ignores the most telling pieces of evidence, something you just spent a lot of words dancing around but never actually addressed either. Alternatives are fine, but they lack credibility when they just pretend counters don’t exist.

          • travellerev 2.4.2.1.2

            Even NIST denies the damage was cause for the collapse. In fact after seven years they said that they could not explain the collapse of building 7. Could have something to do with the fact that they refused to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition perhaps?

        • mike e 2.4.2.2

          TM building seven how many tonnes of debris fell on building 7
          Do they have cameras pointing at the pentagon all the time maybe now but not then the black box was recovered innocent passengers were killed!
          The right wing will be laughing their heads of off over these conspiracy theorists !

          • travellerev 2.4.2.2.1

            At the time of the attack on the Pentagon some 83 camera’s were pointed at the Pentagon at all times. Every footage of those cameras has been confiscated. We know this because the FBI The FBI acknowledges Having 83 video’s in their possession which they refuse to release. Only 6 frames have been released to date which do not show clear footage.

            • insider 2.4.2.2.1.1

              Here’s one of the classic situations where something mundane gets built upon and reimagined until the ‘facts’ shift to give the veneer of something suspicious.

              “83 camera’s ..pointed at the Pentagon at all times” were nothing of the sort. There were 83 films taken by or given as evidence to the FBI. Most showed no images of the crash site (some were of the WTC events, some were from Florida and one from Wisconsin!) or were by people who attended the site after the event. Some were tourist videos, so pretty bored tourists if they have their cameras pointed at the Pentagon ‘all the time’

              Why were they not released? Because the FOIA request only asked for videos showing the impact. The one that showed it was released after the completion of the Massoui trial.

              Most, if not all, of the others have also been released since. http://penttbom.com/

              So Eve presents a whole lot of not even half truths she has muddled together into a half baked blob of nothing, then adds some fairy dust and hey presto it’s a scandal.

  3. vto 3

    .
    Christchurch, I have realised, is experiencing one of those good old cliches / sayings that your granny always used to say. One of them ones which ring true and you get to see in action from time to time…

    And that is “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”

    This government, with no plan to do anything anywhere in the economy or elsewhere, sees in Christchurch an opportunity to show it does stuff. You know, “right, lets get on with it. No point is sitting around, just get stuck in”. But they are bozos blowing it with their bluster and big man bullshit.

    Two example. Firstly, the blueprint is such a massive undertaking that it is almost certainly going to struggle. Getting into the detail and action it becomes apparent that there are major issues not thought through sufficiently. The sorts of issues that cause things to stall, then re-think, then try again and by that time everyone has realised that the government actually had no idea in the first place.

    Secondly, the school closures. The people and protests on te news are 100% right. The schools have been a beacon of normality for people, especially children. So why the rush? Why not start the conversation now and tell the communities that some time in the next couple of years some schools are going to have to close? Then the communities would have time to adjust, discuss, etc. That would seem to be the obvious and caring way. But no…

    … fools rush in where angels fear to tread

  4. captain hook 4

    sounds good to me vto.
    and by that time a decent Labour government that understands the concept of fair play for all will be back in power and the job can be done properly instead of the Jerry built way they are doing things now.

  5. lprent 5

    Just been reviewing the slow queries log after seeing nasty slowdowns over the last few days. Added a few indexes into comments that hopefully will improve things. Apologies to anyone caught while the scripts were running.

    Oh well off to the paid employment and what looks like a bug deep deep inside of webkit.

    • BernyD 5.1

      Ffox 15.0.1 still acting up wickedly, cleared the cache, sits there going round in circles after reading one article.

      • Carol 5.1.1

        I’m using FF 15.01 and am not, nor have I recently been having, that problem.

        • BernyD 5.1.1.1

          I’ll try a re install then, thanks

        • BernyD 5.1.1.2

          Complete re install fixed it, thanks again

          • lprent 5.1.1.2.1

            Great. I have seen that a few times myself. FF has this script engine that runs a lot of the internals and sometimes it seems to get itself quite screwed up. I suspect plugins myself.

            I’m migrated pretty much to Chrome for normal use these days because it is on all my platforms :- linux, ios, android, virtual microsoft machines, microsoft server 2003 R2 (legacy systems), osx (to use xcode for ios grrr…), and even in the once a month boot of a dual partition vista (for bloody itunes grrr). It also seems to be pretty damn robust and quite fast for every platform I’ve used it on. Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release

            • BernyD 5.1.1.2.1.1

              Yeah suspect it’s flash player myself, re installed it to no avail tho.
              (Had a strange error / crash after visiting the standard this time)
              Haven’t used chrome much, it’s installed but not used.

              • Jokerman

                Transformational Leadership?
                ( google on another tab but slows this old pc)

                • BernyD

                  Revenge of the Fallen?
                  Faster memory

                  • Jokerman

                    The Standard ílluminati taught me how to be Helpful.
                    He teaches me how to care

                  • BernyD

                    Sounds like your walking on ice bud

                    • Jokerman

                      ‘skating away, skating away….on the Thin Ice of a New Day”

                      Well-grounded actually. (just have to manage the emotional cycles of the day)
                      We all have our crosses to bear, i imagine
                      i also imagine the Diversity of people who may read or reference The Standard

                      came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal

                    • BernyD

                      It’s a weak response to the context of the views expressed, not even worth reading, so i didn’t.
                      Context is everything on the Net.

                    • BernyD

                      It’s just a Blog M8!

                    • lprent

                      came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal

                      He is a somewhat selective and always has been. For some strange reason he never seems to get the lesson that it makes very little difference if authors here are using their real names (like Ben Clark), or a psuedonym like myself when I’ve been using the same one for 30 years – it was my first login name, or where it is a psuedonym.

                      But you can’t get a sense of a person until you actually know them in person. Knowing someone on the net is an exercise in knowing one of their personas, the same as it is knowing them where they work, or whatever. It is a spurious argument that knowing who they are offers any particular value to their opinion unless they are an expert in their field like Mike is (which of course neither Whale or the other great whiners about real names – journos – never are).

                      However opinion is opinion and it makes bugger all difference who writes it – it is what it says that is important. You can always tell someone who writes something useful even if you disagree with it. It forces you to think

                      I suspect that what really gets him is the latter point. If you have nothing meaningful to say, then poor opinion like his invariably is gets treated as being crap regardless if it is a psuedo or “real name”. So he clings to the “outing” he was so irritated about 5 years ago just as he clings to his pseudonymous persona….

                    • BernyD

                      Yeah, I scanned it when looking for a blog to read, but landed on the Standard.
                      It was the articles originally.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.1.2

              Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release

              Could be at that. Just checked memory use and it’s using close to 300MB and I thought it was bad when it was using ~100MB. The reason why I didn’t keep using Chrome, even though I liked it, was because Google won’t allow it to block ads from Google (Using AdBlock) but is quite happy for it to block everyone else’s.

              • lprent

                *grin* Now that is a funny…

                I don’t block ads* apart from malware so that isn’t an issue.

                * Actually there are a few ad site that I block by IP – but that is because their ads irriate the hell out of me. I see that we picked one of those up this morning – the jiggling dialog style. I’ll have to tell scoop that the company making it is not to use our site again.

    • lprent 5.2

      Evidently I still haven’t gotten whatever it is. It just happened again.

      Damn. I’ll turn on the full query logging so I can find out what it is doing when I next see the database going ape.

      • Carol 5.2.1

        Something happened when I just posted my comment to Return to Planet Key – I got an error message . Eventually I refreshed and the comment was posted, but I couldn’t edit (minor capitalisation typo).

      • BernyD 5.2.2

        Probably traffic surges, nothing to worry about, let it burp and continue

  6. KJT 6

    Anyone notice the slip of the tongue currently happening in statements from National MP’s.

    Apparently they are now our governors, not our representatives.

    Maybe an admission of the real situation?

    • Draco T Bastard 6.1

      Probably more the way they actually think of themselves. They certainly act as if they’re our overlords rather than our representatives.

      • Anne 6.1.1

        That’s because they think they are our overlords. They’re to damm dumb to know they’re not…

  7. gobsmacked 7

    In Parliament, Grant Robertson has just asked the “Dotcom” questions to the Police Minister that were suggested on this very blog, on Tuesday and Wednesday.

    But she wasn’t there (Brownlee stood in) and nor was Key. They were there on Tuesday and Wednesday. Too late now.

    That’s Labour’s incompetence in a nutshell. If there’s nobody there who can think of this stuff for themselves, why don’t they just have somebody standing by at lunchtime, and we’ll tell them the questions to ask, before 2 pm. No charge for the first ones used – after that, 10% of the MPs’ salary. It’s not like they’re earning it.

  8. Chris 8

    Hear ye!Hear ye! Apparently Commanderkey is announcing,possibly to the world, of his intention to send four SAS personnell to Afghanistan to obtain information on who is responsible for the recent attacks on NZ soldiers. What does SAS stand for? Will not someone see them coming now? Apparently, they will do nothing themselves,but share their info with somebody else. Who?Possibly an infiltrator in the Afghanistan Force. But, that’s alright,apparently this is not a revenge mission.Maybe he just wants an apology and then everything will be ok buddy.
    Hope said personnell are good at their jobs and can stay safe, or stupidkey could have some blood on his hands.
    ps key is an idiot!

    • Murray Olsen 8.1

      Key could get Whalespew and three other gungho volunteers from that vile blog to go and give the “ragheads” what they deserve. I’d contribute a month’s salary on successful completion of the mission.

  9. Draco T Bastard 9

    Oh dear, poor NACt are having a hard time justifying this private prisons business.

    s construction of a new private prison began in south Auckland today, ONE News can reveal the scale of the Government’s controversial deal.

    The prison, located in the suburb of Wiri, had a sod-turning ceremony today but ONE News understands there are hundreds of prison beds lying empty in jails across New Zealand.

    And Serco, the overseas company which will manage the new 960-bed facility, has confirmed it will be paid for 100% occupancy of the prison even if beds remain empty.

    Oops, it seems that the government hiring the private sector just results in the private sector getting government guaranteed profits while not actually saving us money.

    • Carol 9.1

      And it seems the London Stock exchange has been told more about the contract than the NZ public:

      http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/tolley-needs-come-clean-regarding-wiri-prison/5/135340

      “Anne Tolley must, by law, table the contract between Corrections and the Serco-led consortium that will build and operate Wiri. I challenge her to do so before the House rises next Thursday, rather than drop its details during a parliamentary recess, which I am sure is her plan”, Labour’s Justice spokesperson Charles Chauvel, said.

      “Serco told the London Stock Exchange earlier this month that it expected revenues of £15 million (NZ$29 million) per annum from the operation of the prison, and £2 million from the period before the prison even opens. The LSE has more information than the New Zealand public about what the taxpayer will pay under the arrangement.

  10. weka 10

    Conspiracy theories…. do we have some good examples of ones that have been proven true after being written off?

    (we don’t need the WTC as an example thanks, see up thread). 

    • Bob 10.1

      Yip, Hillsborough Disaster, 23 year cover-up just been exposed in the UK http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964 after 3 seperate enquiries finding the fans at fault, the truth has finally been exposed.

    • McFlock 10.2

      Loads.
               
      Cover ups:
      Erebus
      Bloody Sunday Massacre
      Dreyfus Affair

      Other:
      Gunpowder Plot 
      Iran-Contra
      Anything ever done by an intelligence service.
      All the GWBush wars – e.g. yellowcake, “smoking gun”, yadda yadda
      Gulf of Tonkin.

       
       

       
       

    • Murray Olsen 10.3

      I think that, to be labelled a conspiracy, it has to be more than just a coverup after the event. I’d label Hillsborough, Erebus, and Bloody Sunday as coverups, for example.
      The Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Burning of the Reichstag are more deserving of being called conspiracies, as they were both planned in advance. The destruction of the USS Maine in Havana was possibly a false flag operation, which maybe qualifies.
      I think the biggest conspiracy theory of all is the spreading of theories about Bilderberg, the Illuminati, Zionist one world government etc. All these have the effect of causing despair in people because if something is done behind the scenes by almost omnipotent forces, what can be done about it? On the other hand, anyone who analyses capitalism knows broadly what our ruling class will do and what needs to be done to stop it. Of course, this requires a lot more than watching youtube. You have to get off your ass and mobilise for a start. It’s not easy.

      • McFlock 10.3.1

        Yeah, there is an instinctive distinction between a plain “coverup” and a full conspiracy. But then the coverup can be an extensive and systemic conspiracy, e.g. Dreyfus.
              
        The trouble is that a lot of the stuff that happens in the world isn’t anyone’s master plan, most of the time it’s an improvised response to a changing situation which folk then quietly work around. ISTR that the Nazis mounted a real “false flag” operation in 1939, staging an attack on their own border posts by pretend-Polish soldiers. 
           
        Watergate definitely counted as a conspiracy, but then it was another programme that evolved into illegal activities beyond par.
           
        As an aside, the most reasonable explanation I read for the USS Maine was that it was a coal bunker fire that had heat conducted through the metal structure to an ammunition bunker. But then it was certainly perverted and transformed into a casus belli. 

  11. BernyD 11

    God bless the NZ SAS and their Friends in combat and those they are protecting.
    It’s possible, they are trying.
    In the name of peacefull coexistence and life I bless them.

    • kiwi_prometheus 11.1

      Are you suppose to be a priest or something?

      • BernyD 11.1.1

        Agnostic, and no.

        • kiwi_prometheus 11.1.1.1

          Your “blessing” is worth about sweet FA then.

          • McFlock 11.1.1.1.1

            lol
            Only if you’re an atheist. 

            • kiwi_prometheus 11.1.1.1.1.1

              I was just having a go at him because of his unctuous drivel.

              Woody Allen put the dilemma well:

              You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.

              If you do believe in a god you got a BIG problem proving it – you just got to have “faith”.

              • BernyD

                God is thought, life tells us to grow and think
                evolved over billions of years.

                • kiwi_prometheus

                  That’s an old idea.

                  It was super ceded by Hegel’s Phenomenology of Spirit. The world and human civilization were the material expression of Spirit/Idea.

                  Then Marx came along and took the next logical step removing the Spirit/Idea part for an efficiency gain. All that there is, is material, and man is God.

              • McFlock

                Two points:
                If the universe is a cold meaningless place, then the warmth and meaning of people is much more important.
                     
                And asserting that anyone’s blessing is worth sweet FA is a much stronger religious assertion than a quick blessing by someone who’s not entirely sure it will have an effect.

                • kiwi_prometheus

                  “the warmth and meaning of people”

                  The problem is they stop existing.

                  • McFlock

                    So we find the warmth where we can, and we provide warmth for others.

                    • kiwi_prometheus

                      Then you drop dead.

                      See? Absurd.

                    • McFlock

                      If a light is turned off, does that mean it never shone?
                      The act of extinguishing it requires that it have been bright in the first place. 
                         
                      Shit changes. The word turns. If we lived forever Hitler would still be farting and ranting.

              • Pascal's bookie

                You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.

                Er, nope. That doesn’t follow at all.

                That only makes sense if a god is the only thing that could prevent a universe being ‘indifferent, cold, and meaningless'; and I can’t think of any reason why that might be, or any reason why an atheist would believe it. It’s pants pretty much.

                • kiwi_prometheus

                  So where is the meaning? Seems like countless philosophers, poets, artists have struggled with it.

                  So what makes you think you’ve bagged it?

                  Please share.

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    A pretty silly demand to make k-p.

                    You are the one who has suggested that god is a necessary condition for ‘meaning’ (and so on), in the universe. I said that has not been shown to be the case. You haven’t established that.

                    How does it follow from from what I said, that I should have ‘bagged’ whatever it is you think that theologians have over philosphers?

                    Short answer, it doesn’t. Typical slippery question begging from the theologician camp.

                    Explain to me why god is necessary for the things you claim.

                    You’ll need to define those things first, (the opposites of ‘indifferent, cold, meaningless’) and as you do so, be careful that that what you are describing are not subjective experiences of the universe by sentient beings. Because if that’s the case, then what’s needed for those things to exist is sentient beings, not necessarily gods.

                    • kiwi_prometheus

                      I dont believe in the existence of a God.

                      So my dilemma is finding meaning.

                      Whereas God believers are stuck with “faith” and questions like “If God is so freaking loving and all powerful why are there little children who have had their feet and hands blown off by mines disguised as children’s toys?”

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Meaning is a subjective thing k-p. In the western way of looking at it at least.

                      Sticking with that angle, meaning is what people find. It’s how they perceive, explain, experience.

                      You are not going to find it on the outside, it must be active, and provided by yourself. And it won’t be universal. One person’s experience of the universe will, of necessity, be different to everyone else’s, so it’s cray cray to expect their meanings to be the same, and that’s ok.

                      Or to take a more eastern angle, we are ourselves just ‘expressions of the universe’.

                      I’m the universe being me, just as my chair is the universe being a chair.
                      Why? To what end?
                      Ends in themselves, strip away the ego, and just let the universe be the things it is. Relish that and savour it. Be the universe observing itself.

                      Both those angles are saying the same thing by the way.

              • Draco T Bastard

                You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.

                Ah, no. It doesn’t require a god to make the universe a place of wonder and adventure.

  12. RedBaron 12

    And talking about state capture of a process:
    http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/govt-confirms-earthquake-commission-review.

    Only selected stakeholders are getting a say in this while the general public will get a couple of weeks to comment at the end. The private insurers must be drooling in anticipation. Lean on your MP to open up the submissions?

  13. kiwi_prometheus 13

    “Gay marriage” has taken a hammering over in Aussie. Voted down big time twice!

    Hopefully it falls on its face here too.

    • XTASY 13.1

      On this one you have a point. NZ Labour and Greens focussed largely on it, but they neglecte other “issues”. Something to think aboout perhaps.

      • kiwi_prometheus 13.1.1

        The right wingers took a big hit though. One of their top players had to quit after saying if gay marriage is permissible why not bestiality?

        I think he has got a good point – its the Slippery Slope argument. But he went down in a hail of bullets from the media and opponents, his argument dismissed as “ridiculous” or “homophobic” whatever the fuck that is suppose to mean. :roll:

        • McFlock 13.1.1.1

          How does the concept “any two consenting adults can marry” slide into “people will marry their pets”? 
                 
          Marriage is between consenting parties. Animals (and for that matter children) cannot consent to anything. 

          • kiwi_prometheus 13.1.1.1.1

            “Marriage is between consenting parties.”

            A father and his son?

            “How does the concept “any two consenting adults can marry” slide into “people will marry their pets”? ”

            It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.1

              You mean where both are old enough to consent?
                     
              Wouldn’t that conflict with the familial relationship, though? I’ll give you that, then – make it “consenting parties who aren’t closely related”.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                See there you go – now YOU are deny rights to people.

                So obviously you dont think individual rights are absolute.

                And neither do I.

                Basically you’re pushing rational contract theory – the same one that is the foundation for neo classical economics actually – rational individual free agents entering contracts with each other. And look where that has got us, haha.

                So back to marriage. Consent is NECESSARY, but it is not SUFFICIENT. Is love necessary let alone sufficient? No, after all it can be faked.

                But it is necessary but not sufficient that the two agents be of the opposite sex, there are physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement that is and must be acknowledged in the idea of marriage.

                • McFlock

                  No, you presented a counter example and I said okay, that would involve a conflict of interests, I’ll give you that one. But there is no conflict of interests between two unrelated men marrying, any mor that between an unrelated man and woman.
                         
                  Any union between two people involves  “physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement”. Why does gender need to be singled out?

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    “Why does gender need to be singled out?”

                    If your relationship does not have those unique elements of one based on consent, you don’t qualify for marriage.

                    If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.

                    Pretending that “gender doesnt matter” will destroy the meaning of marriage.

                    Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that, but of course once they got it, they then wanted more.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Wow! Have you ever considered ringing a talkback station?
                       
                      “Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be  recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.”
                       
                      Why must it?

                    • McFlock

                      If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.

                      No. 
                      Marriage is a legal recognition of a relationship between people that, in many instances, is more intimate than most familial bonds. 
                           
                      Nothing about ‘nads in it at all.

                    • gobsmacked

                      Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that

                      Did you support that legislation, or oppose it?

                    • felix

                      lolz.

                      Poor little k_p still hasn’t figured out where babies come from.

            • XTASY 13.1.1.1.1.2

              his is idiot stuff. let us focus on what is important!

            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.3

              It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.

              Love is a mutual emotion. As far as I can see, nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”. That would be against the entire concept of marriage. Both parties at the ceremony say “I do”, not one party saying “I’ll take that one”. But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.
                     
               

              • kiwi_prometheus

                “Love is a mutual emotion.”

                No way! Come on, its the core of a million love stories, you know the quote “When the object of ones affection…”

                “But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.”

                Very much, see above ^.

                “nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”.”

                See above ^.

                • McFlock

                  Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.
                     
                  If you want soppy love quotes, love is when you’re prepared to share the deepest, darkest, worst thing about yourself to another person, and it doesn’t matter to them.

                  • kiwi_prometheus

                    “Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.”

                    Poets and novelists have been writing about love for thousands of years.

                    You really think you know what its all about? Then you should write the book, and make your fortune.

                    • McFlock

                      Some people find Twilight romantic.  Others see an abusive and emotionally controlling relationship. Meh.

              • Draco T Bastard

                That would be against the entire concept of marriage.

                Depends upon which culture you’re looking at. Several cultures had/have arranged marriages where people are married against their will.

            • Pascal's bookie 13.1.1.1.1.4

              It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.

              I’ve never seen that expressed as anything other than ‘let us marry each other’, or ‘let me marry someone I am in love with’.

              But sure, if you have an example of anyone suggesting non-consensual gay marriage, I’ll be against that. But I bet you can’t.

              • kiwi_prometheus

                What do you mean? It was on a protester’s sign in a pic on a thread here.

                • fatty

                  Come on KP – you can’t be serious.
                  If that sign was at a gay marriage protest, then ‘who I love’ is referring to their partner…not their Grandma.
                  If a pub has a sign outside saying ‘smoking section’…that does not mean you can pull out a glass pipe and start smoking crack – it is referring to cigarettes/tobacco.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  Gosh. A sign at a protest you say. Certainly put me in my place.

    • millsy 13.2

      Do you want homosexuality recriminalised?

    • Murray Olsen 13.3

      Kiwi_prometheus
      If you wish to have sex with animals, or even confine this to one animal, go for it. I really don’t care either way. I just hope it’s a carnivore with large teeth.
      The only essential difference I see among people is that some want a better world for themselves and others want a better world for society as a whole. This has nothing to do with gender.

  14. Draco T Bastard 14

    Crisis or Breakdown?

    Why has it failed? Because capitalism is a mode of production for profit; and profitability is in secular and terminal decline, in Graeber’s view. Graeber says there are three claims that capitalism makes to justify it as a progressive mode of social organisation: it fosters scientific and technological growth; second, it increases overall prosperity; and third, it creates a more secure and democratic world. But it increasingly fails to deliver on all three: “we can feel especially confident that none of this will happen within the framework of contemporary capitalism or any form of capitalism”.

    Emphasis mine:

    The drive for profit and accumulation must result in advancement in technology being curtailed as capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares. To prop up profit essential services are being cut.

    • kiwi_prometheus 14.1

      Conflating capitalism and democracy is what right wingers do.

      Capitalism and democracy chaff. But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!

      “capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares”

      Its not about Capitalism doing this. It’s democracy which can – re ozone depletion and solution.

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1

        But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!

        Really? Did you not notice the increasing poverty over the last 30 years? The quarter of a million children in hardship? The majority of the people aren’t getting a good deal. In fact, they’re being shafted so as to prop up the 1% profits.

        Its not about Capitalism doing this.

        No, it’s about capitalism preventing it. That’s why NACT keep saying that we need to balance between the economy and the environment means.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.2

      As an addendum to that one have this one:
      Of Flying Cars

      Americans do not like to think of themselves as a nation of bureaucrats—quite the opposite—but the moment we stop imagining bureaucracy as a phenomenon limited to government offices, it becomes obvious that this is precisely what we have become.

      And that most definitely applies to NZ as well. Contrary to what most people seem to believe about the free-market the bureaucrats have taken over.

  15. kiwi_prometheus 15

    There’s no reply link on the gay marriage strand!

    “Did you support that legislation, or oppose it?”

    I supported it.

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    Labour | 28-10
  • Does Judith Collins have a get out of jail card?
    Former justice minister Judith Collins appears to have been gifted a get out of jail free card based on the Prime Minister’s answers in Parliament today, Labour’s Acting Deputy Leader Annette King says. “Judith Collins claimed in an Official Information...
    Labour | 28-10
  • Solid Energy decision delay sensible
    Today’s announcement by the Board of Solid Energy that it will delay making a final decision on re-entering the Pike River mine is a sensible move, Labour’s MP for  West Coast-Tasman Damien O’Connor says. “It has been clear for some...
    Labour | 28-10
  • New York Green Bank off to a $1B start
    New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced late last week the New York Green Bank’s first NZD$1 billion tranche of green energy investments. The projects, which are difficult for the private sector to finance, are now possible by New York Green...
    Greens | 28-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Blockade the Budget
    The ‘Independent’ Police Conduct Authority’s report into the policing of student protests in 2012 is a whitewash The report released by the Independent Police Conduct Authority into the policing of student protests in 2012 is a whitewash riddled with inaccuracies....
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • When National claim new anti worker laws provide ‘flexibility’ they mea...
    And so it comes to pass. The first law National ram through as part of their victory march are new anti worker laws they pretend will generate ‘flexibility’. The new law denigrate the unions ability to protect workers and provide...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • City Transport: A Taxing Matter
    This week the prospect of paying tolls on Auckland motorways became a hot topic. (See Mathew Dearnaley:Motorway tolling could hit some hard, NZ Herald, 30 Oct 2014.) As we might expect, the kneejerk response has been quite negative. But, as with...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Open Letter to Amy Adams: Please Reopen The Review Into Sexual Violence Cou...
    Ms Amy Adams, Justice and Courts Minister, Right now in this country it seems that although rape is illegal, it is not being prevented by the agents who uphold the law. It almost feels like rape is only illegal on paper,...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: Does ‘No-Surprises’ Also Apply To TVNZ News?
    When you stand back and look at NZ media outlets, most of them have at least one or two people who attempt to hold the government to account: John Campbell on TV3, Guyon Espiner and others at Radio NZ, David...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Things That Make You Go Hmmmmmmm
    Every so often in politics, a public figure comes out with something so absurd and so outlandish … that it really does just make you go “Hmmmmmmmmmm”. We’re accustomed to this from certain quarters – by mid point through the...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Poverty & inequality don’t need protest marches – they need a riot:...
    The global level of inequality continues to skyrocket… Number of billionaires doubled since financial crisis The number of billionaires has doubled since the start of the financial crisis, according to a major new report from anti-poverty campaigners. According to Oxfam,...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • If Key knows who Rawshark is…
    I’m sorry, what? John Key ‘given Rawshark’s name’The Prime Minister believes he knows who hacked Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater’s computer and produced the source material for Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics, according to a new edition of a recently published...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Child Poverty stats in NZ
    Child Poverty stats in NZ...
    The Daily Blog | 30-10
  • Crimes Act + Police Investigation = WTF
    Just to frame the farce that is the Roastbuster’s investigation and conclusion – here are the parts of the Crime Act http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1961/0043/latest/whole.html#DLM329057  the Roastbusters are proven to have violated – that the police (and some suspects!) themselves acknowledge occurred: Crimes...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Publishing Journalists’ Home Addresses Is A Tactic Of The Right, Not The ...
    I think I’m starting to get rather annoyed with the conduct of some pro-MANA people over this ongoing Parliamentary Services crew complement issue. Yes, we get that there are legitimate issues to be raised with how some political reporters in...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Aucklanders caught between a tarseal-addicted government and a weak mayor
    Len Brown’s proposal for motorway tolls to reduce congestion and provide funding for better public transport is a weak response to a critical issue. The $12 billion dollar shortfall on transport funding he talks about is mainly for projected new...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • A Very Weird Story: Deconstructing Darren Aronofsky’s Noah.
    NOAH is a curious movie. Conceived as a biblical epic, it’s target audience was originally the millions of Americans who regard the Bible as God’s inerrant word. With the sin-filled works of Hollywood forbidden to these true-believers, Christian movie-makers have developed...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • You Can Get Away With Rape In New Zealand
    Jessie Hume with last years petition against rape     The police have sent a strong message today.  In fact they’ve been sending a strong message for a while; a message that our government supports. “You can literally get away...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Roast Buster case – no charges. In the immortal words of NWA…
    Roast Busters case: No prosecutions Police are to make an announcement this afternoon on Operation Clover, the investigation into the “Roast Busters” allegations. The Herald understands the victim has been told that the alleged offenders will not be prosecuted due...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Key’s flag change distraction to cost $26million!
    No. Way. Bid to change NZ flag to cost millions The cost of holding two referendums and consulting on a change of flag has been estimated to be just under $26 million. Look. We all appreciate that the sleepy hobbits...
    The Daily Blog | 29-10
  • Why NZ Herald’s Labour Party crocodile tears are so audacious
    The front page the NZ Herald would use if they thought they could get away with it No one can take the recent columns by NZ Herald seriously… John Armstrong: Shadow lingers on National John Roughan: Labour’s leadership vote matters...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • The beginning of the end of Cameron Slater?
    Slater postings on man bizarre, court told A businessman has changed his appearance and had to install extra security at his home after Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater posted his business and personal documents online, he says. Mr Slater has...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • We are a milk power republic and Fonterra our unelected senate
    Wow. Just wow… Deputy mayor says he’ll be sacked South Taranaki deputy mayor Alex Ballantyne says he expects to be sacked because he has spoken out about the impact gasses coming from dumped Fonterra dairy products have had on his...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: “…But *actually* this is about ethics in political-game jo...
    Yesterday, a piece of mine on the recent revelations about Hone Harawira employing several gentlemen either accused or convicted of sex offences was published on The Daily Blog. Predictably, given the fierce loyalty which Hone inspires in his party faithful and...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • Privilege cheque
    There was no race problem in my childhood. Living in central Wellington I was well-insulated from what was going on not so far away. This was the 60s and 70s, where the teachers enjoyed free love in the staff room...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • A brief word on Key’s claim that it will be raining carnage
    Isis will ‘rain carnage on the world’ – John Key Left unchecked Isis would “rain carnage on the world”, Prime Minister John Key says, but he has yet to make a decision on whether New Zealand troops will join a...
    The Daily Blog | 28-10
  • Meanwhile…
    ...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • How does Andrew Little win Labour Leadership and unify the caucus?
    Audrey Young’s excellent column on how the Caucus vote  is shaping up shows how Andrew Little becomes the next leader of the Labour Party. She identifies the factions as the following… Andrew Little 6: Andrew Little, David Cunliffe, Iain Lees Galloway,...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Trinder – Right of response to Curwen
    You have asked that Hone Harawira deserves to explain what happened, how would he explain when his next door neighbour is an alleged sex offender. What explanation can Hone offer he wasn’t involved, Hone had no idea this offending was...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • MEDIA WATCH: That Hella-Weird Feeling When You Defend Tova O’Brien
    Oh dear. Yesterday morning I blogged that Hone deserved a chance to explain what exactly had happened as applies his office’s Parliamentary Services crew complement – and, importantly, that we deserve to be able to judge him on the strength of...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • Canadian Green MP warns against harsh anti-terror measures
    Canada’s Green Party has provided a welcome counterpoint to Prime Minister Harper’s call for tougher anti-terrorism laws in the wake of a soldier outside the Canadian Parliament. On October 22, while she was still locked in her parliamentary office, Green...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • When is an asset sale not an asset sale? When it robs from the poor and ste...
    National have turned state housing on its head. At no time during the 2014 election did the Key Government even hint that they were going to privatise 30% of the Housing NZ stock of state homes. Not once. Key even...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part To...
    . . Continued from: Housing; broken promises, families in cars, and ideological idiocy (Part Rua) . Bill English comes clean on National’s intentions for HNZ privatisation . On 14 October, in a report on The Daily Blog, I wrote, In...
    The Daily Blog | 27-10
  • The Questions Have Been Asked – They Deserve An Answer
    A few days ago, allegations that had been percolating for some time about Hone Harawira employing three either accused or convicted sex offenders on his Parliamentary pay-roll came to light. (one imprisoned before working for MANA; one who found himself convicted and...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • I have seen one future, and it is bleak
    . . Back in  March 2012, I wrote this story regarding a march to support striking workers at Ports of Auckland. It appears there was some prescience about some of my observations at the time… . | | 18 March...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • US air strike war Key wants us in has killed a civilian a day so far
      The US air strike war that John Key wants us to join has killed a civilian a day so far. From the Washington Post... The United States launched its first airstrikes on militants in Syria on Sept. 23, and has continued...
    The Daily Blog | 26-10
  • The instant Jihad syndrome
    My favourite new term is ‘self-radicalised’ – it suggests the reasons for terrorism are totally divorced from the actions of the West. This need to suddenly ramp up terror laws because of lone wolf, self-radicalised Jihadists seems convenient and counter-productive....
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • We have nothing to fear from Ebola but fear itself
    I suspect most Americans perceive Ebola like this   I can’t work out if the fear being spread within the media about Ebola is deliberate or just ignorance. Yes Ebola is a terrible plague that kills a large percentage of...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Anjum Rahman – “Meritocracy? I wish.”
    I’d like to start by linking to a post I had published at another site in support of Nanaia Mahuta for the Labour Party leadership election.  She has a reasonable chance, given that she already has the endorsement of Te...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • Chocolate milk shortage and creepy Santa? Let’s talk about real news
    Child poverty is still a scarily serious problem in this country and house prices are soaring through the roof to the point where it is simply impossible for the average New Zealander to buy a home. There is also little...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • It’s time to celebrate Kiwi schools and teachers
    Some would have you believe that New Zealand’s schools are in a state of collapse, that your children are not being educated well and that things are going to hell in a hand basket.  That there is no innovation, no...
    The Daily Blog | 25-10
  • Ideological Blitzkrieg – Privatization of state housing, more charter sch...
    Pundits in pundit land will tell you that this Government is boring, that Key is the great pragmatist and that it is his ability to create elegant solutions that keeps him the firm favourite in many Kiwi eyes. This ability...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • Hegemony rules but resistance is fertile
    The Prime Minister is a puppet. Not just our current Prime Minister, but given the forces of multinational globalisation, the role of any head of state, is less as independent actor, and more as a puppet of international trends and...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • An open Letter to Sir Bob Jones: demanding a ‘liveable wage’ is not “...
    How out of touch with reality is Sir Bob Jones? You know, that white dude who invested in privatised SOEs after the selling off of our assets in the eighties and made a ludicrous and disgusting amount of money and is...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • My insecurity about the Security Council
    As I write this (on 24 October) it is international UN Day. Of course, you all knew that already, right? Well, the day celebrates the entry into force of the UN Charter in 1945. With the ratification of this founding...
    The Daily Blog | 24-10
  • GUEST BLOG: Catherine Delahunty – Back in That House
    Parliament opened this week and I still find it a very odd place. Most of the people are reasonably courteous and friendly, but the rituals are archaic and the rules around issues like the swearing in oath are oppressive and...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Marae Investigates No More
    TVNZ yesterday announced the closure of their Māori and Pacific programmes department. That means they’ve chosen to stop making Fresh, Tagata Pasifika, Waka Huia and Marae Investigates to let independent producers get their hands on these lucrative contracts. This is...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • BLOGWATCH: An Un-Civil War in Labour, eh?
    Earlier today, my attention was directed to an entry that’s just recently appeared on the Slightly Left of Centre blog. It purports to contain the ‘inside word’ from a highly placed NZF source – which is funny, because I’m pretty sure...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Santanomics 101
    Santanomics could mean a number of things. It could be the study and practice of giving. Or it could mean the study and practice of rampant end-of-year commercialism. However, for me today it is the economics of erectingAuckland’s giant Santa...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • SkyCity boss misleads public over workers lost shifts
    SkyCity CEO Nigel Morrison has defended the employment practices at his company in an “Opinion” piece entitled “Human Capital key to corporate success” in the NZ Herald on Thursday. A number of his claims are misleading, contain only partial truths...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • Review: Perfect Place
    I went to a Perfect Place on Tuesday night, and what a delight it was. The marshmallows sweetly (and forcefully) handed out pre-show, set the tone for the next hour. Walking up the stairs at The Basement was a complete...
    The Daily Blog | 23-10
  • 5AA Australia – NZ on UN Security Council + Dirty Politics Lingers On
    5AA Australia: Selwyn Manning and Peter Godfrey deliver their weekly bulletin Across The Ditch. General round up of over night talkback issues: Thongs, Jandals and flip-flops… ISSUE 1: New Zealand has been successful in its campaign to become a non...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • When I mean me, I mean my office & when I call whaleoil I mean not as m...
    This. Is. Ludicrous. Green Party co-leader Russel Norman put the first of what are likely to be many questions about Mr Key’s relationship with Slater, asking him how many times he had phoned or texted the blogger since 2008. “None...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • A brief word on describing the Government as ‘boring and bland’
    The narrative being sown is that this Government will be a boring and bland third term. Boring and bland. Since the election, Key has announced he is privatising 30% of state houses without reinvesting any of that money back into housing society’s most...
    The Daily Blog | 22-10
  • Roast Busters: Turn Indignation into Action
    People raged about the Roast Buster case. The indignation was justified – it was horrible. “Where were their parents!?” Fair question. I am sure the Roast Busters’ parents and the victims’ parents all wish they had been more proactive in...
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Stats NZ only have themselves to blame for postponement
    The Public Service Association (PSA) says Statistics NZ only have themselves to blame for the indefinite postponement of the release of the Food Price Index: November 2014....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • NZ Diversity Survey – benchmarking workplace diversity
    AUT University’s New Zealand Work Research Institute (NZWRI) has released a report on diversity in New Zealand workplaces....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Māori Language (Te Reo Māori) Bill
    Tutehounuku Korako, Chair of the Māori Affairs Committee, is inviting further public submissions on this bill. The closing date for submissions is Friday, 5 December 2014....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • ERA amendments a mixed bag
    The Employment Relations Amendment Act has the potential to put vulnerable workers in a more precarious position, says Equal Opportunities Commissioner, Dr Jackie Blue. However, the commissioner says the right for all to request flexible work hours is...
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Sensible Sentencing calls for appeal of judicial activivism
    The Sensible Sentencing Trust is appalled that Justice Jill Mallon has today refused to apply the Life without Parole (LWOP) provisions of the Three Strikes law as enacted by Parliament....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Global Rally against ISIS – for Kobanê – for Humanity, Nov 1
    The New Zealand Kurdish Community will march in solidarity with Kurdistan as part of the “GLOBAL RALLY AGAINST ISIS – FOR KOBANÊ – FOR HUMANITY” on 1 November 2014, 2pm....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Does ‘No-Surprises’ Also Apply To TVNZ News?
    When you stand back and look at NZ media outlets, most of them have at least one or two people who attempt to hold the government to account: John Campbell on TV3, Guyon Espiner and others at Radio NZ, David...
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Safer roads are better for everyone
    Recent pedestrian versus vehicle incidents highlight the real issues being addressed by delegates as the 2Walk and Cycle conference concludes....
    Scoop politics | 31-10
  • Law change creates more flexible labour market
    The Employment Relations Amendment Act, passed yesterday, will bring new flexibility to the labour market and will reduce the ability of unions to organise and to recruit....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Bumper ANZ profits mean no excuse for insecure hours
    A big rise in profits at New Zealand's largest bank needs to be reflected in a better pay offer and more security around hours of work, the bank workers’ union said today....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Count down to lowered alcohol limit
    With just a month to go until a new lower alcohol limit for adult drivers comes into effect, Police and road safety agencies are reminding drivers of the impending change....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • WorkSafe Supports Forestry Review Findings
    WorkSafe NZ says the Independent Forestry Safety Review has clearly identified the problems facing an industry in which ten workers were killed last year. “The Review’s analysis matches our own view and leaves no doubt about the need for comprehensive,...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CTU welcomes forestry review recommendations
    The CTU is welcoming the today's release of the independent forestry safety review panel findings. "These recommendations must be implemented to ensure that everything possible is done to make forestry safer." CTU President, Helen Kelly said....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Activists will confront animal abusers
    Today animal rights activists will confront a group of wealth advisers who want to build the biggest egg factory-farm in New Zealand....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Turia: Women’s Refuge Conference 2014
    This is a milestone moment in my life. This will be my last official address as Co-leader of the Maori Party. On Saturday night at our Hui-a-Tau, I will be standing down from that role and enabling a new co-leader,...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Rodeo Code of Welfare ‘Sick Joke’
    Animal advocacy organisation SAFE says the revised Code of Welfare for Rodeos just released is nothing but a sick joke. “Rodeo animals are goaded, tormented and forced to endure needless suffering and gross mistreatment, all for the sake of so-called...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Conservative Party applauds binding referenda on flag
    The Conservative Party are congratulating the Government on the decision to hold two binding referendums to decide the fate of New Zealand’s flag – and believes it will pave the way for binding referenda to form part of New Zealand...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Walk the Talk – Opposing violence against women
    Soroptimist International of Auckland have organised a walk on 22 November from Silo Park at the Wynyard Quarter through the Viaduct and back to Silo Park, to show their opposition to violence against women. This event hopes to raise awareness...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Recommendations on the Design of Pecuniary Penalties
    The Law Commission has reviewed the use of pecuniary penalties as a regulatory tool. Pecuniary penalties are financial penalties that policymakers are increasingly opting to use in place of criminal sanctions in order to punish and deter misconduct in...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Every worker will be affected by employment law changes
    Every worker will feel the effects of the government’s new employment laws and should join a union if they want to maintain and increase their wages and conditions, says New Zealand’s largest private sector union, the EPMU....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Shameful attack on all workers
    The Government has passed the Employment Relations Amendment Act slashing the rights of all Kiwi workers. “These changes are shameful. New Zealand now has some of the worst employment protections in the OECD. It is embarrassing that a country which...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Unnecessary law changes more to do with ideology
    The government’s employment law changes are simply ideological and are at odds with its approach in the related areas of health and safety and immigration law, FIRST Union said tonight....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CTU Runanga calls on iwi leaders
    Maori workers are calling on iwi leaders to speak out against the employment law changes expected to go through today. “Iwi leaders have previously spoken out when workers in Aotearoa have been under attack, we believe they should do so...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Educating children not the best solution to alcohol harm
    Alcohol Healthwatch says we need to look beyond educating children and young people to address deeply embedded attitudes and behaviours concerning alcohol....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • New code of welfare for rodeos released
    New standards to strengthen the animal welfare requirements for rodeos have been issued today by the Minister for Primary Industries, Nathan Guy....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • IPCA report riddle with inaccuracies, say students
    A report by the Independent Police Conduct Authority into the policing of student protests in 2012 is riddled with inaccuracies, say students who laid the original complaint with the IPCA....
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • CT v The Queen – indecency convictions quashed
    This summary is provided to assist in the understanding of the Court’s judgment. It does not comprise part of the reasons for that judgment. The full judgment with reasons is the only authoritative document. The full text of the judgment...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Rameka v The Queen – murder convictions quashed
    This summary is provided to assist in the understanding of the Court’s judgment. It does not comprise part of the reasons for that judgment. The full judgment with reasons is the only authoritative document. The full text of the judgment...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Auckland Council Out of Control
    Responding to the NZ Herald article that some Auckland households will face a rates rise of up to 9.6 per cent next year, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director Jordan Williams says: “Len Brown’s pledge to cap rates rises at 2.5 per...
    Scoop politics | 30-10
  • Stats NZ staff escalate action with ‘no more meetings’ rule
    Statistics NZ staff have voted to escalate their ongoing industrial action in an effort to get Stats NZ back to the bargaining table with a reasonable offer. The staff, who are members of the Public Service Association (PSA), have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Rape Crisis calls for changes to criminal justice system
    Wellington Rape Crisis has added its voice to the public outcry following the announcement that there will be no charges in the teen rape gang case. Butterworth says the decision not to lay charges will not have been a surprise...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Police action justified in Blockade the Budget demonstration
    Police actions in dealing with a demonstration in Central Auckland known as Blockade the Budget on 1 June 2012 were justified and appropriate, an Independent Police Conduct Authority report released today found....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • NZDF Joins with Australia to Commemorate WWI Centenary
    A contingent of New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) personnel will join their Australian counterparts at Australia’s first major commemoration of the First World War centenary in Albany, Western Australia this weekend....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Reserve Bank should reduce interest rate
    “The Reserve Bank should be reducing its policy interest rate, the OCR”, says CTU Economist Bill Rosenberg in response to the Bank’s announcement today that it is not increasing it....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • 2015 Stout Fellow will write about Māori & Criminal Justice
    Kim Workman, founder and advocate for the Robson Hanan Trust, which administers the Rethinking Crime and Punishment and Justspeak initiatives, has been awarded the 2015 John David Stout Fellowship at Victoria University....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • What John Key thought about ‘dirty politics’
    On September 20, John Key swept to victory to become one of New Zealand’s most successful and popular Prime Ministers. Rocked by scandal, the 2014 election campaign was one of the most brutal – and riveting – in recent history....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Trade Deal Threatens Farmers and Food Businesses
    The secret Trans Pacific Partnership negotiations are a direct threat to food businesses and farmers, and a moratorium on the release of GE crops must be enshrined in law before the TPP is signed....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • CTU announces election of new Secretary
    The contested election for the position of CTU Secretary has been won by Sam Huggard. Sam officially takes office on Monday 1 December 2014. Sam has worked in the union movement and brings a wealth of experience and a commitment...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kim Workman awarded 2015 J.D. Stout Fellowship
    The Victoria University of Wellington 2015 J.D. Stout Fellowship, funded by the Stout Trust, has been awarded to justice reform advocate Kim Workman. Mr Workman (Ngati Kahungungu ki Wairarapa, Rangitaane) is well known for his work on criminal justice,...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • TPPA causing concern
    Concern over the secretive Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPPA) negotiations is being expressed in two public meetings over the next week; one at a presentation on 5th November by former councillor Robin Gwynn to the Napier City Council, the...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Kiwis rally to demand justice for ‘Roast Buster’ survivors
    Over 1,500 kiwis have rallied to demand justice after the announcement of the NZ Police decision not to lay charges in the ‘Roast Busters’ saga....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • New employment law will hurt the most vulnerable NZers
    The Public Service Association (PSA) says changes to the Employment Relations Act, expected to be passed in Parliament tonight, will hurt vulnerable workers and their families more than anyone....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Consultation to close on proposed place names
    The New Zealand Geographic Board (NZGB) Ngā Pou Taunaha o Aotearoa today advised that only one month remains before public consultation closes for 18 name proposals for geographic features and places around Te Ika ā Māui (the North Island)....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Operation Clover – Statement from Police Commissioner
    I have taken a close interest in this investigation and I am confident police have conducted a thorough and professional enquiry in what has been a challenging and complex case. The Operation Clover team has ensured that victims have been...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Better policy would have protected children from recession
    Child Poverty Action Group says an international report released by UNICEF today shows good policy can protect and improve child well-being, even during a recession....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Outcome of Operation Clover investigation
    Police have completed a multi-agency investigation, Operation Clover, into the activities of a group calling themselves “The Roast Busters”. The 12 month enquiry focused on incidents involving allegations of sexual offending against a number of girls...
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • False birth registration brings home detention
    A Whangarei woman who attempted to register the birth of a fictitious child to claim a sole parent benefit was sentenced to six months home detention in the Whangarei District Court today....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Family of Robert Ellis demand a proper investigation
    The family of a New Zealander killed in Indonesia are growing increasingly concerned at the lack of information they’ve received, and the handling of the investigation into his murder....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
  • Minister of Health must account for aged care workers’ pay
    The New Zealand Federation of Business and Professional Women (BPW NZ) congratulates rest-home worker Kristine Bartlett on her landmark claim for equal pay from her employer and successfully pursuing this to the Court of Appeal....
    Scoop politics | 29-10
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