I had to leave a rather long note about when and how we moderate on legal issues and public interest because Bob (at least) clearly doesn’t understand it.
You’d think that after all of these years since Lange vs Atkinson that people will have caught up with the arguments that the court of appeal and privy council ruled on.
Try clapping your hands 110 times within 13 secs. That’s how fast the floors were pulverized. It went so fast, they couldn’t even hit eachother. The floors were pulverized to dust in mid-air.
The Toronto hearings condensed for those of you interested to hear what scientists, Architects and engineers have to say about the events of 9/11
Without commenting on the merits of this particular instance, it seems fairly logical that the further away we get from an event, the more plausible different theories about it are. Fewer people have direct knowledge, primary sources start to fade … see also: Nazca Plateau, Jack the Ripper, the moon landings.
I am healthily skeptical about 9/11 particularly building 7 and the Pentagon that do not appear to have been hit by planes and the suspicious lack of publicly available photos of wreckage from flight 93.
This stuff should be pursued to the end, just as one Augusto Pinochet was, because it is about how “civilized” societies function. The WWII Polish Katyn forest executions by Soviet forces were known about by the allies from the start but they only ’fessed up this year! Do those in charge do horrible things to the people? I can sense a few nods from readers here… yes they bloody do, so why not sections of the US spook/corporate brigade.
At one stage Lprent suggested if interest in this topic was going to continue then maybe a dedicated thread could be set up. This could be worth looking at, so the disinterested or general reader could avoid. But that is easy for me to say as I do not run the blog!
Perhaps instead a simple links hub could be facilitated.
Somewhere that links only are posted into either a Truther/Denier ‘twin tables’ set up that people can freely investigate without the judgement and the vitriol that usually accompanies them.
Just a thought.
Good on ya, TC. However, the best response is probably the rolling eyes or taking this ever useful advice: DNFTT. Still, you managed to get one fool to throw in a bizarro world link to the JFK shooting, so well done for that!
ps. Freedom, I’m not saying the GFC and 9/11 fantasies are definitely linked, but the answer to your question might be found here.
TRP, i am not going to get into a 911 debate here as face to face communication is the only successful method of helping someone break through the cognitive dissonance that is strangling the world. If you choose to continue ignoring the laws of physics and the mind-buggeringly huge amount of data that obliterates every aspect of the official story there is little that a hundred hours of online bickering will achieve.
People either wake up or they don’t. I stopped wasting my time fighting it online last year. instead i take every opportunity that arises in the real world to engage, assist and educate anyone who shows the telltale signs of 911 ignorance. I can honestly say i have personally witnessed the ‘awakening’ of over a hundred people in that time and it is getting easier every single time.
So either people have a growing awareness of the issue or i am just an incredibly persuasive individual who gets rational adults to believe in what you call fantasies.
Cheers to you, too, freedom. I’m pretty much at the same level of frustration as yourself and most of the time I ignore the madness of the 9/11 truth deniers. But, this is a left wing site and occasionally I rise to the bait that the righties throw. I know I should really take my own advice and stop feeding the trolls, but occasionally its worthwhile anyway, just for conversations such as this.
Ultimately, the best defence against the mis-named truthers is the truth. And the complete lack of any factual comfirmation of an alternative conspiracy to the successful AQ led attack on the WTC speaks volumes.
11 years, 8 days. Still no evidence. Occam’s razor remains as sharp as ever.
I like to remind truthers that the Bush government was so freaking inept at everything else it tried but somehow has pulled of the most masterful of conspiracies without there ever being a whistle blower?
Ok – normally i dont join in this argument, because it has no end – ever.
however – im still of the opinion that…
“there are many conspiracies about 9/11 – the US govt’s is one of them”. Theres just too much stuff that doesnt add up in ANY given explanation.
I know that puts me in a bit of a stasis/fence sitting position – but i can live with that
I don’t have an opinion either way, but I do like to watch the argument sometimes and how illogic pops up on both sides.
For instance, the idea that the Bush administration is so inept they couldn’t have pulled this off, plus the argument that no-one has ever spoken out about the conspiracy, remind me of the commentary in the days following 11/9 where people couldn’t believe that Arabs were capable of planning and carrying out such an attack.
Sure Berny, but in the days after 11/9 that’s not what people were talking about. They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
“Yes. That’s how propaganda works.”
True, but I think it was also the US people just not being that aware of the rest of the world and having a retarded view of Middle Eastern countries.
Anyway, my original point, somewhere, such as it was, was that saying that there is no conspiracy because Bush is an idiot is akin to saying Al Qaeda weren’t smart enough to pull off the attacks. Neither argument makes logical sense. (and yes, I know, logic in this debate, a vain hope).
but the logic falls down because it’s a flse equivalence.
The controlled demolition theory calls for an extremely complicated plan that hasn’t been put forward. ie, we know that it must have been extremely complicated, and we have had no suggestion of how they might have carried it out. We also know that the alleged planners have a track record of fucking much simpler things up.
The terrorist attack theory is highly detailed; there are loads of very good analytical and investigative books, including interviews with the planners, timelines, historical threads, the whole gambit. It’s also a much simpler explanation of events, needing much less planning, and the alleged planners had the experience to do it.
How many options do I have?
I’ve lived in pain my whole life, captivating?Engineered?UNPaidFor?
I should change my handle to BloodyOrphan, maybe that’d help
Maybe they just pretend to agree so they can escape your explanations, freedom.
I’ve got some doubts about what happened with building 7, but haven’t seen anything yet which comes close to making me think about why the other two towers collapsed. As for the wreckage in the forest – when planes hit vertically or near vertically, they tend to excavate deep holes for themselves. Bf 109s going into English soil sometimes managed to get surprisingly deep.
As for the Pentagon – the plane flew over the top of a friend’s car just before it hit. His wife was driving and he is an American scientist, so we’re probably trying to suppress something. Yawn.
Trav yeah trav60,000 tons of material coming down 14ft gaining momentum then gathering in another 70 floors at 2,000 tons each I think your brains have been pulverized by blinkered thinking.
As for your thermite theory its just a theory thermite could easily be made from the aluminium joinery and the aluminium lining of the gibboard (Dry wall )rubbing together under huge forces 500,000 tons with the momentum building gathering up as the building crashes down the amount of energy and destruction would be in the 100,s of millions of tons equivalent in energy dissipated which could quite easily produce pockets of nano thermite.
For those of you wanting to learn more about what Mike E is talking about here is an excellent analysis of the collapse of the South tower and why there is no pile driver (Which would be against the laws of physics as the top of the building would find the path of least resistance) from Greame McQueen. called waiting for the Wham!
And Mike E you might take your blinkers off for about an hour and watch the presentation too and the same goes for McFlock
Without seeing the presentation cause it’s been removed, there could’ve been a number of factors affecting the actual collapse ….
Initial Impact ?
Wind
Interior weight redistribution
Pure random office weight distribution
And those poor people of course.
From the footage I’ve seen, admittedly vague these days, it looked pretty natural to me, if an airplane colliding with a building can be described as natural.
Airplane fuel burns hot enough to melt Steel.
There’s another possible “Moving Mass”
i have to respond to that mike, and i will do so with a quick question
Care to explain how a steel I-beam that was identified as coming from above the point of impact was found embedded in a building 400+ m away from where it was originally riveted and welded into place?
The nonsensical statements that have no basis in science (or even bother with logic) such as that delivered from mike e above, are why i prefer to keep my 911 work on a face to face platform these days. People are far less willing to throw out bs when they have to sit there defending and or explaining their assertions that always end up contradicting or defeating their own statements.
Its funny these conspiracy theorists seem to believe aliens have already landed and just about everything is a conspiracy just about all the theorists I know are unemployed or in low wage jobs I suppose its a form of escapism.
But these conspiracy theorists Don’t believe in Vaccinating their children either!
Another one was that the swine flu vaccination was going to wipe out your immune system.
My family has all got the swine flu jab and you couldn’t meet a healthier bunch of people.
I see their kids ( the ones who haven’t immunised their children )and most of them are anaemic
and physically small Always off school sick with something wrong!
Well Mike, I know some pretty high level business people, intelligent, educated and the like, and guess what, they ask questions too, because they are not stupid, and they don;t believe what is rolled out by TPTB , on all manor of subjects. Only a complete fool believes that corporations, war machines, intelligence industries, big oil, pharma, war on drugs, war on terror etc are there for your well being. Only a FOOL would not want to at least try to see if there is more going on, and a coward would deny it!
Questioning the party line, and looking for understadings is a responsibility we all should take on, sure that does not mean we will all agree etc, which is fine, but hey the conversations become much more interesting than rugby, beer and other house extensions, or isn’t so and so a bitch, and other irrelevant topics. making up so called conversation in NZ.
Which person makes the world a potentially worse place for everyone to live, now and in future, including for your kids, nieces, nephews or gandkids etc?
1: The person who seeks understandings and answers, and questions events which shape this world?
or
2: The person who accepts what they are told and never questions the version of what they are told is happening around them?
no mcFlock it is simply an instructive and basic visualization tool that forces your consciousness to realize that one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times. It is the niggling reality of the situation that you are fighting and which causes you to react so predictably.
At 3 metres / floor, 110 floors = 330 metres in 13 seconds.
Average speed = 25 Metres per second. (about 90KpH).
G = 9.8M/s/s
After 13 seconds free-fall acceleration that = 147.4M/s (530KpH). It would have travelled 891.8 Metres. At 3M/floor that’s 297 times.
Average speed 68.6M/s or 247KpH.
Obviously this doesn’t include wind or concrete resistance, but in order to replicate the theoretical average frequency of floor destruction at freefall speeds, you would need to clap nearly 300 times in 13 seconds.
Obviously the law of gravity breaks the laws of physics.
Hahahah,
Let’s calculate something and exclude one of the most prominent qualities: that of concrete resistance.
The law of gravity obeys the three laws of Physics. If the law of gravity had been obeyed as well as the laws of physics the top which you claim acted as a sledge hammer would have found the path of least resistance.
You should really watch Greame McQueen’s presentation linked to above.
There there C, calm down. Of course the laws of physics were obeyed. Nothing can break the laws of Physics. It is just that the official story can’t have happened unless 19 young Muslims could break them. In order to pulverise the buildings and allow them to come down into their own footprint someone had to have access to all three buildings and place explosives in them, s’all.
Only with a huge amount of extra energy could those buildings come down. Office fires and kerosene could not have done that.
You realise that the plane itself is made of many elements with different melting points (like aluminium and magnesium) which would melt and burn before steel, adding to the ferocity of the fire, and that steel is significantly weakened in high temperatures
Secondly you have never explained when and how the explosives got into a building with 24 hour surveillance and bomb sniffing dogs and without alerting security or anyone else that worked there.
You also failed to address the fact that the it wasn’t the top few floors vs the rest of the building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.
I watched it this morning and personally believe it’s complete bollocks.
Trav, read this next bit very slowly …. the top of the building DID follow the path of least resistance. All laws, including Newton’s, which you claim weren’t, were followed to the letter.
Either you are right in which case there was no resistance all the way to the ground where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building indicating the destruction of the building by something other than the Sledgehammer Mike e is talking about or you’re wrong and the top bit rammed the bottom bit to smithereens breaking the laws of physics.
You can’t have it both ways. Your turn.
no-one has ever said there was “no resistance”, or course there was. But just not as much as you think there was. Your use of the words: “just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building” are clearly incorrect. The top clearly fell through at least 1 floor with little to no resistance.
The floor trusses in those 2 buildings were clearly the weak point. With the top 12 floors tipping and leaning to one side, all of the resulting force was being transferred through a smaller footprint, clearly more than was able to be withheld, leading to the structural failure. The floors were made of only 4 inch thick “lightweight” concrete.
To quote wikipedia: “While the buildings were designed to support enormous static loads, they provided little resistance to the moving mass of the sections above the floors where the collapses initiated. Structural systems respond very differently to static and dynamic loads, and since the motion of the falling portion began as a free fall through the height of at least one story (roughly three meters or 10 feet), the structure beneath them was unable to stop the collapses once they began. Indeed, a fall of only half a meter (about 20 inches) would have been enough to release the necessary energy to begin an unstoppable collapse”
and … “Once the collapse initiated, the mass of failing floors overwhelmed the floors below, causing a progressive series of floor failures which accelerated as the sequence progressed. Soon large portions of the perimeter columns and possibly the cores were left without any lateral support, causing them to fall laterally towards the outside pushed by the increasing pile of rubble. The result was the walls peeling off and separating away from the buildings by a large distance (about 500 feet in some cases), hitting other neighboring buildings. Some connections broke as the bolts snapped, leaving many panels randomly scattered. Significant parts of the naked cores (about 60 stories for the North Tower and 40 for the South Tower) remained standing for some seconds before they also collapsed themselves”
Anyway, you and i have had countless arguments about this topic and neither one of us is going to budge. I don’t even know why i bothered commenting on the topic again. The weight of evidence is on my side, not yours. so, as you most eloquently put it …. your turn.
I’d love to see a truther account one tenth as detailed as the various and numerous accounts that are to be found of the mainstream theory.
For example, I’d like to know how much ‘nano thermite’ would have been needed and where it was placed. Then we’d need a discussion that takes account of the nature of thermite, that it burns rather than explodes, so it usually requires aditional explosives to shift the cut steel.
Factor that into the images we have of the collapse and explain how it all happened, and whether it makes sens to do it that way.
The plan would have had to take account of the fact that several floors were severely damaged by the plane crashes and fires. How was this built into the pla? How did the wiring plans for the thermite and explosives build redundancy in to deal with this?
Is the controlled demolition theory explaining what we see, or is the controlled demolition account trying to force itself on to what is being observed?
But we never get offered any detail. After a decade, there is still no explanation of their account.
agree! i’m especially interested in how all the tons and tons of explosives and thermite were wired into the building with kilometers of demolition cord, under the noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.
All the while being placed in exactly the correct place for a plain to hit the buildings and not damage said explosives rig. Then requiring someone to press the button to initiate the collapse while knowing 300 odd innocent firefighters were still inside the building with no change of escape.
Benny D is right but trav you are just repeating con job.
You don’t understand laws of physics tell me why it takes 1.2km to stop a1200tonne train going along tracks !
then tell me how you would stop 60,000 tonnes which is gaining momentum also fighting the effects of gravity stops .
The train isn’t gaining momentum and has only a mild gravitational drag!
Those buildings were built quickly cheaply using formally illegal methods until they conned NY City to go back to old methods using clip in prefabricated floor trusses !
Now you will find that the flooring systems in use today has to be bolted in with very expensive non sheer temp proof bolts!
They’ve learned from the mistakes!
I was pointing out that the speed of the towers was within the bounds highest possible speed with no resistance, i.e. freefall speed, and that therefore your “hands clapping” argument is batshit-stupid idiocy.
We might have some agreement, though – the towers fell at slower than freefall speed due to concrete being in the way.
Just for the record, this bloke can clap 12-13 times a second. So, clearly, it is possible to clap 110 times in 13 seconds, which probably negates whatever vague point Trav was trying to make. But no matter, it just makes the comparison entirely consistent with the rest of the truther claims, which are equally bogus.
What isn’t a conspiracy theory is that it has been found that GW Bush has been found to have lied to the American public in saying he wasn’t warned of an impending attack he was warned but didn’t take it seriously as he thought that no one would dare attack the US!
Those cats were talking about it in 99, problem was no one could fathom it.
and I’m just a cat off the street.
They created a lot of fear with that “engineered” approach.
You can see it in Afghanistan and other places right now
The first speaker is a lady by the name of Laurie van Auken. She was one of the people who fought for an investigation into what happened. She lost her husband on 9/11. As long as people like her want to fight for a new and independent investigation I’m with her
Fair enuf, in a civilised world that’s a good thing, power too them, but I think in this case the inuendo I speek of is all there is behind it, truely sorry for their loss, heartbreaking.
It was street level info from NZ.
Regardless of whether you thought the WTC was deliberately demolished or not, you have to admit, that it is rather strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.
Given that black boxes have been recovered in dense jungles, shark infested oceans and icy rivers, it would be pretty straightforward for them to be recovered in the rubble of a destroyed building or in the Pennsylvania countryside.
“The Flight 93 flight data recorders were recovered. The Flight 77 black boxes were also removed from the Pentagon, but one of them (the cockpit voice recorder) was too badly damaged to be used. The only boxes not to be recovered were from the World Trade Centre impacts ”
The World Trade Centre ones were destroyed – is that surprising given the extreme forces involved there?
Black boxes aren’t indestructible. They aren’t always recovered.
And these crashes were not normal – crazies at the steering wheel with the accelerator to the floor.
It’s like the old moon landing conspiracy nonsense:
“There are no stars in the background!” – because the sun light fades them out, the sky is black because there is no atmosphere on the moon otherwise it is just like we don’t see stars in the blue daytime sky.
And seriously, would someone go to all that trouble to fake a mooning landing and forget to paint the stars on the background? 🙄
The moon is a completely alien environment, what is experienced on Earth and taken for granted is turned upside down.
That type of issue is why I remain a 9/11 skeptic Millsy, not a ‘Truther’, follow the evidence.
No plane appears to have hit the Pentagon or building seven so what did happen?
A govt., or sections of it, would not harm it’s own people? C’mon Pol Pot, Indonesia, Chile, Syria.
Building 7 was hit by a large chunk of one of the falling towers, TM. And while you’ll get no argument from me on America’s historical propensity to use its power extra-judicially, to do so against its own citizens on a mass scale has no modern precedent.
The wikipedia site has pretty common sense descriptions of the main theories, including the video of the Pentagon crash. The guts of it is, for me, that there is no credible alternative to the established facts. And the complete absence of human corroboration of the inside job is the clincher. No whistleblower, no stray email, no oh so human cock up.
It is what it is. A relatively simple plot, using a classic guerilla technique, modernised; multiple hits to maximise the chance of success. They succeeded because a highjacking with the intention of destroying the aircraft and all aboard was inconceivable. Security, till then, had been premised on the idea that political hijackers wanted publicity and a safe haven; that they intended to survive.
There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.
There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.,
That comment I just had to laugh at, especially when you used the words ignorant, google search, bits of engine, wheels, parts , logos etc.
Its like Voice saying that Wiki is a reliable source., and no prescedent etc…
Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.
ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.
It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!
Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.
Its all BS on every angle, it so obvious, no need to spend time dwelling on it. No need to waste time on what stinks from top to bottom!
ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.
Now you’re catching on, slow, but better you got there….I don’t even mind that its you who finally caught on to my position on such matters around deliberate confusion on every angle. Next you just have to develop the inate ability to be able to tell the shite in the lies….You dont have it though, your words tell me that for sure. Worse you have no interest in even trying, which is why you will remain confused on so many issues!
It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!
Funny how she never once mentions the airliner debris on the lawn.
You’d think amongst all the other things she’s assessed she’d have a damn good theory about how the parts were stored inside the building to be found after the event or conveniently dropped in full view in the moments before people arrived on the scene to lend help.
Odd this is never addressed given that she has worked out everything else. Did she forget?
It seems that the only crime in the universe where the people pointing out that there is a problem with the story of the people who have most to gain by the crime, namely the military industrial complex who had earned trillions with the wars started in the aftermath, have to prove their allegations before a police investigation is started is the crime of 911.
This compares to a case were bystanders, who after a bloody body has been found, have to prove the guy who inherited all the dosh is guilty, after they point out the story he is telling is scientifically impossible, before a proper police investigation is started.
If you find a bloody body and call the police they come and investigate. They interrogate, question and use science to prove or disprove who has done the deed.
It is not our job to find out every detail and every facet of the story. We have done our job in that we have pointed out that scientifically the official story is a load of BS.
Even the members of the 9/11 commission declared they were set up to fail and are denouncing their own results.
We want a new and independent investigation into what happened on that day and we are not alone in this.
End of story!
I want a new and independent inquiry into why she completely ignores the most telling pieces of evidence, something you just spent a lot of words dancing around but never actually addressed either. Alternatives are fine, but they lack credibility when they just pretend counters don’t exist.
Even NIST denies the damage was cause for the collapse. In fact after seven years they said that they could not explain the collapse of building 7. Could have something to do with the fact that they refused to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition perhaps?
TM building seven how many tonnes of debris fell on building 7
Do they have cameras pointing at the pentagon all the time maybe now but not then the black box was recovered innocent passengers were killed!
The right wing will be laughing their heads of off over these conspiracy theorists !
At the time of the attack on the Pentagon some 83 camera’s were pointed at the Pentagon at all times. Every footage of those cameras has been confiscated. We know this because the FBI The FBI acknowledges Having 83 video’s in their possession which they refuse to release. Only 6 frames have been released to date which do not show clear footage.
Here’s one of the classic situations where something mundane gets built upon and reimagined until the ‘facts’ shift to give the veneer of something suspicious.
“83 camera’s ..pointed at the Pentagon at all times” were nothing of the sort. There were 83 films taken by or given as evidence to the FBI. Most showed no images of the crash site (some were of the WTC events, some were from Florida and one from Wisconsin!) or were by people who attended the site after the event. Some were tourist videos, so pretty bored tourists if they have their cameras pointed at the Pentagon ‘all the time’
Why were they not released? Because the FOIA request only asked for videos showing the impact. The one that showed it was released after the completion of the Massoui trial.
Most, if not all, of the others have also been released since. http://penttbom.com/
So Eve presents a whole lot of not even half truths she has muddled together into a half baked blob of nothing, then adds some fairy dust and hey presto it’s a scandal.
.
Christchurch, I have realised, is experiencing one of those good old cliches / sayings that your granny always used to say. One of them ones which ring true and you get to see in action from time to time…
And that is “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”
This government, with no plan to do anything anywhere in the economy or elsewhere, sees in Christchurch an opportunity to show it does stuff. You know, “right, lets get on with it. No point is sitting around, just get stuck in”. But they are bozos blowing it with their bluster and big man bullshit.
Two example. Firstly, the blueprint is such a massive undertaking that it is almost certainly going to struggle. Getting into the detail and action it becomes apparent that there are major issues not thought through sufficiently. The sorts of issues that cause things to stall, then re-think, then try again and by that time everyone has realised that the government actually had no idea in the first place.
Secondly, the school closures. The people and protests on te news are 100% right. The schools have been a beacon of normality for people, especially children. So why the rush? Why not start the conversation now and tell the communities that some time in the next couple of years some schools are going to have to close? Then the communities would have time to adjust, discuss, etc. That would seem to be the obvious and caring way. But no…
sounds good to me vto.
and by that time a decent Labour government that understands the concept of fair play for all will be back in power and the job can be done properly instead of the Jerry built way they are doing things now.
Just been reviewing the slow queries log after seeing nasty slowdowns over the last few days. Added a few indexes into comments that hopefully will improve things. Apologies to anyone caught while the scripts were running.
Oh well off to the paid employment and what looks like a bug deep deep inside of webkit.
Great. I have seen that a few times myself. FF has this script engine that runs a lot of the internals and sometimes it seems to get itself quite screwed up. I suspect plugins myself.
I’m migrated pretty much to Chrome for normal use these days because it is on all my platforms :- linux, ios, android, virtual microsoft machines, microsoft server 2003 R2 (legacy systems), osx (to use xcode for ios grrr…), and even in the once a month boot of a dual partition vista (for bloody itunes grrr). It also seems to be pretty damn robust and quite fast for every platform I’ve used it on. Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release
Yeah suspect it’s flash player myself, re installed it to no avail tho.
(Had a strange error / crash after visiting the standard this time)
Haven’t used chrome much, it’s installed but not used.
‘skating away, skating away….on the Thin Ice of a New Day”
Well-grounded actually. (just have to manage the emotional cycles of the day)
We all have our crosses to bear, i imagine
i also imagine the Diversity of people who may read or reference The Standard
came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal
came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal
He is a somewhat selective and always has been. For some strange reason he never seems to get the lesson that it makes very little difference if authors here are using their real names (like Ben Clark), or a psuedonym like myself when I’ve been using the same one for 30 years – it was my first login name, or where it is a psuedonym.
But you can’t get a sense of a person until you actually know them in person. Knowing someone on the net is an exercise in knowing one of their personas, the same as it is knowing them where they work, or whatever. It is a spurious argument that knowing who they are offers any particular value to their opinion unless they are an expert in their field like Mike is (which of course neither Whale or the other great whiners about real names – journos – never are).
However opinion is opinion and it makes bugger all difference who writes it – it is what it says that is important. You can always tell someone who writes something useful even if you disagree with it. It forces you to think
I suspect that what really gets him is the latter point. If you have nothing meaningful to say, then poor opinion like his invariably is gets treated as being crap regardless if it is a psuedo or “real name”. So he clings to the “outing” he was so irritated about 5 years ago just as he clings to his pseudonymous persona….
Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release
Could be at that. Just checked memory use and it’s using close to 300MB and I thought it was bad when it was using ~100MB. The reason why I didn’t keep using Chrome, even though I liked it, was because Google won’t allow it to block ads from Google (Using AdBlock) but is quite happy for it to block everyone else’s.
I don’t block ads* apart from malware so that isn’t an issue.
* Actually there are a few ad site that I block by IP – but that is because their ads irriate the hell out of me. I see that we picked one of those up this morning – the jiggling dialog style. I’ll have to tell scoop that the company making it is not to use our site again.
Something happened when I just posted my comment to Return to Planet Key – I got an error message . Eventually I refreshed and the comment was posted, but I couldn’t edit (minor capitalisation typo).
In Parliament, Grant Robertson has just asked the “Dotcom” questions to the Police Minister that were suggested on this very blog, on Tuesday and Wednesday.
But she wasn’t there (Brownlee stood in) and nor was Key. They were there on Tuesday and Wednesday. Too late now.
That’s Labour’s incompetence in a nutshell. If there’s nobody there who can think of this stuff for themselves, why don’t they just have somebody standing by at lunchtime, and we’ll tell them the questions to ask, before 2 pm. No charge for the first ones used – after that, 10% of the MPs’ salary. It’s not like they’re earning it.
Hear ye!Hear ye! Apparently Commanderkey is announcing,possibly to the world, of his intention to send four SAS personnell to Afghanistan to obtain information on who is responsible for the recent attacks on NZ soldiers. What does SAS stand for? Will not someone see them coming now? Apparently, they will do nothing themselves,but share their info with somebody else. Who?Possibly an infiltrator in the Afghanistan Force. But, that’s alright,apparently this is not a revenge mission.Maybe he just wants an apology and then everything will be ok buddy.
Hope said personnell are good at their jobs and can stay safe, or stupidkey could have some blood on his hands.
ps key is an idiot!
Key could get Whalespew and three other gungho volunteers from that vile blog to go and give the “ragheads” what they deserve. I’d contribute a month’s salary on successful completion of the mission.
s construction of a new private prison began in south Auckland today, ONE News can reveal the scale of the Government’s controversial deal.
The prison, located in the suburb of Wiri, had a sod-turning ceremony today but ONE News understands there are hundreds of prison beds lying empty in jails across New Zealand.
And Serco, the overseas company which will manage the new 960-bed facility, has confirmed it will be paid for 100% occupancy of the prison even if beds remain empty.
Oops, it seems that the government hiring the private sector just results in the private sector getting government guaranteed profits while not actually saving us money.
“Anne Tolley must, by law, table the contract between Corrections and the Serco-led consortium that will build and operate Wiri. I challenge her to do so before the House rises next Thursday, rather than drop its details during a parliamentary recess, which I am sure is her plan”, Labour’s Justice spokesperson Charles Chauvel, said.
“Serco told the London Stock Exchange earlier this month that it expected revenues of £15 million (NZ$29 million) per annum from the operation of the prison, and £2 million from the period before the prison even opens. The LSE has more information than the New Zealand public about what the taxpayer will pay under the arrangement.
Other: Gunpowder Plot Iran-Contra
Anything ever done by an intelligence service.
All the GWBush wars – e.g. yellowcake, “smoking gun”, yadda yadda
Gulf of Tonkin.
I think that, to be labelled a conspiracy, it has to be more than just a coverup after the event. I’d label Hillsborough, Erebus, and Bloody Sunday as coverups, for example.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Burning of the Reichstag are more deserving of being called conspiracies, as they were both planned in advance. The destruction of the USS Maine in Havana was possibly a false flag operation, which maybe qualifies.
I think the biggest conspiracy theory of all is the spreading of theories about Bilderberg, the Illuminati, Zionist one world government etc. All these have the effect of causing despair in people because if something is done behind the scenes by almost omnipotent forces, what can be done about it? On the other hand, anyone who analyses capitalism knows broadly what our ruling class will do and what needs to be done to stop it. Of course, this requires a lot more than watching youtube. You have to get off your ass and mobilise for a start. It’s not easy.
Yeah, there is an instinctive distinction between a plain “coverup” and a full conspiracy. But then the coverup can be an extensive and systemic conspiracy, e.g. Dreyfus.
The trouble is that a lot of the stuff that happens in the world isn’t anyone’s master plan, most of the time it’s an improvised response to a changing situation which folk then quietly work around. ISTR that the Nazis mounted a real “false flag” operation in 1939, staging an attack on their own border posts by pretend-Polish soldiers.
Watergate definitely counted as a conspiracy, but then it was another programme that evolved into illegal activities beyond par.
As an aside, the most reasonable explanation I read for the USS Maine was that it was a coal bunker fire that had heat conducted through the metal structure to an ammunition bunker. But then it was certainly perverted and transformed into a casus belli.
God bless the NZ SAS and their Friends in combat and those they are protecting.
It’s possible, they are trying.
In the name of peacefull coexistence and life I bless them.
It was super ceded by Hegel’s Phenomenology of Spirit. The world and human civilization were the material expression of Spirit/Idea.
Then Marx came along and took the next logical step removing the Spirit/Idea part for an efficiency gain. All that there is, is material, and man is God.
Two points:
If the universe is a cold meaningless place, then the warmth and meaning of people is much more important.
And asserting that anyone’s blessing is worth sweet FA is a much stronger religious assertion than a quick blessing by someone who’s not entirely sure it will have an effect.
You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.
Er, nope. That doesn’t follow at all.
That only makes sense if a god is the only thing that could prevent a universe being ‘indifferent, cold, and meaningless’; and I can’t think of any reason why that might be, or any reason why an atheist would believe it. It’s pants pretty much.
You are the one who has suggested that god is a necessary condition for ‘meaning’ (and so on), in the universe. I said that has not been shown to be the case. You haven’t established that.
How does it follow from from what I said, that I should have ‘bagged’ whatever it is you think that theologians have over philosphers?
Short answer, it doesn’t. Typical slippery question begging from the theologician camp.
Explain to me why god is necessary for the things you claim.
You’ll need to define those things first, (the opposites of ‘indifferent, cold, meaningless’) and as you do so, be careful that that what you are describing are not subjective experiences of the universe by sentient beings. Because if that’s the case, then what’s needed for those things to exist is sentient beings, not necessarily gods.
Whereas God believers are stuck with “faith” and questions like “If God is so freaking loving and all powerful why are there little children who have had their feet and hands blown off by mines disguised as children’s toys?”
Meaning is a subjective thing k-p. In the western way of looking at it at least.
Sticking with that angle, meaning is what people find. It’s how they perceive, explain, experience.
You are not going to find it on the outside, it must be active, and provided by yourself. And it won’t be universal. One person’s experience of the universe will, of necessity, be different to everyone else’s, so it’s cray cray to expect their meanings to be the same, and that’s ok.
Or to take a more eastern angle, we are ourselves just ‘expressions of the universe’.
I’m the universe being me, just as my chair is the universe being a chair.
Why? To what end?
Ends in themselves, strip away the ego, and just let the universe be the things it is. Relish that and savour it. Be the universe observing itself.
Both those angles are saying the same thing by the way.
Only selected stakeholders are getting a say in this while the general public will get a couple of weeks to comment at the end. The private insurers must be drooling in anticipation. Lean on your MP to open up the submissions?
The right wingers took a big hit though. One of their top players had to quit after saying if gay marriage is permissible why not bestiality?
I think he has got a good point – its the Slippery Slope argument. But he went down in a hail of bullets from the media and opponents, his argument dismissed as “ridiculous” or “homophobic” whatever the fuck that is suppose to mean. 🙄
See there you go – now YOU are deny rights to people.
So obviously you dont think individual rights are absolute.
And neither do I.
Basically you’re pushing rational contract theory – the same one that is the foundation for neo classical economics actually – rational individual free agents entering contracts with each other. And look where that has got us, haha.
So back to marriage. Consent is NECESSARY, but it is not SUFFICIENT. Is love necessary let alone sufficient? No, after all it can be faked.
But it is necessary but not sufficient that the two agents be of the opposite sex, there are physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement that is and must be acknowledged in the idea of marriage.
No, you presented a counter example and I said okay, that would involve a conflict of interests, I’ll give you that one. But there is no conflict of interests between two unrelated men marrying, any mor that between an unrelated man and woman.
Any union between two people involves “physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement”. Why does gender need to be singled out?
If your relationship does not have those unique elements of one based on consent, you don’t qualify for marriage.
If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.
Pretending that “gender doesnt matter” will destroy the meaning of marriage.
Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that, but of course once they got it, they then wanted more.
Wow! Have you ever considered ringing a talkback station?
“Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.”
If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.
No.
Marriage is a legal recognition of a relationship between people that, in many instances, is more intimate than most familial bonds.
It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.
Love is a mutual emotion. As far as I can see, nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”. That would be against the entire concept of marriage. Both parties at the ceremony say “I do”, not one party saying “I’ll take that one”. But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.
Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.
If you want soppy love quotes, love is when you’re prepared to share the deepest, darkest, worst thing about yourself to another person, and it doesn’t matter to them.
Come on KP – you can’t be serious.
If that sign was at a gay marriage protest, then ‘who I love’ is referring to their partner…not their Grandma.
If a pub has a sign outside saying ‘smoking section’…that does not mean you can pull out a glass pipe and start smoking crack – it is referring to cigarettes/tobacco.
Kiwi_prometheus
If you wish to have sex with animals, or even confine this to one animal, go for it. I really don’t care either way. I just hope it’s a carnivore with large teeth.
The only essential difference I see among people is that some want a better world for themselves and others want a better world for society as a whole. This has nothing to do with gender.
Why has it failed? Because capitalism is a mode of production for profit; and profitability is in secular and terminal decline, in Graeber’s view. Graeber says there are three claims that capitalism makes to justify it as a progressive mode of social organisation: it fosters scientific and technological growth; second, it increases overall prosperity; and third, it creates a more secure and democratic world. But it increasingly fails to deliver on all three: “we can feel especially confident that none of this will happen within the framework of contemporary capitalism or any form of capitalism”.
Emphasis mine:
The drive for profit and accumulation must result in advancement in technology being curtailed as capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares. To prop up profit essential services are being cut.
Conflating capitalism and democracy is what right wingers do.
Capitalism and democracy chaff. But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!
“capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares”
Its not about Capitalism doing this. It’s democracy which can – re ozone depletion and solution.
But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!
Really? Did you not notice the increasing poverty over the last 30 years? The quarter of a million children in hardship? The majority of the people aren’t getting a good deal. In fact, they’re being shafted so as to prop up the 1% profits.
Its not about Capitalism doing this.
No, it’s about capitalism preventing it. That’s why NACT keep saying that we need to balance between the economy and the environment means.
As an addendum to that one have this one: Of Flying Cars
Americans do not like to think of themselves as a nation of bureaucrats—quite the opposite—but the moment we stop imagining bureaucracy as a phenomenon limited to government offices, it becomes obvious that this is precisely what we have become.
And that most definitely applies to NZ as well. Contrary to what most people seem to believe about the free-market the bureaucrats have taken over.
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Buzz from the Beehive Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones relishes spatting and eagerly takes issue with environmentalists who criticise his enthusiasm for resource development. He relishes helping the fishing industry too. And so today, while the media are making much of the latest culling in the public service to ...
Having written, taught and worked for the US government on issues involving unconventional warfare and terrorism for 30-odd years, two things irritate me the most when the subject is discussed in public. The first is the Johnny-come-lately academics-turned-media commentators who … Continue reading → ...
Eric Crampton writes – Kainga Ora is the government’s house building agency. It’s been building a lot of social housing. Kainga Ora has its own (but independent) consenting authority, Consentium. It’s a neat idea. Rather than have to deal with building consents across each different territorial authority, Kainga Ora ...
Muriel Newman writes – The Coalition Government says it is moving with speed to deliver campaign promises and reverse the damage done by Labour. One of their key commitments is to “defend the principle that New Zealanders are equal before the law.” To achieve this, they have pledged they “will not advance ...
Chris Trotter writes – The absence of anything resembling a fightback from the public servants currently losing their jobs is interesting. State-sector workers’ collective fatalism in the face of Coalition cutbacks indicates a surprisingly broad acceptance of impermanence in the workplace. Fifty years ago, lay-offs in the thousands ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
The Government must commit to the Maitai School building project for students with high and complex needs, to ensure disabled students from the top of the South Island have somewhere to learn. ...
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey and his Government colleagues have made a meal of their mental health commitments, showing how flimsy their efforts to champion the issue truly are, says Labour Mental Health spokesperson Ingrid Leary. ...
Māori are yet to see anything from this Government except cuts, reversals and taking our people backwards, Māori Development spokesperson Willie Jackson said. ...
The Coalition Government’s refusal to commit to ongoing funding for social housing is seeing the sector pull back on developments and families watch their dreams of securing a home fade away, says Labour Housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today paid tribute to Singapore’s outgoing Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. Meeting in Singapore today immediately before Prime Minister Lee announced he was stepping down, Prime Minister Luxon warmly acknowledged his counterpart’s almost twenty years as leader, and the enduring legacy he has left for Singapore and South East ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong. While in Singapore as part of his visit to South East Asia this week, Prime Minister Luxon also met with Singapore President Tharman Shanmugaratnam and will meet with Deputy Prime Minister Lawrence Wong. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has made further appointments to the Board of Antarctica New Zealand as part of a continued effort to ensure the Scott Base Redevelopment project is delivered in a cost-effective and efficient manner. The Minister has appointed Neville Harris as a new member of the Board. Mr ...
Finance Minister Nicola Willis will travel to the United States on Tuesday to attend a meeting of the Five Finance Ministers group, with counterparts from Australia, the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom. “I am looking forward to meeting with our Five Finance partners on how we can work ...
The coalition Government has today announced purrfect and pawsitive changes to the Residential Tenancies Act to give tenants with pets greater choice when looking for a rental property, says Housing Minister Chris Bishop. “Pets are important members of many Kiwi families. It’s estimated that around 64 per cent of New ...
State Highway 1 (SH1) through Wellington City is heavily congested at peak times and while planning continues on the duplicate Mt Victoria Tunnel and Basin Reserve project, the Government has also asked NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) to consider and provide advice on a Long Tunnel option, Transport Minister Simeon Brown ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Foreign Minister Winston Peters have condemned Iran’s shocking and illegal strikes against Israel. “These attacks are a major challenge to peace and stability in a region already under enormous pressure," Mr Luxon says. "We are deeply concerned that miscalculation on any side could ...
Hundreds of people in little over a week have turned out in Northland to hear Regional Development Minister Shane Jones speak about plans for boosting the regional economy through infrastructure. About 200 people from the infrastructure and associated sectors attended an event headlined by Mr Jones in Whangarei today. Last ...
Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board. “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti. “I have asked her to ...
The NZ Transport Agency (NZTA) has signalled their proposed delivery approach for the Government’s 15 Roads of National Significance (RoNS), with the release of the State Highway Investment Proposal (SHIP) today, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Boosting economic growth and productivity is a key part of the Government’s plan to ...
New Zealand is renewing its connections with a world facing urgent challenges by pursuing an active, energetic foreign policy, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “Our country faces the most unstable global environment in decades,” Mr Peters says at the conclusion of two weeks of engagements in Egypt, Europe and the United States. “We cannot afford to sit back in splendid ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has announced the Australian Governor-General, His Excellency General The Honourable David Hurley and his wife Her Excellency Mrs Linda Hurley, will make a State visit to New Zealand from Tuesday 16 April to Thursday 18 April. The visit reciprocates the State visit of former Governor-General Dame Patsy Reddy ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour has announced that Medsafe has approved 11 cold and flu medicines containing pseudoephedrine. Pharmaceutical suppliers have indicated they may be able to supply the first products in June. “This is much earlier than the original expectation of medicines being available by 2025. The Government recognised ...
New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor in Honiara Solomon Islands’ incumbent prime minister Manasseh Sogavare has been re-elected in the East Choiseul constituency. It is the opening move in the political chess match to form the country’s next government. Returning officer Christopher Makoni made the declaration late last night after ...
Headline: The moment of friction. – 36th Parallel Assessments In strategic studies “friction” is a term that it is used to describe the moment when military action encounters adversary resistance. “Friction” is one of four (along with an unofficial fifth) “F’s” in military strategy, which includes force (kinetic mass), ...
The Fast-track Bill, if passed, would allow three Ministers, unchallenged and unchecked, to approve the immediate extraction and exhaustion of one-off resources. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne iamharin/Shutterstock For many people, the term “bulk billed” refers to a GP visit they don’t have to pay ...
Emmas Hislop, Sidnam and Wehipeihana discuss what’s in a name. Emma Sidnam: Hello Emmas! Thank you so much for agreeing to do this with me. My first question for you is related to what’s been on my mind for a while. It’s very important. You see we’ve recently had some ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Sievers, Research Fellow, Global Wetlands Project, Australia Rivers Institute, Griffith University Chris Brown Humans love the coast. But we love it to death, so much so we’ve destroyed valuable coastal habitat – in the case of some types of habitat, ...
Josh Thomson on the 80s milk ad jingle he can’t stop singing, the beauty of The Simpsons, why Jersey Shore is as good as Shakespeare and more. For someone who spends a lot of time on our screens, popping up in everything from 7 Days to Taskmaster, Educators to Good ...
In apparent defiance of the Biden administration, the Netanyahu government has now initiated missile strikes against Iran. Last Saturday night (Sunday morning in New Zealand) Iran launched more than 300 drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles against Israeli military targets. With the assistance of US, UK and possibly French forces, ...
Māori representation brings a perspective that encompasses not only the interests of Māori communities but also a broader, holistic approach to environmental stewardship and community well-being, principles deeply embedded in Te Ao Māori (the Māori ...
This week in Auckland, a group of young people took over the microphone at a ministerial press conference, to explain why they oppose the Fast-Track Approvals Bill. One young woman said, ‘We’re here because we love Aotearoa New Zealand. We want to raise our children in an environment that’s thriving, ...
The summer was wonderful. Evie was wonderful, too; finally a teenager, finally worthy of long, hot days. She shaved her legs for the first time and bought cut-off shorts from the op-shop that made them look long. She got a Warehouse singlet so tight on her new shape that her ...
When Thomas James was on his solo camp as part of Outward Bound, the keen outdoorsman didn’t find it too challenging, as others often do. In what might just be the perfect illustration of his character, he saw it as a great opportunity to solve a few problems. “I thought, ...
From the unstable and drippy to the hi-tech and pretty, here’s our ranking of all the tunnels you can drive through in this country. The first tunnel seems to have been built in 2200BC in Babylonia, kicking off a global phenomenon for digging holes in order to get places more ...
Lucinda Bennett on the art of being greedy but resourceful. This is an excerpt from our weekly food newsletter, The Boil Up. When I picture the market, it is always this time of year. Crisp air, dripping nose, counting coins with cold fingers. Sunlight pale, filtered through specks of dew still ...
Zoë Colling’s favourite piece in the ‘That’s So Last Century’ collection is a lubrication chart for a sewing machine from the ’60s. It’s about the size of a postcard, and carefully maintained. “I like it that this piece of ephemera highlights that manual and technical side of the skill involved ...
Kia Ora Gaza A passionate haka reverberated through Auckland International Airport as a medical team of three New Zealand doctors received an emotional farewell from a big crowd of supporters before flying to Turkey to join the international Freedom Flotilla to Gaza. The doctors, who left Auckland yesterday, hope to ...
With submissions closing today, Macassey-Pickard says groups around the country have been supporting a huge range of people to make their submissions. ...
Our response to the new legislation is informed by targeted conversations with practitioners working in the system and through an implementation lens. ...
The new ‘Fast-track Approvals Bill’ would give just three Ministers the power to approve or deny development projects. They would avoid the usual checks and balances that are in place to protect rivers, land, the ocean, and communities. ...
COMMENTARY:By Eugene Doyle Helen Clark, how I miss you. The former New Zealand Prime Minister — the safest pair of hands this country has had in living memory — gave a masterclass on the importance of maintaining an independent foreign policy when she spoke at an AUKUS symposium held ...
The government's released the list of organisations provided with information on how to apply - just hours before public submissions on the bill close. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Milton Speer, Visiting Fellow, School of Mathematical and Physical Sciences, University of Technology Sydney Before climate change really got going, eastern Australia’s flash floods tended to concentrate on our coastal regions, east of the Great Dividing Range. But that’s changing. Now ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Elizabeth Finkel, Vice-Chancellor’s Fellow, La Trobe University Sia Duff / South Australian Museum In February, the South Australian Museum “re-imagined” itself. In the face of rising costs and inadequate government funds, CEO David Gaimster, who took the reins last June, declared ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alan Pearce, Professor, School of Allied Heath, Human Services & Sport, La Trobe University, La Trobe University This week, Collingwood AFL player Nathan Murphy announced his retirement, brought on by his concussion history and ongoing issues. The 24-year-old’s seemingly sudden retirement, ...
The Mental Health Foundation provides support and resources for those facing the loss of their job, so it’s wrong in the very week the Government adds another 1000 jobs to its tally of cuts, that this is happening. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexander Howard, Senior Lecturer, Discipline of English and Writing, University of Sydney Daniel Boud/Sydney Theatre Company Decay, terror, revulsion. These are three of the central themes of Thomas Bernhard’s rarely performed play The President. The Austrian is one of the greatest ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says threats by ministers Shane Jones and David Seymour to reform or close down the Waitangi Tribunal were “ill-considered”, as legal experts say the ministers may have breached Cabinet Manual conventions. “I think those comments are ill-considered and we expect all ministers to actually exercise good ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ye In (Jane) Hwang, Postdoctoral Research Associate at School of Population Health, UNSW Sydney Shutterstock You’d be hard pressed to find any aspect of daily life that doesn’t require some form of digital literacy. We need only to look back ten ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rob Newton, Professor of Exercise Medicine, Edith Cowan University Pexels/RDNE stock project You’re not in your 20s or 30s anymore and you know regular health checks are important. So you go to your GP. During the appointment they measure your waist. ...
A new poem by Evangeline Riddiford Graham. Mitochondrial Problem I. It was long drive to Kansas for the man and his dog but you have to understand he said She doesn’t fly. Which calls to mind not carsick shitting barking or whining but a dog who chooses not to as ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Hemingway’s Goblet by Dermot Ross (Mary Egan Publishing, $38)Hot off the press, this debut ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Laura Wajnryb McDonald, PhD candidate in Criminology, University of Sydney Less than 24 hours after Ashlee Good was murdered in Bondi Junction, her family released a statement requesting the media take down photographs they had reproduced of Ashlee and her family without ...
Chief executive Shaun Robinson said it has not had any government funding cut, but government-funded contracts have not kept pace with rising costs. ...
The Ministry of Health has delayed the release of its evidence brief on the safety, reversibility and mental health and wellbeing outcomes for puberty blockers. While we wait, Julia de Bres speaks to those with firsthand experience. Best practice gender-affirming healthcare is based on trans people’s self-determination and agency. The ...
Barcelona’s city streets have gone from traffic-clogged to pedestrian-friendly. How? Superblocks. Ellen Rykers explains. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week I read a great interview with renowned urbanist Janette Sadik-Khan by The Spinoff’s Wellington editor Joel MacManus: “You can reimagine streets, ...
Student groups ‘Climate Action VUW’, Schools Strike 4 Climate and VUWSA will be on the street in Wellington today, the last day for submissions on the Fast-track Approvals Bill, with a message that the fight against the Government’s ‘War on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sofia Ammassari, Research Fellow, Griffith University Since 2014, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s popularity has grown exponentially – and so has the formidable organisational machine of his Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP). These two factors will be key to delivering the BJP a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brendon Hyndman, Associate Professor of Education (Adjunct) & Senior Manager (BCE), Charles Sturt University During COVID almost all Australian students and their families experienced online learning. But while schools have long since gone back to in-person teaching, online learning has not gone ...
Yes, they’re better for the environment. No, that’s not a good enough reason for me to use them. Once every 26 days or so, my period arrives, and if struck by an act of God, I am caught red-crotched without products. How, after 17 years of this, do I still ...
“It will cause significant harm to our environment and communities. It is completely at odds with New Zealanders’ relationship with nature and our need for a low-carbon, sustainable economic future." ...
The Chair of the National Maori Authority, Matthew Tukaki, has warned a Parliamentary Select Committee that fast-tracking legislation is a perilous practice that undermines the core tenets of democracy, transparency, and accountability. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Tenbensel, Associate Professor, Health Policy, University of Auckland, Waipapa Taumata Rau Getty Images Since coming into power, the coalition government has adopted a simple but shrewd see-how-fast-we-can-move political strategy. However, in the health sector this need for speed entails ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anastasia Hronis, Clinical Psychologist, University of Technology Sydney Darya Sannikova/Pexels Whether you’re watching TV, attending a footy game, or eating a meal at your local pub, gambling is hard to escape. Although the rise of gambling is not unique to Australia, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mark Wong, Forrest Fellow, School of Biological Sciences, The University of Western Australia Have you ever wondered if there are more insects out at night than during the day? We set out to answer this question by combing through the scientific ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Carol T Kulik, Research Professor, University of South Australia IR Stone/Shutterstock In Australia, it’s not the done thing to know – let alone ask – what our colleagues are paid. Yet, it’s easy to see how pay transparency can make pay ...
The Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE) is sounding a warning to migrants, that running foul of the law may see them leaving the country prematurely. ...
The government’s plan to get 50,000 people off jobseeker support by 2030 has had a rocky start, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Beneficiary numbers are up – and so are ...
Raglan Roast is a staple of Wellington coffee culture. But with five branches across the capital, which one is the best? I am a die-hard Raglan Roast fan. It’s consistently the most affordable cafe in Wellington, and one of the only places you can get a coffee after 3pm. So, ...
Residents of University of Auckland halls are being urged to withhold their accommodation fees from May 1, in a bid to force the university to take student concerns over rent hikes seriously.The University of Auckland is facing a strike from students over the cost of on-campus accommodation. The Students ...
New Zealand and the Philippines have signed a new maritime security agreement and stated their concerns over activity in the South China Sea, as Chinese vessels continue to flout international law. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Philippines President Ferdinand “Bongbong” Marcos committed to signing a Mutual Logistics Supporting Arrangement by ...
The thousands of government “back-office” job cuts are causing widespread pain in the capital city. In today’s episode of The Detail, we speak to three journalists and a think tank researcher, looking at the larger picture around the cuts and what effect it will have on Wellington, a city that’s ...
Opinion: The famed American architect and urban designer Daniel Burnham once said, “Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men’s blood!” Burnham wouldn’t have been referring to the transport plans in Aotearoa New Zealand over the past five years; projects so big they hadn’t the credibility to ...
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I had to leave a rather long note about when and how we moderate on legal issues and public interest because Bob (at least) clearly doesn’t understand it.
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-19092012/#comment-523421
You’d think that after all of these years since Lange vs Atkinson that people will have caught up with the arguments that the court of appeal and privy council ruled on.
Hi Lyn. I sent through e-mail address.
Hi Lyn. Loaded Chrome, set up an e-mail addr. and forwarded to you.
Kind Regards
Try clapping your hands 110 times within 13 secs. That’s how fast the floors were pulverized. It went so fast, they couldn’t even hit eachother. The floors were pulverized to dust in mid-air.
The Toronto hearings condensed for those of you interested to hear what scientists, Architects and engineers have to say about the events of 9/11
Fuck man, give it up. No one believes your stupid conspiracy theories.
No. All your comment means is that YOU don’t.
So, Mary Mary quite contrary can you explain why 9/11 truth groups are showing ever increasing numbers of members ?
Without commenting on the merits of this particular instance, it seems fairly logical that the further away we get from an event, the more plausible different theories about it are. Fewer people have direct knowledge, primary sources start to fade … see also: Nazca Plateau, Jack the Ripper, the moon landings.
That’s a bit harsh contrarian.
Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK?
“can you explain why 9/11 truth groups are showing ever increasing numbers of members?”
Argumentum ad populum. It is irrelevant how many people believe it.
“Do you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK?”
Of course
I thought you were smarter than that but it’s probably just an age thing.
Maybe you’re right though and human’s don’t ever conspire
Really? JFK conspiracy theories?
Hmmm, don’t recall saying that human’s don’t ever conspire
I am healthily skeptical about 9/11 particularly building 7 and the Pentagon that do not appear to have been hit by planes and the suspicious lack of publicly available photos of wreckage from flight 93.
This stuff should be pursued to the end, just as one Augusto Pinochet was, because it is about how “civilized” societies function. The WWII Polish Katyn forest executions by Soviet forces were known about by the allies from the start but they only ’fessed up this year! Do those in charge do horrible things to the people? I can sense a few nods from readers here… yes they bloody do, so why not sections of the US spook/corporate brigade.
At one stage Lprent suggested if interest in this topic was going to continue then maybe a dedicated thread could be set up. This could be worth looking at, so the disinterested or general reader could avoid. But that is easy for me to say as I do not run the blog!
Perhaps instead a simple links hub could be facilitated.
Somewhere that links only are posted into either a Truther/Denier ‘twin tables’ set up that people can freely investigate without the judgement and the vitriol that usually accompanies them.
Just a thought.
try entering “flight 93 wreckage” in google. It’s not hard. You’ll be amazed – pictures of plane bits in a deep hole in a field!
Good on ya, TC. However, the best response is probably the rolling eyes or taking this ever useful advice: DNFTT. Still, you managed to get one fool to throw in a bizarro world link to the JFK shooting, so well done for that!
ps. Freedom, I’m not saying the GFC and 9/11 fantasies are definitely linked, but the answer to your question might be found here.
TC, Fuck man should be Fuck woman.
TRP, i am not going to get into a 911 debate here as face to face communication is the only successful method of helping someone break through the cognitive dissonance that is strangling the world. If you choose to continue ignoring the laws of physics and the mind-buggeringly huge amount of data that obliterates every aspect of the official story there is little that a hundred hours of online bickering will achieve.
People either wake up or they don’t. I stopped wasting my time fighting it online last year. instead i take every opportunity that arises in the real world to engage, assist and educate anyone who shows the telltale signs of 911 ignorance. I can honestly say i have personally witnessed the ‘awakening’ of over a hundred people in that time and it is getting easier every single time.
So either people have a growing awareness of the issue or i am just an incredibly persuasive individual who gets rational adults to believe in what you call fantasies.
have a pleasant day
Cheers to you, too, freedom. I’m pretty much at the same level of frustration as yourself and most of the time I ignore the madness of the 9/11 truth deniers. But, this is a left wing site and occasionally I rise to the bait that the righties throw. I know I should really take my own advice and stop feeding the trolls, but occasionally its worthwhile anyway, just for conversations such as this.
Ultimately, the best defence against the mis-named truthers is the truth. And the complete lack of any factual comfirmation of an alternative conspiracy to the successful AQ led attack on the WTC speaks volumes.
11 years, 8 days. Still no evidence. Occam’s razor remains as sharp as ever.
I like to remind truthers that the Bush government was so freaking inept at everything else it tried but somehow has pulled of the most masterful of conspiracies without there ever being a whistle blower?
which is a good point.
Ok – normally i dont join in this argument, because it has no end – ever.
however – im still of the opinion that…
“there are many conspiracies about 9/11 – the US govt’s is one of them”. Theres just too much stuff that doesnt add up in ANY given explanation.
I know that puts me in a bit of a stasis/fence sitting position – but i can live with that
I don’t have an opinion either way, but I do like to watch the argument sometimes and how illogic pops up on both sides.
For instance, the idea that the Bush administration is so inept they couldn’t have pulled this off, plus the argument that no-one has ever spoken out about the conspiracy, remind me of the commentary in the days following 11/9 where people couldn’t believe that Arabs were capable of planning and carrying out such an attack.
Not Arabs, torture trained maniacs, they exist everywhere in case anyone was wondering
pointers for a better round of golf (or shall i find another course)?
My heart is beating slow @ the mo, L8r maybe.
I need a golf club that can take it , not an easy ask.
Sure Berny, but in the days after 11/9 that’s not what people were talking about. They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
true, fear mongering, Nut Jobs do it every day
“lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians”
Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull of?
“lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians”
Because it was an extremely simple plan that anyone could pull off?
So you’re a life supporter weka, we are not alone in this world.
Easy in that ‘lowly Arabs’ are just as adept as anyone else
Just another prohibitive culture trying to survive the modern day human condition.
= Every country on the planet.
They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
Yes. That’s how propaganda works.
They struggled to get their head around how the lowly Arabs could pull that off against the mighty USians.
“Yes. That’s how propaganda works.”
True, but I think it was also the US people just not being that aware of the rest of the world and having a retarded view of Middle Eastern countries.
Anyway, my original point, somewhere, such as it was, was that saying that there is no conspiracy because Bush is an idiot is akin to saying Al Qaeda weren’t smart enough to pull off the attacks. Neither argument makes logical sense. (and yes, I know, logic in this debate, a vain hope).
but the logic falls down because it’s a flse equivalence.
The controlled demolition theory calls for an extremely complicated plan that hasn’t been put forward. ie, we know that it must have been extremely complicated, and we have had no suggestion of how they might have carried it out. We also know that the alleged planners have a track record of fucking much simpler things up.
The terrorist attack theory is highly detailed; there are loads of very good analytical and investigative books, including interviews with the planners, timelines, historical threads, the whole gambit. It’s also a much simpler explanation of events, needing much less planning, and the alleged planners had the experience to do it.
So not really buying the equivalence angle.
you have captivating technique your self
How many options do I have?
I’ve lived in pain my whole life, captivating?Engineered?UNPaidFor?
I should change my handle to BloodyOrphan, maybe that’d help
Maybe they just pretend to agree so they can escape your explanations, freedom.
I’ve got some doubts about what happened with building 7, but haven’t seen anything yet which comes close to making me think about why the other two towers collapsed. As for the wreckage in the forest – when planes hit vertically or near vertically, they tend to excavate deep holes for themselves. Bf 109s going into English soil sometimes managed to get surprisingly deep.
As for the Pentagon – the plane flew over the top of a friend’s car just before it hit. His wife was driving and he is an American scientist, so we’re probably trying to suppress something. Yawn.
Trav yeah trav60,000 tons of material coming down 14ft gaining momentum then gathering in another 70 floors at 2,000 tons each I think your brains have been pulverized by blinkered thinking.
As for your thermite theory its just a theory thermite could easily be made from the aluminium joinery and the aluminium lining of the gibboard (Dry wall )rubbing together under huge forces 500,000 tons with the momentum building gathering up as the building crashes down the amount of energy and destruction would be in the 100,s of millions of tons equivalent in energy dissipated which could quite easily produce pockets of nano thermite.
For those of you wanting to learn more about what Mike E is talking about here is an excellent analysis of the collapse of the South tower and why there is no pile driver (Which would be against the laws of physics as the top of the building would find the path of least resistance) from Greame McQueen. called waiting for the Wham!
And Mike E you might take your blinkers off for about an hour and watch the presentation too and the same goes for McFlock
Sorry both towers. I saw it in 2008 and listening to it again I remember better.
Without seeing the presentation cause it’s been removed, there could’ve been a number of factors affecting the actual collapse ….
Initial Impact ?
Wind
Interior weight redistribution
Pure random office weight distribution
And those poor people of course.
From the footage I’ve seen, admittedly vague these days, it looked pretty natural to me, if an airplane colliding with a building can be described as natural.
Airplane fuel burns hot enough to melt Steel.
There’s another possible “Moving Mass”
http://www.911blogger.com/news/2008-05-26/graeme-macqueen-3192008-university-waterloo I just watched the entire presentation here
So does it cover the above? , I should add water weighs 1kg per litre, alot of pipe up there.
A paranoid obsessive accusing others of wearing blinkers is like bigots complaining that other people should tolerate their beliefs.
i have to respond to that mike, and i will do so with a quick question
Care to explain how a steel I-beam that was identified as coming from above the point of impact was found embedded in a building 400+ m away from where it was originally riveted and welded into place?
The nonsensical statements that have no basis in science (or even bother with logic) such as that delivered from mike e above, are why i prefer to keep my 911 work on a face to face platform these days. People are far less willing to throw out bs when they have to sit there defending and or explaining their assertions that always end up contradicting or defeating their own statements.
I think you mean 400 feet not metres. A very different thing.
Its funny these conspiracy theorists seem to believe aliens have already landed and just about everything is a conspiracy just about all the theorists I know are unemployed or in low wage jobs I suppose its a form of escapism.
But these conspiracy theorists Don’t believe in Vaccinating their children either!
Another one was that the swine flu vaccination was going to wipe out your immune system.
My family has all got the swine flu jab and you couldn’t meet a healthier bunch of people.
I see their kids ( the ones who haven’t immunised their children )and most of them are anaemic
and physically small Always off school sick with something wrong!
Funny, most people I know who are donating their intelligence and time in search for 911 truth are university professors,scientists, successful architects, Engineers, fire fighters, lawyers, military personnel and Pilots.
Well Mike, I know some pretty high level business people, intelligent, educated and the like, and guess what, they ask questions too, because they are not stupid, and they don;t believe what is rolled out by TPTB , on all manor of subjects. Only a complete fool believes that corporations, war machines, intelligence industries, big oil, pharma, war on drugs, war on terror etc are there for your well being. Only a FOOL would not want to at least try to see if there is more going on, and a coward would deny it!
Questioning the party line, and looking for understadings is a responsibility we all should take on, sure that does not mean we will all agree etc, which is fine, but hey the conversations become much more interesting than rugby, beer and other house extensions, or isn’t so and so a bitch, and other irrelevant topics. making up so called conversation in NZ.
Which person makes the world a potentially worse place for everyone to live, now and in future, including for your kids, nieces, nephews or gandkids etc?
1: The person who seeks understandings and answers, and questions events which shape this world?
or
2: The person who accepts what they are told and never questions the version of what they are told is happening around them?
Simple question innit!
Comparing a building collapse to clapping your hands is idiotic.
no mcFlock it is simply an instructive and basic visualization tool that forces your consciousness to realize that one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times. It is the niggling reality of the situation that you are fighting and which causes you to react so predictably.
“one hundred and ten floors of steel and concrete can not fail and collapse to the ground faster than you can clap one hundred and ten times”
really? link please. i believe it is you that doesn’t understand physics then.
Fuckit, envelope physics time:
At 3 metres / floor, 110 floors = 330 metres in 13 seconds.
Average speed = 25 Metres per second. (about 90KpH).
G = 9.8M/s/s
After 13 seconds free-fall acceleration that = 147.4M/s (530KpH). It would have travelled 891.8 Metres. At 3M/floor that’s 297 times.
Average speed 68.6M/s or 247KpH.
Obviously this doesn’t include wind or concrete resistance, but in order to replicate the theoretical average frequency of floor destruction at freefall speeds, you would need to clap nearly 300 times in 13 seconds.
Obviously the law of gravity breaks the laws of physics.
Hahahah,
Let’s calculate something and exclude one of the most prominent qualities: that of concrete resistance.
The law of gravity obeys the three laws of Physics. If the law of gravity had been obeyed as well as the laws of physics the top which you claim acted as a sledge hammer would have found the path of least resistance.
You should really watch Greame McQueen’s presentation linked to above.
The laws of physics were obeyed.
There there C, calm down. Of course the laws of physics were obeyed. Nothing can break the laws of Physics. It is just that the official story can’t have happened unless 19 young Muslims could break them. In order to pulverise the buildings and allow them to come down into their own footprint someone had to have access to all three buildings and place explosives in them, s’all.
Only with a huge amount of extra energy could those buildings come down. Office fires and kerosene could not have done that.
Jet fuel =/= kerosene.
You realise that the plane itself is made of many elements with different melting points (like aluminium and magnesium) which would melt and burn before steel, adding to the ferocity of the fire, and that steel is significantly weakened in high temperatures
Secondly you have never explained when and how the explosives got into a building with 24 hour surveillance and bomb sniffing dogs and without alerting security or anyone else that worked there.
You also failed to address the fact that the it wasn’t the top few floors vs the rest of the building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.
I watched it this morning and personally believe it’s complete bollocks.
Trav, read this next bit very slowly …. the top of the building DID follow the path of least resistance. All laws, including Newton’s, which you claim weren’t, were followed to the letter.
Either you are right in which case there was no resistance all the way to the ground where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building indicating the destruction of the building by something other than the Sledgehammer Mike e is talking about or you’re wrong and the top bit rammed the bottom bit to smithereens breaking the laws of physics.
You can’t have it both ways. Your turn.
Well if what they say is true, then I’d be guessing building practices in the name of weight reduction for the primary cause then.
no-one has ever said there was “no resistance”, or course there was. But just not as much as you think there was. Your use of the words: “just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building” are clearly incorrect. The top clearly fell through at least 1 floor with little to no resistance.
The floor trusses in those 2 buildings were clearly the weak point. With the top 12 floors tipping and leaning to one side, all of the resulting force was being transferred through a smaller footprint, clearly more than was able to be withheld, leading to the structural failure. The floors were made of only 4 inch thick “lightweight” concrete.
To quote wikipedia: “While the buildings were designed to support enormous static loads, they provided little resistance to the moving mass of the sections above the floors where the collapses initiated. Structural systems respond very differently to static and dynamic loads, and since the motion of the falling portion began as a free fall through the height of at least one story (roughly three meters or 10 feet), the structure beneath them was unable to stop the collapses once they began. Indeed, a fall of only half a meter (about 20 inches) would have been enough to release the necessary energy to begin an unstoppable collapse”
and … “Once the collapse initiated, the mass of failing floors overwhelmed the floors below, causing a progressive series of floor failures which accelerated as the sequence progressed. Soon large portions of the perimeter columns and possibly the cores were left without any lateral support, causing them to fall laterally towards the outside pushed by the increasing pile of rubble. The result was the walls peeling off and separating away from the buildings by a large distance (about 500 feet in some cases), hitting other neighboring buildings. Some connections broke as the bolts snapped, leaving many panels randomly scattered. Significant parts of the naked cores (about 60 stories for the North Tower and 40 for the South Tower) remained standing for some seconds before they also collapsed themselves”
Anyway, you and i have had countless arguments about this topic and neither one of us is going to budge. I don’t even know why i bothered commenting on the topic again. The weight of evidence is on my side, not yours. so, as you most eloquently put it …. your turn.
I’d love to see a truther account one tenth as detailed as the various and numerous accounts that are to be found of the mainstream theory.
For example, I’d like to know how much ‘nano thermite’ would have been needed and where it was placed. Then we’d need a discussion that takes account of the nature of thermite, that it burns rather than explodes, so it usually requires aditional explosives to shift the cut steel.
Factor that into the images we have of the collapse and explain how it all happened, and whether it makes sens to do it that way.
The plan would have had to take account of the fact that several floors were severely damaged by the plane crashes and fires. How was this built into the pla? How did the wiring plans for the thermite and explosives build redundancy in to deal with this?
Is the controlled demolition theory explaining what we see, or is the controlled demolition account trying to force itself on to what is being observed?
But we never get offered any detail. After a decade, there is still no explanation of their account.
I want to know “How did the thermite get in there without anyone noticing”
agree! i’m especially interested in how all the tons and tons of explosives and thermite were wired into the building with kilometers of demolition cord, under the noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.
All the while being placed in exactly the correct place for a plain to hit the buildings and not damage said explosives rig. Then requiring someone to press the button to initiate the collapse while knowing 300 odd innocent firefighters were still inside the building with no change of escape.
to quote the Tui adds, yea right.
“e noses of tens of thousands of employees ….. without ANYONE noticing.”
and 24 hour surveillance, security guards…plus fucking bomb sniffing dogs to boot.
But don’t push the button right away, let it burn for while, having full confidence that when you push the button it will go. 🙄
The thermite? It was all added by Buzz Aldrin at the time of construction – just don’t say it to his face…
You are doing it again:
“where just seconds before there had been a huge solid and undamaged building ”
No, it wasn’t the top few floors vs a huge solid and undamaged building but the top few floors vs. the floor immediately below.
Why do you never address this?
Benny D is right but trav you are just repeating con job.
You don’t understand laws of physics tell me why it takes 1.2km to stop a1200tonne train going along tracks !
then tell me how you would stop 60,000 tonnes which is gaining momentum also fighting the effects of gravity stops .
The train isn’t gaining momentum and has only a mild gravitational drag!
Those buildings were built quickly cheaply using formally illegal methods until they conned NY City to go back to old methods using clip in prefabricated floor trusses !
Now you will find that the flooring systems in use today has to be bolted in with very expensive non sheer temp proof bolts!
They’ve learned from the mistakes!
I was pointing out that the speed of the towers was within the bounds highest possible speed with no resistance, i.e. freefall speed, and that therefore your “hands clapping” argument is batshit-stupid idiocy.
We might have some agreement, though – the towers fell at slower than freefall speed due to concrete being in the way.
What exactly are the three laws of physics?
Just for the record, this bloke can clap 12-13 times a second. So, clearly, it is possible to clap 110 times in 13 seconds, which probably negates whatever vague point Trav was trying to make. But no matter, it just makes the comparison entirely consistent with the rest of the truther claims, which are equally bogus.
I threw a burning piece of metal in the shape of a plane at a piece of concrete once and NOTHING HAPPENED!
9/11 WAS A LIE!
The loss must be phenomonal, conspiracy theories rob u of the ground you stand on, they do not answer loss.
What isn’t a conspiracy theory is that it has been found that GW Bush has been found to have lied to the American public in saying he wasn’t warned of an impending attack he was warned but didn’t take it seriously as he thought that no one would dare attack the US!
Those cats were talking about it in 99, problem was no one could fathom it.
and I’m just a cat off the street.
They created a lot of fear with that “engineered” approach.
You can see it in Afghanistan and other places right now
Bernie,
The first speaker is a lady by the name of Laurie van Auken. She was one of the people who fought for an investigation into what happened. She lost her husband on 9/11. As long as people like her want to fight for a new and independent investigation I’m with her
Fair enuf, in a civilised world that’s a good thing, power too them, but I think in this case the inuendo I speek of is all there is behind it, truely sorry for their loss, heartbreaking.
It was street level info from NZ.
Regardless of whether you thought the WTC was deliberately demolished or not, you have to admit, that it is rather strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.
Given that black boxes have been recovered in dense jungles, shark infested oceans and icy rivers, it would be pretty straightforward for them to be recovered in the rubble of a destroyed building or in the Pennsylvania countryside.
“strange for the all 4 airliners’ black boxes to vanish.”
They weren’t all destroyed.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_Black_Boxes ->
“The Flight 93 flight data recorders were recovered. The Flight 77 black boxes were also removed from the Pentagon, but one of them (the cockpit voice recorder) was too badly damaged to be used. The only boxes not to be recovered were from the World Trade Centre impacts ”
The World Trade Centre ones were destroyed – is that surprising given the extreme forces involved there?
Black boxes aren’t indestructible. They aren’t always recovered.
And these crashes were not normal – crazies at the steering wheel with the accelerator to the floor.
It’s like the old moon landing conspiracy nonsense:
“There are no stars in the background!” – because the sun light fades them out, the sky is black because there is no atmosphere on the moon otherwise it is just like we don’t see stars in the blue daytime sky.
And seriously, would someone go to all that trouble to fake a mooning landing and forget to paint the stars on the background? 🙄
The moon is a completely alien environment, what is experienced on Earth and taken for granted is turned upside down.
Stupid conspiracy nonsense.
That type of issue is why I remain a 9/11 skeptic Millsy, not a ‘Truther’, follow the evidence.
No plane appears to have hit the Pentagon or building seven so what did happen?
A govt., or sections of it, would not harm it’s own people? C’mon Pol Pot, Indonesia, Chile, Syria.
Building 7 was hit by a large chunk of one of the falling towers, TM. And while you’ll get no argument from me on America’s historical propensity to use its power extra-judicially, to do so against its own citizens on a mass scale has no modern precedent.
The wikipedia site has pretty common sense descriptions of the main theories, including the video of the Pentagon crash. The guts of it is, for me, that there is no credible alternative to the established facts. And the complete absence of human corroboration of the inside job is the clincher. No whistleblower, no stray email, no oh so human cock up.
It is what it is. A relatively simple plot, using a classic guerilla technique, modernised; multiple hits to maximise the chance of success. They succeeded because a highjacking with the intention of destroying the aircraft and all aboard was inconceivable. Security, till then, had been premised on the idea that political hijackers wanted publicity and a safe haven; that they intended to survive.
The USA was mugged, pure and simple.
edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.
There were a whole load of plane bits lying around the pentagon. Bits of engine, wheels, parts with the American airlines logo. It can only be deliberate ignorance that prevents you Doing the simplest of google searches to see them.,
That comment I just had to laugh at, especially when you used the words ignorant, google search, bits of engine, wheels, parts , logos etc.
Its like Voice saying that Wiki is a reliable source., and no prescedent etc…
Ignorant indeed!
Yeah, yeah, yeah … you moan, but you have no evidence to support your position, muzza. And that’s your fundamental problem. 11 years, two weeks, no evidence.
ps, I’ve come to the comclusion that there is a false flag aspect to 9/11. And you are part of it, my friend. Yep, CIA/Haliburton ‘truthers’ are running a false flag op to muddy the waters around a straightforward terrorist attack in order to keep the need for Homeland security at the forefront of the American people’s minds.
It’s probably the greatest conspiracy ever conceived in the history of the world, but I can’t say any more because there is a black helicopter over my house recording everything I do ….. aaaaaargh, noooooo, gravy for the mind …. tell the world my story, tell them muzzaaaaaaaaaargh!!!
Its all BS on every angle, it so obvious, no need to spend time dwelling on it. No need to waste time on what stinks from top to bottom!
Now you’re catching on, slow, but better you got there….I don’t even mind that its you who finally caught on to my position on such matters around deliberate confusion on every angle. Next you just have to develop the inate ability to be able to tell the shite in the lies….You dont have it though, your words tell me that for sure. Worse you have no interest in even trying, which is why you will remain confused on so many issues!
Idiocy beyond belief!
Your postion of deliberate confusion on almost every angle is entirely obvious to most observers. Although I’m prepared to drop the deliberate.
I’m assuming it was the laugh of the insane
On the Pentagon
Funny how she never once mentions the airliner debris on the lawn.
You’d think amongst all the other things she’s assessed she’d have a damn good theory about how the parts were stored inside the building to be found after the event or conveniently dropped in full view in the moments before people arrived on the scene to lend help.
Odd this is never addressed given that she has worked out everything else. Did she forget?
It seems that the only crime in the universe where the people pointing out that there is a problem with the story of the people who have most to gain by the crime, namely the military industrial complex who had earned trillions with the wars started in the aftermath, have to prove their allegations before a police investigation is started is the crime of 911.
This compares to a case were bystanders, who after a bloody body has been found, have to prove the guy who inherited all the dosh is guilty, after they point out the story he is telling is scientifically impossible, before a proper police investigation is started.
If you find a bloody body and call the police they come and investigate. They interrogate, question and use science to prove or disprove who has done the deed.
It is not our job to find out every detail and every facet of the story. We have done our job in that we have pointed out that scientifically the official story is a load of BS.
Even the members of the 9/11 commission declared they were set up to fail and are denouncing their own results.
We want a new and independent investigation into what happened on that day and we are not alone in this.
End of story!
I want a new and independent inquiry into why she completely ignores the most telling pieces of evidence, something you just spent a lot of words dancing around but never actually addressed either. Alternatives are fine, but they lack credibility when they just pretend counters don’t exist.
Even NIST denies the damage was cause for the collapse. In fact after seven years they said that they could not explain the collapse of building 7. Could have something to do with the fact that they refused to investigate the possibility of controlled demolition perhaps?
Purgatory?
Now your just making things up. NIST said no such thing.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.cfm
Assymetric building damage with fire weakening of structural steel in one corner of the building.
Yet the whole thing fell straight down vertically and symmetrically on to its own foot print. Magic.
TM building seven how many tonnes of debris fell on building 7
Do they have cameras pointing at the pentagon all the time maybe now but not then the black box was recovered innocent passengers were killed!
The right wing will be laughing their heads of off over these conspiracy theorists !
At the time of the attack on the Pentagon some 83 camera’s were pointed at the Pentagon at all times. Every footage of those cameras has been confiscated. We know this because the FBI The FBI acknowledges Having 83 video’s in their possession which they refuse to release. Only 6 frames have been released to date which do not show clear footage.
Here’s one of the classic situations where something mundane gets built upon and reimagined until the ‘facts’ shift to give the veneer of something suspicious.
“83 camera’s ..pointed at the Pentagon at all times” were nothing of the sort. There were 83 films taken by or given as evidence to the FBI. Most showed no images of the crash site (some were of the WTC events, some were from Florida and one from Wisconsin!) or were by people who attended the site after the event. Some were tourist videos, so pretty bored tourists if they have their cameras pointed at the Pentagon ‘all the time’
Why were they not released? Because the FOIA request only asked for videos showing the impact. The one that showed it was released after the completion of the Massoui trial.
Most, if not all, of the others have also been released since. http://penttbom.com/
So Eve presents a whole lot of not even half truths she has muddled together into a half baked blob of nothing, then adds some fairy dust and hey presto it’s a scandal.
.
Christchurch, I have realised, is experiencing one of those good old cliches / sayings that your granny always used to say. One of them ones which ring true and you get to see in action from time to time…
And that is “Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”
This government, with no plan to do anything anywhere in the economy or elsewhere, sees in Christchurch an opportunity to show it does stuff. You know, “right, lets get on with it. No point is sitting around, just get stuck in”. But they are bozos blowing it with their bluster and big man bullshit.
Two example. Firstly, the blueprint is such a massive undertaking that it is almost certainly going to struggle. Getting into the detail and action it becomes apparent that there are major issues not thought through sufficiently. The sorts of issues that cause things to stall, then re-think, then try again and by that time everyone has realised that the government actually had no idea in the first place.
Secondly, the school closures. The people and protests on te news are 100% right. The schools have been a beacon of normality for people, especially children. So why the rush? Why not start the conversation now and tell the communities that some time in the next couple of years some schools are going to have to close? Then the communities would have time to adjust, discuss, etc. That would seem to be the obvious and caring way. But no…
… fools rush in where angels fear to tread
Especially when the rushing in is based on inaccurate information.
Some Christchurch principals say that the government’s plans for Christchurch schools are based on inaccurate information.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/7704386/Principals-question-Education-Ministrys-data
I think you’ll find that the plans are based in ideology and that reality didn’t get a look in.
sounds good to me vto.
and by that time a decent Labour government that understands the concept of fair play for all will be back in power and the job can be done properly instead of the Jerry built way they are doing things now.
Not sure that they do?
Just been reviewing the slow queries log after seeing nasty slowdowns over the last few days. Added a few indexes into comments that hopefully will improve things. Apologies to anyone caught while the scripts were running.
Oh well off to the paid employment and what looks like a bug deep deep inside of webkit.
Ffox 15.0.1 still acting up wickedly, cleared the cache, sits there going round in circles after reading one article.
I’m using FF 15.01 and am not, nor have I recently been having, that problem.
I’ll try a re install then, thanks
Complete re install fixed it, thanks again
Great. I have seen that a few times myself. FF has this script engine that runs a lot of the internals and sometimes it seems to get itself quite screwed up. I suspect plugins myself.
I’m migrated pretty much to Chrome for normal use these days because it is on all my platforms :- linux, ios, android, virtual microsoft machines, microsoft server 2003 R2 (legacy systems), osx (to use xcode for ios grrr…), and even in the once a month boot of a dual partition vista (for bloody itunes grrr). It also seems to be pretty damn robust and quite fast for every platform I’ve used it on. Whereas firefox keeps feeling heavier and slower with each release
Yeah suspect it’s flash player myself, re installed it to no avail tho.
(Had a strange error / crash after visiting the standard this time)
Haven’t used chrome much, it’s installed but not used.
Transformational Leadership?
( google on another tab but slows this old pc)
Revenge of the Fallen?
Faster memory
The Standard ílluminati taught me how to be Helpful.
He teaches me how to care
Sounds like your walking on ice bud
‘skating away, skating away….on the Thin Ice of a New Day”
Well-grounded actually. (just have to manage the emotional cycles of the day)
We all have our crosses to bear, i imagine
i also imagine the Diversity of people who may read or reference The Standard
came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal
It’s a weak response to the context of the views expressed, not even worth reading, so i didn’t.
Context is everything on the Net.
It’s just a Blog M8!
came across Cam Sl bleat about anonymity of TS post-ers. Clearly, anonymity is not universal
He is a somewhat selective and always has been. For some strange reason he never seems to get the lesson that it makes very little difference if authors here are using their real names (like Ben Clark), or a psuedonym like myself when I’ve been using the same one for 30 years – it was my first login name, or where it is a psuedonym.
But you can’t get a sense of a person until you actually know them in person. Knowing someone on the net is an exercise in knowing one of their personas, the same as it is knowing them where they work, or whatever. It is a spurious argument that knowing who they are offers any particular value to their opinion unless they are an expert in their field like Mike is (which of course neither Whale or the other great whiners about real names – journos – never are).
However opinion is opinion and it makes bugger all difference who writes it – it is what it says that is important. You can always tell someone who writes something useful even if you disagree with it. It forces you to think
I suspect that what really gets him is the latter point. If you have nothing meaningful to say, then poor opinion like his invariably is gets treated as being crap regardless if it is a psuedo or “real name”. So he clings to the “outing” he was so irritated about 5 years ago just as he clings to his pseudonymous persona….
Yeah, I scanned it when looking for a blog to read, but landed on the Standard.
It was the articles originally.
Could be at that. Just checked memory use and it’s using close to 300MB and I thought it was bad when it was using ~100MB. The reason why I didn’t keep using Chrome, even though I liked it, was because Google won’t allow it to block ads from Google (Using AdBlock) but is quite happy for it to block everyone else’s.
*grin* Now that is a funny…
I don’t block ads* apart from malware so that isn’t an issue.
* Actually there are a few ad site that I block by IP – but that is because their ads irriate the hell out of me. I see that we picked one of those up this morning – the jiggling dialog style. I’ll have to tell scoop that the company making it is not to use our site again.
Evidently I still haven’t gotten whatever it is. It just happened again.
Damn. I’ll turn on the full query logging so I can find out what it is doing when I next see the database going ape.
Something happened when I just posted my comment to Return to Planet Key – I got an error message . Eventually I refreshed and the comment was posted, but I couldn’t edit (minor capitalisation typo).
Probably traffic surges, nothing to worry about, let it burp and continue
Anyone notice the slip of the tongue currently happening in statements from National MP’s.
Apparently they are now our governors, not our representatives.
Maybe an admission of the real situation?
Probably more the way they actually think of themselves. They certainly act as if they’re our overlords rather than our representatives.
That’s because they think they are our overlords. They’re to damm dumb to know they’re not…
In Parliament, Grant Robertson has just asked the “Dotcom” questions to the Police Minister that were suggested on this very blog, on Tuesday and Wednesday.
But she wasn’t there (Brownlee stood in) and nor was Key. They were there on Tuesday and Wednesday. Too late now.
That’s Labour’s incompetence in a nutshell. If there’s nobody there who can think of this stuff for themselves, why don’t they just have somebody standing by at lunchtime, and we’ll tell them the questions to ask, before 2 pm. No charge for the first ones used – after that, 10% of the MPs’ salary. It’s not like they’re earning it.
Hear ye!Hear ye! Apparently Commanderkey is announcing,possibly to the world, of his intention to send four SAS personnell to Afghanistan to obtain information on who is responsible for the recent attacks on NZ soldiers. What does SAS stand for? Will not someone see them coming now? Apparently, they will do nothing themselves,but share their info with somebody else. Who?Possibly an infiltrator in the Afghanistan Force. But, that’s alright,apparently this is not a revenge mission.Maybe he just wants an apology and then everything will be ok buddy.
Hope said personnell are good at their jobs and can stay safe, or stupidkey could have some blood on his hands.
ps key is an idiot!
Key could get Whalespew and three other gungho volunteers from that vile blog to go and give the “ragheads” what they deserve. I’d contribute a month’s salary on successful completion of the mission.
Oh dear, poor NACt are having a hard time justifying this private prisons business.
Oops, it seems that the government hiring the private sector just results in the private sector getting government guaranteed profits while not actually saving us money.
And it seems the London Stock exchange has been told more about the contract than the NZ public:
http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/tolley-needs-come-clean-regarding-wiri-prison/5/135340
Conspiracy theories…. do we have some good examples of ones that have been proven true after being written off?
(we don’t need the WTC as an example thanks, see up thread).
Yip, Hillsborough Disaster, 23 year cover-up just been exposed in the UK http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964 after 3 seperate enquiries finding the fans at fault, the truth has finally been exposed.
Loads.
Cover ups:
Erebus
Bloody Sunday Massacre
Dreyfus Affair
Other:
Gunpowder Plot
Iran-Contra
Anything ever done by an intelligence service.
All the GWBush wars – e.g. yellowcake, “smoking gun”, yadda yadda
Gulf of Tonkin.
I think that, to be labelled a conspiracy, it has to be more than just a coverup after the event. I’d label Hillsborough, Erebus, and Bloody Sunday as coverups, for example.
The Gulf of Tonkin incident and the Burning of the Reichstag are more deserving of being called conspiracies, as they were both planned in advance. The destruction of the USS Maine in Havana was possibly a false flag operation, which maybe qualifies.
I think the biggest conspiracy theory of all is the spreading of theories about Bilderberg, the Illuminati, Zionist one world government etc. All these have the effect of causing despair in people because if something is done behind the scenes by almost omnipotent forces, what can be done about it? On the other hand, anyone who analyses capitalism knows broadly what our ruling class will do and what needs to be done to stop it. Of course, this requires a lot more than watching youtube. You have to get off your ass and mobilise for a start. It’s not easy.
Yeah, there is an instinctive distinction between a plain “coverup” and a full conspiracy. But then the coverup can be an extensive and systemic conspiracy, e.g. Dreyfus.
The trouble is that a lot of the stuff that happens in the world isn’t anyone’s master plan, most of the time it’s an improvised response to a changing situation which folk then quietly work around. ISTR that the Nazis mounted a real “false flag” operation in 1939, staging an attack on their own border posts by pretend-Polish soldiers.
Watergate definitely counted as a conspiracy, but then it was another programme that evolved into illegal activities beyond par.
As an aside, the most reasonable explanation I read for the USS Maine was that it was a coal bunker fire that had heat conducted through the metal structure to an ammunition bunker. But then it was certainly perverted and transformed into a casus belli.
God bless the NZ SAS and their Friends in combat and those they are protecting.
It’s possible, they are trying.
In the name of peacefull coexistence and life I bless them.
Are you suppose to be a priest or something?
Agnostic, and no.
Your “blessing” is worth about sweet FA then.
lol
Only if you’re an atheist.
I was just having a go at him because of his unctuous drivel.
Woody Allen put the dilemma well:
You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.
If you do believe in a god you got a BIG problem proving it – you just got to have “faith”.
God is thought, life tells us to grow and think
evolved over billions of years.
That’s an old idea.
It was super ceded by Hegel’s Phenomenology of Spirit. The world and human civilization were the material expression of Spirit/Idea.
Then Marx came along and took the next logical step removing the Spirit/Idea part for an efficiency gain. All that there is, is material, and man is God.
Indeed … their gods were/are Gods Personified and most likely a twisted version of themselves.
Two points:
If the universe is a cold meaningless place, then the warmth and meaning of people is much more important.
And asserting that anyone’s blessing is worth sweet FA is a much stronger religious assertion than a quick blessing by someone who’s not entirely sure it will have an effect.
“the warmth and meaning of people”
The problem is they stop existing.
So we find the warmth where we can, and we provide warmth for others.
Then you drop dead.
See? Absurd.
If a light is turned off, does that mean it never shone?
The act of extinguishing it requires that it have been bright in the first place.
Shit changes. The word turns. If we lived forever Hitler would still be farting and ranting.
You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.
Er, nope. That doesn’t follow at all.
That only makes sense if a god is the only thing that could prevent a universe being ‘indifferent, cold, and meaningless’; and I can’t think of any reason why that might be, or any reason why an atheist would believe it. It’s pants pretty much.
So where is the meaning? Seems like countless philosophers, poets, artists have struggled with it.
So what makes you think you’ve bagged it?
Please share.
A pretty silly demand to make k-p.
You are the one who has suggested that god is a necessary condition for ‘meaning’ (and so on), in the universe. I said that has not been shown to be the case. You haven’t established that.
How does it follow from from what I said, that I should have ‘bagged’ whatever it is you think that theologians have over philosphers?
Short answer, it doesn’t. Typical slippery question begging from the theologician camp.
Explain to me why god is necessary for the things you claim.
You’ll need to define those things first, (the opposites of ‘indifferent, cold, meaningless’) and as you do so, be careful that that what you are describing are not subjective experiences of the universe by sentient beings. Because if that’s the case, then what’s needed for those things to exist is sentient beings, not necessarily gods.
I dont believe in the existence of a God.
So my dilemma is finding meaning.
Whereas God believers are stuck with “faith” and questions like “If God is so freaking loving and all powerful why are there little children who have had their feet and hands blown off by mines disguised as children’s toys?”
Meaning is a subjective thing k-p. In the western way of looking at it at least.
Sticking with that angle, meaning is what people find. It’s how they perceive, explain, experience.
You are not going to find it on the outside, it must be active, and provided by yourself. And it won’t be universal. One person’s experience of the universe will, of necessity, be different to everyone else’s, so it’s cray cray to expect their meanings to be the same, and that’s ok.
Or to take a more eastern angle, we are ourselves just ‘expressions of the universe’.
I’m the universe being me, just as my chair is the universe being a chair.
Why? To what end?
Ends in themselves, strip away the ego, and just let the universe be the things it is. Relish that and savour it. Be the universe observing itself.
Both those angles are saying the same thing by the way.
Ah, no. It doesn’t require a god to make the universe a place of wonder and adventure.
“You don’t believe in a god then the universe is an indifferent, cold, meaningless place.”
Not at all. A universe without God makes it a mysterious, wondrous place with a new discovery found in every corner.
Someones a Star Trek fan. 🙄
Your point?
Oh, wait, you don’t have one.
I hate Star Trek with a passion.
But I am a Carl Sagan fan.
And talking about state capture of a process:
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/govt-confirms-earthquake-commission-review.
Only selected stakeholders are getting a say in this while the general public will get a couple of weeks to comment at the end. The private insurers must be drooling in anticipation. Lean on your MP to open up the submissions?
“Gay marriage” has taken a hammering over in Aussie. Voted down big time twice!
Hopefully it falls on its face here too.
On this one you have a point. NZ Labour and Greens focussed largely on it, but they neglecte other “issues”. Something to think aboout perhaps.
The right wingers took a big hit though. One of their top players had to quit after saying if gay marriage is permissible why not bestiality?
I think he has got a good point – its the Slippery Slope argument. But he went down in a hail of bullets from the media and opponents, his argument dismissed as “ridiculous” or “homophobic” whatever the fuck that is suppose to mean. 🙄
How does the concept “any two consenting adults can marry” slide into “people will marry their pets”?
Marriage is between consenting parties. Animals (and for that matter children) cannot consent to anything.
“Marriage is between consenting parties.”
A father and his son?
“How does the concept “any two consenting adults can marry” slide into “people will marry their pets”? ”
It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.
You mean where both are old enough to consent?
Wouldn’t that conflict with the familial relationship, though? I’ll give you that, then – make it “consenting parties who aren’t closely related”.
See there you go – now YOU are deny rights to people.
So obviously you dont think individual rights are absolute.
And neither do I.
Basically you’re pushing rational contract theory – the same one that is the foundation for neo classical economics actually – rational individual free agents entering contracts with each other. And look where that has got us, haha.
So back to marriage. Consent is NECESSARY, but it is not SUFFICIENT. Is love necessary let alone sufficient? No, after all it can be faked.
But it is necessary but not sufficient that the two agents be of the opposite sex, there are physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement that is and must be acknowledged in the idea of marriage.
No, you presented a counter example and I said okay, that would involve a conflict of interests, I’ll give you that one. But there is no conflict of interests between two unrelated men marrying, any mor that between an unrelated man and woman.
Any union between two people involves “physical, psychological and functional elements unique to that arrangement”. Why does gender need to be singled out?
“Why does gender need to be singled out?”
If your relationship does not have those unique elements of one based on consent, you don’t qualify for marriage.
If your relationship does not have those unique elements of a heterosexual one, you don’t qualify for marriage. Why? Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.
Pretending that “gender doesnt matter” will destroy the meaning of marriage.
Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that, but of course once they got it, they then wanted more.
Wow! Have you ever considered ringing a talkback station?
“Because the differentiation of the sexes is such a significant central characteristic of the human species. That must be recognised, and that is what the institution of marriage does.”
Why must it?
No.
Marriage is a legal recognition of a relationship between people that, in many instances, is more intimate than most familial bonds.
Nothing about ‘nads in it at all.
Gays have got their civil unions. They were suppose to be happy with that
Did you support that legislation, or oppose it?
lolz.
Poor little k_p still hasn’t figured out where babies come from.
his is idiot stuff. let us focus on what is important!
the rights of very roughly 10-30% of the population count, too.
Love is a mutual emotion. As far as I can see, nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”. That would be against the entire concept of marriage. Both parties at the ceremony say “I do”, not one party saying “I’ll take that one”. But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.
“Love is a mutual emotion.”
No way! Come on, its the core of a million love stories, you know the quote “When the object of ones affection…”
“But genital allocation among the parties being intrinsic to the ceremony and concept? Not so much.”
Very much, see above ^.
“nobody’s said “I want to be able to marry someone against their will”.”
See above ^.
Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.
If you want soppy love quotes, love is when you’re prepared to share the deepest, darkest, worst thing about yourself to another person, and it doesn’t matter to them.
“Dude, unrequited “love” is obsession, infatuation, affection, a crush… but not “love”.”
Poets and novelists have been writing about love for thousands of years.
You really think you know what its all about? Then you should write the book, and make your fortune.
Some people find Twilight romantic. Others see an abusive and emotionally controlling relationship. Meh.
Depends upon which culture you’re looking at. Several cultures had/have arranged marriages where people are married against their will.
maybe so.
But not in NZ law.
But it happens here.
The marriage act is very clear that both parties need to say the words. Sec31(3).
It doesn’t but “Let me marry who I love!” does and that is the central argument given by pro gay marriage advocates.
I’ve never seen that expressed as anything other than ‘let us marry each other’, or ‘let me marry someone I am in love with’.
But sure, if you have an example of anyone suggesting non-consensual gay marriage, I’ll be against that. But I bet you can’t.
What do you mean? It was on a protester’s sign in a pic on a thread here.
Come on KP – you can’t be serious.
If that sign was at a gay marriage protest, then ‘who I love’ is referring to their partner…not their Grandma.
If a pub has a sign outside saying ‘smoking section’…that does not mean you can pull out a glass pipe and start smoking crack – it is referring to cigarettes/tobacco.
Gosh. A sign at a protest you say. Certainly put me in my place.
Do you want homosexuality recriminalised?
Kiwi_prometheus
If you wish to have sex with animals, or even confine this to one animal, go for it. I really don’t care either way. I just hope it’s a carnivore with large teeth.
The only essential difference I see among people is that some want a better world for themselves and others want a better world for society as a whole. This has nothing to do with gender.
Crisis or Breakdown?
Emphasis mine:
The drive for profit and accumulation must result in advancement in technology being curtailed as capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares. To prop up profit essential services are being cut.
Conflating capitalism and democracy is what right wingers do.
Capitalism and democracy chaff. But capitalism moderated by democracy does allow everyones boat to lift with the rising tide of living standards = political stability of course because everyone feels they are getting a reasonable slice of the pie with future expectations of more!
“capitalism cannot afford to solve the climate crisis and other environmental nightmares”
Its not about Capitalism doing this. It’s democracy which can – re ozone depletion and solution.
Really? Did you not notice the increasing poverty over the last 30 years? The quarter of a million children in hardship? The majority of the people aren’t getting a good deal. In fact, they’re being shafted so as to prop up the 1% profits.
No, it’s about capitalism preventing it. That’s why NACT keep saying that we need to balance between the economy and the environment means.
As an addendum to that one have this one:
Of Flying Cars
And that most definitely applies to NZ as well. Contrary to what most people seem to believe about the free-market the bureaucrats have taken over.
There’s no reply link on the gay marriage strand!
“Did you support that legislation, or oppose it?”
I supported it.