Open mike 24/10/2012

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1. Morrissey 1

   24 October 2012 at 6:33 am

   The “resolute and courageous” Sir Wilson Whineray
   Wednesday, October 24, 2012

   Watched an obituary item on “Sir” Wilson Whineray on TV1’s Te Karere this morning. They mentioned that the racially selected All Black team team he led to apartheid South Africa in 1960 was disparagingly called “Whineray’s Whites”. Against archival footage of massive anti-tour marches (“No Maoris No Tour”), Māori football historian Malcolm Mulholland claimed that “the decision was out of his hands” and that the people who should bear the blame for the farcical situation were “the administrators”.

   Mulholland’s implication, clearly, was that Whineray, a thoroughly decent man who found himself leading a racially selected team to play according to the dictates of an apartheid regime, was actually far better than that, and would no doubt have been opposed to the tour—-but “the decision was out of his hands”.

   Well, let’s fast-forward a couple of generations. Whineray, now impressively titled “Sir” Wilson Whineray, after retiring from football in 1965, has carved out a distinguished business career, most notably with the forest products conglomerate Carter Holt Harvey, where he was deputy managing director and then, for ten years, chairman. It’s 2003, and Sir Wilson is retiring from Carter Holt Harvey. He’s being interviewed by TV3’s John Campbell, who mentions that Carter Holt Harvey had continued to trade with Chile, in defiance of a worldwide trade union ban on trade with Pinochet’s U.S.-backed terror regime.

   Whineray did not miss a beat. “To continue to trade in such a situation,” he intoned slowly and carefully, “took considerable resolution and courage. We just did what we thought was the right thing.”

   There you have it: Sir Wilson Whineray, powerful administrator of a powerful international conglomerate, thinks he was resolute and courageous to defy human rights protests and trade bans and trade with a fascist regime. So much for Malcolm Mulholland’s theory about Whineray’s innate decency being over-ruled by “the administrators”.

   Oh, and what was John Campbell’s reaction, you ask. Campbell nodded his head, gravely, respectfully, thoughtfully, clearly overawed by the mana of the great man.
   • Tiger Mountain 1.1

     24 October 2012 at 9:33 am

     Sir Wilson ticks all the boxes really for this rugby hating leftie–conservative, tory, supporter of apartheid and Pinochet and not beloved of some NZ unionists either at CHH.

     The main argument I have with rugby is the reactionary cultural streak it has represented since colonisation. The hard man, keep playing with a broken arm or ball sack ripped open. Women bring a plate, no poofters please. Whaddarya! This style still exists in Northland for sure.

     Yet Morrisey, any critics of Sir Wilson will most likely be wasting their time as the media and the sporting orthodoxy have decided this guy deserves Ed Hillary treatment which he does not.
     • One Tāne Huna 1.1.1

       24 October 2012 at 9:35 am

       All rise for the flag salute.
     • North 1.1.2

       24 October 2012 at 9:10 pm

       Tiger Mountain…….yes, the style you refer to does exist in Northland (my pseudonym might tell you something) but the truth and unashamedly being whom one is are mighty insurance and weapons if needs be.

       I have repeated personal experience, coast to coast north of Hikurangi – not so sure about Whangas wannabee Aux, of the caricature you invoke and man, people ain’t hard to turn around. Even the seeming gorillas.

       You get my meaning ?
       • Rogue Trooper 1.1.2.1

         24 October 2012 at 10:38 pm

         😉
   • North 1.2

     24 October 2012 at 6:23 pm

     Hope Campbell reads your excellent post Morrissey. Email it to him.
     • Rogue Trooper 1.2.1

       24 October 2012 at 10:51 pm

       God Bless you and your brothers.
       It is very sad that a brother who has served a very long time here is still being hounded by the media and those who want another pound of flesh (we have met),
       yet,
       his colla egue has not been adjacent to him since departing
2. mickysavage 2

   24 October 2012 at 8:24 am

   Rod Oram has some interesting comments on Tiwai Point in the latest SST but I cannot find it online …

   Interesting snippets were as follows:

   “The Tiwai Point aluminium smelter has no future. We can deal with its demise in an orderly and economically positive way over the next few years; or chaotically and damagingly later.
    
   It shares its fate with scores of other old smelters around the world. They were built 30-40 years ago to exploit very cheap electricity in remote places. But big changes in technology, electricity markets and the aluminium industry in the last decade have killed their economic lives.
    
   …
    
   [China] … has … become the technology leader in smelting. One New Zealand industry expert reckons the best Chinese plant is at least twice as energy efficient as Tiwai Point, and enjoys cheaper electricity.
    
   …
    
   At around US$2,000 a tonne currently, [Aluminium’s] price has changed little since 1980. It is by far the worst-performing mined commodity. In contrast over the same period the price of copper price has trebled and iron ore has increased eight fold, according to the IMF.
    
   …

   Rio Tinto, which owns 79% of the Tiwai Point smelter, is a big loser thanks to an astonishingly bad deal it did in 2007. It lost its head in a bidding war for Alcan, the Canadian-based smelter, paying US$38bn, a 65% premium over the market price. Financed almost entirely by debt, it was the biggest takeover ever in the mining sector and the burden has dragged it down ever since. The assets are performing so poorly, some 80% of Rio’s profits come instead from iron ore.
    
   …
    
   Tiwai Point, one of the assets for sale, was once a jewel of its kind, exploiting since 1971 very cheap, captive electricity. The government of the day built the Manapouri hydro scheme to supply the smelter, which has only ever paid a fraction of the price for electricity that other industrial users have.
    
   But Rio says it must have even cheaper electricity to restore Tiwai’s viability. …
    
   …
    
   There is … a very good case that the electricity [freed by Tiwai’s closure] would create greater economic benefit if it were available to all users across the country. Manapouri, which has by far the most reliable water storage of all our hydro schemes, generates just the sort of electricity we need: renewable, base-load.
    
   …

   So, it’s time for Rio and Meridian, Southland and New Zealand to face up to the harsh reality of Tiwai Point. The plant is no longer economically viable and, at a mere 0.8% of world aluminium output, it is irrelevant to the global industry. Subsidising it further would be a very serious economic mistake.”

   The unasked question is would you buy shares in a power company where there was likely to be a 15% glut of power on the market in the next couple of years? 
    
    
   • Lanthanide 2.1

     24 October 2012 at 9:51 am

     Very interesting, thanks.

     Seems he didn’t address the possibilities of an upgrade for the plant?
     • mickysavage 2.1.1

       24 October 2012 at 11:35 am

       No he thought the Chinese were far too efficient.  Rio Tinto have upgraded a couple of plants but have not upgraded Tiwai.  It seems they are either hoping for really, really, really cheap energy or they are going to bail.
       • Herodotus 2.1.1.1

         24 October 2012 at 2:31 pm

         From memory Tiwai constructed 1/2 a pot line in the very late1990’s, I did have some involvement in a support industry at the time.
   • tc 2.2

     24 October 2012 at 9:52 am

     Ouch oh the pain of a fact based logical argument up against the NACT flog it, drill it, mine it, charter it, privatise it ethos.

     Rio and BHP Billiton have made some horrendous stuff ups, all rolled under the carpet of Iron/Gold etc covering up executive incompetance, much like Fletcher, telecom etc etc, the bigger they are …..
     • freedom 2.2.1

       24 October 2012 at 10:11 am

       The bigger they are …
       The more they take
3. gobsmacked 3

   24 October 2012 at 12:00 pm

   More excuses and distraction from Paula Bennett …

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7854125/Privacy-blunders-mount-at-Winz

   She would have to resign today, if Labour had taken my advice (but they didn’t, because they’re useless).

   Last week Bennett said of the WINZ fiasco … It ain’t gonna happen twice. (Radio Live interview). I pointed out that Labour MPs simply had to ask her in Parliament if she stood by that. Quietly get it on the record. For the next time.

   Instead, they shouted a lot. What fun for them! … and how pointless for us.

   Now it’s the next time – as predicted. And Jacinda Adern has another question for Bennett in Parliament today. Expect more shouting. No answers. And no resignation.
   • The Invisible Meerkat 3.1

     24 October 2012 at 12:49 pm

      

     On Monday Fairfax Media reported the personal identification numbers (Pins) for the payment cards being rolled out to 2600 young beneficiaries were the last four digits of the card numbers.
     A signature was also required but security experts said that was no longer considered sufficient safeguard.
     Bennett has asked for a full briefing from MSD this week.
     ”But to be honest, they’re as secure as a credit card really.” 
     A lot of people still verified their credit card with a signature and, while it was not the most modern practice, MSD did not have concerns about security, she said.
     The pin was used to open the account but identity was verified by signature.
     MSD was ”quite sure” that was safe. She did not believe it raised concerns about ongoing security issues within MSD.
      
      

     Right. So if I lose my credit card, I can report it lost/stolen 24 hours a day, and I am not liable for any of the money stolen using it. Is Bennett going to guarantee that any if an 18 yr old loses their WINZ card on the weekend, someone spends an hour practicing the signature and then uses up the remaining credit at the local supermarket, that the beneficiary is going to be reimbursed that money?
      
     Who will be asking Bennett that question?
     • Dv 3.1.1

       24 October 2012 at 1:07 pm

       “A lot of people still verified their credit card with a signature and, while it was not the most modern practice, MSD did not have concerns about security, she said.”

       Yep WINZ are real experts on security.

       “The pin was used to open the account but identity was verified by signature.
       MSD was ”quite sure” that was safe. She did not believe it raised concerns about ongoing security issues within MSD.”

       The PIN is PRINTED on the card!!

       AND
       HT Frank
       http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/119000/youth-payment-card-misuse-reported-to-minister
       “Mrs Bennett says she’s been told by retailers and others in the community that people using the cards have been selling on food or batteries. “People buy 10 cooked chickens and then go and sell them in the carpark. ”

       DUH
       Well that wasn’t expected was it!!!!!!
     • Treetop 3.1.2

       25 October 2012 at 4:08 pm

       So the Work and Income card cannot be used at the self service checkout as it requires the signature to be verified.

       The comment about bulk buying chickens, next checkout operators will be required to notify Work and Income if a person buys in bulk!
   • McFlock 3.2

     24 October 2012 at 1:40 pm

     I reckon that most members of this cabinet could be caught by a 6pm news crew  live on air with their dick in a sheep and they’d still not resign or even be sacked. 
            
     Which makes me wonder what Richard Worth actually did. 
     • blue leopard 3.2.1

       24 October 2012 at 1:55 pm

       lol (& the polls would still be good too)
   • Draco T Bastard 3.3

     24 October 2012 at 3:10 pm

     If Bennett gets kicked or resigns it’s possible that this government would collapse as she would most likely be replaced by Sepuloni so neither is likely to happen.
4. blue leopard 4

   24 October 2012 at 12:15 pm

   A great article here regarding the doublespeak term of “freedom” that seems so effective in getting people to vote in the rope that will hang them and cheer while doing so.

   The neoliberal battle cry of “liberty” and “freedom” through “personal responsibility” sounds wonderful on the surface, but we have to ask ourselves as individuals and as a collective nation, what are the costs of this alleged “liberty” and “freedom”?
   • freedom 4.1

     24 October 2012 at 1:09 pm

     There was a great comment from a plant after the 7/7 bombings in London. A A stall holder at a market ( who other stall holders said they had never seen) was interviewed saying she would happily give up her liberty for freedom.
     • blue leopard 4.1.1

       24 October 2012 at 1:20 pm

       Yeah when “freedom” is mentioned I always ask myself freedom from what? Sadly the answer usually falls into the category of “freedom from considering the effects of one’s actions on anyone else.” 🙁
     • Rogue Trooper 4.1.2

       25 October 2012 at 7:57 pm

       I like it!
5. gobsmacked 5

   24 October 2012 at 12:31 pm

   We haven’t heard much from David Shearer since the Christchurch speech last week.

   He’s been busy …

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/central-leader/7851879/MP-to-kick-start-festival
   • Jim Nald 5.1

     24 October 2012 at 7:41 pm

     DS is currently in the wrong job.
     Grant Robertson should tell him that and thank him for keeping the seat warm.
6. ianmac 6

   24 October 2012 at 12:37 pm

   I wonder why Winston would ask this question unless he knows something that could be embarrassing to the PM?
   Q7: “Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS to the Prime Minister: When did he first learn of a German resident living in the Chrisco mansion in the Prime Minister’s electorate?”
   • karol 6.1

     24 October 2012 at 12:40 pm

     Yes, interesting choice of words, because Key always focused on not remembering the Dotcom name.
     • gobsmacked 6.1.1

       24 October 2012 at 12:43 pm

       I’ll bet a chocolate fish that Key “can’t recall”, and Winston gets thrown out for telling him he bloody well does.
       • blue leopard 6.1.1.1

         24 October 2012 at 12:52 pm

         …and another chocolate fish placed on the bets that Mr Key will be allowed a few minutes for relaying fallacious put-downs of one or more opposition parties/members after having let us all know he can’t remember.
     • deuto 6.1.2

       24 October 2012 at 12:50 pm

       Haven’t got time right now to check/find link, but IIRC at the beginning of Key’s video interview on 24 January re Dotcom (when he later went on to talk at length about DC’s resident status) Key talked about having heard “about a German resident living in the Crisco mansion”. So think Peters’ wording is taken straight from that interview. So this could be interesting in QTime.

       The video of the 24 Jan interview has been put up on TS several times – think is was included in a Herald article on 24 Jan.
       • deuto 6.1.2.1

         24 October 2012 at 1:11 pm

         Update – it was annoying me so here is the link to the 24 Jan interview from Eddie’s post on 4 October.
         http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/video.cfm?c_id=1&gal_objectid=10781209&gallery_id=123534

         And my memory was correct – Key’s response to the first question talks about him being “aware of a German resident living in the house”.

         The fact that Key referred to a “German resident” stuck out for me as being rather odd – ie if the person was living here in NZ, why call him a German resident? Also the way Key lights up when he mentions having been to/or seen the Crisco mansion (pre Dotcom) made me wonder whether he had “aspirations” in respect of the property. Bit beyond his means, though. It has crossed my mind several times that Key could be jealous of Dotcom’s much bigger fortune of over $1 billion by the time DC was 38 years old – vs Key’s worth of c $50 Million.
         • Fortran 6.1.2.1.1

           24 October 2012 at 1:49 pm

           Dotcom is also a Finnish citizen
           • deuto 6.1.2.1.1.1

             24 October 2012 at 2:29 pm

             So? I knew that – it has no relevance to the Parliamentary question or to what Key said on 24 Jan.
           • North 6.1.2.1.1.2

             24 October 2012 at 9:25 pm

             So what if DC is/was also a Finnish resident Fortan ? Are you writing Dunnokeyo’s lines or something ?
7. Dave Kennedy (bsprout) 7

   24 October 2012 at 12:47 pm

   How many questions can he answer correctly?
   http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2012/10/john-key-mastermind-contestant.html
   • blue leopard 7.1

     24 October 2012 at 12:56 pm

     Amusing! However your article requires a correction methinks. I believe the quiz master, Mr Lockwood Smith would give Mr Key a top score after having answered the questions in such a manner.
8. ianmac 8

   24 October 2012 at 1:09 pm

   Well done that man Sprout! John Key seems to be a long way ahead of Helen for whom a painting and being in a passenger car was the worst that could be ranged against her. So 10/10 for Key in the the Mis-speak race.
9. Rogue Trooper 9

   24 October 2012 at 2:44 pm

   word from Greece; it is dark there. and it is getting darker here, “day by day” according to the Greeks
   “and they are trying to cover it up here”.

   Shearer honing his precision.
   (well, I’m off to begin my franciscan journey on the bus)
   Be Well 🙂
   • muzza 9.1

     24 October 2012 at 5:16 pm

     Put it this way, the Greeks are calling up their nationals from abroad to serve. I know a guy who recently got called back to Greece from London – It was not optional, he is going, I’m unsure what is service status was.

     Can’t be good, but yet Europe gets little to no coverage here

     Baaa
10. McFlock 10

    24 October 2012 at 3:14 pm

    Thank goodness for an independent judiciary: when the police break the law, the case gets thrown out.
       
    And the judge didn’t hold back criticising the police use of a false search warrant and “fake” prosecution. Judges get pissy when you take the courts for a ride.
11. gobsmacked 11

    24 October 2012 at 3:29 pm

    So … a lively question time.

    Lockwood ties himself up in knots on “hypocrisy” versus “hypocrite”. Farcical.

    Winston and Robertson turn the screws on Key (Dotcom and Banks respectively). Bennett escapes again. Norman annoys Key (as usual), Shearer doesn’t (as usual).

    Unfortunately today was the last real chance for the opposition in Parliament. Coming up: recess, Hobbits, Christmas and the summer memory hole.

    Too many opportunities have been wasted. Too many MPs can’t think on their feet, can’t work as a team (e.g. Peters attacks Key on Dotcom, no back-up from Labour), and generally under-perform. It took 20 minutes for an MP (Robertson) to use the “hypocrisy” line that Lockwood had fed them.

    New Year’s resolution for the Opposition, especially Labour – do much better.
    • freedom 11.1

      24 October 2012 at 4:06 pm

      Lament for a Single Part Question
      (sung to Three Little Boys)

      Two little boys had one little toy
      Each had a wink to use
      Slyly they played each sitting day
      Warriors both of course
      One little chap then had a mishap
      absentia of the head
      American toy then cried with joy
      As his quizmaster said

      Across the House they should be crying
      but they seem more concerned with the few
      Climb up here, we’ll soon be flying
      Back to the ranks so blue
      Can you feel John I’m all a tremble, perhaps it’s the lack of noise
      But I think its they haven’t noticed I mentioned three little words

      Very soon we’ll both be leaving
      And our history will just be noise
      before then will they remember
      To use use those three little words

      -sorry Rolf

      p.s. why the moderation?
      • Rogue Trooper 11.1.1

        25 October 2012 at 8:06 pm

        Let the dead bury the dead.
    • Anne 11.2

      24 October 2012 at 7:26 pm

      Unfortunately today was the last real chance for the opposition in Parliament. Coming up: recess, Hobbits, Christmas and the summer memory hole.

      There’s still time for the Opposition parties to score a few bulls-eyes before the House rises for the year.

      Sitting days:

      October

      16, 17, 18, 23, 24, 25

      November

      6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15, 27, 28 and 29

      December

      4, 5, 6, 11, 12, 13, 18, 19 and 20

      I had the impression in Q time today that Winston Peters is setting Key up for something. If it’s true, it will surely be before the end of the year.
      • Jim Nald 11.2.1

        24 October 2012 at 7:46 pm

        Dunnokeyo had a moment of self-confession when he referred to himself in the third person in reply to Winston today:

        “the member makes up lots of things as he goes along”

        * * * **

        Rt Hon Winston Peters: … If and when it is proven that the Prime Minister’s knowledge of Kim Dotcom was far earlier than he has said, will he step down from his role as Prime Minister; if not, why not?
        Rt Hon JOHN KEY: No, and the reason is that—
        Rt Hon Winston Peters: Why not?
        Rt Hon JOHN KEY: Well, because the member makes up lots of things as he goes along.
        • blue leopard 11.2.1.1

          24 October 2012 at 10:45 pm

          @ Jim Nald,

          “Well, because the member makes up lots of things as he goes along”

          Yes I thought this was a remarkable moment of lucidity from Mr Key.

          Also found Mr Foss’s statement very dubious:

          “Hon CRAIG FOSS: It is such a good and large number—$1 billion will be spent by this Government in Christchurch on schools over the next 10 years.”

          How can “this government” spend money over 10 years when “this Government” can only ever last for 3 years? It appears that DunnoKeyO & co not only continue to place all blame for all wrongs on previous Governments; now they are starting to take credit for money that is going to be spent by future governments too.
      • ianmac 11.2.2

        24 October 2012 at 7:56 pm

        Maybe wishful thinking but I suspect that Winston does have something in hand and as he has done before he likes to get repeated statements from the PM on record. At the least it might cause a little niggle in the sleep patterns of John Key.
        “I wonder what Winston actually knows? Nah. Couldn’t be – could it?”
        • Anne 11.2.2.1

          24 October 2012 at 8:12 pm

          Here is Winston’s question:

          http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/15726

          Well worth a listen.

          Also had the impression Charles Chauval might have something up his sleeve too.

          http://inthehouse.co.nz/node/15729
          • RedBaron 11.2.2.1.1

            24 October 2012 at 9:01 pm

            I would be very surprised if Winston doesn’t have something up his sleeve and he’ll milk it for all it’s worth.
            Remember the “great ferry bottom grounding incident” when he spent months harrying the then Minister of Transport (Richard Prebble from memory) about one of the inter islander ferries touching bottom ” going aground” in the Tory channel and Prebble couldn’t prove otherwise..

            Long after the noise died down I believe the ferry went in for it’s dry dock and “lo and behold there was a large dint in the bottom.” Better than the movies….

            Same with the winebox, he kept at it until it blew.

            He’s good at it and because of this people leak to Winston. He doesn’t shove it under the carpet.

            This is the smoke but odds on there is a fire.
12. Chalupa Batman 12

    24 October 2012 at 4:03 pm

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/10/thanks-john-campbell/

    This may be of interest to some
    • McFlock 12.1

      24 October 2012 at 4:25 pm

      what’s it about? I try not to soil my computer with that site unless absolutely necessary.
      • fatty 12.1.1

        24 October 2012 at 4:33 pm

        Don’t bother McFlock…its a waste of your time.
        Its about an arrogant school principle who subscribes to the belief of disentitlement and doesn’t care about hungry children. Unsurprisingly, whale blubber holds him/her up as some sort of ethical guiding light.
        You know the old mantra…we are here to teach not feed, its the parents responsibility, I’m a selfish & crappy school principle…blah, blah, blah.
        • McFlock 12.1.1.1

          24 October 2012 at 4:40 pm

          Cheers, thanks for that 🙂
                   
          Where would parasites be if they weren’t praised by bottom-feeders… 
        • Chalupa Batman 12.1.1.2

          24 October 2012 at 4:50 pm

          Thats certainly one way of looking at it
          • One Tāne Huna 12.1.1.2.1

            24 October 2012 at 4:53 pm

            Passive aggressive much? Have you the fortitude to express an opinion on the matter or are your comments simply a bag of air?
            • McFlock 12.1.1.2.1.1

              24 October 2012 at 5:07 pm

              the answer to that question might be of interest to some 😉
            • Chalupa Batman 12.1.1.2.1.2

              24 October 2012 at 5:41 pm

              Its interesting to hear an opinion from the education sector (a principle no less) that goes against the general feeling of that profession.

              Listening to the media or reading these blogs would have you believe that 100% of the education profession is totally on song with the same message (basically the message is National bad)

              He’s probably got a better grasp of the situation then anyone here so he should be listened to
              • McFlock …

                24 October 2012 at 5:52 pm

                Nope. 
                     
                The sad fact is that it trips a couple of major wires that raise doubt as to whether I should waste my time even reading it:
                 
                1: the greasy cetacean is plugging it. More often than not that site is not so much “opinion” than “slanted, distorted and factually fucked up propaganda”. 
                   
                2: a professional who “goes against the feeling” of their profession might be a great person with a valid idea, or might just be a kook or shill. Infomercials are full of them. This takes time and more importantly concentration to determine. And sometimes a degree or two in the area. Do I really care that much in order about whether teachers are entitled to sulk about feeding hungry kids?
                   
                With both of those lines tripped, I don’t care to waste my time, expose myself to the bile on that site, or indeed put my computer at risk of lso cookies.
                  
                • Chalupa Batman …

                  24 October 2012 at 6:04 pm

                  Paranoid much?
                  • McFlock …

                    24 October 2012 at 6:09 pm

                    Nope. 
                • Bob …

                  25 October 2012 at 4:52 am

                  Here you go McFlock, saves you visiting the site yourself.
                  I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on this, as this letter IMO is almost direct dividing line between the left and the right in NZ on a number of issues, those who agree with this principal (real or not) being right leaning, and those that disagree being left leaning.

                  Hi Cam

                  Thought you would be interested in an exchange that took place in my office earlier today that illustrates the utter nonsense of this “Schools Should Feed Kids’ campaign.

                  We are a rural, decile 2 school. As with every school, the decile rating only tells a very small part of the story. We have some very wealthy families at our school and a number of families that live in a very deprived setting.

                  A group from one of our Maori whanau arrived in my office this morning. They had a complaint. I’m not going to go into the detail of the complaint because they were very respectful about the way that they conveyed it and to some degree I could see where they were coming from. It was a relatively minor matter (in my view), but could see that it was very important to them, and is largely brought about by different cultural values.

                  After I (genuinely) apologised for the unintended offence caused by the actions of one of my staff the anger in the room dissipated. We got to talking about other ‘grievances’ that they wanted to bring to the surface.

                  [deleted]

                  Link again in case you are interested http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/10/thanks-john-campbell/

                  [lprent: Don’t cut’n’paste here. McFlock can go to the site if he cares to or not. But we do not like people dropping stuff they have dragged off the net whenever they feel the urge. It starts making the site a target for dumping crap.

                  If you want to draw peoples attention to something elsewhere on the net then say why (as you did) put in a few relevant quotations (I chopped your quoted down to (at most a few) succinct paragraphs and made it a blockquote) and provide a link. ]
                  • Bob …

                    25 October 2012 at 9:42 pm

                    Iprent, I can understand your point on this, and did re-read the website policy prior to posting as I thought it would be pushing my luck a bit posting the entire letter, however, I felt that taking the first half of the letter (the part you have left above) out (which would have been my preference), would leave McFlock without the context in which the Whanau’s questions around school breakfasts came to the forefront and could sidetrack the debate.
                    As McFlock hasn’t replied, I can only assume that your edit was completed prior to his/her reading the full letter, or s/he decided not to engage in the debate so I’ll leave it.

                    Two words do come to mind through this though, Penny Bright.
                    • lprent …

                      25 October 2012 at 10:00 pm

                      Looked at the letter. Couldn’t see a great few fully on point paras, so left the first part in as a teaser.

                      Penny is on my development list. I wonder how she will like the automatic twitter limit when I have time to finish testing it.
                    • McFlock …

                      25 October 2012 at 10:29 pm

                      Actually missed the comment. Finally soiled myself and read the WO letter – seemed to be a pile of unattributed self-contradictory bullshit that went back to “parental responsibility”, but it was okay because he said it to some murrays and they agreed with him.

                      Everything else has been covered by others here.

                      I feel dirty. Time to scrub my machine.
                    • blue leopard …

                      25 October 2012 at 10:34 pm

                      @McFlock,…you can’t say you weren’t warned…. 😀
                    • McFlock …

                      25 October 2012 at 10:41 pm

                      lol
                      I know, I know…

                      contrary to what some here might think, I do actually feel remiss at disregarding something purely on the basis of its source.

                      The trouble is that every time (like now) I listen to that instinct, I end up having my bias confirmed with extreme weight.
                    • blue leopard …

                      25 October 2012 at 10:51 pm

                      lolz 😀
              • Dv …

                24 October 2012 at 7:44 pm

                Principal!

                We have only the word of whaleoil that the email is genuine.
                • Jenny …

                  25 October 2012 at 6:22 am

                  Even if it was. There is no doubt, even going by this letter, that food in schools would help this family mentioned.

                  Just after the family said that they sometimes had to send their children to their aunty’s when they had no food, – in reply to this right wing imperious bully’s demand; “So are you telling me that you have no real problem having food in the house?”

                  “Yeah, we always have something,” came the reply.

                  This anonymous principle comes across as pompous hectoring self important prat with a political agenda. The fact that he sees himself as some sort of crusader presenting “the alternative message to the socialist propaganda” speaks volumes.

                  No wonder he wouldn’t give his name, in my opinion he is not fit to teach let alone head a school.
                  • Chalupa Batman …

                    25 October 2012 at 7:13 am

                    Yup he spoke against what is agreed upon by the left therefore he must be a bad teacher
                    • KJT …

                      25 October 2012 at 7:22 am

                      No. He denies what is reality for many families, ignoring evidence for ideology. That does make his teaching suspect. He sounds from his post like a smug patronising prat.
                    • One Tāne Huna …

                      25 October 2012 at 7:40 am

                      Chalupa – no – until I got to the line about “socialist propaganda” the email seemed fine(ish) – a personal opinion, not one I agree with, but you get that.

                      But the political reference blows that all out of the water. This man clearly displays his prejudice. What part of “socialist propaganda” are The Lancet’s revelations of infectious disease admissions to our hospitals? Or the clear correlation between family income and education outcomes?

                      Just another witless Tory who thinks he’s entitled to his own facts.
13. ak 13

    24 October 2012 at 4:43 pm

    Romnesia’s gone viral…..ironic, Keynesia far more deserving…..
    • McFlock 13.1

      24 October 2012 at 5:09 pm

      Nah, Romnesia is pretty good, but Dunnokeyo does the lying+ignorant twofer.
14. One Tāne Huna 14

    24 October 2012 at 4:56 pm

    Is there a way to disable the annoying and intrusive “more info” pop-ups that serve no purpose other than to interfere with comments in the middle of authoring them?
    • Lanthanide 14.1

      24 October 2012 at 5:34 pm

      Actually yes, I find these things very annoying too. I’ve just been putting up with it.
15. Rogue Trooper 15

    24 October 2012 at 8:27 pm

    In Our Fathers House are many mansions
    (each has a fire-proof door)
    It is Not made by Great Men
    ( “natural” is not in it)

    wotta ’bout these pills to avoid hangovers?; hangovers being a natural negative reinforcer (take away ya Sunday) freakin science and food and beverage priests again!

    Effective endogenous male contraception has been a long time coming though!

    helpful view
    helpful intention
    helpful speech
    helpful action
    helpful effort
    helpful livelihood
    helpful concentration
    helpful Mindfulness

    the things ya learn in a day; apparently Franciscans are often characterized as “Gods Fools”; well I’ll be a monkeys’ uncle 🙂

    according to a Brother, during the world wars, the information MI5 had on the Franciscans portrayed them as “beneath consideration”; who cares about the politics of lowly monks Right?

    “…ra ra Rasputin….”

    anyway, Sun is Shining and I been gardening.

    btw, a letter from this lady at tlig.org fell out of the heavens today.

    😉
    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      25 October 2012 at 11:14 pm

      Liking it mate.
16. Georgecom 16

    24 October 2012 at 8:33 pm

    Apparently there has been a fairly major sun flare in the past day or so. I guess the climate change deniers will be expecting to see a lift in global temperatures, given that climate change is down to sun flares they say.
17. muzza 17

    24 October 2012 at 9:40 pm

    Harvard Study Finds Fluoride Lowers IQ – Published in Federal Gov’t Journal
    • Dv 17.1

      24 October 2012 at 10:57 pm

      That report from reuters told us very little about the methodology.

      For example how many children, over what time scale, what was the IQ difference and its statistical significance for a start.

      I tried to find the original article but couldn’t.
      • McFlock 17.1.1

        24 October 2012 at 11:47 pm

        This seems to be it, but without charts.
             
        Moderately interesting, but they’re talking about levels of flouride exposure to get high levels of flourosis, only to get a possible 0.45 IQ point decrease. And their review criteria excluded less obscure studies that showed the reverse. 
               
        Possibly adverse, possibly not, large samples seem to bounce negligibly either way.
             
        Not something I’d be stroking off about, myself. But the chemtrailvaccineautism brigade obviously feel confident it’s a serious threat to life, limb and inbreeding.
        • muzza 17.1.1.1

          25 October 2012 at 7:30 am

          Not something I’d be stroking off about, myself. But the chemtrailvaccineautism brigade obviously feel confident it’s a serious threat to life, limb and inbreeding.

          Its inbred central down your way eh McFlock, so no wonder you have decided that “stroking yourself” is the better option

          Your smugness, and self certainty that you understand the world, and whats going on around you, for someone who is possibly bright, is unfortunate, but standard M.O for the average person, so not especially surprising!

          Stroke on!
          • McFlock 17.1.1.1.1

            25 October 2012 at 1:41 pm

            Nah, the students top up the gene pool regularly (and some of us try to reciprocate if one can tolerate The Monkey Bar or The Break).
               
            Yeah, I tend to be smug when I look at studies touted by known nutbars. For example, the first thing one looks for in relation to effects of chemical exposure is a dose-response relationship (at the most serious level, something like “dosage doubled, observed deaths quadrupled”). No levels reported in that descriptive study, so any observable effect might only occur in areas with natural flouridation well above maximum WHO recommendations. At which point all the study says is “exposure to hazardous levels of chemical A might have negative effects, almost as if there were hazards associated with those levels of chemical A”.
                  
            It’s the lack or critical thinking alongside the massive levels of spin that I find funny. Fl might well be an unacceptable hazard. But touting bumper stickers and studies without data tables isn’t going to convince me of that.
            • muzza 17.1.1.1.1.1

              25 October 2012 at 5:19 pm

              Yup, and you will have noticed that all I did was post a link, which was to the reuters site, no commentary, no opinion!

              What I find funny, is people who think that their ‘critical thinking”, and sources allows them to be smug and believe they know best. There are a few on this site, and plenty in real life too, too many actually.

              Generally speaking, the world is getting worse off because attitudes of such people, but that’s the way it will be I guess, as people are generally beyond stupid already, but believe they’re not, thats the clincher!

              Monkey bars, must be a global chain of some sort, most places ive been seem to have one, and interestingly offer up the same sort of “options”.

              Stroke on McFlock, until the next outing I guess!
              • McFlock …

                25 October 2012 at 5:37 pm

                Use of the term “article” implies some manner of editorial review, whereas this came directly from the tinfoil hat brigade. You linked to a wire service press release that can’t even cite an article properly, let alone report its contents with any accuracy.

                Clue: “SOURCE NYS Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, Inc.”
                Another clue: “PRESS RELEASE” occurs twice at the top of the release.
                Another clue: “Reuters is not responsible for the content in this press release” is written just below the headline.

                I assumed that you linked to this drivel because you agreed with its contents. If not, feel free to correct that assumption.
                     
                If my assumption was correct, would you similarly post a press release from the Koch brothers just because it was on Reuters? 
                • Dv …

                  25 October 2012 at 8:23 pm

                  I wondered reason why Reuters disclaimed any responsibilty for the accuracy of the press release!!
                • muzza …

                  27 October 2012 at 1:30 pm

                  I assumed that you linked to this drivel because you agreed with its contents. If not, feel free to correct that assumption

                  It was a poke at Reuters, of which I have made a few lately, around its link/ownership by AP, thats all!

                  Assumption – Common error made by the smug!

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