Open mike 30/07/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 30th, 2012 - 168 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

168 comments on “Open mike 30/07/2012 ”

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  1. BillODrees 1
    30 July 2012 at 6:56 am

    Well paid, well educated Kiwi people in and around the construction and real estate  industry were “present and paid”  but not acting in an accountable or responsible manner while the $10b+ train-wreck that is “leaky homes” was created and executed.  Architects, engineers, surveyors, civil servants, solicitors, accountants, politicians, union bosses, journalists, builders, bankers…the lot.
    Well paid, well educated Kiwi people in and around the finance and investment industry were “present and paid” but not acting in an accountable or responsible manner while the $5b train-wreck that is “finance company collapse” happened over a period of ten years. Financial advisors, accountants, civil servants, solicitors, politicians, union bosses, journalists, reserve bank, bankers…the lot.
    What is wrong? Why do these people not find a way to collectivise and shout “fire” when they see the growing flame?  Where else are they being silent (and paid)? 

    • LynW 1.1
      30 July 2012 at 8:46 am

      Very apt description of the financial debacle too! Just replace a few of the job descriptions. I wonder this often, and as corny as it sounds, for bad things to happen …..

    • Bill 1.2
      30 July 2012 at 9:19 am

      Rule number 1. Do Not Question Authority

      Learn that rule and you can go far.

      • Bored 1.2.2
        30 July 2012 at 2:35 pm

        That rule we all get programmed with at school from the age of 5, and which gets reinforced as we progress through life. When we are asked to be creative we fail because we have been proscribed into only that which we are “allowed” to imagine. Outside of the boundaries lies despair and freedom concurrently, it is deliberately a very scary place.

    • Colonial Viper 1.3
      30 July 2012 at 6:47 pm

      What is wrong? Why do these people not find a way to collectivise and shout “fire” when they see the growing flame? Where else are they being silent (and paid)?

      Hundreds of millions in physical waste and fraud, thousands of families put into misery, and no one gets put away behind bars.

      But steal $500 from your employer and its off to jail you go.

      Consequences exist only for those on the bottom of the heap.

  2. Pete George 2
    30 July 2012 at 7:17 am

    David Clark was interviewed on Q+A yesterday, first on his Miminum Wage bill. He responded with well rehearsed phrases, until…

    SHANE So how much will it cost employers?

    DAVID What will it cost employers? Well, it depends who you are as an employer. Most employers and most small and medium businesses pay their employees more than the minimum wage. They understand-

    SHANE So the overall cost?

    DAVID Well, we don’t know exactly how much it will cost. Um, we understand-

    SHANE You haven’t costed it?

    DAVID I haven’t costed it myself. I understand there has been work done.

    That’s embarrassing. But wait, there was more, on Clark’s Monday-ising bill.

    SHANE And how much is this going to cost? Have you costed this policy?

    DAVID The government says that it will cost 13 cents per worker, per day.

    SHANE No, has Labour costed this?

    DAVID I’ve seen all of their costs, and I’ve done my own calculations on it which suggests it will be considerably less than that. It may even have a net positive effect, and that’s because you get a boost to domestic tourism, you also get more productive workers from having rests. But anyway, even if it costs 13 cents per worker, per day, as the government estimates – and the government officials acknowledge themselves it’s likely to be overestimated – we don’t think that’s too much to pay to make sure people get to spend times with their families. Hard-working Kiwis deserve all the public holidays they get.

    Falling back on the talking points, but no financial substance from Labour’s Revenue spokesperson.

    This is Goffesque – show us where the money would come from David.

    But it’s more than just a new MP who hasn’t done his homework. Clark has been groomed by Labour as a supposed up and coming MP. All they have groomed him to do is to be a loyal reciter.

    Labour seem to be too engrossed in trying to destroy Key and his government and too busy running a perpetual election campaign.

    The minimum wage bill policy was announced a year ago and was a major election focus for Labour. Clark was using the same talking points then that he used in the interview yesterday. But still no substance.

    Clark has to take this on the chin, but this is a whole party problem.Labour embarrassed David Clark.

    • just saying 2.1
      30 July 2012 at 7:26 am

      🙄

      • mike e 2.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 10:39 am

        I saw Q&A program and Shane was being flippant and arrogant.
        David Clark came across reasonably well

        • William Joyce 2.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 1:01 pm

          Shane was the worst I had seen him. Often he is sharp and follows on well. This week he wasn’t listening to either Russell or Gareth, and not to Clark.
          It was like he had questions that were designed to convey a predetermined angle and when the interviewees said otherwise he ignored them.
          Eg. His line was that Morgan and the Greens were at loggerheads.
          Rather, there was a bigger story he could have delved into, if he was listening, was that they weren’t so opposed and there was possibility that the Greens and Morgan could be reviewing the Greens economic policy. Something that has a far greater appeal to the electorate.
          Strong environmental creds with an outside-the-box economic policy that seeks to bring equality with genuine reform of welfare and taxation.

          • Pete George 2.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2012 at 1:13 pm

            I agree, generally he was on his own mission and not actually interviewing much.

            His questioning about ‘why now” for Member’s bills was silly. Monday-ising and marriage equality are ideal types of Member’s bills (the SOE and minimum wage bills are a waste of Member’s Bill slots though).

    • CnrJoe 2.2
      30 July 2012 at 7:36 am

      and PG if you click the link below there’s worser – and its Orahiu-Bouffants main man –

      http://thestandard.org.nz/another-looters-bonus/

      show me the money Mr Keys – and this is a whole country problem.

    • Socialist Paddy 2.3
      30 July 2012 at 8:00 am

      Clark obviously should have adopted the tory approach to debating these sorts of issues.  He should have pulled favorable figures out of his arse and shouted them out continuously to give the impression that he knew what he was talking about.

      Do not confuse intellectual honesty for some sort of weakness.

      Besides there were costings on the mondayising of holidays, no more than 13c per day per worker and probably a lot less.

      The one who should be embarrassed is not David Clark. 

    • felix 2.4
      30 July 2012 at 8:02 am

      🙄

    • weka 2.5
      30 July 2012 at 10:00 am

      🙄

  3. just saying 3
    30 July 2012 at 8:12 am

    From The Political Scientist’ Underneath the Underclass:
    http://www.thepoliticalscientist.org/?p=571#more-571

    (and the links are well worth following – time for me to get some Bageant from the library!).

    …In the end, there’s an underclass simply because ‘we are all individualistic now’.

    Underneath the underclass is simply the logic of today’s world.

    Without wanting to distract attention from the severe plight of those most clearly at the sharp end of this experience, there is a real sense in which we are all experiencing, day to day, the forces that push people into the so-called underclass.

    Lives – and ways of life – are being dismantled constantly. Many in the middle class are simply better able to afford the self-medications and have the wherewithal to put enough strapping around the ‘centre’ to ensure it holds together each day.

    But there’s always the fear that the strapping will come loose. The last word on the scale of the underclass belongs to Joe Bageant…

  4. ad 4
    30 July 2012 at 8:12 am

    Anyone particularly concerned with Armstrong’s interpretation of David Shearer’s polling in the Dominion Post this morning?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/politics/7372821/David-Shearer-has-uphill-battle-to-gain-some-colour

    With everyone waiting for Key’s administration to fall apart, it appears that there isn’t a leader-in-waiting. I guess he feels he still has time on his side.

    • ad 4.1
      30 July 2012 at 8:22 am

      Sorry Small not Armstrong. Edit function wonky.

      • AnnaLiviaPlurabella 4.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 9:16 am

        Ouch! I thought the lack of cut through By Shearer was an Auckland problem only.
        Something is rotten in the state of Labour.

        • Colonial Viper 4.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 11:51 am

          Don’t be concerned, ALP.

          As long as we can manage trends in the polls correctly, patiently wait for the tide to go out on National, and not rock the middle class boat of centrist voters by saying anything radical or unconventional, Labour will glide home to victory in 2014. Right?

    • Socialist Paddy 4.2
      30 July 2012 at 8:54 am

      I just wish Shearer would say something and that the Labour front Bench would not try and be slightly pinker versions of National.

      This National lite stuff is doing my head in. 

      • Rosie 4.2.1
        30 July 2012 at 10:31 am

        You’re not the only one whose head is being done in SP!

        I’ve had a headache since election night in 08. Nothing seems to help. The headache is so large and all consuming that it has even become resistant to the humour cure. Cynicism, anger, despair all worked for a while but now there is nothing. Just a dull relentless ache.

      • Colonial Viper 4.2.2
        30 July 2012 at 11:10 am

        The peoples flag is palest pink

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_People%27s_Flag_Is_Palest_Pink

        A classic for the times.

        “The people’s flag is palest pink
        It’s not as red as you might think.
        White collar workers stand and cheer
        Your Labour government is here.
        We’ll change the country bit by bit
        so no-one will notice it.
        And just to show we’re still sincere
        We’ll sing The Red Flag once a year. “

        • grumpy 4.2.2.1
          30 July 2012 at 2:22 pm

          There is another one…..

          The people’s flag’s not what you think,
          It is not red but bloody pink.
          It is not stained by martyr’s blood
          but Kings Cross harlot’s………………………..

          Might come up on google – dunno.

    • Dr Terry 4.3
      30 July 2012 at 2:21 pm

      Yes, time on his side – just like the NZ cricketers, I guess – how much time does he need? We see that Shearer is “saleable” due to that often rehearsed “gallantry award” from the UK. We are reminded about his past heroics mostly by Shearer himself. He is neither “strong” nor “weak” – just plain “ördinary” (which one can hardly say about Key who is “ëxtraordinarily” crafty, arrogant, devious, unethical!)
      It certainly does appear that Cunliffe is being well held under wraps. Small wonder the Greens (in spite of all prejudices) have assumed leadership in opposition.

  5. Pascal's bookie 5
    30 July 2012 at 8:19 am

    Climate sceptics try their hand at science, with predictable results ( no, really):

    http://bit.ly/P5nuLc

    • Bill 5.1
      30 July 2012 at 9:39 am

      So Koch and others fund a sceptical scientist and his organisation – that is comprised of sceptics – to take a more detailed look at temp stats. More detailed than some orgs had previously done. And they conclude that human emmissions of CO2 track with temp rise. And further, that solar flares, volcanic activity etc simply can’t explain the results.

      And it gets shoved down the page on (as far as I can see) one British broadsheet.

      Call me a cynic. But what ya reckon the prominence of this news story would have been in the event that they had contradicted all the other studies? I mean, okay. I understand the world, universe and everything begins and ends with the olympics. But second lead story, maybe?

      • Chris 5.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 10:25 am

        Well that’s just common sense – of course a study done which backs up the pretty well accepted science does not get as much prominence as if they did a study which contradicts other studies.

        One of the studies is interesting the other is just repeating things everyone knows.

        • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 11:12 am

          Confirmation that the Titanic is still sinking is no longer headline news, because everyone already knows it?

          • Chris 5.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2012 at 11:49 am

            Pretty much – news by definition needs to have new information come to light. It’s not news every time someone repeats the same study and gets the same results.

            • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2012 at 1:46 pm

              Pretty much – news by definition needs to have new information come to light.

              No, news by definition is information coming in from all directions of the globe, North, East, West and South.

              Further, confirmation of something major which has been long suspected is frequently still thought of as being news-worthy.

        • Bill 5.1.1.2
          30 July 2012 at 11:30 am

          But it’s not simply ‘a study which backs up other studies’, is it?

          Crucially, it’s a study carried out by people who refused to acknowledge the validity of all those other studies now publishing results that blow their previous denialist position out of the water. I mean, that’s pretty major in the scheme of things, don’t you think?

          Y’know, a headline something like ‘The Day Denialism Died’ wouldn’t have been so out of order.

    • joe90 5.3
      30 July 2012 at 1:41 pm

      While the wealthy west bickers and spends up large on their respective PR exercises it’s reassuring that some of the poorest people on the planet are facing up to their own climate challenges.

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jul/12/senegal-great-green-wall

      Senegal is one of 11 countries in the Sahel region of Africa looking towards the same solution to the desertification problem: The Great Green Wall. The goal of the project is to plant a wall of trees, 4,300 miles long and 9 miles wide, across the African continent, from Senegal to Djibouti. African leaders hope the trees will trap the sands of the Sahara and halt the advance of the desert.

  6. felix 6
    30 July 2012 at 8:36 am

    So does John Key hate gays or not?

    He voted against Civil Unions so I guess he hated gays in 2004. But last week he didn’t know if he still hated gays or not.

    He’s had long enough to think about it. Time we got an answer.

    • Pascal's bookie 6.1
      30 July 2012 at 8:46 am

      You sush your mouth.

      Key went to the Big Gay Out and made it quite clear that he has an opinion and you can find out what tghat opinion is by buying the book he’ll write when he decides he’s given enough of his good self to you ingrates.

      • felix 6.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 8:59 am

        Ah yeah I think I remember the Big Gay Out. Was that when John was modelling a rugby shirt and he pretended to be a gay?

        Me and my friends we were cracking up laughing because he REALLY looked like a gay, and even though none of us are gays we still thought it was pretty funny.

        Gays should laugh at themselves more. It’s super funny and they’d probably enjoy it.

        • Carol 6.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 11:03 am

          Ah well, the focus groups are in John Key has has given full consideration to the relevant arguments, and decided it won’t impact on his marriage to Bronagh – so self-centred these neolibs!?

          http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823210

          And he’s leaving the space for the Conservative Party to gain a little support from the religious and social conservatives on the right.

          • felix 6.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2012 at 1:13 pm

            Very telling that they think the biggest issue with equal rights is the feelings of the people who already have their rights.

            • Tigger 6.1.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2012 at 4:28 pm

              Exactly Carol and Felix, it doesn’t hurt Key so why should he care? FFS John, you finally get some balls but then they retreat back inside so quickly I can’t even give you credit where it’s due.

              But what happened to Key voting on conscience issues in line with how his electorate felt? Did he poll them over the weekend? Of course not. No, his ‘best friend’ Barack is okay with the gays now so it’s safe for Key to do the same.

    • prism 6.2
      30 July 2012 at 12:48 pm

      Maybe Jokey Hen is the dual-facing Janus in all ways?

  7. Carol 7
    30 July 2012 at 9:15 am

    I wonder if there is/will be any comment on this from the Maori Party.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10823115

    New Zealand’s persistent income gap between Maori and Pacific people and the European majority has widened sharply during the recession.

    A quarterly update on vulnerable families by the NZ Council of Christian Social Services…

    This is partly attributed to job losses being relatively bigger amongst low income people during the recession.

    And the median income of sole parents (regardless of ethnicity) dropped while that of two-parent families rose – did you see that, Paula?!!!!!! So are you going to change your policies in the light of that?

    And this, too, Paula?

    Benefit statistics show Maori have continued to increase as a proportion of all beneficiaries, from 31.5 per cent in June 2008 to 32.4 per cent in June last year and 33.1 per cent last month.

    Pacific beneficiaries have increased more slowly, from 7.6 per cent of the total four years ago to 8.1 per cent last year, and have stabilised at the same level this year.

    But I’m pretty sure Mana will be onto this.

    • marty mars 7.1
      30 July 2012 at 9:33 am

      Thanks Carol for posting that disturbing news.

      This shows what a disgraceful country we are – that we can treat the indigenous people this way. It is time to wake up because people will not take this shit forever.

      But, but – how many medals did we get? But, but – how will we afford our retirement. But, but – it’s the right not the left. But, but – the time for but’s is fast vanishing. I repeat – people will not take this shit forever!!!

      • vto 7.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 12:17 pm

        So what to do marty mars? Jobs is not the answer in the way it used to be as less and less people are needed to do the work. It is about a change in the way every single part of society is provided for from the wealth of these islands.

        Unfortunately, Maori and any other group already near the bottom of the pile are going to have their place worsened I suspect, until this change is complete (or well underway). Bad timing and positioning for those sectors. … some 2c …

        perhaps marty, your suggestion that people will just not take it anymore may hasten this change …

        • LynW 7.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 12:27 pm

          Awaiting the tipping point. How desperate do things need to become?

        • marty mars 7.1.1.2
          30 July 2012 at 2:10 pm

          Nothing will improve unless the illusions are gone and we get attitudinal change. That may occur when the effects of peak oil, climate change, and financial scumduggery hit home but somehow i suspect that it won’t. To be quite blunt – unless this country allows tangata whenua to be equal then this country is destined for nothing.

          I do not adhere to any of the myriad of ‘civil war’ presumptions – simply because the they and us are not able to be differenciated. They are us. We are them. This is the waka and we are on it. Time to front up but that is the one thing this country seems unable to do, yet we must do it.

    • ak 7.2
      30 July 2012 at 10:02 am

      Yes aren’t things going swimmingly for the Slippery cabal.

      In just this morning’s news – from our premier pro-right organ at that:

      Years of “relationship building” for the MP results in WIDENING THE GAPS.

      The high-efficiency Supercity amalgamation results in MASSIVE RATE RISES.

      That talented tall-poppy victim Paul Henry “lost to overseas” FAILS DRAMATICALLY.

      Getting it all out of the way on a monday.

      Don’t expect to see Shearer in the press or on TV again for months.

  8. mike e 8
    30 July 2012 at 10:42 am

    I’m sure one said person is moving to Wellington soon and is looking for a dead cat.
    So he can pussy foot around ohairyu and hopefully get more than a 161 votes.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1
      30 July 2012 at 11:06 am

      lol awesome if true

    • ad 8.2
      30 July 2012 at 11:13 am

      Hopefully a knockout and hardworking candidate that is an improvement on Charles Chauvel. Staggers me that in successive elections Charles could not beat a relatively weak candidate.

  9. Pascal's bookie 9
    30 July 2012 at 11:31 am

    PM changes mind, will support marriage equality afterall. Good for him.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823210

    Expect to see Nat list mps to follow suit, at least enough to get a healthy passing margin and to give cover for electorate mps to vote against.

    • Pete 9.1
      30 July 2012 at 11:45 am

      I consider myself a critic of the PM, but he’s doing the right thing and in this case I think he is motivated by conscience. Although if it was a pressing matter for him, this would have been addressed by a government bill.

      • Carol 9.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 12:08 pm

        Conscience? Nah…. the focus groups are in…. and anyway, it won’t effect Key’s marriage! It’s all about him, you see?

        And it also gives the Conservative Party a potential platform—- at possibly providing something National is lacking… a support partner for 2014.

        • bad12 9.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 12:37 pm

          Yeah, had this conversation with a couple of others on the weekend, some fail to see the elephant in the room as far as the Conservatives are concerned,

          My crude riffmatic says that should the present electoral track Slippery’s National Party are experiencing continue into 2014 and the election National+John(the convicted)Banks+’the Hairdo from Ohariu’+whats left of the ‘Poodles’ won’t quite have the numbers,

          So that leaves us with the ‘whim of Winston’ or the ‘Bible Bashing Conservatives’ if there is to be ,heaven forbid, a third term for this National Government,

          IF National had of gifted Colin Craig a safe electorate seat in 2011 as they did with ACT’s Banks(spit),there would be 4 conservative MP’s in the House now,

          Perhaps a political slip-up by the National Party strategists at the 2011 election hoping that the ‘Epsom chimps tea party’ would give ACT a dead cats bounce in the polls,or, even National have trouble coming to terms with the politics apparently driven by God,(in this case National hardly need fear the conservatives, they are as much if not more so driven by the aquisition of money as those in the National Party are),

          It gave me a bit of a cringe when the Louisa Wall legislation was drawn from the ballot, its divisive issues like what this could have turned into among the broader left that can lead to a loss of support and worse, this is the meat and spuds what give small flakes of the right the oxygen with which they can self promote in the media,

          Thankfully the issue looks as if it will hardly cause a ruffle of the broader lefts feathers, there seems to have been a collective shrug since the legislation was drawn from the ballot of ‘why didn’t this happen 10 years ago,

          However, the elephant in the room, the Conservatives, obviously a potential and multi-seat candidate for coalition with National is still there in the room and the trick here is how to starve ‘them’ of oxygen not allowing ‘them’ access to the whole House so to speak…

          • gobsmacked 9.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2012 at 12:55 pm

            had this conversation with a couple of others on the weekend, some fail to see the elephant in the room as far as the Conservatives are concerned

            Don’t be coy, mate. The gulity “couple” (not yet married) were Pascal’s Bookie and er, gobsmacked.

            We not only saw the elephant, we put it under the microscope, and wrote a bloody long book about it (halfway through the “gay marriage thread, if anyone can be bothered).

            Dunne and Hide gave National free bonus seats. Banks’ “bonus” seat came at a cost to National. Craig may also give National bonus seats, at an even bigger cost to National. That’s the point at issue. You may not agree, that’s your call … but please don’t keep repeating that we “don’t get it”.

            • bad12 9.1.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2012 at 1:30 pm

              Feel free to blow your own little egotistical trumpet won’t you ‘mate’,

              The real,(and in my opinion),only question you need ask yourself = IF as we approach the 2014 election National’s own polling shows that it will lack enough support to form a Government for a 3rd term AND the conservatives are polling at or above the levels of Party Vote they accrued at the 2011 election (2.6%), will National do a deal with the Conservative’s Leader for a wink and a nod to the National Party faithful so as to gift the Conservatives a safe electorate seat,

              IF that choice to put it more starkly is one of Opposition or gift a seat to the Conservatives then i suspect National will fall all over themselves to gift such a safe National held electoral seat,

              You may be naive enough to believe that National will not do so fearing loss of electoral support from its core vote, but, National will by the 2014 election be ‘down’ to it’s core vote anyway and the core Tory vote has been well bought and such a ‘loss of support’ will only materialize as a fiction within your head…

              • gobsmacked …
                30 July 2012 at 1:52 pm

                If you think it’s the “only question”, then of course you’re wrong, but at least you should follow the logic of your own argument.

                What else should Labour or the Greens do, to keep out Colin Craig? (“the only question”, as you put it).

                Any other mildly progressive moves they should shy away from? How about – Shearer promises to repeal “anti-smacking” law? That would take the wind out of the Conservatives’ sails.

                Surely the essential point is whether the opposition should be driven by fear of a National/Con deal, or a National/ACT deal, or any other deal they want to cook up. Because they will do what they want anyway. Labour/Greens can’t control that. They can, however, piss off their OWN supporters by running scared of Colin Craig.

                So a bit more than “one question”, really.

                • bad12 …
                  30 July 2012 at 2:31 pm

                  The head of that pin you constantly dance upon has you constantly changing the subject, you seem to have conceded the debate vis a vis National gifting the Conservatives a safe electorate seat at the 2014 election,

                  That was the point i was trying to make, point made, expending my energies chasing a debate round various puffs of steam emanating from your cranial cavity wasn’t my intention for the afternoon,

                  Still isn’t…

                  • gobsmacked …
                    30 July 2012 at 3:12 pm

                    I simply asked questions based on your assumption. To try and get an answer. To test the logic of the argument. The same as yesterday. It’s called debating the issue.

                    One more time … Do you think the Conservatives will bring a net gain for the National bloc? If so, how will they achieve this? And at what cost?

                    Repeat … “net”.

                    • bad12 …
                      30 July 2012 at 3:37 pm

                      All your present inquiries have been well addressed in my previous comments upon the subject,

                      If you cannot deduce the answer to your queries from those previous comments then i can only suggest you avail yourself of a course in remedial reading…

            • Carol 9.1.1.1.1.2
              30 July 2012 at 1:31 pm

              Well, I can see both sides of this. National is short on options for future partners, so they have nothing to lose, and possibly everything to gain, by throwing Craig’s lot a bone.

              But it depends on whether its as divisive as the Cons hope. They seem just a s likely to shoot themselves in the foot, and it seems most people, including most Nat MPs are now for marriage equality.

              Certainly the website launched by the Cons and friends is off to a bad start – site crashed soon after launch, they are using a song by a US band that objects and wants it pulled.

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10823203

              And on RNZ today they reported that a pro-marriage equality campaigner said most of the stuff on the site was US-based, and didn’t seem to have much representation of Kiwi views on the bill.

          • ad 9.1.1.1.2
            30 July 2012 at 1:00 pm

            Not sure if it’s an elephant, but it’s unnerving to see the course of the 2014 election already being algorhythmed into the extremes of those who are not even in yet and may never be, when all it would take in fact is a 4% gain from Labour to obviate all of that coulda-woulda-shoulda on the margins.

            If the Greens can do this well in the media, why can’t Labour? Would not a large part of the country simply wipe the Conservatives and Act and New Zealand First out if Shearer and Norman announced today: we are forming a coalition, right now?

            Act as if they were a government-in-wainting, not lunch-in-waiting?

            If Labour are doing what Bad 12 is calculating, they are enabling the fleas to rule the dog. Time to get a bigger dog.

            • gobsmacked 9.1.1.1.2.1
              30 July 2012 at 1:10 pm

              Ad + 1

              Labour/Greens versus “hydra-headed monster”. Throw Key’s words back at him.

              Anyone for Key/Banks/Dunne/Turia/Peters/Craig/McGillycuddy … ?

            • bad12 9.1.1.1.2.2
              30 July 2012 at 1:48 pm

              Trouble for Labour tho is it appears to now be a party of, for, and by the middle class and the middle in terms of gaining electoral traction is one hell of a crowded space,

              Can you really see Labour gaining from either ‘blue collar’ or the ‘beneficiary belt’ when we know that raising the age of superannuation is what Labour is offering as policy to the ‘blue collar workers’ and the beneficiary belt is being offered (again) the chance for Labour to undo none of the damage done by the Slippery National Government and thus set them up for even harsher lives post the next Labour Government,

              We have had the BIG democratization of the party by Labour, and, i have to wonder whether Clayton wrote it, so i would expect POLICY that differentiates Labour from National will be next egg for hatching,

              As far as announcements over Government i would be just as happy for the Greens to sit out-side of Government with a far harder push on that party’s SOCIAL JUSTICE policy’s, being tarred with the same brush as Labour by being in a formal Government with them might prove electorally costly to the Greens…

              • Bored …
                30 July 2012 at 1:58 pm

                Thanks Bad for summing up the non reality of the positions above re possible election results.

                If Labour actually stood by their core principles and made the correct noises debates about coalitions would be meaningless. Instead Labour are lead by a guitar strumming middle class fellow with no teeth to keep the grasping middle classes happy, a gay guy also with no teeth to keep the sectoral interest groups happy, and a finance spokesman to the right of Milton Friedman to keep the “markets” happy.

  10. Jackal 10
    30 July 2012 at 12:13 pm

    More homelessness under National

    Heatley’s legacy will be one of social failure for generations to come…

    • Bored 10.1
      30 July 2012 at 2:16 pm

      I was wondering how many rental houses Heatley owns or has trust interests etc into?

  11. gobsmacked 11
    30 July 2012 at 12:34 pm

    Today’s Stuff poll is more useful than most, because it looks below the surface (the usual “party vote” numbers):

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/poll-2012

    Look at the bottom left of your screen. Over 50% like David Shearer. Less than 20% think he’s a leader.

    So the Labour PR campaign has “worked”. Voters like that nice bloke on the telly. Is he something to do with politics?

    • Colonial Viper 11.1
      30 July 2012 at 2:03 pm

      Less than 20% think he’s a leader.

      Someone needs to push the gallantry award and war zone lines a bit harder, then.

      • just saying 11.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 2:24 pm

        Gads I hope you’re being sarcastic CV – Shearers rambling anecdotes of derring-do are becoming the butt of many jokes. It’s also risky to keep emphasising his time at the UN imo. The team likes to paint it as humanitarianism, but shearer was a school teacher who became rich and powerful as an administrator on the backs of the poor, much as the new CEOs of charities are (unpopularly) doing in contrast to the old public service model. He was never an aid worker, he didn’t give anything up, on the contrary, and I suspect he is an adrenaline junky and would have sought out danger to fill a personal need, no matter what he was doing.

    • Frank Macskasy 11.2
      30 July 2012 at 2:46 pm

      That Fairfax/Ipsos poll is nowhere as reassuring for National as Tracy Watkin would have us believe. Quite the contrary, with a simple bit of arithmetic and projection, the conclusion seems hard to miss that the Nats are in serious trouble; http://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/on-course-for-a-change-in-government-part-rua/

      If I were a taxpayer-funded National Party strategist I’d be sh*tt*ng bricks by now…

      • bad12 11.2.1
        30 July 2012 at 3:03 pm

        Aha, the slow imperceptible slide had already begun then Slippery handed Hekia the Education Portfolio and the name of a good Doctor for anti-depressant medication,

        All hell then broke loose,(although the mainstream media are still playing the game of show National from the high end of the margin of error and Labour from the bottom)…

  12. captain hook 12
    30 July 2012 at 12:37 pm

    Time for David Shearer to learn some Merle Haggard adn Waylon Jennings tunes!

  13. prism 13
    30 July 2012 at 12:43 pm

    To get more tax in an affordable way the Tobin tax on each financial transaction tax seems a good idea. This would include GST on consumer items too being financial transactions. The spread of the tax would be wide and because of volume bringing a good tax return this would enable GST to be lowered making it less important as a means of government income and less onerous for us all. The burden on consumers and on active domestic trading by ordinary people would be lessened and the economy would be more resilient.

    When I do a financial transaction through my credit card, there is a charge to the seller, who may pass that on to me, and then there is an interest charge by the credit company to me. Private business can charge per transaction so why can’t government business tax be collected on each financial transaction?

    • bad12 13.1
      30 July 2012 at 2:18 pm

      Labour always ‘on the ball’ have decided on a ‘mild’ Capital Gains Tax which for some really f**king weird reason the likes of David Parker seems to think will address the over-inflated housing prices both as a buy and as a rental,

      Only 10 or so years too late on that issue and fast being overtaken by the crisis of supply and demand in the rental market where the low wage workers are now spending 50+% of their wages on private rentals thus providing an even bigger drag on the internal economy as their disposable income shrinks…

      • Bored 13.1.1
        30 July 2012 at 2:27 pm

        The whole thing is not pretty as we still have a housing bubble in terms of the price to income ratios, propped up by housing demand that is a result of immigration policies and a lack of forward investment planning.

        Our current scenario resembles the limited housing availability and bad housing standards of the 1920s, also a time of “market rentals” and asset bubbles. The end result was the State housing boom of the 1rst Labour government that also enabled the rise of Fletchers to economic prominence. From an economic perspective we need to go there again, it makes far more sense than the bailing out of private investment funds such as SCF who should have been left to go to the wall. How many houses could the money given SCF fund holders have built?

        • bad12 13.1.1.1
          30 July 2012 at 2:52 pm

          Agree with you there!!! another mess created by Neo-liberal Bullshit being imported into our country and economy by those who should have been confined to an institution other than the Parliament,

          The ‘fix’ is simple, print the dollars necessary to build the high density housing needed in the places of highest demand and rent these out at 25% of income to all who apply based upon greatest need gets in first and don’t stop until there are housing units for which a tenant cannot be found,

          Rental Housing based upon a rental of 25% of household income should be available to everyone no matter what their income is,

          The only discrimination should be simply based upon the most need being catered to first and spreading the tenancy base far wider than just the ‘beneficiary belt’ to include everyone who applies allows for the wealthier tenants to be subsidizing the less wealthy…

        • Colonial Viper 13.1.1.2
          30 July 2012 at 3:08 pm

          The whole thing is not pretty as we still have a housing bubble in terms of the price to income ratios, propped up by housing demand that is a result of immigration policies and a lack of forward investment planning.

          And don’t forget cheap mortgage debt, which is another crucial ingredient to keeping the whole ponzi scheme going.

          • Bored 13.1.1.2.1
            30 July 2012 at 3:40 pm

            Interestingly the whole mortgage Ponzi which underpins the housing fiasco can be broken by state investment…the state does its own fractional banking and sets up a local supply system to deliver…no money goes offshore to banksters. The upside benefit of state investment is that:
            * landlords get placed under rental pressure.
            * to compete landlords have to raise standards.
            * private property values diminish.
            * housing values mainly reflect the building / replacement cost.

            It would not take a lot of state investment to send landlords some “market signals” on rental prices.

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.2.1.1
              30 July 2012 at 4:25 pm

              the state does its own fractional banking

              The state doesn’t need to do fractional banking – it just needs to print the money balanced by taxes.

              It would not take a lot of state investment to send landlords some “market signals” on rental prices.

              Initially maybe but over time state investment would replace private investment thus getting rid of the rentiers altogether.

              • Bored …
                30 July 2012 at 7:57 pm

                Having the state print dollars based upon tax take (that may not eventuate) is not as easy as creating credit by fractional banking (which should only be done by the state). Printing dollars can be fraught with inflationary pressure, having said that you could never print enough to keep up with bankster ponzis…..

                The reason you allow a private rental market is because there will always be some prats for whom state houses wont be “good” enough for, plus I am a vindictive bugger when it comes to landlords and high house prices…I want to see both suffer a reality check. You do this by having enough state houses to collapse their market.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  30 July 2012 at 8:50 pm

                  Having the state print dollars based upon tax take…

                  I’d do it the other way around – base the taxes on the printing. It doesn’t have to be precise over a yearly basis just balanced on average.

                  The reason you allow a private rental market…

                  I wouldn’t prevent it same as I wouldn’t prevent home ownership. I’d just make it so that private rental or home ownership would be more expensive than renting from the state. As the money to build the state houses was printed with 0% interest they don’t need a massive return – just enough to cover maintenance.

                  That last is true of all state funding which is, IMO, another reason why the capitalists don’t like the state. If the state was being rational there’d never be any reason for private investment which would remove the power that the capitalists presently have over us. The economy run for the benefit of the community rather than enriching a few.

    • Rosie 13.2
      30 July 2012 at 2:31 pm

      Oops, didn’t click reply to Prism’s word on fair vs unfair tax, and my response in agreement is down there at 15 underneath he who can not be named. To add to my initial comment, the online live chat with Shearer was shamelessly trolled. JK fan girl Tracy Watkins probably got herself on the moderating team.

  14. Pete George 14
    30 July 2012 at 1:06 pm

    David Shearer has just done a live online chat on Stuff. Reasonable effort from him, up front on a number of questions, shows a sense of humour.

    Do you believe New Zealand should become a republic?

    Yes. It’s not our top priority but I’d like to see NZ stand up for itself in the world and have its own flag without someone else’s in the top left hand corner.

    Were you surprised by the latest poll that said people didn’t feel they knew you?

    No not really. New Zealanders take time to get to know people and to trust them. The onus is on me to get out there and earn their trust and their support.

    More David Shearer chats Stuff.

  15. Rosie 15
    30 July 2012 at 1:07 pm

    Indeed Prism. This is exactly what I asked David Shearer on the live chat on Stuff.co.nz at midday, albeit in a less eloquent way. That question wasn’t however put on line. Instead there were plenty of mindless questions such as “Boxers, briefs or commando?” “Have you ever been shot?” (WTF?) and some one asked “Why are you always so negative about anything the governemnt says?”…..
    There was a couple of relevent questions, inlcuding one from a Standard poster but it was generally incredibly cringe worthy.

  16. Chris 16
    30 July 2012 at 1:09 pm

    Comment from maggie barry in an interview in June 2011 “I’m not naive. I would hope I wouldn’t get into profoundly dangerous territory whereby I’d endanger my political career from naive utterances.” Ha Ha bonk!
    .Just laughed my head off.

    • muzza 16.1
      30 July 2012 at 2:15 pm

      Barry, also does not pay close enough attention when responding to emails..

      She is making many errors, which is the logical outcome of having been used as a bad joke, and then thinking one was elected based on any sort of skills.

      The woman is a loud mouthed fool, which means perfect National material

  17. William Joyce 17
    30 July 2012 at 1:20 pm

    Headline on Stuff “PM laughs off Rich List loss”
    I am sick of his dismissive attitude to issues. He is forever saying he is “relaxed” about something he should be  emphatically concerned about.
    The man is so god damn relaxed the man is manifestly flaccid.
    Our great flaccid leader. A flaccid member.
     

    • bad12 17.1
      30 July 2012 at 2:42 pm

      Yeah down a cool 5 million, for the head Capitalist that must have been one BIG ouchy, seems it’s not only His political fortunes that are on the slide then…

    • Colonial Viper 17.2
      30 July 2012 at 2:45 pm

      And 43% of those polled still think he is working for “all New Zealanders”.

    • prism 17.3
      31 July 2012 at 9:18 pm

      William Joyce
      I think flaccid is the word of the year for Jokey Hen. It should be welded to his name so its always mentioned like invaded Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction’.

  18. Tracey 18
    30 July 2012 at 1:54 pm

    I’m getting confused.

    Last week I thought I read a newspaper article stating Mr Key supports gay marriage but would vote according to his Helensville constituents. Today he says he is going to vote for the bill and can’t see him changing his mind? Did he poll Hellensville over the weekend????

    this from May 2012

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10805945

    and he repeated it, or the paper repeated it over the weekend!

    • bad12 18.1
      30 July 2012 at 2:11 pm

      It’s just Slippery being Slippery, never tell it as it really is and change that to something else on any given day,

      Bronagh probably told Him how He was going to vote when He got home for the weekend…

  19. mickysavage 19
    30 July 2012 at 3:40 pm

    Maori TV’s Tina Wickliffe has just tweeted “BREAKING:  Waitangi Tribunal recommends the Crown ought not to proceed with asset sales.”  A rather big headache for John Key there in the making …

  20. captain hook 20
    30 July 2012 at 4:07 pm

    who wants a bet?
    in five years after it is sold Mighty River Power will be de-listed.

  21. Pete 21
    30 July 2012 at 4:42 pm

    Anybody know what’s been going on over at Pundit? The site’s been down all day.

  22. Draco T Bastard 22
    30 July 2012 at 4:50 pm

    And it appears that Labour has just shown itself to be as unprincipled as National.

    Quite apart from introducing loopholes you could drive a busload of lobbyists through, this also undermines the objectives of the bill. “National, patriotic, religious, philanthropic, charitable, scientific, artistic, social, professional, or sporting” NGOs – and unions – are lobbyists just like everybody else, and therefore their lobbying should be disclosed. Trying to exempt them simply makes it look like Labour thinks the rules shouldn’t apply to their mates.

    I find that I’m not really surprised.

    • Bill 22.1
      30 July 2012 at 5:59 pm

      Personally I’d love unions to get out of parliament and back on to the streets. Too much (all?) of the favourable legislation that came post 2000 was a result of backroom deals/lobbying. Meaning that union members were sidelined to a huge degree and subject to union heirarchies ‘negotiating’ improvements to conditions. Why does that matter? Cause you feel more attached to those things you have fought for… and that makes it much more difficult for somebody to come along and take them away.

    • Colonial Viper 22.2
      30 July 2012 at 6:37 pm

      It is crap to allow private commercial interests to hold the same status as organisations like charities which are purely focussed on societal and social benefit.

      This fucking shit has to stop.

      • Draco T Bastard 22.2.1
        30 July 2012 at 7:05 pm

        As lobbying has an effect on government it should be transparent – doesn’t matter who it is. Putting in place exceptions is counter to that truth.

  23. captain hook 23
    30 July 2012 at 5:27 pm

    Hello out there.
    Who read the item in the Sunday Star Times on Sunday about the doctor who said Tony Ryall should start asking the real people instead of relying on Spivs.
    The Standard must get its ass into gear and get real instead of the tiresome reliance on semi-beltway issues that the masses just ignore.

    • Bill 23.1
      30 July 2012 at 6:04 pm

      I might have a degree of sympathy with the view you express (a lot of the navel gazing parliament stuff bores the hell outta me). But know what? There’s a ‘contribute’ facility that allows you to submit posts if you feel it’s important to diminish the prevalence of beltway or semi-beltway issues.

  24. Pete 24
    30 July 2012 at 6:07 pm

    Looks like public transport in Christchurch will continue to be buses.

    As a Dunedinite I would caution against a covered stadium if it hasn’t been fully costed.

  25. Half Crown Millionare 25
    30 July 2012 at 6:51 pm

    I hear on TVNZ1 news tonight Kiwi Rail is having many on going issues with the engines and rolling stock which they have purchased from China. Like the brakes on the rolling stock wont work, and it is costing them heaps. Ha ha fucking ha, when are these right wing fuckwits going to learn that THE market does not deliver every time if ever. All those engines and rolling stock could have been manufactured in the old Hillside Works they would have worked, employed lots of tax payers and would not have cost overseas funds.

    There is truth in the saying The National party and the right wing fuckwits could not organise a piss up in a brewery

    And this is an excellent example.

  26. PJ 26
    30 July 2012 at 6:58 pm

    Dear John,

    So, the same-sex marriage bill is decided by a conscience vote, right, and you, who voted AGAINST the Civil Union bill, also a conscience vote, now indicate that your ‘conscience’ will allow you to vote FOR same sex unions. Which (in terms of the bill passing) is great, I’m in full support of the bill and it passing. Well done John! But that leads me to my question….

    Which is… What does that say about your ‘conscience’ John? I mean, I honestly don’t believe for a second that you’ve undergone a transformation in your views on this issue since 2004 and the bill you voted against then (Its a view that typically changes generationally rather than in the minds and hearts of existing voters). And, the way you’re playing it leads me to believe that you would like me to believe that you’re fairly ‘relaxed’ on it, and that it is overall of little consequence. An unlikely way to play it for someone who’s ‘conscience’ has changed so dramatically in such a relatively short span of time.

    And, that’s the thing John. ‘Conscience’. Words are important John, or at least I believe they are, they allow us a window onto what our representatives represent, they convey and conscience…conscience John is one of those important words. Especially, ESPECIALLY John when you have chosen (remember now John, choices are your thing) to become a politician, someone elected by the people to represent the people.

    But, and here I have to come back to why I started this letter as I watched you looking so calculatedly relaxed on the evening news John, do you even have any ‘views’ to undergo transformation? Do you have any principles that got you into the job of influencing so many peoples lives? Hell, you even claim to not remember where you stood on the ’81 Springbok Tour. I wasn’t even born and I know where I ‘stood’ on the ’81 Springbok Tour, John.

    Whatever the old internal polling is telling you is the ‘mood of middle NZ’, that’s where you’ll set your plate eh John? Sounds like a pretty good method for clinging to power, but bloody hopeless for anything like the visionary leadership or far-reaching innovative policy that might get us out of the mess that you and your old mates set in motion. Or, ironically, anything approaching a ‘brighter future’.

    Signed
    Eternally Disappointed
    of Kingsland.

  27. mike e 27
    30 July 2012 at 7:01 pm

    The engines are made in Germany But most of the rest of the superstructure are made in China .
    Apparently these trains can not reach full speed because the suspension is inferior.
    This is another National disaster.

    • Colonial Viper 27.1
      30 July 2012 at 7:24 pm

      Every single unit out of China has had to undergo unplanned and unbudgeted refitting by KiwiRail in order to correct major safety problems.

  28. Pete George 28
    30 July 2012 at 7:01 pm

    David Parker has posted a detailed statement about his environmental credentials and also his opinion interspersed with Labour positions on mining and drilling.

    I seek leave to make a personal explanation …..

    It’s a good read.

    • Te Reo Putake 28.1
      30 July 2012 at 7:06 pm

      🙄

    • QoT 28.2
      30 July 2012 at 7:50 pm

      If you have to preface explaining what you really meant, when your words were fairly unambiguous, with a long whinge about how much you love tramping … I mean seriously, if “explaining is losing” in politics, what the hell is all that?

      • Bill 28.2.1
        30 July 2012 at 8:36 pm

        “…what the hell is all that?”

        An arsewipe presenting itself as highest grade (organic and died from natural causes guv) vellum?

        I mean, this is the guy who maintained that rivers should be clean enough to swim in no matter how hard he was pressed on the state of potable water. Anyway, apart from he the fact he apparently led or was indispensible to every environmental crusade in NZ since….forever. What’s he suggesting here when he says:

        As I said when interviewed, there is legitimate public concern about deep sea drilling arising from the Gulf of Mexico catastrophe and the limitations of New Zealand’s response to the Rena shipwreck. We must ensure that world’s best practice is followed and that the safety devices needed in the event of mishap are available and can be deployed. Even then, it may be that the deepest of wells are too risky and ought not to proceed.

        Kind of jumps out that he’s obviously not concerned about deep sea drilling – that’s just a pesky ‘public’ concern. And is he suggesting that the technology for dealing with major rig blow outs exists? Those ‘safety devices’ he mentions. What are they? Maybe he’s imagining a factory full of pixies magicking something up? Or maybe he imagines that oil will be sponged up in the way he fancies his ‘seeking of leave’ will be sponged by all and sundry?

        And then there’s the mention of this ‘best practice’. What’s that? There have been (thankfully) precious few precedents for this ‘best practice’ to be developed….utilizing ‘safety devices’ (that don’t exist).

        And the doozie. Deep sea drilling will go ahead unless it is shown to be too risky. Precautionary principle anyone? What happened to our heroic crusader for the environment that he shys away from insisting that safety is proved beyond any reasonable doubt before any drilling gets underway? Why merely ‘may’ it be that only ‘the deepest of wells’ that ‘ought not to’ (not, won’t) proceed’?

        Okay. Disclaimer. I don’t like the guy and have found him to be about as disingenuous as they come.

  29. Logie97 29
    30 July 2012 at 7:13 pm

    Close-Up and Sainsbury.
    Apparently people living in Auckland could hear him talking about the plans for Christchurch – not on television, but by sticking their heads out the window.
    When is the prat going to learn to use his lapel microphone and stop shouting?
    Better still, when are TVNZ going to replace him …?

  30. captain hook 30
    30 July 2012 at 7:27 pm

    as Captain Kirk asked him,”what are you hiding behind that moustache Mirk?”.

  31. Anne 31
    30 July 2012 at 7:46 pm

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/262224921-shearer-undergoing-media-training

    At last!

    Why wasn’t it done at the start of the year? It’s not easy to handle the media and few can do it without some in-depth training. So, why has it taken so long? Where was the strategy team? I’m a loyal Labour supporter but it’s been hard sometimes…

  32. RedBaron 32
    30 July 2012 at 8:26 pm

    I’d like to think that tomorrow the Standard will acknowledge the birthday of Milton Friedman who was born July 31 1912 – 100 years ago.The man whose thoughts and theories have probably caused more human misery than any other single individual in history……
    What a legacy!

  33. Colonial Viper 33
    30 July 2012 at 11:50 pm

    Uganda ebola makes it to capital, outbreak kills 14

    Ahhh this is bad. I understand its made it to the capital, Kampala.

    Further, reports that this strain of ebola is less virulent are also really bad, as the mortality rate is still very high, but the disease is less obvious in its early stages so it can spread further before causing alarm.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/29/world/africa/uganda-ebola-virus/index.html

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