Open mike 30/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:45 am, July 30th, 2014 - 256 comments
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256 comments on “Open mike 30/07/2014 ”

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  1. Paul 1
    30 July 2014 at 7:01 am

    If you are still needing a reason to vote Green, here is evidence of why we need to act on climate change urgently.
    What do we want to leave for our children and grandchildren?

    “Southern Alps snow, ice vanishing

    Retreating glaciers and uncovered rocks evidence of swift change in climate with implications for sea level.

    A third of the permanent snow and ice on the Southern Alps has vanished in less than four decades, according to an analysis of aerial surveys.

    In an article published on Australian website The Conversation, three Kiwi researchers describe the story of the alps’ disappearing ice as very dramatic.

    The analysis, by climate scientist Dr Jim Salinger, Otago University Professor Emeritus Blair Fitzharris and glaciologist Dr Trevor Chinn, follows on from a paper published by Dr Chinn last year documenting the retreat of our postcard glaciers.”

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11301095

    “We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children”

    • Chooky 1.1
      30 July 2014 at 10:09 am

      +100…

    • Tom Bradford 1.2
      30 July 2014 at 1:53 pm

      Compared with the now unstoppable collapse of the West Antartic Ice Sheet, the ice disappearing from the Southern Alps is piffling. And there is nothing the Greens can do about either even if they had a 100% majority in Parliament so you might as well vote National, grab your share of the money-go-round and party while you still can.

      http://time.com/96173/antarctic-glacier-loss-is-unstoppable-study-says

      • blue leopard 1.2.1
        30 July 2014 at 2:03 pm

        There are things that can be done to mitigate disasters.

        For example I live in a coastal area and yet there are still people building substantial houses and businesses within metres of a coastline that has issues with eroding storm damage . People who invest their money into buildings and businesses on the coastline complain bitterly about RMA regulations yet are the first to go crying to Council to fix the problem when a storm occurs. This type of behaviour costs Councils a lot of time and money and I repeat: the people conducting themselves in such ways are the same people who are not prepared to create distance between the shoreline and their buildings from the outset. It is bloody ridiculous.

        • Tom Bradford 1.2.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 3:23 pm

          “There are things that can be done to mitigate disasters.” – Blue leopard.

          Go tell it to the President.

          US President B. M. Obama, 14/6/2014

          “[S]ince this is a very educated group, you already know the science. Burning fossil fuels release carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide traps heat. Levels of carbon dioxide in our atmosphere are higher than they’ve been in 800,000 years. …

          We know the trends. The 18 warmest years on record have all happened since you graduates were born. We know what we see with our own eyes. Out West, firefighters brave longer, harsher wildfire seasons; states have to budget for that. Mountain towns worry about what smaller snowpacks mean for tourism. Farmers and families at the bottom worry about what it will mean for their water. In cities like Norfolk and Miami, streets now flood frequently at high tide. Shrinking icecaps have National Geographic making the biggest change in its atlas since the Soviet Union broke apart.

          So the question is not whether we need to act. The overwhelming judgment of science, accumulated and measured and reviewed over decades, has put that question to rest. The question is whether we have the will to act before it’s too late. For if we fail to protect the world we leave not just to my children, but to your children and your children’s children, we will fail one of our primary reasons for being on this world in the first place."

          http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/14/1307018/-President-Obama-s-remarks-at-UC-Irvine-commencement-ceremony

          US President B. M. Obama, 17/7/2014

          “As part of President Obama’s all-of-the-above energy strategy to continue to expand safe and responsible domestic energy production, BOEM…today announced that the bureau will offer more than 21 million acres offshore Texas for oil and gas exploration and development in a lease sale that will include all available unleased areas in the Western Gulf of Mexico Planning Area.”

          http://www.boem.gov/press07172014a

          Do you wonder that I’ve given up?

          • blue leopard 1.2.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 4:24 pm

            You shouldn’t solely base your views on what America is doing. They are screwed politically just now.

            We are a much smaller country with a different political system (namely our voting system). We have more opportunity to get a shift happening. The more countries, such as ourselves, that take rational stances toward the problem – the more pressure there will be on America and other more captured countries to make a shift.

            • Tom Bradford 1.2.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 7:15 pm

              “The more countries, such as ourselves, that take rational stances toward the problem – the more pressure there will be on America and other more captured countries to make a shift.”

              Er, yeah. Like Europe’s Green powerhouse Germany, now importing coal from the USA to burn for power generation so it can abandon nice ‘clean’ nuclear.

              http://e360.yale.edu/feature/on_the_road_to_green_energy_germany_detours_on_dirty_coal/2769

              But my original point in response to the thread starter was that voting Green in New Zealand isn’t going to make any difference to the loss of snow and ice on the Southern Alps as that problem doesn’t originate in New Zealand.

              “The more countries, such as ourselves, that take rational stances toward the problem – the more pressure there will be on America and other more captured countries to make a shift.”

              And exactly how many countries are taking that rational stance? China, India, the EU, Australia.

              The hot air emanating from politicians about tackling Global Warming is just adding to the problem.

              • blue leopard …
                30 July 2014 at 10:10 pm

                @ Tom Bradford

                Great article you linked to there. It was really informative, thanks.

                Yes your original point was that voting Greens wasn’t going to make any difference to the snow and ice loss on the Southern Alps and I responded by saying that having a Greener approach works on many different levels for example as it stands the RMA, which has really good guidelines for mitigating disaster, is being undermined by our current government. This means that people are less likely to be personally affected by the very real issues that are likely to arise in the not so distant future due to climate and pollution issues. Their behaviour and attitudes, therefore, don’t change and this not only means any sea-level rise will cause more disruption than it needs to, it also lowers peoples’ awareness of the issue and drops any pressure for change on a larger scale.

                I am not too informed about what countries are taking strong actions on the issue of climate change (hopefully someone who is will jump in … Jenny? I am vaguely aware of perhaps Scandinavian countries, maybe the Netherlands? doing well with greener technology) – it is a pity to hear that about Germany re coal – however that article does indicate that they haven’t given up and perhaps see the use of coal as a way of avoiding nuclear power while they certainly sound like they are investing a lot into finding alternatives. So it is not like they have given up on their aim.

                When countries become successful with Greener technologies – they are bound to catch on. We have an opportunity to be part of that process. Moreso than larger countries.

                One thing for sure – simply following those countries that are captured by big money and are accordingly not making sincere efforts in that regard certainly won’t address the issue. Nor will defeatism.

      • adam 1.2.2
        30 July 2014 at 4:27 pm

        Your logic is flawed Tom, if you really believe nothing can be done – Then you should have not commented here, and should be sniffing coke off Keys ass.

        • phillip ure 1.2.2.1
          30 July 2014 at 5:22 pm

          “..and should be sniffing coke off Keys ass…”

          heh..!

        • Tom Bradford 1.2.2.2
          30 July 2014 at 7:24 pm

          I don’t believe nothing CAN be done. I strongly suspect nothing WILL be done, until it is far too late to prevent disaster. After all, we are already locked in to a 2 – 5’c temperature rise and a minimum 15ft sea-level rise and what has actually been done to ameliorate worse?.

          However I’m sorry my expressed opinion disturbed the harminious circle-wank you clearly come here for and won’t waste my time putting up alternative views that might frighten the horses, as I don’t come to The Standard to be insulted.

          • blue leopard 1.2.2.2.1
            30 July 2014 at 10:15 pm

            There are others that express similar concerns on the Standard that you have, Tom – I hope you don’t get completely put off commenting here. I enjoy a variety of opinions as I am sure others do too.

          • lprent 1.2.2.2.2
            30 July 2014 at 10:25 pm

            I don’t think that staying down at 2C by the end of the century has about as much hope of happening as a icicle has of surviving the night in hell. Pretty much on track for about 4C or higher and I’d be assuming something closer to 15 metres sea level rise than 5 metres after the WAIS starts getting undercut and lubricated. I suspect from the previous deglaciation evidence, that once it starts, it is very fast emptying the basin area of ice and a bit slower after that.

            But those are pretty minor provided you don’t live in the tropics, on an atoll or in a coastal plain like Bangladesh. They take time enough for people to adapt.

            It is the rapid weather pattern shifts that are going to be much more problematic. Those will impact directly on to food production. They will do so much earlier than sea level rises or heat prostration. Most people fail to understand exactly how reliant we as a civilization are on the settled weather of the current interglacial in our farming practices.

  2. Paul 2
    30 July 2014 at 7:06 am

    Nigel Latta on the ‘The New Haves And Have Nots’
    Good to see a discussion about inequality
    http://tvnz.co.nz/nigel-latta/s1-ep4-video-6025283

    • Craig Glen Eden 2.1
      30 July 2014 at 7:54 am

      I dont normally warm to much to Latta, but I thought that program last night was excellant if you still vote National after watching this program you have to be a loaf short of a picnic.

    • ianmac 2.2
      30 July 2014 at 9:32 am

      I am not usually a fan of Nigel Latta either but this time he made a great job of presenting the realities of the huge difference between the haves and the havenots. Since Key English are in denial about this, no doubt they will be very angry little boys. TVNZ please explain!
      http://tvnz.co.nz/nigel_latta/video

    • Mary 2.3
      30 July 2014 at 10:21 am

      Just keep him away from all that “darklands” nonsense.

    • Halfcrown 2.4
      30 July 2014 at 1:42 pm

      Some very interesting responses to his programme on face book. Like what Paula Benefit wrote in the Vic Uni magazine in 1996

    • blue leopard 2.5
      30 July 2014 at 4:28 pm

      I was impressed with Nigel Latta’s show – very good indeed. I also share others’ misgivings of Mr Latta – but this show is really something else. Exciting to witness something so informative on TV.

      Thanks Nigel Latta and the team that made it.

  3. phillip ure 3
    30 July 2014 at 7:17 am

    whyte doing his race-baiting rant on tvnz..

    ..the man is unintelligible….

    ..he makes shearer look like a lucid speaker/wordsmith…

    ..and every appearance whyte makes..

    ..just confirms how much of an odious-oink he actually is…

    • marty mars 3.1
      30 July 2014 at 7:59 am

      Yep odious describes him well.

      Just saw this and although so, so, many worthy topics of discussion it is imo important and shocking

      Director Ridley Scott’s new biblical blockbuster, Exodus: Gods and Kings, has come under fire for “whitewashing” African history, casting four white leads to tell a story of Israelites and Egyptians.

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/10324082/Racist-casting-claim-for-Ridley-Scotts-Exodus

      check out this tweet – it really is blatant and it is also rewriting history

      https://twitter.com/TheeSouthside/status/493509410288041985/photo/1

      • Tracey 3.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 10:11 am

        I am SICK of politicians claiming we should treat everyone the same “under the law” and that is why Maori shouldn’t get Maori seats of whatever. The TREATY of Waitangi is (arguably I know) a legal document. It is “under the law”

        A partnership agreement made when Maori were 99% of the population and the british 1%. NOW that our dominance is assured, it’s a piece of law, an agreement that group, and others don’t want any more.

        Have some honour

        • The Lone Haranguer 3.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 10:24 am

          Many of us white folk seem to choose to forget the incredible generosity of the Maori folk back in 1840. Im not to sure that it was 99/1 but there were certainly way more Maori being generous than there were English receiving it at the time.

          No doubt, there was an area of misunderstanding between the parties, as to what the other interpreted it to mean (each side interpreting it by their own culture) but that did not excuse the wrongs that were subsequently done to the Maori people.

          When you do a wrong, you need to put it right. Hence the Waitangi Tribunal.

          • Tracey 3.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 10:29 am

            contra proferentum my friend. its all allowed for under the law.

            Contra proferentem (Latin: “against [the] offeror”),[1] also known as “interpretation against the draftsman”, is a doctrine of contractual interpretation providing that, where a promise, agreement or term is ambiguous, the preferred meaning should be the one that works against the interests of the party who provided the wording.[2] The doctrine is often applied to situations involving standardized contracts or where the parties are of unequal bargaining power, but is applicable to other cases.[3] However, the doctrine is not directly applicable to situations where the language at issue is mandated by law, as is often the case with insurance contracts and bills of lading.[4] wiki

            http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/graph/36364/maori-and-european-population-numbers-1840-1881

        • Jilly Bee 3.1.1.2
          30 July 2014 at 3:21 pm

          +11111 Tracey – I was not happy when Dame Susan Devoy was appointed Race Relations Commissioner. She did say though that she had a bit of catching up/reading to do about what had gone before, but she certainly has ripped into the ACT leader’s comments and rightly so.http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11301500

          Goodness me, first Nigel Latta and now Dame Susan – whoever next.

          • Tracey 3.1.1.2.1
            30 July 2014 at 3:35 pm

            I imagineshe has learned stuff, like facts, since taking up the position. Previously she, like others only tuned into shallow rhetoric and thought it was “true”

        • Populuxe1 3.1.1.3
          30 July 2014 at 4:10 pm

          You’ll have to point out to me in the Treaty where is says anything about Maori seats. The Maori Representation Act 1867 was a bribe to Crown loyalists during the land wars and now seem only to exist to prop up National and maybe get Kim Dotcom influence in Parliament.

    • phillip ure 3.2
      30 July 2014 at 8:34 am

      and then we have that racist piece of shit on tvone breakfast..rawdon christie..

      ..with his blond sidekick..

      ..defending/(translating?) whyes’ racist diatribe..

      ..’he’s got a point there’..

      (the only point whyte has..is his fucken conehead..)

      ..and then reading out emails from aggrieved-whites who have suffered from these excessive privileges maori enjoy..(!)..(who fucken knew..?..eh.?..)

      ..and after reading out an email noting the 150 yrs of maori having their land stolen etc..

      ..’rawdy’ airily waves his hand..and sneers:..’that’s looking back’…

      ..just who is the bigger odious-oink..?..whyte or christie..?

    • ianmac 3.3
      30 July 2014 at 9:39 am

      whyte accused Guyon of being “all over the place.”
      Whyte was the one very much all over the place. Incoherent!

    • Gosman 3.4
      30 July 2014 at 10:19 am

      Seems to have done the trick about getting publicity though. Winston even joined in the fun.

      • phillip ure 3.4.1
        30 July 2014 at 10:49 am

        yeah..if yr happy about that ‘publicity’ being widespread laughing-at/piss-taking…

        ..confirmation of what an inarticulate-idiot whyte is..

        ..i mean..cd the man give instructions on how to get to a bus-stop..?

        ..without thoroughly confusing the listener..?

      • framu 3.4.2
        30 July 2014 at 12:42 pm

        not quite – even though i disagree with winston he was far more articulate and he fired some shots at act and nat at the same time

        all jamie whyte power did was further confirm hes not very smart – just like most racists

  4. riffer 4
    30 July 2014 at 7:30 am

    Jamie Whyte wasn’t much better on RNZ this morning. Again, Espiner was asking some good questions. A nice surprise.

    • David H 4.1
      30 July 2014 at 8:14 am

      Oh I do like listening to jamie Whyte. He is so articulate and you always know what he stands for. The people of Epsom must be jumping up and down with joy at having him represent them in parliament. /sarc.

      The people of Epsom must be saying oh fuuuucccckkkkkkk. Oh why, do we have these fools foisted on us by TricKey.

      • phillip ure 4.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 8:45 am

        whyte is not the act candidate..he is the party ‘president’..

        ..(what do you call ‘the president’ of such a small motley-crew as act..?..delusional..?..)

        ..the actual candidate is a super-dweeb called seymour..

        ..and yet they keep him well under wraps..(since those unfortunate junping out from behind hedges and scaring people..and video-taping it..episodes..)

        ..and they wheel whyte out for act public-appearances….because he handles the media better..?..(!)..

        (a talent-pool as deep as a petrie-dish..)

        ..seymour is walking proof of the dictum..’keep them wondering..!..don’t open yr mouth..and prove what an idiot you are!’..

        ..those lucky lucky epsom-voters…!..eh..?

        ..aren’t they spoilt..?

        • aerobubble 4.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 4:10 pm

          Whtye is on the ACT list, and he will get into parliament if any red buttons are found and pushed.

          Unfortunately even the richest people are seeing that National no longer is representing their interests. Wealth can be undermined, by boardrooms, by market failures but also by governments undermine the society that underwrites the whole economy.

          Why would a wealthy person want to support others to get wealthy, cheat on their taxes, get incentives than undermine their consumers buying power, etc, etc. Its just dumb to want tax cuts, its socialism for the rich, an easy rich for those who are supposed to make their wealth by hard work, or harder risk taking.

          National is corrupted by its neo-liberal ideological heart. I still can’t find an example of this high minimum wages causes job loses ideal, the closest I can find is a slave economy, where slave owners raise the amount of money they give the slaves. The slaved then buy themselves out of slavery and push up the unemployment numbers.

      • Gosman 4.1.2
        30 July 2014 at 9:35 am

        Jamie Whyte is not standing as a candidate in Epsom so the people there won’t have him represent them.

        • ianmac 4.1.2.1
          30 July 2014 at 9:41 am

          But if Act get enough party votes he will get in won’t he?

          • Gosman 4.1.2.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 10:23 am

            Yes but you can hardly claim he is representing Epsom in that situation.

            • framu 4.1.2.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 12:43 pm

              well apart from the fact that its only because of epsom he would be there

              • Gosman …
                30 July 2014 at 1:41 pm

                Then the same would apply to Laila Harre and Te Tai Tokerau if she gets in as a result of Hone winning that seat.

                • McFlock …
                  30 July 2014 at 2:44 pm

                  indeed.
                  Are any parties intentionally throwing the TTT electorate campaign in order to get an overhang on their side? No?

                  Epsom must be proud.

        • bad12 4.1.2.2
          30 July 2014 at 9:42 am

          i have to wonder then Gosman why the pathetic racially divisive idiot is then given airtime anywhere on the TeeVee or my wireless,

          The 7 Maori electorates, in my opinion, being a physical manifestation of Tinorangatiratanga, would suggest that until such time as Maori enrolled to vote in such electorates agree to not have them they will be a major feature of our political landscape…

          • Gosman 4.1.2.2.1
            30 July 2014 at 10:24 am

            Because it is newsworthy apparently. Winston and Tariana Turia also thought so as they both commented on the subject.

        • Pascals bookie 4.1.2.3
          30 July 2014 at 10:24 am

          Nah Gos, the people of Epsom understand personal responsibility, surely?

          • framu 4.1.2.3.1
            30 July 2014 at 12:45 pm

            just like they understand the rule of law, contract law and property rights 🙂

            for a party that is chock full of crims, doesnt want to honour legal contracts and wants to remove property rights from a group of people, they have some funny policies

    • bad12 4.2
      30 July 2014 at 8:22 am

      ACT’s Whyte is in some ways correct, Maori do have a legal privilege here in Aotearoa/New Zealand,

      Its called the Treaty of Waitangi and the only racial problem ever created from the existence of this legal privilege was in fact the ignoring of its provisions once the colonials got the upper hand militarily over the tribal Maori nations…

      • Ennui 4.2.1
        30 July 2014 at 1:51 pm

        Interesting that the Treaty is considered a “race” based document. It is between the chiefs and tribes of NZ and the Crown. The former are the owners of property and property rights allowing usage over the same. It just so happens that these “owners” and “sellers” happened to be Maori, the “buyers” non Maori. Under British law we are talking property rights that are inherited by through genealogical linkage. Is that “race” based?

        • aerobubble 4.2.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 4:24 pm

          Watch out. Auckland home owners, surely, could argue that they have special treasure in the liveability of Auckland and so stop the councils from raising the building heights.

    • Ennui 4.3
      30 July 2014 at 9:02 am

      There was a lilt in his voice, an inflection that screamed out loud and clear his class position: there was an assumed authority that underlined the former. In short a privileged prat. He sounded like Don Brash Mark 2.

      His logic on race was quite precise: which all goes to prove that a logical argument can be made for anything in isolation. That in a nutshell is where ACT are, ideologically logical in isolation of any facts or realities that challenge their dogma.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.1
        30 July 2014 at 1:08 pm

        I hope someone takes the time soon, live, to destroy Unclecousin’s facile conceit that his sophistry qualifies as philosophy, while he splutters and rages like the lying entitled wretch he is.

      • Draco T Bastard 4.3.2
        30 July 2014 at 2:59 pm

        That in a nutshell is where ACT are, ideologically logical in isolation of any facts or realities that challenge their dogma.

        Precisely:

        However, Mr Nicolson also believes there’s a lack of evidence proving agriculture’s negatively affecting water quality.

        That being despite all the evidence proving that it’s farming that is ruining our waterways.

      • alwyn 4.3.3
        30 July 2014 at 3:10 pm

        How fascinating. You appear to regard people with Don Brash’s “class position” as being privileged prats.
        Presumably you regard David Cunliffe as being a “privileged prat” also. After all Don’s father was a Presbyterian Minister and David’s an Anglican one. Both apparently favoured the Labour Party. Hard to see any difference really.
        One would have to say they come from the same class, wouldn’t one?

        • greywarbler 4.3.3.1
          30 July 2014 at 3:20 pm

          @ alwyn 3.10
          How fascinating. That you have not noticed that people from the same class can behave in a variety of ways. There is a general behaviour that people adopt within a class system, with extremes at the fringes. So David Cunliffe can be different from Don Brash on that basis.

          Then within each church referred to there are differing attitudes to achieving righteousness. If Don’s parents were Calvinists and David’s were from the liberal side of the Anglican church they would be quite different in their outlooks, though they would be aware of the attitudes likely coming from those positions. The Anglicans have a broad church – the Presbyterians inclined to be more demanding to be worthy of heaven.

          • aerobubble 4.3.3.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 4:28 pm

            The whole core of the rich prick class brought in by Thatcher, was of a socialist party for the rich, and privatizism for the everyone else. They’re the rich so they can cheat on their taxes, and force our taxes up while screaming how we aren’t paying enough.

            ACT is not a libertarian party. Its a socialist elite party. Nearest thing a western country comes to a communist politburo. Always dictating how others aren’t shaping up.

          • Rodel 4.3.3.1.2
            30 July 2014 at 5:06 pm

            gw
            Yes alwyn is really fascinating. My god I think DC and DB have the same size shoes too.

            “One would have to say they come from the same class, wouldn’t one?’ (No one wouldn’t).
            Isn’t torylogic great.

            • alwyn 4.3.3.1.2.1
              30 July 2014 at 5:18 pm

              Can you perhaps tell me how the class they come from is different?
              Just what class do you think each one was born into if it isn’t the same one?
              Claiming say that the Presbyterian church is a higher class than the Anglican which in turn is higher than The Salvation Army which is higher than the Baptist doesn’t really cut it.

              • Stuart Munro …
                31 July 2014 at 1:43 am

                Brash became a commercial – a blind servant of mammon – 2nd class. Cunliffe seems to subscribe to a notion of public service that resembles to some degree the synthetic ideals of Hutcheson. As an accountant Brash may have had some virtue, as a statesman he had none. You might also consider Brash’s degree (Canterbury?) vs Cunliffe’s (Harvard?).

                • alwyn …
                  31 July 2014 at 10:06 am

                  I suppose I could consider Don Brash’s degrees, since you have no idea.
                  Canterbury BA and MA in Economics. That’s economics, not accounting.
                  ANU PhD. That is a more highly rated University than any of the NZ ones.
                  Cunliffe has one economics qualification I suppose. A diploma from Massey.
                  Doesn’t really seem much does it?

                  • Murray Olsen …
                    1 August 2014 at 12:14 am

                    Did Brash learn his racism at ANU? The university at which someone gets their qualifications has very little to do with how well they do in their chosen career. I’ve seen many examples of this.

          • alwyn 4.3.3.1.3
            30 July 2014 at 5:11 pm

            But I have, greywarbler, I have. It was ennui who appears to regard peoples behaviour as being due to the class into which they were born. If you are born in one class he seems to think your behaviour is pre-ordained.

            I think that Don and Dave were born into a very similar class background. It didn’t really matter though. Whatever class Don came from I think he would always have been successful and would have contributed greatly to New Zealand, particularly as he did from his time as Reserve Bank Governor. David Cunliffe on the other hand was always going to be a prat.

            I will take your word for the religious attitudes of the various churches. I regard all those who profess to believe in a god as being idiots. You are allowed to take the easy way out and say, as Helen Clark did, that you are an agnostic, or come out and say you are an atheist. Anything else is for people who believe in fairies.

          • Murray Olsen 4.3.3.1.4
            31 July 2014 at 1:43 am

            Greywarbler – in defence of some Presbyterian friends I have, it is also a fairly broad church. Standard Calvinism is pretty rigid stuff, but my friends (one a reverend) have been in favour of “worldly” things like gay marriage and marijuana legalisation for years. My impression was that it was broader than the Anglicans, with some of the more traditional Anglicans being able to swap easily to Catholicism.

            • greywarbler 4.3.3.1.4.1
              31 July 2014 at 2:51 pm

              @ Murray Olsen 1.43
              Trying to classify religions as I did was a mistake. I remember now one interesting book by I think, a chap Greenwood, which referred to the high Anglican church and its rites being so near Catholicism, setting its style apart from the practice of the major part of the church. Actually there are some quite good crime stories that weave religious practices and styles in and it is a fascinating theme within the genre.

              And alwyn I think you are looking down on the goings on of pollies, while I am the reverse, looking up. And I see Don Brash as a prat who probably got too much praise at school for being precise and clever while never learnign much about actual human behaviour, and David Cunliffe as being successful, highly trained, experienced and yet human-oriented, less statistical and theory biased and more ground-based than Brash.

              I don’t like fervent idealists and theory based, utopian followers whether its in economic theory squeezing life to comply, or socially based humanitarian ones who announce the world belongs to the people in fervent tones, or knock-it-all-down and rebuild fresh and new stirrers, or religious ones whose hymn is I Did it my Way, and there is no other, and anyway it is the next life that counts. A pox on all their houses.

  5. Armchair Critic 5
    30 July 2014 at 7:33 am

    John Key says that water quality is not that bad, all it means is that we can’t swim in some rivers on some days.
    Show us the money John. It’s your policy, so you should understand the costs by now. Tell us which rivers and which days. Or is it more like which catchments and which months or seasons?

    • Paul 5.1
      30 July 2014 at 7:56 am

      Fish and Game sound really unimpressed by the government on this issue.

      • David H 5.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 8:54 am

        As am I.

      • vto 5.1.2
        30 July 2014 at 9:10 am

        Paul Fish & Game are so unimpressed that they have (collectively as a Council that is) called for Nick Smith’s resignation – the resignation of their very own Minister.

        And these are sensible calm rational people (the f&g folk that is, not smith of course)

    • Craig Glen Eden 5.2
      30 July 2014 at 7:57 am

      National, firstly they bought us carless days now its rivers we cant swim in. Time for real change.

    • vto 5.3
      30 July 2014 at 8:46 am

      Fantastic cartoon by Murdoch in the Press this morning showing Nick Smith at a restaurant refusing a glass of water “strained lovingly through cows” while he eats fish.

      Someone described this as not the “rock star economy” but the “pollution economy”, which is most apt. John Key’s pollution economy.

    • Tracey 5.4
      30 July 2014 at 1:06 pm

      I think the swimming in Hawaii is great. Key probably wonders why people dont just there on holidays to swim.

    • Clemgeopin 5.5
      30 July 2014 at 9:53 pm

      I want to see on what days Key and his family are prepared to swim in which rivers?

  6. bad12 6
    30 July 2014 at 7:57 am

    From my wireless, RadioNZ National, 550+ pack out the hall at the Rotorua InternetMana roadshow, the sniff of 5% of the vote for InternetMana i had last week just got as pungent as that from one of the many mud-pools up there in Waiariki,

    Those numbers say to me Annette Sykes will be the new Member of Parliament for that electorate, the tangi for the Maori Party begins….

  7. marty mars 7
    30 July 2014 at 8:11 am

    Clarification from yesterdays open mike

    I posted this

    “Actor Cliff Curtis has become the latest celebrity to publicly declare support for the Mana Movement.” http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10320814/Cliff-Curtis-supports-Mana

    today this

    “But Curtis today clarified his position, saying that “while I respect my cousin Annette Sykes’ commitment in engaging in the political process, I do not endorse or support any political party”.” http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/10324758/Cliff-Curtis-denies-Mana-support

    Hope that’s all sorted now 🙂

    • The Al1en 7.1
      30 July 2014 at 8:44 am

      Not to split hairs but the second piece was published yesterday and last updated at 18:58 and not today. It was also on TV3’s site at 5:44p.m.

    • Tiger Mountain 7.2
      30 July 2014 at 9:24 am

      “someone” should not have put Curtis in the media mix till he had at least fronted the event. Always easier to let a cat out of the bag than add one.

      I don’t know the inside story here yet, but do know that there are a number of whanau still split along Mana/Māori Party lines that take it seriously which is why Hone was still reaching out for some kind of rapprochement last year.

      Curtis is just doing a nice turn of supporting his bollocks with a fence rail.

  8. vto 8
    30 July 2014 at 8:34 am

    And now for the next act… surprise surprise folks … (drum roll) … bring you hands together for Simon Bridges…… (applause) … our latest LIAR from John Key’s government.

    Yesterday Bridges admitted spending $240,000 on oil execs in NZ for the rugby world cup

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10326838/Oil-exec-junket-needed-Govt

    The result?… is this … “Only one of those companies had so far been granted a petroleum exploration permit but had committed to spending almost $20 million here,”

    BUT folks here is the clanger, the lie, the deceit and the dishonesty that you have all been waiting for …… I give you again …. Siiiimmon Bridgeessssss…. (applause) …

    “But Energy Minister Simon Bridges defended the spending: “the sums expended were very modest …. and has resulted in billions of dollars of international investment in New Zealand.”

    …. ta daa

    $20million the reality

    $billions the liar claims.

    Simon Bridges please take your place alongside all the other liars in your government….
    (the audience is nearly all gone at this point …)

    • bad12 8.1
      30 July 2014 at 9:03 am

      Yep, six oil companies, that’s a 40 grand piss up, accommodation, and, you can just about bet with certainty free tickets to the rugby for each of those oil companies, only one of which has taken up the right to explore here, all paid for by us the taxpayers,

      i wonder if that was one executive per company that such largesse was bestowed upon by Slippery’s National Government, if so, the expense would suggest that they got flown around the country on one very long drunken tour of our rugby stadia,

      Meanwhile, those of us living life within the small means brushed our way as crumbs off of the table got to watch ‘live’ from the big screens at the pub…

      • miravox 8.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 5:07 pm

        Chevron, Statoil, Apache and? ??

        I’m pretty sure these three companies will make investment decisions on factors other than sychophantic governments. A nice presentation to the Boards would have done the trick if NZ had solid investment potential. I’ keen toknow whhether thre other three companies are established players or cowboy companies. Also if any of them operate here already, or have up sticks and left.

    • Hayden 8.2
      30 July 2014 at 9:19 am

      This is a nice touch at the end:

      The oil and gas sector currently earns the Government about $800m in royalties and taxes each year which are used to fund roads, schools and hospitals.

      Yes, let’s point out what taxes are for, while somehow implying that if not for oil exploration we’d not have roads, schools and hospitals.

      • vto 8.2.1
        30 July 2014 at 9:22 am

        Yes clever clogs, well aware of the place of the mining and oil sector in NZ …. but you missed the deception. The point of the comment was not the place of oil and mining, it was the dishonesty of Simon Bridges…. can you see it here?

        “the sums expended were very modest …. and has resulted in billions of dollars of international investment “

        • Hayden 8.2.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 9:45 am

          Yes, I can, I was being sarcastic about the need to include that tidbit at the end.

          • vto 8.2.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 9:49 am

            oh woops so you were – burning the candles at all ends makes for weary brain. Time for time out.

      • Tracey 8.2.2
        30 July 2014 at 1:08 pm

        And if we didnt spend 250k wining and dining they would walk away from their drills…

    • ianmac 8.3
      30 July 2014 at 9:52 am

      And remember this Government buying votes for the Security Council bid with junkets to NZ/Queenstown.

  9. phillip ure 9
    30 July 2014 at 9:09 am

    question for the day:

    ..can john banks drive..talk on cellphone..and pick ‘n eat earwax…at the same time..?

    • bad12 9.1
      30 July 2014 at 9:15 am

      i was just about to indulge in my favorite breakfast when i read that, 2 toasts, i each with a swipe of marmite and peanut butter, both then lashed with guacamole,

      Think i might wait for your image of Banks indulging in His dogs dinner to fade…

      • Chooky 9.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 10:06 am

        sounds like a yummy breakfast…i also have avocado on my toast when i can ….what about the black coffee?

        just read pu’s comment …disguisting….glad i have finished my vege/peanut butter toast

        • bad12 9.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 10:40 am

          That’s my standard munch at breakfast Chooky, laugh, six months ago i had never even made guacamole now its become a staple replacing butter or margarine which are both off the menu here,(and strangely enough not missed at all),

          i have just moved to supplying myself with milk for $1.20 a liter via buying in the skim milk powder and purchasing a couple of liter bottles with screw top lids which resemble the milk bottles of my hugely misspent youth,(takes all of five minutes to mix, and is best accomplished by mixing half the liter and then leaving overnight for the froth from the shaking to dissipate),

          Soy milk which tastes yummy has been put through my testing regime and found wanting in a number of areas including cost,(anyone thinking of shifting to obtaining their milk via powder should buy the kilo pack as there is no savings involved from buying the smaller packages)…

          • Chooky 9.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 11:27 am

            Well you could put your sign out as a local breakfast cafe as far as i am concerned! …breakfast is the meal of the day i enjoy most i think ( probably because i havent eaten for a while….food tastes so much better on an empty stomach)

            • bad12 9.1.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 11:45 am

              Lolz, i have a breakfast menu, including a couple of slices of one of the poor little piggies rear end that is the ultimate in Delish, works as dinner as well…

              • Chooky …
                30 July 2014 at 1:15 pm

                …you won’t be arguing with Phillip over breakfast then!

                ..once when I was in an isolated fish and chip shop with my 8 year old son a Mongrel Mob looking guy walked in and my 8 year old red head said “Mum, what do people taste like?”….the Mongrel Mob guy looked interested ….I said “I dont know but your sister would!”…there was the teenage daughter cool as a cucumber …she would have scared any Mongrel Mob!…the guy smiled ever so slightly…I said “I have heard people taste a bit like bacon that is why they were called ‘long pig’ ”

                Maybe some NACTS will come knocking at your door and you could have them in for breakfast

  10. Ennui 10
    30 July 2014 at 9:51 am

    Just watched BamBam on the Whitehouse Lawn “givin them damned godless Ruskies” a tongue lashing. Absolute pity about the whole thing was that nothing he said could be backed up by solid evidence, it was all be implication. What the limp rag Uncle Tom was announcing was more sanctions against Russia on behalf of US corporate energy and agricultural corporates. The Russians of course are better placed because they don’t have to rely upon “faith” in the Greenback..they have the real oil and gas that Europe so desperately needs. Merkel wont risk German wealth just to help out a US oil company that cant supply her industry.

    Somehow I think the whole issue is going to blow up in our faces with much higher oil prices: the timing is such a pit because along with the drop in dairy receipts, pressure on petrol prices might just have given Key and his cronies a massive electoral headache.

  11. Penny Bright 11
    30 July 2014 at 9:54 am

    Laila Harre is standing in Helensville for the Internet/Mana Party.

    Hopefully, this will encourage Prime Minister John Key to participate in Helensville electorate candidate debates.

    I look forward to voters who support candidates who are members of political parties, giving them their PARTY vote, and giving me their ELECTORATE vote as the (fiercely) Independent MP for Helensville.

    All good!

    Penny Bright

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    • Tracey 11.1
      30 July 2014 at 10:08 am

      It will confirm Key as a no show in Hellensville. WHY would he debate he has won that seat.

      “nternet Mana leader Laila Harre will take on Prime Minister John Key in the Helensville electorate.

      Harre says she wants to debate Key at candidate meetings and says he has “some explaining to do.”

      Key had a 21,000 majority at the last election and has held the seat since 2002.

      “I want to wake New Zealanders up from the anaesthetic trance that John Key has induced with his soothing words,” Harre said.

      A spokesman for Key said, “the Prime Minister has said Ms Harre is free to stand wherever she likes.” “

    • infused 11.2
      30 July 2014 at 10:25 am

      Why would he waste his time.

  12. Chooky 12
    30 July 2014 at 10:03 am

    +100 Penny …Go Girl!

  13. StiffLittleFinger 13
    30 July 2014 at 10:09 am

    Penny! Don’t stand in Helensville . You and Laila will split the left vote and allow John Key to come through the middle. Yeah Nah.

  14. Puckish Rogue 14
    30 July 2014 at 10:11 am

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10324092/Peters-No-deal-with-Maori-Mana

    • Now thats how you go into an mmp election, keep your cards to your chest
  15. bad12 15
    30 July 2014 at 10:20 am

    So, Slippery the Prime Minister has spun the roulette wheel and bet the ‘House’ on Winston Peters, that’s some gamble from the money trader who in His former life always got to play the game with the deck having been previously stacked by the bigger money boys on the floors of the ‘trading house’ above,

    There’s a huge prospect in play here where NZFirst and Colon’s Conservatives become entwined in a lose/lose battle for party vote %’s each chiseling not only votes from each other but crucially nibbling at the soft rump of the National Governments own party vote,

    A minus for NZFirst in September will be the loss of support from those who in election 2011 voted for that party solely on the basis that Slippery the PM ruled Peters out of inclusion in a National coalition, and, in the chess game of MMP politics voted as a ‘check’, which incidently nearly became ‘check-mate’, to ensure National as all the media polls were suggesting at the time, could not ‘Govern alone’,

    Unfortunately this ‘tactical vote’ which helped NZFirst re-enter the Parliament in 2011 cannot be measured, but, my opinion says, a 3% Conservative vote along with the loss of that 2011 ‘tactical vote’ will see NZFirst fall again, as the party did in 2008, agonizing short of the 5%,

    If Anette Sykes wins Waiariki, and, last nights standing room only InternetMana meeting in that electorate has me giving Her a 70/30 advantage over the dying Maori Party’s Flavell there, then Nationals chances of forming a third term Government look even more remote,

    Kick ACT from Epsom and/or Dunne from Ohariu and it becomes virtually impossible for the Tory’s to gain that third term,

    The left? despite the media polls, looking good, by that i mean looking GOOD, Labour 33%, Greens 12%, InternetMana 5%, not too big an ask at all i would suggest….

    • Puckish Rogue 15.1
      30 July 2014 at 10:49 am

      I’m conflicted, on the one hand National in power = good but Winston with some form of power = bad

      • bad12 15.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 11:36 am

        i always seen you as confused Puckish, add to that conflicted and we await the addition of a few more words beginning with the consonant C, above four letters please, and we may have you described to a T as opposed to simply describing you in simpler form via C with few other letters added….

        (Condensed springs to mind as an addition to confused/conflicted)…

        [lprent: Approaching pointless again. ]

        • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 11:54 am

          Well thats just plain rude 🙂

          • bad12 15.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 12:00 pm

            i have some manual labour to attend to, be assured Puckish, later there is more such ‘rudeness’ to be supplied and applied…

            • Puckish Rogue 15.1.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 12:20 pm

              I used to do manual labour but I prefer to work inside now, much better on the body

  16. phillip ure 16
    30 July 2014 at 10:21 am

    the nz herald features in the huffington post..

    ..but not to be praised/for good reasons…

    “..Newspaper Runs Image Of ‘Jackass’ Star Instead Of Killed Israeli Soldier..”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/newspaper-gaza-ryan-dunn-jackass-new-zealand_n_5629828.html?ref=topbar

  17. joe90 17
    30 July 2014 at 10:40 am

    Starve them and mow the lawn.

    In 2006 Weissglass was just as frank about Israel’s policy towards Gaza’s 1.8 million inhabitants: ‘The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger.’ He was not speaking metaphorically: it later emerged that the Israeli defence ministry had conducted detailed research on how to translate his vision into reality, and arrived at a figure of 2279 calories per person per day – some 8 per cent less than a previous calculation because the research team had originally neglected to account for ‘culture and experience’ in determining nutritional ‘red lines’

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-rabbani/israel-mows-the-lawn

    The regularity of Israel’s perceived need to use force is illustrated by the notorious expression, “mowing the lawn,” that one of its military officers used to describe strategy toward Gaza. It is reminiscent of the advice that Thrasybulus gave Periander of Corinth, recounted in Herodotus. Walking through a field, Thrasybulus broke off the tallest ears of grain by way of showing Periander’s envoy the best way to rule violently. The envoy couldn’t figure out his meaning, but Periander, the prototype of the ancient tyrant, understood immediately on hearing the envoy’s report. The analogy showed that violence could not be a one-time affair. New stalks would grow up. It would remain necessary to keep lopping off the top ones—i.e. mowing the lawn.

    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-thrasybulus-syndrome-israel%E2%80%99s-war-gaza-10968

  18. Draco T Bastard 18
    30 July 2014 at 11:10 am

    American Intelligence Officers Who Battled the Soviet Union for Decades Slam the Flimsy “Intelligence” Against Russia

    Twelve days after the shoot-down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17, your administration still has issued no coordinated intelligence assessment summarizing what evidence exists to determine who was responsible – much less to convincingly support repeated claims that the plane was downed by a Russian-supplied missile in the hands of Ukrainian separatists.

    Your administration has not provided any satellite imagery showing that the separatists had such weaponry, and there are several other “dogs that have not barked.” Washington’s credibility, and your own, will continue to erode, should you be unwilling – or unable – to present more tangible evidence behind administration claims. In what follows, we put this in the perspective of former intelligence professionals with a cumulative total of 260 years in various parts of U.S. intelligence:

    What the professional’s think of the ‘evidence’ against Russia can only be termed scathing. They’re particularly nasty in their condemnation of Senator Kerry.

  19. Veteran's Kid 19
    30 July 2014 at 11:18 am

    I just read on another blog a post by someone complaining about Key’s WWI speech yesterday, and was pleased to see someone felt the same as I did. Other pollies spoke with emotion and as this person said, from the heart. But John Key read his speech without any emotion or emphasis. He looked bored and he sounded it and as if it was all just too tiring and bothersome. I felt it was insulting that he didn’t take the time to familiarize himself with the material someone else had written for him. I can only think the subject was just not important enough to him personally. Our veterans weren’t worth the bother of him learning his speech and speaking with the level of commitment the commemoration deserved. Why are so many blinded by this fake?

    • Blue 19.1
      30 July 2014 at 9:12 pm

      Don’t take it personally. He’s always like that. There is nothing warm or genuine about him, he’s just going through the motions. Enter room, shake hands with Important Person One, smile, shake hands with Important Person two, smile. Give canned speech written by someone else. Wait until applause dies down. Move away for media standup. Exit. Move on to next event.

      As to why so many are blinded, there is a lot that power, money and superficial charm can convince people to overlook.

    • Weepus beard 21.1
      30 July 2014 at 11:44 am

      Looks like Phil Quin, like Jones, Pagani and Steve Kilgallon’s mysterious “insider”, is a paid-up member of the ABC club.

      • mickysavage 21.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 11:54 am

        Yep it really grates when the right of the party side with the Herald to tell us there is no bias to see and to move along when we spend so much time detailing the concerns. Their choice is a dead giveaway. If the Herald wanted a debate it would select a leftie not an apologist for the right.

        I also wish Quin would get his stuff right. The comment about how Labour is only going for the missing million has been replied to on numerous occasions but he still trots out the wrong line …

        • Puckish Rogue 21.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 12:28 pm

          Just remember that after the next election and you’re scrambling around for excuses as to why Labour did so badly you were told time and time again whats wrong with Labour

        • Olwyn 21.1.1.2
          30 July 2014 at 12:40 pm

          I’ll tell you what I have had a gut full of – people who are so lacking in respect that they think they can turn the Labour Party into a vehicle for whatever suits them. For God’s sake, this guy cites the opinion of Shane Jones, who has decamped to work for National. Having taken a glance at other headlines of Quin’s, I assume he is one of the eighties’ influx of aspiring “young men of the city” who sought a vehicle for themselves under Douglas’s wing. And Josie and her ilk appear to think the party exists to allow nice, talented people like themselves to retain a foothold among the political/media elite. To these people I say, read the party’s bloody principles, and try to refrain from dissembling to yourself as you do so! You would not become a priest because the Catholic church could do with more atheists. You would not join the Greens to contribute a much-needed voice in favour of fracking. Why do you think it is OK to do this kind of thing to Labour?

          • Puckish Rogue 21.1.1.2.1
            30 July 2014 at 1:01 pm

            Labours a broad church so i’m guessing their views are valid otherwise why would you have the likes of Mallard, Cosgrove, Goff , King etc etc still hanging around

        • Tracey 21.1.1.3
          30 July 2014 at 3:54 pm

          Mickey

          What does it take to get chucked out of Labour? Surely scuttling the ship is not a good thing?

      • blue leopard 21.1.2
        30 July 2014 at 12:49 pm

        We had a conversation about Phil Quin on another Open Mike.

        It resulted in Karen sharing this article.

        About six weeks before Helen Clark finally cemented her grip on NZ Labour – one which she maintains to this day, even in absentia – I had finally convinced Phil Goff to topple her.

        Phil Quin was someone who tried to get rid of Helen Clark prior to her gaining the government for 9 years.

        Perhaps that is why he is an ex Labour adviser?

        Not someone’s advice who I would listen to.

        It is about time those further right (centrists) created a new party. As it stands it appears that the ‘right-wing’ faction of Labour are pissing on our chances of a decent left-wing government gaining power. Those who are ‘centrists’ in the party need to realise that Labour have very much been presenting themselves to appeal to the centre whilst still attempting to appeal to those further left too. It is ultraistic to push Labour’s current stance any other way. I wish those right-wing /’centrist’ types connected to Labour would stop their squawking and get real.

        [Additionally in his article Quin cited, amongst other things, the Dong Liu saga as ‘mismanaged’ by Labour – omitting to mention the story was fictitious and yet propagated by our media. There has been no apology for that nonsense. The problem there was Labour took the story seriously – how were they to know that the media would grab something so unsubstantiated and report it as fact? I think most people who followed that story were truly shocked by how lacking in facts that story was.]

        • blue leopard 21.1.2.1
          30 July 2014 at 1:03 pm

          Here is a working link to that other Open Mike:

          http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06072014/#comment-845221

        • mickysavage 21.1.2.2
          30 July 2014 at 1:18 pm

          Interesting BL. So according to Quin Helen’s reign and the fifth Labour Government was an abject disaster for the party and we should be led by Shane Jones, no doubt with Josie Pagani as deputy.

          Words fail me …

          • Tracey 21.1.2.2.1
            30 July 2014 at 1:23 pm

            I am thinking, broadly, the difference between nats and labs is

            Nats are driven by self interest and that drive will lead them to a collective lie cos they think it will benefit them in the long run

            Labs are driven by self interest and if they think they wont get what they want, they will burn the house down

            • blue leopard 21.1.2.2.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 1:44 pm

              It is certainly looking like that although I think it is important to acknowledge the many Labourites who are loyal and are working diligently. Those loyal people need to speak firmly to the ones that are wrecking things for Labour and tell them in no uncertain terms how unacceptable their behaviour is.

              • Tracey …
                30 July 2014 at 3:51 pm

                Agreed.

                Anything theydois undermined by the type i describe.

                Former labour seems to mean when roger dpuglas was in power, so having them as commentator for the left is a joke cos they probably vote ACT now

          • blue leopard 21.1.2.2.2
            30 July 2014 at 1:26 pm

            😆 …. yes it beggars belief…

            … and yet Quin gets his platform as a left-supportive commentator….?

        • Draco T Bastard 21.1.2.3
          30 July 2014 at 3:22 pm

          It is about time those further right (centrists) created a new party.

          I’m sure that a few of them would be quite comfortable in ACT.

          • Tracey 21.1.2.3.1
            30 July 2014 at 3:48 pm

            Or united future… The right wing party pretending to care but bobbing its head in agreement to policies that are unfair

    • fender 21.2
      30 July 2014 at 12:03 pm

      Yes it’s true that this is someone’s OPINION, well spotted 🙄

      Even this crap: “Supporters and activists find it much easier to blame straw-men, presumably along with a mandatory 50 per cent of straw-women……”

      This could be the most relevant part: “Phil Quin is a FORMER Labour Party adviser and a strategic communications consultant”

  22. Richard@Down South 22
    30 July 2014 at 11:26 am

    I think Labour is failing, sadly, on several issues…

    one of which is tax policy…

    as an example:

    http://i.imgur.com/Qp9MVmr.jpg

    • Draco T Bastard 22.1
      30 July 2014 at 11:46 am

      Your image proves you an idiot.

    • bad12 22.2
      30 July 2014 at 11:55 am

      i think Richard is flailing, sadly, in the wrong place at the wrong time, it really is too late in the piece for us to be attempting to exploit that which we see as not quite right in the policy arena,

      The 3 years just passed were the times to be talking thus, with the campaign proper having overtaken such concerns the vote itself now becomes the imperative,

      i like these numbers, for me they have a certain resonance, an inevitability if you will, Labour 33%, Greens 12%, InternetMana 5%, my little gaze into the crystal ball of the 2014 election…

  23. greywarbler 23
    30 July 2014 at 11:45 am

    A dreadful comment on Radionz this morning about the ballooning tragedy and the defects of the CAA. They knew lots about the guy, binge drinker, marijuana smoker, incidents. But they all know each other, and cosset each other apparently. The CAA put hot air balloons low on the dangerous list! They are not only not doing their job properly, they are under their own control and espouse apparently, that stupid, irresponsible free market crap about businesses should control and regulate themselves.
    And they are one of these pseudo-government entities that are free to operate as they wish without control, oversight or discipline from government.

    It is time that we demanded a complete overhaul and sacking of these pompous, diseased shits. The disease of arrogant position, so that they feel no shame when accidents occur, just throwing excuses, statistics and technical jargon in everyone’s eyes when actually the source of the fault is quite obvious to the naive, unpropagandised enquirer. And a Royal Commission to establish the fault properly. These so and so’s in CAA should be jailed and fined as well. The interview with David Still sets out the situation well.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon
    Balloon death families call for government to act ( 12′ 43″ )
    09:08 David Still’s daughter Alexis was one of 10 passengers who died in a hot air balloon crash in Carterton in 2012, along with pilot Lance Hopping. He says the Civil Aviation Authority failed to act despite repeated complaints about Hopping prior to the accident, and he’s calling for the government to force change upon the aviation safety regulator.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport
    CAA failed to take action over balloon pilot complaints ( 3′ 11″ )
    08:23 An inquest has been told several complaints had been made to the Civil Aviation Authority about the pilot of a hot-air balloon which crashed in Wairarapa in 2012 killing all 11 people on board.

    Preventable accidents in NZ –
    Crash survivors sue Ansett for $3 million – Tony Stickley – NZ …
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/tony-stickley/news/article.cfm?a_id=143...
    Dec 23, 1999 – … Dash-8 flight which smashed into a hill while trying to land at Palmerston North in June 1995. Two passengers and one crew member died in the tragedy. … The airline had also made a deliberate decision not to replace faulty landing gear, … on flying the plane, said Mr Miles, the captain was helping the co-pilot lower the …

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=192796
    As evidence would show, this was not as alarming as it may sound. Landing gear problems on the Dash-8s had become so frequent that pilots had stopped reporting them to Ansett.
    But what Captain Sotheran and First Officer Brown had failed to notice was that their aircraft was perilously close to the foothills of the Tararua Ranges, to the east of Palmerston North.

    Interesting from CAA 1990s

    NZ Fixed Wing Aviation Accidents 1995-2004

    Seven Crop and Food deaths.:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3506293

    • Tracey 23.1
      30 July 2014 at 1:25 pm

      Interestingly, i gather the market response is that now that business will fail, and others will see their failure, due to deaths, and do stuff to avoid people dying… But look how many have to die

  24. The Al1en 24
    30 July 2014 at 11:56 am

    Job interview at 2pm.
    Only a fixed term contract through January 31st 2015, but a bit of breathing space from Mr Wolf when he comes a knocking.
    Don’t know what to say about my last employment when asked, but I’ll burn that bridge when I’ve crossed it.

  25. Herodotus 25
    30 July 2014 at 12:31 pm

    Labour had some concerns about the proposals, but agreed to back the bill into law because it felt urgent measures were needed to relieve house prices.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/election-2014/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503581&objectid=11301094
    And many wonder what the difference between Nat and Lab are ? Well for developers IMO they allow for profits to increase as they transfer costs to the rate payer, and I defie anyone to prove anything different.
    If anyone has any ideas that transferring council contributions to rate payers will reduce the price of property, they are misguided. The price we pay for a house is “market driven” not as cost plus basis.

    • Tracey 25.1
      30 July 2014 at 1:28 pm

      If you look to the last major building industry crisis, leaky homes, developers took profits, shut down the company, avoided any liability and have had NO legislation aimed at them… Builders, yes. Designers? Yes. Developers no, and this govt wants to give them more money, less regulation and still no tightening of liability.

      • Herodotus 25.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 1:46 pm

        And they get full support from Labour. Next year when rates have increased it is not all the fault of our local govt, they have been given a hospital pass from Wellington.
        Many of the services that are to now be funded by “other ” sources like libraries, sports grounds, community facilities, there are vast amounts that have been already collected by council & to be spent in the future, but under the LTCCP are deferred., part of the reason is the squeeze on councils increasing debt. Also talking of the LTCCP , councils spent huge resources, $ and time in preparing these and in one wee stroke all the work and planning of funding and timing has been undone. What a waste

  26. Ad 26
    30 July 2014 at 12:53 pm

    Now that Stephen Joyce has confirmed that he will be nationalising Novopay from Talent2, can some one tell me whether Michelle Boag is a shareholder in Talent2?

  27. Tiger Mountain 27
    30 July 2014 at 12:55 pm

    Beyond Reasonable Doubt?–police culture is still reactionary no doubt about that.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11301287

    This expensive re–look at the 4 decades old Crewe murders is only significant for more arse covering and fingers in ears from the blue bellies. They do manage to find space to retry the case and smear pardoned and compensated Arthur Thomas again and let one early suspect off the hook.

    • phillip ure 28.1
      30 July 2014 at 1:29 pm

      no..this was heralded before..

      ..and gee..!..shock horror..!..labour party promises to raise minimum wage..

      ..the story wd be if they weren’t promising to do that..

      ..um..!..do you ever say anything that could be of the slightest interest to anyone..?

      ..do you ever take the sneer off yr face..

      ..are you really as thick/simplistic as you appear in yr postings here..?..

      ..or is it a routine/act that you do..?

      • Puckish Rogue 28.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 1:44 pm

        I apoligise if I sound rude but I’m having trouble following you

        • phillip ure 28.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 1:46 pm

          first step..join the mana party..

          ..second step:..stop eating animals..and their bye-products..

          ..third step..stop drinking booze..smoke pot instead..

          ..(then get back to me..and i’ll give you some more ‘following’-tips..)

          ..oh..!..and go to the pound..and get a dog or two…eh..?

          • Puckish Rogue 28.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 2:27 pm

            first step..join the mana party..

            • Yeah or nah…nah

            ..second step:..stop eating animals..and their bye-products..

            • The problem is it doesn’t matter if you vote left or vote right bacon is delicious

            ..third step..stop drinking booze..smoke pot instead..

            • I hardly drink booze (I’m more aq coke zero type) and I don’t think smoking pot is all that good for you either

            ..oh..!..and go to the pound..and get a dog or two…eh..?

            • I already have enough dogs, I don’t need anymore
            • The Al1en 28.1.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 3:56 pm

              “The problem is it doesn’t matter if you vote left or vote right bacon is delicious”

              Aint that the truth of it.

              “I don’t think smoking pot is all that good for you either”

              If you’re a balloon pilot it really isn’t.

              • bad12 …
                30 July 2014 at 4:25 pm

                RIP to those who perished in the Wairarapa ballooning tragedy, it could be said that to be the passenger of a balloon pilot so affected is even worse,

                Obviously, at some point in the future when the Parliament comes to look at the decriminalization/legalization of that particular substance such concerns as how to address the use of such vis a vis employment/public safety issues will have to be an inherent part of such Legislation,

                The recent ‘running aground’ of a Tranzrail passenger train at the Melling station here in Wellington has been attributed to either a too high speed limit rounding the bend into that particular end of the line station and/or the Marijuana use of the driver…

                • The Al1en …
                  30 July 2014 at 5:55 pm

                  “in the future when the Parliament comes to look at the decriminalization/legalization of that particular substance such concerns as how to address the use of such vis a vis employment/public safety issues”

                  Not to make light of that shocking preventable tragedy, but a literacy test might be a start.

                  • bad12 …
                    30 July 2014 at 6:22 pm

                    You will have to be far more lucid than this comment Alien if such ”literacy test’ were directed my way,

                    Of course as a general comment thought of as directed ‘elsewhere’ it becomes far clearer to understand,

                    Phillip below seems to have, perhaps mastered the art of the oblique when referencing a particular commenter,

                    Of course as ‘it’ is never ever engaging with me again here at the Standard that comment surely cannot be aimed my way,

                    i would have really liked to spark a discussion about puckering up to relieve some commenters of their condyloma but don’t dare…

                    • The Al1en …
                      30 July 2014 at 6:31 pm

                      “You will have to be far more lucid than this comment Alien if such ”literacy test’ were directed my way,”

                      Nah, I mostly get what you’re going on about.

                      “Of course as a general comment thought of as directed ‘elsewhere’ it becomes far clearer to understand,”

                      Bullseye. …Ah!!!..the rambling prose…

                      “condyloma”

                      I had to google.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condyloma

                    • bad12 …
                      30 July 2014 at 6:45 pm

                      i laughs,(but only quietly up my sleeve), gee Alien for once i am a little disappointed in the Wiki,

                      my Collins English ‘book of words’ is far more descriptive and explanatory when the words puckering up are considered previous to a reference to condyloma,

                      i am of course far to polite to go into the minute detail here, and besides, its dinner time…

            • phillip ure 28.1.1.1.1.2
              30 July 2014 at 5:41 pm

              @ pouting ‘bad-boy’..

              well at least you have got yr ‘following’ sorted out..eh..?

              ..that was a particularly silly conceit on yr part to claim that..eh..?

  30. blue leopard 30
    30 July 2014 at 1:28 pm

    David Cunliffe’s facebook page just sent a message:

    “Multinationals must pay their fair share of tax, just like ordinary working people. Labour will ’embed’ IRD auditors in corporations that have a history of tax avoidance #forabetterNZ”

    https://www.facebook.com/david.cunliffe.labour

    • phillip ure 30.1
      30 July 2014 at 1:41 pm

      excellent idea…

      • blue leopard 30.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 1:52 pm

        Yes, I thought so too 🙂

      • Gosman 30.1.2
        30 July 2014 at 2:02 pm

        Yes, just like a political commissionar in the old soviet union. All decisions will be then be able to be vetoed if they don’t meet certain “National interest” criteria.

        • blue leopard 30.1.2.1
          30 July 2014 at 2:05 pm

          Do you think multinationals shouldn’t pay their fair share of tax or not, Gosman?

        • phillip ure 30.1.2.2
          30 July 2014 at 2:19 pm

          no gossie..just ensuring they pay their tax…

          ..r u ‘relaxed’ about these thieving-bastards ripping us blind…?

          • blue leopard 30.1.2.2.1
            30 July 2014 at 4:17 pm

            …Gosman has suddenly come over all coy about responding. Funny thing that.

            [lprent: Could be working? After all that is why my moderation sweeps have gotten more intermittent. ]

          • Draco T Bastard 30.1.2.2.2
            30 July 2014 at 5:40 pm

            He probably is one of those thieving bastards.

        • Daveosaurus 30.1.2.3
          30 July 2014 at 5:24 pm

          “Yes, just like a political commissionar in the old soviet union.”

          Or like a political commissar in Radio New Zealand: the purpose Richard Griffin has been fulfilling for the past few years.

    • Puckish Rogue 30.2
      30 July 2014 at 1:45 pm

      Will that include unions that don’t pay their fair share as well?

      • blue leopard 30.2.1
        30 July 2014 at 1:50 pm

        Are unions ‘multinationals’?

        • Puckish Rogue 30.2.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 2:29 pm

          So unions get a free pass on tax, good to know

          • blue leopard 30.2.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 2:43 pm

            Don’t know how you arrive at that conclusion

          • Puddleglum 30.2.1.1.2
            30 July 2014 at 3:36 pm

            Oh, for goodness’ sake.

            Unions will get no more of a ‘free pass’ on tax than any New Zealand-based business or other organisation currently does.

            This policy is an additional tax enforcement strengthening measure and not the removal of all tax enforcement for everyone other than some errant multinationals.

            • Puckish Rogue 30.2.1.1.2.1
              30 July 2014 at 4:13 pm

              Yes I can just see Cunliffe going after the unions for tax money…

              • blue leopard …
                30 July 2014 at 4:16 pm

                Do you think multinationals shouldn’t have to pay their fair share of tax?

              • bad12 …
                30 July 2014 at 4:44 pm

                Puckish, David Cunliffe as far as i know does not collect taxes, the IRD involve themselves in that activity,

                i see no suggestion from you or the Labour Party that Trade Unions will be absolved from taxes by altering of the current Legislation which makes your comment somewhat deserving of a multiple lettered epithet starting with the consonant, (you choose)…

            • blue leopard 30.2.1.1.2.2
              30 July 2014 at 4:14 pm

              Those right-wing hacks/commenters are so irrational…and yet they are the type to trust that ‘markets players are rational’ – you couldn’t make this stuff up.

      • Tracey 30.2.2
        30 July 2014 at 3:43 pm

        You need to pop away and research multinational. Clue its not a terms for national mps who change their positions on things many times

  31. Weepus beard 31
    30 July 2014 at 2:05 pm

    Further to the decreasing voter turnout debate…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/assignments/will-you-be-voting-in-this-election/10327597/I-value-my-privacy-more-than-my-vote

    People such as the writer of this article apparently fall outside the expected group of low income folk, people in debt or worried about immigration status, etc.

    I think this group who just don’t want their details bought and sold for business gain is growing.

    Anyone got a good reason for the roll to be published at all? I can’t see why and I bet the turnout would go through the roof if voters were allowed to remain anonymous, just as the vote they cast is.

    • Draco T Bastard 31.1
      30 July 2014 at 5:47 pm

      Anyone got a good reason for the roll to be published at all?

      Not that I know of.

      That said, it was possibly an idea that someone had that people would be able to look at the role and see if there were people on it that shouldn’t be. It may have worked if communities stayed below about 1000 people and everyone knew everyone else. Won’t work in any community above that size though.

      And these days we have better options to ensure that people are registered where they should be without having to make the role publicly available.

      • Weepus beard 31.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 6:17 pm

        It’s up to the EC to decide who should and should not be on the roll, not the public. So at the moment you have to register by paper, or online using RealMe. Even using RealMe you have to open an account then go to a postshop and have your photo taken.

        Even after all of this I cannot see a reason for publishing unless the EC have been given a directive to fund themselves by selling voters’ information to third parties.

        Ie, user pays, even when voting, a basic right in any democracy.

  33. bad12 33
    30 July 2014 at 5:09 pm

    News from my wireless, RadioNZ National, the Government has announced it will establish a private company to take over the Education Payroll from Novopay,

    Novopay is said to be paying the Government an undisclosed amount as penalty payment for a system that still fails to fulfill its expectations,

    Gee only how many years too late and the ‘problems’ in the system will still have to be addressed by this ‘private company’…

    • Puddleglum 33.1
      30 July 2014 at 6:25 pm

      From, I think, the same item on Checkpoint Stephen Joyce admitted that the taxpayer was picking up the larger share of the tab because there was “blame on both sides”. The Ministry had, apparently, bungled some things too. He didn’t mention who the negligent Minister was who has just cost us this coin.

      Then, when asked if this was a case of the public sector being better than the private sector Joyce said words to the effect of ‘not at all, it simply happens that the government holds one side of the contract in this case and is taking over’.

      But I thought that governments and their bureaucracies just can’t do this sort of stuff. Wouldn’t they be the last type of organisation you’d therefore turn to for a safe pair of hands in this kind of situation?

      Aren’t things like payrolls just too tricky by half for them to get their heads around. The private sector, on the other hand …

  34. adam 34
    30 July 2014 at 5:18 pm

    Do we need another Henare voted into Parliament? The last one was bad enough. Is it not time for labour supporters to start voting for greens and other candidates in electorates? Labour activist here and elsewhere, keep begging the left not to split the vote. The gall to ask people to hold there noses and vote for some Tory scum in red clothing.

    How about all those so called supporters of working people advise/aid/direct, or just be honest about some of the candidates that the labour party have put up. Phil Goff, Stuart (I think your grandfather is rolling in his grave) Nash, I’m sure others can be added to this list.

    These are the evil shits we need to remove, the elephant in the room – how much longer labour people, how much longer you going to push the dead donkey?

    Why do labour supporters keep putting up with these scum?

    In the interests of working people any chance we can have an honest debate about the dead chaff in Labour who are hell bent on losing this election? Or am I going to get called a right wing troll – stupid or some other slagging off? Are the labour faithful going to go into fits of there own self-righteousness, and cling to any old Tory wannabe?

    You say you like David Cunliff, yet he keeps being treated like shit. Labour have finally put up a leader who will make a bloody decent PM. And it is these MP wannabes who seem to me the happiest to poop in their own nest. Quite frankly, it reeks of the politics of self interest.

  35. silverbullet 35
    30 July 2014 at 6:02 pm

    Everyone is accusing Jamie Whyte from the Act Party of being a racist.

    Hypothetically speaking, if his partner was black, like I mean black black, would that change anything?

    [lprent: Everybody? Don’t be a fool. There are usually thousands of people reading this site every day and a few hundred commenting. I guess you can’t count or have the common neolib inflationary view that expands the few fools in Act into a “movement”. I’d suggest that if you’re going to indulge in hyperbole, that you don’t do it about this site. That draws my attention to the dickheads doing it because I will answer for the site.

    I really hate wasting time on peewees who measure their dicks using a magnifying glass for that extra size inflation. Read the policy. ]

    • Weepus beard 35.1
      30 July 2014 at 6:23 pm

      No. Notwithstanding his personal family situation, to claim Maori are unjustly privileged is unhelpful to New Zealand, and racist. We intend to be different to African and American history here.

      In addition, to describe someone as black is one thing, silverbullet, but to then describe someone as “black black” is…

      racist.

      Go put your pointy white hat on.

      • silverbullet 35.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 6:39 pm

        Go put your Stalinist comrade uniform on – oh hang on, you are already wearing it.

        [lprent: I suggest that you read the policy. You appear to be wearing a troll uniform. Lets be nice and imagine that it is like this…

        This is your one warning about being a dickhead jerking off on our site. Engage with the conversation or leave before I have to toss you off the site. Leading up to an election, I really can’t be bothered being tolerant of mindless fools who try to imagine that they are sophisticated smartarses. ]

        • Weepus beard 35.1.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 6:50 pm

          If any current NZ leader could be compared to Stalin it is John Key. Figuratively, the similarities between Key’s rejuvenation drive to the great purge in the 1920’s are alarming.

          • silverbullet 35.1.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 7:17 pm

            Your Far Left ideology is grounded in the philosophy of Marxism, with its “class consciousness”, “class conflict” and some future “workers paradise” type utopia.

    • Daveosaurus 35.2
      30 July 2014 at 6:29 pm

      Nothing other than the slight possibility of making fellow racists less likely to vote for him.

    • bad12 35.3
      30 July 2014 at 6:31 pm

      Seeing as you asked silverbullet, NO, racism is not confined within one racial grouping, a white male for instance with an African American partner could for instance express hatred for Maori and rightly be labeled a racist,

      The term racist does not presuppose that there is hatred of all the races other than that of the racist, the racist might only be so concerning one race other than his own to be a racist…

      • silverbullet 35.3.1
        30 July 2014 at 6:42 pm

        Seriously? Its always been about white vs the rest. So it does bring into question hypothetically that Whyte really is racist if he is married to someone of African descent and has kids too…

        • Weepus beard 35.3.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 6:53 pm

          You were the one who brought up white vs “the rest” (ie brown, black, yellow).

          You might want to stop digging.

          • silverbullet 35.3.1.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 7:14 pm

            Who are you kidding? The meme has always been white oppressors vs the oppressed ethnics, Comrade Weepy.

            • felix 35.3.1.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 11:27 pm

              I’m really sorry this exchange didn’t go the way you planned, and that’s left you arguing against a case that no-one seems to be making, but what’s happening here is obvious. Jamie Unclecousin is attacking maori so racists will vote for ACT.

              Now that might be a racist thing to do, or it might just be a selfish stupid short-sighted evil nasty cynical divisive corrosive thing to do. But either way, it has nothing to do with his wife, just as it had nothing to do with Don Brash’s wife when he pulled the exact same stunt 10 years ago.

              What we do know is that no good can come of it. It will make some people in our society angry about other people in our society. It will hurt people. It will hurt race relations. And it will not achieve a single positive thing.

              • Tracey …
                31 July 2014 at 9:58 am

                plus bloody 1

                “tough on crime” is their main clarion call in Epsom, despite the Govt, of which they were a part, until their only member committed… a crime… tells us crime is falling and we are safer than ever.

                So

                1. Tough on crime
                  2.Maori are too privileged

                AND they will get a seat in parliament… Over 17% of their sitting MPs have committed crimes…People of Epsom worship at the later of money

        • bad12 35.3.1.2
          30 July 2014 at 7:28 pm

          🙄 Continuing the conversation with you would be an exercise in legitimizing abject stupidity, yours that is, 🙄 …

  36. Draco T Bastard 36
    30 July 2014 at 6:32 pm

    Just heard on the TV that we’ve paid x millions to Talent2 for the Novapay fuckup and that we’re then going to paying another nine million over the next six years as well. Wish I could get a job like that – paid for fucking it up, paid to be fired from it and then 6 year multi-million dollar redundancy package.

    • Anne 36.1
      30 July 2014 at 6:38 pm

      In short, does that mean they’re being paid to keep their mouth’s shut?

    • Weepus beard 36.2
      30 July 2014 at 6:55 pm

      Key spun it as the sensible thing to do. Might have been sensible 2 years ago, but not now. Now it looks like the Minister of fix-its didn’t fix it.

      Where is the minister of Education in all of this?

      • greywarbler 36.2.1
        30 July 2014 at 7:19 pm

        @ Weepus beard 6.55
        “Where is the minister of Education in all of this?She has learned when to keep her mouth shut.”

        These words by Graham Nash have substance and they say what we are all thinking here! And we need to rouse them and ourselves and follow our dreams during the day and night – dreams for a happy, functioning society. I think there might be an odd word in it.

        From musixmatch
        “Teach Your Children”

        You, who are on the road must have a code that you can live by.
        And so become yourself because the past is just a good bye.
        Teach your children well, their father’s hell did slowly go by,
        And feed them on your dreams, the one they fix, the one you’ll know by.
        Don’t you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
        So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

        And you, of the tender years can’t know the fears that your elders grew by,
        And so please help them with your youth, they seek the truth before they can die.
        Teach your parents well, their children’s hell will slowly go by,
        And feed them on your dreams, the one they fix,the one you’ll know by.
        Don’t you ever ask them why, if they told you, you would cry,
        So just look at them and sigh and know they love you.

        • greywarbler 36.2.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 7:32 pm

          This extract from Chris Trotter’s reply to Phil Quin referred to in Puddleglum 6.45 carries forward my comment about the necessity for igniting the dream. I fear that the generations since 1984 have been unable to imbibe enough of that message from their parents, and certainly not from school or any other formal or informal education. One reason they may not feel like voting.

          The people whose precarious position of privilege vis-a-vis the working poor and beneficiaries renders them unashamedly reluctant to redistribute even a little of the wealth they have “worked for”.
          Beneath a superficial “concern” for the disadvantaged, these voters conceal a visceral contempt for the poor. They are terrified of being forced to share their resources with the “underserving” and will have absolutely no truck with any political party which suggests that, as citizens, they have a moral obligation to put an end to inequality and poverty. –
          See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/07/30/the-40-percent-solution-chris-trotter-responds-to-phil-quin/#sthash.0TbWppqF.dpuf

  37. Puddleglum 37
    30 July 2014 at 6:45 pm

    Chris Trotter’s response to Phil Quin.

    I have to admit that I am stunned that there is still such a thing as a ‘Labour Right’ that extends so far to the right that its apparent members (Pagani, Quin, Jones) are essentially pushing an economic approach that actively undermines the welfare of just those people that Labour Parties around the world were set up to represent and advance.

    How on earth is such an economic policy orientation part of any ‘Labour’ approach?

    Do words mean nothing anymore?

    • silverbullet 37.1
      30 July 2014 at 7:19 pm

      You can thank the Post Modernists for the meaningless of language these days, they are after all the bastard children of ‘Progressive’ Left Neo Marxist ideology.

      • Draco T Bastard 37.1.1
        30 July 2014 at 7:36 pm

        Nope, the language has been screwed over by the RWNJs to further their own goals against the majority of people.

      • Puddleglum 37.1.2
        30 July 2014 at 7:42 pm

        I’m not sure it’s that straightforward.

        I think you need to distinguish between postmodernism as an intellectual current and postmodernity as a hypothesised economic, social and cultural transformation of modernity.

        The latter is exemplified by ‘late consumer capitalism’ and all of its attendant industries (marketing, advertising, media, design, etc.) and the emergence of a supposedly new social class (highly educated, high income, usually employed in the industries just mentioned) for whom ‘cultural capital’ is an additional boasting right (on top of other forms of capital).

        To be honest, I think it is postmodernity (or the cultural and economic conditions that that term usually refers to) that is responsible for any loss of meaning in our use of language. That loss of meaning is present in managerialism-speak, marketing-speak, neoliberalism-speak (which is increasingly commerce-speak) and, sadly, political-speak.

        This morphing flexibility in linguistic meaning comes very close, of course, to old-fashioned lying – semantic relativism taken to its logical conclusion.

        For me that logical conclusion is forever epitomised by John Key’s one-time reference to ‘the dynamic environment’ to explain why the meaning of his words change over time (or something like that).

        By comparison, I think the influence of postmodernist theorists over the actual loss of meaning in everyday practice is infinitesimal.

        I’m afraid your ‘silverbullet’ just missed what should have been its real target.

        • greywarbler 37.1.2.1
          31 July 2014 at 3:41 pm

          @Puddleglum 7.42
          Your comment on ‘the dynamic environment’ and changes in meaning reminds me of something that Thomas Belmonte wrote and I think called it protean, about the changing, sometimes conflicting and changing beliefs of people rather lost in a changing society. He was impressed how people could be Catholic and Communist at the same time etc.

          I looked up protean and came on this psycholgist who has done work on Nasties and their psychology and the Holocaust. Then he has posited two streams of people management – one called totalism and has presented proteanism as being the opposite.

          I don’t know whether this is useful towards understanding what is exercising people’s minds at present but it is interesting.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jay_Lifton

    • Olwyn 37.2
      30 July 2014 at 7:23 pm

      Indeed. I made a similar remark at 21.1.1.2. The broad church concept is meaningful where someone like, say, Damien O’Connor, is concerned, beavering away on behalf of the West Coast. He is often considered to be of the right of the party, but he still able to say he sees social justice and regional development as his missions. However, the people you list seem to want to remain in the Labour Party while casting aside everything it stands for.

      • silverbullet 37.2.1
        30 July 2014 at 7:31 pm

        The real schism in the Labour Part is between the traditional working class and the academic Identity Politics crowd – the latter having a strangle hold on the Labour Party which is a shadow of its former self.

        • Puddleglum 37.2.1.1
          30 July 2014 at 7:47 pm

          No, the most significant parting of the ways will always be when one faction believes that it should be serving the interests of the powerful and entrenched rather than the powerless, dispossessed and marginalised.

          Clever justifications for serving powerful interests (trickle-down, etc.) will never resolve that betrayal, I’m afraid.

        • karol 37.2.1.2
          30 July 2014 at 8:32 pm

          Who in the current Labour caucus would you say is part of the “academic Identity Politics crowd”?

          I’m struggling to make seense of that.

          I suspect you are muddling a range of concepts.

          I’m with pg. It’s more about those who’ve bought into the third way pandering to the comfortable middle classes as a route to electoral victory.

      • Puddleglum 37.2.2
        30 July 2014 at 7:59 pm

        Agreed.

        I have no problems with someone like O’Connor being ‘Labour’. And I’m even enough of a pragmatist to accept that some in the Labour caucus would want to make some sort of ‘truce’ or compromise with the ‘neo-liberal consensus’.

        What I really can’t fathom is people who are not satisfied with ‘accommodating’ neoliberalism but seem bent on actively extending its reach and pushing it further into our social and economic arrangements – just because that’s what National is doing and ‘Ooo, look how popular National are!’.

        It’s just mind-boggling that someone wishing to do that would even want to be in the Labour Party.

        • mickysavage 37.2.2.1
          30 July 2014 at 9:18 pm

          Aye.

          I just wish that when the media went for people who can talk intelligently on the Labour Party they would choose people that I knew! Mike Williams can do it. He has a grassroots understanding of the party.

          Pagani and Quin cannot. Honest I have been heavily involved in the party for the past 15 years and I have not met either of them. I met John Pagani but this does not qualify him as someone who can talk intelligibly on the party.

          There are people who come and go at the “upper” level but they have no comprehension about what is happening at the activist level.

          • lprent 37.2.2.1.1
            30 July 2014 at 9:58 pm

            Pagani and Quin cannot. Honest I have been heavily involved in the party for the past 15 years and I have not met either of them. I met John Pagani but this does not qualify him as someone who can talk intelligibly on the party

            I know exactly what you mean. I’ve met John Pagani once and wasn’t that impressed. His campaigning felt like it was out of the ark (mind you most of the MPs are worse). Never met the other two that I am aware of. And I’ve been to the majority of the conferences and congresses in one capacity or another over the last 25 years which is where you’d expect to meet Labour party people. I still do even though I’m in the media room rather than the remit floor.

            • blue leopard 37.2.2.1.1.1
              30 July 2014 at 10:20 pm

              @ MS & lprent,

              That is truly horrible that the people commenting in the media as though they are informed about Labour – or as though they are insiders – may not be even actively involved in the Party – that really is terrible to hear.

              Why can’t the media find more informed voices to comment on these political current affairs? (Not really a question – more of a plea).

              • lprent …
                31 July 2014 at 4:07 am

                Basically because damn near everyone who is suitable is also actively working during the day for a variety of private and public organisations and volunteering at night. Generally companies like my current employers have contract clauses that limit how much time I can take during paid hours and conflict of interest clauses that limit me in the rest. I also have many claims on my “free” time.

                It takes time to write articles, prep for interviews and panels, or anything else.

                Hell the one interview I have ever done involved me in a 3 hour hole in the middle of my working day driving from Albany to Newmarket, doing a segment, and then going back to work. I then worked 3 hours extra that day, which interfered with the volunteer work for the rest of the week as I caught up.

                The people who are left over to become talking heads are those who aren’t particularly actively involved, those developing careers as talking heads, or who are semi-retired.

                For everyone else who works a lot, the whole thing is a confounded nuisance.

    • bad12 37.3
      30 July 2014 at 7:52 pm

      Well written from Chris Trotter, thanks for the link as i forget sometimes to cast an eye over the daily offering from that direction,

      40% as far as the vote goes is totally unnecessary in the enviroment of MMP, these numbers, Labour 33%, Greens 12%, InternetMana 5%, are hardly wildly optimistic, they do tho shout out 50% at the September vote…

  38. greywarbler 38
    30 July 2014 at 7:59 pm

    I have a little anecdote. Talking to an older woman with health problems. Mentioned that it was very hard for unemployed and mentioned the recent comment that people are required to apply for 5 jobs a day and may still have their benefit withdrawn.

    She said that was awful but she couldn’t cope with it, she needed to just manage and carry on quietly. I said well don’t vote for National will you. But I like John Key she said, he seems nice, (or something of that nature). She said with a smile, is that the end of the lecture. We smiled and went on with our day.

    • Chooky 38.1
      30 July 2014 at 10:54 pm

      greywarbler …that is very depressing when you meet idiots like that…however after her encounter with you this timid soul may change her vote once she gets in the voting booth

    • Clemgeopin 38.2
      31 July 2014 at 9:33 am

      Interesting you should say that, because i had a similar, but more disturbing experience. The person I was talking to was a 50 plus year old primary school teacher who said that she would be voting National because she said, she likes key! I was very surprised that she was so naive. I try to change her reasoning, but she actually was peeved with me and did not want to discus the issue.

      Shows that lots of people have been fooled and conned so very easily by the smiling assassin!

      Nats know this. No wonder they have chosen #Team Key as their slogan.

      People are in pretty bad, sad political/enlightened state in modern NZ!

      • greywarbler 38.2.1
        31 July 2014 at 3:16 pm

        @ Chooky 10.54 and Clemgeopin
        “that is very depressing when you meet idiots like that”
        Trouble is she is not an idiot. But I think one of many NZs who want to leave the pollies to govern, as that being their job, and have never been taught how fragile democracy is, and our firm opinions are (not firm at all – able to be changed fast with a propaganda campaign.) To many NZs, having an interest in politics is a hobby, it is akin to stamp collecting, or it is for go-getters who are pushing their wheelbarrow not for ordinary people.

        Then there are those who can hardly bring themelves to complain about anything apart from blocks to whatever is dear to their heart. What right do we have to disagree with the confident con men and fabulists who tell us all they want us to know, and are never guilty of wrongdoing, at worst whatever – was a little mistake – just a tiny, teeny one. We all have a little cringe built-in. We have got confused, don’t have a dream for NZ, don’t have even a workable vision – given up on pollies substance and just see the candy floss. Poem for today’s pollies, there for us at election time with hearts on sleeves, and then after the election – a different story.
        W. H. Mearns – Antigonish


        Yesterday upon the stair
        I met a man who wasn’t there
        He wasn’t there again today
        I wish, I wish he’d go away

        When I came home last night at three
        The man was waiting there for me
        But when I looked around the hall
        I couldn’t see him there at all!

  39. Chooky 39
    30 July 2014 at 10:57 pm

    By Robert Fisk

    “It’s not just radicalised Islamists – what about foreign fighters who flock to the IDF?
    Is the Government interested in UK citizens who have been fighting in Israeli uniform in Gaza in the past couple of weeks?…

    Let me be frank. Dozens of British supporters of Israel do serve in the Israeli army. The same applies for Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the US. And they don’t necessarily gravitate to being war criminals. This may not be what an Arab would say – and it is certainly not what Israelis would suggest. But there is plenty of evidence – from 1982 in Lebanon, from 1996 in Qana, from 2008-9 in Gaza and again in Gaza these past two weeks – that individual Israeli soldiers and pilots have committed acts which, under international law, are war crimes…

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/its-not-just-radicalised-islamists–what-about-foreign-fighters-who-flock-to-the-idf-9634260.html

  40. xtasy 40
    31 July 2014 at 2:32 am

    Maybe NZ needs some of this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZCRaOnqefI

    It will hit you sooner or later, what goes on in Ukraine, in Middle and Near East, and many other parts of the world, New Zealand is not insulated and will be affected.

    MORE to come!

  41. tricledrown 41
    31 July 2014 at 6:46 am

    After Ukips success in the UK and EU elections NZ polictions are trying to jump on the bandwagon but NZ has only a limited number of racist so it will be slim pickings for Winnie the poo ,in reading whyte supremacist and Crazy Colon Craig.

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    More Than A FeildingBy David Slack
    3 days ago

  • Howling at the Moon
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    3 days ago

  • Newshub is Dead.
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  • Seymour is chuffed about cutting early-learning red tape – but we hear, too, that Jones has loose...
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    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    3 days ago

  • Bryce Edwards: Will politicians let democracy die in the darkness?
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  • Was Hawkesby entirely wrong?
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  • PRC shadow looms as the Solomons head for election
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
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  • Climate Change: Criminal ecocide
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    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
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  • Is saving one minute of a politician's time worth nearly $1 billion?
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    3 days ago

  • Long Tunnel or Long Con?
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    Greater AucklandBy Matt L
    4 days ago

  • Smoke And Mirrors.
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  • What is Mexico doing about climate change?
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    4 days ago

  • State of humanity, 2024
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    4 days ago

  • Govt’s Wellington tunnel vision aims to ease the way to the airport (but zealous promoters of cycl...
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    Point of OrderBy Bob Edlin
    4 days ago

  • The case for cultural connectedness
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    Point of OrderBy poonzteam5443
    4 days ago

  • Useful context on public sector job cuts
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  • Gordon Campbell On When Racism Comes Disguised As Anti-racism
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  • Govt ignored economic analysis of smokefree reversal
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    The KakaBy Bernard Hickey
    5 days ago

  • True Blue.
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  • Who is running New Zealand’s foreign policy?
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  • 2024 SkS Weekly Climate Change & Global Warming News Roundup #15
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  • $41m to support clean energy in South East Asia
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  • Minister releases Fast-track stakeholder list
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    8 hours ago

  • Judicial appointments announced
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    9 hours ago

  • Education Minister heads to major teaching summit in Singapore
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  • Value of stopbank project proven during cyclone
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    10 hours ago

  • Anzac commemorations, Türkiye relationship focus of visit
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  • Minister to Europe for OECD meeting, Anzac Day
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  • Comprehensive Partnership the goal for NZ and the Philippines
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    24 hours ago

  • Government commits $20m to Westport flood protection
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    1 day ago

  • Taupō takes pole position
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  • Cost of living support for low-income homeowners
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    1 day ago

  • Government backing mussel spat project
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    1 day ago

  • Government focused on getting people into work
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    1 day ago

  • Clean energy key driver to reducing emissions
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  • Earthquake-prone buildings review brought forward
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  • Thailand and NZ to agree to Strategic Partnership
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  • Government consults on extending coastal permits for ports
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    2 days ago

  • Inflation coming down, but more work to do
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    2 days ago

  • School attendance restored as a priority in health advice
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    2 days ago

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    3 days ago

  • Patterson promoting NZ’s wool sector at International Congress
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  • Removing red tape to help early learners thrive
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  • RMA changes to cut coal mining consent red tape
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  • McClay reaffirms strong NZ-China trade relationship
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  • Prime Minister Luxon acknowledges legacy of Singapore Prime Minister Lee
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  • PMs Luxon and Lee deepen Singapore-NZ ties
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  • Antarctica New Zealand Board appointments
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    4 days ago

  • Finance Minister travels to Washington DC
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  • Pet bonds a win/win for renters and landlords
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    4 days ago

  • Long Tunnel for SH1 Wellington being considered
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  • New Zealand condemns Iranian strikes
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  • Huge interest in Government’s infrastructure plans
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  • Health Minister thanks outgoing Health New Zealand Chair
    Health Minister Dr Shane Reti has today thanked outgoing Health New Zealand – Te Whatu Ora Chair Dame Karen Poutasi for her service on the Board.   “Dame Karen tendered her resignation as Chair and as a member of the Board today,” says Dr Reti.  “I have asked her to ...
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  • Roads of National Significance planning underway
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  • Navigating an unstable global environment
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  • NZ welcomes Australian Governor-General
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  • Pseudoephedrine back on shelves for Winter
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  • NZ and the US: an ever closer partnership
    New Zealand and the United States have recommitted to their strategic partnership in Washington DC today, pledging to work ever more closely together in support of shared values and interests, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says.    “The strategic environment that New Zealand and the United States face is considerably more ...
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  • Joint US and NZ declaration
    April 11, 2024 Joint Declaration by United States Secretary of State the Honorable Antony J. Blinken and New Zealand Minister of Foreign Affairs the Right Honourable Winston Peters We met today in Washington, D.C. to recommit to the historic partnership between our two countries and the principles that underpin it—rule ...
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    1 week ago

  • NZ and US to undertake further practical Pacific cooperation
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    1 week ago

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