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Open mike 31/01/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 31st, 2013 - 248 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

248 comments on “Open mike 31/01/2013”

  1. Jenny 1

    HARRY FEAR & ROGER FOWLER WERE IN GAZA AS THE BOMBS FELL

    – COME AND HEAR THEIR “GAZA REPORT ” NEXT THURSDAY.

    – FREE SOUTH AUCKLAND BUS DEPARTS FROM
    THE MANGERE EAST COMMUNTY CENTRE, 372 MASSEY RD at 6pm…

    Arriving early, for the 7pm Thursday 7 February meeting at the Auckland University Library

    Lecture Room B28

    Alfred St, City.

    All welcome

     Legendary reggae band ‘Unity Pacific’ will perform their hit song “We are all Palestinians”.

    Hosted by Auckland University Students For Justice in Palestine.

    Website: uoasjp.wordpress.com

    Organised by Kia Ora Gaza.
    Website: kiaoragaza.net

    No door charge, but donations towards the costs will be gratefully accepted.

    Harry is on a world speaking tour, while in NZ he will also speak in Wellington & Christchurch.
    See the Kia Ora Gaza website or FaceBook for details

    • One Tāne Huna 1.1

      Jenny is obviously going soft on climate change: this comment doesn’t mention it once ;)

        • Jenny 1.1.1.1

          Thanks for this heads up QoT.

          • Jenny 1.1.1.1.1

            Thanks for bringing this to my attention Qot. Much appreciated.

            Without your assistance I would have missed this.

            You are right this is a damn good speech. Keep up the good work Russel.

            The only thing is, Key skewered him over the Emissions Trading Scheme. The fact of the matter is that the Pollution Trading Scheme, as it should accurately be called, is a Labour Party and National Government supported scheme to let the polluters off the hook. If I remember the debate properly, (and I do), at the time the Green Party had severe reservations about the PTS. Reservations that have been proved correct.

            Now is the perfect time to rip the veil off and expose those who really support this dirty scheme.

            Key in his reply, threatened Russel Norman that if the climate debate comes up in the election he will use the Pollution Trading Scheme to flay the Green Party.

            The Green Party need to answer fire with fire.

            And expose the Nats for their support for this scheme, that lets polluters off the hook to freely pollute at will. And dumps the bill on the taxpayers.

            I call on the Green Party to put up private members bill calling for the complete repeal of the falsely named, Emissions Trading Scheme.

            This will lead to a real debate on how to concretely cut back on our CO2 emissions, that is being held back though the use of this phoney scheme.

            Let’s make New Zealand free to become a shining example to the world.

            My proposed bill: The Green Party calls on parliament to completely abolish the Emissions Trading Scheme. the purpose of this bill to clear the ground for parliament to discuss a more proper and equable way to concretely cut our CO2 emissions.

            Let’s have this debate in parliament. Right here. Right now, and during the elections. Without this terrible charade, clouding the issue.

            Whether it is the National, or Labour Party version of the Pollution Trading Scheme both versions permit Business As Usual to carry on regardless. (Which was the intention).

            Such an initiative if taken up by the Green Party caucus will earn them banner headlines and the respect of all sections of society. (Except the fossil fuel industry barons, who love this scheme.)

            To win the debate on climate change the Green Party need to get rid of this dead albatross that the Labour and National Parties have draped on their shoulders.

            Will the Greens expose this dirty scheme?

            Or is this as good as it gets?

            • bad12 1.1.1.1.1.1

              Now which legislation do you want the Green Party to put into the ballot first Jenny, the ‘we ban all coal mining bill’ or ‘the we can the Emissions Trading Scam in favor of a carbon tax bill’,

              Now you might have to wait for quite some time Jenny because there’s this little Parliamentary convention that Opposition Party’s don’t just get to propose Legislation, they have to go in a ballot Jenny, some go in and never see the light of day Jenny and that’s just the nature of ballots…

              • Jenny

                I will never win Lotto, because I never buy a ticket. Some bills go in the ballot and never see the light of day. Don’t you think the odds are much improved for a bill being drawn, if it is actually in the draw.

                What are you really trying to say here, Bad?

                For goodness sakes don’t put any bills like this in, in case they get drawn?

      • Jenny 1.1.2

        “We are all Palestinians”, captures it. (If we are not, we will be soon)

  2. KhandallaViper 2

    Now THAT is how one gives a speech.

    Take a look at one of our Electorate MPs in action yesterday in Parliament.

    http://youtu.be/ON6vInrDbhk

    • karol 2.1

      Ah, yes. He got my electorate vote the last couple of elections, and will get it again if I am living in his electorate again next year.

      “Bottom up” government, eh?

      • One Tāne Huna 2.1.1

        “The strength of our ideas has always come from the grass roots.”

        You see? He’s supporting the membership against the leader! Treason!

    • Daveo 2.2

      That’s a great speech from Cunliffe. He gets the left-wing economics, and he gets the need to democratise and listen to the grassroots. What a loss.

      • Dr Terry 2.2.1

        Yes Daveo what a loss indeed! Small wonder Shearer is so very afraid of him, he could never match sheer brilliance of this nature. But, incredibly, still looks as though Labour is content to settle for second (or third) best.

        • fenderviper 2.2.1.1

          Definitely 3rd. Parker would have been 100% better than Shearer, Cunliffe a thousand times better and some.

    • Bill 2.3

      Given the limitations of the paradigm he operates from within and bearing in mind there are some fundamental aspects of that paradigm that are anathema to me…there was a lot in that speech that came across as positive and that would win my support.

      And I’m aware he was accomodating the present Labour Party’s perspective and yet…well, let me put it this way: Dare I listen to David Shearer’s speech and compare the two? Nah. It would just blast away any positive feelings that Cunliffe’s speech has generated.

      And the opening lines that referred to Melon(?) of the US Treasury(?) speaking in the 30’s? I was honestly thinking ‘Shearer, Shearer, Shearer’ – not ‘Key, Key, Key’. Was it deliberately ambigious? I don’t know. I can only state my reaction.

      And politics ‘with people’ and not ‘to people’ – and being ‘hands on’ with regards to the levers of economic management sounds to me to be a million miles away from David Shearer’s ‘hands on’. His ‘hands on’ leaves me suspecting heavy handedness and interference in areas way beyond basic economic matters and has me gearing up for something a bit dirty, dodgy and unwelcome.

      And wasn’t it soooo refreshing to hear a Labour Party mp express empathy for the unemployed rather banging on about the unemployed ‘doing their bit’ to earn the grace of a government and its conditional support?

        • Bill 2.3.1.1

          And the snippet that brought Shearer to the forefront of my mind?

          People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted…

          It just dovetails right on into the likes of

          My promise to you as Prime Minister is that I will always stand up for the hardworking, forgotten New Zealanders. You’re doing your bit, it’s time you had a Government that did its bit too.

          and

          A Government that says: you do your bit, we’ll do ours. That’s what a Labour Government will do. That’s what a government I lead will do

          To me that’s a whole lot of ‘hands on’ and no obvious ‘hands up’. Be ‘good’ and exhibit the ‘correct’ forms of behaviour and we’ll be there for you. Otherwise…

          Now contrast that with doing politics ‘with people’ and not ‘to people’.

        • Rogue Trooper 2.3.1.2

          ta

      • CV - Real Labour 2.3.2

        en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_W._Mellon

        Yet another bankster in the US government

      • Draco T Bastard 2.3.3

        Given the limitations of the paradigm he operates from within…

        Yep, such as this bit:

        change that sees unions, for example, as a core part of building better workplaces, not as a cost to be saved.

        Still in the capitalist paradigm. It’s not that we need unions as that we need for our businesses to be cooperatives controlled by the workers for the workers rather than owned and controlled by a few for the benefit of a few (who probably don’t even work there).

        Labour, under David Shearer, is called on again to take up its historic mission of hands-on Government, of big change, of a new era, and of a better way that does politics with our people, not to them;

        That’s good but, so far, I haven’t seen any such commitment from Shearer.

      • Colonial Weka 2.3.4

        And this –

        “Finally, it is time we restored pride in being a Kiwi. So Labour’s new direction will be built on a strong, high-value economy and the values of social inclusion, tolerance, and diversity that are the hallmark of any great society.

        Labour, under David Shearer, is called on again to take up its historic mission of hands-on Government, of big change, of a new era, and of a better way that does politics with our people, not to them; that empowers New Zealanders from the bottom up; that does not slash them from the top down; that builds a high-value economy; that delivers an inclusive society; that champions a sustainable environment; and that celebrates our unique identity.”

        Pretty clear on many levels what is being said there.

        • Jenny 2.3.4.1

          Yes Cunliffe did mention ‘the environment’. Just as the Green Party mention ‘the environment’ but play down climate change.

          I can’t help getting the feeling that Cunliffe has had his wings clipped, so as not to upset the Obama/Romney type gentleman’s agreement not to bring up climate change during the upcoming elections.

    • David H 2.4

      Yes and as usual it was the best speech out of the Labour camp. And after watching Meteria Turei and Julie Ann Genter, is there any wonder that this time around I will tick Green and NOT Red. But I am still going through the replies to Key’s Alcohol fueled? rant in Parliament. So now for some light relief, and with ALL translators running. I get to Hekia Parata’s speech it should be interesting.

    • ad 2.5

      Anyone who was at the town hall meetings last time in which Cunliffe was head to head against Shearer will know how Cunliffe can rock the hall and leave the rest of them just unable to follow. They can hate on him all they like, he’s the best speaker Labour has in the entire party.

      Cunliffe is the primary opposite of Key; Key has got by for so long on jokes and winning a room with charm, while all the fun ruthless steel with officials gets done by Joyce and Brownlee. With Cunliffe you know it will be quite humorless and earnest, but you sure know what’s coming: it will be breakthrough government, bold and break and remake government. The fun ruthles steel will be right out in the open.

      It will be what he did to Telecom, except across every portfolio. I would love to hear Russell Norman say what he would break and remake. Because I know there is only one person National fears getting the leadership of Labour and of the country, and it ain’t David Shearer.

  3. karol 3

    Gareth Hughes makes some very good points about the first fines dished out via a Skynet file downloading/uploading decision:

    The case was won by the Recording Industry Association of New Zealand (RIANZ) against an unnamed female Telecom customer who had downloaded a Rihanna song ‘Man Down’ and has ordered her to pay $616.57.

    Leaving aside the question of whether it was smart for RIANZ to focus on downloading a Rihanna song in ‘defence’ of Kiwi artists or the music taste of the Telecom customer this first case raises a number of questions.

    Reading the Tribunal’s decision the first thing that jumps out is the acknowledgment that there is insufficient evidence for the tribunal make detailed findings on her defence but that the Act creates a statutory presumption that an infringement notice constitutes an infringement of the rights holders work. …

    The Telecom customers defence was that she didn’t realise downloading the ‘Man Down’ song was illegal, the second song ‘Tonight, Tonight’ wasn’t downloaded by her or anyone she knew and that the file downloading software possibly continued downloading ‘Man Down’ automatically leading to the subsequent ‘strike’ because she couldn’t remove the software. She accepts responsibility for the first song, deleted it and apologised.

    It looks like she is being punished for not being able to uninstall the software and possibly for having an unsecured wireless account or anonymous file-downloading house-guest.

    Chillingly the Tribunal notes the use of downloading software was ‘a deliberate act’ while this is so, as the Megaupload case has highlighted these types of file sharing sites can be used for legitimate lawful purposes and shouldn’t automatically be considered proof of online copyright infringement.

    While this Telecom customer is now $616.57 poorer and RIANZ have a successful ruling from the Tribunal under their belt it’s hard to argue the Skynet law has been effective at reducing infringing or supporting artists.

    • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 3.1

      Have these punitive companies never heard of warnings.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1

        I doubt if they’re really looking at these law suites stopping people but as another revenue source.

  4. just saying 4

    Am having some odd experiences trying to post a comment this morning, LPrent.

  5. just saying 5

    Laurie Penny, on fighting internet misogyny:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/laurie-penny/2013/01/take-back-net-its-time-end-culture-online-misogyny

    <i…..Asking for it. By daring to be a woman to be in public life, Mary Beard was asking to be abused and harassed and frightened, and so is any person who dares to express herself whilst in possession of a pair of tits.

    It’s an attitude so quotidian that only when you pause to pick it apart does its true horror become apparent. I am contacted, not every day, but most weeks, by young women who want to build lives as journalists or activists but are afraid of the possible backlash. Every time I receive one of these letters, I get a lurch of guilt: should I tell them the truth? Should I tell them that sometimes I’ve been so wracked with anxiety by the actions of trolls and stalkers that I’ve been afraid to leave the house, that I’ve had to call in the police, that there’s every chance they might too? Or should I tell them to be brave, to take it on the chin, to not be frightened, because their fear, their reticence to speak, is precisely what the trolls want to see most of all?….

    …The internet is a young country. Its laws and customs are not yet decided. We don’t have to accept sexist hatred in silence any more. This week, with many victims sharing their stories of online harassment on the hashtag #silentnomore, the fightback began in earnest.

    Special call to Brian Edwards, who is persisting in deriding those who use pseudonyms on the webs, on the grounds that he is able to use his real name and “what’s the difference’?

    • rosy 5.1

      “Mary Beard was asking to be abused and harassed and frightened, and so is any person who dares to express herself whilst in possession of a pair of tits.

      A pair of tits with long grey hair apparently makes it worse because it confuses the poor dears who can’t work out what sort of woman she’s meant to be. So they end up with ‘witch’.

      If you are bad at processing complex information, this combination will fry your brain. (What, a woman past breeding age still up for it? As if sex was all about procreation. As Beard may tell you, even the Romans used contraceptives.) And perhaps in this frazzled state you might lash out at the person who has made you confront this enigma – the woman who really shouldn’t turn you on, but who somehow causes you to have filthy thoughts. (Sound anything like your mother?)

      She can probably handle it, but I really feel for a lot of women who try to say anything controversial on the internet. They have the opposite problem – how can someone you might fancy possibly go on and on about things that are seriously challenging your world view?

    • vto 5.2

      “Special call to Brian Edwards, who is persisting in deriding those who use pseudonyms on the webs, on the grounds that he is able to use his real name and “what’s the difference’?”

      Really? Is the tosser still pouting like a child on this issue? Hey, Edwards, two things….. 1, stop reading this shit then and 2, do you understand why voting is confidential and not public?

      doh

    • just saying 5.3

      Another weird thing LPrent, the teaser in the comment lost it’s italics during moderation. I swear they were there when the finished comment appeared after I pressed “post”. Otherwise I would have edited because it annoys me when it is unclear who is saying what.

  6. Elizabeth Bourchier Real Labour 6

    The participation of Union Members in the process to select the Labour Leader will be a good thing.

    When Unionists attend the dozen leadership debates around the country their bond with Labour will be strengthened.

    • chris73 6.1

      What percentage of New Zealand workers are members of unions?

      • One Tāne Huna 6.1.1

        What percentage of Standard readers can be bothered to Google that for you?

      • CV - Real Labour 6.1.2

        dunno but they’re important to the Labour Party past and present.

        • chris73 6.1.2.1

          Past of course but present I’m not so sure because if the percentage of workers in NZ in a union is low (as I suspect but don’t know) then maybe giving the unions more representation is not a good way to go…

          • One Tāne Huna 6.1.2.1.1

            “Maybe” no-one will pay attention to the weasel words of a lazy wingnut. That seems more likely.

          • bad12 6.1.2.1.2

            Too lazy or brain dead to do the research yourself to find out the answer to your question, instead you expect others to do it for you, a sense of entitlement perhaps…

            • One Tāne Huna 6.1.2.1.2.1

              A wingnut doing his own reality-check? Pull the other one.

            • chris73 6.1.2.1.2.2

              Funny a leftie thinks like that because I’m thinking that someone on here will know the answer therefore it’d be quicker to post the question here

              A more judicious use of my time if you like

      • felixviper 6.1.3

        chris, how many New Zealanders are large business owners and should National ignore their views if the number is not huge?

        • chris73 6.1.3.1

          National should probably take more on board the views of small to medium business owners first (but I wouldn’t hold my breath) but it also depends on how much tax revenue each sector generates I guess

          • felixviper 6.1.3.1.1

            What about farmers? There are bugger all farmers in NZ and they pay bugger all tax.

            Should National pay any attention to their views?

            • chris73 6.1.3.1.1.1

              I think most farmers are lazy, entitled, inherited spongers…but thats just my opinion

              • One Tāne Huna

                The embodiment of laziness. Do you have any opinions based on reality?

              • felixviper

                That wasn’t the question though chris. Should National listen to farmers or not?

                • chris73

                  Being the largest export earner then yes. Sure everybody should be listened to but to pay for things you do need money but listening doesn’t have to mean bending over backwards for someone

                  • CV - Real Labour

                    Workers are the largest export earner chris73, workers. And I don’t see this Government paying them much attention at all.

                  • vto

                    They only listen to the people who vote for them, hence the poor people of east Christchurch being left to live in shit while the farmers 40km away get immediate attention to everything and $400million for their privately owned businesses.

                    The world in NZ is unbalanced and slowly toppling. It is the leaning tower of milk biscuits.

          • CV - Real Labour 6.1.3.1.2

            chris73: a democracy is a system of government supposed to give voice to individuals, not to the tax revenue that they generate.

            • felixviper 6.1.3.1.2.1

              Yeah but when did the National Party become a democracy?

            • chris73 6.1.3.1.2.2

              Democracy is for ancient greeks but I guess it’ll have to do until something better comes along

              • CV - Real Labour

                Slaves had no effective say in the running of Ancient Greek democracy. So maybe it’s more relevant today than you might think?

                • One Tāne Huna

                  “Think”? lol

                • chris73

                  Well democracy beats other tried and tested methods I guess, mind you its not like we have a decent form of democracy here…national, national, labour, labour, labour, national, labour, national, national, national, labour, labour etc etc

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    we get what people vote for, how do you reckon we should do it?

                    • chris73

                      Good question, as stated above the Greeks had democracy but slavery, women were excluded, peasents excluded etc etc

                      Just doesn’t seem right having two party states

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      WTF are talking about?

                      There are more than two parties.
                      We haven’t had a one party government for bloody ages.

                      And this ‘seems right’ business. It’s what people vote for, getting what they vote for seems right to me.

                    • CV - Real Labour

                      Just doesn’t seem right having two party states

                      I hope you put that concern to the MMP commission.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    That’s the result of representative democracy. If we had participatory democracy you wouldn’t get that and we’d probably get more stable government as well.

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    “Just doesn’t seem right having two party states”

                    Dead right, Chris! I’m hoping that we can move to a system where other parties get a fair go and can even be included in governing coalitions. Something that would stop the right gerrymandering election results and ‘winning’ while losing the popular vote. It could be based on proprtional representation. I’ve even thought of a name for it: Mixed Member Proportional. MMP, for short. Do you think it’ll catch on?

                    • chris73

                      Oh please, the Greens can’t go anywhere but Labour so Labour can dump on them whenever they like.

                      I mean do you see a scenario where the Greens would refuse to go into coalition with Labour especially if it went National could sneak back in?

                      National will hoover whatever support it can to get back in (i hope it doesn’t come down to winstonFirst)

                      Whatever way it falls your choice is Labour or National with some hangers on

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      nah.

                      That’s not ‘your choice’, that’s the likely outcome of elections given what everybody tends to choose.

                    • McFlock

                      and when the largest party only has half or two thirds of the required support to form a government, the other parties in government become less “hangers on” and more “coalition partners”.

          • Draco T Bastard 6.1.3.1.3

            Why should someone have less say in their governance just because they pay less nominal (after all, the percentage should be the same) tax?

      • Saccharomyces 6.1.4

        379,649 – 17.4% of the total employed force (March 2010 Household Labour Force Survey).

        http://www.dol.govt.nz/er/starting/unions/union-membership-2010.pdf

  7. chris73 7

    For all the David Shearer fans (and I know there are many)

    When it comes to David Shearer I’m reminded of professional wrestling (seriously) in that the wrestlers portray persona’s IE baby-face, heel, naive, sneaky etc etc

    But the best ones are those that are exaggerations of what they’re like in real life

    The best examples of this would be The Rock and Stone Cold who both went through various persona’s before they found the fit and became superstars

    So the “tough guy” act isn’t working then maybe he needs to exaggerate his own qualities like nice guy, competent manager etc etc

    • rosy 7.1

      Strange analogy, but I think I see what you’re saying.

      The problem with that scenario is that how Labour marketed him in the first place – competent manager, facilitator, hero. They couldn’t sell it whereas they think the tough guy approach is more appealing, for some reason.

      • chris73 7.1.1

        It is strange but when you consider wrestlers and politicians both try to “sell” an image…the other lesson wrestling could teach Shearer is give the people what they want (not what the advisers want) in this instance CM Punk is a good example

        He was packaged by the bookers as a straight-edge good guy but the public didn’t buy it and he soon morphed into a heel (and a damn good one) so I guess the question is what do the Labour members want?

    • QoT 7.2

      The best examples of this would be The Rock and Stone Cold who both went through various persona’s before they found the fit and became superstars

      And it doesn’t hurt that each of them were very much involved in the creation of their successful personas.

      On the other hand Million Dollar Man Ted Dibiase was just given one to play with out-of-the-box and he was highly successful. I’m sure there’s some kind of analogy to be made there.

  8. PlanetOrphan 8

    Hey LPRent,
    I Can’t see the Standard from my home line ? (122.61.40.24 )

  9. King Kong 9

    So being brown and beating a criminal automatically makes you competent in a portfolio?

    [lprent: If you want to start a trash talk thread then do it in OpenMike. Don’t make me clean up behind you. ]

    • The Al1en 9.1

      “King Kong 1.1
      31 January 2013 at 9:27 am
      So being brown and beating a criminal automatically makes you competent in a portfolio?”

      Re-posted for posterity and defamation cases

      Name names or gtfo with making shit up.
      I dare you. ;)

      • The Al1en 9.1.1

        Come on Kong, do be specific.
        If you’re going to post about a ‘brown assaulting a criminal’, name them or look for an easier topic :lol:

        • One Tāne Huna 9.1.1.1

          Um, I think “beating” in this case is a reference to an electoral fight, not a physical one…

          I see KK confirms this…

      • King Kong 9.1.2

        I think you chaps have the wrong end of the stick. I refer to him defeating Phillip Field (who is a criminal) in the race for the seat.

        Look at you racists jumping to the conclusion I was talking about physical violence just because he is brown.

        • The Al1en 9.1.2.2

          King Kong 1.1.1.2
          31 January 2013 at 9:45 am

          “Look at you racists”

          Like I said, name names or gtfo with making shit up.
          I dare you. ;)

          • King Kong 9.1.2.2.1

            You’re strange.

            Let me guess under 5’7″ and a sufferer of short man syndrome.

            • The Al1en 9.1.2.2.1.1

              Your post has publicly accused either me or the poster that is Mickeysavage of being a racist.

              Retract and apologise I reckon, at the very least.
              Or back up your claim with fact.
              Simple as that.

              • King Kong

                I saw a KKK costume, a wooden cross and a can of petrol in the back of your car.

                Now prove I didn’t.

              • King Kong

                On top of that, being of Maori persuasion, I fing your patronising and aggresive tone to be racist.

                • The Al1en

                  “I fing your patronising and aggresive tone to be racist.”

                  Surely that would only make me patronising with an aggressive tone, not a racist?

                  But when one states

                  King Kong 1.1.1.2 31 January 2013 at 9:45 am

                  “Look at you racists”

                  That’s a definitive statement.
                  Stand by your claim and back it, or apologise.

                  • King Kong

                    You’re boring me now

                  • Rogue Trooper

                    ooh ooh,
                    “I have gazed on the face of Agamemnon”, and he was found wanting (though this, too, was never proved; Ares seemed incapable of original thought, wants what Aphrodite wants; may as well worship the sun, we’ll rest safely in Electra Dreams)

                    -Somewhere near Orion there’s a Nestor ian Chryses.e.e (from an Odyssey beyond The Street Cafe, cumming as you are, soaked in Bleach any mule know dat you got a tight connection to my heart) :) Love ya work! you thin white duke.Shock me to the core.

                • The Al1en

                  So your boredom negates your responsibility under the law? I think not.

                  I can’t possibly allow to persist a situation where my reputation is so sullied by false accusations of racism.
                  I ask you for a final time to atone for your error.

                  • James

                    “I ask you for a final time to atone for your error.”

                    Or what ??

                  • The Al1en

                    “Or what ??”

                    The real question is by who?

                  • The Al1en

                    I think it’s pretty obvious to old hand forum users, that some posters, like kong, piss contest themselves into a corner and no matter how factually incorrect or clearly in the wrong, leave themselves no way back without destroying their web id in the process.
                    But not me.

                    Reading his contributions, I don’t think the commentator is at all at ‘one with him/herself’ to begin with, but still, direct, definitive statements like those expressed above reach out far and wide across the web, especially on such a notable site such as this, and if left unchallenged, so would my lack of a response – A bit like the PM when he sat by and let a c list breakfast tv host make racist comments about then Governor general and all other similar coloured skinned New Zealanders. Guilt by doing fuck all.
                    I accept I won’t get the apology I deserve, but again, that neither diminishes the falsehood or the potential negative impact it could have my charitable and business projects.
                    If he were a rich prick, my legal pit bull would be all over it already, but I suspect KK isn’t, so what’s the point? In this instance I’m content to let the regular contributors of the standard decide if I’m a racist or kk loses what little credibility he/she had.

                    If it’s all about picking the right battles to fight, I’ll keep my powder dry for just now.

                  • King Kong

                    You are awsome.

                    I would love to take your legal Pitbull for a walk someday.

                    • The Al1en

                      “You are awsome.”

                      At last something by you I agree with, even if you did spell it incorrectly.

                      “I would love to take your legal Pitbull for a walk someday.”

                      Kong, king of chimps, you just let me know when you have a brighter future worth risking.

            • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 9.1.2.2.1.2

              KK at 10.10am
              Now now King Kong that’s tallism and you are rather freakily tall aren’t you. Pity your brain doesn’t match your body size.

    • David H 9.2

      WTF are you congenitally defective????

      Where’s the links to your defamation??

    • Gee King Kong you are slipping. You had the chance for a bit of misogyny as well as racism and you missed it. Not feeling well?

  10. My message to caucus is this ‘Give Cunliffe back his portfolios,give Cunliffe back his mana,
    give back HIS rightful place as leader,that he won in the prior election process, in not doing
    so demonstrates the lack of being an inclusive thinking caucus and one only for the ‘selected
    few’, i, as a potential voter demand it.

    • CV - Real Labour 10.1

      give Cunliffe back his mana

      Uh, caucus and the Labour Leadership has no ability to give back what they cannot take away ;)

      • Yes, you are right CV, i read the transcript and just felt annoyed at the lack of
        recognition for the grass roots,members etc, by the current caucus, i vented.
        My frustration is that we have a viable,astute,potential leader and he has been
        tossed aside in order to save an incapable individual.

  11. Afewknowthetruth 11

    Since jobs and manufacturing are the problem we should be celebrating their demise.

    Get over it!

    Oh, I forgot, Ben want us all to be slaves of the industrial economy and the money-lenders, and spend our time working in jobs that provide no satisfaction and wreck the ling term future for everyone.

    [lprent: Since you have made a vague attempt to pin your hobby horse to the post I will just move this thread to OpenMike.

    However next time I see you do it this type of diversion again, I’ll not only push the whole thread into OpenMike and then ban you for quite a few months to prevent me from having to waste my time again.

    This is what you got banned for the last time I had to do it. If you want to discuss something this divergent to the intent of the post – start it in OpenMike. Don’t be a lazy jerk and expect me to keep cleaning up behind you. ]

    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 11.1

      I was coming to the view that you couldn’t get any crazier. Well done!

      • CV - Real Labour 11.1.1

        You’ve got to have goals in life mate :)

      • bad12 11.1.2

        Actually it’s quite a rational view of the New Zealand economy although the manner ‘AFew’ frames the comment does not quite address it that way,

        There is in fact no way on this planet without severe Government intervention that ‘the market’ can or ever has provided enough employment in the New Zealand for all those wanting such employment,

        Only a highly protected economy can provide that, or, an economy where the tax base is used to produce employment for all…

        • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 11.1.2.1

          You misunderstand Afewknowthetruth, bad 12.

          Those of is who do not die of starvation, will be left to eat the beans and rice they have hoarded before the end comes and then fight it out with each other over what is left.

          Afewknowthetruth is really looking forward to it.

          • bad12 11.1.2.1.1

            Misunderstand Him, no not at all, He is speaking from a position of CO2 release into the atmosphere and i fully understand the theory of the worse case scenario just as i also fully understand that politics and politicians are mostly reactionary in that until the first wave crashes through the international departure lounge of Wellington airport whereupon they will all start being ‘true believers’ CO2 release into the atmosphere will be at best given lip service…

      • Afewknowthetruth 11.1.3

        Insanity is attempting to perpetuate a system that is rapidly destroying the Earth, and has no future because the energy necessary to run the in the future does not exist.

        Of course intelligent discussion of issues is beyond your brain capacity so you persist in posting juvenile commentary.

        The simple fact is, unless the global industrial system collapses very soon nobody will be able to survive on this planet beyond 2040. Even the IMF has said so.

        Of course a brain-dead individual like you obviously cannot appreciate the ramifications of a 4oC or 6oC rise in average temperature in a matter of decades.

        • Lanthanide 11.1.3.1

          “Even the IMF has said so.”

          Citation please.

          “Of course a brain-dead individual like you obviously cannot appreciate the ramifications of a 4oC or 6oC rise in average temperature in a matter of decades.”

          Average temperature of NZ goes from 15C to 19C. Oh noes, we’re all going to die! Northern parts of Australia have this sort of average temperature and people manage to live there just fine. Even aborigines did, and they did it without fossil fuels.

          • Afewknowthetruth 11.1.3.1.1

            I know you have a very small brain and cannot process information well but instead of thinking about NZ going from 15oC to 19oC you might like to consider the effect of arctic regions going from minus 2oc to plus 2oC.

            In practice the Arctic regions are super-sensitive to small changes in temperature and tend to amplify them (albedo effect amongst many others) so the temperature of the artic regions is likely to rise by 10 or 20oC if the Earth’s average temperature rises by 4oC. Expect massive sea level rise (several metres) and out-of-control positive feedback that take the temperature up another 10oC, i.e. +16oC above the present average temperature. That is exactly what the latest research indicates.

            As I have noted previously, most people are uninformed, stupid and stubborn.

            As for the IMF citation, how about you doing a quick search.. You obviously need practice in doing research, since you do so little and do not even know very rudimentary stuff.

            By the way, Australia has recently announced a new record average temperature of 40.3oC. That has been enough to devastate large swathes of the country. Meanwhile, the higher ocean temperatures are resulting in ever increasing damage due to flooding.

            Those in favour of perpetuating present economic arrangements are in favour of ever greater devastation.

            • Lanthanide 11.1.3.1.1.1

              “As for the IMF citation, how about you doing a quick search.. You obviously need practice in doing research, since you do so little and do not even know very rudimentary stuff.”

              You’re the one that made the claim. Don’t make me do work for you.

              “In practice the Arctic regions are super-sensitive to small changes in temperature and tend to amplify them (albedo effect amongst many others) so the temperature of the artic regions is likely to rise by 10 or 20oC if the earth’s average temperature rises by 4oC.”

              Citation please, because that sounds very extreme.

              Anyway, even if the arctic / antarctic did go from -2C to 2C, it will still take a very long time for the ice sheets to melt. Even if they did and the water level rose by 60m, guess what, most of NZ is much higher than 60m above sea level! You’re acting like everyone is going to die, when patently they aren’t. Would life be difficult? Yes. Would life be impossible? Far from it.

              “By the way, Australia has recently announced a new record average temperature of 40.3oC. That has been enough to devastate large swathes of the country.”

              I’m not sure what “devastate large swathes of the country” is supposed to mean. Lets put it another way: how many people died because of this “average temperature of 40.3C”, I’m assuming you mean that for 1 day the average across the whole country reached that.

              “Those in favour of perpetuating present economic arrangements are in favour of ever greater devastation.”

              Yes, I agree. But that doesn’t mean everyone is going to be dead by 2050 as you seem to enjoy saying.

              • One Tāne Huna

                I don’t know about 20˚ (although there are certainly recorded Arctic temperature anomalies of that magnitude) being the average, but Arrhenius predicted polar amplification in 1896, so it certainly isn’t of out the ball-park.

              • geoff

                Citation please? A couple of comments up you yourself use your own anecdotal story as justification. Double standard much?

              • Afewknowthetruth

                Just go to ‘Nature Bats Last’ and read the article Climate Change update. It’s all there.

                Go on. I dare you, become informed instead of spouting a lot of emotional drivel based on misinformation or no information.

                • Lanthanide

                  Started skimming it and came to this little doozy:

                  “In other words, Obama and others in his administration knew near-term extinction of humans was already guaranteed.”

                  That’s in response to an increase of 6C. There’s no explanation as to how this would cause “near-term extinction”, it’s just blithely asserted that it will do so.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    I wish MacPherson would do an article where he explains the mechanisms that would cause extinction. Not seen one so far.

            • Enough is Enough 11.1.3.1.1.2

              I did a thorough search for to something about IMF. Couldn’t find it.

              So how about you back up your argument with a source?

              • Afewknowthetruth

                Go to Nature Bats Last and read Climate Change Summary and Update.

                There are dozens of links and sources on NBL, all verifying what I have been saying for the past 12 years…. only it’s all happening a lot faster than I imagined possible a decade ago, when we were looking at severe ‘problems’ around 2100. Now we are staring down the barrel of a ‘gun’ pointed at us 2020. Indeed, there are a number of people extremely concerned that the central states of the US may become largely uninhabitable within 5 years.

                That’s the trouble with taking the planet we live on into unknown territory for the sake of consumer crap and unnecessary travel.

                Bill has done some excellent items on The Standard.

                Seems they were soon forgotten. -like within two weeks.

                • Lanthanide

                  By following a link from that site, the closest I could find was this:
                  “This came just after the World Bank said that 4 °Cs of warming will end the world as we know it. ”

                  If you then follow that link, they don’t say “end the world as we know it”, instead they talk about heat waves and the problems of rising sea levels. But they don’t say “nobody will be able to survive on the planet beyond 2040″.

                  If you have the actual quotation of the IMF saying that, please provide it, otherwise we will assume this is your usual hyberbole.

          • Andre 11.1.3.1.2

            Humans .humans humans……http://t.co/zrE1Ugec

      • Polish Pride 11.1.4

        Hmmmm and I here I thought ‘Crazy’ was man developing a system that he then has to turn around and work for in order to survive….
        Even more crazy is not recognising this and changing the system so that instead works for him. But then if we did that how would you know if you were doing ok if you couldn’t look elsewhere in the world and see people suffering poverty, war or working harder than you have to for less money.. right!?!

        • Lanthanide 11.1.4.1

          You don’t have to take part in the global economy. You can go buy some land and live self-sufficiently if you want. A lot of people do this. No one is forcing you to take part in the global economy.

          It’s just that actually, being able to go to the store and buy some food is a lot more convenient than spending 3 months growing it yourself.

          • Afewknowthetruth 11.1.4.1.1

            ‘you can go and buy some land’

            The great irony is that you have to be part of the system to escape from it. Those who loot and pollute the most end up with the most digits and can escape to almost whenever they want to.

            Interestingly, now that most of the world is turning to shit environmentally, economically and politically, the rich dudes and dudettes decide to come to NZ to escape the worst effects of it all.

            I wonder how many of the ‘peasants’ in Beijing who cannot even breathe the air dream of a life in the country with a piece of land.

            • Lanthanide 11.1.4.1.1.1

              “The great irony is that you have to be part of the system to escape from it.”

              It’s not really ironic, it’s an obvious reality. We aren’t living in the 1600’s when you could sail a ship to America and find huge areas of fertile land that were free for the taking. All of the good land is already taken, if you want to possess it for yourself then you need to make some sort of trade to get there. Or you can try and take it by brute force if you think that will get you somewhere.

              • Polish Pride

                Lanth just admit that was a dumbarse comment (or not) and move on :).
                It is no different than right wing idiots saying if you have a problem with a petroleum based economy just stop using petrol….. not very helpful

                • Lanthanide

                  It’s not a dumbarse comment.

                  It’s really true: if you don’t want to be part of the global economy, you don’t have to be. Having the means not to be part of the global economy is another question.

                  • Polish Pride

                    Sorry Lanth I was just kidding.. not good at conveying attempts at humour on here.

                  • CV - Real Labour

                    It’s really true: if you don’t want to be part of the global economy, you don’t have to be. Having the means not to be part of the global economy is another question.

                    Lanth, is your last name “Yossarian” per chance?

                  • Colonial Weka

                    “It’s really true: if you don’t want to be part of the global economy, you don’t have to be. Having the means not to be part of the global economy is another question.”

                    Leaving aside that those two statements don’t make sense together, the first statement is not really true. It is VERY hard to be self sufficient to the extent that on can opt out of the global economy entirely, or even largely. That’s why hardly any one is doing it in industrialised nations. If you think it is possible, please show some examples.

                    • McFlock

                      Hard, yes.
                      Impossible: probably not. People were doing it in NZ right up until the 19th century.

                      I’m just not sure that there’s anyone who is nutty enough to try, although a few might come close, off-grid lifestylers getting all their produce from local farmers’ markets etc if they can’t grow or make it themselves.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      No they weren’t McFlock. 19thC NZ was PRE-global economy. They didn’t have to take themselves out. It’s the taking out that’s the hard part, not living without it.

                      For instance, where would you get tools for growing food, if you didn’t buy them from places that were dependent on the global economy. I can think of a few people that make their own tools, but they still source their metals from the global economy. And none of them live local to me. So I’d need a way of travelling to them. A horse? Sure, but for any distance I’d also need a wagon or cart, to carry food and goods for trade. How is the wagon made? Tools? Not metal surely. Any idea how hard it is to make wagon wheels? I’m sure there are still people in NZ that can do this, but I bet they’re well hooked into the global economy.

                      See how this goes? It’s the same as with looking at transitioning off oil. You have to look at systems and networks and the interdependency of things.

                      Another example: where would you get seeds for growing food? Think about that.

                      Growing all your own food is very hard to do outside of a community that is also doing that (not to mention other human needs). It’s even hard to do within a society where that is the norm (you’ll have heard of crop failures). Almost no-one in NZ in the 1800s was living self-sufficiently. They were all living in communities that were based on interdependence (Maori and Tauiwi). Until we have that kind of interdependence on each other again we cannot live without the global economy. It will eventually come but the only question now is will we be pushed or will we jump or will we lie down and die after the party is over.

                    • Lanthanide

                      CW you’re taking a rather different view of “global economy” than I was.

                      For you, it basically means “if you buy something from a shop that is otherwise definitely local, you’re participating in the global economy” which is strictly true.

                      My perspective on this was rather more “if you’ve only got very limited contacts with the economy and are buying things that *could* have been provided locally (even if they actually weren’t) then that still counts”.

                      As for your specific talk about tools and metal work: just look at the amish communities in the US.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Sorry Lanth, but that seems to be a copout. My local supermarket is locally owned, can I buy from them and still not be part of the global economy? All their food that I buy *could* be grown locally.

                      The Amish communities are communities, see my points below. Also, they’re not in NZ, so the point is moot.

                      I’d still like to see you provide some specific examples, NZ ones, of people that are successfully living without “taking part in the global economy”.

                      I know lots of people that are attempting this, or working towards this, but it irks to see you suggesting that it’s easy or straightforward, or can be achieved to a large degree, when their hard work demonstrates otherwise.

                    • Lanthanide

                      No CW, it’s not a copout, because I am specifically talking about people who make an active effort to remove themselves from the global economy, I’m not talking about someone that “buys food from the local grocery so therefore aren’t involved in the global economy”.

                      “The Amish communities are communities, see my points below. Also, they’re not in NZ, so the point is moot.”

                      I only said it was possible to live without being part of the global economy. I never said anything about doing it by yourself or not being part of a community. Likewise I never said anything about doing it in NZ, so I’m not sure why you’re demanding that.

                      “I know lots of people that are attempting this, or working towards this, but it irks to see you suggesting that it’s easy or straightforward, or can be achieved to a large degree, when their hard work demonstrates otherwise.”

                      Well I’m not sure why it’s really a big deal anyway. I mean the whole reason it’s hard to extract yourself from the global economy is because actually the global economy is very efficient at doing lots of very important things. It also has a huge amount of waste, inefficiencies and injustices as part of it, but overall the benefit seems to outweigh the cost.

                  • mike

                    Isn’t it rather obvious that when PP said ‘man’ was referring to the human race in general? Lanth your response “You don’t have to take part in the global economy.” which you’ve later qualified with “Having the means not to be part of the global economy is another question.” seems to be pedantic and pointless.

                    So you’re saying that if ‘you’ are one of the small fraction of the population that has the means to escape form the global economy, then ‘you’ can escape from the global economy? Thanks for that. But PP wasn’t claiming it to be a logical impossibility, he was talking generally. For the vast majority who are not in that small fraction, choosing to not take part in the global economy in the face of the myriad of societal pressures against you is a hard road that only an even more tiny fraction is cut out for.

          • Polish Pride 11.1.4.1.2

            Love comments like this – not very well thought through though…… and where does one get the money outside of the ‘global economy’ to ‘buy’ this land to live sustainably…!?!

            Unfortunately for me I care a great deal about my fellow man. I don’t want my children to grow up in this world that is designed to benefit a few, when another world that would benefit all is possible.

            The problem is, with the way the system is, most people don’t have the time to stop working, take six months out of their lives and figure out why things aren’t working, what the actual problem is and what needs to happen to fix things. I am simply lucky enough to have been able to do this.
            If you new how to solve poverty and war for good would you just sit back and say nothing.

            If the system can’t provide simple needs for everyone when the resources exist to do so. Why are you so attached to it. I have read your comments on here and you don’t fall into the category of ‘I’m doing ok so the system works’.

            You and others may think I am a loon but throughout history it has only been those that are crazy enough to think that they can change the world that have. As luck would have it I am just that crazy ;)

            So I will continue pointing out the failings of the system that are only getting worse and get those who are open minded enough to think about better ways. Ways that can provide for everyone and actually improve living standards at the same time.

            But then perhaps you actually believe that the Left have the answers despite they haven’t fixed the problems previously. If you believe that the please share how. Because if they can I can join the party sit back and relax and wait for the change that will fix the worlds (or even just the country if thats easier) problems to come.

          • mike 11.1.4.1.3

            “You can go buy some land…”

            With what shall I buy it, dear Lizza dear Lizza,
            With what shall I buy it, dear Lizza with what?

            • King Kong 11.1.4.1.3.1

              with a loan , dear henry, dear henry, dear henry
              with a loan, dear henry, dear henry, a loan

              • CV - Real Labour

                So kowtow to the banksters and sign a death contract to them? Sorta defeats the purpose yeah?

                • King Kong

                  I, like many in this country, have a mortgage and as far as I am aware the banks have never killed anyone for not keeping up the payments.

                  Calling it a death contract might be overstating things.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    I’m sure that the stress of the bank loan has killed people though.

                    • King Kong

                      I am sure the stress of marriage has killed people too but I don’t see many people wanting to ban that, in fact they want to make gay people suffer as well.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      No, marriage hasn’t killed people – the financial stress caused by the banking system has caused marriages to break up though.

                    • King Kong

                      So rich people don’t divorce?

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I’m sure that they do – just more likely to be for other reasons than financial stress.

              • mike

                And how will I pay that loan back, dear dufus, how?

            • Lanthanide 11.1.4.1.3.2

              Lets see, your options for acquiring good fertile land that ownership has already been claimed by some other party.

              1. Beg for it. Hey, maybe they’ll just give it to you.
              2. Trade something for it. Perhaps some potatoes or intricately carved necklaces. More likely they’d want to trade the land for money, though.
              3. Take it by force.

              Out of those, the one most likely to work is #2.

              • Polish Pride

                I’m a pretty big fella, 3 might work too, not really in my charachter though.
                I have land. Had to get it the old fashioned way though.
                …..Only after begging and potatoes failed. Never thought about necklaces though. Might save that one for next time. :)

          • CV - Real Labour 11.1.4.1.4

            You don’t have to take part in the global economy.

            Did you not notice? That’s why they destroyed our manufacturing self sufficiency and greatly increased our reliance on international providers of basic utilities like banking systems and phones.

            So yes, you can avoid taking part in the global economy, if you want to live back in the 1800’s,

            • Lanthanide 11.1.4.1.4.1

              I’m talking about living self-sufficiently on a farm.

              • CV - Real Labour

                without diesel, fertiliser, tractor parts, water pumps or seed?

                • Lanthanide

                  People do it. Most of the things you listed haven’t been around more than 500 years and yet people managed without them.

                  I never said it was easy.

                  In fact that was my whole point – going down to the shop and buying your food is much easier than growing it for 3 months.

                  • CV - Real Labour

                    Look no one is arguing that modern industrialised civilisation doesn’t have seriously good perks. I don’t think anyone here wants to go back to hand wringing their clothes for example.

                    What will be required are systems and technology which make life during the decline just as good as modern day life, albeit it will probably be in different dimensions.

              • McFlock

                Aternatively, I wonder how long one could simply “go bush” for?
                Not me, I like mp3s and electric blankets, but a huntin’ shootin’ fishin’ type could possibly do quite well in the ranges, and nobody need ever know.

                • Lanthanide

                  I’ve read of a few hermit types in NZ that only have outside contact once a year or less.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    What makes you think they’re not dependent on the global economy?

                    • Lanthanide

                      I’m assuming that if you only visit with civilization once or twice a year, you could very well go on without visiting it ever.

                      But you’re right, they could be buying huge stockpiles of ammo or tools etc on those visits.

                • Colonial Weka

                  “but a huntin’ shootin’ fishin’ type could possibly do quite well in the ranges, and nobody need ever know.”

                  Until they run out of bullets. And yes, it is possible to mine minerals and make the moulds for the bullets and the bullets themselves*, but now we are talking about a very small number of people with that skill set and I doubt that anyone in NZ is doing it.

                  *no idea about gunpowder though.

                  • Lanthanide

                    Why do you need bullets to hunt? Humanity has lived off the land without bullets for millennia. The maori even did it right in this country.

                    Now obviously there’s much less wildlife around these days than there was back then, so it would probably make it more difficult and would support many fewer people for any particular area of land. On the other hand there are many more introduced species around, if you don’t mind eating wild pigs, rats and possums etc.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Lanth, honestly, I don’t mean to be rude, but I think you have no idea what you are talking about. Humanity has lived off the land for millennia without bullets, but they weren’t 21stC Kiwis who’ve been raised in houses and with supermarkets and cars. And they didn’t do it as individuals, they did it in communities and with technologies and skills that were inbuilt and didn’t have to be learnt whilst one was starving or shivering. If you read anthropological and first hand accounts from hunter gatherer tribes, you will understand that there is a collective knowledge and wisdom that enables survival and thriving that cannot simply be learnt by one individual who wants to go bush for the rest of their lives. In fact to suggest that that is even possible, is the height of civilised ignorance and arrogance. Hunter gatherer peoples have highly sophisticated technologies that are apparently invisible to everyone else in this conversation. We’ve lost much of that, and it will take much to get it back.

                      There is a reason why people, including Maori, use guns now – they’re so much easier in terms of the ratio of energy expended to energy harvested. And there isn’t that much land outside of National Parks that could support a person for the rest of their life hunting with a bow, spear or snares that they make and maintain themselves. I’m not saying it couldn’t be done, I’m saying it is so difficult under today’s conditions, that your statement that anyone who wants to live outside the global economy can is a nonsense.

                    • bad12

                      Lolz all the wild-life one will ever need is just over that fence there grazing in the paddock, don’t let the farmer see you tho…

                    • Colonial Weka

                      lol, they don’t like rustlers round these parts.

                      I suppose someone young and fit could survive indefinitely in NZ, on foot, by stealing lifestock. Doubt you could do it with kids in tow, or without that nice sharp knife that was imported from overseas ;-)

                      Not to mention the problems with scurvy, or would they be cabbage rustling too?

                    • bad12

                      Now cabbages rustling sounds good, easy to run down a young cabbage for the pot, i hear they don’t move to fast,

                      Reminds me of my first real road trip, 16 years old and 3 of us in a mark2 Zephyr up North some place and look at that Giant field of corn, lets grab a sack,

                      Lolz, turned out to be Maize, think the same thing probably happened to Ruth Richardson whereupon She came to the belief that there were no free lunches,

                      i wont go into the gory details of a wild turkey we came across at another venue, well it was outside of the fence, man that was one tough bird to chew…

                  • CV - Real Labour

                    CW, making bullets is easy. The basic design of the .22 cartridge is 150 years old. Think about the tech they had available in the 1860’s. Moulds, metal press tools, etc. some high precision for the day, but nothing fancy.

                    A garage workshop well set up could supply ammunition for dozens of hunter-gatherers.

                    In NZ there are also hundreds and hundreds of firearms enthusiasts who reload their own ammunition. Yes they buy in parts and materials, but its not a huge leap to having those items manufactured in NZ as well as gun powder.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Yes, of course. But you are talking about a community or society living without the global economy. I thought Lanth was saying that anyone who wanted to could live without it, and I’m just pointing to multiple examples that prove that is not true. You need a shift of mass numbers of people to make it possible.

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      use to have a gun room in one of my first flats; approx a dozen firearms and press to make own shells and cartridges, I sh*t u not.

                    • CV - Real Labour

                      Understood. I think Lanth is sorta forgetting that for many tens of thousands of years, man’s forefathers (hmmmm can’t figure out the gender neutral version) chose to live in co-operative groups, albeit relatively small. Tribes, hunter-gatherer parties, what have you.

                      And we know that for around 4000-5000 years, humans have congregated in large cities, creating vast empires.

                      Ancient people long figured out that you could sleep more safely together around a camp fire and when you had people taking turns on watch.

                      Basically, the crazy US “lone-wolf” style survivalist is fucked in the coming future; those who are a trusted part of strong cohesive communities are going to do the best.

                      Rogue: good on ya mate. Trust you had a very secure gun safe, or was it before those days ;)

                    • Rogue Trooper

                      b4

                    • Lanthanide

                      Sorry CW, but I don’t know why you got hung-up on me insisting that an individual could live out of the global economy.

                      I said it was possible to do so. Full stop. I didn’t say “it is possible for a single individual to live by themselves fully self-sufficiently”.

                      Is it possible for an individual to live by themselves without the global economy? Yes. Is it much easier if they’re part of a community? Yes. Hell, most people participating in the global economy are doing it as part of a community, so I don’t see why that suddenly wouldn’t apply if you chose to live outside of it.

              • geoff

                So taking your (presumably) libertarian ideals to an extreme, if someone managed to buy all the land in the world and then forced everyone off the land to live floating on the sea, you’d be ok with that because that’s just private property rights?

        • Draco T Bastard 11.1.4.2

          Hmmmm and I here I thought ‘Crazy’ was man developing a system that he then has to turn around and work for in order to survive….

          Actually, it’s that we’ve developed a system which has the majority working to benefit the few in order to live in poverty. It is this system that is also causing the change within the environment that will render the middle latitudes uninhabitable.

    • Daveo 11.2

      “Since jobs and manufacturing are the problem we should be celebrating their demise.”

      You go tell that to the people living in communities devastated by factory closures and job losses.

      • bad12 11.2.1

        Indeed, such job losses devastate ‘local communities’ i have been watching this happen for 30 years as we as a country embraced the Neo- liberal economic paradigm,

        Such a paradigm that has now morphed into the treatment of those who are or become unemployed as near-criminals is an abhorence where a particular cohort of workers have for decades given their labour to an industry for scant reward only then to have the rug ripped from beneath their feet to be faced with the stark future of life on the ‘dole’,

        Within the wave of closures of business that accompanied the Western financial meltdown within the country’s that have placed the greatest value upon this Neo-Liberal economic paradigm is also the re-alignment of industrial production to the country’s that have cleverly side-stepped the worst excesses of Neo-Liberalism, those who in effect are ‘the winners’ of the contest of free trade of a global nature,

        The ‘prize’ for those who have won in such a ‘competition’ has been the continuation of the stripping of production from the Western Neo-Liberal economic bloc which will now occur within the ‘winning’ country’s…

        • Andre 11.2.1.1

          Farmworker on talk radio.. 12 days on 2 days off 10/11 hours a day He actually gets $5.60 an hour in his pocket……….

          • bad12 11.2.1.1.1

            Aha, which is in fact illegal, but, try and get the Labour department to prosecute the farmer and they all will suddenly take on ‘a blank’ look…

            • Andre 11.2.1.1.1.1

              Slave labour ..These guys and girls are the engine of our economy and there treated as indentured slaves. Makes me cry……

              • bad12

                Crying tho is not a reasoned solution, efforts should be made to convince both the Labour and Green Party’s that the Labour Department should be legislated to enforce such laws and be provided with the resources necessary to investigate and prosecute any and all employers who breach the LAW on the payment of the minimum wage,

                Only when Government upholds the laws as set out by the Parliament will such situations as you highlighted cease to exist it is pathetic Neo-liberal Bullshit to believe that an emplyee trapped in such a situation can prosecute His or Her own case without suffering further sanctions from the employer at some point in the future…

                • bad12

                  As an after thought i am going to assume that such ‘wages’ are brought about by a contractual arrangement where the Farmer as the employer has given unto Himself the luxury of believing that the employee is a ‘contractor’ as opposed to being a waged worker,

                  Solution, Labour/Green Government legislate minimum standards for such ‘contractors’ across all industries where it has been identified as the prevailing practice for circumventing the labour laws prevailing to wage workers and the minimum wage and any other conditions of work that a wage worker would normally expect in a bargaining between a reasonable employer and reasonable employee…

              • @ Andre, My brother was a union man and he helped some farm workers here
                in southland that were being exploited, the farmers had to pay the workers what
                they were owed and pay the correct wages,i don’t know if those workers stayed
                in their jobs or not though.
                There are also alot of overseas workers now on farms and they dont want to rock
                the boat and complain because of their visa requirements, they have to work,so
                they are stuck between a rock and a hard place, the farmers that are involved
                in this practice are shameful and they should be bought to justice.
                These farm workers usually also send some money home to their families,which
                is another reason they don’t complain, the farmers know that too.

          • Fortran 11.2.1.1.2

            Andre

            Where please.

          • Colonial Weka 11.2.1.1.3

            “Farmworker on talk radio.. 12 days on 2 days off 10/11 hours a day He actually gets $5.60 an hour in his pocket……….”

            How is that done? Obviously they’re not being employed in a PAYE job.

            • CV - Real Labour 11.2.1.1.3.1

              You just get asked to do more work than you can fit in an 8 hour day, and because you are on a salary of say $30K pa you don’t get paid for the extra time.

      • Afewknowthetruth 11.2.2

        Such people do not need the opportunity to return to the slave system. They need the opportunity to live productive lives outside the slave system.

        Needless to say, no mainstream political party is prepared to offer such opportunities.

        The other aspect is, that by continuing with manufacturing the people you mentioned destroy their children’s futures. Hardly a worthwhile deal I would have thought.

    • King Kong 11.3

      Afewknowthetruth, I am thinking of opening a parody twitter account posing as a hard core lefty who has completely lost the plot. Similar to the Cath Delahunty parody account.

      Would you mind if I just cut and paste the stuff you write here?

      • Afewknowthetruth 11.3.1

        What is a hared core leftie ? Is it something to do with that idiotic game called rugby, in which grown men run around with a ball and gormless twits pay money to watch them?

        • Enough is Enough 11.3.1.1

          Do you enjoy anything?

          When you wake up in the morning is there anything at all you look forward?

          Why do you have an issue with a game that brings joy to many, you negative hater?

          • King Kong 11.3.1.1.1

            When your superior intellect and wisdom has taken you far above masses, anything outside of your ethereal dominion seems triffling and a waste of time.

    • Polish Pride 11.4

      I wouldn’t say that jobs and Manufacturing are the problem. You actually need these and the capability in order to make the transition to a better system.
      Once you have the support mechanisms or new systems in place to still ensure that people can have the things they need and want then and only then can you start to remove the jobs and the requirement for people to have to work. Until then you still have to play the game – you still have to earn money to buy the things you need and want.

  12. aerobubble 12

    Vehicle safety expert, this morning on NR, said Traffic Police aren’t experts, they can’t just carry
    out a WoF check, they don’t have the tools, changes to allow Police to seek out alterations to vehicles have no effect on safety (well duh maybe the new power has more than just safety in mind). Well firstly, Police turn up immediately when a accident happens, they have huge experience of crash scenes, and the causes. And boy racers do run around in safe vehicles that still cause a public nuisense due to the alterations they have, alterations that disappear when they do get a WoF. So I ask you why would an expert be so naive, so contrary to logic, experience, and real issues of car abuse and still be calling themselves an expert? Why did the interviewer not ask some obvious questions the whole time? Police are ignorant of vehicle safety, is that what you mean? Police need to do a full WoF check right there and then on some rural road? The only problem with cars are safety issues, really??? Have you lived in NZ, heard of ChCh boyracers, of the Hamilton Te Rapa???

    • Rogue Trooper 12.1

      another cupla’ spheres from the air;
      NZ Property Council and Ak Council / s “speaking different languages”
      Parata slips on the sea-monster; How capable John? or just another Please Don’t Let Me be Miss Understood beastie?
      “Jum” never caught the rye’ forecast, maybe he is a classical ecaunomist lingering.
      Wishbone Ash Atmosphere? Cut it out Lord. That’s The Way

      now, where was I, oh that’s correct, J-A ZZ J-A ZZ, said she aint here but she sure went Fast
      (feel like a soldier, look like a thief) It’s our day. Chop Chop.

      …and on the travelator tonight we have…
      Now listen (echo) you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. Your gold and silver are tarnished. Their tarnish will testify against you and eat your flesh like house, contents and fire insurance. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields, willingly too I might add, are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters (Claasy) have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you. (See how the farmer waits for the land to yield it’s valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains; as an example of patience take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. As you know, we consider blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance? )
      The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

      -Hop Sing

  13. kiwi_prometheus 13

    “http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10862422″

    No wonder the police struggle to get recruits or retain staff. Seems any drunk obnoxious brat can get away with disrespectful behaviour towards police and if the officer does anything about it they lose their job.

    • aerobubble 13.1

      Its not that easy. Training kids to be obnoxious is a false economy, Police is always best done lightly with a large stick. The fact that after five years of Key he has now only just got around to giving Police the power to investigate cars reconfigured to be attention grabbing is just amazing. They can’t crush what they don’t catch.

    • Pascal's bookie 13.2

      Lol, it’s almost like they don’t want insubordinate dropkicks with anger issues.

    • chris73 13.3

      Also one drink-driving conviction rules you out (not that I have one or checked it out or anything…)

    • fatty 13.4

      On the bright side KP, since the cop has been fired, he can now do something productive with his life.

  14. Pascal's bookie 14

    Gordon Campbell withanother example of why it’s laughable when Nats start on with the bellyaching about how much the love they military and lefties hate them and don’t understand and shit.

    http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2013/01/31/gordon-campbell-on-jonathan-colemans-defence-debacle/

  15. Rogue Trooper 16

    Fly by Wire
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/israel-jets-bombs-military-target-in-syria-amid-fears-damascus-will-pass-arms-to-hezbollah/2013/01/30/bc9e60ca-6b3e-11e2-9a0b-db931670f35d_story.html

    “We live in a moment of history where change is so speeded up that we begin to see the present only when it is disappearing” -Stone the crows, ops,
    -R.D Laing ;)

    but that’s ok, Kmart and Buntings have lifted their sales game, the Commerce Commision finds power distribution company profits 5% above inflation, Shock and what Got Carter was the absence of loyalty of farmers supplying the meat co-ops as they sunsat on 100M losses. Had never heard of Thomas Tanner and the Seven Apostles until today in THE LIBRARY.It was the Summer of 69…
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/jan/31/muppets-again-ricky-gervais ma na ma na dee dee di dee dee

    -Constantine (cookie?)

    • Colonial Weka 16.1

      I bet Laing wrote that quite some time ago. Most people don’t get to see the present at all nowadays, it’s already gone.

  16. Slartibartfast 17

    Selected quotes from today’s Howick & Pakaranga Times:

    “This coming year, according to the Chinese calendar, will be the Year of the Snake…….they are considered to be good mediators – keen, cunning, wise, intelligent and quick of wit – with business acumen, or able to trade away posessions……..Materialistic, snake people tend to prefer to have the best of everything but would rather aviod crowds………..known to suffer from stress, they prefer to live a peaceful existence, with plenty of time for relaxation – a heavy workload or busy schedule is not a snakes best friend!…………Happy New Year everyone.”

    • Rogue Trooper 17.1

      element is Water from the 10th on. Pahtay!
      (xtatically, i also clean my own loo, modeled from guess who? Clue: he had the untouchables “re-labeled “children of god”. No I in team, better to be before the 8 ball mates)

      chow (in a laughter lines way)

  17. The latest Roy Morgan is out. National is at 46% still, Labour is stuck on 31.5%. The Greens are up 1.5% to 13.5%. A good poll for them.

    http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2013/4858/

    • McFlock 19.1

      Had a quiet chuckle about a completely irrelevant trend – UF is beginning to acquire more and more of the sub-0.5% “^” symbols. Starting in August, too, so Dunne doesn’t even have the parliamentary break as a complete excuse :)

    • JK 19.2

      So the Housing announcement hasn’t made much difference to Labour’s potential fortunes !

    • bad12 19.3

      15% for the Green Party in November 2014, not impossible…

      • The Al1en 19.3.1

        Only 15% you say.
        20% – 25% party if Labour carry on like they are, I reckon.

        • bad12 19.3.1.1

          Nah i prefer the thought of the Green party gradually picking up a % here and a % there of the ‘registered but did not vote crowd’…

          • Colonial Viper 19.3.1.1.1

            Your way is better and would give the Greens a better chance of lasting more than one term in Government before self destructing.

  18. gobsmacked 20

    Latest poll … National + Labour no change, Greens moving up.

    http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2013/4858/

    I suppose the genius Shearer puppet-masters will have a Plan … 1) attack the Greens! 2) sack somebody and look tough!

    (Alternative plan – actually believe in something, and be able to explain it. I know it’s a bit left field, but it might work).

    edit … slowly composed while MickeyS was nipping in first

  19. bad12 21

    7000 cows take to cruising the ocean waves, China here we come, short term gain for long term pain as China builds it’s dairy herd from the best stock all over the World,

    In ten years time when that herd numbers 5 or 10 million Fonterra won’t be able to sell an ounce of baby formula into China unless of cause if it wants to take a bath on the price the Chinese are willing to pay,

    Bits of old dead cow will be cheap in the supermarkets as farmers in both Canterbury and the East of the North Island de-stock in the face of drought conditions…

    • Colonial Weka 21.1

      That’s good news isn’t it?

      • bad12 21.1.1

        Only if you eat bits of dead cow, which i do coz it does wonders for my bowels, lolz things must be slow if i am discussing my ablution habits,

        Chickens tho remain stubbornly pricey after the pre-Christmas price gouge, note to chicken producers, we aint buying them until the price goes back down, (which will probably be not long after they have squeezed the last egg possible out of the poor old chooks)…

  20. Jenny 22

    No Right Turn

    Climate change: Keeping the coal in the hole

    It looks like Solid Energy’s plans to strip-mine Southland for dirty lignite are on the skids:
    Energy experts are criticising plans made by state-owned miner Solid Energy, saying efforts to build a large export factory in Southland’s Mataura valley are uneconomic.

    The state-owned miner’s lignite briquettes are expected to go on sale this year, but an ambitious plan to export the pellets overseas is now looking unlikely.

    Which means less coal mined, and therefore lower emissions. Which can only be positive for our environment.

    Meanwhile, the fact that Solid Energy was considering this plan at all shows that National’s corrupted ETS isn’t working. It was supposed to discourage the dirtiest of industries; instead the promise of subsidies for pollution seems to have encouraged them.

    Idiot/Savant No Right Turn 31/01/13

    What Idiot/Savant forgot to mention, was that even under Labour’s version, the ETS, Pollution Trading Scheme, didn’t discourage this “dirtiest of industries”. It was in fact under the last Labour Government that this “ambitious” initiative was begun and even championed.

    It is not that unlikely that a Shearer led government will also encourage and champion such extreme fossil fuel initiatives. Including the strip mining of the Denniston Plateau and Deep Sea Oil Drilling, and onshore and offshore fracking.

    What this means for the Green Party, is that the Greens will have to accept these policies if they want a coalition agreement with Labour.

    This goes a long way to explaining why the Green Party website takes pains not to give climate change issues any prominent profile.

    This is a necessary preparation for the sell out to come.

    You heard it here first. Just try and pretend to look surprised, when it happens.

    • bad12 22.1

      Yes Jenny, thank you Jenny, by the way, hows the formation of the ‘alternative green die in the ditch party’ going…

    • CV - Real Labour 22.2

      What surprise? I’ve been telling you that the coal train is speeding up, not slowing down.

    • bad12 22.3

      My view was that the ETS was never going to work it was and is simply a capitalist inspired take-over attempt on the Green Movement,

      Jeanette F once flew into a public rage at such a questioning of the Emissions Trading Scam, (not long after that little exhibition She announced Her retirement),

      i have always advocated for a localized carbon tax which should be spent into the economy (a) planting trees, even buying out the less productive land to plant upon, (b) research and development into ways of lowering carbon emissions for industry, and (c) research and development into the means of industrialized removal of carbon from the atmosphere…

  21. bad12 23

    52 million unemployed,

    600,000 living in cave like conditions or under plastic which makes a UN tent city seem quite luxurious,relying upon food charity for their daily needs,

    North Korea??? Somalia???,

    Nah that greatest of countries in the World Amerika,

    Them and North Korea polar opposites on the political spectrum, but where it really counts,for those on the bottom of the economic heap, not an iota of difference…

    • CV - Real Labour 23.1

      but where it really counts,for those on the bottom of the economic heap, not an iota of difference…

      Well if you are poor in the US you can still get alcohol, tobacco and firearms more easily than if you are poor in North Korea. That must count for something?

  22. Rogue Trooper 24

    223? anyway, mad as a cleaver;
    no lattes from Guatemala now Dr Ropata, no fool like an old fool new world boy on the old Kings Road, Sha na na : Havoc Rocks The History of The World in One Site, Scrumpy (make sure you imbibe ‘eaps of water throughout the night)

    -Lucy lucy oh no, we not go… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uD9ZRlvnh7w

  23. Rogue Trooper 25

    the copper shell may seek

  24. Rogue Trooper 26

    nite ( and just to swear for a break; fuck there are some oily dicks creep on here) unfuckinbelievable no balls, else they would front the peacemaker…

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