Open mike 31/08/2012

108 comments on “Open mike 31/08/2012 ”

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1. Morrissey 1

   31 August 2012 at 6:14 am

   Great Minds Grapple With The Great Issues

   THE ENVIRONMENT….
   “Fracking. I’ve read a few articles in the Economist on it, and I’m okay with it, as long as it’s done safely.”— Larry Williams, 29 August 2012

   THE NEED FOR INTELLIGENT PUBLIC DEBATE….
   “I’m here to make people think. That’s all I want.” — Mike Hosking, 30 August 2012

   THE GAY MARRIAGE BILL….
   “All this talk about rights. Do I have the right to walk into a women’s toilet?”—Leighton Smith, 30 August 2012

   NewstalkZB. Tune Your Mind.
   • Professor Longhair 1.1

     31 August 2012 at 1:23 pm

     Three dimwitted, dismal and doleful dunces there, Morrissey.

     Two questions: How on earth can you listen to such dopey fellows? And: Why do you listen to them?
2. Pascal's bookie 2

   31 August 2012 at 6:58 am

   That Mr DotCom appears to be somewhat of an epic shitstirrer au.

   https://twitter.com/KimDotcom/status/241239891843878912
   • Sanctuary 2.1

     31 August 2012 at 7:24 am

     He wouldn’t be able to be such a shit stirrer if he hadn’t been treated so abysmally by the Auckland National Party elite, who have been shown to be a bunch of craven cads and dishonourable in their dealings. The whole shameful treatment of Mr. Dotcom by people he clearly considered were his friends but who were really only mongrels with cupboard love and nice suits to my my mind cracks the edge of the manhole cover and allows us a glimpse into the sewer that is the inner machinations of that class of rich, conservative Aucklanders who assume to rule the city.
     • mickysavage 2.1.1

       31 August 2012 at 7:40 am

       I am sure there is something there.  It is beyond comprehension that the Minister in charge of the SIS would only have been told about a pending raid on the day of the raid.

       It is also unbelievable that a free spending multi millionaire who made a major donation to a right wing politician would not have wanted to meet the PM.  I quite like Kim and mean this in the nicest way but he does appear to be the sort of person who wants to mix with the rich and powerful and why wouldn’t he have met Key?

       Two questions that I would love to have the answers to:

       1.  Did he actually meet Key and when?
       2.  Has he donated money to the National Party?

       Sounds like we may know soon. 
       • Tiger Mountain 2.1.1.1

         31 August 2012 at 8:03 am

         Excellent, I have maintained for months that ShonKey lied on “Campbell Live” about being unaware of Mr Dotcom’s existence till the day of the raid because of his SIS link and the FBI involvement.
         • mike e 2.1.1.1.1

           31 August 2012 at 10:30 am

           He was mummbling so he was lying.
           Just like when he lied about armoured vehicles he looked very old and shifty eyed when lied there.
         • North 2.1.1.1.2

           31 August 2012 at 9:43 pm

           Well if he didn’t know about it I’m Vladimir Putin !

           So he’s a cheap little fibber and one day he gonna get caught out bad.

           Sir Kiwi Kim Dotcom may well be the lie detector.
       • felix 2.1.1.2

         31 August 2012 at 8:42 am

         Definitely lying on Campbell Live.

         And he dropped himself in it with his earlier remarks that he definitely didn’t meet Dotcom and if he had, he definitely would have remembered such an unusual name.
         • Glg 2.1.1.2.1

           31 August 2012 at 9:16 am

           Key said he had never heard of Dotcom till the day before the raids. So according to the hearing I went to, the FBI were here in New Zealand in September and October 2011, we have the copyright dude and lots of others travelling here, and not one person mentioned this to the Prime Minister?
           Also just about everyone in Auckland knew Dotcom had paid for the New Years eve fireworks at SkyCity (you know, Sky City, good friends of the PM), yet John Key hadn’t heard that?
           And that’s not even to mention the gymnastics that took place so John Key could avoid any constituency work relating to Dotcom.
       • Anne 2.1.1.3

         31 August 2012 at 9:38 am

         but he does appear to be the sort of person who wants to mix with the rich and powerful

         Should read: was the sort of person who wants to mix with the rich and powerful.

         Now he knows what s—ts the rich and powerful are, he might like to throw a few campaign dimes in the way of the opposition parties. 🙂
         • rosy 2.1.1.3.1

           31 August 2012 at 10:01 pm

           Don’t get me wrong – I’d love to see dotcom expose Key – but he’s always known the score.

           There is no love lost between rich and powerful men when one of them is scorned. Dotcom is that one. He’s as bad as the rest, it’s just his interests coincide with ours at the moment. It doesn’t make him some sort of Everyman hero.
   • tc 2.2

     31 August 2012 at 10:26 am

     Dotcom will be the gift that keeps on giving, he’s smart, well resourced and understands the necessity of backup and redundancy in times of disaster.

     Santuary sums it up nicely and what an arrogant foolish lot if they thought they could treat him like this, guess that’s what happens when you didn’t go to the right schools and clubs and have that automatic ‘get off scot free’ card that Blinky carries.

     Wonder if Kim has some evidence that proves beyond all doubt Key’s a lying SOB he’d like to share with us all, come on Kim they will never ever be trustworthy but you know that already.
3. Morrissey 3

   31 August 2012 at 7:03 am

   Brilliant! Thanks for that. The comments section underneath it is interesting: that bloke calling himself UNI (“Another impressive interview in a row by John Key..”) seems so bewildered and doctrinaire that I suspect he is actually our friend “Gosman”.
4. Carol 4

   31 August 2012 at 7:28 am

   This article takes up most of the front page of today’s hard copy of the west Auckland paper, Western Leader. It’s about the dire housing shortage, especially affordable and safe housing for families in west Auckland – and the inadequate government plans to deal with it.

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/western-leader/7578075/Desperate-for-a-home

   A whopping $45 million being spent on state housing in Auckland within the next three years won’t lead to more homes.

   Housing New Zealand is spending the funds on refurbishing and upgrading 80 existing houses, including 68 in West Auckland. It’ll then subdivide the land and sell to developers to build private rental properties and community housing.

   Half of the homes will be refurbished and others will be demolished and rebuilt, meaning the number of state houses available remains the same.
   …
   Henderson Salvation Army operations manager Rhondda Middleton says Housing New Zealand’s latest project does not help what she describes as the worst housing crises she’s ever seen.

   “We have four or five families come in here every week who are in desperate need of affordable housing and there just isn’t enough to go around,” she says.

   “Some people are taking months to find houses and in the meantime they have to resort to caravan parks or living in incredibly cramped situations with extended family.”
   • Rosie 4.1

     31 August 2012 at 7:45 am

     Carol, yesterday I was wondering if MSM are very slowly waking up to the fact we have a crisis in NZ. In the space of a week the Dom Post had 2 stories about families in Porirua who are living in dire circumstances due to poverty wages and two weeks prior to that the Dom had Deborah Russell’s welcome and refreshing piece regarding our prejudiced attitudes around beneficiaries. In each three instances however, fairfax had the comments section turned on which unleashed the usual contempt and misunderstanding that is prevelant within a sector of the public. It’s so upsetting to read those vile comments. Its highlights the selfish nastiness within our society. With voters like no wonder we have a National govt.
     • Carol 4.1.1

       31 August 2012 at 8:07 am

       Yes, it’s dispiriting to read some of those nasty comments, Rosie.

       I think decades of neoliberal propaganda has fed such beliefs – not just through direct bennie-bashing by politicians and the MSM, but through the underlying myths about individualism, meritocracy etc.

       It’ll take a long time to turn the general public away from such destructive ways of thinking.
       • aerobubble 4.1.1.1

         31 August 2012 at 10:25 am

         Advancing on merit ended with Thatcher, when monetarism forced on us by gushing cheap middle eastern oil emerged to dominant the polis. Better government would have been the
         answer, but instead we got thirty years of right and left wing government bad, profits good.
         If we keep dumb-ing down government any parent can eventually sell their kid into slavery,
         well we have, we just did not do it explicitly, we just borrowed and borrowed…

         …neo-liberals didn’t just build endless inefficient sprawl but also elevated zombies into power.
         The global market failure is due to the mismatch between the perceived needs and the
         real current results of current socio-economics. The demand-supply mismatch. We
         as a people do not want to gift our children a hell on earth.
         • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.1

           31 August 2012 at 12:24 pm

           The demand-supply mismatch.

           Go read Debunking Economics. In it Keen points out that the supply curve of neo-liberalism doesn’t apply.
5. Logie97 5

   31 August 2012 at 7:34 am

   Has Collins at last been shown to be fluff?
   Looks like a complete fail on her “get tough” on alcohol measures.
   No change, by all accounts,
   • Chris 5.1

     31 August 2012 at 8:34 am

     Didn’t she say once “You know me, I never back down” or was that someone else.
   • mike e 5.2

     31 August 2012 at 10:33 am

     She will be crushing ice for her cock tails
     • Draco T Bastard 5.2.1

       31 August 2012 at 12:43 pm

       Don’t be silly, the crushed ice will just magically appear in her cocktails when she speaks to the air.
6. Rosie 6

   31 August 2012 at 7:36 am

   New from International Labour Rights Forum: Freedom at work: Democracy and ecomony for all

   This will be a good resource to read if you’re interested in global Labour Rights/Union news. This is fresh from the inbox this am, so have just had a skim read. Interesting stat on page 5 though. The chart shows that voter turnout is higher in areas that have greater union density. If this is a factor in voter turnout it could be part of the reason,of which there are several, that our voters strayed away from the polling booths last year.

   http://laborrights.org/sites/default/files/publications-and-resources/FAW2012.pdf
7. mickysavage 7

   31 August 2012 at 7:50 am

   Gina Rinehart represents the ALP’s best chance of retaining power in Australia. Because she is really, really scary.  Her particular mix of belligerent stupidity and gross superiority is bad enough, but her desire to affect Australian politics makes Rupert Murdoch look like a weak wristed Social Democrat.

   Her latest pronouncements include:

   1. Those who are jealous of the wealthy should start working harder and cut down on drinking, smoking and socializing, and although not mentioned it helps if their father leaves them valuable mineral rights;

   2. Billionaires like herself who were doing more than anyone to help the poor by investing their money and creating jobs;

   3. The government should lower the minimum wage of $606.40 a week and cut taxes to stimulate employment.

   I guess this sense of superiority is necessary because otherwise she would, or should, feel deeply ashamed for hoarding so much of the world’s wealth beyond any conceivable need.
   • Sanctuary 7.1

     31 August 2012 at 8:05 am

     Gina Rinehart’s formula for success:

     1. Work harder.

     2. Drink less.

     3. Inherit a billion dollars.
     • Dr Terry 7.1.1

       31 August 2012 at 8:59 am

       Rinehart makes the common assumption of the disgustingly (fat) and rich, that we lowly people actually envy them. Probably a majority simply despise them. Not everybody, by any means, has a singular desire to be hugely wealthy. Most are content if they can support themselves and/or dependents without a struggle (which, of course, many NZ’ers have to do) and manage something by way of savings (or ability to meet mortgage payments).

       I would want to be like Rinehart? My gosh, I would rather have never lived.
     • mike e 7.1.2

       31 August 2012 at 10:36 am

       Inherit billions that was a fluke of her farther landing his plane on the hammersley ranges in a violent rain storm an accidently finding iron ore.
   • tc 7.2

     31 August 2012 at 10:38 am

     Scary physically, financially and emotionally. Born with the biggest silver spoon in Oz , sued her stepmother (Rose) , threatening her kids if they don’t come to heel so the Oz governments and the media don’t frighten her one little bit, she’s as hard as a coffin nail.

     So far she’s looking like she’s destroyed Fairfax, whose management had done a fair job of ruining it under Kirk etc. 2 possibilities a) It’s likely to be split up which would make for bigger enemies with the separately rescued and owned Age (melbourne) and Sydney MH by locals keen to keep the heritage. b) she’ll sweep back in and buy the whole lot for a song.

     You get a fair go in OZ, it’s part of the convict pysche that bred the ‘Aussie battler’ image or suffer the consequences and she’s pushed it out way to far.
   • joe90 7.3

     31 August 2012 at 11:11 am

     http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revolt-of-the-rich/
     • fnjckg 7.3.1

       31 August 2012 at 11:48 am

       Yep
     • NickS 7.3.2

       31 August 2012 at 3:45 pm

       Thanks, ’tis always good to be reminded that we do have some allies on the right, if even they can be rather fickle on expanding civil rights some times 😉
   • Murray Olsen 7.4

     31 August 2012 at 2:41 pm

     Look who she inherited the mines from:
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-RV9reCDbY
   • NickS 7.5

     31 August 2012 at 3:54 pm

     Fortunately for Australia she’s too damn thick to play teh politics properly and has a bad case of foot-in-mouth syndrome. So her rather vocal support will likely carry with it potentially negative effects 😉
8. Tiger Mountain 8

   31 August 2012 at 8:00 am

   Crazy shit, several hundred SA miners get arrested and charged with murder re the striking miners the cops shot!
   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19424484
   • mickysavage 8.1

     31 August 2012 at 8:17 am

     Yep and using the old apartheid law of “common purpose”.  There is something deeply unsettling here.
     • Dr Terry 8.1.1

       31 August 2012 at 9:07 am

       This just reminds us that we “never have seen it all”. Does apartheid and its laws continue even under black African leadership? Some of us paid dearly to install this current government.
       • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1

         31 August 2012 at 11:06 am

         The elite will not have their rule challenged, no matter what colour they are.
       • joe90 8.1.1.2

         31 August 2012 at 1:31 pm

         The elite will not have their rule challenged, no matter what colour they are

         Former unionist Cyril Ramaphosa is now a director of Lonmin.
         • NickS 8.1.1.2.1

           31 August 2012 at 3:48 pm

           Meet the new boss, same as the old boss 🙁
   • joe90 8.2

     31 August 2012 at 1:18 pm

     The unacceptable face of capitalism never left.

     http://dailymaverick.co.za/article/2012-08-30-the-murder-fields-of-marikana-the-cold-murder-fields-of-marikana

     Of the 34 miners killed at Marikana, no more than a dozen of the dead were captured in news footage shot at the scene. The majority of those who died, according to surviving strikers and researchers, were killed beyond the view of cameras at a nondescript collection of boulders some 300 metres behind Wonderkop

     […]

     …It is becoming clear to this reporter that heavily armed police hunted down and killed the miners in cold blood. A minority were killed in the filmed event where police claim they acted in self-defence. The rest was murder on a massive scale.

     edit: http://news.linktv.org/videos/police-open-fire-on-south-african-miners-dramatic-footage
   • Ianmac from Vietnam 8.3

     31 August 2012 at 2:21 pm

     If the “World” demands Justice these charges cannot go ahead. Translate this into the NZ situation where strikes happen and could we accept it? Bizzare!
9. Anton 9

   31 August 2012 at 8:29 am

   A friend has put together a site to discuss the claims the tobacco companies are making about the upcoming regulation of their packaging. For example, they think they are the thin end of the wedge: what other products might have mandated packaging requirements? Personally I’m thinking food for one, and medicine for another! (oh and booze, but that’s a whole other website 🙂

   its at http://www.agree2disagree.co.nz/ (witty, n’est pas?)
   • Shane Gallagher 9.1

     31 August 2012 at 1:08 pm

     Cool – have posted some apt comments already! Great to see some web activism against big tobacco.
   • fatty 9.2

     31 August 2012 at 1:19 pm

     plain packaging on harmful foods and alcohol would be great
     • Anton 9.2.1

       31 August 2012 at 3:24 pm

       Now that we have controlled substances like laudanum, lead based makeup and sippin’ meths, cigarettes are the obvious next risky thing to control. Maybe growing for personal use will be the way to go, I don’t know. But once the pointless and dangerous addictive tobacco is controlled, food will be next on the agenda – and that’s a good thing.
10. F*#k Off 10

    31 August 2012 at 9:40 am

     

    I don’t care anymore about the Latte labour party. They’re f*#k’d! Having the marriage bill front & centre at a time when the country’s on it’s knees and bleeding money/debt, real unemployment at 9.1% economy is dead, asset sales & water ri

    ghts are the real battle ground, the TPPA being put together in secret and has killed off any new trade deals since 2008. An incompetent government that spends money on go nowhere programmes and the Latte club can’t get a target in their sites! Roll on the Greens & Mana,NZ First coalition!
    • Bored 10.1

      31 August 2012 at 10:30 am

      There be dragons: been there this week. We’ve had a show trial: subject closed.
    • Uturn 10.2

      31 August 2012 at 10:33 am

      The simple reply is that, yes, there are a lot of problems, but to solve those problems we need everyone knowing they belong, before we begin to tackle the problems. We may even find some problems go away naturally once people aren’t fighting themsleves. It’s foundational work, for small cost. Smart stuff.
      • fnjckg 10.2.1

        31 August 2012 at 11:52 am

        culture deceptive
        nations instruments

        (welcome the PRC; is on the Way round)
    • QoT 10.3

      31 August 2012 at 3:18 pm

      Ah, I see you don’t understand how Parliament works. Carry on then.
    • Vicky32 10.4

      1 September 2012 at 2:21 am

      I don’t care anymore about the Latte labour party. They’re f*#k’d! Having the marriage bill front & centre at a time when the country’s on it’s knees and bleeding money/debt, real unemployment at 9.1% economy is dead, asset sales & water rights..

      Pretty much, although I don’t blame the whole Labour party for that.. If I did, I don’t know what I’d do – the Greens are dishonest, so what would that leave? 🙁
      • F*#k Off 10.4.1

        1 September 2012 at 2:09 pm

        Well V32 I think a party with a leader like George Galloway would be a great start. A principled working class party would be great as well. I think if you watch this clip by George you’d kinda see what I mean, principled & leadership & values. Isn’t that what the Labour party use to be instead of what it’s morphed into? A bunch of white lily-livered middle class tossers! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eB49BabRxk
        • lprent 10.4.1.1

          1 September 2012 at 7:21 pm

          Talking about British politicians, I just hope that he is more competent than these principled people who demand values and leadership in british politics…

          

          It has been amusing me ever since I saw it, and I really can’t tell one british politician from another….
          • F*#k Off 10.4.1.1.1

            1 September 2012 at 8:20 pm

            You must be talking about tories & the British Labour party …. with those two NZ’s Nat’s & Labour party have a lot in common? Completely f*#k’n useless! 
            • Carol 10.4.1.1.1.1

              1 September 2012 at 8:25 pm

              You must be talking about tories & the British Labour party

              Not if the number plates and Brit nationalistic graphics are anything to go by.
              • Morrissey …

                2 September 2012 at 7:30 am

                Note also the short haircuts, T-shirts and bovver boots.
                • Te Reo Putake …

                  2 September 2012 at 8:04 am

                  Yep, it’s the BNP. When you’re the master race you don’t need to read no stinking signs, eh!
        • Vicky32 10.4.1.2

          2 September 2012 at 4:31 pm

          Isn’t that what the Labour party use to be instead of what it’s morphed into?

          Yes, indeed! I do favour Galloway… Thanks for the link.. 🙂
11. just saying 11

    31 August 2012 at 10:13 am

    Via the “Keeping Stock” blog, via “Idle Thoughts of an Idle Fellow” blog which keeps updated headlines from a variety of blogs, here is what Josie Pagani said in this week’s Listener:

    “Someone on the internet says I’m a “post-modernist twit”. How would you text that insult? “U po mo”? I’ve also become an “ism”; Pagani-ism. I’d rather be a “nomics”. Do I have to destroy an economy to be known for Pagani-nomics? Those insults appeared on left-wing blogs after I defended Labour leader David Shearer when he said, and I paraphrase: “Someone who shouldn’t be on the dole shouldn’t be on the dole.” The political left needs to argue a principled case for welfare reform. People have a right to be looked after when they can’t provide for themselves, yet today if you are on a benefit, you live in poverty. You get stuck.
    I’ve lived in a family where joining a gang was a way to make something of yourself. But by equating any reform with beneficiary bashing, the left has allowed the expression “welfare reform” to be owned by people who neither believe in welfare nor want to see it last another century. Postmodern Pagani-nomics stresses respect for responsibilities as well as rights.”

    I have two things to say:
    1. You have to wonder about the difference, if any, between PR spin and outright lies. Is there any limit to what those in the business may invent to manipulate public discourse. Josie Pagani knows perfectly well that the “anecdote” she says she was defending was not about whether “someone who shouldn’t be on the dole, shouldn’t be on the dole”. It was about whether neighbours should surveil sickness beneficiaries and assume they are fraudsters until proven otherwise. (yes I also paraphrase, but within the actual facts).

    2. Given that Ms Pagani objected to Standard commenters allegedly making assumptions about her political views based on her husband’s political views, does anyone else find it ironic that she has usurped the title ‘Paganiism’ earned by her husband by his public expressions of his political views, as being due to her own efforts? I hadn’t heard of Josie Pagani until some while after I started using the phrase.
    • Uturn 11.1

      31 August 2012 at 10:24 am

      There is was so much wrong with that “man on the roof” speech, and the associated defence of it, that it is a dimspiration to us all.

      The most stultifying aspect is that the defenders (well, some of them) clearly have the basic tools to examine their own arguments and find the errors and contradictions, but instead they use those basic tools to defend the errors and contradictions.
      • weka 11.1.1

        31 August 2012 at 11:24 am

        Yes, that bothers me. Shearer made a complete hash of it yesterday, trying to defend the thing but doing so in a way that had no logic whatsoever. It’s quite a twist to compromise one’s own intellectual capacity that way. God knows what that does to a person’s core self.

        js’s point 1 – I think it is both – lies and spin. This isn’t just a disagreement about policy direction (although it could have been just that). She can keep defending Shearer and the path they are taking with all the spinlies she likes but Ms Pagani has no integrity at all, and there is no coming back from that. 

        As for welfare reform, here’s top of my list: do a proper review of the benefit abatement rules, making sure to consult with experts and stakeholders from outside the department. The biggest disincentive for sickness and other beneficiaries is the fact that taking part time work will cost them money.

        Beyond that, review what contributing to society means in real terms, not just how it looks in the stats of unemployment or welfare payments. Put value on all the things that people do, not just the one’s that have a formal pay check.

         
        • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1

          31 August 2012 at 11:56 am

          <blockquoteShearer made a complete hash of it yesterday, trying to defend the thing but doing so in a way that had no logic whatsoever. It’s quite a twist to compromise one’s own intellectual capacity that way. God knows what that does to a person’s core self.

          Could someone please give Shearer a light tap with a brass striker and and see if he rings.
    • Bored 11.2

      31 August 2012 at 10:32 am

      Mentioned this a few days previous….if Pagani(s)=Labour……show over, Shonkey wins by default, or National Lite beat Shonkeys mob. We have a problem Houston.
      • Colonial Viper 11.2.1

        31 August 2012 at 11:57 am

        Membership revolt
      • F*#k Off 11.2.2

        3 September 2012 at 10:42 am

        B. Don’t forget the wishy washy middle class are a bit flakey and are starting to fall out of luv with PinoKeyo …. and are more likely to jump onto the green waka.
    • Blue 11.3

      31 August 2012 at 12:47 pm

      Dear Josie,

      David Shearer’s cute little ‘sickness beneficiary’ story showed him blindly agreeing with a prejudiced bigot without knowing any of the facts of the situation.

      He had no idea of the situation of the man painting his roof and made no attempt to find out his side of the story and whether he should or should not have been on a benefit. And no, painting his roof does not automatically mean he shouldn’t have been, as Bill’s excellent post here on The Standard demonstrated.

      That anecdote is what you expect from the leader of the National Party, the natural home of benny bashing voters. You don’t expect it from the leader of Labour.

      But the reason you don’t get all this is because, unbeknownst to you, you are in the wrong party yourself. The party that traditionally runs lines about ‘responsibility as well as rights’ is the right wing party, not the left wing one.

      It’s never too late to correct your error and join National. I’m sure they will be glad to listen to Pagani-nomics.
      • gobsmacked 11.3.1

        31 August 2012 at 1:14 pm

        We mustn’t criticise the Labour leader. He is doing a great job. because … well, because he’s the Labour leader. QED.

        If you criticise, Captain Hook will call you an “agent provocateur”. Always remember – our leaders are wise, and we are the real problem.
      • weka 11.3.2

        31 August 2012 at 1:31 pm

        The ‘rights and responsibilities’ bullshit needs demolishing. Beneficiaries are generally well aware of their responsibilities, or they find out pretty bloody quick – they lose income if they’re don’t. They’re also usually very aware of how much and how often their rights are disregarded by WINZ (and the Minister), because likewise, it directly affects their income. Often their right to personhood and human decency is ignored or overridden too.

        What Pagani and Bennett mean by ‘responsibility’ is that beneficiaries are now supposed to take on the burden of proving they’re not a bludger. Everyone on SB is a bludger until proven otherwise just like the man painting his roof. Everyone on the dole is a bludger until they get a job. Apparently beneficiaries are now also responsible for there not being enough jobs, because if they just took on their responsibilities then there would be enough and society wouldn’t have a problem with welfare.

        To give Shearer the benefit of the doubt, he probably was largely unaware of the damage done by the bludger meme to people on sickness benefit in particular. But you’d have to be a heartless bastard to not understand now that the issue has been raised.
        • just saying 11.3.2.1

          31 August 2012 at 1:59 pm

          I very much doubt Shearer has been acquainted with arguments like ours about how and why his anecdote was harmful to almost all sickness beneficiaries, and also about how his following National’s agenda in the manner he has been practising is harmful to the health of the Labour Party.

          The Labour leadership could not function as it does if it was not wilfully disconnected from all centre left and left criticisms of it, and also from the wider centre-left/leftwing discourse.

          There is a reason that Shearer is happy to engage with right-wing talkback audiences yet refuses to engage here or with any other wider-left medium, and why the leadership team and it’s hangers-on like to demonise us all as nasty and irrational and beyond the pale.
          • gobsmacked 11.3.2.1.1

            31 August 2012 at 2:11 pm

            If anyone missed it, here’s the transcript of Shearer being interviewed about the “roof bludger” … scroll down:

            http://bat-bean-beam.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/the-man-on-roof.html#addendum
          • weka 11.3.2.1.2

            31 August 2012 at 2:42 pm

            Js, do you mean that Ms Pagani won’t have discussed with Shearer or caucus why she is defending him or disparaging the left blogosphere over the issue?

            Giovanni Tiso’s post (just linked) suggests that Shearer knows there is an issue. He interrupts the interviewer and then goes on to defend his speech without having to have the issue explained to him. Sounds like he knows enough to know there is an issue, so if he doesn’t know the detail by now, then that is willful ignorance.
            • just saying 11.3.2.1.2.1

              31 August 2012 at 3:00 pm

              He’s knows there’s an issue from a PR point of view. That’s different to understanding what the issues are.

              As for Ms Pagani, if she has discussed this with Shearer at all, it will have been to sympathise with him about the “overreaction” from the likes of you and I, and possibly the best angles to mitigate the damage, imho.

              I think it is difficult, from the transcript of Shearers words, to get any clear idea about what he thinks or knows about anything at all.
          • Rhinocrates 11.3.2.1.3

            2 September 2012 at 4:53 pm

            I very much doubt Shearer has been acquainted with arguments like ours about how and why his anecdote was harmful to almost all sickness beneficiaries

            Because as as UN functionary, he was safely protected in the role as savour to the benighted, savage masses. He’s finding it really hard to realise that he’s not the white knight descending from high to save the poor savages, but a servant, a representative, put forward to champion citizens, and as such, beholden to listen to them, and if not, to be sacked.

            Sorry Dave, but mago rinds tossed over the side of your truck aren’t enough. Don’t worry however, I’m sure the ghost of Marie Antoinette will console you. I’m sure that she felt that the peasants treated her unfairly too when she said some really, really sincerely intended things about eating brioche if there wasn’t enough bread to go around.
    • QoT 11.4

      31 August 2012 at 3:28 pm

      Postmodern Pagani-nomics stresses respect for responsibilities as well as rights.”

      Yes, Josie, and that’s what makes you a fucking beneficiary-basher.

      If I constantly add “but remember some men are rapists” to the end of every sentence I utter about sexual violence, I’m pretty sure people would start saying (not that they don’t already) “hey QoT, that sounds pretty man-hating, like you want to constantly reinforce the men = rapists idea in our heads.”

      Likewise, if you feel the need to add “but people have responsibilities not to be evil bludgers!” to the end of literally every speech you make about our social welfare system, people might just start suspecting that you’re a little bit hyper-focused on the bludgers. Who aren’t actually a big problem, and whose criminality (such as exists) should never be used by an allegedly leftwing person to frame discussions of social welfare.

      Because, and you know, I shouldn’t have to explain this to a politician, much less one married to a key political strategist (you know, the way the Briscoes Lady’s partner probably knows a lot about flatware), but when you frame shit in a way that benefits your opponent’s arguments, you make it easier for them to win. Duh.
      • Colonial Viper 11.4.1

        31 August 2012 at 4:33 pm

        If I constantly add “but remember some men are rapists” to the end of every sentence I utter about sexual violence, I’m pretty sure people would start saying (not that they don’t already) “hey QoT, that sounds pretty man-hating, like you want to constantly reinforce the men = rapists idea in our heads.”

        Such a lovely self-aware sense of self deprecation.
      • ak 11.4.2

        31 August 2012 at 6:12 pm

        You got it your Highness. She’s either thick as pig shit or a closet tory.

        Every amoeba with half a milli-ounce of grey matter knows that the terms “individual responsibility” “welfare dependency” and “welfare reform” are the carefully-constructed propaganda-bites of the divide-and-conquer Right, to be repeated ad nauseam at each an every opportunity.

        Instead of railing at the inanity and deliberate manipulation from the outset – all are as valid as, say, “employer dependency” or “taxpayer dependency” for workers and politicians – wee Jose and her cobbers have sat on their fat, worker-funded arses and now peddle the same steaming pus with bells on.

        If it’s now entrenched in the voting public that you purport to woo, Josie, it means you failed. Since 1998. Either apologise and change or piss off. You too Trev, real people are hurting out here.
        • Colonial Viper 11.4.2.1

          1 September 2012 at 9:10 pm

          You got it your Highness. She’s either thick as pig shit or a closet tory.

          Not mutually exclusive, mate.
    • Olwyn 11.5

      31 August 2012 at 4:18 pm

      These members of the Labour Party who don’t mind dishing it out to beneficiaries seem oddly sensitive to criticism of themselves. Surely you only go into politics if you think you are up for facing some criticism and strongly worded disagreement. And there is something vulgar about sulking in salaried comfort because some people didn’t like the mean things you said about people whose everyday misery dwarfs your own hurt feelings.
      • weka 11.5.1

        31 August 2012 at 7:24 pm

        +1 

        I feel like getting out the violins for poor Ms P.
12. fnjckg 12

    31 August 2012 at 10:26 am

    Pagani-ism is a wonderful neologism
    NZ MSM-spectacle
    TS-community

    anyway,
    Relativity-“exploded the myth of common-sense”-Polkinghorne

    ‘because we cannot perceive the structure of space-time with our senses, it encourages humility towards surprising events’-T.F Torrance

    Today, gardening, washing, wood chopped, boil-up, and something else but oh, the stm aint what it used to be, aint what it used to be…
13. uke 13

    31 August 2012 at 11:50 am

    According to an annual survey of global arms sales conducted by the Congressional Research Service, US arms sales have tripled between 2010 to 2011 to record levels. The US now accounts for over 75% of global arms deals. One commentator remarks:

    “The tripling of US arms sales abroad to a record $66.3 billion is an accurate barometer of the accelerating drive to war in the Persian Gulf and on a world scale. This one violently surging sector of American exports reflects a diseased capitalist economy and society, whose financial-corporate elite resorts to militarism as a means of offsetting the overall economic decline of the United States.
    …
    The arms industry is massively subsidized by the American taxpayer. While the political establishment and media insist “there is no money” when it comes to jobs, decent wages, education and vital public services, endless billions are lavished on America’s merchants of death.”

    This article also notes that of the US$66.3 billion in arms trades, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates account for a combined total of US$38.2 billion.

    “The purchases by the monarchical regimes in the Arab world stem, on the one hand, from their reaction to the popular upheavals that were dubbed the “Arab Spring” and, on the other, from the buildup by the US and its allies for another war, this time against Iran.”

    http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/aug2012/pers-a30.shtml
14. captain hook 14

    31 August 2012 at 12:14 pm

    closer to home I listened to Chrtis Trotter yesterday express grave doubts about the constitutional advisory panel.googled it this morning and it
    looks like they are going to try and dream one up of their own and then foist it on us with a bit of consultation at the end of their deliberations just to make it look good.
    corporatist authoritarian post modernism at its worst.
    • fnjckg 14.1

      31 August 2012 at 7:17 pm

      too much!
15. TheContrarian 15

    31 August 2012 at 2:20 pm

    just about to listen to Mitt Romney address the RNC. After listening to that snake Ryan yesterday I am looking forward to hearing Romney lie to me also.
    • Rosie 15.1

      31 August 2012 at 3:30 pm

      After that you will need a laugh. Get over to Pundit Kitchen for some low brow humour. It’s Mittens galore

      http://roflrazzi.cheezburger.com/news
    • joe90 15.2

      31 August 2012 at 4:09 pm

      Here’s the transcript of Eastwood’s speech, WTF?.
      • TheContrarian 15.2.1

        31 August 2012 at 4:11 pm

        Yeah, that was really bizarre. He interviewed an empty chair.
      • joe90 15.2.2

        31 August 2012 at 4:27 pm

        #Eastwooding.

        edit: Obama Eastwooding.
      • joe90 15.2.3

        31 August 2012 at 4:52 pm

        http://www.salon.com/2012/08/31/clint_eastwood_tells_chair_to_get_out_of_afghanistan/
      • joe90 15.2.4

        31 August 2012 at 5:01 pm

        http://twitter.com/BarackObama/status/241392153148915712/photo/1
      • Ianmac from Vietnam 15.2.5

        31 August 2012 at 6:08 pm

        I am confused. Did Eastwood give the speech to the Republicans or was it a spoof? Either way it is fun and or serious.
        • Ianmac from Vietnam 15.2.5.1

          31 August 2012 at 7:16 pm

          Oh. OK. Washington Post wouldn’t make it up.
          The underlying message though is “Beware of those who make great promises. They all do that but only a few actually intend to action let alone actually achieve what they promised.”
      • Morrissey 15.2.6

        1 September 2012 at 6:51 pm

        Here’s the transcript of Eastwood’s speech, WTF?.

        Watching his gruesome performance, it is clear that the doddering Eastwood has pretty much lost his marbles. However, whoever wrote his lines for him did insert some provocations that need to be addressed. I’ll deal with just the most idiotic of them….

        You know they are all left wingers out there, left of Lenin.

        “Left of Lenin”? Clearly Eastwood’s script-writer knows nothing about Lenin’s politics. Lenin’s utter contempt for democracy has far more in common with the braindead flag-wavers in that convention hall than it does with any Hollywood “liberals”.

        OK, I thought maybe it was just because somebody had the stupid idea of trying terrorists in downtown New York City.

        Eastwood clearly doesn’t have a clue, and could not care less, but surely his scriptwriter (David Frum? Donald Trump? Gerry Seinfeld?) knows that many, perhaps most, of the captives in Guantanamo Bay are not terrorists. They are captives, illegally held without charges in defiance of international law. Not that Clint Eastwood or the zombies in the audience would care, of course.

        Of course we all now Biden is the intellect of the Democratic party.

        (LAUGHTER)

        Kind of a grin with a body behind it.

        (LAUGHTER)

        Whoever wrote those unfunny quips was pretty cheeky to write them for someone best summed up as a scowl with a body behind it.
16. Rosie 16

    31 August 2012 at 3:28 pm

    Earlier on in the week yeshe posted a link to a herald article about a govt funded gene technology agri business meeting going on with all the big players from the various bio tech companies. We had a bit of a chat about it.

    Check out this:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/7583448/Luddite-approach-to-GE-hampering-NZ-Inc

    Gee. I wonder if they sat around the table and said “theres a bit of an image problem with introducing GE food crops to NZ, what shall we do?” “I know, we’ll get our buddies at Fearfux to write some pro GE PR material and label those who oppose it ‘luddites’ to make them look bad”
    • Draco T Bastard 16.1

      31 August 2012 at 6:12 pm

      I think that article translates to: All these other countries are doing it and so we should to despite the fact that some of our largest markets (the EU) is predominantly against GMO and the fact that using natural plants doesn’t come with a patent cost. Also the fact that research is showing that GMO crops aren’t as good as advertised either.
17. Jackal 17

    31 August 2012 at 6:39 pm

    Raoul Neave – Asshole of the Week

    Unfortunately this kind of corrupt judgement makes people lose all faith in the justice system as it clearly shows there’s one law for the rich and another for the rest of us…
    • Vicky32 17.1

      1 September 2012 at 2:26 am

      Unfortunately this kind of corrupt judgement makes people lose all faith in the justice system as it clearly shows there’s one law for the rich and another for the rest of us…

      Absolutely! I read the account in the Herald – what a disgusting man – did he have no idea how he sounded?
      • Jackal 17.1.1

        1 September 2012 at 9:42 am

        An eye witness has also come out and slammed the idiot judge. I really do hope Kim takes up Dr Michael Kidd’s offer to appeal Raoul Neave’s decision. What a travesty of justice.
        • Dv 17.1.1.1

          1 September 2012 at 10:46 am

          AND Findlayson has been VERY critical of a QC who thought the sentence was rubbish too.
          http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/outraged-finlayson-says-judge-critic-tony-molloy-should-quit-qc-rank
    • North 17.2

      1 September 2012 at 10:29 am

      Am I to understand that Hallwright was the victim here ??????
      • North 17.2.1

        1 September 2012 at 10:39 am

        The Sensible Sentencing Trust is strangely quiet…….lost your tongue McVicar ?
      • felix 17.2.2

        1 September 2012 at 10:52 am

        Hallright the victim? No, but the judge would like you to think so.
18. fnjckg 18

    31 August 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Wolfhart Pannenberg. now there is an interesting man
19. joe90 19

    31 August 2012 at 10:36 pm

    Upsetting .

    http://alturl.com/wa59i
    • fnjckg 19.1

      1 September 2012 at 10:16 am

      all ways
20. Colonial Viper 20

    31 August 2012 at 11:33 pm

    Jean Luc says…frak you , Apple

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rAtje5weAU0
    • fnjckg 20.1

      1 September 2012 at 10:21 am

      “Apple” not by chance

      “What business are u in?…This is the apple-pickin business massah.”-Irving (paraphr.)

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