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	<title>Comments on: Players only love you when they&#8217;re playing</title>
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	<description>The New Zealand labour movement used to have its own newspaper. A group of us thought that now might be a good time for it to be digitally reborn: The Standard v2.0 - now in a new format The Standard v3.0</description>
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		<title>By: sk</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177555</link>
		<dc:creator>sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 07:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177555</guid>
		<description>Mr Ellis,

You clearly like the last say, but on this occasion that is not appropriate. So here goes;

My initial comment was that JK is perceived as a lightweight in global circles. This comment was based on feedback from Asia that in official meetings Mr Key is perceived as likeable, but with surprising gaps in his knowledge and understanding. Moreover, he is inclined to talk up things - such as the FTA with Japan - that he has no basis to do so from the content of the meetings. Mr Key relies on MFAT advice - which while doing an admirable job - is largely under-resourced. 

The light schedule at APEC and CHOGM is at it stands. The problem NZ faces is the advent of G20, which is given considerable import in Asia - and has effectively bifircated Asia. This gives India, Indonesia, and Korea greater import. JK can meet SM Lee as many times as he likes, but Singapore is not a member of G20.

For NZ to punch above its insignificant weight, it is going to take a multilayered approach, such as formal bilaterals, informal meetings, and other ministers such as Bill English travelling to APEC (but JK does not want to share the limelight). There is no sign that this is happening. 

Foreign policy is presented by the NZ media as a real success for JK, but the reality is a lot more complicated. 

I think this represents a reasonable grasp of the facts. Good day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Ellis,</p>
<p>You clearly like the last say, but on this occasion that is not appropriate. So here goes;</p>
<p>My initial comment was that JK is perceived as a lightweight in global circles. This comment was based on feedback from Asia that in official meetings Mr Key is perceived as likeable, but with surprising gaps in his knowledge and understanding. Moreover, he is inclined to talk up things &#8211; such as the FTA with Japan &#8211; that he has no basis to do so from the content of the meetings. Mr Key relies on MFAT advice &#8211; which while doing an admirable job &#8211; is largely under-resourced. </p>
<p>The light schedule at APEC and CHOGM is at it stands. The problem NZ faces is the advent of G20, which is given considerable import in Asia &#8211; and has effectively bifircated Asia. This gives India, Indonesia, and Korea greater import. JK can meet SM Lee as many times as he likes, but Singapore is not a member of G20.</p>
<p>For NZ to punch above its insignificant weight, it is going to take a multilayered approach, such as formal bilaterals, informal meetings, and other ministers such as Bill English travelling to APEC (but JK does not want to share the limelight). There is no sign that this is happening. </p>
<p>Foreign policy is presented by the NZ media as a real success for JK, but the reality is a lot more complicated. </p>
<p>I think this represents a reasonable grasp of the facts. Good day.</p>
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		<title>By: tsmithfield</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177450</link>
		<dc:creator>tsmithfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177450</guid>
		<description>Those refered to as denialists generally do not disagree with the concept of climate change or that human-emitted C02 has an effect, or that the temperature has been warming. This is fairly clear science that most would agree with. 

However, where there is considerable disagreement and skepticism is in the area of climate sensitivity to secondary forcings arising from clouds etc. Thus, the angst thrown at skeptics IMO is misplaced, as the areas in which there is disagreement is where, even strong AGW proponents would agree that there is a lot of unknowns and uncertainty. 

I am neutral on the above as I don&#039;t consider myself qualified to form an opinion.

IMO, however, given the uncertainty surrounding the effectiveness or otherwise of an ETS, and the large gaps in knowledge that exist with respect to secondary forcings, it is better to focus on immediate problems that will also have major impacts on C02 emissions rather than waste resources on costly schemes that may not work anyway.. 

For instance, peak oil will probably address the emissions problem fairly quickly due to the forced necessity for green technologies. Focusing on initiatives such as enabling  poor farmers to develop nature reserves to earn money from tourism rather than cutting down forests for farming (as has been done successfully in Africa for instance) will simultaneously help save endangered species and increase the amount of green biomass to absorb C02.   

The big advantage of this approach is that it will be much easier to get by-in to solving immediate, obvious problems rather than more uncertain, longterm ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those refered to as denialists generally do not disagree with the concept of climate change or that human-emitted C02 has an effect, or that the temperature has been warming. This is fairly clear science that most would agree with. </p>
<p>However, where there is considerable disagreement and skepticism is in the area of climate sensitivity to secondary forcings arising from clouds etc. Thus, the angst thrown at skeptics IMO is misplaced, as the areas in which there is disagreement is where, even strong AGW proponents would agree that there is a lot of unknowns and uncertainty. </p>
<p>I am neutral on the above as I don&#8217;t consider myself qualified to form an opinion.</p>
<p>IMO, however, given the uncertainty surrounding the effectiveness or otherwise of an ETS, and the large gaps in knowledge that exist with respect to secondary forcings, it is better to focus on immediate problems that will also have major impacts on C02 emissions rather than waste resources on costly schemes that may not work anyway.. </p>
<p>For instance, peak oil will probably address the emissions problem fairly quickly due to the forced necessity for green technologies. Focusing on initiatives such as enabling  poor farmers to develop nature reserves to earn money from tourism rather than cutting down forests for farming (as has been done successfully in Africa for instance) will simultaneously help save endangered species and increase the amount of green biomass to absorb C02.   </p>
<p>The big advantage of this approach is that it will be much easier to get by-in to solving immediate, obvious problems rather than more uncertain, longterm ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Ellis</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177434</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 23:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177434</guid>
		<description>No SK, you haven&#039;t established that Mr Key had a light schedule at CHOGM or APEC at all.  Every claim you&#039;ve made about bilaterals has been shot down.  Now complaining that I have ignored non-foreign policy issues is very weak, too, since it was on foreign policy issues that you were complaining about him, with little grasp of the facts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No SK, you haven&#8217;t established that Mr Key had a light schedule at CHOGM or APEC at all.  Every claim you&#8217;ve made about bilaterals has been shot down.  Now complaining that I have ignored non-foreign policy issues is very weak, too, since it was on foreign policy issues that you were complaining about him, with little grasp of the facts.</p>
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		<title>By: sk</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177424</link>
		<dc:creator>sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177424</guid>
		<description>TE, you twisted it into &quot;who JK has met in the last 12 mths&#039;.  My intial comment was about a light schedule at APEC and CHOGM, which still stands. 

Your effort in shooting me down reflects that if you take away foreign policy from JK&#039;s list of credits, not much is left for the first year. 

We elected a PM, not a Chief Foreign Minister. All your responses have been about protocol, not substance or leadership,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TE, you twisted it into &#8220;who JK has met in the last 12 mths&#8217;.  My intial comment was about a light schedule at APEC and CHOGM, which still stands. </p>
<p>Your effort in shooting me down reflects that if you take away foreign policy from JK&#8217;s list of credits, not much is left for the first year. </p>
<p>We elected a PM, not a Chief Foreign Minister. All your responses have been about protocol, not substance or leadership,</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177422</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177422</guid>
		<description>Pulled some Sex Pistols off the old vinyl at a high bitrate before I consigned them to storage - authentic scratching and all they&#039;re on low priority and tend to get next&#039;ed fast. Picked up more Bush CDs from Amazon to get the complete set because of their frequent playing. It is great for programming. Thanks for pointing them out. But I think that giving you the complete Patti Smith immersion experience probably balanced it out.

I did change your nappies. Did disturbing things to my stomach. True it is something that I avoid. However I was a lot better with you than I was with your sister - practice makes it more tolerable over time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pulled some Sex Pistols off the old vinyl at a high bitrate before I consigned them to storage &#8211; authentic scratching and all they&#8217;re on low priority and tend to get next&#8217;ed fast. Picked up more Bush CDs from Amazon to get the complete set because of their frequent playing. It is great for programming. Thanks for pointing them out. But I think that giving you the complete Patti Smith immersion experience probably balanced it out.</p>
<p>I did change your nappies. Did disturbing things to my stomach. True it is something that I avoid. However I was a lot better with you than I was with your sister &#8211; practice makes it more tolerable over time.</p>
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		<title>By: rocky</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177415</link>
		<dc:creator>rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177415</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I&#039;ve been collecting from long before I had to change your nappies.&lt;/i&gt;

Maybe I should ask mother if you actually ever changed my nappies? Not really a you thing to do!

&lt;i&gt;It has good music and bad music  I even have The Sex Pistols in there. &lt;/i&gt;

The Sex Pistols are in your music collection because I put them there. So was Bush originally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I&#8217;ve been collecting from long before I had to change your nappies.</i></p>
<p>Maybe I should ask mother if you actually ever changed my nappies? Not really a you thing to do!</p>
<p><i>It has good music and bad music  I even have The Sex Pistols in there. </i></p>
<p>The Sex Pistols are in your music collection because I put them there. So was Bush originally.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Ellis</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177414</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177414</guid>
		<description>SK your story keeps changing.  Firstly you said Mr Key wasn&#039;t successful at securing bilaterals with world leaders.  Then you list world leaders with whom Mr Key supposedly hasn&#039;t met.  Then when given evidence of actual meetings Mr Key has had with the world leaders you say he hasn&#039;t met, you change your story again.

Have you got any evidence that Mr Key&#039;s meeting with Mr Li was unsuccessful or produced nothing, or that Mr Key wasn&#039;t briefed in advance, or are you just making up that as well?

There certainly doesn&#039;t seem to be any criticism in the New Zealand media of Mr Key&#039;s meetings with Mr Li.  Perhaps despite your poor command of the facts in every other respect so far you might have struck it lucky with this latest claim, but on current form it&#039;s unlikely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SK your story keeps changing.  Firstly you said Mr Key wasn&#8217;t successful at securing bilaterals with world leaders.  Then you list world leaders with whom Mr Key supposedly hasn&#8217;t met.  Then when given evidence of actual meetings Mr Key has had with the world leaders you say he hasn&#8217;t met, you change your story again.</p>
<p>Have you got any evidence that Mr Key&#8217;s meeting with Mr Li was unsuccessful or produced nothing, or that Mr Key wasn&#8217;t briefed in advance, or are you just making up that as well?</p>
<p>There certainly doesn&#8217;t seem to be any criticism in the New Zealand media of Mr Key&#8217;s meetings with Mr Li.  Perhaps despite your poor command of the facts in every other respect so far you might have struck it lucky with this latest claim, but on current form it&#8217;s unlikely.</p>
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		<title>By: lprent</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177411</link>
		<dc:creator>lprent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177411</guid>
		<description>It is a *large* music collection. I&#039;ve been collecting from long before I had to change your nappies. It has good music and bad music - I even have The Sex Pistols in there. 

But it also has mediocre music as well. :twisted:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a *large* music collection. I&#8217;ve been collecting from long before I had to change your nappies. It has good music and bad music &#8211; I even have The Sex Pistols in there. </p>
<p>But it also has mediocre music as well. <img src='http://thestandard.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif' alt=':twisted:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: sk</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177410</link>
		<dc:creator>sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177410</guid>
		<description>TE, the point is best illustrated by Li Keqiang&#039;s recent visit to Wellington - which given his future role was very signficiant. Now, at press conference beforehand JK was unable to explain why Mr Li\s visit was significant, or  why it mattered. No substance, and no reporting. 

Now go and google who Li Keqiang is, and why he matters. and we can continue this discussion.

The point remains, JK is a lightweight who uses protocol as a crutch. No front-footing here . ..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TE, the point is best illustrated by Li Keqiang&#8217;s recent visit to Wellington &#8211; which given his future role was very signficiant. Now, at press conference beforehand JK was unable to explain why Mr Li\s visit was significant, or  why it mattered. No substance, and no reporting. </p>
<p>Now go and google who Li Keqiang is, and why he matters. and we can continue this discussion.</p>
<p>The point remains, JK is a lightweight who uses protocol as a crutch. No front-footing here . ..</p>
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		<title>By: rocky</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177407</link>
		<dc:creator>rocky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 22:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177407</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But I have to say that both jk and z have appalling taste in music.&lt;/i&gt;

If that&#039;s true then why do you have both Fleetwood Mac and Metallica in your music collection? ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>But I have to say that both jk and z have appalling taste in music.</i></p>
<p>If that&#8217;s true then why do you have both Fleetwood Mac and Metallica in your music collection? <img src='http://thestandard.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: travellerev</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177403</link>
		<dc:creator>travellerev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177403</guid>
		<description>Which is why it&#039;s so strange that &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&amp;aid=16413&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;weather modification&lt;/a&gt; as practiced by Russia, China and the US (and other countries) is not included in the Copenhagen conference.

It should be clear that if China decides to cause &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-11/chinas-weather-manipulation-brings-crippling-snowstorm-beijing&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;snowstorms&lt;/a&gt; in areas hit by droughts to stock up on water, it takes that water away from other areas causing unexplained draughts.

Alternatively if it modifies the weather to not rain on it&#039;s &lt;a&gt;Olympic parade&lt;/a&gt; this will cause rain elsewere.

To give just one example. Another one would be &lt;a href=&#039;http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&amp;aid=319&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;HAARP&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is why it&#8217;s so strange that <a href='http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&amp;aid=16413' rel="nofollow">weather modification</a> as practiced by Russia, China and the US (and other countries) is not included in the Copenhagen conference.</p>
<p>It should be clear that if China decides to cause <a href='http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-11/chinas-weather-manipulation-brings-crippling-snowstorm-beijing' rel="nofollow">snowstorms</a> in areas hit by droughts to stock up on water, it takes that water away from other areas causing unexplained draughts.</p>
<p>Alternatively if it modifies the weather to not rain on it&#8217;s <a>Olympic parade</a> this will cause rain elsewere.</p>
<p>To give just one example. Another one would be <a href='http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&amp;aid=319' rel="nofollow">HAARP</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Pascal's bookie</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177402</link>
		<dc:creator>Pascal's bookie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:54:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177402</guid>
		<description>Why are they the most dangerous?

None of them have the capacity to do much more than deliver handful of bombs a short distance. That&#039;s Pakistan. The others would stuggel to do that much. And that&#039;s just capability, you&#039;d need to show intent.

While horrid obviously, a threat to humanity, it isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why are they the most dangerous?</p>
<p>None of them have the capacity to do much more than deliver handful of bombs a short distance. That&#8217;s Pakistan. The others would stuggel to do that much. And that&#8217;s just capability, you&#8217;d need to show intent.</p>
<p>While horrid obviously, a threat to humanity, it isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: sk</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177398</link>
		<dc:creator>sk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177398</guid>
		<description>protocol, photo, protocol, photo, protocol, photo.

Where&#039;s the beef?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>protocol, photo, protocol, photo, protocol, photo.</p>
<p>Where&#8217;s the beef?</p>
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		<title>By: Stacktwo</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177396</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacktwo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177396</guid>
		<description>&quot;We&#039;re all in the same boat&quot; - I agree.  Far too many cling to this &quot;New Zealand is a nothing&quot; mantra to excuse them from taking responsibility.

It&#039;s like saying that because the West Coast has only 1% of NZ&#039;s population they ought to be allowed to exempt themselves from paying income tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We&#8217;re all in the same boat&#8221; &#8211; I agree.  Far too many cling to this &#8220;New Zealand is a nothing&#8221; mantra to excuse them from taking responsibility.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like saying that because the West Coast has only 1% of NZ&#8217;s population they ought to be allowed to exempt themselves from paying income tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Maggie</title>
		<link>http://thestandard.org.nz/players-only-love-you-when-theyre-playing/comment-page-1/#comment-177393</link>
		<dc:creator>Maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=26958#comment-177393</guid>
		<description>Problem is Key is such a lightweight. Internationally he is an embarrassment and internally he is a joke. When even Fran can&#039;t stick his corn any more the Nats have a problem on their hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Problem is Key is such a lightweight. Internationally he is an embarrassment and internally he is a joke. When even Fran can&#8217;t stick his corn any more the Nats have a problem on their hands.</p>
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