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Polity: Nats’ sanctimony on tactical voting

Written By: - Date published: 5:56 pm, June 16th, 2014 - 34 comments
Categories: blogs, David Farrar, electoral systems, john key, MMP - Tags:

polity_square_for_lynnPoor David Farrar, he can’t write a post without getting accused of hypocrisy these days. It must have to do with that rancid stench he emanates whenever he gets on his high horse to lecture others..  Here is Rob Salmond at Polity.

Here is Hypocrisysmeller Persuivant David Farrar on tactical voting today:

MMP is designed to give voters two votes. It is no surprise voters will vote tactically in a way to maximise the chance of their party making it into Government…

I’ve got no problem with that, but the hypocrisy of denouncing tactical voting as a dirty deal, yet advocating it yourself is, as always, more hypocrisy.

Ha – nice try.

There’s only one political leader out there saying: “Tactical voting is a good idea for my supporters, and long may it continue, but it is a dreadful crime by others.” That leader is John Key.

David Cunliffe’s position is different, and it is one I agree with. Here is his/my position:

  1. The coat-tailing provisions in MMP should go. But if National insists that those are the rules, then we reserve to right to play to the rules, too.
  2. Cup of Tea deals are bad for democracy. But if National insists on doing them, we reserve the right to change our tactics accordingly.
  3. When we win the election, we’ll fix the problems, so New Zealanders will never have to put up with this crap again.

National made the rules. We prefer different rules. For now, we play to their rules. Simple.

If you thought rugby should be a 14-a-side game, but the rules say it is 15-a-side, you’d be a mug not to send out the 15th guy, right? Well that is exactly what National thinks Labour should do, and they reckon sending out the 15th player is despicable! Hypocritical!

With all their sanctimony, National come off as spoiled brats, peeved that the other team also plays to win. There is only one group of hypocrites here. They wear blue.

34 comments on “Polity: Nats’ sanctimony on tactical voting”

  1. srylands 1

    I see the Farrar obsession continues.

    What do you man “National made the rules”? The “rules” of MMP were established 20 years ago. The Government with the greatest longevity during that period was a Labour one.

    The so called “coat tail” provisions are no accident or perversion. They are a deliberate part of the system. They should only be jettisoned with a wide consensus of Parliamentary support. I would advocate a referendum.

    That Labour is saying we will “fix the problems” without such widespread support is abhorent.

    The NZ electorate had the opportunity to move to a rational voting system. They didn’t. Stop whinging. But even worse, stop defending Labour’s threat of unilateral action.

    And lastly stop obsessing with Farrar. It is creepy, like to have a crush on him.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.1

      And I see that you still missed the point.

      I would advocate a referendum.

      We had one.

      That Labour is saying we will “fix the problems” without such widespread support is abhorent.

      They have widespread support. In fact, as far as I can make out, the only people who don’t support the advised changes are the National Party caucus.

      The NZ electorate had the opportunity to move to a rational voting system.

      We have a rational voting system. It needs a few tweaks, which we all agreed on, but other than that it’s fine.

      And lastly stop obsessing with Farrar.

      Well, if DPF is that upset about it perhaps he should stop being a lying hypocrite.

    • dimebag russell 1.2

      wtf srylands. this is politics and fatboy is an actor. he has to take everything that is coming to him.
      if he cant stand the heat he should get out of the kitchen and most of all he should stop lying.
      anyway. who the hell are you to go round telling people what to do?

    • Steve Reeves 1.3

      This piece by srylands really shows very clearly his tactics.

      For example:

      the second paragraph—

      “They should only be jettisoned with a wide consensus of Parliamentary support. I would advocate a referendum.”

      What? Two sentences that have no logical connection, written as though forming an argument. The premise is acceptable to all I guess. But the conclusion???

      So, we have “logically” reached the point that a referendum is apparently required.

      Then the third paragraph—

      “That Labour is saying we will “fix the problems” without such widespread support is abhorrent.”

      So, having “successfully” argued that we need a referendum, we can stand furious that Labour would move without one!

      This is the usual tactic: start with a widely accepted premise. Use a bit of non-logic to arrive at the required conclusion. Use manufactured, and probably false, conclusion to attack Labour.

      We see this tactic used daily by John Key and fellow travellers, and of course Abbott and Cameron.

      Every paragraph of this short piece is constructed or follows in this way. Even the way the first links to the last, as a sort of final trumping of all disagreement:

      “I see the Farrar obsession continues.”–well yes, perhaps you do, who can say?

      “And lastly stop obsessing with Farrar. It is creepy, like to have a crush on him.”—ok, so now your belief has turned into a fact? I think we saw what you did there!

      And finally, of course, having sown the poisonous thoughts, srylands moves on.

    • lprent 1.4

      In case you hadn’t noticed the debate in NZ about it, there was a set of recommendations by the electoral commission in 2013 in their review of possible changes for MMP.

      There were several key recommendations. One was to eliminate coat tailing, another was to drop the threshold, and to eliminate overhangs. There were a number of others.

      http://www.mmpreview.org.nz/sites/default/files/pages/uploads/Final%20Report%202012%20Review%20of%20MMP.pdf

      Essentially Judith Collins dumped all of the ones that might cause National problems with making unholy deals with their coalition parties

      http://thestandard.org.nz/judith-collins-mmp-consensus-democracy/

      Fo no other real reason,as was widely commented on at the time, than to make it easier for National to stitch up a coalition after the forthcoming election

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/john-armstrong-on-politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502865&objectid=11198248

      Which does rather make their paid mouthpieces sanctimonious hypocrisy rather rank.

      Perhaps you should find out something about what you are talking about before sprouting such inane nonsense.

    • Tracey 1.5

      the minister for oravida put the changes in her bin. right next to her and the pms promise to dunne for voting with them on gcsb.

  2. alwyn 2

    You say

    “There’s only one political leader out there saying: “Tactical voting is a good idea for my supporters, and long may it continue, but it is a dreadful crime by others.” That leader is John Key.”

    Can you point me to a reference that shows John Key saying this?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1

      Well spotted, Rob Salmond used quotation marks when in fact he’s paraphrasing. Top marks for English go to Alwyn, who gets a gold star.

      Everyone shake hands with Alwyn and offer your congratulations.

      • alwyn 2.1.1

        Alright my clever little lad.
        Can you perhaps point me to any statement of Key’s for which this even approximately a paraphrase?
        Thought not.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.1.1

          What a fool you are, claiming victory. I suggest you argue the toss with John Armstrong.

          In getting the inevitable “no” from the Prime Minister, Cunliffe still stays on the right side of public opinion, while Key is very much on the wrong side.

          • alwyn 2.1.1.1.1

            Wow! You, or more accurately Polity, really know how to make bricks without straw if this is your “evidence”.

            When we read the first link we find that it is Cunliffe, not Key who approves of coattails for his side but not for his opponents. There is, of course, absolutely nothing in the link that justifies the wild claims made about John Key. All we have is that Key is pointing out that Cunliffe is a hypocrite for the inconsistent, and undemocratic, views he is proposing.

            I asked for any evidence at all that Key, NOT Cunliffe, held such views. We all know that Cunliffe does and your link merely illustrates that. However Polity claimed that that was the way that John Key behaved and you certainly haven’t shown that by this ill-chosen link.

            The second link merely says that Key’s views, consistent though they are, may not be popular. So what? Do you really want to have politicians like David Cunliffe who appear to be unable to give any opinion at all on anything until it has been polled or referred to a focus group?

            Please try harder if you are really arguing in favour of Polity’s claim. Otherwise I suggest you give up. You are fighting a lost cause.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Post election negotiations with voter-mandated allies you’ve done your best to beat are the same as pre-election deals with no-hopers Colin Cray-Cray and Jamie Unclecousin?

              Is that what passes for logic in your amygdala?

              • alwyn

                I see.
                You mean the way that Labour did its very best to win Coromandel in 1999 when it look as if the Greens were going to need an electorate seat? Oh that’s right Labour didn’t try.
                Or the way they put up strong candidates against Anderton over the years? Oh that’s right, Labour didn’t.
                Or, as I suspect is going to happen, the way Kelvin Davis will go missing in action up north against Hone.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  You may well be right, and I note you failed to address the issue as it relates to the present day leadership. Nor did you acknowledge that post-election negotiations are not the same as pre-election deals.

                  Still, I guess everyone’s entitled to salvage a little scrap of pride from the wreckage of their failed argument.

  3. dimebag russell 3

    actions speak louder than words and key is so dysfunctional that he only says what somebody else writes out on a card.

  4. Sacha 4

    “But if National insists that those are the rules, then we reserve [the] right to play to the rules, too.”

    That’s not what Cunliffe said at all. He has promised black and white to ‘not do any deals’ – regardless of whether that means losing to other parties who are doing so. Points for piousness, none for nous.

  5. dimebag russell 5

    first paragraph true.
    second false.
    therefore you lie.

  6. Ad 6

    There’s a great line from Gordon Campbell on Scoop that ‘it’s incredible that Act should preach personal self reliance when they have permanently owed their existence to National’s political social welfare.’

    • Tracey 6.1

      it is a great line.

      3 strikes and you are out

      awatere. fraud
      banks. electoral fraud
      garrett. stealing dead childs identity

      yup. loads of personal responsibility in that party

  7. framu 7

    a big ‘mistake’ farrar is making here is that hes claiming tactical voting – which is done by voters, as being the same thing as making deals, which is done by parties

    they arent, he should know this and i bet he does

    and srylands – your hopelessly wrong, as usual. both in terms of reality and parliamentary process

    “They should only be jettisoned with a wide consensus of Parliamentary support. I would advocate a referendum.” – who votes in a referendum genius? – MPs?

    and when a paid campaigner and muck raker of the nats is running around saying things that mark him as either an idiot or a bullshitter why shouldnt we point it out?

  8. Cancerman 8

    The coat tailing rule shouldn’t be jettisoned. MMP should be truly what we were promised and the 5% treshold should be removed. Threshold should be only the percentaged needed for a seat.

  9. vto 9

    I agree 110% that, even though one may disagree with the rules of the game and want to change them, one must absolutely play by the rules of the game as they stand at any particular time.

    Good on Harre and Cunliffe for standing up to the right wing bullshit and stating exactly that.

    • Sacha 9.1

      “one must absolutely play by the rules of the game as they stand at any particular time”

      Only that’s not what Cunliffe has been saying. Quite the opposite.

  10. Papa Tuanuku 10

    I cringe when i think of the possibility of labour and or the greens helping to get act or dunne back in in ohariu and epsom. so they stand by their principles and stand in the seats, which looses the election for the left. Their principles will not be of any use to people on struggle street who need relief.

    There needs to be a message from green and labour that, as a left win this year is critical for all of us, they will stand down julie ann or gareth or the labour guy in ohariu and epsom. sort it out labour and greens, don’t lose the election for all of us.

  11. Tracey 11

    Touche

    Fraud is not really criminal in ACT. Its getting caught that causes the angst

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    Today the Government is making a the meal out of the launch of its ‘Healthy Families’ package to promote ‘healthier decisions’ and ‘changing mindsets’ over nutrition, physical activity and obesity. Great! The programme is based on a successful model from… ...
    GreensBy Kevin Hague MP
    4 days ago
  • ‘Healthy Families’ a good start but not enough to tackle obesity relate...
    Today the Government is making a the meal out of the launch of its ‘Healthy Families’ package to promote ‘healthier decisions’ and ‘changing mindsets’ over nutrition, physical activity and obesity. Great! The programme is based on a successful model from… ...
    GreensBy Kevin Hague MP
    4 days ago
  • No more sweet talk on obesity
    The Government should be looking at broader measures to combat obesity rather than re-hashing pre-announced initiatives, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says.  “While it is encouraging to see the Government finally waking from its slumber and restoring a focus on… ...
    4 days ago
  • Government two-faced on zero-hour contracts
    The Government should look to ban zero-hour contracts in its own back yard before getting too high and mighty about other employers using them, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says. “Information collated by Labour shows at least three district health… ...
    4 days ago
  • Scrutiny of battlefield deaths should continue
    As New Zealand troops head to Iraq under a shroud of secrecy, the Government is pushing ahead with legislation to remove independent scrutiny of incidents where Kiwi soldiers are killed in hostile action overseas, Labour’s Defence spokesperson Phil Goff says.… ...
    4 days ago
  • Damp-free homes a right for tenants
    Labour is urging tenants to use a little known rule which gives them the right to live in damp-free rental homes. Otago University researchers have today highlighted the Housing Improvement Regulations 1947 as a way tenants can force landlords to… ...
    5 days ago
  • National must take action on speculators
    The Government must take action on property speculators who are damaging the housing market and shutting families and young people out of the home ownership dream, Labour Leader Andrew Little says.  “There are a number of options the Government could… ...
    5 days ago
  • Milk price halves: A $7b economic black hole
    Global milk prices have halved since the peak last year, creating an economic black hole of almost $7 billion that will suck in regions reliant on dairy, crucial industries and the Government’s books, says Labour’s Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson. “The… ...
    5 days ago
  • Kitchen plan set to swallow up health boards’ funds
    The financial impacts of implementing a proposal to outsource hospital food, forced on them by a crown-owned company which is now facing an auditor-general’s inquiry, are being felt by district health boards across the country, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King… ...
    6 days ago
  • Reserve Bank scathing of Government
    The Reserve Bank’s most scathing critique to date of National’s inability to handle the housing crisis shows the Bank is sick of having to pick up the pieces, Labour Leader Andrew Little says.  “John Key continues to deny there is… ...
    6 days ago
  • Time for McDonald’s to upsize work hours
    Labour is calling on McDonald’s to have more respect for their workers and offer them more guaranteed work hours. McDonald’s is proposing to guarantee its workers 80 per cent of their rostered hours, Labour’s spokesperson for Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway… ...
    6 days ago
  • Brownlee misses the boat on asbestos
    Gerry Brownlee has once again missed an opportunity to improve the lives of Cantabrians post-earthquakes, Labour’s Canterbury Earthquake Recovery spokesperson Ruth Dyson says. A new report from the Royal Society of New Zealand and the Prime Minister’s Chief Science Adviser,… ...
    6 days ago
  • Government must come clean on troop deployment and protections
    New Zealanders deserve more than to hear about their troops’ deployment overseas from Australian media, Opposition Leader Andrew Little says. “News from Australia that Kiwi troops are on their way to Iraq this week is another example of the culture… ...
    6 days ago
  • Cancer prevention calls gain momentum
    Research showing bowel cancer treatment sucks up more public health dollars than other cancers once again highlights the need for a national screening programme, Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King says. A study by Otago University, which found colon cancer is… ...
    6 days ago
  • Burger King shows zero-hour contracts not needed
    The abandonment of zero-hour contracts by Burger King is further evidence good employers do not need to use them, Labour’s spokesperson on Labour Issues Iain Lees-Galloway says. "Congratulations to the Unite Union and Burger King for settling an employment agreement… ...
    7 days ago
  • Kiwis deserve more than reheats
    The Government looks set to rely on regurgitated announcements for this year’s Budget if today’s speech is anything to go by, Labour Leader Andrew Little says. “National has been building up to this Budget for seven long years, promising a… ...
    7 days ago
  • Landlords not cashing in on insulation schemes
    The fact so few landlords have taken up the generous taxpayer subsidy for retrofitting shows it is time to legislate minimum standards, says Labour’s Associate Housing spokesperson Poto Williams. “Many landlords aren’t using Government insulation schemes because they don’t want… ...
    1 week ago
  • Zero excuses, end zero hour contracts now
    It’s time Workplace Relations Minister Michael Woodhouse cut the weasel words and banned zero hour contracts, Labour Leader Andrew Little says. “Michael Woodhouse today acknowledged zero hour contracts are unfair. ...
    1 week ago
  • We’ve reached Peak Key with ‘artificial target’
    John Key’s attempt to redefine his cornerstone promise of two election campaigns as an artificial target suggests his other promises are works of fiction, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “For seven years and two election campaigns, John Key has… ...
    1 week ago
  • Top 10 need to know facts on climate change
    All the numbers and stats around climate change can be confusing, so we’ve put together a handy list of the top 10 numbers about climate change that we should all know- and then do something about. You can sign up here to… ...
    GreensBy Frog
    2 weeks ago
  • Campbell Live a bastion of investigative journalism
    The announcement that current affairs programme Campbell Live is under review and may be axed has sparked outrage from the New Zealand public, for good reason, says Labour’s Broadcasting Spokesperson Clare Curran. “Investigative journalism is a precious resource in today’s… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Ground Zero for ‘disastrous’ contracts
    Yesterday the Green Party called on the Government to follow the leadership of Restaurant Brands and ditch zero-hour contracts. Currently it looks like the Government is a large part of the zero-hours problem. It allows these types of “non-jobs” to… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Trust in National will disappear with deficit
    Bill English is set to break his promise to get the books back in the black this year and lose the trust of Kiwis who have had to do it too hard for too long, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Dorothy Jelicich passes away
    It is with sincere sadness that the Labour Party conveys its sympathies and condolences to the bereaved family of Dorothy Jelicich who passed away last night at the age of 87 years, says the MP for Mangere, Su’a William Sio.… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Government leaves aquaculture industry at sea
    If the Government had acted in its first term, the Sanford mussel processing plant would not have to close, says Labour’s Fisheries spokesperson Rino Tirikatene. “Sanford is considering closure after a decline in the natural supply of spat. This is… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Maggie –it’s time to roll your sleeves up
      It’s time for the Minister of Conservation Maggie Barry to listen to the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment  and start untangling the mess around  New Zealand’s stewardship land, says Labour’s Conservation spokesperson Ruth Dyson.  “The Commissioner has called for… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Gutting of prison jobs a gift to private prison provider
    Today’s announcement that sections of three prisons are to be closed is the thin end of the wedge for the privatisation of the country’s prison service, says Labour’s  Corrections spokesperson Kelvin Davis.  It's estimated that 260 prison officers will lose… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Joyce must rule out revising export target
    Steven Joyce must rule out a second revision of the Government’s export target in six months and stop trying to massage statistics when he fails to meet his goals, says Labour’s Economic Development spokesperson David Clark. “National set a target… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Caregiver law passed in haste now a fail
    The Government’s response to supporting family caregivers is mean spirited and designed to fail, says Labour’s Disability Issues Spokesperson Ruth Dyson.  “Figures released by the Ministry of Health show that only a tiny percentage of the eligible families have applied… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Clear message handed to nuclear states
    MPs Phil Goff, Shane Reti and Marama Fox are due to meet with diplomats from the United Kingdom, Russia, the United States, China and France tomorrow to hand deliver a letter calling for their countries to disarm their nuclear weapons.… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Parity is no party for export businesses
    The extent of the damage done by the high dollar to New Zealand businesses is larger than many think as shown by a dramatic decrease in exports to Australia as our dollar rises, Labour Leader Andrew Little says. “When the… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Nats’ limited thinking stifling innovation
    Businesses trying to innovate and create better products are being let down by this Government with an industry expert saying Steven Joyce’s mini-tax credits will have almost no impact, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson. “Andrew Dickeson, director of taxation… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Vanishing Nature: A must-read for all New Zealanders
    The Environmental Defence Society’s new book Vanishing Nature – facing New Zealand’s biodiversity crisis, should be read by every New Zealander concerned about our native plants and wildlife and striking natural landscapes; and particularly by Government Ministers before Budget Day… ...
    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    2 weeks ago
  • The CYF review – an exercise in predetermination?
    Child Youth and Family (CYF) has a troublesome history of underperformance and botched care and protection cases, the most recent being its abject failure, along with the Police, to address the Roastbusters sexual abuse allegations with any semblance of professionalism.… ...
    GreensBy Metiria Turei MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Time to act to protect Hector’s Dolphins
    The death of a Hector’s Dolphin in a set net must lead to action from the Minister of Conservation, Ruth Dyson, Labour’s Conservation Spokesperson said today. “Despite the fact that the Akaroa Harbour has been a Marine Mammal Sanctuary since… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Double-laning Darby and Joan disputed
    The Prime Minister’s by-election promise to double lane the road between Northland’s iconic Darby and Joan kauri trees has been contradicted by officials, Labour’s spokesperson Phil Twyford says. The NZ Transport Agency has told a media outlet that not all… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Parity: Cheaper trips but lower incomes
    The Kiwi dollar’s near-parity with the Australian means some tourists will have cheaper Gold Coast holidays but New Zealand incomes will stay lower for longer, making it harder for many to afford the trip, says Labour’s Finance spokesperson Grant Robertson.… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • English’s state house flog off plans exposed
    Labour is calling on Bill English to confirm or deny a claim the Government is exploring a mass sell-off of state housing to tenants. Property magnate Bob Jones writes in a newspaper column published today that the Minister responsible for… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Extension of work scheme urged for disaster relief
    The Government is being urged to extend the Regional Seasonal Employment (RSE) scheme to help families in the most severely-damaged islands of Vanuatu, following Cyclone Pam. “Allowing a further 300 people to take up seasonal employment in New Zealand under… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Nuclear deal with Iran should be just the start
    A deal struck by Iran and major powers to ensure the Iranian facilities producing nuclear material are not used for the purpose of constructing nuclear weapons has been a long time coming, Labour’s Disarmament spokesperson Phil Goff says. “Undoubtedly Iran’s… ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Green Aoraki Newsletter March 2015
    Attachmentsmarch2015_web.pdf - 1.4 MB ...
    3 weeks ago

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