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Right wing bigot pines for days of right wing bigotry

Written By: - Date published: 10:42 am, September 22nd, 2012 - 180 comments
Categories: Media - Tags: , ,

John Roughan has a whinge about Campbell Live’s coverage of the Christchurch school closures in today’s Herald.

Poor John pines for the days when Paul Holmes was broadcasting rightwing bullsh*t nationwide every evening.

How I miss Paul Holmes. He had the rare ability to empathise with everyone, the powerful and powerless. He saw them all as the well-intentioned people they are as they grapple with problems

This is the Paul Holmes that has railed against workers trying to defend their jobs and has come out with some of the most cringe-worthy tory-charity shlock I have ever watched. Roughan sneers at journalists who “side with people against power” and calls feeding hungry kids for $4 million a year a “costly triumph” for interventionist journalism.

Normally I wouldn’t comment on this kind of curmudgeonly trash but there’s a pattern forming of old right-wing journos who made their names in the eighties and nineties lashing out against other younger journalists and commentators.

We’ve seen it in John Armstrong’s attacks on Bryce Edwards and Gordon Campbell and we’ve seen it in the dozens of desperate attacks on the blogs by these old dinosaurs. Most notably in Fran O’Sullivan’s fascist call that Standard authors should lose their jobs.

Well I’ve got news for these soon-to-be-hasbeens. The voodoo economics you made your names cheer-leading for are discredited and your heyday is well and truly over (no matter how hard this tired government tries to bring it back). In a few more years you’ll be as relevant as Garth George. And Gordon Campbell and Bryce Edwards and John Campbell will still be here. And so will we.

But keep up the public squirming. It’s very entertaining…

180 comments on “Right wing bigot pines for days of right wing bigotry”

  1. mike e 1

    Campbell is calling to account bad policy decisions and the publics reaction!
    Holmes would be crawling up to Parata and writing off the public outcry!

  2. r0b 2

    So John’s hero is Paul “cheeky darkie” Holmes. Paul Homes the great uniter. Explains a lot.

    • Morrissey 2.1

      Roughan must really HATE the new and stratospherically improved Q+A on TV One.

      This morning I watched Shane Taurima make the Rt. Hon. Paula Bennett perspire with anxiety as he refused to let her evade his questions, and then later in the programme he reduced “Sir” Roger Douglas to a frothing display of incoherence.

      Even better was the sight of Nicky Hager (!!!!!!??!?!?) and Prof. Raymond Miller challenging and disputing every cliché uttered by the floundering former National minister Paul East, who was reduced to a petulant, baffled sulk.

      Holmes—GONE. Therese Arseneau—GONE. Michelle Boag—GONE. Q+A finally has some moral fibre and a bit of intellectual heft. Things are looking up.

      The situation at the BBC, however, is altogether more depressing. Did anyone hear the egregious right wing rant posing as a Reith Lecture this afternoon?

      • Populuxe1 2.1.1

        Niall Ferguson might be a prat, but the BBC is dedicated to balanced coverage of viewpoints, as amply evidenced by previous left-wing Reith lecturers. That’s freedom of speech for you.

        • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1

          The cheering on of the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war put me off the BBC somewhat. As was their coverage of the riots in the UK where they tended to take the view of the 1% in charge.

          • Populuxe1 2.1.1.1.1

            I demand that you cite reliable evidence that they took an unjustifiable stance on anything. I am open to verifiable evidence, not your subjective POV.

            • Colonial Viper 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Oh frak off. “Demand” lol. Who do you believe you are, Mr Self Proclaimed “OPen Minded” Editor-Judge Supreme.

              • Populuxe1

                Yeah, that’s pretty much your attitude in a nutshell CV – “This is my opinion. You must believe it as fact or you are an idiot. No I don’t have to substantiate it because I say so” !

                • Colonial Viper

                  Actually, my opinion is that I do not work for you or report to you, and that you are in no position to “demand” jack shit.

                  By the way, please read what I actually wrote, because I think your reading comprehension is way off:

                  The cheering on of the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war put me off the BBC somewhat.

                  That’s a description of my opinion and reaction, in case you didn’t notice.

                  • Populuxe1

                    Funny that, I don’t remember much cheering. Perchance you mean reporting on military successes :D and failures :’( – I seem to recall a lot of that. I believe they call it journalism.
                    No need to have a hissyfit, CV, but your opinions are subjective and mean “jack shit” (what a quaintly gung-ho Americanism) in the broader scheme of things. Why the allergy to evidence?

              • Jokerman

                even my Lord acknowledged in the gospels that gods had been raised up amongst men
                (judges) a round here anyway, lprent, CV, DTB and many others are amongst them
                Been wanting to articulate that since i began following your thought processes nearly a year ago. Thanks ;)

                • Colonial Viper

                  Too much credit mate, just figured there must be some way out of here, and it’s nice to have good people here at The Standard helping suggest the way ahead.

        • Morrissey 2.1.1.2

          Niall Ferguson might be a prat,

          “Might be” a prat? “Might be”?

          but the BBC is dedicated to balanced coverage of viewpoints,

          That’s not true. You need to watch and listen to the BBC a bit more often, and a lot more carefully.

          as amply evidenced by previous left-wing Reith lecturers.

          When did you hear a Reith Lecture series as partisan as this one? In his first lecture, Ferguson went out of his way to praise the boldness and vision of…. (wait for it)…David Cameron and George Osborne.

          That’s freedom of speech for you.

          That’s the state-controlled BBC for you.

          • Populuxe1 2.1.1.2.1

            I think you mean you want me to listen to the BBC through a certain set of ideological prejudices rather than impartially – which is what “listen more carefully” usually means. And as for partisan Reith lecturers with various tubs to thump, take your pick:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Reith_Lectures

            • Morrissey 2.1.1.2.1.1

              I think you mean you want me to listen to the BBC through a certain set of ideological prejudices rather than impartially – which is what “listen more carefully” usually means.

              Well, you think wrong—yet again.

              More to the point, you have not answered the question I gave you, viz., which of the commentators on that list was as partisan as Ferguson?

              And here’s another one for you: which one of the other Reith lecturers was as intellectually threadbare as Niall Ferguson?

          • Herodotus 2.1.1.2.2

            I found his 2 doco’s that I have viewed on the history channel both entertaining and informative: Accent of Money and War of the World
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson

      • joe90 2.1.2

        Did anyone hear the egregious right wing rant posing as a Reith Lecture this afternoon?

        No. Same old fantasy?.

        http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/08/a-full-fact-check-of-niall-fergusons-very-bad-argument-against-obama/261306/

        • Morrissey 2.1.2.1

          Same old fantasy?

          Same old right wing cant, I’m afraid. Ferguson set the moral and intellectual standard of the series in Lecture No. 1, when he saw fit to praise David Cameron and George Osborne.

          At the fourth and last lecture, in Glasgow, he suffered the indignity of open derision and laughter from the audience. That embarrassment no doubt contributed to his truculent tone.

          • Populuxe1 2.1.2.1.1

            I never said he wasn’t a twit, a prat, and/or a buffoon, but it was kind of the BBC to let him be so in public because I needed the laugh. I did think, however, he made one or two valid points in his London lecture about Common Law and Civil Law, even if he largely ruined it with the rest of his nonsense and was rightly Pwned by the questioners at the end.

  3. Chris 3

    John Roughan is a weak end Herald columnist.What makes him think that the nats have a plan or an economic reason for what they are doing in Christchurch. Nothing they do seems to make much sense. We just get hammered on a daily basis with the latest recommendations of Moombeam,resident cat on Planet key.It’s tiring.Also, do you think that wizzkey makes a point of never reading anything BECAUSE HE CAN’T READ? Just wondered.

    • OneTrack 3.1

      Chris, the point is Campbell didn’t even ask to find out. Potentially he could have explained what the plan is, maybe let Brownlee have a go, and then ripped it to shreds. But, no, the “news” component just got skipped over and straight to the emotion. Frankly, the rwnj in me wonders if maybe he did find out what the plan was, decided it was a good plan that he couldnt pull to bits, so he just suppressed the information.

      Actually, no, thats not it – he’s just incompetent as a journalist. Journolist – yep.

    • Jackal 3.2

      Chris

      Also, do you think that wizzkey makes a point of never reading anything BECAUSE HE CAN’T READ? Just wondered.

      Unlikely! In my opinion it’s a willful decision on Shonkey’s part not to read in order to be able to give an excuse, no matter how tenuous that excuse might be, it’s better than no excuse at all.

      It’s also not a decision much of our current media has made to just side against the powers that be.

      It’s wrong to think that the decision to side against the wrong type of power that’s currently leading New Zealand into all the wrong places is a mistake… People are justifiably siding against National’s neoliberal agenda whether they’re media or general public because they know it’s wrong!

      Have you noticed that the commentary on politically unassociated blogs is actually working to change things? That’s because the belief the rightwing propagandists have in their Führer is weak and floundering… They themselves invaribly don’t believe the bullshit spouted by the rightwing propagandists.

      It’s interesting Zetetic that Roughan expects people to pine for the good old days of unanswered propaganda, playing upon our sympathy for Holmes having a heart attack in order to justify his bullshit, while the people are suffering one of the worst governments New Zealand has ever faced… A government that has gained power largely due to Holmes’ lies.

      In my opinion, the tory propagandists have had their day and good riddance to them.

    • Vicky32 3.3

      John Roughan is a weak end Herald columnist

      Your spelling error is perfectly apt! He is indeed weak, and it’s time for his column to come to an end… :)

  4. weka 4

    That Fran link is broken…

    [fixed - r0b]

  5. ianmac 5

    I did comment on this item from Roughan. But no comments have been published so far.
    In short I asked him if the questions about the reasons/justifications for school closures should be asked. If none of the people concerned, (the school BOT, staff nor the Ministry, ) know why, shouldn’t Roughan find out? Campbell and Katherine and Geoff have asked but the answers are not forthcoming.
    And considering that a lot of ordinary folk will be seriously affected,John Campbell should keep looking. Please do not involve that Holmes fellow. He should retire to an old folks home.

    • Dr Terry 5.1

      Please do not wish Holmes off to an old folks home. We should not be punishing our older people like that.

  6. PJ 6

    Comment that I tried to post at 9am, not up by now, I guess they didn’t like it.

    “About as one-sided as you, John Armstrong and Fran O’Sullivan. Oh look, I can do it too”

    • ianmac 6.1

      Just checked and my post is not up either. Wonder if they really only choose the ones critical of Campbell Live? A bit mean say I!

  7. tc 7

    Tv3 seems to grow a pair now and again, it’s a smart play as their target demographic is the generation that distrusts the holmes, roughans etc with good reason.

    Granny is screwed she just doesn’t know it yet like fairfax is as the vultures circle it to rescue their hometown daily papers. I find their new look with the likes of Darby and wells pretty desparate, lightweight and mostly more lipstick on the biased right wing pig of a daily it is.

  8. Paul 8

    I just don’t see how the Herald can lecture about biased media.

  9. Jokerman 9

    checked the link to F.O; man, these professionals sure get their knickers in a knot.
    They appear to enjoy being paid to dish out personal, political, social, environmental and economic criticism, but very fragile when receiving feedback.

    personally, i watched F.O on tele opinion shows a couple of times and it turned me Right off.

    and, growing up with Paul dominating the prime-time just left me feeling embarrased about our national narrative
    yet,
    he appears more humble now

    Now Campbell? there is a man whose star is in ascendency. Good on you John!

    • RedLogix 9.1

      They appear to enjoy being paid to dish out personal, political, social, environmental and economic criticism, but very fragile when receiving feedback.

      It’s a feature of right wingers. Ever keen to dish it out, not so much being on the receiving end. Not very good at all.

      But you’ve hit the nail on the head. The Fran O’Sullivan’s of this world are PAID by big powerful entities like the Herald to have opinions. They have a ready-made bully platform, legal teams and protection if it goes wrong and deepish pockets to defend themselves with.

      The authors here by contrast are for the most very ordinary working people with zilch .. nothing… with which to defend themselves. Yet Fran openly calls for us to ‘lose our jobs’. This tells you all you really need to know about her.

      Hoich sput.

  10. Jokerman 10

    btw, what is so ‘professional”about all the invective on WO and KB?

    Do these people not realise that people of all cultures around the world can read this nonsense?

    What sort of immigration is encouraged to a sewer?

  11. OneTrack 11

    Alright, I’ll say it – Campbell is a left-wing nut job who wouldn’t know a journalist if he fell over one (not that there are many to find in NZ).

    All his stories are strangely negative to any centre to centre-right parties, but the Greens, Mana and some elements of Labour get a free ride, if not glowing endorsement. I guess he is counting on being rewarded after the revolution.

    Nb This post and comments supporting Campbell virtually proves the point – you all like what he tells you and woe betide John Roughan suggesting he is really useless at his job (that obviously depends on what his job actually is – informing the public, asking real questions, nah, thats not it)

    • quartz 11.1

      I give this comment 15 out of a possible 327.

      • OneTrack 11.1.1

        Damn. I’m going for zero. Almost there though. The next one should do it.

        • quartz 11.1.1.1

          I give this comment 8 out of a possible eleven. Although OneTrack has difficulty following simple arguments he has recently started to show a degree of self-awareness that may lead to him developing greater critical faculties with time.

          However he needs to recognise that his continual attempts to disrupt other commenters with nonsensical ejaculations hinder his own learning more than that of others.

          • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.1.1

            attempts to disrupt other commenters with nonsensical ejaculations

            I’m sure you mean “nonsensical interjections”. Right? :cool:

            • OneTrack 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Even I was too polite to point that one out :-)

            • Anne 11.1.1.1.1.2

              Didn’t a certain Richard Worth make the same mistake in answer to a parliamentary question umm… shortly before he resigned.

              Edit: oh no, it was the other one wot also starts with ‘e’. :D

            • quartz 11.1.1.1.1.3

              e·jac·u·late (-jky-lt)
              v. e·jac·u·lat·ed, e·jac·u·lat·ing, e·jac·u·lates
              v.tr.
              1. To eject or discharge abruptly, especially to discharge (semen) in orgasm.
              2. To utter suddenly and passionately; exclaim.

  12. captain hook 12

    sounds like its your turn next roughan.

  13. lefty 13

    The media elite of the likes of Paul Holmes, Bill Ralston, Fran O’Sullivan, Jim Mora , John Armstrong, John Roughan and Sean Plunkett all played an important part in promoting the sick neo liberal revolution this country has been through in the last thirty years.

    For many years these self serving hacks have brought us right wing spin under the guise of journalism.

    They are masters at making obscene greed,stupidity and prejudice seem economically reasonable and ethically acceptable.

    They, and others like them, played a major part in facilitating and legitimising the theft of many of our state owned assetts, the diminishing of our democracy and the dumbing down of public discourse.

    They have collaborated with a small ruling class to replace a culture that was proud of its egalitarian aspirations (even if they were not achieved) with one that puts a few worthless greedy and rich scumbags on a pedestal.

    They have become very wealthy in the process.

    As new internet based media has given fresh and opposing views a voice the increasingly senile ramblings of the old elite have become just too far removed from reality to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain.

    They are reaching the end of their use by date and history will judge them harshly.

    Future generations will gag at the mention of their names.

    No wonder they are upset.

    • OneTrack 13.1

      Are they enemies of the people? Will they be first up against the wall when the revolution comes?

      • RedLogix 13.1.1

        What revolution One Track?

        I’m thinking that they’ll be fairly safe from a Labour-led govt. (Despite the fact that these same hacks will strive their utmost to betray it.)

        • OneTrack 13.1.1.1

          Ok. What about a Green-Mana-Labour government? Labour drives me to despair at the moment but at least they would be better than either of the other two. The problem is that at the moment, the only option going seems to be a three-headed hydra and I cant yet even imagine what that will mean in practice.

          • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1

            The current government isn’t a three-headed hydra. It’s got one head and a couple of pricks.

            • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1.1.1

              And some klingons – don’t forget the klingons.

            • felix 13.1.1.1.1.2

              “the only option going seems to be a three-headed hydra and I cant yet even imagine what that will mean in practice.”

              You must have a terrible time imagining how the current 4-or-5-headed hydra functions in practice then OneCell.

          • Populuxe1 13.1.1.1.2

            I can’t imagine Labour getting into coalition with Mana, not if the world was flooded with piss and Hone had the only waka.

      • blue leopard 13.1.2

        “”Are they enemies of the people? Will they be first up against the wall when the revolution comes?

        Nah, just when enough people come to their senses they will simply be seen for the dull, uninsightful regurgitaters of spin that they are and ignored …as they should have been all along.

    • kousei 13.2

      Michael Laws, Carl de fresne and bob Jones spring to mind in that vein. While one would defend their right to freedom of speech and opinion, still leaves me wondering why they are given such cosy little soapboxes to wax lyrical from when the quality of their comment in terms of adding something useful to a debate is so obviously poor.

      • BernyD 13.2.1

        Don’t mind Bob Jones, he strikes me as civilised , a man that’d listen.
        Dunno bout the others.

        • Populuxe1 13.2.1.1

          Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa The casual bigotries and assumptions of the rich do not automatically equate with “civilised”!

        • Morrissey 13.2.1.2

          You “dunno” about Bob Jones either, quite obviously.

          • BernyD 13.2.1.2.1

            Can only go by what I’ve read, admittedly not much to go on.

            • Morrissey 13.2.1.2.1.1

              Can only go by what I’ve read, admittedly not much to go on.

              Good Lord! What he’s written is as bad as his verbal statements. But dear old Graham Humphries on Radio Live thinks “Sir” Robert is a genius, so he has at least one fan.

              • felix

                Dear old Graham Humphries hasn’t had a coherent thought for about 15 years, at least not in the presence of a camera or a microphone.

                Very sad. He showed a lot of promise in the early days.

    • BernyD 13.3

      Usually a sign of an emotional reaction to previously spoken/written “Answers”.
      i.e a denial response, it may be well thought through, but their heart/direction is transparent otherwise the denial is unsatisfied and their heartbreaks(stops beating).
      One thing I should add is, I think because of editorial policies they have two articles prepared, a left and a right view, depending on eidtorial edict they cut and paste the final copy together.
      I say this because they were tending to start “Left” and then finish with 3+ paras of right wing justification, they’ve probably stopped this practise recently.

    • BernyD 13.4

      I’d suggest they need more civilised ground to stand on, which means all the people of Aotearoa.
      Try and stand in the shoes of someone without an education maybe …
      a civilised understanding and acceptance of their existence on earth and “Do no harm”.

  14. Bruno 32 14

    When the revolution comes ,all you whinging,lefty priks will need to get a real job. Your basically a bunch of losers with short dicks and no money.

  15. the sprout 15

    well said zet.

    unless they’re completely deluded, which is not out of the question, these journalists should be starting to get that berlin bunker feeling by now.

    • xtasy 15.1

      They don’t, because they, or their masters, actually “own” that bunker. So they get away with anything, and that is the sad state of affairs with the NZ media. It is “owned” by the “wrong” people!

      So maybe get the bunker busting mechanisms into place!?

  16. Georgecom 16

    One thing I wil say about Roughan is that he seems to have his knickers in a knot a wee bit regarding teachers taking on bad Government policy. The Campbell story attack may have stemmed from his dislike of the Government being challenged by the education sector, not a direct dislike of Campbell himself.

  17. xtasy 17

    OK -

    I put my voice to Roughan, have done so before, but give paul Holmes a break, in all respect, he had serious heart surgery, thanks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK3on2qnMeg&feature=autoplay&list=PLA6B6966F0528174B&playnext=2

    So move on and take the real nasty ones on, thank you! Sometimes you just need to be human.

    viva el pueblo!

    • lprent 17.1

      Many of us have. We are a society with a large number of nascent cyborgs with our stents, joint replacements and embedded Teflon.

      Doesn’t mean that we are right all the time or untouchable.

      Paul Holmes has mostly impressed me as being a bit of a lightweight in the thinking department and a clear indication in NZ media of the rise of the lowest common denominator. He is a great exponent of wrapping dumb bigotry and resentment in a bright cheery package. In other words – lousy talkback.

      • Jenny 17.1.1

        Here here, Lynn.

        Having just had a severe bout of hospitalisation myself. I can vouch for the wonderful human creation that is Socialised Medicine. As well as the clever stents and teflon inserts, the anesthetics, the antibiotics, the surgical techniques, the nursing science, the hygiene, the orderlies, the meals, the cleaning the ambos, the genuine human care of the people who run it all.

        It is such a complex system and it relies on many other complex systems. But at it’s heart it is human beings massively organised to help other human beings.

        Long may it continue.

    • Populuxe1 18.1

      Armed revolution is never the answer. Castro’s Cuba was only a paradise for the mentally addled living elsewhere.

      • Colonial Viper 18.1.1

        Much better child mortality rates, life expectancy and literacy outcomes than the USA. All this even with the USA’s punitive multi-generational economic sanctions.

        • Populuxe1 18.1.1.1

          Cling to your fiction if you must, but do cite your sources. Literacy is not much good if there are heavy restrictions on what you can read, and you might spare a thought for the gays, the Catholics and anyone who disagreed with the regime. That is not how a humane country behaves.

          • McFlock 18.1.1.1.1

            lol
                 
            Cuba decriminalised homosexuality before NZ did. 
            Cuba’s not perfect by any means, but your sudden concern for “the gays” seems a bit late.

            • Populuxe1 18.1.1.1.1.1

              I was talking about the entire period of the regime
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Cuba
              Perhaps you can explain why the Mariel boat lift (1980) took place the year after homosexuality was supposedly decriminalised? (1979)
               

              • McFlock

                Probably similar reasons for why when I was sharing an office with queer support workers ten years ago or so the police were still doing George Michael-style cottaging operations in local parks. Under “offensive behaviour” laws, of course, nothing to do with homosexuality…

                • Populuxe1

                  2002? In any case (1) I doubt anything very serious was going to happen to anyone nabbed, and (2) cruising public parks for sex (and I say this as a gay man myself) is fairly offensive and illegal, as any sex in a public place is.

                  • McFlock

                    Slightly more recent.
                    Fairly offensive to ask someone for sex and retire to a private area (toilets should be fairly private, no?).
                       
                    And it’s not like they were running similar ops against het couples doing the same thing of a Friday night. 

                    • Populuxe1

                      For the most part heterosexuals and most homosexuals know they have homes and motels to go and do that sort of thing in – I doubt there’s much police need. Toilets have only one legitimate purpose.
                       

                    • felix

                      For the most part heterosexuals and most homosexuals know they have homes and motels to go and do that sort of thing in “

                      Even-stevens then. So if homosexuals are targeted, there’s something seriously awry.

                    • Populuxe1

                      Context, Felix, context.
                      A fine for public nuisance or indecency is not quite the same as being rounded up by the hundred and being “lost” in a work camp or exiled by sea.

                    • felix

                      Goodo, harassing “the gays” doesn’t count either then.

                      Do you realise that it’s you who is ruling out your own arguments here?

                    • Populuxe1

                      Goodo, harassing “the gays” doesn’t count either then.
                      Do you realise that it’s you who is ruling out your own arguments here?

                       
                      Only if you’re the sort of person who thinks a puddle and the Pacific Ocean are the same thing because they are both wet.

          • Colonial Viper 18.1.1.1.2

            That is not how a humane country behaves.

            WTF planet are you on mate? Do you even know that the USA has over 3,000 of its citizens on death row right now?

            • Populuxe1 18.1.1.1.2.1

              I am presumably on a planet that does not assume one thinks the US is all that great either, but frankly I’d rather be at the mercy of the US legal system than the Cuban one.

              • Colonial Viper

                The US legal system kills people almost every week. It makes your claim to prefer to be at their “mercy” ironic, considering that Cuba no longer uses capital punishment.

                • Populuxe1

                  Don’t be a dick, CV – capital punishment is still on the books in Cuba – just because they’ve been commuting it since 2003 doesn’t mean the firing squads have gone away forever. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Cuba

                  • McFlock

                    As opposed to the US execution needles, which are running hot…

                    • Populuxe1

                      While I don’t condone capital punishment, I would point out that the vast majority of those executed were found guilty of homicide-related crimes, and the bulk of executions are confined to one or two wackjob southern states.

                    • McFlock

                      and the racial thing is purely coincidental

                    • Colonial Viper

                      I guess P1′s idea of what makes a humane and civilised country is pretty damn flexible. A government can execute citizens if they, like, really really deserve it, for instance.

              • Vicky32

                but frankly I’d rather be at the mercy of the US legal system than the Cuban one.

                Oh dear, you do seem to be rather naive!

                • Populuxe1

                  …says she who believes in Bronze Age myths about invisible beardy weirdy sky fairies.

                  • Vicky32

                    Bronze Age myths about invisible …

                    Irrelevant ad hominem… is that the best you’ve got? Sad.

                • Morrissey

                  Oh dear, you do seem to be rather naive!

                  Vicky, do you think this poor fellow (Populuxe) thinks that illegal torture camp at Guantanamo is run by the Cuban government?

                  • Vicky32

                    do you think this poor fellow (Populuxe)

                    That’s scarily possible, Morrissey! :D

                  • Populuxe1

                    Actually I don’t, and I think it should be shut down immediately, but we were talking domestic, not foreign policy.

              • Morrissey

                frankly I’d rather be at the mercy of the US legal system than the Cuban one.

                And what exactly do YOU know about the Cuban legal system?

                • Populuxe1

                  Well Morrissey, there’s this thing called research. I have access to a large university library and then there’s this crazy new invention called the “Internet” that all the kids are raving about. Also I know a few Cubans (admittedly expats, but there are reasons for that) and speak Spanish. But what would I know, eh? It would be so much easier to pontificate out of my arse like a lot of commentators on here.

                  • Morrissey

                    But what would I know, eh?

                    On what I’ve seen of you, you would know very little about anything.

                    • Populuxe1

                      Oh noes! Someone snaked at me tit-for-tat on the Internet because I hold a different opinion to them and they haven’t got anything else relevant to say. Mercy me! Waaaaaaah! :D

                    • Populuxe1

                      Morrisey, I’m glib (which is hardly unusual on here) because some of the opinions on here are so extreme as to be impossible to take seriously (defending Castro for any reason is just such an instance), and I at least take the trouble to cite references for the more challenging opinions I hold as a courtesy, whereas all too often the common reaction on here is that anything contrary to capitalism, the United States, or the National Party, must somehow be a good thing. It ain’t necessarily so, but the casuistry attempted to justify it is often amusing.
                       

                  • felix

                    Well you probably know a fair bit then.

                    As long as you stay away from the topics of incarceration, capital punishment, education, health, and government torture camps.

                    According to the thread so far, anyway.

                    • Morrissey

                      Oh noes! Someone snaked at me tit-for-tat on the Internet because I hold a different opinion to them

                      Errr, not quite. People “snake” at you not because you hold a different opinion, but because you are glib and ignorant.

                      and they haven’t got anything else relevant to say.

                      Again, you’re way off.

                    • Populuxe1

                      Well you can’t be Debra Evanson, because she’s dead, so unless you are Pedro Freyre of Columbia University’s law department, or David Abraham or the school of law at Miami University, or similar authority on Cuban law, I doubt you are in any position to judge.

                    • Jokerman

                      heehee

                    • felix

                      I’m judging solely on your own admissions in this very thread, Pop.

                      For instance according to what you yourself has said, torture camps don’t count against a country’s human rights record if they’re illegally sited on militarily occupied ground in another country, capital punishment doesn’t count against a country’s human rights record if it only occurs in half of the jurisdictions in the country.

                      I’m quite confident of my qualification to judge you on the basis of those cretinous, evasive, weasely statements, thanks.

                    • Populuxe1

                      For instance according to what you yourself has said, torture camps don’t count against a country’s human rights record if they’re illegally sited on militarily occupied ground in another country, capital punishment doesn’t count against a country’s human rights record if it only occurs in half of the jurisdictions in the country.
                      I’m quite confident of my qualification to judge you on the basis of those cretinous, evasive, weasely statements, thanks.

                       
                      Felix, if you can get that from me saying that I think it should be closed down immediately, I can only assume you are insane or smoking P.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      While I don’t condone capital punishment, I would point out that the vast majority of those executed were found guilty of homicide-related crimes, and the bulk of executions are confined to one or two wackjob southern states.

                      Felix read you right. Sounds like you’re condoning capital punishment to me too mate.

                    • Populuxe1

                      @ CV

                      Sounds like you’re condoning capital punishment to me mate.

                      No – I was making the point they weren’t political prisoners.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      So you were simply condoning the death penalty for murderers and for the Southern States, but not political prisoners. Right-O.

                      At least Cuba is humane and civilised enough not to have a justice system which routinely murders its own citizens.

                    • Populuxe1

                      @CV

                      So you were simply condoning the death penalty for murderers and for the Southern States, but not political prisoners. Right-O.

                       
                      To quote you, CV: “whatever.”
                       

                      At least Cuba is humane and civilised enough not to have a justice system which routinely murders its own citizens.

                       
                      No, they just let the horrific conditions of their prisons and medical neglect do it for them..

          • xtasy 18.1.1.1.3

            Just another, more modern version for your own personal pleasure, dear matey and comrade:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=N2o83FQ1xTs&feature=endscreen

            It is getting better all the time! Viva!

            • Morrissey 18.1.1.1.3.1

              Morrisey, I’m glib (which is hardly unusual on here) because some of the opinions on here are so extreme as to be impossible to take seriously (defending Castro for any reason is just such an instance), and I at least take the trouble to cite references for the more challenging opinions I hold as a courtesy

              Sorry, my friend, I was overheated and recklessly quick with the rejoinders. I can see you’re not as foolish or as thoughtless as I said you were. I’ll try to be calmer in future when I see your contributions.

          • Draco T Bastard 18.1.1.1.4

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Cuba
            Child Mortality (XLS) seems to be comparable to NZ
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

            37 Cuba 78.3 76.2 80.4
            38 United States 78.2 75.6 80.8

            Certainly not the most perfect place in the world but not quite as bad as the USians would have us believe.

            • Populuxe1 18.1.1.1.4.1

              Nor much better – which is my point.

              • Colonial Viper

                A tiny blockaded nation doing better than the world’s one remaining hyperpower. Oh you are hard to please.

                • Populuxe1

                  You can gloat when Cuba has it’s first free election.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    FFS. You can gloat when the US manages a Presidential or congressional one which isn’t a sham.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Cuba: Electoral System

                    Elections in Cuba have two phases:

                    election of delegates to the Municipal Assembly, and
                    election of deputies to the Provincial and National Assemblies.

                    Candidates for municipal assemblies are nominated on an individual basis at local levels by the local population at nomination assemblies.[6] Candidates for provincial assemblies and the National Assembly are nominated by the municipal assemblies from lists compiled by national, provincial and municipal candidacy commissions.[6] Anyone older than 16 other than those mentally incapacitated, imprisoned, or deprived of their political rights can vote and be nominated to these posts.

                    Sounds reasonably free to me.

                    Article 88(h) of the Cuban constitution, adopted in 1976, provides for citizen proposals of law, prerequisite that the proposal be made by at least 10 000 citizens who are eligible to vote.

                    Might even be more democratic than the representative democracies that we’re used to.

                    • Populuxe1

                      Riiiiight. And that chap in charge… The one who makes all the decisions… El Presidente for life…. What’s his name…. Oh, that’s right, FIDEL FRACKING CASTRO! Except he’s frail, so the VP, HIS FRACKING BROTHER is running things. That’s perfectly democratic then. We should immediately adopt the same system.

                    • weka

                      Yes, because the US for instance would never have family stepping in to do something like ‘influence’ an election.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      P1′s got a real bee in his bonnet about that tiny small country. I wonder why.

                    • Populuxe1

                      P1′s got a real bee in his bonnet about that tiny small country. I wonder why.

                       
                      Probably because I am utterly flummoxed as to how an apparently thinking person can be so ideologically blinkered as to get all warm and fuzzy about a dictatorship with a diabolical human rights record.
                      Are you going to accuse me of being a CIA plant again? That was fun.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      well you definitely have the anti-Castro bee in your bonnet. Let it go mate, Bay of Pigs was a long time ago.

                      For all your concern about humane, civilised countries and humane, civilised justice systems you sure pick funny role models.

                    • Populuxe1

                      well you definitely have the anti-Castro bee in your bonnet. Let it go mate, Bay of Pigs was a long time ago.
                      For all your concern about humane, civilised countries and humane, civilised justice systems you sure pick funny role models.

                      FFS! You would have to be mad to advocate the US as a role model! I know you’re not very good with logic, or the real world (seeing as you like to delude yourself that I am some CIA spy, a nostalgic pro-Batista hack, or something equally romantic) – however the US is a democracy, a flawed democracy overrun with capitalist greed, but still a democracy. I oppose any and all dictatorships, and you are a sad dick. Why don’t you do something useful and read:
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba
                      https://www.hrw.org/americas/cuba
                      http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/countries/americas/cuba
                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thor-halvorssen/testimony-at-the-united-n_b_1635544.html
                      http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/wha/154501.htm

      • xtasy 18.1.2

        Food is there, health care and education, denied many in USA, dictated by wealth factors, even worse in much of latin america, I know what I am talking about, mate! Cuba surely is lacking and no paradise, but it was the sabotage by the western, supposedly “free enterprise” economies that were happy to see “the wall” come down in Europe and elsewhere, but what have they replaced to societies there with?

        They were malfunctioning, but now rich and poor divide is the worst it has ever been in those countries, what a bloody achievement. Add corruption, bankruptcy and more, so what has your fucked, favoured system achieve “pupuluxurious” mood and mindset?

        • Populuxe1 18.1.2.1

          Suck my balls. US (not the rest of the west actually) embargoes have little to do with Cuba’s shit human rights record
          http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/cuba

          • xtasy 18.1.2.1.1

            How many on death row in the US by any chance?

            • Colonial Viper 18.1.2.1.1.1

              Ask P1 how many people the USA has executed in its justice system in the last 10 years, compared to Cuba. And how many foreigners the USA has summarily executed with drone attacks over the last 10 years. Judge jury and executioner with no right of defence nor appeal.

              How’s that for a human rights record?

              • Populuxe1

                Would you like me to compare it on a per capita with how many Cubans got sent for “re-education” in work camps for such crimes as disagreeing with the regime or trying to leave?

                • Colonial Viper

                  Sure. But that’s incarceration and forced labour you are talking about (which the US does too btw). Not sanctioned killing of dozens of your own citizens a year like the US does. Like you prefer.

                  • Populuxe1

                    First of all you are generalising about the whole US – it’s a federation of states and quite a few of those states don’t have death penalties: Alaska, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine,
                    Michigan, Minnesota, New Jersey, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Mexico, and the District of Columbia don’t have death penalties. The overwhelming majority of those executed were charged homicide-related crime. I think comparisons are a bit of a stretch. I don’t condone capital punishment, I think there are outrageous abuses in Arizona and Texas and I don’t think they should be executing the mentally retarded, but it is all done within the rule of law.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      but it is all done within the rule of law.

                      LOL. At least Cuba has a civilised enough legal systen not to kill its own citizens.

          • xtasy 18.1.2.1.2

            Don’t like “balls”, so I won’t oblige!

      • xtasy 18.1.3

        You live the Batista kind of rule do ya? Casinos, prostitution, slavery and beggars in the streets, right, that is where NZ will perhaps end with another casino operator friend like Key! We are already seeing the first signs of it. F that kind of shit society. We should deport all wealth travellers that do not commit to invest for longer term and the future here, get rid of bludgers of the wrong kind, Id say.

        • Populuxe1 18.1.3.1

          Are you really that stupid?
          Batista is a horrible corrupt shit =/= Castro is a misjudged saint.
          Yes, lets attack the tourists – how important is that to our economy again?
          Fuck you are a moron.

  18. xtasy 19

    Natalie Cardone sings about “par platar de bandeira”, I wonder is this legal or not here in NZ? It is where I come from. So maybe ask how “free” NZ really is. I have some worries and concerns. I see this video solely in a “historic” and “cultural” context, that must at least be as acceptable as the “anti Mohammed” video going around:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=SSRVtlTwFs8&list=PLA6B6966F0528174B

    • Populuxe1 19.1

      Don’t be an arse – you can say whatever you like provided you are not inciting hatred or trying to provoke violence.  Why don’t you ask someone who lived in a police state how free New Zealand is?

      • xtasy 19.1.1

        NZ is “free”? Hah, what a joke that is! Free for freeloaders, money speculators, ruthless investors syphoning off profits with no regard, not committing themselves for living here and actually doing the work that is needed to get a country going. F Off, I come from a country where revolution is part of history, where also people dedicate t o work and share, and where progressive ideas are the norm. That is not your country’s goal, as too many idiots vote in bastards that just suck the blood of the country and have no bloody plan, like John f ing Key no hoper, what a hopeless country this has become under that rule!

      • xtasy 19.1.2

        Before your rant will get out of hand: I will NOT disclose my native heritage, as that will only be an invitation for your continued racist and class rant, which I resolutely deny you as a conscientious human being seeking equal and fair rights to all, whatever colour, race, religion and more. So I am sorry, I am going to frustrate from the very outset your already detectable attempts of an attack on me and others. Populuxe, sometimes you contribute, although rarely, but you have to learn the fair play of the game, thank you and have a very good night. I believe in a fair, social and progressive society, that may not be Cuban style, but at least is social democratic. So we split on that term. Good night.

        • Populuxe1 19.1.2.1

          Before your rant will get out of hand: I will NOT disclose my native heritage, as that will only be an invitation for your continued racist and class rant, which I resolutely deny you as a conscientious human being seeking equal and fair rights to all, whatever colour, race, religion and more.

          Then you are in no position to criticise my country’s freedoms because obviously you are so insecure about those of wherever you’re from that you refuce to disclose your country of origin. My psychic senses suggest Venezuela for some reason. Ethnicity has very little to do with governance (hello Nazi Germany!), so you can shove the racism accusation.

          So I am sorry, I am going to frustrate from the very outset your already detectable attempts of an attack on me and others. Populuxe, sometimes you contribute, although rarely, but you have to learn the fair play of the game, thank you and have a very good night. I believe in a fair, social and progressive society, that may not be Cuban style, but at least is social democratic. So we split on that term. Good night.

          Fair play does not, ipso facto, mean that I have to be patient when people spout nonsense or misinformation. The right to loudly tell people they are talking crap is part of our national heritage as a democracy with the freedom of speech.

          • xtasy 19.1.2.1.1

            Popaluxurius: I enjoy your rants every time, they are really entertaining, never letting me down, so get on with it, have a great time and indulge in whatever you wish to entertain yourself with.

            I love NZ for some reasons, but I also reserve my right as a logn term resident to be critical, thank you so much.

          • xtasy 19.1.2.1.2

            Hahaha, I leave you guessing then, so Venezolano, for that sake?

  19. xtasy 20

    Populoxe and others, Latin America is a musical treasure land, and when you rubbish Cuba, that is just one cheap crap shot at a region with immense cultural and other significance. There is more bloody cultural activity there than ever happened in Aoteaoroa NZ for the las 200 years, I am afraid.

    I suggest just a brief impression on some common popular music clips covering music of the last two decades or so:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppdpae0EWDU&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmK9GylXRh0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB6Cpy-X7A8&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkzwNOTkGOs&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dhn5zUjR-0&feature=related

    This is a scratch on the bloody surface, as you seem to think anglo saxon cuture rules the bloody world. You are misled. You are now the bloody MINORITY in culural affairs on the planet. Wake up to reality, thanks. We welcome you!

    • Populuxe1 20.1

      (1) I have nothing against Latin America, it’s a vibrant place rich in culture and full of lovely wonderful people. In terms of governance, however, it leaves much to be desired.
      (2) Trying to insult my country’s heritage really does you no credit. I would point out that Maori arrived in New Zealand in around 1300 CE and that the European settlers brought their own fully developed cultures with them, which formed the basis of Pakeha culture – and quite frankly it’s pretty rich and interesting and has produced individuals of world significance.
      (3) For much of its history from the late nineteenth to the mid-twentieth century, New Zealand was the widely admired model of liberal social reform for the world. We know what we’ve lost, however we had it in the first place and can hopefully construct it again. New Zealand has also lacked for dictators and military juntas. I don’t think on either point Latin America can compare.

      • xtasy 20.1.1

        It is an insult to Maori and Polynesian people to be told that they did not arrive before 13 hundred AC or so in this country, as the earlier traces go back to at leat 400 AC.

        Also is it now proved that NZ was largely populated through eastern polynesia, which was having contact to high civilisations in South and Central America well before Christ was ever born or accounted for. So stick your Anglo Saxon and Euro Centric cultural obsession up where the sun never shines, because you have no idea how diverse and long other cultures have ever existed. Easter Island, Marquesan Islands, Society Islands, Cook Islands and so forth, resembling great similarities to ancient cultures in South America by the way. Only brainwashed, selective culturalists ignore realities proved decades ago by Thor Heyerdahl and also other scientists, even genetic evidence exists. Where do Kumara, Umu and the like come from? The same words and products have 2 to 3 thousand year history in South America, dear Pupucapetl wannabe never gettabe. Learn history please.

        • Populuxe1 20.1.1.1

          You really are a sad little person. Polynesians arrived in New Zealand in waves, but permanent habitation by the group that came to be Maori dates to around 1300, give or take a century.
          http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/12/22/1015876108.full.pdf+html
          Where did you get the impression I didn’t agree with elements of Heyerdahl’s hypothesis, you silly little person, contact between Polynesia and South America been proved by genetic testing, however his theory that Polynesians came from South America is crap as the linguistic evidence shows that Pacific migration came from east to west.
          Do you have a point, or are you just an annoying idiot?

      • xtasy 20.1.2

        Populuxe1: I really like you, just for the sake of adding spice to this forum! That is great at all times, we need it, want it and are never shy of it, right!

        Get a life and be a bit more kind to others, because hate and envy is the worst of enemies.

        I am sure we can all learn from each other, provided “we” want to!

  20. Carol 21

    And this morning Bomber has a go at Roughan too:

    http://www.tumeke.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/first-nz-herald-came-for-bloggers-then.html

    First the NZ Herald came for the bloggers, then they came for John Campbell.

    With their relaunch as a tabloid butterfly, the neo-liberal opinion shapers at the NZ Herald which Gordon Campbell refers to in his brilliant and must read take down of John Armstrong’s criticism of bloggers, have sharpened their attacks on those Society see as providing an alternative narrative to the Planet Key fantasy the NZ Herald subscribes to.

    What planet does John Roughan live on? Oh, that’s right. Planet Key.

    What is occurring in Christchurch is nothing short of a political coup. The drum beat to sell city assets, the taking of democracy from Environment Canterbury, Charter Schools and the enforced rebuild with minimum community input combine with this latest slap in the face over school closures.

    Note it wasn’t the Government’s inept manner of ‘consultation’ that’s the problem. It’s not the Government’s inept Hekia Parata screwing up another education announcement. It’s not a communication strategy that has ended up spreading public panic.

    Oh no, it’s none of those things. It’s that bloody John Campbell and his one sided television.

    When the newspaper of choice for conservative kneejerks and beige bigots starts publicly hunting the bloggers and the few journalists prepared to critique the Planet Key narrative, you know there is a PR struggle going on for the hearts and minds of NZers.

    I like the way Bomber most often presents a sound analysis using colourful turns of phrase…. although I don’t always agree with him…. just mostly.

    But, it’s rationale, Bomber, not rational

    • Jokerman 21.1

      great post Carol ta.
      Christchurch-the NZ lab rat for disaster and/or anarcho capitalism
      liquifaction-the gift that keeps on giving

  21. Suzanne 22

    Apropos Fran O’Sullivan: I just checked out that link and frankly, I don’t see a “fascist call that The Standard authors should lose their jobs”. What I DO see is a discussion of anonymity, especially when it’s used by people making personal attacks.

    OK, the woman doesn’t like a lot of what is said on this site and she sure doesn’t like some of the personal stuff, but that doesn’t make her a fascist any more than contributing to this site makes any of us similar to the KK (a comparison she was called on by on of her respondents).

    • RedLogix 22.1

      Read it again. She makes it quite clear she’d like various authors here ‘outed’ and if that was to have bad consequences for them …”tough”. Slightly different phrasing but the same essential meaning.

      Besides ask yourself this. What possible reason would she have to know who we are? And would any of those reasons be good ones?

      • Colonial Viper 22.1.1

        She’s offering all of us a chance to win a holiday cruise. Just email your name and address to her.

        • BernyD 22.1.1.1

          You’ll be cruising on your own M8!
          Give me cash refund option and ya can have mine M8
          I’m a sick, semi retired cat that could use cash M8
          It’s just a blog M8!
          Sweet M8! :-)

          • BernyD 22.1.1.1.1

            I take it back, that’s gonna be an expensive cruize M8!
            How many aliases per week can this site handle?.
            Free cruize up for grabs people, sign onto the Standard and make some dumb arse comment M8!

  22. captain hook 23

    heyerdahl is an idiot and anyone who beleives what heyerdahl says is an idiot too.
    as for fran sullivan she is another idiot.
    she has never made any real contribution to new zealand.
    she has just sat there and carped and ciriticised and specilaised in backbiting.
    the question is who does she think she is?

  23. Rich 24

    Surprised Cam Slater hasn’t lost his job. Oh, wait…

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